Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you
Speaker 1: we have a new star.
Speaker 2: A star is born Elon mars Juthan Kennemy.
Speaker 3: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 1: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
Speaker 1: I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight
Speaker 1: percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent
Speaker 1: that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four post.
Speaker 1: We were meant for great things in the United States
Speaker 1: of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't
Speaker 1: have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday,
Speaker 1: June third. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. So Elon got
Speaker 1: his farewell from the President last week. Today it's about
Speaker 1: a man named Elon and he's one of the greatest
Speaker 1: business leaders and innovators the world has ever produced. And
Speaker 1: he is now sort of kind of back with his
Speaker 1: company's twenty four to seven so right on c Reports
Speaker 1: emerged of him raising billions of dollars from investors, making
Speaker 1: babies and apparently, according to the New York Times doing
Speaker 1: Lots and lots of drugs. To talk about Elon's big
Speaker 1: week back in business. I'm sitting here with two of
Speaker 1: our stalwarts, Sarah Friar, team leader for Big Tech coverge
Speaker 1: here at Bloomberg Sarah, Hello, Hello, And Max Chafkin BusinessWeek
Speaker 1: superstar Max.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hey, David, Hey Sarah.
Speaker 1: Max. I saw the other day that your Mets are
Speaker 1: winning baseball games.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm so happy.
Speaker 1: That explains a smile.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're They're looking great.
Speaker 1: Okay, nice, And you know, Elon may be leaving DC
Speaker 1: behind Max, but the story keeps following him. Just one
Speaker 1: day after that big sendoff in the Oval Office, Trump
Speaker 1: abruptly pulled the NASA nomination. A Musk business associate and
Speaker 1: close allied, Jared Isaacman to me, it is exhibit a
Speaker 1: of the defeat of Elon Musk and Washington and illustrates
Speaker 1: the greatly diminished state he's left it in. I suspect
Speaker 1: I will get some pushback on this point though, from
Speaker 1: Max and Sarah. We'll start, though, with the drug allegations,
Speaker 1: the money and the babies. Max. The New York Times
Speaker 1: splashed a big report last week on Elon's drug use,
Speaker 1: including ketamine. Give us some of the details.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say Elon Musk has now denied
Speaker 2: this report.
Speaker 1: Denied it repeatedly, repeatedly.
Speaker 2: I think he said the Times is making stuff up.
Speaker 2: The Times that stood by it. The report gives you
Speaker 2: a portrait essentially of Musk's behavior over the last year
Speaker 2: and connects it to what sources are describing to The
Speaker 2: Times as fairly extensive drug use.
Speaker 3: Now, we of course knew.
Speaker 2: That Elon Musk has smoked pot. We know that he's
Speaker 2: used ketamine.
Speaker 1: The I mean, he's admitted to the ketamine use in
Speaker 1: the past.
Speaker 3: Yerescribed I think anyone.
Speaker 2: They are parts of this report suggesting, for instance, he'd
Speaker 2: use some party drugs on various occasions that I don't
Speaker 2: think was super surprising. But the most significant thing in
Speaker 2: this story on drug use is that Elon Musk was
Speaker 2: telling associates that he had what sounds like a was
Speaker 2: using ketamine pretty heavily, and that he was using, in
Speaker 2: fact so heavily that he was experiencing some side effects,
Speaker 2: including bladder proms, which is one of the one of
Speaker 2: the common side effects from ketamine use. So that was
Speaker 2: in the story But then the other thing that is
Speaker 2: maybe more troubling was sort of a suggestion that his
Speaker 2: behavior that he was sort of using ketamine, using these
Speaker 2: drugs all trying to run his companies while trying to
Speaker 2: run the US government, and that he was impaired. And
Speaker 2: I'd say in that way, it was kind of the
Speaker 2: most serious allegations that we've seen about his drug use
Speaker 2: to date.
Speaker 4: That said, there was not like, I don't know if
Speaker 4: I missed it in the story, but there was not
Speaker 4: like a specific instance of you know, we know Musk
Speaker 4: was on drugs when he did this thing.
Speaker 1: That's correct, Sarah, You are right. I mean, there's at
Speaker 1: some point they put, you know, a couple of things
Speaker 1: side by side, the drug use next to his odd
Speaker 1: behavior at that campaign event in Pennsylvania, which he was
Speaker 1: jumping around on stage, But at no point, you are right,
Speaker 1: do they say in the story that he was acting
Speaker 1: this way on this day because of drugs.
Speaker 2: It's a portrait of a guy who seems to the
Speaker 2: outside world to be out of control in a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of ways, with reporting that suggests that the same
Speaker 2: time he was behaving erratically, he was talking to people.
Speaker 3: About using drugs. Fairly heavily.
Speaker 2: Now we should say a lot of the these drugs
Speaker 2: in the Time story are not illegal drugs, right Ketamine
Speaker 2: Musk has said he's using under a prescription. Now, of
Speaker 2: course you could have a prescription from ketamine and still
Speaker 2: be abusing it. The Times mentions this daily pill box
Speaker 2: containing some adderall. Now, of course a lot of people
Speaker 2: take adderall to manage you know, adult ADHD or whatever.
Speaker 2: So so none of this on its own, I think
Speaker 2: would be that concerning if you're like an investor or
Speaker 2: even a close friend of Elon Musk. But it's the
Speaker 2: kind of just juxtaposition that that Sarah's bringing up that raises.
Speaker 1: Question, And I think the piece says that there was
Speaker 1: at some point this blurry line between what was medically
Speaker 1: prescribed and what was just recreational use.
Speaker 4: There was one one other note in the story that
Speaker 4: I found really interesting, which is that SpaceX, as a
Speaker 4: government contractor, has to run a drug free workplace, and
Speaker 4: there was sourcing in the story that Musk is getting
Speaker 4: heads up on those drug tests before they happen so
Speaker 4: that he can more easily pass them. So that was
Speaker 4: another detail besides the bladder detail. The twenty pills in
Speaker 4: the pillbox detail that built a picture of ways in
Speaker 4: which this is becoming more routine for him, more integrated
Speaker 4: with his every day and like well known to his associates.
Speaker 1: I just want to say on that point, the Times
Speaker 1: did reach out to SpaceX and SpaceX did not respond.
Speaker 1: When are the Times seeking comment?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I guess the other thing there is that fact
Speaker 2: is important because Musk has repeatedly said that he's, you know,
Speaker 2: drug tested continuously. He's tested clean continuously.
Speaker 4: And Kristin grind who who authored this one of the
Speaker 4: authors on this story. She also wrote the book on
Speaker 4: Tony Shea, who, as as is well known now died
Speaker 4: of an overdose and her book goes deeply into the
Speaker 4: history of ketamine abuse by that CEO of zaz And
Speaker 4: and his escalation into other drugs and how it how
Speaker 4: it changed thinking and and so one thing I've learned
Speaker 4: from from that is the side effects include a lot
Speaker 4: of amnesia, a lot of of distortion of reality, a
Speaker 4: lot of confusion over what has happened, a lot of
Speaker 4: paranoia is common in ketamine abuse. So I think that
Speaker 4: that maybe why there was a lot of juxtaposition with
Speaker 4: with scenes in this story of Musk, you know, either
Speaker 4: attacking people or concerned about his companies, or having different
Speaker 4: versions of the same reality. And I think the most
Speaker 4: striking thing to me that was news to me I
Speaker 4: didn't I didn't hear about with Tony say, but the
Speaker 4: bladder issues just seem so painful. And what I was
Speaker 4: reading the medical literature on that looks like irreversible if
Speaker 4: it gets to that point.
Speaker 1: No, irreversible doesn't sound good.
Speaker 2: There was a whole other dimension in this story that
Speaker 2: that kind of pertains to this because it's again sort
Speaker 2: of more behavior that seems kind of erratic. And it
Speaker 2: was about Elon Musk's love life, right, about Musk saying
Speaker 2: different things to different women.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So Grimes believe for a time that she was in
Speaker 2: a monogamous relationship with Elon Musk.
Speaker 1: Mistake.
Speaker 2: Ashley Sinclair also believed that she was in a monogamous
Speaker 2: relationship with Elon Musk. According to her, we also got
Speaker 2: some detail on the terms of the settlement.
Speaker 1: At It was a lot of money her in order
Speaker 1: to keep it sifteen million dollars up front and one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars per month. According to documents that the
Speaker 1: time says it saw and Ashley Saint Clair said, nograsias,
Speaker 1: and she said, I will no, I will see you.
Speaker 1: I believe in court. They are in court now.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one thing, I mean, look, this is kind of
Speaker 2: a side alley or whatever. Maybe this is not the
Speaker 2: most important thing in this story, but it really did
Speaker 2: raise a question of how sincere he is in his
Speaker 2: pro natalism versus is he just sort of out of control?
Speaker 1: And so maybe some combo of the two, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some combo of the two, right, because it is
Speaker 2: not a portrait of somebody who is fully in control.
Speaker 2: I will say there is a potential number fifteen in
Speaker 2: this story, Sinclair saying that he told her that he
Speaker 2: had fathered children all over the world, including one with
Speaker 2: a Japanese FLT star, which would be a new baby,
Speaker 2: and that.
Speaker 1: Apparently he was or is just offering his sperm to
Speaker 1: any woman out there that we knew. I thought we did.
Speaker 4: I missed that in the journal story. I was in
Speaker 4: there sperm to somebody via direct message.
Speaker 1: I guess I suppose I had blocked that out of
Speaker 1: my mind.
Speaker 2: Now I went on a little bit of a rabbit
Speaker 2: hole trying to find the Japanese pop star to see
Speaker 2: if this had indeed happened.
Speaker 1: Are there any did you fly to Tokyo for this?
Speaker 3: No, this happened on the internet, but I.
Speaker 2: Was not able to Finally, we should treat this as
Speaker 2: an unconfirmed report until we received further confirmation.
Speaker 1: Got it?
Speaker 3: I wrote.
Speaker 1: The last thing on this subject I will note is
Speaker 1: The Times. Both in the story and then in their
Speaker 1: podcast in which they talked about it, they kept using
Speaker 1: the term brood, which a brood of kids, which to me,
Speaker 1: I mean usually broods like an animals. And I don't
Speaker 1: know that it was just struck me as odd. Max.
Speaker 1: I guess they suppose they figured once you get to
Speaker 1: a certain number, it's no longer just a conventional family
Speaker 1: of this now.
Speaker 2: When you there just isn't a lot of precedent for
Speaker 2: having this many children, Like I think it's hard to
Speaker 2: come up with. I don't know that we have a
Speaker 2: term for a large amount of human children this low.
Speaker 3: You know, this big was so apparently not. I think
Speaker 3: The Times is you know, working, but.
Speaker 1: They have Sarah Fryar other things that happened in the
Speaker 1: last past few days. Elon Musk is raising a lot
Speaker 1: of money. It would seem tell us about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a few things are happening at once. Let
Speaker 4: me pull up my list here. So there is the
Speaker 4: five billion that he wants for Xai.
Speaker 1: There is, by the way, five billion, to be clear,
Speaker 1: five billion via the debt market, not in.
Speaker 3: Ex the debt market exactly.
Speaker 4: So that's debt for Xai, which is a which is
Speaker 4: part of Xai Holdings, which is simultaneously in discussions to
Speaker 4: raise twenty billion in equity. And then he separately had
Speaker 4: a raise for Neuralink, his brain technology company. That that
Speaker 4: was the six hundred and fifty million round. And he's also,
Speaker 4: according to the Financial Time, selling three hundred million in
Speaker 4: Xai stock through a secondary offering. So lots of lots
Speaker 4: of capital raises happening at once for his companies. Maybe
Speaker 4: trying to make the most of this return to his
Speaker 4: corporate life in what he says will be a full
Speaker 4: time manner and realizing that these companies that he needs
Speaker 4: more money to do the things he wants to do.
Speaker 2: Important to differentiate between what has been announced, which is
Speaker 2: the right and these Xai numbers, which according to.
Speaker 1: The reports are still in marketing stage.
Speaker 3: They're they're just asking for it.
Speaker 1: So like yeah, like you're asking for.
Speaker 2: It also like five billion dollars, but it doesn't necessarily mean.
Speaker 1: That I'm going to can I tell you something? Though
Speaker 1: much more likely to do usive billion than Max Schafflin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll give you now when you.
Speaker 3: Dang GPUs do you need that so many?
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you dangle an interest rate of over ten
Speaker 1: percent on the debt, that certainly helps. And apparently the
Speaker 1: interest rate they're offering you somewhere around twelve Morgan Stanley
Speaker 1: time bank to mister Musk is handling the deal. I
Speaker 1: will say, Max, you know, it's funny because Morgan Stanley
Speaker 1: the other banks just finally finally got that godfor's sake,
Speaker 1: and Twitter dead off its books. Twitter now of course
Speaker 1: x which is now of course part of Xai. And
Speaker 1: as soon as they finally managed to get it off
Speaker 1: their books after they were nursing it forever and couldn't
Speaker 1: pawn it off on anybody, bang, we hit the market
Speaker 1: with another five billion.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, if you're a banker, working with Elon
Speaker 2: Musk is a good bet, even if you're not necessarily
Speaker 2: crazy about any particular deal.
Speaker 3: Like he's got a lot of private equity to sell.
Speaker 1: All right, Max. Last thing in this space another deal
Speaker 1: that happened or almost happened, kind of happened then didn't happen,
Speaker 1: is Groc and Telegram. This is the.
Speaker 3: Second one of these.
Speaker 2: So the Telegram CEO tweeted or East or whatever about
Speaker 2: a big deal with Groc that they were going to
Speaker 2: integrate Grock into into Telegram or something, and a bunch
Speaker 2: of news outlets wrote about it.
Speaker 3: This is pretty similar to the story we.
Speaker 2: Talked about two weeks ago about Calshi announcing a deal
Speaker 2: and then Elon Musk showed up on Twitter and said
Speaker 2: no deal has been signed. This kind of like weird
Speaker 2: public feuding with a potential partner. This is a potentially
Speaker 2: a large deal now. Look, Telegram, unlike Calshi, is a
Speaker 2: very controversial business. The founder, Pavel d'urrov I believe, is
Speaker 2: not an uncomplicated guy. There are regulators around the world
Speaker 2: who have problems with the way Telegram handles like illegal
Speaker 2: content in going through its service. Look, we don't know
Speaker 2: the backstory, so who knows, But like, looking at this
Speaker 2: report in light of what we read in the Times.
Speaker 3: Like it just it does seem it seems odd right.
Speaker 4: Well, also just for us to reply publicly on X
Speaker 4: saying nothing is signed, and then for Pavel d'ov to
Speaker 4: reply to that saying, correct, we're just in late stage
Speaker 4: discussions Like those weren't his exact words, but he was
Speaker 4: like trying to keep the relationship it proceeding ahead with
Speaker 4: a steal, as opposed to taking Musk's very pointed statement
Speaker 4: that nothing was happening.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I think is going on here.
Speaker 2: Please do But and this is just speculation, but you know,
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, that's what this show is.
Speaker 3: Max, He's a famous I got it, you know.
Speaker 2: Just remember he's a famously hands on ceo his empire,
Speaker 2: especially now, especially with his kind of political engagement, which
Speaker 2: continues even with this White House event, and he's running
Speaker 2: more companies than he's ever run. Like, I think it's
Speaker 2: just gotten harder for all of these companies, especially these startups.
Speaker 2: You know, Grok is sort of like a startup to operate,
Speaker 2: they need Elon musk sign off for everything. And and
Speaker 2: my supposition is some of these deals that are being
Speaker 2: announced have been announced without.
Speaker 1: The underlings are getting out over their skis anything you
Speaker 1: didn't consult with the doge father first?
Speaker 4: Exactly right, okay, or he made the deals and he's
Speaker 4: forgetting possible as well.
Speaker 1: Possible does father the dose father, like all fathers, tend
Speaker 1: to forget a lot of that they do. And say,
Speaker 1: moving back to Washington for a second, Max, because over
Speaker 1: the weekend, just when you think Elon is leaving Washington
Speaker 1: and he's closing that chapter of his life, bang, big
Speaker 1: explosion reports start coming out. I believe it was initially
Speaker 1: reported anonymously with sources, then confirmed by the White House
Speaker 1: Trump truth that did it start with the truth.
Speaker 3: There was a reporter Trump on Saturday.
Speaker 1: That Musk Skuy Jared Isaac Man, close business associate has
Speaker 1: been up in SpaceX, you know, traveling across across space.
Speaker 1: Someone who's in put a lot of money into SpaceX.
Speaker 1: I believe, was suddenly out as Trump's pick to lead NASA.
Speaker 1: That's quite a parting gift, Max, on your way out
Speaker 1: the door.
Speaker 3: Well, it's not a parting gift.
Speaker 2: Like to stop this, Like, first of all, Trump said,
Speaker 2: Elon's sticking around. Elon said, Elon sticking around. We know
Speaker 2: there's tons of lobbying going on. Elon is lobbying for
Speaker 2: transportation rules around driverless cars. He's lobbying right now for
Speaker 2: the Senate to change the big beautiful bill to to
Speaker 2: keep these EV credits in place. This is an ongoing
Speaker 2: negotiation with two with allies, but allies in Elon Musk
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump, who have somewhat different interests. I would
Speaker 2: say that beyond any kind of like anonymous report that
Speaker 2: we've seen out of Trump world, beyond anything that like
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon or any of the other kind of adversaries
Speaker 2: that Elon has connected to Trump have said, this is
Speaker 2: the single.
Speaker 3: Most significant thing.
Speaker 2: This is the like the one the biggest thing that
Speaker 2: has happened to get you to say, huh, I wonder
Speaker 2: if Elon Musk and Trump are good because this was
Speaker 2: like Elon's guy, as you said, he had also cleared
Speaker 2: his committee hearing, right, he was going to get confirmed.
Speaker 3: And the explanation, yeah.
Speaker 4: The replacement CEO for himself at his company exactly.
Speaker 3: And the explanation is kind of thin.
Speaker 2: The explanation is that Trump found out that he had
Speaker 2: made donations to Democratic politicians, which, of course, like that's
Speaker 2: a public record. There's also reporting to suggest that that
Speaker 2: Trump had already known about this, that said, like, I
Speaker 2: don't know that we know the whole story here.
Speaker 4: Max, I think I'm curious what you think of just
Speaker 4: like sometimes I think when with Trump, the simplest answer
Speaker 4: is sometimes the right one. And I have seen no
Speaker 4: reporting to back me up on this.
Speaker 3: You think he just forgot no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 4: I think that that Trump was on the campaign trail
Speaker 4: talking about Elon Musk's big, beautiful rockets that are going
Speaker 4: to take us to Mars. I think that he really
Speaker 4: believed in that idea, and the rockets have been exploding
Speaker 4: on the launch pad. And so if I'm Trump, I'm
Speaker 4: looking at that and thinking, you know, do we really
Speaker 4: want to be all in on this direction? It's just
Speaker 4: it's just, you know, symbolism to Trump matters.
Speaker 1: A lot our listeners. Another one did blow up last week. Actually,
Speaker 1: I don't rely reminder.
Speaker 4: We forget anything to do with this.
Speaker 1: This is the This is how many now in what
Speaker 1: period of time, like.
Speaker 3: Three in a row, where they've had mishaps.
Speaker 1: And they're not going to just argue that, Hey, we're
Speaker 1: just iterating these kind of explosions are all part of
Speaker 1: the learning process. Don't sweat at Chafkin. We're going there.
Speaker 3: They are arguing that, and they.
Speaker 4: Are that they're also exploding billions of dollars into Sinaire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like Sarah saying, Trump would be on
Speaker 2: the campaign trail and he had this bit that people
Speaker 2: probably remember where we talked about the arms grabbing the rockets.
Speaker 1: Like a baby.
Speaker 2: He did a little version of it actually in the
Speaker 2: Oval office the other day during Elon's you know, farewell
Speaker 2: at and so, you know, whatever the argument is about,
Speaker 2: like oh, this was just a test launch or whatever,
Speaker 2: we did not get the beautiful arms, you know, cuddling
Speaker 2: the rocket like a baby or whatever Trump might have
Speaker 2: liked to see. And on top of that, you have pushback,
Speaker 2: right of like you have you have senators, you have
Speaker 2: NASA folks, you have people who don't necessarily want to
Speaker 2: just like take a hard pivot with NASA, which is
Speaker 2: the what Jared Isaacman and Elon Muska want to do.
Speaker 2: I also do think it's possible that like Trump just
Speaker 2: kind of forgot about Jared Isaacman's donations to Democrats, or
Speaker 2: he kind of spaced when someone was telling him or
Speaker 2: or someone convinced him that actually, like this is a
Speaker 2: this is a big issue. I mean, these were very
Speaker 2: recent donations. I mean as recent as the twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four election. It's not like he was a Democrat twenty
Speaker 2: years ago. And no fair, fair, but I think it's
Speaker 2: possible that the like face value explanation offered from Donald
Speaker 2: Trump is true.
Speaker 1: Okay, I will just say in counterpoint here, hearing all
Speaker 1: that and appreciating all that and seeing your points of view,
Speaker 1: I will say that Musk himself was quoted in this
Speaker 1: very good Atlantic piece. And by the way, this Atlantic
Speaker 1: piece are just simply pulling in this case here from
Speaker 1: an old pressure he gave. He said, this whole doze
Speaker 1: thing I'm doing, this is a way to make a
Speaker 1: lot of enemies and not that many friends. And I
Speaker 1: think it's also possible that some of those enemies, and
Speaker 1: it is a big, big, big list of enemies he
Speaker 1: has made in Washington, d C. It's distinctly possible that
Speaker 1: more and more and more of them are around the
Speaker 1: president and in his year saying hey, let's sandbag these
Speaker 1: Musk initiatives. Not in so many words, that's not how
Speaker 1: they present it to Trump. I mean, I would say,
Speaker 1: when I think about how Washington, d C in some
Speaker 1: ways really roughed up elon Musk and the amount of
Speaker 1: enemies he made there. There is a very good piece
Speaker 1: that The Atlantic ran recently in which the opening scene
Speaker 1: is Scott Besson, the Secretary of the Treasury, in a
Speaker 1: fight with Musk. Also, by the way, about a pick
Speaker 1: in this case, who's going to run the IRS? And
Speaker 1: to be clear, Musk also was defeated there. Bessen ultimately
Speaker 1: got his guy to head the IRS, and Musk guy
Speaker 1: out was ousted. The story opens with Bessn't shouting at
Speaker 1: the top of his lungs at Musk, g you, this
Speaker 1: is all happening right outside the Oval office, and it's
Speaker 1: going up and down the quarters of the White House.
Speaker 1: At what point, according to the piece, the two men
Speaker 1: are their faces are just inches apart. And this, apparently,
Speaker 1: according to this piece and according to reporting we've done
Speaker 1: and others have done, is a window into I would argue, Max,
Speaker 1: the animosity that has been building there against us. Another
Speaker 1: interesting thing that the piece points out is, you remember
Speaker 1: that thing that Musk and the Doose team were demanding
Speaker 1: that bureaucrats do, where they had to like send a
Speaker 1: weekly email saying, hey, here's the three yeah, here the
Speaker 1: three things we've done this week. Apparently everybody who was
Speaker 1: just ignored it, and the Atlantic, as someone quoted anonymously
Speaker 1: saying somebody close to Trump saying how many people were
Speaker 1: fired because they didn't send in their three things a
Speaker 1: week or whatever the it was. I think that everyone
Speaker 1: is ready to move on from this part of the administration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, there has been this has existed from the
Speaker 2: moment elon Musk like not to Washington, right, there has
Speaker 2: been a lot of skepticism from others in Trump world
Speaker 2: about whether he really knew what he was doing. You know,
Speaker 2: there's lots of questions, right, his connections to China. This
Speaker 2: is like he's had adversaries all along. And I think
Speaker 2: you're right that as he's become more politically unpopular, as
Speaker 2: it became clear, yes.
Speaker 1: And his popularity, his approval ratings have been sinking.
Speaker 3: Joge is not good for the Trump administration.
Speaker 2: Like if the goal is just like maximizing for approval
Speaker 2: numbers or whatever, they would be running away from this
Speaker 2: as fast as they can, which I guess to somebody
Speaker 2: sent they.
Speaker 1: Are now Sarah. He has been interestingly, Musk been doing
Speaker 1: suddenly lots and lots of interviews with the legacy media
Speaker 1: and super keen to talk about space and super keen
Speaker 1: not to talk about politics. Let's listen to a recent
Speaker 1: interview he did with CBS wondering what your thought is
Speaker 1: on the ban on foreign students the proposal. I mean
Speaker 1: you were one of those kids, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Mean I think we want to stick to, you know,
Speaker 4: the subject of the day, which is like spaceships as
Speaker 4: opposed to you know, presidential policy.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I was sold anything is good.
Speaker 2: But no, well no, it's funny hearing somebody discover in
Speaker 2: real time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you must sometimes changes his mind.
Speaker 1: No, any event, Sarah, the it feels a little bit
Speaker 1: like the rebrand and after you know, Tesla and in general,
Speaker 1: the Musk brand was damaged quite a bit during his
Speaker 1: time in Washington. Perhaps the rebranding and.
Speaker 3: Is a foot Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 4: I mean I think you saw Tesla stocks or after
Speaker 4: he declared that he was done with Washington. However true
Speaker 4: or not that will turn out to be. I think
Speaker 4: investors are looking forward to this. They see Musk really
Speaker 4: driven to prove everyone wrong, that he can turn around
Speaker 4: his companies and get driver lists, taxis on the road
Speaker 4: and get to Mars and build out the Colossus Data
Speaker 4: Center in Memphis. I think that there's like so many
Speaker 4: plates he's spinning with really big, high stakes things that
Speaker 4: need to be accomplished. Neuralink is having a big year,
Speaker 4: as we've discussed, and wanting to put their chips and
Speaker 4: dozens of people. So it is kind of a crucial
Speaker 4: time at all of these businesses. But they all still
Speaker 4: need Washington's backing, like every single one of them. Neuralink
Speaker 4: needs the FDA. The driver his cars need a ton
Speaker 4: of government approval spasics. As we've talked about, this is
Speaker 4: not going to be a clean break. And if Trump
Speaker 4: truly is disillusioned with Musk and ready to put him aside,
Speaker 4: which it doesn't look like that's you know, he still
Speaker 4: has really nice things to say about him. They had
Speaker 4: dinner recently.
Speaker 1: Well, Sarah, he certainly likes he certainly likes Musk's money.
Speaker 1: I would say that, so, I mean I would.
Speaker 4: But but it turns out there was that detail in
Speaker 4: that Whilester's journal story that the hundred million that he's
Speaker 4: committed to Trump's pack hasn't.
Speaker 1: Come a little bit like the derived Wait a minute,
Speaker 1: it's just like the Calshi deal and the groc telegram deal.
Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I like, I think I might
Speaker 3: have said this last week.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they are negotiating in public, and
Speaker 2: like Trump and Musk, Trump and Musk over you know,
Speaker 2: various asks that Musk has which are going to be,
Speaker 2: you know, not necessarily easy for Trump to deliver, which
Speaker 2: is why he hasn't delivered them yet. And Musk, of course,
Speaker 2: is has this has a really important point of leverage
Speaker 2: over Trump, as you mentioned, David, which is that he
Speaker 2: can conceivably give hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump's pack,
Speaker 2: or to midterm candidates, or to jd Vance, or to anyone.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why you heard him in that
Speaker 2: excellent Bloomberg interview that we talked about a couple weeks ago, saying,
Speaker 2: I don't you know, I would give if I saw
Speaker 2: a need, but I don't see a need yet. Like
Speaker 2: it was very much the kind of thing you would say, me,
Speaker 2: make me see it, agotiating, make me.
Speaker 1: See that need, Help me see that need. Talk to me. Okay, Max, So,
Speaker 1: by the magic of editing, you and I were back
Speaker 1: here in the studio again, Pal, how you're doing. So
Speaker 1: we're here because Musk, shortly after we finished taping, went
Speaker 1: on a bit of a rant, an ex rant, max
Speaker 1: ripping the big beautiful bill that Donald Trump is pushing
Speaker 1: through Congress. Man.
Speaker 2: It was hot, yeah, and he had criticized it to
Speaker 2: some extent earlier. Trump had even addressed that criticism during
Speaker 2: their press conference, but this took things up a notch.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna read from the Ekes that was posted at
Speaker 2: one thirty pm. As you said after we finished recording,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive,
Speaker 2: outrageous Porkfield Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame
Speaker 2: on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong.
Speaker 3: You'd know it, I mean know it harsh.
Speaker 2: I will say, not criticizing the president there, criticizing Republican
Speaker 2: congress people.
Speaker 1: Yes, But if Trump calls it a big beautiful bill
Speaker 1: and Musk calls it a disgusting abomination, man, that puts
Speaker 1: him at pretty opposite end of the spectrum. And I
Speaker 1: also point out the very beginning, as you read so beautifully,
Speaker 1: maxim was beauty for rendering of the heks, but the
Speaker 1: very beginning, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore,
Speaker 1: implying clearly that he's been keeping a lot of this within.
Speaker 1: He had hinted in the past that he was against
Speaker 1: some of the some of this fiscal bill and some
Speaker 1: of the pork that goes through. And to be clear,
Speaker 1: you know, as somebody who as the Doge Father, was
Speaker 1: trying to cut government spending, shrink the deficit, this big
Speaker 1: beautiful mill will only add to the deficit quite a bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, undeniably. It makes him look bad.
Speaker 2: And we talked about this when we were talking about
Speaker 2: Doge way back when that all this talk about cutting deficits. Meanwhile, Trump,
Speaker 2: you know, is also talking about these you know, massive
Speaker 2: spending increases via these tax cuts.
Speaker 3: This has kind of been simmering along.
Speaker 2: To me, this is probably just a continuation of the
Speaker 2: negotiation that I mentioned.
Speaker 1: When we record the show, the Grand Bargain.
Speaker 3: He you know, there are.
Speaker 2: Things that he wants in this bill. He has talked
Speaker 2: about what he wants in this bill publicly. He wants
Speaker 2: these ev tax credits. He also earlier in the day
Speaker 2: he was complaining that the US is falling behind on soular.
Speaker 3: You know that that China. So so there are things
Speaker 3: he wants so he doesn't like he wants his own pork.
Speaker 2: But I think clearly this is ideological for Elon Musk
Speaker 2: in addition to being practical.
Speaker 1: Well, I think he does believe that the government and
Speaker 1: so so I think some of that.
Speaker 3: So I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2: You also, you know, there is a danger in a
Speaker 2: negotiation that it can turn into a fight, right that
Speaker 2: that like that what he's doing here is dice and
Speaker 2: puts Trump in a kind of a difficult position because Trump,
Speaker 2: because Musk is a big donor, because he has a
Speaker 2: huge footprint. We actually already saw Carolyn Levitt, the Press Secretary,
Speaker 2: respond to this, saying Trump is well aware of Elon's
Speaker 2: feelings about the buildings.
Speaker 3: He thinks it's still big and it's still beautiful. So
Speaker 3: we're moving ahead.
Speaker 1: But I suspect at some point, not necessarily today, but
Speaker 1: at some point in the near future, Trump himself will respond.
Speaker 2: Just one last thing, David. You know, Musk has also
Speaker 2: been retweeting various Senators, Mike Lee as well as Thomas Massey.
Speaker 2: He is essentially allying himself with the kind of hawkish,
Speaker 2: the budget hawkish, the sort of Freedom Caucus, the hawks
Speaker 2: wing of the Republican Party. Not you shouldn't read this
Speaker 2: and thing. Oh Musk is about to like leave the
Speaker 2: Republican Party or something.
Speaker 1: He is.
Speaker 3: He is attacking Trump from the right. So that's just
Speaker 3: something to keep in mind as this negotiation goes on.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you Max for coming back, racing back
Speaker 1: into the studio for this little segment. Now, can we
Speaker 1: please talk about the black eye? I can't wait. All right,
Speaker 1: I want to do one last thing here before we wrap,
Speaker 1: which is you know, Max, at that send off that
Speaker 1: Muscot in the White House, it was Trump and Musk,
Speaker 1: and Musk appeared to have something of a black eye,
Speaker 1: a shiner.
Speaker 2: A literal black eye, not like political black guy, not
Speaker 2: a metaphorical.
Speaker 3: Bat black guy.
Speaker 1: Those two.
Speaker 3: It was pretty unmissible. You could see it.
Speaker 2: I was watching this on TV, and even kind of
Speaker 2: across the room you could kind of see there's something
Speaker 2: something on his face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, we have the tape, the clip in which
Speaker 1: Musk responds to a question about that black eye. Us, Well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't. I wasn't anywhere near friends, so but I
Speaker 1: didn't know.
Speaker 2: So uh yeah, I was just watching around with Alex
Speaker 2: and I said, go ahead, punch me in the face
Speaker 2: and he did. It turns out even a five year
Speaker 2: old punching you in the in the face actually does.
Speaker 1: So Little X knocked.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. That is a rich text if there
Speaker 3: ever was one.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, you have the the sort of really
Speaker 2: awkward joke about the on and and uh and his
Speaker 2: wife uh. And then Trump's reaction to the news of
Speaker 2: Little X, say, Little X, he's got a right or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, there were those lip reading videos. Have those
Speaker 2: come up on this of Trump and Little X talking
Speaker 2: in the Oval office where it seemed like maybe Little
Speaker 2: X had had been somewhat rude to the president. There
Speaker 2: have been a lot of funny things written about this,
Speaker 2: and and you know, I've got little kids too, and
Speaker 2: and I have.
Speaker 1: You ever gotten black eyes from your kids?
Speaker 2: No? But I totally can see it. It's it's it's
Speaker 2: totally plausible that like that story.
Speaker 3: I think, I'm sure Sarah.
Speaker 1: You don't even have a brood of them.
Speaker 2: Well, there have been some pretty amusing stories written sort
Speaker 2: of speculating on who it can who are so the
Speaker 2: Times pointed out right like like there are lots of
Speaker 2: Trump world folks. There are Tesla shareholders, there are and
Speaker 2: and and like.
Speaker 1: Gotta be Scott Bessen in that list, right they.
Speaker 2: I feel like it was kind of almost insulting because
Speaker 2: we on this podcast for over a year have maintained
Speaker 2: a feud watch. We have a ready list of suspects,
Speaker 2: and no one mentioned that. No one mentioned Bill Gates,
Speaker 2: no one mentioned Sam Altman, no one mentioned the guy
Speaker 2: that Elon Musk has specifically, you know, said he.
Speaker 1: Was gonna fight Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 3: We have talked about this stuff for hours. It feels
Speaker 3: anyway you think.
Speaker 1: The investigations to start with those guys, I.
Speaker 4: Mean, someone Buckerberg would be no that would happen. There
Speaker 4: was no they would They would have no octagon set up.
Speaker 4: It would be a whole thing.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's also possible, of course that in that time story
Speaker 2: there are a lot of romantic entanglements.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, but.
Speaker 1: That said, I think we should. I think we should.
Speaker 2: Probably take Elon at his word until we until we
Speaker 2: hear otherwise.
Speaker 1: Has anybody asked X Yeah, not that I know, Okay, Max, Sarah,
Speaker 1: thank you as always, thanks.
Speaker 4: For having us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, David.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacy Wan Blake Maples Handles
Speaker 1: engineering and Dave per self fact checks. Anna Masa Raucis
Speaker 1: is our editor and our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson.
Speaker 1: The etl on ing theme is written and performed by
Speaker 1: Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our
Speaker 1: executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
Speaker 1: A big thanks as always to our supporters Joe Weber
Speaker 1: and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute,
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Speaker 1: See you next week.