1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: A star is born Elon mars Juthan Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four post. 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: We were meant for great things in the United States 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: June third. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. So Elon got 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: his farewell from the President last week. Today it's about 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: a man named Elon and he's one of the greatest 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: business leaders and innovators the world has ever produced. And 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: he is now sort of kind of back with his 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: company's twenty four to seven so right on c Reports 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: emerged of him raising billions of dollars from investors, making 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: babies and apparently, according to the New York Times doing 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Lots and lots of drugs. To talk about Elon's big 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: week back in business. I'm sitting here with two of 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: our stalwarts, Sarah Friar, team leader for Big Tech coverge 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: here at Bloomberg Sarah, Hello, Hello, And Max Chafkin BusinessWeek 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: superstar Max. 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: Hello, Hey, David, Hey Sarah. 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: Max. I saw the other day that your Mets are 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: winning baseball games. 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm so happy. 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: That explains a smile. 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're They're looking great. 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: Okay, nice, And you know, Elon may be leaving DC 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: behind Max, but the story keeps following him. Just one 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: day after that big sendoff in the Oval Office, Trump 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: abruptly pulled the NASA nomination. A Musk business associate and 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: close allied, Jared Isaacman to me, it is exhibit a 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: of the defeat of Elon Musk and Washington and illustrates 38 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: the greatly diminished state he's left it in. I suspect 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: I will get some pushback on this point though, from 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Max and Sarah. We'll start, though, with the drug allegations, 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: the money and the babies. Max. The New York Times 42 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: splashed a big report last week on Elon's drug use, 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: including ketamine. Give us some of the details. 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say Elon Musk has now denied 45 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: this report. 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: Denied it repeatedly, repeatedly. 47 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: I think he said the Times is making stuff up. 48 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: The Times that stood by it. The report gives you 49 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 2: a portrait essentially of Musk's behavior over the last year 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: and connects it to what sources are describing to The 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: Times as fairly extensive drug use. 52 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 3: Now, we of course knew. 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: That Elon Musk has smoked pot. We know that he's 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: used ketamine. 55 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: The I mean, he's admitted to the ketamine use in 56 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: the past. 57 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 3: Yerescribed I think anyone. 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: They are parts of this report suggesting, for instance, he'd 59 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: use some party drugs on various occasions that I don't 60 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: think was super surprising. But the most significant thing in 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: this story on drug use is that Elon Musk was 62 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: telling associates that he had what sounds like a was 63 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: using ketamine pretty heavily, and that he was using, in 64 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: fact so heavily that he was experiencing some side effects, 65 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: including bladder proms, which is one of the one of 66 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: the common side effects from ketamine use. So that was 67 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: in the story But then the other thing that is 68 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: maybe more troubling was sort of a suggestion that his 69 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: behavior that he was sort of using ketamine, using these 70 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: drugs all trying to run his companies while trying to 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: run the US government, and that he was impaired. And 72 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: I'd say in that way, it was kind of the 73 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: most serious allegations that we've seen about his drug use 74 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: to date. 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 4: That said, there was not like, I don't know if 76 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 4: I missed it in the story, but there was not 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 4: like a specific instance of you know, we know Musk 78 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 4: was on drugs when he did this thing. 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: That's correct, Sarah, You are right. I mean, there's at 80 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: some point they put, you know, a couple of things 81 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: side by side, the drug use next to his odd 82 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: behavior at that campaign event in Pennsylvania, which he was 83 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: jumping around on stage, But at no point, you are right, 84 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: do they say in the story that he was acting 85 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: this way on this day because of drugs. 86 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: It's a portrait of a guy who seems to the 87 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: outside world to be out of control in a whole 88 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: bunch of ways, with reporting that suggests that the same 89 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: time he was behaving erratically, he was talking to people. 90 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: About using drugs. Fairly heavily. 91 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: Now we should say a lot of the these drugs 92 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: in the Time story are not illegal drugs, right Ketamine 93 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: Musk has said he's using under a prescription. Now, of 94 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: course you could have a prescription from ketamine and still 95 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 2: be abusing it. The Times mentions this daily pill box 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: containing some adderall. Now, of course a lot of people 97 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: take adderall to manage you know, adult ADHD or whatever. 98 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 2: So so none of this on its own, I think 99 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: would be that concerning if you're like an investor or 100 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: even a close friend of Elon Musk. But it's the 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: kind of just juxtaposition that that Sarah's bringing up that raises. 102 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: Question, And I think the piece says that there was 103 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: at some point this blurry line between what was medically 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: prescribed and what was just recreational use. 105 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 4: There was one one other note in the story that 106 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 4: I found really interesting, which is that SpaceX, as a 107 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 4: government contractor, has to run a drug free workplace, and 108 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 4: there was sourcing in the story that Musk is getting 109 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 4: heads up on those drug tests before they happen so 110 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 4: that he can more easily pass them. So that was 111 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 4: another detail besides the bladder detail. The twenty pills in 112 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 4: the pillbox detail that built a picture of ways in 113 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: which this is becoming more routine for him, more integrated 114 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 4: with his every day and like well known to his associates. 115 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: I just want to say on that point, the Times 116 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: did reach out to SpaceX and SpaceX did not respond. 117 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: When are the Times seeking comment? 118 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? 119 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: And I guess the other thing there is that fact 120 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: is important because Musk has repeatedly said that he's, you know, 121 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: drug tested continuously. He's tested clean continuously. 122 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 4: And Kristin grind who who authored this one of the 123 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 4: authors on this story. She also wrote the book on 124 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 4: Tony Shea, who, as as is well known now died 125 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: of an overdose and her book goes deeply into the 126 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 4: history of ketamine abuse by that CEO of zaz And 127 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 4: and his escalation into other drugs and how it how 128 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 4: it changed thinking and and so one thing I've learned 129 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 4: from from that is the side effects include a lot 130 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 4: of amnesia, a lot of of distortion of reality, a 131 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 4: lot of confusion over what has happened, a lot of 132 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 4: paranoia is common in ketamine abuse. So I think that 133 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 4: that maybe why there was a lot of juxtaposition with 134 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 4: with scenes in this story of Musk, you know, either 135 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 4: attacking people or concerned about his companies, or having different 136 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 4: versions of the same reality. And I think the most 137 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 4: striking thing to me that was news to me I 138 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 4: didn't I didn't hear about with Tony say, but the 139 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 4: bladder issues just seem so painful. And what I was 140 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 4: reading the medical literature on that looks like irreversible if 141 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 4: it gets to that point. 142 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: No, irreversible doesn't sound good. 143 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: There was a whole other dimension in this story that 144 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: that kind of pertains to this because it's again sort 145 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: of more behavior that seems kind of erratic. And it 146 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: was about Elon Musk's love life, right, about Musk saying 147 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: different things to different women. 148 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: Right. 149 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: So Grimes believe for a time that she was in 150 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: a monogamous relationship with Elon Musk. 151 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: Mistake. 152 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: Ashley Sinclair also believed that she was in a monogamous 153 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: relationship with Elon Musk. According to her, we also got 154 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: some detail on the terms of the settlement. 155 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: At It was a lot of money her in order 156 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: to keep it sifteen million dollars up front and one 157 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars per month. According to documents that the 158 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: time says it saw and Ashley Saint Clair said, nograsias, 159 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: and she said, I will no, I will see you. 160 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: I believe in court. They are in court now. 161 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 162 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: And one thing, I mean, look, this is kind of 163 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: a side alley or whatever. Maybe this is not the 164 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: most important thing in this story, but it really did 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: raise a question of how sincere he is in his 166 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: pro natalism versus is he just sort of out of control? 167 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: And so maybe some combo of the two, right. 168 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, some combo of the two, right, because it is 169 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: not a portrait of somebody who is fully in control. 170 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: I will say there is a potential number fifteen in 171 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: this story, Sinclair saying that he told her that he 172 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: had fathered children all over the world, including one with 173 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 2: a Japanese FLT star, which would be a new baby, 174 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: and that. 175 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: Apparently he was or is just offering his sperm to 176 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: any woman out there that we knew. I thought we did. 177 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 4: I missed that in the journal story. I was in 178 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 4: there sperm to somebody via direct message. 179 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: I guess I suppose I had blocked that out of 180 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: my mind. 181 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 2: Now I went on a little bit of a rabbit 182 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: hole trying to find the Japanese pop star to see 183 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: if this had indeed happened. 184 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: Are there any did you fly to Tokyo for this? 185 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: No, this happened on the internet, but I. 186 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: Was not able to Finally, we should treat this as 187 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: an unconfirmed report until we received further confirmation. 188 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: Got it? 189 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: I wrote. 190 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: The last thing on this subject I will note is 191 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: The Times. Both in the story and then in their 192 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: podcast in which they talked about it, they kept using 193 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: the term brood, which a brood of kids, which to me, 194 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: I mean usually broods like an animals. And I don't 195 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: know that it was just struck me as odd. Max. 196 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: I guess they suppose they figured once you get to 197 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: a certain number, it's no longer just a conventional family 198 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: of this now. 199 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: When you there just isn't a lot of precedent for 200 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: having this many children, Like I think it's hard to 201 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: come up with. I don't know that we have a 202 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: term for a large amount of human children this low. 203 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: You know, this big was so apparently not. I think 204 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 3: The Times is you know, working, but. 205 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: They have Sarah Fryar other things that happened in the 206 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: last past few days. Elon Musk is raising a lot 207 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: of money. It would seem tell us about it. 208 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, so a few things are happening at once. Let 209 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 4: me pull up my list here. So there is the 210 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: five billion that he wants for Xai. 211 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: There is, by the way, five billion, to be clear, 212 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: five billion via the debt market, not in. 213 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 3: Ex the debt market exactly. 214 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 4: So that's debt for Xai, which is a which is 215 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 4: part of Xai Holdings, which is simultaneously in discussions to 216 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 4: raise twenty billion in equity. And then he separately had 217 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 4: a raise for Neuralink, his brain technology company. That that 218 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 4: was the six hundred and fifty million round. And he's also, 219 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 4: according to the Financial Time, selling three hundred million in 220 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 4: Xai stock through a secondary offering. So lots of lots 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 4: of capital raises happening at once for his companies. Maybe 222 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: trying to make the most of this return to his 223 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 4: corporate life in what he says will be a full 224 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 4: time manner and realizing that these companies that he needs 225 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: more money to do the things he wants to do. 226 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: Important to differentiate between what has been announced, which is 227 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: the right and these Xai numbers, which according to. 228 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: The reports are still in marketing stage. 229 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: They're they're just asking for it. 230 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: So like yeah, like you're asking for. 231 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: It also like five billion dollars, but it doesn't necessarily mean. 232 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: That I'm going to can I tell you something? Though 233 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: much more likely to do usive billion than Max Schafflin. Yeah, 234 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: I'll give you now when you. 235 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: Dang GPUs do you need that so many? 236 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you dangle an interest rate of over ten 237 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: percent on the debt, that certainly helps. And apparently the 238 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: interest rate they're offering you somewhere around twelve Morgan Stanley 239 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: time bank to mister Musk is handling the deal. I 240 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: will say, Max, you know, it's funny because Morgan Stanley 241 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: the other banks just finally finally got that godfor's sake, 242 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: and Twitter dead off its books. Twitter now of course 243 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: x which is now of course part of Xai. And 244 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: as soon as they finally managed to get it off 245 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: their books after they were nursing it forever and couldn't 246 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: pawn it off on anybody, bang, we hit the market 247 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: with another five billion. 248 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: I mean, like, if you're a banker, working with Elon 249 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: Musk is a good bet, even if you're not necessarily 250 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: crazy about any particular deal. 251 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: Like he's got a lot of private equity to sell. 252 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: All right, Max. Last thing in this space another deal 253 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: that happened or almost happened, kind of happened then didn't happen, 254 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: is Groc and Telegram. This is the. 255 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: Second one of these. 256 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: So the Telegram CEO tweeted or East or whatever about 257 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 2: a big deal with Groc that they were going to 258 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: integrate Grock into into Telegram or something, and a bunch 259 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: of news outlets wrote about it. 260 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 3: This is pretty similar to the story we. 261 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: Talked about two weeks ago about Calshi announcing a deal 262 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: and then Elon Musk showed up on Twitter and said 263 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: no deal has been signed. This kind of like weird 264 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: public feuding with a potential partner. This is a potentially 265 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: a large deal now. Look, Telegram, unlike Calshi, is a 266 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: very controversial business. The founder, Pavel d'urrov I believe, is 267 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: not an uncomplicated guy. There are regulators around the world 268 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: who have problems with the way Telegram handles like illegal 269 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: content in going through its service. Look, we don't know 270 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: the backstory, so who knows, But like, looking at this 271 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: report in light of what we read in the Times. 272 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: Like it just it does seem it seems odd right. 273 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 4: Well, also just for us to reply publicly on X 274 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 4: saying nothing is signed, and then for Pavel d'ov to 275 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 4: reply to that saying, correct, we're just in late stage 276 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 4: discussions Like those weren't his exact words, but he was 277 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 4: like trying to keep the relationship it proceeding ahead with 278 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 4: a steal, as opposed to taking Musk's very pointed statement 279 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 4: that nothing was happening. 280 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I think is going on here. 281 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: Please do But and this is just speculation, but you know, 282 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, that's what this show is. 283 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: Max, He's a famous I got it, you know. 284 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: Just remember he's a famously hands on ceo his empire, 285 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: especially now, especially with his kind of political engagement, which 286 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: continues even with this White House event, and he's running 287 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: more companies than he's ever run. Like, I think it's 288 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: just gotten harder for all of these companies, especially these startups. 289 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: You know, Grok is sort of like a startup to operate, 290 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: they need Elon musk sign off for everything. And and 291 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: my supposition is some of these deals that are being 292 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: announced have been announced without. 293 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: The underlings are getting out over their skis anything you 294 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: didn't consult with the doge father first? 295 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 4: Exactly right, okay, or he made the deals and he's 296 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 4: forgetting possible as well. 297 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: Possible does father the dose father, like all fathers, tend 298 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: to forget a lot of that they do. And say, 299 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: moving back to Washington for a second, Max, because over 300 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: the weekend, just when you think Elon is leaving Washington 301 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: and he's closing that chapter of his life, bang, big 302 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: explosion reports start coming out. I believe it was initially 303 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: reported anonymously with sources, then confirmed by the White House 304 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: Trump truth that did it start with the truth. 305 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: There was a reporter Trump on Saturday. 306 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: That Musk Skuy Jared Isaac Man, close business associate has 307 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: been up in SpaceX, you know, traveling across across space. 308 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: Someone who's in put a lot of money into SpaceX. 309 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: I believe, was suddenly out as Trump's pick to lead NASA. 310 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: That's quite a parting gift, Max, on your way out 311 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: the door. 312 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: Well, it's not a parting gift. 313 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: Like to stop this, Like, first of all, Trump said, 314 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 2: Elon's sticking around. Elon said, Elon sticking around. We know 315 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 2: there's tons of lobbying going on. Elon is lobbying for 316 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: transportation rules around driverless cars. He's lobbying right now for 317 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 2: the Senate to change the big beautiful bill to to 318 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 2: keep these EV credits in place. This is an ongoing 319 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: negotiation with two with allies, but allies in Elon Musk 320 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: and Donald Trump, who have somewhat different interests. I would 321 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: say that beyond any kind of like anonymous report that 322 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: we've seen out of Trump world, beyond anything that like 323 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: Steve Bannon or any of the other kind of adversaries 324 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: that Elon has connected to Trump have said, this is 325 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: the single. 326 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 3: Most significant thing. 327 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: This is the like the one the biggest thing that 328 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 2: has happened to get you to say, huh, I wonder 329 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: if Elon Musk and Trump are good because this was 330 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: like Elon's guy, as you said, he had also cleared 331 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: his committee hearing, right, he was going to get confirmed. 332 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 3: And the explanation, yeah. 333 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 4: The replacement CEO for himself at his company exactly. 334 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 3: And the explanation is kind of thin. 335 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: The explanation is that Trump found out that he had 336 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: made donations to Democratic politicians, which, of course, like that's 337 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: a public record. There's also reporting to suggest that that 338 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: Trump had already known about this, that said, like, I 339 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: don't know that we know the whole story here. 340 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 4: Max, I think I'm curious what you think of just 341 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: like sometimes I think when with Trump, the simplest answer 342 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: is sometimes the right one. And I have seen no 343 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 4: reporting to back me up on this. 344 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 3: You think he just forgot no, no, no, no no. 345 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 4: I think that that Trump was on the campaign trail 346 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 4: talking about Elon Musk's big, beautiful rockets that are going 347 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 4: to take us to Mars. I think that he really 348 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 4: believed in that idea, and the rockets have been exploding 349 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 4: on the launch pad. And so if I'm Trump, I'm 350 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 4: looking at that and thinking, you know, do we really 351 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 4: want to be all in on this direction? It's just 352 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 4: it's just, you know, symbolism to Trump matters. 353 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: A lot our listeners. Another one did blow up last week. Actually, 354 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: I don't rely reminder. 355 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 4: We forget anything to do with this. 356 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: This is the This is how many now in what 357 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: period of time, like. 358 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 3: Three in a row, where they've had mishaps. 359 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: And they're not going to just argue that, Hey, we're 360 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: just iterating these kind of explosions are all part of 361 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: the learning process. Don't sweat at Chafkin. We're going there. 362 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 3: They are arguing that, and they. 363 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 4: Are that they're also exploding billions of dollars into Sinaire. 364 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like Sarah saying, Trump would be on 365 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: the campaign trail and he had this bit that people 366 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: probably remember where we talked about the arms grabbing the rockets. 367 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: Like a baby. 368 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: He did a little version of it actually in the 369 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: Oval office the other day during Elon's you know, farewell 370 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: at and so, you know, whatever the argument is about, 371 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 2: like oh, this was just a test launch or whatever, 372 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: we did not get the beautiful arms, you know, cuddling 373 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: the rocket like a baby or whatever Trump might have 374 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: liked to see. And on top of that, you have pushback, 375 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 2: right of like you have you have senators, you have 376 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: NASA folks, you have people who don't necessarily want to 377 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: just like take a hard pivot with NASA, which is 378 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: the what Jared Isaacman and Elon Muska want to do. 379 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: I also do think it's possible that like Trump just 380 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: kind of forgot about Jared Isaacman's donations to Democrats, or 381 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 2: he kind of spaced when someone was telling him or 382 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: or someone convinced him that actually, like this is a 383 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: this is a big issue. I mean, these were very 384 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: recent donations. I mean as recent as the twenty twenty 385 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: four election. It's not like he was a Democrat twenty 386 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: years ago. And no fair, fair, but I think it's 387 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: possible that the like face value explanation offered from Donald 388 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: Trump is true. 389 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I will just say in counterpoint here, hearing all 390 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: that and appreciating all that and seeing your points of view, 391 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: I will say that Musk himself was quoted in this 392 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: very good Atlantic piece. And by the way, this Atlantic 393 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: piece are just simply pulling in this case here from 394 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: an old pressure he gave. He said, this whole doze 395 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: thing I'm doing, this is a way to make a 396 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: lot of enemies and not that many friends. And I 397 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: think it's also possible that some of those enemies, and 398 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: it is a big, big, big list of enemies he 399 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: has made in Washington, d C. It's distinctly possible that 400 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: more and more and more of them are around the 401 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: president and in his year saying hey, let's sandbag these 402 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: Musk initiatives. Not in so many words, that's not how 403 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: they present it to Trump. I mean, I would say, 404 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: when I think about how Washington, d C in some 405 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: ways really roughed up elon Musk and the amount of 406 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: enemies he made there. There is a very good piece 407 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 1: that The Atlantic ran recently in which the opening scene 408 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: is Scott Besson, the Secretary of the Treasury, in a 409 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: fight with Musk. Also, by the way, about a pick 410 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: in this case, who's going to run the IRS? And 411 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: to be clear, Musk also was defeated there. Bessen ultimately 412 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: got his guy to head the IRS, and Musk guy 413 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: out was ousted. The story opens with Bessn't shouting at 414 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: the top of his lungs at Musk, g you, this 415 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: is all happening right outside the Oval office, and it's 416 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: going up and down the quarters of the White House. 417 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: At what point, according to the piece, the two men 418 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: are their faces are just inches apart. And this, apparently, 419 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: according to this piece and according to reporting we've done 420 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: and others have done, is a window into I would argue, Max, 421 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: the animosity that has been building there against us. Another 422 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: interesting thing that the piece points out is, you remember 423 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: that thing that Musk and the Doose team were demanding 424 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: that bureaucrats do, where they had to like send a 425 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: weekly email saying, hey, here's the three yeah, here the 426 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: three things we've done this week. Apparently everybody who was 427 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: just ignored it, and the Atlantic, as someone quoted anonymously 428 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: saying somebody close to Trump saying how many people were 429 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: fired because they didn't send in their three things a 430 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: week or whatever the it was. I think that everyone 431 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: is ready to move on from this part of the administration. 432 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, there has been this has existed from the 433 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: moment elon Musk like not to Washington, right, there has 434 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: been a lot of skepticism from others in Trump world 435 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: about whether he really knew what he was doing. You know, 436 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: there's lots of questions, right, his connections to China. This 437 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: is like he's had adversaries all along. And I think 438 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: you're right that as he's become more politically unpopular, as 439 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: it became clear, yes. 440 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 1: And his popularity, his approval ratings have been sinking. 441 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: Joge is not good for the Trump administration. 442 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 2: Like if the goal is just like maximizing for approval 443 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: numbers or whatever, they would be running away from this 444 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: as fast as they can, which I guess to somebody 445 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 2: sent they. 446 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: Are now Sarah. He has been interestingly, Musk been doing 447 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: suddenly lots and lots of interviews with the legacy media 448 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: and super keen to talk about space and super keen 449 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: not to talk about politics. Let's listen to a recent 450 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: interview he did with CBS wondering what your thought is 451 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: on the ban on foreign students the proposal. I mean 452 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: you were one of those kids, right, Yeah, I. 453 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 4: Mean I think we want to stick to, you know, 454 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 4: the subject of the day, which is like spaceships as 455 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 4: opposed to you know, presidential policy. 456 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: Oh okay, I was sold anything is good. 457 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: But no, well no, it's funny hearing somebody discover in 458 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: real time. 459 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, you must sometimes changes his mind. 460 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: No, any event, Sarah, the it feels a little bit 461 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: like the rebrand and after you know, Tesla and in general, 462 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: the Musk brand was damaged quite a bit during his 463 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: time in Washington. Perhaps the rebranding and. 464 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: Is a foot Yeah, I think it is. 465 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 4: I mean I think you saw Tesla stocks or after 466 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 4: he declared that he was done with Washington. However true 467 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 4: or not that will turn out to be. I think 468 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 4: investors are looking forward to this. They see Musk really 469 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 4: driven to prove everyone wrong, that he can turn around 470 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 4: his companies and get driver lists, taxis on the road 471 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 4: and get to Mars and build out the Colossus Data 472 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 4: Center in Memphis. I think that there's like so many 473 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 4: plates he's spinning with really big, high stakes things that 474 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 4: need to be accomplished. Neuralink is having a big year, 475 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 4: as we've discussed, and wanting to put their chips and 476 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 4: dozens of people. So it is kind of a crucial 477 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 4: time at all of these businesses. But they all still 478 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 4: need Washington's backing, like every single one of them. Neuralink 479 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 4: needs the FDA. The driver his cars need a ton 480 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 4: of government approval spasics. As we've talked about, this is 481 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 4: not going to be a clean break. And if Trump 482 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: truly is disillusioned with Musk and ready to put him aside, 483 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 4: which it doesn't look like that's you know, he still 484 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 4: has really nice things to say about him. They had 485 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 4: dinner recently. 486 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: Well, Sarah, he certainly likes he certainly likes Musk's money. 487 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: I would say that, so, I mean I would. 488 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 4: But but it turns out there was that detail in 489 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 4: that Whilester's journal story that the hundred million that he's 490 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 4: committed to Trump's pack hasn't. 491 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: Come a little bit like the derived Wait a minute, 492 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: it's just like the Calshi deal and the groc telegram deal. 493 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I like, I think I might 494 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 3: have said this last week. 495 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I think they are negotiating in public, and 496 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 2: like Trump and Musk, Trump and Musk over you know, 497 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: various asks that Musk has which are going to be, 498 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: you know, not necessarily easy for Trump to deliver, which 499 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: is why he hasn't delivered them yet. And Musk, of course, 500 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: is has this has a really important point of leverage 501 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: over Trump, as you mentioned, David, which is that he 502 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: can conceivably give hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump's pack, 503 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: or to midterm candidates, or to jd Vance, or to anyone. 504 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: And I think that's why you heard him in that 505 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: excellent Bloomberg interview that we talked about a couple weeks ago, saying, 506 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 2: I don't you know, I would give if I saw 507 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 2: a need, but I don't see a need yet. Like 508 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: it was very much the kind of thing you would say, me, 509 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: make me see it, agotiating, make me. 510 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: See that need, Help me see that need. Talk to me. Okay, Max, So, 511 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: by the magic of editing, you and I were back 512 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: here in the studio again, Pal, how you're doing. So 513 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: we're here because Musk, shortly after we finished taping, went 514 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: on a bit of a rant, an ex rant, max 515 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: ripping the big beautiful bill that Donald Trump is pushing 516 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: through Congress. Man. 517 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: It was hot, yeah, and he had criticized it to 518 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: some extent earlier. Trump had even addressed that criticism during 519 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: their press conference, but this took things up a notch. 520 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: I'm gonna read from the Ekes that was posted at 521 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: one thirty pm. As you said after we finished recording, 522 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, 523 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: outrageous Porkfield Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame 524 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. 525 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 3: You'd know it, I mean know it harsh. 526 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: I will say, not criticizing the president there, criticizing Republican 527 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: congress people. 528 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: Yes, But if Trump calls it a big beautiful bill 529 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: and Musk calls it a disgusting abomination, man, that puts 530 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: him at pretty opposite end of the spectrum. And I 531 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: also point out the very beginning, as you read so beautifully, 532 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: maxim was beauty for rendering of the heks, but the 533 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: very beginning, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore, 534 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: implying clearly that he's been keeping a lot of this within. 535 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: He had hinted in the past that he was against 536 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: some of the some of this fiscal bill and some 537 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: of the pork that goes through. And to be clear, 538 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, as somebody who as the Doge Father, was 539 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: trying to cut government spending, shrink the deficit, this big 540 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: beautiful mill will only add to the deficit quite a bit. 541 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, undeniably. It makes him look bad. 542 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: And we talked about this when we were talking about 543 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: Doge way back when that all this talk about cutting deficits. Meanwhile, Trump, 544 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: you know, is also talking about these you know, massive 545 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: spending increases via these tax cuts. 546 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 3: This has kind of been simmering along. 547 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: To me, this is probably just a continuation of the 548 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: negotiation that I mentioned. 549 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: When we record the show, the Grand Bargain. 550 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: He you know, there are. 551 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 2: Things that he wants in this bill. He has talked 552 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 2: about what he wants in this bill publicly. He wants 553 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: these ev tax credits. He also earlier in the day 554 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: he was complaining that the US is falling behind on soular. 555 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: You know that that China. So so there are things 556 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: he wants so he doesn't like he wants his own pork. 557 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: But I think clearly this is ideological for Elon Musk 558 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: in addition to being practical. 559 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: Well, I think he does believe that the government and 560 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 1: so so I think some of that. 561 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 3: So I think that's part of it. 562 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: You also, you know, there is a danger in a 563 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: negotiation that it can turn into a fight, right that 564 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: that like that what he's doing here is dice and 565 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: puts Trump in a kind of a difficult position because Trump, 566 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: because Musk is a big donor, because he has a 567 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: huge footprint. We actually already saw Carolyn Levitt, the Press Secretary, 568 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: respond to this, saying Trump is well aware of Elon's 569 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: feelings about the buildings. 570 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 3: He thinks it's still big and it's still beautiful. So 571 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: we're moving ahead. 572 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: But I suspect at some point, not necessarily today, but 573 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: at some point in the near future, Trump himself will respond. 574 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: Just one last thing, David. You know, Musk has also 575 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: been retweeting various Senators, Mike Lee as well as Thomas Massey. 576 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: He is essentially allying himself with the kind of hawkish, 577 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: the budget hawkish, the sort of Freedom Caucus, the hawks 578 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: wing of the Republican Party. Not you shouldn't read this 579 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: and thing. Oh Musk is about to like leave the 580 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: Republican Party or something. 581 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: He is. 582 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 3: He is attacking Trump from the right. So that's just 583 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 3: something to keep in mind as this negotiation goes on. 584 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: All right, thank you Max for coming back, racing back 585 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: into the studio for this little segment. Now, can we 586 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: please talk about the black eye? I can't wait. All right, 587 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: I want to do one last thing here before we wrap, 588 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: which is you know, Max, at that send off that 589 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: Muscot in the White House, it was Trump and Musk, 590 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: and Musk appeared to have something of a black eye, 591 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: a shiner. 592 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: A literal black eye, not like political black guy, not 593 00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: a metaphorical. 594 00:31:59,200 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 3: Bat black guy. 595 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: Those two. 596 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: It was pretty unmissible. You could see it. 597 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 2: I was watching this on TV, and even kind of 598 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: across the room you could kind of see there's something 599 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: something on his face. 600 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, we have the tape, the clip in which 601 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: Musk responds to a question about that black eye. Us, Well, 602 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't. I wasn't anywhere near friends, so but I 603 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: didn't know. 604 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: So uh yeah, I was just watching around with Alex 605 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: and I said, go ahead, punch me in the face 606 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: and he did. It turns out even a five year 607 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: old punching you in the in the face actually does. 608 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: So Little X knocked. 609 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 3: Oh my god. That is a rich text if there 610 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 3: ever was one. 611 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: Right, I mean, you have the the sort of really 612 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: awkward joke about the on and and uh and his 613 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: wife uh. And then Trump's reaction to the news of 614 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: Little X, say, Little X, he's got a right or whatever. 615 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: You know, there were those lip reading videos. Have those 616 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: come up on this of Trump and Little X talking 617 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: in the Oval office where it seemed like maybe Little 618 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: X had had been somewhat rude to the president. There 619 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: have been a lot of funny things written about this, 620 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 2: and and you know, I've got little kids too, and 621 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: and I have. 622 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: You ever gotten black eyes from your kids? 623 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: No? But I totally can see it. It's it's it's 624 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: totally plausible that like that story. 625 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: I think, I'm sure Sarah. 626 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: You don't even have a brood of them. 627 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: Well, there have been some pretty amusing stories written sort 628 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: of speculating on who it can who are so the 629 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: Times pointed out right like like there are lots of 630 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: Trump world folks. There are Tesla shareholders, there are and 631 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: and and like. 632 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: Gotta be Scott Bessen in that list, right they. 633 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: I feel like it was kind of almost insulting because 634 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: we on this podcast for over a year have maintained 635 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,719 Speaker 2: a feud watch. We have a ready list of suspects, 636 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 2: and no one mentioned that. No one mentioned Bill Gates, 637 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,479 Speaker 2: no one mentioned Sam Altman, no one mentioned the guy 638 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: that Elon Musk has specifically, you know, said he. 639 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: Was gonna fight Mark Zuckerberg. 640 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 3: We have talked about this stuff for hours. It feels 641 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:18,959 Speaker 3: anyway you think. 642 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: The investigations to start with those guys, I. 643 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 4: Mean, someone Buckerberg would be no that would happen. There 644 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 4: was no they would They would have no octagon set up. 645 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 4: It would be a whole thing. 646 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 3: You know. 647 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: It's also possible, of course that in that time story 648 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: there are a lot of romantic entanglements. 649 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 3: Like I don't know, but. 650 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: That said, I think we should. I think we should. 651 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 2: Probably take Elon at his word until we until we 652 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 2: hear otherwise. 653 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: Has anybody asked X Yeah, not that I know, Okay, Max, Sarah, 654 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: thank you as always, thanks. 655 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:49,399 Speaker 4: For having us. 656 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, David. 657 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacy Wan Blake Maples Handles 658 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: engineering and Dave per self fact checks. Anna Masa Raucis 659 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: is our editor and our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson. 660 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: The etl on ing theme is written and performed by 661 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our 662 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 663 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: A big thanks as always to our supporters Joe Weber 664 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, 665 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. 666 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: See you next week.