Speaker 1: All Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Welcome to take it up and here a show that
Speaker 2: today is very urgently about things falling apart in Kenya
Speaker 2: and how to put them back together again. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Miya Wong. What you're about to hear is an interview
Speaker 2: about the Kenyan protests that was recorded on Sunday, July
Speaker 2: twenty third. At time of recording, it is now Tuesday,
Speaker 2: the twenty fifth, and in that two day span, the
Speaker 2: situation and Kenya has gotten significantly worse. Kenyan police are
Speaker 2: firing live ammo into crowds of protesters. They've killed at
Speaker 2: least five people today. That numbers expected to rise as
Speaker 2: more protesters die in hospitals. The government has deployed the
Speaker 2: army and shut down much of the internet in an
Speaker 2: attempt to stop news from getting out. On Kenyan TV,
Speaker 2: political leaders called the protesters criminals and a threat to
Speaker 2: national security. Meanwhile, protesters made good on their slogan occupied
Speaker 2: Parliament by storming and then partially burning down the Parliament building.
Speaker 2: As politicians continue to meet their demands with bullets. What
Speaker 2: we've seen today is terrifying cop shooting live ammo into churches,
Speaker 2: Cops opening fire on people waiting for medical care. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: to the fury of the protesters, Kenyan troops arrived today
Speaker 2: in Haiti to begin a US backed occupation of the country.
Speaker 2: We spent this interview largely discussing the local Kenyan political leads,
Speaker 2: but this is also an international crisis. Much of the
Speaker 2: impetus for the brutal tax increases on basic goods came
Speaker 2: from an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that required Kenya
Speaker 2: to increase its taxes to twenty five percent of the
Speaker 2: country's GDP. Thus, Kenyans are being robbed twice, once by
Speaker 2: the Kenyan political masters of the cops shooting them in
Speaker 2: the streets, and again by the IMF and their neolibal
Speaker 2: wealth extraction program. As the struggle continues. Let us now
Speaker 2: turn to our interview into a more optimistic time in
Speaker 2: the movement to get a real understanding of what the
Speaker 2: protests are about. Welcome to it could happen here a
Speaker 2: podcast where the here is currently Kenya. Yeah, I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Miya Wong, and we are going to talk about a
Speaker 2: bunch of protests and a bunch of very very very
Speaker 2: interesting sort of political developments in Kenya that I think
Speaker 2: have gotten very distressingly little coverage in in the sort
Speaker 2: of like Anglophone maation media. And with me to talk
Speaker 2: about that is Justine Wanda is a stand up comedian,
Speaker 2: a political satirist, and a writer who's created Fake Book
Speaker 2: with Justine about well basically all the stuff that we're
Speaker 2: going to be talking about today are the are the
Speaker 2: things you will see on this show. Justine, Welcome to
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me me. How are
Speaker 3: you doing?
Speaker 2: Ah? You know, this is this This is one of
Speaker 2: those morning recordings. So I'm a little bit unhinged, but
Speaker 2: it's okay, We're I'm really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 4: And I yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think I think the place to start here
Speaker 2: is can you talk about so? So these protests are
Speaker 2: about an upcoming finance bill, So let's talk about what
Speaker 2: what actually is this bill and what seeing it?
Speaker 5: Okay, So for me to be able to talk about
Speaker 5: the finance bill, I have to talk about the finance
Speaker 5: bill that was past last year. So in twoy twenty three,
Speaker 5: we had a financi will that was passed. Most of
Speaker 5: the financial last year had something called the Housing levy,
Speaker 5: which basically requires every single Kenyon who's employed to remove
Speaker 5: a little bit of their salary to go directly to
Speaker 5: pay for an account where they'll pull the money to build.
Speaker 3: Kenyon's affordable houses.
Speaker 5: And in Kenya, housing is not especially a crisis in
Speaker 5: rural areas because most people have their own personal films.
Speaker 5: The issue is usually the urban centers where housing is
Speaker 5: actually very expensive and it's very poorly infrastructured, like there's
Speaker 5: no water, sometimes there's no electricity in certain parts, like
Speaker 5: people have done a lot of illegal collection connections. So
Speaker 5: last year the bill was kind of rummed through and
Speaker 5: there was so much public participation.
Speaker 3: Actually in the beginning that was like.
Speaker 5: A lot of people got angry about the bill forcing
Speaker 5: people to take money out of their pockets to contribute
Speaker 5: to a fund that didn't seem like they had a plan.
Speaker 5: And a lot of politicians were actually on TV and
Speaker 5: everyone was watching every interview and they're like, you don't
Speaker 5: make any sense, we don't understand. Yeah, it's like what
Speaker 5: is that money for? We're not sure, but we know
Speaker 5: we're to building houses. How are you going to manage
Speaker 5: the money? Who's going to be in charge of the
Speaker 5: money how is this? Like every single aspect was met
Speaker 5: by like some form of deflection or like a lie,
Speaker 5: just like a lot of there wasn't any accountability in
Speaker 5: the in what they were telling us. And even the
Speaker 5: person who was in charge was like on TV, he
Speaker 5: was sweating.
Speaker 3: He looked like he was lying though who time.
Speaker 5: So everyone was like, if this is how you're speaking
Speaker 5: about it when we aren't giving out money, what will
Speaker 5: happen after the fact. But the bill sailed through, and
Speaker 5: one of the elements that was in that field that
Speaker 5: wasn't even in the news was that avocado farmers in
Speaker 5: the country will start with charging us, will be charged
Speaker 5: a certain amount of money on their produce and they
Speaker 5: have to produce receipts on this every single day.
Speaker 3: What like if yes, if you sell like.
Speaker 5: An avocado, one avocado or of avocadoes, you have to
Speaker 5: do a breakdown of like your sales and like provide
Speaker 5: recists to the government and then like you're charged for it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, And the MPs this.
Speaker 5: Like earlier this year, were like when the bill usually
Speaker 5: like sometimes it takes a while for the closest to
Speaker 5: come into effect.
Speaker 3: It takes like maybe a.
Speaker 5: Couple of months, So the the amount the farmers were
Speaker 5: supposed to get charged was supposed to go live on
Speaker 5: sorry in February or something. So in February, farmers are
Speaker 5: getting attacked by like the Kenya Revenue Authority. They're being
Speaker 5: told you need to provide these receipts and everything, and
Speaker 5: everyone is like, I don't understand because we weren't informed.
Speaker 5: And then the politicians who did not read the bill
Speaker 5: but past it were like, oh, we didn't read the document.
Speaker 3: It was too big.
Speaker 5: What yes, exactly, So like that kind of information was
Speaker 5: what that was what was on the news just before
Speaker 5: they introduced now the financial twenty four So it's like,
Speaker 5: we know you didn't read the one from last year.
Speaker 5: You passed a bunch of bills that you didn't understand
Speaker 5: the impact of it in the long term, so why
Speaker 5: should you Why should Kenyans trust you with this new one?
Speaker 5: And then they were like, no, we have the best
Speaker 5: economic interests that had And then everyone was like, but
Speaker 5: the bill you passed last year to increase revenue didn't work,
Speaker 5: So if it didn't work, what makes you having a
Speaker 5: bunch of new taxes they're going to work? And they
Speaker 5: couldn't answer that and now this finance built enter wants
Speaker 5: to introduce much of your call tax where if you
Speaker 5: own a car, you will pay like a certain amount
Speaker 5: like I think two percent that's of the voliation of
Speaker 5: your car, and you paid to your insurance company every
Speaker 5: single year.
Speaker 2: Wait to insurance?
Speaker 4: What what?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 4: Wait? Hold on? So why why is the tax?
Speaker 2: Why is this being paid to the insurance company?
Speaker 5: Because that's that's how people are asking. It's like, we
Speaker 5: understand because insurance and Kenya is mostly run by private
Speaker 5: entities know exactly what they're doing, so it's more like
Speaker 5: a way to privates and get money into peoples so
Speaker 5: we can't see and then end up being stolen and
Speaker 5: there will be no accountability. But they say it's easier
Speaker 5: because the insurance company is already handled this kind of stuff.
Speaker 5: So on top of your insurance, on top of the
Speaker 5: insurance you pay for your car, you pay the motor
Speaker 5: vehicle tax as part of that. And I'm like, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 5: We don't trust our money on any given day. Why
Speaker 5: would you think we would just to suddenly with a
Speaker 5: bunch of money being branded by a private from somewhere
Speaker 5: Because they're not going to show us their books.
Speaker 2: Yes, it seems like part of this too, is just
Speaker 2: that the sort of tax infrastructure isn't very like, the
Speaker 2: tax collection infrastructure isn't very good, because you would think
Speaker 2: that that wouldn't be that hard for the government to
Speaker 2: just collect, but instead we have like a like an
Speaker 2: Ottoman style tax farming situation.
Speaker 5: So I love it you say that, because like that's
Speaker 5: how that's exactly how it feels like everything is run.
Speaker 3: It's very.
Speaker 5: Yeah, as much as people in the room, we can't
Speaker 5: make the wrong decision, but you've made the wrong decision
Speaker 5: again and again and again, and now we're like, we
Speaker 5: want to see the approach. We want to understand how
Speaker 5: this is going to work in the face of unemployment,
Speaker 5: in the face of like the country has not been
Speaker 5: in good economic trajectory for a while now, and that
Speaker 5: those economic shocks can be felt. A lot of people
Speaker 5: are closing down their businesses, a lot of people are downsizing,
Speaker 5: which means it's less people employed. Even the beauty industry,
Speaker 5: which is mostly like run on inputs because they're charging
Speaker 5: so much input duty. The beauty industry can't even stand
Speaker 5: on its own. So people are not just buying less makeup.
Speaker 5: It's like people who are those stores and any of
Speaker 5: those kinds of businesses can't even have the like their
Speaker 5: person who comes to get their job days.
Speaker 3: It becomes a bit of a problem.
Speaker 5: So everyone is like, if you're going to charge us more,
Speaker 5: you have to have an infrastructure.
Speaker 3: That works for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Another tax that they're adding on the finance bill is
Speaker 5: the input duty fee to like sanitary towers, wheelchair higher,
Speaker 5: like because like Kenya doesn't manufacture a lot of stuff.
Speaker 5: So you find like our like the pad manufacturing industry
Speaker 5: in Kenya, like sanitary towers, only two percent are manufactured here,
Speaker 5: like a big chunk comes from outside, and they want
Speaker 5: to increase their input duty on that. So that means
Speaker 5: the pads in the market are going to be even
Speaker 5: more expensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and that's something that like that that's not
Speaker 2: that's not a like that's that's that's that's not a
Speaker 2: luxury good. You just need that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So everyone was like, Okay, I guess that we'll just
Speaker 5: have to stop having periods. Is like that that's what
Speaker 5: you're saying, Like we're gonna have to magically, Yeah, we're
Speaker 5: gonna have to figure out magically with nature to just
Speaker 5: stop having periods because you guys want to tax us
Speaker 5: in this particular way, and it's it's not just like
Speaker 5: the small things, because like the problem with the Kenyon's.
Speaker 3: Piece, especially sensitive issues. So our.
Speaker 5: Our third president, his name was Mike Baki, was the first,
Speaker 5: one of the first presidents in the world to remove
Speaker 5: v ty on sanitary towers. Like he was seen as
Speaker 5: like someone who's setting an example for so many people.
Speaker 5: And then the fact that this is happening when this
Speaker 5: country was seen as like a chin setter to like
Speaker 5: not just African countries, but other countries around the world
Speaker 5: when it comes to like very important goods, it was
Speaker 5: felt like we were going backwards and not in a way.
Speaker 3: It's not like we didn't have an example to follow.
Speaker 5: We actually did have a set president on like how
Speaker 5: an economy is supposed to work.
Speaker 3: So everyone who's grown up in this particular environment.
Speaker 5: Where they felt safe and protected by the government and
Speaker 5: like the government taking they live on very important issues
Speaker 5: was like, you can't say building Kenya, buying Kenya is
Speaker 5: a top priority for you when even electricity costs are expensive. Yeah,
Speaker 5: because even this will adds like a fuel levy tax
Speaker 5: it it's going up by seven shillings, which is way
Speaker 5: too expensive. So you pay for your fuel, but like
Speaker 5: most of the charges on the fuel is just their
Speaker 5: levies and taxes, and they're adding a little bit more year.
Speaker 2: And it seems like from the way that these are
Speaker 2: being structured that you know, I mean, one of the
Speaker 2: things with direct like I guess we call them sales
Speaker 2: taxes here, is that they're incredibly regressive. The people who
Speaker 2: get affected the most by it are the people who
Speaker 2: you don't have that much money versus something like doing
Speaker 2: you know, versus doing like an income tax, and like
Speaker 2: the people who are the highest owners. This is the
Speaker 2: burden of this falls entirely on people who are poor
Speaker 2: and can't afford it.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's I think it's very scary to think a
Speaker 5: lot of our poll titians because they get paid with
Speaker 5: tax payer money, and what they did when during when
Speaker 5: they were writing, when they were contributing to the budget,
Speaker 5: they were like, we want, we want this and this,
Speaker 5: want to be added for this and this thing.
Speaker 3: But the problem is, like when you look.
Speaker 5: Deep down what they're looking for, they don't want to
Speaker 5: pay taxes off of their salaries. They want to find
Speaker 5: a way for taxpayers to pay for part of the
Speaker 5: taxes that are being added so that they.
Speaker 3: Don't have to lose money.
Speaker 5: And every yeah, everyone is like, we know you're budgeting
Speaker 5: for corruption. We can see you, we can see still,
Speaker 5: we can see you still, and we don't want to
Speaker 5: be part of that. And now to them, it was like,
Speaker 5: we're being aggressive because we want we want them to
Speaker 5: be held accountable for their very punitive for the punitive
Speaker 5: measures that they're sending to like regular opinions. As you said,
Speaker 5: a lot of sales taxes affect every day before and
Speaker 5: we don't know how else to stop it. And I
Speaker 5: think that's why the protesters. So they're catching fire. Everyone
Speaker 5: wants to be out in the street.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we are going to we are going to
Speaker 2: come back and talk about the protests in a second,
Speaker 2: but first I here, here are some products and services
Speaker 2: that are I don't know, probably also being taxed.
Speaker 4: But all right, and we are back. Yeah, So okay.
Speaker 2: I think I think people should should have like a
Speaker 2: decent understanding of the fact that these taxes are these
Speaker 2: are taxes on basic commodities that people need. And that's
Speaker 2: one of the easiest ways to start a protest movement
Speaker 2: is to suddenly make it too expensive to live. So
Speaker 2: let's talk about who, Yeah, how how these protests sort
Speaker 2: of started and how they've been being organized.
Speaker 5: My issues that we can't really say how the protests started,
Speaker 5: but there was a lot of anger by Kenyons online
Speaker 5: because Kenyons are chronically online, like especially the younger generation,
Speaker 5: a lot of people have cell phones, a lot of
Speaker 5: people are not tuned into the news really, but the
Speaker 5: information sharing happens where like when a clip from the
Speaker 5: news is cut put on tiptop, people's see it like
Speaker 5: this is happening, so so could get angry and then
Speaker 5: they shared. So what happened with the the finance book.
Speaker 5: People would cut very little clips from the news and
Speaker 5: then someone would help put it in context. So that's
Speaker 5: where my channel comes in, where I'm not just using
Speaker 5: the news clips and provide evidence like I've go through
Speaker 5: the finance built and then even consult with people who
Speaker 5: are in like like ask lawyers on Twitter, like people
Speaker 5: who have resources and understand the law or like what
Speaker 5: that would mean for everyday canyons. I would literally reach
Speaker 5: out and it got to a point where I am
Speaker 5: now in communication with the right channels, like you can
Speaker 5: directly ask how this would impact people, like if they
Speaker 5: tax bread more or like refuse to make it easier
Speaker 5: for suppliers to get items for the supply chain. How
Speaker 5: does this affect everyday people? So that helps bridge the
Speaker 5: graph of information and now with more people critically not
Speaker 5: just looking at the news but finding the evidence for themselves.
Speaker 3: Really have helped us get to a point where when
Speaker 3: you share, we are protesting about this issue. This is
Speaker 3: where we're going, this is what's happening, this this will
Speaker 3: happen in a certain town. So like Nairobi had its
Speaker 3: own occupy parliament reject the financial demonstration, it happened in
Speaker 3: Mombasa too, it happened in neary Elder at all these
Speaker 3: smaller towns where people were living. But they are people
Speaker 3: from rural areas, they won't really care. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: you don't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And also something that's really magical that's happened. A lot
Speaker 5: of Canons were like, Okay, maybe there there are a
Speaker 5: lot of Kenyons who live in rural areas who don't
Speaker 5: have media that doesn't cater to traditional listeners, like people
Speaker 5: who only speak certain languages so vernacular stations. So people
Speaker 5: started using TikTok to do direct translation. It's like this
Speaker 5: is the script, Yes, this is the script for the
Speaker 5: for the financi buildings. Are the taxes being added. This
Speaker 5: is the tax on bread, This is the tax on
Speaker 5: your on your vehicle. This is the tax that will
Speaker 5: happen on like period and sanitary paths and diapers and everything.
Speaker 5: So someone does the whole we've done in their vernacular
Speaker 5: language and they share it on their family WhatsApp groups
Speaker 5: called penance love wksapp.
Speaker 3: That's why if.
Speaker 5: You're if you want to do anything proper Ganda like,
Speaker 5: you can easily both on WhatsApp. Before messages are crazy.
Speaker 5: So because like WhatsApp is mostly co opted by antis
Speaker 5: and moms and people who love to share. Please go
Speaker 5: to chat share share these to seven friends. People took
Speaker 5: that Monday to where they send it to their moms
Speaker 5: and then have it shared like seven of their friends
Speaker 5: who don't understand what the finance BILLI entails. And that
Speaker 5: is really changing the landscape of like who gets to
Speaker 5: interpret the bills, who gets to understand how.
Speaker 3: It influences them.
Speaker 5: And it's been very very effective, So people who are
Speaker 5: passive are more and more understanding of like why everyone
Speaker 5: is on the streets.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it almost seems like there isn't
Speaker 2: there's kind of a I don't know, it's like a
Speaker 2: TikTok think tank that's been sort of doing this valuation
Speaker 2: that has been spread through That's that's really cool.
Speaker 5: I'm just saying, it's absolutely lovely to see because like
Speaker 5: tribalism has been a tool that's been wielded, especially during elections,
Speaker 5: to make Kenyons look like they don't care about each
Speaker 5: other and they can't go beyond their differences.
Speaker 3: And this time it's like, yeah, we do.
Speaker 5: Have language barriers, but we're not going to let that
Speaker 5: affect us negatively. We're going to figure out our way
Speaker 5: through the noise before they start co opting those spaces
Speaker 5: and start saying, oh, gen z kids are lying or
Speaker 5: millennials are just started getting money, so why would they
Speaker 5: care about taxes? And so everyone is making sure that
Speaker 5: those spaces are not corrupted.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like a really sort of incredible popular
Speaker 2: education thing that's.
Speaker 4: Been empowering this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to, I guess talk about I
Speaker 2: mean one of the things that I think maybe kind
Speaker 2: of breached the I don't know. Calling it like the
Speaker 2: Great Firewall is exactly right, but it's like I think
Speaker 2: one of I think one of the parts of this
Speaker 2: that has gotten a little bit of play in the
Speaker 2: sort of media over here has been the police response,
Speaker 2: which has been terrible. Yeah, we talked about what the
Speaker 2: cops have been.
Speaker 5: Doing, Okay, in Kenya protests Historically, protests have always been
Speaker 5: extremely violent, Like during the Moi era, people used to
Speaker 5: get beaten, alocked. Moy was also president. He was in
Speaker 5: office for twenty four years, so he.
Speaker 3: Was a powerholder. I use those words, there's a powerholder.
Speaker 3: He didn't want to go anywhere.
Speaker 5: He wanted to stay in power for as long as
Speaker 5: he could and to counter anyone who would go against him.
Speaker 5: People were tortured, people were disappeared, people were killed and
Speaker 5: like dropped in forest. Many families couldn't find their members,
Speaker 5: especially if they went out of protest or do anything.
Speaker 5: That's why Wangaimata is story who's like one of the
Speaker 5: biggest environment total champions the world has ever seen. Her
Speaker 5: story was so unique because in the face of the
Speaker 5: most brutal dictators countries, every thing, she showed up and
Speaker 5: like she didn't just disagree but she bought back, and
Speaker 5: she did she use the same tactics that people are
Speaker 5: using now. She informed the very ignored part of the
Speaker 5: population to get the information across that if they start
Speaker 5: taking away your land and patting down your tree and
Speaker 5: you won't be able to farm, I won't have anything.
Speaker 5: This is this whole place is going to be at
Speaker 5: their set in a couple of years. So everyone was
Speaker 5: panicking because like, land is a very sensitive issue yea.
Speaker 3: And that's why the movement worked.
Speaker 5: So well because she was not speaking she was not
Speaker 5: just speaking against authority that she was going to like
Speaker 5: the people who who were going to be affected the most.
Speaker 5: And during those protests, she was beaten up. Her hair
Speaker 5: was like young to her head. It was very Yeah,
Speaker 5: it was very graphic and very painful. Like he watched
Speaker 5: these videos and they're like who does something like this?
Speaker 5: And now it's being replicated. Sorry, it was replicated again
Speaker 5: like throughout his presidency, But throughout the years, a lot
Speaker 5: of civil rights movements and all the community based organizations
Speaker 5: like came together and they will still protest about stuff,
Speaker 5: but the issue it had moved on from like large
Speaker 5: protests to even kmalla protests being like they would send
Speaker 5: the police to bitter people who are speaking up about
Speaker 5: any issue. And usually, because like you're in smaller communities,
Speaker 5: there's no way to track. So if someone dies in
Speaker 5: Kibera and it's a slam area and it's mostly disenfranchised,
Speaker 5: the community organizations they are no they try and find
Speaker 5: justice for the family, but because our police are mostly
Speaker 5: held you can't tell them to account because they work
Speaker 5: for the state, it's very hard to get any form
Speaker 5: of justice. But this time was it last year when
Speaker 5: people were protesting about the cost of living and I
Speaker 5: think it was just shortly before the finance built twenty
Speaker 5: twenty three past people were protesting, People were out and
Speaker 5: they were angry about everything, and people were beaten up.
Speaker 5: Someone lost their two year old child because the child
Speaker 5: was beaten by the police.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like there's a woman who lost her son. Because
Speaker 5: usually when you're at protests, sometimes the people who are
Speaker 5: passing by, but because you're there and the police are there,
Speaker 5: they end up treating.
Speaker 3: Even if you're not past year, you're not back to
Speaker 3: the process.
Speaker 5: So that there's a woman who ended up losing her
Speaker 5: son last year to the protest, and her adopted son too,
Speaker 5: and then this this year, like a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 5: she died in a flood in my dad so yan
Speaker 5: and then yes, thenas are like seeing their terrible nature
Speaker 5: of like how state violence kIPS continuing. So this time
Speaker 5: when the purchase are being organized, everyone is like, make
Speaker 5: sure you're peaceful, don't carry in stones because like stones
Speaker 5: like stones, you don't even pick up yours and like
Speaker 5: throw it back and everything. And this time everyone is like,
Speaker 5: just make sure you're very peaceful, only use your voice,
Speaker 5: protect each other. Like a lot of the announcements around
Speaker 5: the protests like make sure it's paceful so that they
Speaker 5: don't have an exclu to say that you are out
Speaker 5: on the streets doing something illegal. You don't attack shots,
Speaker 5: you don't try and force yourself into anyone's premises.
Speaker 3: And what happened that was very.
Speaker 5: Beautiful this year is like the establishments, like the one
Speaker 5: I'm in right now was helped protect citizens who were protesting.
Speaker 3: So kids would be out of this. So they start
Speaker 3: getting tears and like they.
Speaker 5: Would open the door, people would come in and they
Speaker 5: would close the door until they go away. Yeah, so
Speaker 5: you find establishments are working to not just protect people
Speaker 5: but also to be part of showing like this is
Speaker 5: our premises. It's not being looted, it's not being destroyed,
Speaker 5: because destruction of property apparently is a bigger problem than
Speaker 5: you losing your life. So most people felt they were
Speaker 5: safe at the protest, and they also felt like they
Speaker 5: were seen by other protesters. So it was largely peaceful,
Speaker 5: very well coordinated. There's information on how to get medical
Speaker 5: help or in case you're arrested, how to get as
Speaker 5: bigal assistance. So every single element is like we're not
Speaker 5: just going to band out of like going into the streets,
Speaker 5: but making.
Speaker 3: Sure everyone returns home safely.
Speaker 5: A lot of the protests in the past where they
Speaker 5: got a little violent because maybe some of the protesters
Speaker 5: went road and obviously their politicians love to use bad
Speaker 5: actors where they implant a bunch of people who go
Speaker 5: and destroy business premises, and then it looks like the
Speaker 5: protesters didn't come there to actually protest, they were there
Speaker 5: for their.
Speaker 3: Own selfish reasons.
Speaker 5: So this time what happened is like a lot of
Speaker 5: the protesters were given the right information on how to
Speaker 5: steal peaceful.
Speaker 3: It's like these are the streets to use, these are the.
Speaker 5: Meeting points, These are the contact people for in case
Speaker 5: you get injured. There is this medics in case you
Speaker 5: get arrested. These are the lawyers in case your friend disappears.
Speaker 5: Make sure they have a life location on so we
Speaker 5: can track them and everything. So it was widely successful
Speaker 5: because that kind of peaceful and well coordinated blue navigated
Speaker 5: towards spaces that were if not before, like the safety
Speaker 5: of everyone was a priority. And because our leaders can't
Speaker 5: really find who started the protests because it's mostly like
Speaker 5: a group who led the movement, they started abducting.
Speaker 3: Who they feel like our community leaders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I guess that that's something I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask about, was like, has the police response actually
Speaker 2: been any less bad this time that it has been
Speaker 2: with other So this.
Speaker 3: Time on Thursday they shot.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they shot into a crowd and one of them
Speaker 5: ended up shooting at twenty four year old and he
Speaker 5: bled out he died. His name is Rex Massi. And
Speaker 5: then another kid was also short. The name is Evans
Speaker 5: Kiragu was also short, and I think they were trying
Speaker 5: to get him help and everything, but he died yesterday,
Speaker 5: I believe. And there's still other prochesters who are yet
Speaker 5: to be found. And then yesterday morning there's a very
Speaker 5: popular Twitter personality who was disappeared, like they kind of
Speaker 5: appointed him here. But then Kenyons held a space online
Speaker 5: for over six hours and they're like they were dragging
Speaker 5: government officials and like, if you people don't return this
Speaker 5: particular person, we will find you.
Speaker 4: It was very.
Speaker 5: Particularly funny because Kenyans, you would think this younger generation
Speaker 5: people don't have concentration issues. No one is going to
Speaker 5: listen to us three, but like everyone was like online
Speaker 5: and they were paying attention to like every single speaker
Speaker 5: just to keep the space longer, holding space for the
Speaker 5: person who would be taken. And he was found his lawyers,
Speaker 5: the lawyers, sorry, the lawyers in charge found him and
Speaker 5: they went and like they went and got him and
Speaker 5: he went back safe, but obviously you could see he
Speaker 5: was visibly shaken.
Speaker 3: His creetur name is crazy and Aurobian. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And then now today they took one of the doctors
Speaker 5: was organizing for a blad drive in like in a
Speaker 5: certain up market area. They just picked him out and
Speaker 5: like no one has been able to find him until now.
Speaker 5: So people are still advocating to like get him back,
Speaker 5: and a lot of big personalities are making phone calls.
Speaker 5: Lawyers are showing up, like if you see this particular car,
Speaker 5: if you if you sit in your location, timely informants
Speaker 5: share the information. So everyone who's online is trying to
Speaker 5: get the right information to make sure that that doctor
Speaker 5: is brought back. And yeah, ironically that doctor is actually
Speaker 5: unemployed because the the government is refusing to hire new
Speaker 5: medical personnel because like it's too expensive. When you see
Speaker 5: them like driving around the new cars and has like
Speaker 5: very expensive shoes, and everyone is like, your shoes could
Speaker 5: literally pay like three doctors salary.
Speaker 3: High higher the right thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I can ends up pushing to make sure
Speaker 5: everyone is safe and everyone who's lost, especially big Twitter
Speaker 5: influencers and big media personalities and influencers are coming together
Speaker 5: to make sure they use their platforms to help find
Speaker 5: anyone who's not.
Speaker 3: Who's been disappeared or been abducted.
Speaker 6: Yeah, where do you think the difference of going from here?
Speaker 2: I know I should well, actually I think I think
Speaker 2: I've lost track of what reading of the bill they're
Speaker 2: at right now.
Speaker 4: Was I thought it was the third reading.
Speaker 5: Or it's a it's at the committee stage. So at
Speaker 5: the committee stage they go through the every single class
Speaker 5: and they try to justify where they should keep it
Speaker 5: or whether they're going to disband it. But everyone is
Speaker 5: just like, we don't want any of this because some
Speaker 5: of the bill is if there's a there's a part
Speaker 5: of the bill that I didn't mention where the Kenya
Speaker 5: Revenue Authority is supposed to go through Kenyon's personal data
Speaker 5: to see your dodge in taxes.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, that's ridiculous because a.
Speaker 5: Lot of people in Kenya are supported by a family member.
Speaker 5: So you find you find if I have money, I'll
Speaker 5: send it to my kids, and then my kids made
Speaker 5: might body to their friends who's grabbed in trouble.
Speaker 3: So if it looks like I have money coming in, it's.
Speaker 5: Probably maybe because of like a family contribution, a personal contribution.
Speaker 5: So they want to charge taxes on that, and it
Speaker 5: actually makes no sense. So it looks like they're tracking
Speaker 5: how much money you look like you have. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: it looks like they're checking how much money you look
Speaker 5: like you have, and then they want to tax you
Speaker 5: on that or like say you're evading taxes. And it's
Speaker 5: scaring a lot of people because once that happens, it
Speaker 5: feels like there's no safety in anything you have.
Speaker 2: So I guess so from from there, So is the
Speaker 2: strategy right now based around sort of trying to get
Speaker 2: these trying to get the committees to just like to
Speaker 2: have this bill sort of die there or.
Speaker 5: A lot of us are trying to make sure the
Speaker 5: bill doesn't go any further than it is, and everyone
Speaker 5: is tracking their emp. So what happened even before the
Speaker 5: protest people started sharing their MP's numbers. Every single person
Speaker 5: would pind like a member of parliament's numbers. Then we're like,
Speaker 5: if you if this is your relative, please give it
Speaker 5: to us. If it is your side, cheek or whatever
Speaker 5: whatever where you.
Speaker 3: Relate to this person.
Speaker 5: Because it's government officials, their numbers should be public anyway,
Speaker 5: citizens should be able to reach them. Yeah, And because
Speaker 5: they wanted to hide behind their big, big cause and
Speaker 5: big houses, we were like, Okay, we're going to find
Speaker 5: you where you're at, and we're going to text you
Speaker 5: and we're going to tell you to vote. And most
Speaker 5: of the implies were very dismissing. They were like the
Speaker 5: party that i'm that's back in me is the one
Speaker 5: that got me into office. It's like, no, people voted
Speaker 5: for you, you should represent their views. So a lot
Speaker 5: of canyons held the lightry like I don't care what
Speaker 5: your boss is telling you or what party this is,
Speaker 5: you have.
Speaker 3: To vote with us. So a lot of.
Speaker 5: MPs who were shamed online some of them had to
Speaker 5: but like they changed their votes.
Speaker 3: Incredible, Yes, yeah we should.
Speaker 5: It is more often, So that's really that really gave
Speaker 5: hope to a lot of canyons who are feeling like
Speaker 5: maybe their work isn't amounting too much. But we lost,
Speaker 5: we lost that one batty. A lot of us ended
Speaker 5: up using the battle to the second reading because many
Speaker 5: of the EMPs. So there's this fund called the cdf
Speaker 5: IDIF fund. It's the constituency the Constituency Development Fund that
Speaker 5: emplase kind of use it like their personal bank account.
Speaker 5: So members of parliament, Yeah, members of Parliament will get
Speaker 5: the CDIF fund and then they'll use it to go
Speaker 5: and like so it's supposed to actually take care of
Speaker 5: like bursaries or any county emergencies directly affecting constituents. But
Speaker 5: what EMP is doing is that like they wield it
Speaker 5: as a personal bank account. So it's like you have
Speaker 5: to do a lot of us kissing and a lot
Speaker 5: of performative nonsense for you to even get some of
Speaker 5: the money, and a lot of people don't actually end
Speaker 5: up getting the money. So what the budget makers did.
Speaker 5: They decided to talk up the CDF fund so that
Speaker 5: more mpries have more money. And usually they just pocket
Speaker 5: that money. So they were like, Okay, I feel like
Speaker 5: my budgeted corruption has hit the account.
Speaker 3: I don't need to do the right thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's just just literally a bribe exactly.
Speaker 5: It's like the best way is like and they're like, no,
Speaker 5: I'll have more money to take care of the constituency.
Speaker 5: It's like, no, you steal this money anyway. You guys
Speaker 5: have any You're not going to do a conscience today
Speaker 5: just because you have more money.
Speaker 3: So most of all are trying to get the parts
Speaker 3: of the budget we've seen it the like put into
Speaker 3: efforts that go directly to education and healthcare, even it's
Speaker 3: even if it's directly to the school instead of the individual. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that that will help cut down on that kind
Speaker 3: of corruption that a lot of empies run away.
Speaker 5: And I think that's scaring some of them. And we're hoping,
Speaker 5: we're hoping to get more people to be to push
Speaker 5: their members of parliament or any nominated representatives to recognize
Speaker 5: that all these items that they're voting for it's not
Speaker 5: just going to affect us, but will affect them and
Speaker 5: the money that they're hoping to steal. So if you're
Speaker 5: going to steal progress, you don't get any of.
Speaker 3: The money here.
Speaker 2: Incredible. Yeah, is there is there anything else you want
Speaker 2: to add before you wrap up?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll say usually when a lot of stories and
Speaker 5: like the African continent are covered, it's usually like Africans
Speaker 5: vote for bad leaders, and well that is true.
Speaker 3: Most of the times, people don't feel like they have
Speaker 3: an option.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you know, if you you listeners statistically
Speaker 2: are probably either an America or a brain. So like
Speaker 2: you you you know exactly what that's like.
Speaker 7: You're like someone who just you have Trump and he's
Speaker 7: like a functure now right now? So yeah, because the
Speaker 7: little so On TikTok, something happened I think.
Speaker 5: Yesterday or something where people were like, how the Kenyans
Speaker 5: vote for this person? He's such a very dark criminal
Speaker 5: past and everyone was like, have you guys seen yourselves?
Speaker 3: You come there?
Speaker 5: There are no how everyone makes very foolish mistakes, and
Speaker 5: all of us look like we don't know what to
Speaker 5: do to make sure people like that don't ascend into power,
Speaker 5: because like group things sometimes gets us to like very
Speaker 5: dangerous places. It happens everywhere. No one is any less affected.
Speaker 5: If someone who you hope to lose gains power, like you,
Speaker 5: you're all in deep trouble. Like no one is on
Speaker 5: a higher pedestal than the other. All of you can
Speaker 5: actually lose a lot. And one of the things that
Speaker 5: we are trying to remind each other's we're trying not
Speaker 5: to get to this space. So what canons are trying
Speaker 5: to pocuse like a direct manifesto where any person who's
Speaker 5: running has to have like a close in their manifesto
Speaker 5: that is going to even be turned into like a
Speaker 5: policy and law where if you steal any money or
Speaker 5: you co found doing anything corrupt, you have to like
Speaker 5: remove yourself from office immediately, like there's no bargaining to
Speaker 5: do whatsoever, Like you have to leave office immediately.
Speaker 3: Then we're going to seize all your property like anything.
Speaker 5: Yes, Like if you're going to get into power, make
Speaker 5: sure the salary you're getting is in now. If you
Speaker 5: have any ambitions, let them die now, like do everything
Speaker 5: before you get into And I think that's so encouraging
Speaker 5: to see because everyone is not just looking at them
Speaker 5: now and like all these bad taxes and the bad
Speaker 5: leadership that we have, but also looking to the future
Speaker 5: of like how do we make sure we don't get
Speaker 5: here again? So that's really encouraging to see everyone is
Speaker 5: making sure that they hold people to account across the board,
Speaker 5: like if your protesters, make sure you're safe, make sure
Speaker 5: you know this information. But also for the future, this
Speaker 5: is what we want. So it's not just like we're
Speaker 5: moving bad taxes, but if we're going to pay taxes,
Speaker 5: are they going to be used? And how are we
Speaker 5: going to make sure that the future of the country
Speaker 5: is being protected by collective interest and not just like
Speaker 5: individual worship, which has been a very very big problem
Speaker 5: in Kenyan culture because like over here musicians are barely celebrities,
Speaker 5: but a politician would work in here and like people
Speaker 5: would like lose arms and legs just see hi.
Speaker 3: So we're trying to make sure we fix that too.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I guess if people listening to just want
Speaker 2: to try to help support the protests, are there are
Speaker 2: there stuff that other things they can do and places
Speaker 2: they can go to find more information.
Speaker 5: And because a lot of it is group organized, I
Speaker 5: have to find the the information.
Speaker 3: I could send it to you. Ye, put it.
Speaker 7: Yes, I don't know if at the top of my head,
Speaker 7: because I thinking.
Speaker 5: Like most people would like to do individual because a
Speaker 5: lot of we have a lot of mobile money transfer
Speaker 5: which are usually direct to the person, so that it
Speaker 5: doesn't work with various channels and then.
Speaker 3: People end up misappropriating or stealing.
Speaker 5: So if community leeds, so I'll have to find the
Speaker 5: information and then sharing.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and okay, if people want to find you on
Speaker 2: the internet, where can they do that?
Speaker 5: So on Instagram and tip talk, it's fake work with
Speaker 5: just Tin like at people with just Tin like the
Speaker 5: full handle. On Twitter it's at official f w w J,
Speaker 5: So it's official f w w J, which is just
Speaker 5: people with Justine official people.
Speaker 2: For Yeah, we'll get we'll get that in the description too.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do have my personal effought, but I don't
Speaker 5: know if I want to give that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know I can still give it.
Speaker 5: It's at justin wonder j U S T I N
Speaker 5: E W A N D A.
Speaker 2: Yeah cool, Yeah, Justine, Thank you so much. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for coming on the show talking about this
Speaker 2: has been great.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me in, letting me
Speaker 3: like just run my mother out work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and good, good, good luck to you all. Hope
Speaker 2: you hope you stop them and bring them all down.
Speaker 3: I really hope we do. If we don't, it's gonna
Speaker 3: be so sad. Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah of course, and yeah, let's spinnak it off here
Speaker 2: and you too can go make your politicians' lives miserable.
Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.