1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,636 --> 00:00:33,156 Speaker 2: I remember I was going out of New York City 3 00:00:33,196 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 2: on a reporting trip and I was a little early, 4 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 2: so I went into a teeny tiny bodiga in the corner, 5 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:42,716 Speaker 2: and I overheard a conversation between one of the bodega 6 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 2: owners and a customer, and he was talking about the clementines, 7 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:50,476 Speaker 2: and he said to the customer, I remembered how much 8 00:00:50,516 --> 00:00:53,116 Speaker 2: you liked them last time when I saw them in 9 00:00:53,156 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 2: the fruit market, I knew I had to bring them 10 00:00:55,356 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 2: in for you. It was such a reminder that in 11 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 2: this world of disconnection and loneliness, that something as simple 12 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 2: as a clementine can remind us that we are valued, 13 00:01:09,236 --> 00:01:12,596 Speaker 2: that our preferences matter, that we matter, we are worthy 14 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 2: of being remembered. 15 00:01:14,636 --> 00:01:18,196 Speaker 1: Journalist and best selling author Jenny Wallace is an expert 16 00:01:18,236 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: on a concept called mattering. Mattering is the feeling that 17 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 1: we're valued by others and that we have value to contribute. 18 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:30,396 Speaker 2: I just I left that bodega with this really warm, 19 00:01:30,916 --> 00:01:35,036 Speaker 2: deep sense of mattering that even just witnessing it, I 20 00:01:35,036 --> 00:01:36,796 Speaker 2: felt it in my own soul. 21 00:01:41,076 --> 00:01:45,156 Speaker 1: On today's show, The Life Changing Impact of Showing People 22 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: they Matter, I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, 23 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 24 00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 25 00:01:57,436 --> 00:02:07,956 Speaker 1: face of a big change. Every now and then, I 26 00:02:07,996 --> 00:02:11,316 Speaker 1: get a message from someone that makes me feel especially seen. 27 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: It's often about something small or random, like remembering a 28 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:18,916 Speaker 1: joke I told years ago, or suggesting a bag of 29 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 1: Jalapino kettle chips after a long day because they know 30 00:02:22,476 --> 00:02:25,916 Speaker 1: I have a salty tooth, not a sweet one. These 31 00:02:25,956 --> 00:02:29,996 Speaker 1: thoughtful notes, whether it's a specific recollection or appreciation of 32 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: one of my quirks, have really touched me. Reading Jenny's book, Mattering, 33 00:02:35,396 --> 00:02:38,116 Speaker 1: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose, 34 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: gave me new language to explain why these kinds of 35 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 1: messages make me feel so warm and fuzzy. It's because 36 00:02:45,716 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 1: they make me feel like even the smallest things about 37 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: me are worth remembering. It sounds so simple to show 38 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:56,036 Speaker 1: others that they matter to us, but in reality, Jenny says, 39 00:02:56,116 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 1: we often forget to prioritize this. We started our conversation 40 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 1: by establishing the basics. When you talk about mattering, what 41 00:03:04,876 --> 00:03:07,716 Speaker 1: exactly do you mean by that? How do you define it? Yeah? 42 00:03:07,756 --> 00:03:10,516 Speaker 2: So, researchers who study it vary in their definition, but 43 00:03:10,556 --> 00:03:12,556 Speaker 2: the one that resonates the most with me is the 44 00:03:12,596 --> 00:03:17,116 Speaker 2: idea of feeling valued and having an opportunity to add 45 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 2: value to the world. So mattering encompasses those two feelings 46 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:25,596 Speaker 2: that you're valued by your family, your friends, your community, 47 00:03:25,636 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 2: and that you have an opportunity to add value back. 48 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 2: And actually they feed on each other. So the more 49 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:34,596 Speaker 2: you feel valued, the more likely you are to have 50 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 2: the confidence to add value, and the more you add value, 51 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:39,956 Speaker 2: the more you feel valued. 52 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: I love the virtuous cycle. So when it comes to 53 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 1: mattering to others and to ourselves, how can we fully 54 00:03:47,036 --> 00:03:49,076 Speaker 1: grasp what this means? Right? For a lot of people, 55 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:54,076 Speaker 1: they're hearing about mattering for the first time and they're wondering, Okay, Jenny, 56 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 1: what does that actually look like? 57 00:03:55,956 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 2: Right? So, researchers have been studying mattering since the nineteen eighties, 58 00:04:00,116 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 2: and they have found key ingredients to experiencing this feeling 59 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:07,836 Speaker 2: of mattering. And I've put it together under what I 60 00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 2: call the said framework. It's just easy for me to 61 00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 2: remember that way said. So, s is feeling significant or important? 62 00:04:16,916 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 2: What does that mean? That means? You know, yes, it 63 00:04:19,796 --> 00:04:24,556 Speaker 2: means being celebrated on your birthday or being rewarded at 64 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 2: the office for hard work. But as humans, we crave 65 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:30,676 Speaker 2: to matter in the every day. We want to matter 66 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:34,996 Speaker 2: in the mundane. It's the idea that you remember my quirks, 67 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 2: that you think of me and you miss me when 68 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:41,756 Speaker 2: I'm not there. That if it's a mom's night out 69 00:04:41,756 --> 00:04:44,236 Speaker 2: and I'm missing, I'm a missing member of the group. 70 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 2: That someone texts me and says, ah, it's not the 71 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:49,636 Speaker 2: same without you here. That's how we feel important or 72 00:04:49,676 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 2: significant appreciated. Is this feeling that we are appreciated for 73 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:59,756 Speaker 2: who we are, not just what we do. So let's 74 00:04:59,756 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 2: say a dear friend buys you a sweater. You could 75 00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 2: appreciate them by saying, what a generous gift, thank you 76 00:05:05,676 --> 00:05:08,236 Speaker 2: for this gorgeous sweater. But the way that we really 77 00:05:08,356 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 2: feed a sense of mattering in our friend is when 78 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 2: we talk about the doer, not just the deed. So 79 00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 2: it might sound like, oh my gosh, Katie, this is 80 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 2: my favorite color. How you always are so thoughtful, you 81 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:25,236 Speaker 2: remember everything about me, and I love that you didn't 82 00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 2: get me the crew neck. You know that I love 83 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:30,236 Speaker 2: my cardigans. Thank you for being such a generous friend. 84 00:05:30,556 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 2: So it's the idea of appreciating somebody for their generosity 85 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 2: and their thoughtfulness. Invested in is the idea that you 86 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 2: have people in your life who are invested in your goals, 87 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:43,396 Speaker 2: who are there to support you through your goals and 88 00:05:43,436 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 2: to support you through setbacks, that you are worthy of 89 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 2: investment and growth and dependent on. Is this idea that 90 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 2: we are relied on in ways that are sustainable, that 91 00:05:54,036 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 2: people depend on us. 92 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 1: So when we think about mattering, how should we think 93 00:05:58,796 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 1: about it as distinct from say, having a purpose. So 94 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:06,156 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of conversations out there about the best 95 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,236 Speaker 1: way to find meaning in your life is to identify 96 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 1: what it is you should be doing right, find something 97 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:13,876 Speaker 1: that fills you with a sense of purpose and meaning. 98 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:14,756 Speaker 1: How is this different? 99 00:06:15,356 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 2: What mattering does is it goes deeper. So, for example, 100 00:06:18,996 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 2: you can belong to a classroom or a workplace, the 101 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 2: accounting department, your neighborhood, but not feel like you matter 102 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 2: to the people there. You can feel a sense of purpose, 103 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:34,356 Speaker 2: you can feel a sense of meaning in your life, 104 00:06:34,836 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 2: but if you don't see how your purpose actually makes 105 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:43,076 Speaker 2: a positive impact, you can burn out. So mattering allows 106 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: these other needs to be met in ways that go deeper, 107 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:51,676 Speaker 2: you know. I think about Oprah who talked about how 108 00:06:51,796 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 2: the first person who made her feel like she mattered 109 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 2: in her life was Missus Duncan, one of her teachers, 110 00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:00,356 Speaker 2: because Missus Duncan was the first one who truly saw 111 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 2: Oprah for who she was, and importantly, she also gave 112 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 2: Oprah a classroom task. I think it was watering the plants. 113 00:07:06,916 --> 00:07:09,476 Speaker 2: I'm not really sure, but when you have people in 114 00:07:09,476 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 2: your life who make you feel like you matter, those 115 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 2: moments are sticky. They stick with transformative. They are formative, 116 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:21,036 Speaker 2: and that is because we have evolved to crave to 117 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 2: pursue mattering, and so when we feel like we matter, 118 00:07:25,116 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 2: we show up to the world in positive ways. We 119 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 2: want to contribute and engage and connect with people. But 120 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 2: when we are made to feel like we don't matter, 121 00:07:34,756 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 2: we might withdraw, become anxious, depressed, turn to substances to 122 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 2: try to alleviate that suffering. This need to matter is 123 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 2: so deeply ingrained in us that people will go to 124 00:07:46,156 --> 00:07:48,516 Speaker 2: great lengths to prove they matter. 125 00:07:49,276 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just remembering. When I was in elementary school, 126 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:55,076 Speaker 1: I was bullied by some of the girls in my 127 00:07:55,116 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 1: neighborhood and I just remember writing my sixth grade teacher 128 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 1: and note I actually found it recently in my notebook, 129 00:08:03,516 --> 00:08:06,276 Speaker 1: where I said, you know, I'm feeling really sad and 130 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 1: really anxious because this person said really really mean things 131 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: to me and I just want to be nice, but 132 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: it's just really hurting my feelings. And she just made 133 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 1: a point of writing me this beautiful letter back that 134 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:20,676 Speaker 1: was basically like, you know, don't change, Maya, You're good 135 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:23,436 Speaker 1: as you are, and it was it was so meaningful 136 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:26,476 Speaker 1: to me to have had that correspondence with her, you know. 137 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:28,796 Speaker 2: So meaningful that you saved it all these years. 138 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. As I was moving into my new place, 139 00:08:32,156 --> 00:08:34,236 Speaker 1: I was just opening old boxes and I found this 140 00:08:34,316 --> 00:08:37,196 Speaker 1: letter and I found her response. And You're totally right. 141 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 1: They can cut through that noise of isolation and pain 142 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 1: that someone's feeling and instantly make you feel like, oh, well, 143 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:47,116 Speaker 1: at least I've matter to someone, you know. 144 00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:50,356 Speaker 2: I have a similar story. When I graduated in eighth grade. 145 00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: I went from a small, very nurturing school to a large, public, 146 00:08:54,916 --> 00:09:00,196 Speaker 2: regional high school and I wasn't bullied, but I was invisible. 147 00:09:01,116 --> 00:09:04,836 Speaker 2: So I felt like I could not show up and 148 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 2: no one would notice. I didn't have my best friend 149 00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 2: had gone to another school. I felt very lonely, very isolated, 150 00:09:12,636 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 2: felt like everybody else already had friends, and I just 151 00:09:15,356 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 2: was there, invisible. And then a teacher noticed. It was 152 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:24,436 Speaker 2: my Spanish teacher freshman year, and she pulled me aside 153 00:09:24,476 --> 00:09:26,916 Speaker 2: one day after school and said, would you be willing 154 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:31,876 Speaker 2: to tutor Justine, this woman in our class who was 155 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 2: acting out because she was not doing well in class. 156 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 2: I was a little surprised that she even asked me 157 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:38,316 Speaker 2: to do this, because I was not like an a student. 158 00:09:38,876 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 2: But for three times a week, Justine and I would 159 00:09:41,156 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 2: sit in the library and we would go over the 160 00:09:43,116 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 2: Spanish homework, and I felt like I mattered. Justine told me, 161 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 2: you're the first person who's made me feel smart, like 162 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:53,396 Speaker 2: I could be capable, like I can do this kind 163 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 2: of work. And I'd wound up transferring out of that 164 00:09:56,716 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 2: large public school to a smaller school, but Justine wrote 165 00:10:00,996 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 2: me a letter, and I saved that letter. I don't 166 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:05,196 Speaker 2: know where it is right now, but it was a 167 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 2: very meaningful moment and probably the first time that I 168 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 2: specifically remember mattering to friends. 169 00:10:10,836 --> 00:10:15,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what a beautiful, virtuous cycle that your teacher inspired. 170 00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: She made you feel that you mattered. Then you felt 171 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 1: like you mattered by tutoring this other student. That student 172 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 1: felt like she mattered because she was on the receiving 173 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:28,076 Speaker 1: end of your tutoring. Is this beautiful, wonderful cycle and. 174 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 2: A ripple, I mean, just these little moments ripple. 175 00:10:32,316 --> 00:10:34,156 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the most heartening aspects of human 176 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 1: psychology is that one of the best ways to fight loneliness, 177 00:10:38,556 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 1: to feel like we matter, is to be a service 178 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 1: to others. Vivic Morphy, the former Surgeon General, he was 179 00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 1: on a slight change of plans and we talked about this. 180 00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: We didn't have to evolve to be this way, but 181 00:10:48,836 --> 00:10:51,796 Speaker 1: it's just it just fills me with so much hope 182 00:10:51,836 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 1: and joy that that is the thing that can ultimately 183 00:10:55,116 --> 00:10:58,796 Speaker 1: make us feel like we're important, is being generous and 184 00:10:58,876 --> 00:11:02,276 Speaker 1: kind and giving to other people, because what a wonderful 185 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: treatment it is. 186 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:07,076 Speaker 2: And I will say, I think what holds people back 187 00:11:07,116 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 2: so much from that is well, lots of things hold 188 00:11:10,156 --> 00:11:13,236 Speaker 2: us back from wanting to contribute, But one of the 189 00:11:13,276 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 2: things I hear over and over again is well, I 190 00:11:14,996 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 2: don't know what my purpose is, and what I've come 191 00:11:17,356 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 2: to realize is I think we have to stop talking 192 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:24,356 Speaker 2: about purpose with a capital P and instead start talking 193 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 2: about living purposefully. So in the people that I interviewed 194 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 2: for the book, there was a constant, a common refrain 195 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:36,356 Speaker 2: among people who had really really built up this sense 196 00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:39,756 Speaker 2: of mattering in themselves, and they were people who knew 197 00:11:39,796 --> 00:11:43,556 Speaker 2: how to add value, and they did this with almost 198 00:11:43,596 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 2: a simple formula. They were able to find genuine needs 199 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:51,396 Speaker 2: in the world, so not needs that they wanted to fill, 200 00:11:51,476 --> 00:11:55,036 Speaker 2: but needs that were actually genuine. What does the other person, 201 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:57,756 Speaker 2: what does this community, what does this workplace, what does 202 00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:01,676 Speaker 2: this department actually need? And then they were able to 203 00:12:01,796 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 2: match either what I call in the book the three t's, 204 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:08,996 Speaker 2: their time, their talent, or their treasure to meet that need. 205 00:12:09,476 --> 00:12:12,756 Speaker 2: And once you have that kind of formula in your mind, 206 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:17,556 Speaker 2: you can find needs everywhere. The fastest way to feel 207 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 2: like you matter is to remind other people why they do, 208 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 2: and that could be again by looking at their needs, listening, 209 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,916 Speaker 2: tuning in and filling that need, even if it's just 210 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:31,916 Speaker 2: someone who needs to be heard like that man in 211 00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 2: the bodega with the clementines. He was purposeful, right, And 212 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 2: we can do that with a smile, with warmth. You 213 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 2: don't even have to chish your words. We're all in 214 00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 2: a deficit, and boy, is that a real genuine need 215 00:12:45,716 --> 00:12:46,596 Speaker 2: that needs to be met. 216 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I just felt yeah, my heart 217 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,956 Speaker 1: skippy beat because you made me think for a moment, Jenny, 218 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 1: about what the world could look like if we all 219 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: embrace this approach and the positive spillover affects all the 220 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: positive ripples. What you've just shared, I think is so 221 00:13:06,276 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: well embodied by my favorite story in your book, which 222 00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: is about a grandmother and her grandson's breakfast relationship. Do 223 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:17,076 Speaker 1: you mind sharing this story? 224 00:13:17,516 --> 00:13:22,636 Speaker 2: Sure. This is Grandma Peggy who is based in Saint Louis, 225 00:13:22,956 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 2: and she has several grandchildren and she's very close to 226 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:30,156 Speaker 2: all of them. And one day her grandson was out 227 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:32,516 Speaker 2: to breakfast with his friends and they were all commenting 228 00:13:32,556 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 2: on the diner food and he said, really, if you 229 00:13:34,236 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 2: want a great breakfast, you need to come to my 230 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 2: grandma Peggy's for breakfast. And so he called her and 231 00:13:39,076 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 2: he asked her could we come? She said, of course, 232 00:13:41,436 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 2: So he and his friend started going to Grandma Peggy's 233 00:13:44,316 --> 00:13:48,436 Speaker 2: and as news spread, more and more kids started showing up. 234 00:13:48,716 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the food, although it was delicious. It 235 00:13:52,396 --> 00:13:57,436 Speaker 2: was that she made the students in her care feel 236 00:13:57,596 --> 00:14:00,636 Speaker 2: seen and valued. She knew who was studying for a 237 00:14:00,716 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 2: science test and who needed to get an a if 238 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 2: they were going to avoid getting a sea. She knew 239 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 2: who had a vaping addiction, who was trying to break it, 240 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:11,596 Speaker 2: who was going through boyfriend struggles and might need a 241 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:16,076 Speaker 2: little extra support. She knew each of these children individually, 242 00:14:16,636 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 2: And I went and I visited her and saw this 243 00:14:19,716 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 2: in action, and it was extraordinary to witness, and perhaps 244 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:27,076 Speaker 2: what was most extraordinary. Do you want me to say 245 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:28,036 Speaker 2: how the story ends? 246 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:31,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, on the show, we keep it real as hard. 247 00:14:31,076 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 2: Okay, So the story ends, unfortunately, with her grandson who 248 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:39,836 Speaker 2: started these breakfast clubs, being killed in a hit and 249 00:14:39,916 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 2: run accident. And the day he died, the breakfast club 250 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 2: came to Grandma Peggy's house to support her and showed 251 00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 2: up every day and every day that summer spent time 252 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 2: with her, was with her, and as the school year 253 00:14:55,716 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 2: was starting, one of the young people said, are we 254 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:01,916 Speaker 2: still continuing with these breakfast clubs? And she said, if 255 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:04,756 Speaker 2: you come, I will feed you. Oh my gosh, and 256 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 2: which she found in the ritual of being with these 257 00:15:09,996 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 2: young people was that it helped her. She said, it 258 00:15:14,636 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 2: was hard on me, but it was also hard on them, 259 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:21,476 Speaker 2: and so she was able to turn her self focused 260 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 2: lens outward and support the other kids in her life. Actually, 261 00:15:26,156 --> 00:15:28,916 Speaker 2: it's kind of funny. She went to a grief counselor 262 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 2: after her grandson died, and the grief counselor said to her, 263 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:36,276 Speaker 2: you know, Peggy, you really need to start prioritizing yourself. 264 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 2: And she said, my grief and well being is not 265 00:15:39,916 --> 00:15:43,516 Speaker 2: going to be found by being so self focused. My 266 00:15:43,716 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 2: well being is going to be found by being other 267 00:15:46,836 --> 00:15:47,476 Speaker 2: focused too. 268 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:51,596 Speaker 1: You mentioned in passing you know sometimes we actually do 269 00:15:51,676 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 1: matter to other people, but we don't know it because 270 00:15:54,716 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 1: we don't see it realized. And you give a powerful 271 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:01,076 Speaker 1: example of that in the book when you talk about firefighters. 272 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 1: And it was such a counterintuitive example for me because 273 00:16:04,756 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 1: I started reading that passage and I thought, Oh, Jenny's 274 00:16:07,156 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 1: not going to talk about a population of people who's 275 00:16:08,916 --> 00:16:11,676 Speaker 1: so clearly know they matter. What can we learn from them? 276 00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, my god, that's not 277 00:16:14,276 --> 00:16:15,076 Speaker 1: actually true. 278 00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:18,196 Speaker 2: Well, I went in search of people who really could 279 00:16:18,596 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 2: must just feel like they matter. And then I started 280 00:16:20,916 --> 00:16:24,076 Speaker 2: looking at the research. I saw the high rates of burnout, 281 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:28,436 Speaker 2: that firefighters are more likely now to die by suicide 282 00:16:28,436 --> 00:16:30,996 Speaker 2: than on the job. And so I spent time in 283 00:16:31,076 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 2: a fire station in North Charleston, South Carolina, and I 284 00:16:35,196 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 2: found out firefighters are often the first to arrive at 285 00:16:37,636 --> 00:16:40,876 Speaker 2: the scene of an accident or a medical emergency, and 286 00:16:40,916 --> 00:16:44,556 Speaker 2: then EMS takes over and the firefighters never know what 287 00:16:44,636 --> 00:16:47,916 Speaker 2: happens next, Did the people survive, did they ever walk again? 288 00:16:48,476 --> 00:16:50,716 Speaker 2: And so I met a fire chief in South Carolina 289 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:53,676 Speaker 2: who created a system to change that. He created a 290 00:16:53,716 --> 00:16:57,076 Speaker 2: system to track the outcomes of rescues so that his 291 00:16:57,196 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 2: firefighters could know when their actions had saved a life 292 00:17:00,476 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 2: or ease someone suffering. And what I realized is that 293 00:17:04,116 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 2: meaning and purpose are not enough. We need to know 294 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 2: our work makes a differ diference. We need to know 295 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 2: that we matter, and so we can take that sense 296 00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 2: of connecting to impact. I mean everyone in the world, 297 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:19,636 Speaker 2: not just firefighters, need to be connected to their impact. 298 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 2: You as a podcast host, hearing from listeners how your 299 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 2: stories have resonated with them, made them feel less alone, 300 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 2: our neighbors, letting them know why they matter to us. 301 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:35,036 Speaker 2: Everyone needs that sense of connection to their impact. I'm 302 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 2: not great at journaling, but every night I do this 303 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 2: simple thirty second practice. I make a note of where 304 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 2: did I add value and where did I feel valued? 305 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 2: And it could be something small. When I was writing 306 00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:50,276 Speaker 2: this book and working ten hours a day writing, I 307 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 2: remember one day I wrote down that I was in 308 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:55,436 Speaker 2: a supermarket parking lot and it was my turn to 309 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:58,836 Speaker 2: get this amazing spot. And I saw somebody else turn 310 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,836 Speaker 2: the corner and I let them have it and they smiled, 311 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:05,276 Speaker 2: and I wrote it down that night I said, gave 312 00:18:05,356 --> 00:18:07,956 Speaker 2: someone else my good spot. That's how I made a 313 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 2: positive impact that day. So it can be you know 314 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:14,516 Speaker 2: what it takes. It's a practice of noticing our impact, 315 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:15,916 Speaker 2: even the small ways. 316 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: After the break, Jenny teaches us some practical tips to 317 00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:27,516 Speaker 1: boost mattering, especially during big moments of change. And as 318 00:18:27,556 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 1: it turns out, there's also such a thing as mattering 319 00:18:30,916 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 1: too much that's coming up on a slight change of plans. 320 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,196 Speaker 1: As you know, this show is all about change and 321 00:18:56,236 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: how we navigate these inflection moments in our lives. And 322 00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 1: you write that our sense of mattering in these moments 323 00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 1: can feel really threatened. What is it about these transitions 324 00:19:07,276 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 1: that leave our sense of mattering in such a precarious state? 325 00:19:11,716 --> 00:19:14,916 Speaker 1: And then what can we do to actually navigate those 326 00:19:14,956 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 1: transitions with more ease, with more what I'll call mattering stability. 327 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:23,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when you really think about your life transitions, 328 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 2: becoming a new parent, relocating, changing jobs, getting fired, even 329 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 2: getting married. Even positive life changes can disrupt our sense 330 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 2: of mattering. Our roles change, the places where we felt 331 00:19:34,676 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 2: valued and where we added value shifted. A big transition 332 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 2: that's coming up for me as an empty nest. And 333 00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 2: as I face this transition, the way I am trying 334 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,836 Speaker 2: to keep my sense of mattering stable is by looking 335 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:52,356 Speaker 2: for role models other people who have gone through similar 336 00:19:52,396 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 2: transitions and have come through it. Finding role models is 337 00:19:56,556 --> 00:20:00,796 Speaker 2: a way of not just feeling less alone, but also 338 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 2: getting a kind of practical blueprint for how to move on, 339 00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:07,036 Speaker 2: how to move forward. So let's say you find some 340 00:20:07,156 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: role models, and these could be real life peple well, 341 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 2: these could be people on a podcast, it could be 342 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:14,876 Speaker 2: books that you've read, it could be articles. The next 343 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:19,276 Speaker 2: step is to harness the power of invitation, either accepting 344 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 2: invitations or issuing your own invitations. I think what holds 345 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:26,236 Speaker 2: us back often in the midst of these big, painful 346 00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 2: life transitions is what researchers call the beautiful mess effect. 347 00:20:31,116 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 2: So it's this idea that we feel like we get 348 00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 2: we need to make our messy lives more in order 349 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:41,916 Speaker 2: before we invite people into our inner lives. But really 350 00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:45,916 Speaker 2: research finds the opposite. They find that there is something 351 00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 2: about an authentically lived life when you are going through 352 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 2: a struggle. Now I'm not saying reveal everything to everyone, sure, 353 00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 2: but to allow for slices of your messy life to 354 00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:59,156 Speaker 2: be seen that is what makes us more authentic and 355 00:20:59,196 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 2: actually what brings people closer to us. One of the 356 00:21:02,476 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 2: things I think about is kind of this litmus test. 357 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:07,796 Speaker 2: If you are feeling like you don't matter, there are 358 00:21:07,796 --> 00:21:10,156 Speaker 2: two questions you can ask your So the first question 359 00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 2: is am I letting myself feel known? Do I allow 360 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:16,756 Speaker 2: people to know me for who I am deep at 361 00:21:16,756 --> 00:21:20,356 Speaker 2: my core? And two? Am I adding value to the 362 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:23,756 Speaker 2: world around me? Again, adding value by smiling, by telling 363 00:21:23,796 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 2: people how much you appreciate them. We don't have to 364 00:21:26,636 --> 00:21:29,636 Speaker 2: be adding value in these huge ways. And in terms 365 00:21:29,676 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 2: of letting people know me for who I am, the 366 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:34,636 Speaker 2: way I visualize it in my head is have you 367 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 2: ever tried to stick something on a very shiny surface. 368 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily stay, it slides off. What really requires 369 00:21:44,396 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 2: stickiness is a bit of grittiness. It is letting ourselves 370 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:51,636 Speaker 2: be known. That's what makes us stick. When we are 371 00:21:51,676 --> 00:21:54,516 Speaker 2: too shiny, when we are presenting us too perfect in 372 00:21:54,556 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 2: the world, that's not what makes people connect with us. 373 00:21:57,436 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 2: It's not what makes us feel like we matter. We 374 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 2: want to matter for who we are deep inside, not 375 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 2: by our appearance. And in order to feel that sense 376 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 2: of feeling valued, we need to open up and let 377 00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:08,916 Speaker 2: people see that in us. 378 00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 1: It is so paradoxical because in these moments of transition, 379 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 1: when we are feeling isolated, untethered, unmoored, my instinct anyway 380 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:21,916 Speaker 1: is to be like, oh my god, I can't socialize 381 00:22:21,916 --> 00:22:24,956 Speaker 1: with people right now, or like you're feeling so overwhelmed 382 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: right by the novelty of everything that you're confronting that 383 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: the last thing you want to do is exert more 384 00:22:30,436 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 1: social energy and say yes to the invitation. But you 385 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:36,716 Speaker 1: say that you should just say yes even when we 386 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:40,316 Speaker 1: don't feel like it, because it will have really powerful 387 00:22:40,356 --> 00:22:41,836 Speaker 1: effects on our life. And I kind of just need 388 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: you to tell me, Maya, you got to go to 389 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:46,836 Speaker 1: that party even when you don't want to, because otherwise 390 00:22:46,876 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 1: I will just choose, you know, the safe option. And 391 00:22:49,796 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 1: it's so paradoxical because in these moments when we should 392 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: be opening ourselves up most right, to our new community, 393 00:22:56,716 --> 00:23:00,036 Speaker 1: or to our new coworkers, or to the community we're 394 00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 1: now a part of because of some big change in 395 00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 1: life that we never opted into. Right, maybe we're now 396 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:08,316 Speaker 1: part of a caregiver's network or a bereavement community. That's 397 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:10,796 Speaker 1: often when we can act, you know, close ourselves off 398 00:23:10,796 --> 00:23:11,276 Speaker 1: to others. 399 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 2: Well, it's also because we live in this hyper individualistic, 400 00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:18,156 Speaker 2: self reliant culture that makes us believe that we have 401 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 2: to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and that 402 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 2: we can't lean on others. But when you look at 403 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 2: the decades worth of resilience research, there is one finding 404 00:23:26,796 --> 00:23:30,836 Speaker 2: that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests 405 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 2: on our relationships. It is not taking a bubble bath, 406 00:23:35,076 --> 00:23:37,196 Speaker 2: it is not lighting a candle, it's not with the 407 00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 2: multi billion dollar wellness industry tries to sell us. Our 408 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 2: resilience rests on our relationships. So I'm not saying you 409 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 2: have to say yes to every invitation. I think you 410 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:51,196 Speaker 2: can start with a modest goal of two invitations a week, 411 00:23:51,516 --> 00:23:54,516 Speaker 2: and if you're going to the party, you say to yourself, 412 00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 2: I'm going for one hour and then I will decide 413 00:23:57,116 --> 00:23:59,196 Speaker 2: how I feel after the hour, So you can give 414 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:03,916 Speaker 2: yourself micro steps towards mattering again. But it is you 415 00:24:03,996 --> 00:24:06,356 Speaker 2: are not going to rebuild your sense of mattering by 416 00:24:06,396 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 2: being alone. We are social animal and we really do 417 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,556 Speaker 2: crave the proof that what we do in who we 418 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:15,076 Speaker 2: are matters. 419 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:19,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned, Jenny that you're on the cusp of 420 00:24:19,116 --> 00:24:22,276 Speaker 1: becoming an empty nester. I imagine many people who are 421 00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: listening are navigating a transition in which they are having 422 00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 1: to let go of some part of their identity. What's 423 00:24:29,276 --> 00:24:32,236 Speaker 1: your advice for them? How can they bring meaning back 424 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: into their lives during these kinds of moments. 425 00:24:35,196 --> 00:24:38,076 Speaker 2: I learned this from a woman I interviewed named Julie, 426 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 2: who felt this deep sense of purpose being a full 427 00:24:42,276 --> 00:24:44,556 Speaker 2: time caregiver to her mother, and once her mother died, 428 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:49,876 Speaker 2: she described feeling unmoored and adrift, but instead of focusing 429 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 2: in word, she forced herself to look outward for a 430 00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 2: new way to matter, and she did this extraordinary thing. 431 00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 2: She was in the midst of her mother's home looking 432 00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:01,076 Speaker 2: at all of the things that she had to get 433 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 2: rid of, and she was like, but there are people 434 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 2: in this community who are rebuilding after fires, or experiencing homelessness, 435 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,956 Speaker 2: or new immigrants to the area. And so she and 436 00:25:11,036 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 2: a friend would collect gently used goods and deliver them 437 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 2: to people who could use them. So she found a 438 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 2: way of mattering by looking at the need grieving families 439 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: like hers, who had perfectly good housewares that they didn't 440 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:27,796 Speaker 2: want to throw away because they were meaningful to their 441 00:25:27,796 --> 00:25:31,156 Speaker 2: loved ones who'd passed away, and she matched it with 442 00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:33,916 Speaker 2: people who could use them. I'm not saying you need 443 00:25:33,956 --> 00:25:36,636 Speaker 2: to come up with something that big, but it could 444 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 2: be finding new ways to matter again. I mean, one 445 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:42,156 Speaker 2: of the ways I think about it is to have 446 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:44,676 Speaker 2: a sense of mattering in different domains of our lives. 447 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,716 Speaker 2: So if my sense of mattering is fully contingent on 448 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,556 Speaker 2: being a full time caregiver to my kids, I am 449 00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:56,396 Speaker 2: going to be crushed when they leave. But instead I 450 00:25:56,436 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 2: am building out other domains. I am being mindful of 451 00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 2: my friendships, I am being mindful of my relationship with 452 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:06,596 Speaker 2: my husband, I am being mindful of my work. I 453 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 2: am creating a kind of social portfolio that if one 454 00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:14,716 Speaker 2: of these domains were to go away, I would still 455 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:18,556 Speaker 2: have stability because I matter in different areas of my life. 456 00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 2: And also, I will say that I am very careful 457 00:26:22,636 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 2: to focus on this idea of unconditional worth, which in 458 00:26:27,236 --> 00:26:31,116 Speaker 2: our society is really countercultural, this idea that matter no 459 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:35,316 Speaker 2: matter what it was. The theologian Henry now And talks 460 00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:38,076 Speaker 2: about the three great lies. I am what I have, 461 00:26:38,356 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 2: I am what I do, I am what people say 462 00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:43,476 Speaker 2: and think about me. And I think that is you know, 463 00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 2: one of the other reasons why people feel like they 464 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:49,116 Speaker 2: don't matter, Because we used to live in ecosystems that 465 00:26:49,236 --> 00:26:52,956 Speaker 2: provided the sense of worth that were separate from what 466 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:56,756 Speaker 2: we did, from our accomplishments that no longer exist. 467 00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:03,036 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, I really appreciated that you paid homage to 468 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:09,116 Speaker 1: people like caregivers who quote matter too much but feel 469 00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:10,236 Speaker 1: value too little. 470 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 2: Yes, so I titled the chapter Mattering too Much, which 471 00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:18,716 Speaker 2: is this idea that you certainly feel like you matter. 472 00:27:18,796 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 2: You have lots of people depending on you, relying on 473 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 2: you with real needs, but your needs are never prioritized 474 00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:27,516 Speaker 2: your needs sometimes don't even make it on the list, 475 00:27:28,076 --> 00:27:30,396 Speaker 2: And so I dug into the research to find out 476 00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:34,396 Speaker 2: what gives caregivers, what gives first responders, what gives people 477 00:27:34,756 --> 00:27:38,796 Speaker 2: who have these really in physicians, these intense jobs where 478 00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:41,796 Speaker 2: other people's needs seem to always come first. And what 479 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:47,716 Speaker 2: I found was that true mattering is not about giving 480 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 2: of ourselves to the breaking point. True mattering requires balance, 481 00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 2: balance between our own needs and the needs of others, 482 00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:58,436 Speaker 2: and so it is up to us to build up 483 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:01,596 Speaker 2: that mattering to ourselves. That does not mean that our 484 00:28:01,636 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 2: needs always have to come first, but it means at 485 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 2: least in my mind. What has helped me is that 486 00:28:06,956 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 2: filling at least one need a day that is mine, 487 00:28:11,476 --> 00:28:13,796 Speaker 2: not when the to do list is done, not when 488 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 2: everybody else's needs have been met, but actually radically prioritizing 489 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 2: a need for myself is how I remind myself that 490 00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 2: I matter to and that is what gives me the 491 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 2: resilience to show up as my best self for the 492 00:28:27,436 --> 00:28:28,196 Speaker 2: people around me. 493 00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:31,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, what you've just talked about is captured by this 494 00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:35,316 Speaker 1: notion in your book of setting personal policies for yourself. 495 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,956 Speaker 1: Can you share a couple of your personal policies when 496 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:42,636 Speaker 1: it comes to feeling like you matter and feeling valued 497 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:44,156 Speaker 1: that you matter to yourself too. 498 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 2: So it's interesting. So I have a few personal policies 499 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 2: one personal policy which may you know, again, personal policies 500 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:56,636 Speaker 2: are very very personal. Yeah, so what makes me feel 501 00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 2: like I mattered myself certainly would not make my husband 502 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: feel like he matters to himself. I matter to myself 503 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:06,436 Speaker 2: by waking up very early, sometimes four am, to write, 504 00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:09,796 Speaker 2: to read, to do things that are in important to me, 505 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 2: so that I start my day filling my need. And 506 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 2: when I do that, and I learned to do that 507 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 2: during COVID, I was trying to write my first book 508 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 2: while having three young kids, trying to figure out Zoom school, 509 00:29:24,156 --> 00:29:27,156 Speaker 2: and a husband who was always loud on conference calls 510 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 2: in a chiny house. And so I realized that at 511 00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 2: four am, I would have silence for three full hours 512 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 2: that was mattering to myself. That is what I gave myself. 513 00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: I start my day at nine am because I have 514 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 1: high sleep needs, and so the way I show myself 515 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: I care is sleeping as long as I can. 516 00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:48,996 Speaker 2: Right see how personal it is. And one of my 517 00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:52,716 Speaker 2: other personal policies, which I will say in our modern world, 518 00:29:53,196 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 2: so many friendships feel hollowed out because we don't really 519 00:29:57,316 --> 00:29:59,596 Speaker 2: give It's not that people don't have friends, it's that 520 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 2: they don't have the time and bandwidth to invest in 521 00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 2: those relationships. And so one personal policy that I have 522 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:09,356 Speaker 2: set that had been transformative for my friendships is is 523 00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:12,996 Speaker 2: I don't cancel plans unless I'm sick. Oh. I love 524 00:30:13,036 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 2: that my friends know this about me. It makes me 525 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:20,956 Speaker 2: trustworthy to my friends. It has built this deep they 526 00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:24,916 Speaker 2: rely on me, and I madter in that way, and 527 00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:27,636 Speaker 2: so unless I am sick, I show up. 528 00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:29,236 Speaker 1: I love that so much. 529 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 2: It's also means that I'm mindful of what I say 530 00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:34,076 Speaker 2: yes to and planning my schedule in a way that 531 00:30:34,156 --> 00:30:36,516 Speaker 2: makes me feel like I matter but also honors the 532 00:30:36,556 --> 00:30:37,516 Speaker 2: people in my life. 533 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:41,156 Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to go through a couple more techniques 534 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:44,756 Speaker 1: strategies you give us in the book to help us 535 00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: encourage a feeling in others that they matter and in 536 00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 1: ourselves that we matter. So one of my favorite ones 537 00:30:51,956 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 1: was an exercise that you call if it Weren't for You. 538 00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:57,956 Speaker 2: Yes, if it Weren't for You is an idea that 539 00:30:57,996 --> 00:31:01,396 Speaker 2: I got from a woman that I interviewed and This 540 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 2: woman gave notes on people's birthdays people in her life, saying, 541 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 2: if it weren't for you. To a colleague, our department 542 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:13,196 Speaker 2: wouldn't feel as close. You are the reason we are 543 00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:17,196 Speaker 2: a community. To a cousin, she wrote, if it weren't 544 00:31:17,316 --> 00:31:20,436 Speaker 2: for you, our family gatherings wouldn't be as fun. Your 545 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:23,836 Speaker 2: humor and joy make us feel closer. Thank you for 546 00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:27,476 Speaker 2: building that connection with us. So it is about appreciating 547 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 2: who people are, not necessarily what they do. That is 548 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 2: such an easy way of unlocking mattering in the world 549 00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:39,076 Speaker 2: around us. A simple text if it weren't for you 550 00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:42,196 Speaker 2: dot dot dot, and just telling the people around us 551 00:31:42,236 --> 00:31:42,956 Speaker 2: why they matter. 552 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:46,516 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I also could see someone who's struggling with 553 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:48,596 Speaker 1: their self esteem or self worth or their feeling that 554 00:31:48,636 --> 00:31:52,716 Speaker 1: they don't matter, doing this exercise for themselves, right, reflecting 555 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:56,796 Speaker 1: on if it weren't for me, these things would be 556 00:31:56,836 --> 00:31:58,396 Speaker 1: different if it weren't for me. You know my sister, 557 00:31:58,436 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 1: for example, she's so good at remembering all the birthdays 558 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:05,476 Speaker 1: in our family and organizing parties and events and getting 559 00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:08,356 Speaker 1: really personalized gifts for people, And I would want on 560 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,076 Speaker 1: her list to be if it weren't for me at 561 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:13,196 Speaker 1: least two of my siblings would forget some of our 562 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 1: birthdays every year. In fact, she reminded me of Jimmy's 563 00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:19,956 Speaker 1: and my wedding anniversary. This year, I've forgotten about it, 564 00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:24,076 Speaker 1: And so I love the idea of doing this exercise ourselves. 565 00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:26,876 Speaker 1: It can feel self indulgent, but we know that self 566 00:32:26,916 --> 00:32:30,476 Speaker 1: compassion leads to growth that's actually beneficial for other people 567 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:31,396 Speaker 1: and ourselves. 568 00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:34,236 Speaker 2: Yes, I would say that that is a way of 569 00:32:34,276 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 2: connecting to our impact if it weren't for me dot 570 00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:39,596 Speaker 2: dot dot. It's almost I think of it almost as 571 00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,916 Speaker 2: like the opposite of a gratitude journal. So instead of 572 00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:45,156 Speaker 2: being grateful for the other things in your life, to 573 00:32:45,236 --> 00:32:47,516 Speaker 2: turn the lens inward and be grateful for the things 574 00:32:47,556 --> 00:32:50,356 Speaker 2: that you've done and the way that you've positively impacted people. 575 00:32:50,396 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 2: And we don't take the time to do that. 576 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:55,076 Speaker 1: Another concept you talk about in the book is called 577 00:32:55,116 --> 00:32:59,756 Speaker 1: third spaces, and it's a social environment that's not home 578 00:32:59,876 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: and it's not work. So you know the gin, the library, 579 00:33:02,996 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: public park, and you talk about the idea of transforming 580 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:10,396 Speaker 1: third spaces to mattering spaces. 581 00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:12,676 Speaker 2: So my dad was so good at this. He was 582 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 2: about to retire after a long career at Exon. I 583 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:18,276 Speaker 2: think he works there for fifty years or so. And 584 00:33:18,316 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 2: there was one casual restaurant that he would go in 585 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:23,436 Speaker 2: once a week to have a burrito. That was his 586 00:33:23,636 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 2: little treat of the week, and he got to know 587 00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:29,276 Speaker 2: the staff. He knew when he knew who was going 588 00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 2: back to school, he knew who had children and whether 589 00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:36,356 Speaker 2: or not they were celebrating milestones. And he created that 590 00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:40,116 Speaker 2: space where he felt known and appreciated, and he made 591 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:43,436 Speaker 2: the people around him in that space field known and appreciated. 592 00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 2: And in fact, when he stopped going for a few 593 00:33:46,356 --> 00:33:48,596 Speaker 2: weeks to care for his mother in law, my grandmother, 594 00:33:48,676 --> 00:33:51,476 Speaker 2: when she was dying, he came back and was so 595 00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:55,876 Speaker 2: missed that when the servers realized that he had lost 596 00:33:55,916 --> 00:33:58,036 Speaker 2: his mother in law who he was close with, they 597 00:33:58,076 --> 00:34:00,796 Speaker 2: went out and got him a card that everyone in 598 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:04,196 Speaker 2: the restaurant had personalized. That was their way of saying 599 00:34:04,236 --> 00:34:07,196 Speaker 2: to him, you make us feel like we matter. You 600 00:34:07,316 --> 00:34:10,356 Speaker 2: matter to us, You have been missed, You matter here, 601 00:34:10,796 --> 00:34:13,476 Speaker 2: and we can make those spaces. It could be the 602 00:34:13,596 --> 00:34:16,516 Speaker 2: dog run where you go every day. It could be 603 00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:19,836 Speaker 2: starting a conversation with someone you see literally every morning. 604 00:34:20,196 --> 00:34:24,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the most provocative claims you make in 605 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:27,516 Speaker 1: the book that I felt so intrigued by and I 606 00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:29,556 Speaker 1: personally think can make the world a better place is 607 00:34:29,556 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 1: the idea that your goal isn't to be happy, it's 608 00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:36,636 Speaker 1: to matter. Tell me about that. 609 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:40,636 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I came to this realization when I was 610 00:34:41,156 --> 00:34:45,196 Speaker 2: writing my first book about achievement culture. And I used 611 00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:47,316 Speaker 2: to be one of those parents who would say, Oh, 612 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 2: I just want my kids to be happy. I just 613 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:51,876 Speaker 2: want them to live a happy life. Yeah, of course 614 00:34:51,876 --> 00:34:53,716 Speaker 2: I want my kids to be happy, but I actually 615 00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:56,356 Speaker 2: want something more for them now. I want them to 616 00:34:56,396 --> 00:34:59,036 Speaker 2: know how to feel valued and how to add value 617 00:34:59,076 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 2: to the world. That, to me is the protective shield 618 00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:06,916 Speaker 2: that will help therom through any life transition. So in 619 00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:11,476 Speaker 2: my mind, as an adult, I am not motivated by happiness. Happiness, 620 00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:15,236 Speaker 2: in my mind is a byproduct of living a life 621 00:35:15,396 --> 00:35:19,436 Speaker 2: that matters, of living a life where I feel valued 622 00:35:19,796 --> 00:35:22,316 Speaker 2: and where I add value to the people around me, 623 00:35:22,796 --> 00:35:25,636 Speaker 2: to the world, even in small ways. I think so 624 00:35:25,716 --> 00:35:28,956 Speaker 2: many people are searching for happiness in the wrong places. 625 00:35:29,516 --> 00:35:32,756 Speaker 2: If you are feeling like you are not happy, go 626 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:37,916 Speaker 2: out and matter. Matter to your neighbor, matter to your colleagues, 627 00:35:38,436 --> 00:35:43,756 Speaker 2: Matter to your lonely grandmother, matter, to the people around you. 628 00:35:44,316 --> 00:35:46,716 Speaker 2: That is where true happiness lies. 629 00:35:47,276 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 1: I mean to push that even further, even if it 630 00:35:50,076 --> 00:35:53,436 Speaker 1: wasn't an instrumental means to happiness. There's a good argument 631 00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:57,036 Speaker 1: that we get a ticket to planet Earth. Right, we 632 00:35:57,076 --> 00:36:01,956 Speaker 1: have this membership, and why should it be about achieving 633 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:06,116 Speaker 1: individual nirvana? Right? I mean, we have a responsibility to 634 00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:06,716 Speaker 1: other people. 635 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 2: And it's how we've been able to evolve as a speak, 636 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:13,676 Speaker 2: because we have always mattered to each other. That is 637 00:36:13,716 --> 00:36:16,276 Speaker 2: how you know if we didn't, if we were pursuing 638 00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:20,276 Speaker 2: happiness back to our as our earliest ancestors, we wouldn't 639 00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:23,436 Speaker 2: be here talking now. It is because we mattered to 640 00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:26,676 Speaker 2: the band because we felt valued and we added value, 641 00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:30,316 Speaker 2: that we were protected, that we felt connected. We have 642 00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:33,076 Speaker 2: evolved to matter, to want to matter. 643 00:36:34,276 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 1: Jenny, what's if you can leave listeners with something surprising 644 00:36:38,596 --> 00:36:41,876 Speaker 1: that you discovered in this whole journey? What would you share? 645 00:36:42,996 --> 00:36:45,836 Speaker 2: I would say it was advice I got from a 646 00:36:45,836 --> 00:36:49,356 Speaker 2: woman named Julie that I interviewed that if you are 647 00:36:49,516 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 2: going through a painful life transition, if you were going 648 00:36:52,436 --> 00:36:56,996 Speaker 2: through something hard, we have agency in our mattering. It 649 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 2: is not reliant on others. We can find ways on 650 00:37:00,996 --> 00:37:05,236 Speaker 2: this earth to matter, and that we have a responsibility 651 00:37:05,276 --> 00:37:07,676 Speaker 2: to matter, to be useful to the world around us. 652 00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:11,716 Speaker 2: I'll say. The other thing is that in researching this book, 653 00:37:11,756 --> 00:37:14,836 Speaker 2: I have issued myself a kind of challenge that I 654 00:37:14,876 --> 00:37:17,876 Speaker 2: don't always meet. But it's to picture everyone I meet, 655 00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:21,156 Speaker 2: whether they are a stranger or a friend or someone 656 00:37:21,196 --> 00:37:24,156 Speaker 2: in my family, with a sign around their neck saying 657 00:37:24,316 --> 00:37:28,236 Speaker 2: tell me do I matter? And that we have a 658 00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:33,316 Speaker 2: responsibility to answer that with a smile, with eye contact, 659 00:37:33,396 --> 00:37:37,956 Speaker 2: with kindness. People are starved of mattering, and we can 660 00:37:38,076 --> 00:37:40,956 Speaker 2: fill that. We all can fill that, and the world 661 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:42,916 Speaker 2: would look like such a different place. 662 00:38:05,716 --> 00:38:08,756 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you find yourself 663 00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:11,916 Speaker 1: thinking about this conversation in the coming days, I offer 664 00:38:12,036 --> 00:38:16,316 Speaker 1: you this challenge. Find your own Clementine moment, show someone 665 00:38:16,596 --> 00:38:19,756 Speaker 1: anyone that they matter to you, and if we in 666 00:38:19,796 --> 00:38:22,356 Speaker 1: the Slight Change Family matter to you. See what I 667 00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:25,196 Speaker 1: did there. Make sure you follow a Slight Change of 668 00:38:25,196 --> 00:38:29,076 Speaker 1: Plans wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, we'll be back 669 00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:41,916 Speaker 1: next week with another episode. I'll see you then. A 670 00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:45,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced 671 00:38:45,556 --> 00:38:49,116 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our 672 00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:54,556 Speaker 1: showrunner Alexandra Garratin, our editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer 673 00:38:54,756 --> 00:38:59,196 Speaker 1: Megan Lubin, our associate producer Sonia Gerwitt, and our sound 674 00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:03,996 Speaker 1: engineer Erica Huang. Luis Scara wrote our delightful theme song 675 00:39:04,156 --> 00:39:07,836 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 676 00:39:07,836 --> 00:39:11,156 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 677 00:39:11,196 --> 00:39:15,156 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 678 00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:16,596 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee.