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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'll never told you a protection of Iheartradios how stuff works.

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Speaker 1: This episode was inspired by the upcoming movie Birds of

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Speaker 1: Prey and the fantabulous Emancipation of one Harley Quinn, which is,

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Speaker 1: I believe a pun not a pun. It's a reference

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Speaker 1: to Birdman and that other long title of the fentesy

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Speaker 1: Birds of Prey Birdman sense, right, And we haven't seen

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Speaker 1: the movie. It could be terrible for all we know.

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Speaker 1: It's not a sponsored episode, but we thought it'd be

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Speaker 1: cool to look into the comics of some of these characters. Um.

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Speaker 1: And plus, it's been in my mind ever since we

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Speaker 1: did First Wives Club and we were singing you Don't

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Speaker 1: Own Me all the time. As I said in that episode,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was from Suicide Squad. Foolishly very It

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Speaker 1: also does seem to have a lot of elements that

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Speaker 1: we discussed in our Whole Women in Revenge, And also

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Speaker 1: the previews have come out, the second long one, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty intense. It's fantastic. Yeah, Samantha and I saw

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Speaker 1: it this weekend, saw a trailer for it this weekend,

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Speaker 1: and there were a lot of lines, so we were like, yep, yes,

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Speaker 1: do you have any experience with d C. So I

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Speaker 1: watched a few way back in the day a K.

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Speaker 1: Michael Keaton and all the Batman series on that level, um,

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Speaker 1: and a couple of episodes of the old TV show.

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Speaker 1: I did remember watching that with my great grandmother's house

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Speaker 1: or some weird thing. And I do enjoy the c

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Speaker 1: W series Flash and watch a bit of The Arrow.

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Speaker 1: I think it's fun and catching and easy going, like

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Speaker 1: there's a little bit of sadness in it, and that's fine,

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Speaker 1: but it's like just enough that I can keep going

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Speaker 1: and not really worry about it. It's just kind of

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Speaker 1: cute show. Okay, I've I've been meeting to check it out.

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Speaker 1: I have friends who are really big fans of both

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Speaker 1: of those shows, um, but I have never seen them.

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Speaker 1: I have seen a handful of the new movies, and

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I did watch the Batman

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Speaker 1: cartoon and Young Batman well on the w V it

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Speaker 1: was then the way, Yeah, I've gotten them to confuse really,

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, it was w V upan right

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Speaker 1: something else, very young channel. It was my favorite. And

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Speaker 1: speaking up small Ville, I did watch Smallville Harley Quinn. Um,

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Speaker 1: the character, I mean, as long as I can remember,

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Speaker 1: always put me on edge. She was just so unpredictable.

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Speaker 1: And um, she's actually not really a member of the

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Speaker 1: Birds of Prey, which halfway explains I guess that long title.

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Speaker 1: The Birds of Prey and Harley Quinn she is usually

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Speaker 1: their antagonist in fact, And as I've said, I have

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Speaker 1: seen the Christopher Nolan Batman movies and I used to

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Speaker 1: cosplay Catwan from those movies with two of my friends

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Speaker 1: going as Poison Ivy and like, yeah, now, I haven't

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Speaker 1: seen all of Suicide Squad. I've seen bits and pieces

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Speaker 1: of it, I hear. My general impression is it wasn't

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Speaker 1: very good, but that the best part of it was

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Speaker 1: Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn, and the amount of people dressed

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Speaker 1: as her comic con that years certainly suggested that was true.

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Speaker 1: Her costume was it anyway, which we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about that more in a minute. She is a fascinating,

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Speaker 1: if not extremely problematic at times character. Um. Other than

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Speaker 1: Margot Robbie, It's stars Mary Elizabeth wind said, It's Huntress.

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Speaker 1: Rosie Perez is Detective Renee Montoya Journey Small at Bell

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Speaker 1: as Black Canary and j At Bosco as Cassandra Kine

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Speaker 1: slash maybe Batgirl. I don't know, I haven't seen it again.

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Speaker 1: Juan McGregor plays the main antagonist, Black Mask, right. And

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Speaker 1: for this new movie, Margot Robbie was pretty involved. She

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Speaker 1: was pitching an R rated girl gang film and the

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Speaker 1: first R rated movie in the d c X in

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Speaker 1: the universe, so that's a big note. The script was

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Speaker 1: written by Christina Hotts and directed by Cathy Yann, the

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Speaker 1: first Asian woman to direct a superhero movie. Who Who?

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Speaker 1: And it's the first girl game superhero movie. Yes. War

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Speaker 1: McGregor called it a feminist film that takes a quote

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Speaker 1: real look at misogyny. Misogynists and movies are often extreme.

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Speaker 1: They rape, they beat women, and is legitimate to represent

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Speaker 1: people like that because they exist and they are obviously

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Speaker 1: the worst. But in Birds of Prey dialogue there is

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Speaker 1: always a hint of everyday misogyny, of those things you

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Speaker 1: say as a man you do not even realize man's plaining,

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Speaker 1: and it's in the script in a very subtle way.

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Speaker 1: I found that brilliant. So in response to that, the

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Speaker 1: Internet is already kind of freaking out breaking out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Samantha and I ran into preemptive Oh I was hilarious. Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: One guy just automatically put it out there that there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be no interest in this movie because we only care,

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Speaker 1: and I say we, as in the audience, only care

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Speaker 1: about superhero movies and comics due to the sexiness of

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Speaker 1: the women. Essentially in the women were not sexy, which

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Speaker 1: in what world Margot, Robbie, and Journey small att like,

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Speaker 1: how are they not sexy? Like any of these women

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Speaker 1: beyond it was sexy. Maybe they're not naked enough. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Even their costumes, though seemingly are pretty skin tight.

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Speaker 1: So again, huh huh, Yeah, it's right. A lot of people, angry,

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Speaker 1: angry men, Internet men are freaking out about already saying,

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Speaker 1: we don't want social commentary in our movies, we don't

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Speaker 1: want feminism in our superhero movies. We only care when

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Speaker 1: the joker has social commentary about how women are awful

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Speaker 1: and that white men are being ignored. All of a sudden, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's a social commentary they can give hide right, right,

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Speaker 1: and when oscars for I know, I know, so I

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Speaker 1: guess in some ways this is doubly I'm sorry nominated

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Speaker 1: for Yes, we don't know as of recording this. Um okay,

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Speaker 1: so people are freaking out about know it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: hilarious slash sad if it really isn't feminist at all,

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Speaker 1: if there isn't like once again, once again. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of how I felt about Mad Max the remake, because yes,

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Speaker 1: Charlie Theron was a very strong character at all, but

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Speaker 1: I'm like, in the end, she still had to have

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Speaker 1: the main dude, Mad Max, help her. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like it's not like an all ending. We just

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Speaker 1: got rid of all the men altogether, so it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the wait, confused, Why are you so upset?

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Speaker 1: That's generally my question, but maybe one day we'll have you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: why are you so mad about this? Calm down, guys,

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be okay, So let's let's get in. Due

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Speaker 1: to the Birds of Prey and kind of what they're

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Speaker 1: all about, they are a team of mostly female um

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Speaker 1: mostly female carme fighters and superheroes. An occasional man shows

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Speaker 1: up and joins their ranks. The team isn't always the same.

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Speaker 1: People come and go. There's Black Canary back Girl or

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Speaker 1: a goal Huntress. Katana was an ivy Lady, black Hawk,

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Speaker 1: and Catwoman to name a few, there's a lot. As

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Speaker 1: the name suggests, the team is composed of women who

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Speaker 1: are excellent hunters and good at trapping and catching prey.

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Speaker 1: While they did face off against plenty of supervillains, they

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Speaker 1: typically tackled more real world crime like terrorism, human trafficking,

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Speaker 1: and human rights abuses. I was reading some of the

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Speaker 1: use for this they get Dark, Get Dark. It is

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Speaker 1: one of the few mainstream comic books as a focus

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Speaker 1: on female friendships. Right as far as comics go, Birds

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Speaker 1: of Prey is fairly recent, they beeting in nineteen nineties

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Speaker 1: six Birds of Prey Black Canaries Slash Oracle, so they

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Speaker 1: didn't get their own book till nineteen. The storyline was

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Speaker 1: the brainchild of Jordan B. Gorfinkel and originally featured a

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Speaker 1: partnership between Dinah Lance Slash Black Canary and Barbara Gordon

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Speaker 1: Slash Oracle Slash formerly bat Girl, and they're the two mainstays.

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Speaker 1: Gordon had been shot by the Joker and was paralyzed

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Speaker 1: from the waist down, so she pivoted it to using

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Speaker 1: type knowlogy to fight crime with the help of Black Canary,

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Speaker 1: and while supportive of each other, the pair frequently clashed

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Speaker 1: idealistic Black Canary and realistic Oracle. However, the friendship were

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Speaker 1: made at the heart of the series throughout, no matter

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Speaker 1: who else joined their ranks. It was originally written by

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Speaker 1: Chuck Dixon, but beginning at issue number fifty six, Gayle

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Speaker 1: Simone took over and she continued to control it until

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Speaker 1: issue one oh eight, which was published in two thousand nine.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven, the New fifty two rebooted the series.

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Speaker 1: This was kind of like a big reboot of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of their properties. Um. It rebooted the series and

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Speaker 1: from seen Shawna and Julie Benson took over the run

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Speaker 1: of Bat Girl and the Birds of Prey, featuring primarily

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Speaker 1: back Girl Slash, Barbara Gordon, Black Canary, and Huntress. They

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Speaker 1: didn't start calling themselves Birds of Prey until six years

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Speaker 1: after the story's conception, when Lady black Hawk said an

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Speaker 1: issue number eighty six, we need a name. The Asian

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Speaker 1: thing it's got no zing. So what about being the

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Speaker 1: Birds of Prey, Canary and black Hawk. That's easy. In

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Speaker 1: the name Hunters fits. Yeah, there you go. When interviewed

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Speaker 1: about bat Girl and the Birds of Prey, SHAWNA. Benson said,

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Speaker 1: we like women who are sexy without being sexualized, because

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Speaker 1: that's most women, and Julie Benson said, yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think the other thing we really didn't want to do

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Speaker 1: was have a bunch of catty girl fights. That was

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Speaker 1: the one note in her editors agree, the one thing

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Speaker 1: we don't want to do is have a bunch of

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Speaker 1: bitchy fights. They're going to have disagreements, They're going to

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Speaker 1: respect each other, though they just might go about things

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Speaker 1: in a different way. And there was a two thousand

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Speaker 1: two I think it was the w B at that time,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not TV show pulling from the comics called

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Speaker 1: Birds of Prey. I watched it, but it was canceled

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Speaker 1: after thirteen episodes. The thing I remember most clearly about

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Speaker 1: it is one episode had that tattoo song in it

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Speaker 1: that everyone was really into at the time. It followed

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Speaker 1: at Black Canary, and she was the daughter of the

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Speaker 1: original Black Canary. In this Huntress and Oracle, Harley Quinn

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Speaker 1: was being set up to be the antagonist of the series,

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Speaker 1: but it was canceled before anything was ever made of

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Speaker 1: that storyline, and Lori Laughlin was in it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: forgot about that. Old days were. But speaking of Harley Quinn,

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Speaker 1: we did want to talk about her character a bit more.

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Speaker 1: But first we're gonna pause for a quick break for

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Speaker 1: words from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsor,

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Speaker 1: Harlene quinzl Ak. Harley Quinn voiced by Arlene Sorkin in Batman,

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Speaker 1: the animated series, and that was the character's first appearance

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Speaker 1: in so she's fairly new. Within two years, though, the

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Speaker 1: fan response was such that the creators were asked to

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Speaker 1: make a single issue comic centering on her. She was

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Speaker 1: such a popular character she was added to the comics,

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Speaker 1: She appeared in video games, she appeared in other TV shows,

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Speaker 1: and now in the movies. To this day, she is

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Speaker 1: a best selling character, so much so that DC Entertainment

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Speaker 1: called February Harley Quinn Month. She was introduced primarily as

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Speaker 1: a sidekick to the Joker and in full clown attire.

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Speaker 1: She's unpredictable and sexual, especially in her post gester outfit,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of a courset thing. Um. She she

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Speaker 1: loves performance in the line between the real Harley and

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Speaker 1: the performance is a blurry one. In some versions, she's Jewish,

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Speaker 1: and in some versions she's queer. When it comes to

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Speaker 1: the creation of Harlequinn, Paul Danny typically gets the credit,

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Speaker 1: but many point to the woman who first voiced her,

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Speaker 1: Arlene Sorkin. She previously starred on Days of Our Lives,

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Speaker 1: where she served as the comic relief. I guess that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: In soap opera, she always was pitching ideas, and one

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Speaker 1: day she pushed a dream like, fairytale esque sequence the

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Speaker 1: producers spraying for. She played a juster in Rollerblades. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like that. Danny and her were friends, and she

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Speaker 1: gave him a VHS of her favorite performance, her in

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Speaker 1: the Jester outfit, telling jokes to royalty while on roller skates.

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Speaker 1: It remained unwatched for years until one day under the weather, Danny,

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Speaker 1: who was struggling with coming up a female villain for Batman,

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Speaker 1: watch the tape and there you go, Really, Quinn, Yeah

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Speaker 1: you should. You can still find clips of it online

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Speaker 1: and you can see it. You're like, Okay, I can

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Speaker 1: already imagine it, and I feel like my imagination is better.

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Speaker 1: I could see. I don't know that it is. Oh no, well,

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Speaker 1: it's just so interesting. I don't watch so far baras

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Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of familiarity with Rose, but

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Speaker 1: it is funny like that that would be here's a

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Speaker 1: jester on roller blades telling jokes to Royalty. What days

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Speaker 1: of our lives? Maybe a future episode. In this current

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Speaker 1: version of Harley Quinn, she started as a psychiatrist at

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Speaker 1: Arkham Asylum, which is where all the really bad guys

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Speaker 1: go in Gotham City. She graduated at the top of

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Speaker 1: her class, and in some interpretations, she she resented the

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Speaker 1: uptight persona that that she created or or that she shaped,

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Speaker 1: that she felt like she had to behave in a

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Speaker 1: certain way, that there are all these expectations placed on her,

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Speaker 1: and that all changed when she met the Joker, and

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Speaker 1: that's been one of the defining traits of her character.

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Speaker 1: She has long when defined by the Joker and her

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Speaker 1: often abusive, definitely toxic relationship with him. Several episodes showcase

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Speaker 1: the cycle of abuse. I even found an entire article

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Speaker 1: like pointing to this is this stage. This is the

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Speaker 1: stage from one episode of What the Newer Batman um

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Speaker 1: And she's pretty obsessed with him, and he uses and

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Speaker 1: abuses her, does not love her. Her shirt and Suicide

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Speaker 1: Squad read Daddy's little Monster as if she was his possession.

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Speaker 1: Robbie has been very open about how she wasn't a

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Speaker 1: fan of Harley Quinn's outfit and Suicide Squad, particularly the

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Speaker 1: as she called them, gratuitous hot pants, and her vision

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Speaker 1: in this movie. Harley Quinn's vision of her deepest desire

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Speaker 1: was that a normal her with a normal Joker, had

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Speaker 1: normal kids and a normal house, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: fans saw that as a major disservice to her character.

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Speaker 1: It's fair to say she is largely essentially the female

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Speaker 1: version of the Joker, right down to the broken psyche.

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Speaker 1: Some speculate that Harley Quinn was Harley Quinzl, trying to

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Speaker 1: find her identity after defining herself by what she thought

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Speaker 1: society expected of her for so long, only to fall

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Speaker 1: in the trap of defining herself through an unstable man.

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Speaker 1: Whatever the case, Harley Quinn is someone looking out for

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Speaker 1: her own self interest, which frequently means partnering with villains

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Speaker 1: and heroes. In more recent iteration, she has moved away

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Speaker 1: from the Joker and worked with more women like Poison Ivy,

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Speaker 1: whom some have interpreted to be in a sexual relationship,

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Speaker 1: that they're in a sexual relationship together, and even Batgirl

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Speaker 1: in twenty eighteens heroes in Crisis comic series, and that's

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Speaker 1: actually something a lot of really big Harley Quinn bands

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Speaker 1: point out is that she does have capacity for loyalty

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Speaker 1: and compassion where the Joker does not. That's one thing

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Speaker 1: that separates her from him. And yes, while she has

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Speaker 1: never been a member of the Birds of Prey, she

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Speaker 1: has made appearances in their stories, notably in The Man Slaughter,

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Speaker 1: which was an arc from the Bat Girl and the

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Speaker 1: Birds of Prey run by Sean Angelia Benson. In Manslaughter,

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Speaker 1: several of the men of the DC universe are inflicted

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Speaker 1: with a mysterious, deadly virus. In order to find a cure,

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Speaker 1: the Birds of Prey worked with some villainous anti heroine

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Speaker 1: I guess characters like Poison Ivy, Catwoman, and Harley Quinn.

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Speaker 1: The virus was the product of a cult seeking to

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Speaker 1: quote d the tyranny of men, men only understand one language.

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Speaker 1: Violence With the men of Gothlam, incapacitated women are free

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Speaker 1: to walk the streets without fear judgment, sexual harassment, robbery,

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Speaker 1: or other violence against them. Imagine if it was like

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Speaker 1: this every day, and then I wanted to read this.

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Speaker 1: I like this little panel I found from this comic.

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Speaker 1: So it's a detective talking to you. I believe bat

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Speaker 1: Girl and Black Neary thanks for taking the less conspicuous entrance.

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't be a problem getting you to the interrogation to

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Speaker 1: talk to the suspect. How are you holding up, Bad

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Speaker 1: Girl asked, well, nearly seventy of my forces outsick. But

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Speaker 1: on the bright side, crime is down. News flash. Women

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Speaker 1: are awesome. Yeah not so. One of the characters go

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Speaker 1: on to say, Miss Andrew, ain't feminism equality for all? Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And saving men certainly isn't a bad thing. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of the plots for women in this universe that

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Speaker 1: do revolve around the men in their lives, like the Joker. Perhaps.

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Speaker 1: One infamous example comes from an episode of Batman, The

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Speaker 1: Brave and the Bowl titled The Mask of Matches Malone,

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Speaker 1: when the Birds of Prey, then composed of Catwoman, Black Canary,

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Speaker 1: and Huntress had to sing a song. Of course at

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Speaker 1: this bar for villains, so they sang Birds of Prey,

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Speaker 1: But it was much more about the superhero men in

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Speaker 1: their lives than than it was about themselves, and they

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Speaker 1: sang it specifically to reach out to Batman, who was

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Speaker 1: suffering from amnesia. Because also, of course, the song had

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Speaker 1: so much innu window in it. It aired first in Australia,

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Speaker 1: but then word got out about it it had to

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Speaker 1: be edited before it aired in the United States. Do

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Speaker 1: you know the song? Oh yeah, I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to sing it? A little bit of it maybe after

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Speaker 1: the bikes are okay. The Birds of Prey had formed

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Speaker 1: many coalitions with bad girls and anti heroes, and this

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Speaker 1: is a fairly common theme to out the d C EU,

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Speaker 1: especially among the female villains. They go from antagonists to

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Speaker 1: protagonists back to antagonists. For instance, Poison Ivy joined at

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Speaker 1: one point, but turns out she was just using them

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Speaker 1: to take out targets she didn't like. This could relate

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Speaker 1: back to that quote we read and Batman returns episode

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Speaker 1: from the creator of Catwoman about how women can't be

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Speaker 1: trusted quote unquote, cool, detached, and unreliable. There's a love

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Speaker 1: resentment thing with women. Once the romance is over, somehow

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Speaker 1: they never remain my friends. Total of times Harlequin saved

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Speaker 1: the day it was to spite the Joker, Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times he'd be like, goodbye Gotham, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna blow it up, and he doesn't care that Harley

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Speaker 1: Quinn is there, so I know. In one example, she

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Speaker 1: like throws something up into his helicopters he's getting away,

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Speaker 1: so that he can't get away either. At the tail

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Speaker 1: end of November, streaming service DC Universe debut Harley Quinn

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Speaker 1: an R rated comedy, Kayley quock Quote provides the voice

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Speaker 1: of Harley and Alent two Dick as a joker the

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Speaker 1: Valente Dick also Mark Hamibell that has a long history

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Speaker 1: of playing the Joker and he was my first crush,

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Speaker 1: so that makes me happy. Um. In this show, after

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Speaker 1: realizing her relationship with the Joker is an abusive one,

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Speaker 1: with the help of her friend Poison Ivy, she leaves

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Speaker 1: with the help of her friend Poison Ivy, who by

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Speaker 1: all accounts, seems to be the best part of the show. However,

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Speaker 1: Harley still remains obsessed with the Joker and only seeks

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Speaker 1: out male accomplices to be in her sort of team.

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Speaker 1: Ivy even talks in a show about a glass ceiling

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Speaker 1: for female villains, even even female If you're curious, Harlequinn,

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Speaker 1: the word can mean several things, but here most significantly

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Speaker 1: clown or buffoon, a stock comic character originating in the

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Speaker 1: Comedia dell Arte, the Foppish lover of a combine and

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Speaker 1: the English harlequinad. He is usually represented in a diamond

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Speaker 1: pattern multicolored tights, wearing a black mask, or another definition

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Speaker 1: levolent spirit. According to Hollywood Rumor, a movie called Gotham

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Speaker 1: City Sirens is in the works, and that would feature

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Speaker 1: Margot Robbie's Harlequin working with Selina Kyle Catwoman, and Pamela

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Speaker 1: Eiley plast Poison Ivy. But okay, she's not in the

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Speaker 1: Birds of her So again, let's talk about actual members

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Speaker 1: of this group, starting with Dina Laurel Lance a k A.

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Speaker 1: Black Canary. Along with Barbara Gordon Slash Oracle Slash, formerly

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Speaker 1: back Girl, she makes up the heart of the team,

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Speaker 1: a founding member who is one of the main stays.

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Speaker 1: She also was a founding member of the Justice League.

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Speaker 1: The character actually debuted way earlier in nine, although this

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Speaker 1: was the mother of the current Black Canary um as

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Speaker 1: a secondary super sexualized villain slash love interest. That's how

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Speaker 1: she made her original debut, but she was immediately well received.

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Speaker 1: Both an idealist and toughest nails. Black Canary is great

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Speaker 1: at hand a hand combat, an excellent leader, and she

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Speaker 1: has an ability called Canary Cry, which can shattered glass

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Speaker 1: and recury jumps incapacitate pretty much anybody. And I did

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Speaker 1: think that was kind of funny, given the whole shrill

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Speaker 1: thing women get labeled with all the time. But look,

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Speaker 1: she turned it into a weapon. She weaponized the tools

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Speaker 1: of her oppression. Right. While she is one of the

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Speaker 1: rare female characters created without a male analog in the

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Speaker 1: DC universe, she is not too infrequently played as supporting

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Speaker 1: character to her boyfriend, the Green Arrow. Right. Gail Simone,

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Speaker 1: the writer we mentioned earlier that did a bulk of

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Speaker 1: these bird of Prey she had a big hand in it,

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Speaker 1: has publicly stated that in her characterization, Black Canary was bisexual.

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Speaker 1: This character recently featured in the c w's Arrow, played

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Speaker 1: by Katie Cassidy Right. Also in the c W version

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Speaker 1: is Sarah Lawrence played by Katie Loates, which is not

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Speaker 1: featured in the comics. She is the predecessor for the

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Speaker 1: Black Canary as just the Canary, and it is one

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Speaker 1: of the first bisexual characters in the most recent TV versions. Huh.

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Speaker 1: Best Selling author Meg Cabot recently took a stab at

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Speaker 1: the character, writing a new origin story for Black Canary

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Speaker 1: aimed at young girls, called Black Canary Ignite, which is

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Speaker 1: really exciting because young girls, I think aren't too often

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Speaker 1: unfortunately the target audience for comics, so it's cool that

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Speaker 1: we're moving that way. The other person at the core

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Speaker 1: of the Birds of Prey is Barbara Gordon Slash Oracle

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Speaker 1: Slash four Molli back Girl, first appearing in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: seven as a female component to Batman, who at first,

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Speaker 1: by the way, insist she gives up crime fighting because

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Speaker 1: she's a woman. She is a genius, she has a

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Speaker 1: doctorate in library science. She's great with technology. She can

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Speaker 1: speak a ton of languages. Business Week included her as

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Speaker 1: the only woman on their top ten most Intelligent Fictional

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Speaker 1: Superheroes list in two thousand and six. Conceived during the

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Speaker 1: Silver Age of comics and during the Women's liberation movement,

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Speaker 1: she was meant to represent smart, career oriented women in

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Speaker 1: the Killing Joke, which was an issue a comic, The

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Speaker 1: Joker shoots her, who she was Batgirl at the time.

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Speaker 1: In the spine, and then she takes pictures of her

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Speaker 1: because he's as sadist as she rise in pain. As

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Speaker 1: a result, she has paralyzed from the waist down and

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Speaker 1: uses a wheelchair. She also suffers from PTSD, But that

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Speaker 1: whole storyline is more about how Batman and her father

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Speaker 1: feel about the whole thing, like the reason the Joker

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Speaker 1: did it was to drive her dad insane and proved

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Speaker 1: a Batman that even the best men can can lose

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Speaker 1: their minds Um and the writer later called it shallow

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Speaker 1: and ill conceived. This actually inspired future DC and Barbara

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Speaker 1: Gordon writer UM Gail Simone to make the Women in

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Speaker 1: Refrigerators website, which documents the numerous cases of violence against

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Speaker 1: women in comics, particularly sexualized violence, to showcase only done

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Speaker 1: to to show how it impacts them and how it

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Speaker 1: hurts the men. After being shot, Barbara Gordon takes on

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Speaker 1: the new secret Identity Oracle. In more recent storylines, she

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Speaker 1: is quote cured and becomes Batgirl again, sparking conversations around

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Speaker 1: able is um and that whole overcoming disability conversation Bridget

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Speaker 1: and I had in a past episode which there are

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Speaker 1: so many essays out there about this particular character um

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Speaker 1: able ism and um also being a librarian, which is

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Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting. Even though she was the

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Speaker 1: main character, she only appeared on one third of the covers,

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Speaker 1: and she was frequently drawn in a frumpy manner until

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Speaker 1: later and later runs, which is problematic as well. She

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Speaker 1: was portrayed by Yvone Craig in the nineteen sixties Batman

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Speaker 1: TV show, and the actress appeared as Batgirl in nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: He s a advocating for equal pay for women. All right,

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Speaker 1: then that girl, Yeah, that's right, And then there's Huntress

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Speaker 1: a k a. Helena Bertonelli. Like most of the characters

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Speaker 1: were talking about, she's had a lot, a lot, a

422
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: lot of storylines. We should have said that at the top,

423
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: like they've been rebooted so many times, it's hard to

424
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: say which particular storyline, but anyway, she one of her

425
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: storylines um the Huntresses, and one of them she was

426
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: the daughter of Batman and Gentleman. But the one they're

427
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: going with in the new film is her past in

428
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: the mafia and her loss of her family and a

429
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: mob hit, a storyline introduced in She's a fairly violent

430
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: character with a particular affinity for crossbows. Because of this,

431
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: Batman generally did not approve of her methods, and she

432
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: devoted a lot of time to earning his approval. That

433
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: didn't stop her from spending some time with the Just

434
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: This League and after that the Birds of Prey, and

435
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: while she's not an original member of the Birds of

436
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: Prey team, she did become integral and one of the

437
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: most well known characters for sure. Her story arcs generally

438
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: involves her obsession with vengeance and letting go of her

439
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: family's violent past to become Huntress. She was reintroduced as

440
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: an Italian African American woman in the New fifty two

441
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: and this character was a villain during the first two

442
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: seasons of Arrow, played by Jessica de Gao. And then

443
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 1: there is Cassandra Caine a k A. Batgirl or orphan

444
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: in the comic book World. She is the daughter of

445
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: two assassins, Lady Shiva and David Kine, and the pair

446
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: raised their daughter to be an assassin too. In some

447
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: versions of the comic, she was raised not to speak,

448
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: but to instead use those parts of her brain to

449
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: read body language and general movements. She went on to

450
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: become an assassin in service of Barbara Gordon. Slash Oracle

451
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: not an official member of the Birds of Prey, multiple

452
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: characters have taken on the Backgirl Mantle Cassandra Caine is

453
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: one of the most well known behind Barbara Gordon. Right.

454
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: Then there's a Lady black Hawk, a pilot who was

455
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: a member of the World War Two black Hawks and

456
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: pulled from the nineteen fifties into these are modern times.

457
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: She did not become a regular in the Birds of

458
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: Prey comics though, until two thousand four. You know, doing

459
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: the research for this, it's oftentimes all right, something, and

460
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: then I'll think this is too weird, this is too weird.

461
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: But then I was reading this like, maybe it's not

462
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: too weird, and that's a lot of stuff going on here.

463
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: Another character and we need to talk about is Renee Montoya.

464
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: She is detective in the Gotham City Police Department's Major

465
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: Crimes Unit. She eventually left the police when she couldn't

466
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: handle the rampant corruption anymore. Originally created for Batman the

467
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: animated twos in, she's now one of the most prominent

468
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: gay characters in the comics. Her superhero Guys was the question.

469
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: Although she didn't accept her membership offer into the Birds

470
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: of Prey. She didn't do it. Thanks. There are so

471
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: many other characters we could talk about. Misfit who, oh

472
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: misfit is she her saying is dark Vengeance, um Black Alice,

473
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: big barda Hawk Girl, Katana who we were telling me

474
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: he's also Big Girl was there as well. She was

475
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: introduced in the Arrow. And I think Legends of Tomorrow

476
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: has all of these people in there as well. I've

477
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: not watched Legends of Tomorrow too much, but yeah, they

478
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of different characters that kind of jumped. Yeah,

479
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's always fun. But there's this whole

480
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: world to pull from. But that's that's who we're going

481
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: to cover for today. But we do have a little

482
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: bit more for you. But first we have one more

483
00:28:44,920 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.

484
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. And we just wanted to wrap up

485
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: on some I guess observations, some themes, starting with I

486
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: was in my head comparing Birds of Prey to other

487
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: superhero groups like the Avengers, are Justice League, our Team Titans,

488
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: and I do feel that the scale of what Birds

489
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: of Prey dealt with is less compared to teams made

490
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: up of mostly men, like the Avengers are Justice League,

491
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,719
Speaker 1: not that it's any less important. They're fighting like human trafficking,

492
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: drug trafficking, all kinds of things, anything like world impending disasters. Yeah,

493
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: it feels at least because I have read some of

494
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: all of these, but I'm not. I haven't read all

495
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: all of them, but I did get this sort of

496
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: vibe that they're like, let the big boys handle this

497
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: whole world ending thing and you can take care of

498
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: these smaller To me, this sounds like where the DC

499
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 1: as Justice League and then the Birds of Prey, Marvel

500
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: has the Avengers and then the Defenders. You're kind of like, oh,

501
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: this is a big screen. This is a small screen,

502
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: although obviously it is a big screen now, thank you

503
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: very much, Margo, Robbie and then some but yeah, that's

504
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: what it looks like, the little, scaled down version of

505
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: here's another set of superheroes that you may be like,

506
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: but they're not as cool. Right, We're gonna we're gonna

507
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: pretend like or not write them as cool, right. And

508
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: I something else that does get ignored or glossed over

509
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: a lot is you know, the founder of the Avengers

510
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: was the Wasp like a women are at the heart

511
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: of a lot of these big groups but you never

512
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: um and and like Wonder Woman, for example, is also

513
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: a secretary. Like there's always this kind of weird layer

514
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: that I do think it is changing, but very very slowly.

515
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: And another thing that's changing very slowly that I wanted

516
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: to comment on here costuming because I really would recommend

517
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: looking at pass covers if you're interested, because it's impossible,

518
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: impossible not to see the male gaze in the overt

519
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: sexualization of these characters, who, I remind you are crime fighters, right, superheroes,

520
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: they're outfoot choices for combat. They leave a lot to

521
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: be desired. One is like just the bronze and spenders

522
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: underwhere and that's it. Well, you know, I mean I

523
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: do enjoy being panceless, but true, I would feel really

524
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: self conscious trying to jump buildings and only my you know,

525
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: we need to think about what our superhero costumes are,

526
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: Like I think one would be my really bracketty robe.

527
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm just sitting onto the couch. Oh the

528
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: couch comes. Yeah, like someone is carrying me on a

529
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: couch as I'm like stop that this is interesting. Exact

530
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: for here of the tactic. Stop it. So you need

531
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: to find am I am I the your partner. I

532
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: carry the cage. I don't know if you're carrying the

533
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: couche as much as you join me every now and

534
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: again we're like, hey, don't do that, it's not cool. Yeah,

535
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: I'm with her. She said, how effective we'd be, but

536
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: we'd probably be more comfortable than a lot of the

537
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: women in these happens. That is something that is also changing,

538
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: and um, it's interesting to read from female writers the

539
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: importance of that to them that their outfit choice be practical.

540
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it can't be sexy exactly, but practical.

541
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: That shouldn't be the forefront the focus on the outfit.

542
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: So also, while we're thinking about it, anti heroin slash

543
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: bad girl trope, that's something that we see a lot

544
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: of in the characters we've been discussing and certainly want

545
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: to come back to what we're actually gonna do an

546
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: episode on the history of the bad girl trope and

547
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: the good bad girl trope, which has been a conversation

548
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: back and forth about who has power the good girl

549
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: bad girl idea. I never heard of the good bad

550
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: girl shope until I looked into this and and the

551
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: examples they gave, like, we're faith from Buffy who is

552
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: still good but but bad meaning she likes to have

553
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: sex usually. Yes, yeah, so definitely planning on coming back

554
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: to that. But I do think this, this DC universe

555
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: has a lot of examples of anti heroines or bad girls.

556
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 1: So excited to come back and talk about that. They

557
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: are definitely, particularly when we're talking about The Joker and

558
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: Harley Quinn and Barbara Gordon. There there's whole issues of

559
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: representation when it comes sable is m and the depiction

560
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: of mental illness right, which I think has always been

561
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: a thing with crime fighting movies, fantasy crime fighting movies.

562
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 1: They kind of take that and make it into um

563
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: almost the antagonist in itself. Yeah, as a theme. Yeah,

564
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: it's generally coded as this person is a villain if

565
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: they have any kind of mental illness. Yes, yes, The

566
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: Joker is a great example, a great example, and comic

567
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: books do have a very long history of not so

568
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: great representation of women and over a sexualization of female characters. Actually,

569
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: at least one of the writers who's writing for it

570
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: now or has been up until recently, got the job

571
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: because she wrote d C and complained about their portrayal

572
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: of women, and that is changing. Recent research shows that

573
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: more and more women are getting their own storylines and titles,

574
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: and a lot of this is linked to the increase

575
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: in female creators of female writers and artists in the industry.

576
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: So that is a good thing. But we still have

577
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: a long way to go. Else we can see on

578
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: Twitter as we get well. Twitter. Twitter makes you feel

579
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: like the world's on There's a long way to go

580
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: for everything, I suppose, but that could be true. That

581
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: could be true. It's an interesting place to end our

582
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: Birds of Pray episode. It's kind of funny because it

583
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: does keep it in the forefront hunt because it's a

584
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: continuous debate. I know, I know. We can make things happen.

585
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: We can and so can you listeners, And we would

586
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: love to hear from you if there's any Birds of

587
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Prey character we didn't mention. Our favorite favorite issue, the

588
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: comic from always looking for recommendations, you can email us.

589
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: Our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heeart

590
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at

591
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram that stuff I've Never

592
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: told you. Thanks as always to super producer Andrew Howard.

593
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks to you for listening stuff I've never

594
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: told you the production of I Hiart Radios How Stuff Works.

595
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 1: For more podcast i Hear Radio, visit the ihe Radio app,

596
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,