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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to cops, a prep

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Speaker 1: school grad now thirty one. Some would say a rich,

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Speaker 1: spoiled brat uses a golf club to kill his own

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Speaker 1: little brother and the family cat and their six thousand,

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Speaker 1: three hundred dollars a month apartment.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Prep school grad now thirty one, according to cops, uses

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Speaker 1: a golf club to murder his own brother and the

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Speaker 1: family cat and their lux apartment. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Tragedy on fools in the preppy college town of Princeton,

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Speaker 3: New Jersey, when ex university a Michigan Sunker star Joseph

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Speaker 3: Hertkin is found dead in his apartment.

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Speaker 1: How can this be an and idealic setting? Money rolling

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Speaker 1: in money right there in the shadows of an ivy

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Speaker 1: league institution. One brother allegedly clubs the other brother dead

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Speaker 1: with the golf club, then stabs him multiple times, and

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Speaker 1: then murders the family cat.

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Speaker 4: Listen, flashing lights and cyberns break the usual silence outside

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Speaker 4: the luxury Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.

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Speaker 4: Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to

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Speaker 4: one one call to the nearly seven thousand dollars a

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Speaker 4: month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in

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Speaker 4: the building sell for as much as two million dollars.

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Speaker 4: As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work

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Speaker 4: to gain access to the building.

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Speaker 2: True words are never spoken.

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Speaker 1: Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a month apartment, and they can't be happy.

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Speaker 2: With every luxury they could be provided.

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Speaker 1: Still, brother kills brother, a story as old as Genesis.

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we are learning tonight, Straight out to Karen wall Sing,

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Speaker 1: your local editor Patch Media.

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Speaker 2: Karen, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: First of all, can you describe where this occurred.

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Speaker 5: This apartment is in on the middle of a very

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Speaker 5: new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,

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Speaker 5: and they're right in the middle of Palmer Square, which

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Speaker 5: is high end shops. The whole block where they are

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Speaker 5: is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly from

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Speaker 5: the street. You have to go through an archway to

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Speaker 5: get into it.

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Speaker 2: When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 5: We're talking high end boutiques, you know, where you're not

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Speaker 5: walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars

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Speaker 5: a month in income.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing to me to look at all

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Speaker 1: these photos, and guys, we're getting these photos that you're

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Speaker 1: seeing right there off of there the family's social media.

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Speaker 2: That's where we're learning.

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Speaker 1: So much about these two soccer star brothers now one dead.

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Speaker 2: You know Phil Waters help me out here. Phil Waters.

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Speaker 1: Guys you know him well, Former homicide detective for Houston PD,

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Speaker 1: president's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean, I've been

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Speaker 1: in so many housing projects of Trump through crack houses, brothels,

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, you name it, under bridges,

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Speaker 1: and strip clubs where murders go down. But really you're

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Speaker 1: looking down at what Brooks brothers and Ann Taylor that's

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Speaker 1: probably not pause enough actually with and these people still with.

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Speaker 2: All of that, they still have to kill each other.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these two were soccer stars at preppy schools,

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Speaker 1: bringing in tons of money, silver spoon, the works.

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Speaker 2: What is wrong with these people?

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Speaker 6: Well, it just goes to show that people with money

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Speaker 6: still have problems like the rest of us, as you've

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Speaker 6: already thought.

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Speaker 1: Wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong, then okay.

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Speaker 2: Problems, yeah, problems. But I don't have the.

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Speaker 1: Problem that I want to murder a family member and

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Speaker 1: our cat and dog and guinea pig.

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Speaker 2: I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.

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Speaker 1: I call a problem an illness, a family member with

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Speaker 1: maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and

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Speaker 1: living under a bridge, those are problems. The urge, the

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Speaker 1: sudden urge to club your brother dead with a golf

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Speaker 1: club then stab.

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Speaker 2: Him, I don't call that a problem. I call that

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Speaker 2: premeditation and murderous intent.

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Speaker 6: Well, I would have to say that is something like

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Speaker 6: this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.

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Speaker 6: And what I have noticed that if I have a

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Speaker 6: case like this, in all my cases that I always

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Speaker 6: put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when

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Speaker 6: I get them in the interview room, I want to

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Speaker 6: be able to address the wise behind the act. And

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Speaker 6: in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is

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Speaker 6: that in the description in the media of these two men,

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Speaker 6: the younger brother the victim. Here Joseph has always described

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Speaker 6: in his great successes in high school and his great

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Speaker 6: successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,

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Speaker 6: with his academics, and then his success with his job,

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Speaker 6: the work that he's been involved in. And then when

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Speaker 6: you talk about the description of the brother the suspect

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Speaker 6: in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.

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Speaker 6: So there is a real backstory here that is yet

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Speaker 6: to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.

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Speaker 6: This was not an instant decision. This is something that

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Speaker 6: has been building, building, building, and this is, you know,

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Speaker 6: what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in

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Speaker 6: this case, it's a smoking golf club.

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Speaker 1: No, no to everything you just said. All of what

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Speaker 1: you just said may very well be true. Okay, may

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Speaker 1: be true, but what you are describing is a motive

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Speaker 1: for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't

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Speaker 1: see that as a problem that we all have a

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Speaker 1: family problem that would lead to a drastic act.

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Speaker 2: In my mind, would be something severe or not.

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Speaker 1: You're jealous of your little brother, because yeah, did you

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Speaker 1: on the soccer field? And speaking of jealousy in this

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Speaker 1: case to especial guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renowned criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, at Minton, Bassett, Flores and Carsey, And let

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Speaker 1: me add former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers

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Speaker 1: Educational Institute, Sam, I hear everything fil just said, and

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Speaker 1: he may be factually one hundred percent accurate. But about

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Speaker 1: five years into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was

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Speaker 1: looking over at a defense a killer, a murderer, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't his first time, and I thought, why why

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Speaker 1: would he leave such a wake of pain behind him

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Speaker 1: over nothing?

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Speaker 2: And then it hit me five years it took me

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Speaker 2: why ask why?

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Speaker 1: Because the state never has to prove motive, does it,

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Speaker 1: Sam Bassett?

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Speaker 7: It does not.

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Speaker 8: I think this case kind of has a resonating theme

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Speaker 8: in Texas. A few years ago we had a Clay

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Speaker 8: case where the defense put on an expert to talk

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Speaker 8: about the affluenza, the psychological effect of well health and

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Speaker 8: privilege on a young man who had committed a crime

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Speaker 8: and to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell

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Speaker 8: on unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public, because

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Speaker 8: it's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to

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Speaker 8: stomach how somebody with all these.

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Speaker 7: Privileges and all these.

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Speaker 8: Blessings could do something like this. And I think you

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Speaker 8: have to begin to peel the onion skin layers and

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Speaker 8: try to understand what was going on inside this older

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Speaker 8: brother's head.

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Speaker 7: Other than just jealousy.

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Speaker 8: It has to be something even worse.

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Speaker 2: You just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.

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Speaker 1: Why do I have to get in his head and

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Speaker 1: look around in there to figure out why he brutally

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Speaker 1: murdered his brother and the family cat.

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Speaker 2: Now you were referring to a.

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Speaker 1: Defense called afluenza when typically an adult manchild is so

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Speaker 1: eased to a silver spoon in his mouth that he

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Speaker 1: can't relate to real life. Now, see right now, you're

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Speaker 1: barking up the wrong tree. My dad worked the swing

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Speaker 1: shift for the railroad my whole life, and my mom

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Speaker 1: started off as a bank teller. All right, So the

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Speaker 1: whole affluenza I'm too rich to be held accountable thing

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Speaker 1: is not working right here. But speaking of the affluenza teen,

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Speaker 1: he was not a teen. But the affluenza defense you're

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Speaker 1: referring to Ethan Couch, I remember him well, a Terran

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Speaker 1: County case.

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Speaker 6: Listen, ar Kenny and I one, what is your ask emergency?

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Speaker 2: The record Road really need some Manbuel that we flipped.

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Speaker 7: And so again, Okay, were you involved.

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Speaker 2: In the truck?

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Speaker 9: Okay, you're in this truck.

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Speaker 2: Are you injured? We just like to how many people

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Speaker 2: are injured?

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Speaker 3: Just for my record, If you don't know how many

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Speaker 3: people would injured, we're.

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Speaker 2: That's him, Ethan Couch.

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Speaker 1: He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,

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Speaker 1: including a youth minister on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently

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Speaker 1: paralyzing another victim.

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Speaker 2: And take a listen to the sentence.

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Speaker 9: Look at my brother.

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Speaker 10: He's doing more than a twenty eight day period one

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Speaker 10: twenty eight or whatever.

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Speaker 9: He's doing more than ten years of probation.

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Speaker 4: Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills

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Speaker 4: four people while driving under the influence of drugs and

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Speaker 4: speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special

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Speaker 4: defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the

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Speaker 4: blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on

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Speaker 4: the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for

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Speaker 4: anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.

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Speaker 1: If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in

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Speaker 1: jail right now as it was, it was a lesser volunteery.

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Speaker 1: He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on each count.

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Speaker 2: But what did he get?

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Speaker 1: An unspecified sentence to a treatment facility. He goes on

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Speaker 1: the run and he's found with his mother hold up

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Speaker 1: in a five star resort in Mexico. He was caught

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Speaker 1: ordering room service, ordering pizza. Okay, him ethan couch.

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Speaker 2: You brought it up.

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Speaker 1: I didn't affluenza. And that's what we're seeing here as well.

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Speaker 1: When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the

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Speaker 1: permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at

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Speaker 1: Fort Worth Star Telegram.

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Speaker 11: Back to this case, listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night,

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Speaker 11: Princeton Police receiving that one one call about a dead

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Speaker 11: body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller,

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Speaker 11: Matthew Hurkin, remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the

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Speaker 11: dispatcher's questions about who is dead, why they are dead,

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Speaker 11: who owns the apartment? And more police and first responders

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Speaker 11: surround the building. But nothing could have prepared officers for

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Speaker 11: what they found inside.

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Speaker 1: Two our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch Media.

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Speaker 2: What did they find inside Karen.

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Speaker 5: Reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family cat dead,

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Speaker 5: and they found a bloody knife plate, and Joseph's eyeball missing.

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Speaker 2: The cat apparently had been set on fire.

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Speaker 5: We are working to confirm those details of passions.

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Speaker 3: Twenty six year old University of Michigan grad soccer prodigy

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Speaker 3: Joseph Herkin is found dead along with his cat in

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Speaker 3: a fiery blaze at his New Jersey apartment.

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Speaker 2: Is this a case of simple sibling rivalry?

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Speaker 1: According to Phil joining us right now, Phil Waters, veteran

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, it was a rage attack. Why do you

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Speaker 1: say that, Well, just.

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Speaker 7: The scene itself.

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Speaker 6: When I walk into a scene like this, the first

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Speaker 6: thing that's going to stick out to me is it's overkill.

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Speaker 7: You know, this use of a.

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Speaker 6: Golf club and a knife and the condition of the

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Speaker 6: body of the victim.

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Speaker 7: And then you've got.

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Speaker 6: This this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.

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Speaker 6: So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that

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Speaker 6: happened in that scene. This is one of these things

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Speaker 6: where as I walked in any scene, I let it

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Speaker 6: talk to me. I want to take a look at

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Speaker 6: it and what are these things indicate to me about

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Speaker 6: what happened in this moment in time in that apartment.

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Speaker 1: Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner

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Speaker 1: at the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners at Vegas.

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Speaker 2: Never lack of business.

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Speaker 1: She's seen more dead bodies than probably all of us

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Speaker 1: put together, even having visited many crime saying, doctor Gorniac,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Do you agree with

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Speaker 1: Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this is a rage attack?

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Speaker 2: If so, why I.

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Speaker 10: Am not sure I can agree with that because that's

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Speaker 10: outside of my lane.

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Speaker 9: So as a frontic pathologist or a.

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Speaker 10: Death investigator, we go in and we note the injuries

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Speaker 10: that we see, but to categorize it as a rage,

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Speaker 10: that's not what we typically do. But I can understand

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Speaker 10: why Philis is saying that an overkilled because the use

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Speaker 10: of more than one weapon, a golf club and a

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Speaker 10: sharkforce instrument as the nice.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean by that? What here lazy to call

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Speaker 1: it overkill?

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Speaker 10: Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you

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Speaker 10: have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and

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Speaker 10: then you have a sharp force weapon which is a knife.

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Speaker 10: I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it

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Speaker 10: sounds like most of them are from the golf club.

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Speaker 10: I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and

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Speaker 10: sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab wound and

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Speaker 10: someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six, so depending

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Speaker 10: on that or just a number of wounds that you

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Speaker 10: can take a golf club and strike somebody in the

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Speaker 10: head one time and cause their death, or you strike

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Speaker 10: them about the body and not only do they have

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Speaker 10: head injury, but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Gorniac, Have you ever seen a murder victim that

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Speaker 1: had a body part gouged out as in this case?

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Speaker 9: I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.

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Speaker 10: I've had dismembered bodies, but to go would out and

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Speaker 10: I in this case, I.

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Speaker 9: Think that would have given me the willies.

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Speaker 10: If I was at that scene, because I mean, I've

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Speaker 10: seen a lot, but that probably would have been a

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Speaker 10: little bit too much for me.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalshewsky again, Doctor Jeff.

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Speaker 2: Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?

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Speaker 1: Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to

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Speaker 1: hear what's the motive?

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Speaker 2: Right? They want to hear?

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Speaker 1: Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The

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Speaker 1: alleged killer. The brother in this case was the middle child.

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Speaker 1: The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect

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Speaker 1: in every way.

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Speaker 2: He himself was a shining star.

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Speaker 1: He played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in

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Speaker 1: Tom's River.

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Speaker 2: He went on to play.

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Speaker 1: Soccer a starting soccer player for another elit prep school, Wesleyan.

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Speaker 1: I guess that wasn't enough to satisfy his ego.

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Speaker 2: Whats with the middle child syndrome?

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Speaker 12: Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,

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Speaker 12: so that they have to do things to get more attention.

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Speaker 12: But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous

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Speaker 12: of a little brother. There's a lot more going on

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Speaker 12: in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier

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Speaker 12: about using a golf club and then a knife, we

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Speaker 12: talked about is this a rage killing.

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Speaker 7: There's more going on than this.

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Speaker 12: You know, someone uses a golf club, and I've had

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Speaker 12: plenty of cases where people have used golf clubs and

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Speaker 12: gaged out eyes and said pets on fire. Believe it

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Speaker 12: or not, the golf club can't kill you, but it's

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Speaker 12: usually it can be on one hip, but it's not

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Speaker 12: a very efficient murder weapon. So for what we talked

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Speaker 12: about already, in this case, this killer was obviously into

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Speaker 12: the experience of the murder, took it a step further.

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Speaker 12: Wh're gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience rather than

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Speaker 12: just aim I want to off my brother that I'm

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Speaker 12: jealous of, and then the idea of setting the cat

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Speaker 12: on fire again. For some reason, this person is carrying

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Speaker 12: out these acts and these murders for the experience rather

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Speaker 12: than just the motivation or the aim that I want

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Speaker 12: to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Kellashowski, hold on, I'm just a JD. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist like yourself. Author of Dark Sides on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: doctor Jeff Kalashewsky, forensic psychologist, doctor Jeff the experience. We've

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Speaker 1: been analyzing that theory in depth when it relates to

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Speaker 1: Brian Koberger, the pad criminology student out at Pullman in

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Speaker 1: Washington State, and the working theory is that with no

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Speaker 1: connection to the four murdered college students, murdered in their

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Speaker 1: own beds in the wee hours of the morning before

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with the experience. He

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Speaker 1: had been asking in a study for his PhD, asking

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Speaker 1: violent felons a questionnaire like, what did you feel just

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Speaker 1: before you committed the crime? What were you thinking, what

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Speaker 1: were you feeling? What went through your mind? What did

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Speaker 1: it feel like when you identified your quote target? How

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Speaker 1: did you feel during it? Were you cognizant of finding

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Speaker 1: a way out or a quick exit? In retrospect, how

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Speaker 1: do you feel about what you experienced during the crime.

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Speaker 2: He was obsessed with it, then.

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Speaker 1: Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carry them out.

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Speaker 1: Many people thinking his desire was the experience to know

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Speaker 1: what it feels like to kill someone. What are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? In this case the middle child syndrome. The

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Speaker 1: middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's

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Speaker 1: eyeball out.

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Speaker 12: For some reason, he does because, again, if this was

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Speaker 12: a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going

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Speaker 12: to kill him, like you said, that goes all the

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Speaker 12: way back to Genesis, it would have been done a

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Speaker 12: lot more efficiently, and it would have not taken us

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Speaker 12: long and this experience of using a couple murder weapons,

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Speaker 12: gouging the eyeball, setting the cat on fire.

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Speaker 7: There's more here.

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Speaker 12: Than just a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy

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Speaker 12: or just a hate of your brother.

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Speaker 1: Hey, doctor Jeff Kalsowski, listen to this. The of course,

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Speaker 1: cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we

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Speaker 1: know he was bludgeon According to police sources that spoke

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Speaker 1: to the Post, Matthew played.

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Speaker 2: Now this is the suspect. Brother.

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Speaker 1: Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shied,

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Speaker 1: fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.

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Speaker 2: He's a grown man, I bet you.

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Speaker 1: Anything, living off his mom and dad, but that remains

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Speaker 1: to be seen. He played soccer at Tom's River North

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Speaker 1: High School and went on to play at the elite

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Speaker 1: Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he played college soccer.

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Speaker 1: That's a big deal. That's hard to do. Very few

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Speaker 1: people make it onto a starting college sports team. I

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Speaker 1: don't care how great you are in little league, You're

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Speaker 1: probably not going to make it onto a college team.

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Speaker 1: He did, and he played on the college team for

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Speaker 1: years at Wesleyan.

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Speaker 2: Was that not enough? For his ego.

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Speaker 1: Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All

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Speaker 1: Big Ten soccer player played at University Michigan twenty sixteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,

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Speaker 1: two time MVP off as.

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Speaker 2: A Player of the Year, graduated.

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Speaker 1: From the Stephen m Ross School of Business, and had

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Speaker 1: a career in asset management. Per the News now hold on,

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Speaker 1: Phil Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an

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Speaker 1: older brother, by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan,

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Speaker 1: who is a shining star in his career. Phil Waters,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about how you just couldn't find that

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Speaker 1: much about the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out

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Speaker 1: a lot about the victim. We found out a lot

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Speaker 1: about the older brother, but not much about the alleged

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Speaker 1: killer brother.

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Speaker 2: Phil, You're right, well, I'll.

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Speaker 7: Tell you what. It's just an indication.

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Speaker 6: And again, and I'm looking at this thing as a

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Speaker 6: homicide cop walking into this scene.

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Speaker 7: I agree with the doctor to the good degree.

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Speaker 6: That once he started the killing, that he was getting

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Speaker 6: into the experience. And look, it started that this fuse

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Speaker 6: started burning a long time ago, in my opinion, and

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Speaker 6: it finally got to the point where something happened in

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Speaker 6: that apartment that day between he and his brother that

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Speaker 6: finally blew the lid off of this thing. And so again,

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Speaker 6: these things don't happen in a vacuum.

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Speaker 7: I just think it is it's.

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Speaker 6: I think there's more to it than just a simple jealousy.

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Speaker 6: This is something that is built and built and built

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Speaker 6: over years from a lot of different directions. And I

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Speaker 6: think the fact that we know very little about the

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Speaker 6: suspect in this case to me as a homicide cop,

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Speaker 6: as an indicator, That's why I would want to get

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Speaker 6: him in an interview room and delved into where does

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Speaker 6: this start and how did it manifest itself into this

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Speaker 6: brutal evil killing of his brother?

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Speaker 1: Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also

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Speaker 1: a college soccer star in their rise the apartment Listen?

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Speaker 4: At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive

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Speaker 4: awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurkin major's in

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Speaker 4: Business Administration, Accounting and Finance graduates with honors and lands

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Speaker 4: a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.

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Speaker 1: Wow, what you were seeing is from that we are

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Speaker 1: soccer at Michigan Facebook page The Little Brother Now did

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Speaker 1: a shining star Listen.

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Speaker 4: A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally

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Speaker 4: murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on

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Speaker 4: fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.

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Speaker 4: Thirty one year old Matthew Herkan is now in police

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Speaker 4: custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a

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Speaker 4: golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon maybe brother

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Speaker 4: Joseph Hurkin, who is an even more successful athlete, to death.

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Speaker 4: Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing an eye

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Speaker 4: and a bloody plate and fork were found not far

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Speaker 4: from his body.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Sam Bassie joining us, a veteran trial

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Texas, what do you make of the

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Speaker 1: fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,

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Speaker 1: let's hues coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,

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Speaker 1: he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and

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Speaker 1: stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,

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Speaker 1: both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.

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Speaker 1: That actually adds to the legal formula here.

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Speaker 7: I think it does.

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Speaker 8: I think it adds to the speculation that it might

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Speaker 8: have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to

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Speaker 8: be really angry at his brother and just go off

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Speaker 8: on him and he just didn't stop too.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jan Gorney, a former medical examiner in Vegas Gorniac

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Speaker 1: way in.

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Speaker 10: So we were talking before about the eye gouging being

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Speaker 10: post mortem.

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Speaker 9: I believe it post mortem.

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Speaker 10: It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're

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Speaker 10: gonna fight. We're gonna fight back. Also, where I said,

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Speaker 10: it's also it's I guess my job is easier than

445
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 10: the detectives or the attorneys because we're just involved with

446
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 10: the cause and the manner of death. So we know

447
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 10: the cause, you know, blunt force injury, sharp force injuries.

448
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 10: The manner of death is homicide. We don't deal in

449
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 10: with the whys, but as humans we always want to know. So,

450
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 10: but we're sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior.

451
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 9: And but that's what we do.

452
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 10: We because it doesn't make sense, so we're trying to

453
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 10: make sense of it and try to come up with

454
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 10: a story. But I also have to say we haven't

455
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 10: talked about mental health. I think mental health plays a

456
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 10: big role in this case. We don't know his mental status.

457
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 10: Maybe he, like you said, didn't get along with his brother,

458
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 10: but there could be some underlying mental health issues that

459
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 10: he is undiagnosed, untreated.

460
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 9: But there's something else definitely going on.

461
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.

462
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?

463
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 9: I did not.

464
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: I did not, Okay, But yet you are saying there's

465
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: a mental health issue. Can I ask you do you

466
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: have a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis,

467
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: treatment prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the

468
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: alleged killer, may have had. Do you know anything at

469
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: all regarding that.

470
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: I don't.

471
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 10: I'm just putting it another layer into the why because

472
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 10: we're trying to figure out what's the case.

473
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: So you know nothing at all about his mental health.

474
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: Yet you are because he killed his brother and gouts

475
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: his eye out, that he must have a mental illness.

476
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: Is that in your supposition? That is not it?

477
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 10: I said, we cannot not think about it. We have

478
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 10: to think about it. We're thinking about everything else. But

479
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 10: we do have a mental health issue in this country

480
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 10: that there's a lot of people that aren't treated, and

481
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 10: we have to make sure that that's not it's not

482
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 10: the why, it's not an excuse. But this obviously is

483
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 10: not normal behavior.

484
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: You.

485
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 9: I mean, I grew up with.

486
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: A sister, Doctor Gorniat.

487
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Yet again, we doctor Gorney, be half of all murder

488
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: victims across our country.

489
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: Do you believe murdering.

490
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: Anyone, let's just say, an infant lying in its crib.

491
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay?

492
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: No, then somehow, because the eyes gouged out, you are

493
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have a

494
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: mental health issue. And in my world, what that means

495
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: is he will go to a treatment facility and ultimately

496
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: walk free in about eighteen months.

497
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: That's what vig means. Dr Gorniac.

498
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 9: No, No, that's not what I'm saying.

499
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 10: So because there's also you have and I'm not a lawyer,

500
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 10: I don't try cases, but I know there's things about

501
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 10: guilty by reason of insanity.

502
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 9: I'm not saying he's insane, but there has to be.

503
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 9: We can't none.

504
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: Why did you bring it up?

505
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 9: There's things I bought you.

506
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: Not saying, then why did you bring it up?

507
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 9: Joining me.

508
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: With Patch Media. Karen, isn't it true? And this is

509
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: a lightning round, Karen, isn't it true that the alleged killer,

510
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: the brother the middle child, called nine one one?

511
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he called nine one one?

512
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: And isn't it also true when the police arrived he

513
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: opened the door and essentially led them according to the

514
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: post to there's the body right?

515
00:29:59,240 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: Yes?

516
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 6: Yes.

517
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: A family tragedy in New Jersey, a Princeton murder suspect

518
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife

519
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 3: and golf club.

520
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what

521
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: he did was wrong.

522
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: And report it to nine one one.

523
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: An usher in the police, Sam Bassett, This is a

524
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: yes no, because I.

525
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: Know you're going to want to argue this till you're

526
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: blue in the face.

527
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: But isn't our law In the American jurisprudence insanity is

528
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: based on the old McNaughton rule that was brought over

529
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: in our common law from Great Britain.

530
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: And the McNaughton rule of insanity.

531
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: Is litmus, and it is did Purp know right from

532
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: wrong at the time of the incident, not now that

533
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy. At

534
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal to

535
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: know what he did was wrong and call nine one

536
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: one and bring in the police.

537
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: Isn't that true?

538
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 8: That is true?

539
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: Call is not I knew you were going to say

540
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: something else, but go ahead.

541
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 8: Call is an indicative that he knew what was going on.

542
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 7: But you have to look beyond that.

543
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

544
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: To doctor gorneyat no offense because I consider your friend

545
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 1: and a colleague. But I don't tell you how to

546
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: perform an autopsy. Do I have I ever told you

547
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 1: how to perform an autopsy?

548
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 7: No?

549
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 9: As But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsyist.

550
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 10: I am a doctor first, So when I do autopsies,

551
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 10: we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not

552
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 10: going to say whether someone is guilty or not. I

553
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 10: also have to look at the medical.

554
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 9: History social history of my patient also, So.

555
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 10: Your pain to say that my patient, right, I will.

556
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 9: I'm not You're.

557
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: Talking about mental health issue on the alleged killer. That's

558
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: not your patient, is it.

559
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 9: It's not?

560
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 10: But I'm saying I'm saying he's crazy mental I have anxiety.

561
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 9: That is a mental health disorder.

562
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 10: Honestly anxiety right now, But I'm saying so depression, anxiety,

563
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 10: personality disorder. But there's there's something else in my opinion,

564
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 10: right And I'm not diagnosing. I'm not saying he's insane.

565
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 10: I'm not saying he didn't know right from wrong. But

566
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 10: it's part of You're trying to figure out what else

567
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 10: is in his history? So what else is in his history?

568
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 10: And I think medical mental social history is very important

569
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 10: when you're going to look at the totality of why

570
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 10: someone did something.

571
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: How about his main as hell and he is consumed mind, body,

572
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star

573
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: little brother.

574
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: What about that's not a mental illness?

575
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 10: But well maybe it's a coping Why isn't he Why

576
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 10: isn't he able to cope with that?

577
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 9: Why isn't he able to.

578
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 10: Say congratulations there and not be that jealous?

579
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: I understand, I understand that.

580
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 9: I'm not arguing.

581
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: I might say I get it.

582
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 10: But I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational behavior.

583
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 10: And I'm just saying there's many layers to everybody, and

584
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 10: we have to look at his social history.

585
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 9: You know, does he abuse drugs? I don't know. Does

586
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 9: he use alcohol?

587
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: We don't know that.

588
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 13: We child, my goodness, we have no evidence of drug

589
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 13: ins And just f y before you burn that out again,

590
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 13: voluntary use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense

591
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 13: under the mad I don't care.

592
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: If he does not have a drug problem.

593
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: I don't care if he drinks himself silly breakfast, lunch

594
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: and dinner. That is not an excuse. How about this,

595
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: Kalashewski consumed with jealousy starting from day one, when that child,

596
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: the baby brother, the murder victim.

597
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: Is brought home from the hospital.

598
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it,

599
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: and then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he

600
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: gets outshined in school.

601
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: The brother gets this great job. He doesn't.

602
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: In fact, can I see the picture the alleged killer

603
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: posted the day before the murder.

604
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: While the brother's.

605
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: Out working, the murder victim, the purpose at home taking

606
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: selfies of him.

607
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: With a cat toy. There you go, this is him.

608
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: While the brother is out making a living, he's at

609
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: home taking selfies with a cat toy.

610
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 12: Kalashevski, Well, the bottom line is, and I think the

611
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 12: medical examiner was getting into this. It's not usual for

612
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 12: her to do an autopsy and a murder victim where

613
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 12: the eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you

614
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 12: can go with the theory of this is a jealous

615
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 12: brother rage. But there's a lot of weird stuff going

616
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 12: on beyond just a murder that happened, and I think

617
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 12: those are the things that people are noticing more than

618
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 12: the straightforward murder case. And I think that's why these

619
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 12: questions of mental health comes up because of these sort

620
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 12: of unusual, weird things are outside of just a normal

621
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 12: I'm jealous of my brother and I hate him, and I'm.

622
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 7: Going to kill him.

623
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 3: I think he's dead.

624
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 9: He's been shot. He's been shot.

625
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband was shot? Yes,

626
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 3: how long ago?

627
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten

628
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: minutes ago. He was shot maybe fifteen by whome my

629
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: son who's nuts, But I didn't.

630
00:35:53,640 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: Know he was just nuts. Another spoiled rich brought preppy killer.

631
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: That one is Thomas Gilbert Junior, who guns down his father,

632
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: sends his mom out for a sandwich, and mommy trots

633
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: off to the deli, and while she's gone, he guns

634
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: down Dad because Dad finally was going to cut off

635
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr. And now we've got another

636
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: spoiled rich Bratt who murders his brother.

637
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: Now a lot.

638
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: Has been made even of our renowned medical examiner, doctor

639
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: Jan Gorniac, who ventures to guess maybe he is mentally ill,

640
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: maybe he has a drug or alcohol problem, or maybe

641
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: he's consumed with jealousy and finally kills his roommate, his.

642
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: Own little brother.

643
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 1: Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged

644
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: killer's poetry?

645
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: But first, hold.

646
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: On, I've taken the liberty of recording some of it.

647
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: Listen, is that your voice?

648
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 11: Or is that my voice? Was that the work of

649
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 11: my hands?

650
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: Or was that the work of your hand?

651
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 11: Hands? Do you like to watch me suffer? Do you

652
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 11: like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,

653
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 11: what is it that you want me to do this time?

654
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 11: Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I

655
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 11: sacrifice everything to your altar?

656
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: Is there not enough ashes already? Okay?

657
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.

658
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that

659
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: murdered his little brother is complaining about the little brother?

660
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you

661
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: like to watch me suffer? What do you want me

662
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: to do this time? Burn everything down? Must I sacrifice

663
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 1: everything to your altar?

664
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? That's how I read it, Karen Wall.

665
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?

666
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: There's reams of it online.

667
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 5: There's at least two that we were able to find

668
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 5: that I was able to find in searching.

669
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: But as the police detective said before, it.

670
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 5: Was hours of searching to find anything to even give

671
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 5: any hint of what Matt is about and who he

672
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 5: is and what is going on. The poetry is very disturbing.

673
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,

674
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,

675
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.

676
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.

677
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.

678
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing

679
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: inside of him. Now, what is it that you want

680
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: me to do this time? Do you want me to

681
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,

682
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: President of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Phil Waters, Now,

683
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people may do contortions about his mental

684
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: health as an excuse for what he did. But he

685
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: called nine one one, he ushered police into the body.

686
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: What I would describe this as is wishful thinking, blood

687
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing

688
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: the murder scene before he did it.

689
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 6: I would agree to a degree of that. I want

690
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 6: to come to the defense a little bit to the

691
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 6: good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.

692
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 6: As a homicide detective, where we're going to try to

693
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 6: determine is what happened and what was there? How was

694
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 6: how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?

695
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 6: You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,

696
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 6: and other than it being said that, I don't know that.

697
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 6: So I want to see is the autosi did the

698
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 6: eye come out because he was beating him with a

699
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 6: golf club and then once he saw that, then he

700
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 6: went ahead and finished the job. So there's a lot

701
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 6: of stuff going on here. One thing leads to the

702
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 6: other and when I would attend the autopsy, which I

703
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 6: did in every homicide case I haven't give with a doctor,

704
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 6: and we would discuss what I found at the scene.

705
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 7: So it's all part of the same formula.

706
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 6: So the discussion about mental health is going to be

707
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 6: part of the investigative discussion.

708
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.

709
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I

710
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: am standing for the crime victim. You may think me harsh,

711
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: but what matters is justice for this crime victim. The

712
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect

713
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: the crime victim. A mental health finding could result in

714
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: the defendant walking free in a matter of months after treatment.

715
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.