1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:23,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 2 00:00:23,916 --> 00:00:27,276 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein sitting in for Michael Lewis, and the 3 00:00:27,316 --> 00:00:31,596 Speaker 1: trial of Sam Bankman Freed is over. It's just before 4 00:00:31,716 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 1: nine pm on November two, and Sam Bankman Freed has 5 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 1: been found guilty on all counts. Lydia Jean, you were 6 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. Tell us what happened. 7 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 2: So, you know, we were all in the courtroom for 8 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 2: hours waiting for the verdict, and honestly, we weren't expecting 9 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:52,196 Speaker 2: a verdict at that point because they hadn't been deliberating 10 00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 2: very long. 11 00:00:53,036 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: I mean it could take days, right, It's not unusual 12 00:00:55,156 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: for truest right for days. 13 00:00:56,716 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was more chaotic in the courtroom than it 14 00:01:00,396 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 2: ever had been before. It kind of felt like there 15 00:01:02,236 --> 00:01:04,356 Speaker 2: were no rules. And there was a point in the 16 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 2: evening where I was in the front row and then 17 00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:12,076 Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed actually came in with his lawyers and 18 00:01:12,156 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 2: when he walked into the courtroom, he was really he 19 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 2: was looking around at all their reporters, and since I 20 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:20,476 Speaker 2: was in the front row, we actually even made eye 21 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 2: contact for a few seconds. It felt and honestly, it 22 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:27,476 Speaker 2: felt like too much and at that point A Marshall 23 00:01:27,516 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 2: came up to me and told me I had to 24 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:31,596 Speaker 2: move out of the first row, which felt like a 25 00:01:31,636 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 2: bit of a relief. It was almost too intense to 26 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:34,196 Speaker 2: be so close. 27 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: And what did he seem like just the. 28 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:39,796 Speaker 2: Entire day today? He just seemed really interested to be 29 00:01:39,956 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 2: looking at everyone who was in the courtroom. I noticed 30 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 2: also he was looking at the jurors pretty intently as well. 31 00:01:45,636 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 2: I don't know, it just kind of seemed like he 32 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 2: just wanted to see us. 33 00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:52,276 Speaker 1: Uh huh, So okay, so you're there. It's kind of 34 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:54,876 Speaker 1: weird you're kind of hanging out with SBF in this 35 00:01:55,036 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 1: very fraud moment. What happens next? 36 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 2: Well, then at seven point forty it was announced that 37 00:02:01,516 --> 00:02:06,076 Speaker 2: there was a verdict, and shortly after Sam bankman Fried's 38 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:08,396 Speaker 2: parents came back into the courtroom. It kind of looked 39 00:02:08,436 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 2: like Sam's dad was kind of holding up Sam's mom 40 00:02:12,356 --> 00:02:16,356 Speaker 2: a little bit, and we were all instructed to not 41 00:02:16,396 --> 00:02:18,996 Speaker 2: make any noise or react in any way when the 42 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:23,196 Speaker 2: verdict was read out loud, and then the jury came 43 00:02:23,236 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 2: in and I noticed that the jury wasn't looking at 44 00:02:27,036 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 2: the judge and the jury wasn't looking at Sam Kminfred either. 45 00:02:30,436 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 2: They were kind of just looking straight ahead to their seats. Okay, 46 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 2: the four person was during number four. She was wearing 47 00:02:38,196 --> 00:02:41,396 Speaker 2: a blue shirt and she passed the verdict to the deputy. 48 00:02:42,236 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 1: It's just a piece of paper, basically. 49 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:47,076 Speaker 2: It was just a piece of paper. The counts were 50 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 2: read by the deputy. They went through each count and 51 00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:53,836 Speaker 2: for each count she said he was guilty, so it 52 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 2: was seven guilties. And at that point I noticed that 53 00:02:59,196 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 2: Sam's dad's head was totally down. He was kind of 54 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:04,796 Speaker 2: like holding his head in his hands, and it looked 55 00:03:04,836 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 2: like Sam's mom was kind of breasting her hand on 56 00:03:07,956 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 2: his back. And you know, Sam was standing when they 57 00:03:11,836 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 2: were read going through all the charges, and there was 58 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:17,756 Speaker 2: like an awkward moment where it was like he wasn't 59 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 2: sure whether they were done, whether he could sit down, 60 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 2: or whether he should keep standing. And then he sat down. 61 00:03:24,076 --> 00:03:27,236 Speaker 1: Did he show any emotion or any response. 62 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 2: I could only see the back of his head, but 63 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:33,196 Speaker 2: I was looking really closely, and it seemed like he 64 00:03:33,276 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 2: was still doing that thing where he's like just shittering 65 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 2: a tiny, tiny bit. And you know, at the end, 66 00:03:40,876 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 2: you know, after all the proceedings were done, there's kind 67 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 2: of like a low separation between, you know, the where 68 00:03:47,516 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 2: the people who are involved in the court proceedings are 69 00:03:49,676 --> 00:03:53,276 Speaker 2: and the audience, like a little barrier and say Makemonfried's 70 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 2: parents came up to the barrier like they often do 71 00:03:55,676 --> 00:03:58,156 Speaker 2: to kind of try and say hi to him, and 72 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:01,116 Speaker 2: I noticed that he was talking to his lawyers and 73 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:04,396 Speaker 2: he wasn't turning around, which to me kind of made 74 00:04:04,436 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 2: sense because there was a whole gaggle all of us 75 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:08,516 Speaker 2: were just waiting for him to turn around to see 76 00:04:08,516 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 2: his face. He wouldn't do it. And Sam's parents also 77 00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 2: were right at the barrier waiting for him to turn around, 78 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:17,516 Speaker 2: and they were kind of like holding each other up 79 00:04:17,516 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 2: a little bit. And then he was escorted out of 80 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 2: the courtroom by his lawyers, and right when he was 81 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:27,116 Speaker 2: at the door, he turned around really quickly just to 82 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 2: look at his mom, and at that moment, she kind 83 00:04:29,876 --> 00:04:34,476 Speaker 2: of fell forward a little bit, and then she picked herself. 84 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:37,556 Speaker 1: Up and Sam went out the door. 85 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 2: And Sam went out the door. 86 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. So what happens next? 87 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 2: So Sam Bakmanfried actually has a second trial that's now 88 00:04:56,356 --> 00:05:00,316 Speaker 2: scheduled for March eleventh, because as you may remember, there 89 00:05:00,916 --> 00:05:04,356 Speaker 2: are a few other charges that weren't part of this trial. 90 00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 2: So that trial got scheduled today and it's supposed to 91 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:09,676 Speaker 2: be in March eleventh, though it could still knock go forward, 92 00:05:10,076 --> 00:05:14,956 Speaker 2: right the judge said to let him know that February first, 93 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:17,676 Speaker 2: if the prosecution wants to proceed with that trial, And. 94 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 1: What about sentencing for these charges on which he was 95 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:21,436 Speaker 1: convicted Today. 96 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:25,116 Speaker 2: They set a date for the sentencing, which is March 97 00:05:25,156 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 2: twenty eighth at nine thirty, but that could also, of 98 00:05:28,876 --> 00:05:29,956 Speaker 2: course change. 99 00:05:30,676 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 1: March twenty eighth, so months and months. 100 00:05:33,236 --> 00:05:34,956 Speaker 2: Away, months and months away. 101 00:05:35,316 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: Why why such a long gap between when he's convicted 102 00:05:39,916 --> 00:05:40,836 Speaker 1: and when he's sentenced. 103 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 2: There's usually a long gap between conviction and sentencing. It's 104 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 2: a complicated process, the way that the judge gets a 105 00:05:48,876 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 2: recommended sentence based on a lot of complicated math and 106 00:05:54,196 --> 00:05:55,156 Speaker 2: legal analysis. 107 00:05:55,236 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 1: And Lida Gien, you've been to every day of the trial. 108 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 1: You were there a few feet away from Sam just 109 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:06,476 Speaker 1: now essentially when he was convicted. What do you make 110 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 1: of things right now? Like, what are you taking away 111 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 1: from this? 112 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:13,076 Speaker 2: You know, it was interesting, I would say, every day 113 00:06:13,116 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 2: and moment of the trial was full of chatter. You know, 114 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 2: it's all journalists. We're people who love to talk, and 115 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:25,036 Speaker 2: it's kind of been NonStop conversation. After the verdict, we 116 00:06:25,036 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 2: were all in the elevator and it was so quiet. 117 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:31,276 Speaker 2: You know, we're on the twenty sixth floor. It's kind 118 00:06:31,276 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 2: of a long ride, and no one really said much 119 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 2: of anything. 120 00:06:38,396 --> 00:06:41,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, it suddenly feels more grave. Right on a certain level, 121 00:06:41,996 --> 00:06:44,156 Speaker 1: it was easy to be glib about the case. The 122 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 1: victims were sort of hazy, and Sam was like an 123 00:06:50,396 --> 00:06:54,956 Speaker 1: interesting figure, a sort of celebrity adjacent. But then suddenly, 124 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:57,396 Speaker 1: like the guilty verdict kind of snaps things into a 125 00:06:57,396 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: different kind of focus. Yeah. 126 00:07:00,636 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 2: I talked to a reporter earlier who said, you know, 127 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:07,876 Speaker 2: the moment when the verdict comes, that's when it becomes real. 128 00:07:10,356 --> 00:07:12,836 Speaker 2: He said that that's when it becomes real to the defendant, 129 00:07:12,876 --> 00:07:16,316 Speaker 2: and you know, maybe that's true, but it definitely felt 130 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 2: like in that moment that's also when it kind of 131 00:07:19,196 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 2: became real to us. It makes the whole story just 132 00:07:23,396 --> 00:07:28,836 Speaker 2: feel you know, there's real consequences and there's so many 133 00:07:28,876 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 2: people who've been hurt in so many different ways in 134 00:07:33,756 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 2: this story. 135 00:07:35,836 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 1: Okay, Lydia Jean, it was great to talk with you. 136 00:07:38,356 --> 00:07:39,116 Speaker 1: Thanks very much. 137 00:07:39,756 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 2: It was great to talk to you too. 138 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 3: As always, Jacob, We'll be back in your feed next 139 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 3: week with more expert analysis from Sam bankman Fried's trial. 140 00:07:51,156 --> 00:07:54,796 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. This episode of Judging Sam was hosted 141 00:07:54,796 --> 00:07:58,276 Speaker 3: by Jacob Goldstein, Lydia Jean Caught as our court reporter. 142 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:02,796 Speaker 3: Catherine Gerardau and Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane 143 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 3: is our editor. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi 144 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:10,036 Speaker 3: and John Evans of stell Wagon's Symphonette. Judging Sam is 145 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:13,396 Speaker 3: a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment 146 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:17,796 Speaker 3: for me, There's a website for that atr podcast dot com. 147 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 3: That's atr podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 148 00:08:23,676 --> 00:08:27,476 Speaker 3: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 149 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:30,796 Speaker 3: listen to your podcasts. 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