1 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Now, I think it's pretty clear that something bad did 2 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: happen to her. 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: Your father had his story that she was like the 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 2: witch doctor. Well, that's even more interesting. 5 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: There have been so many theories about what happened to Lorenza. 6 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: At this point, I. 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: Really believe that the best way forward may be to 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: start ruling out motives and theories and see what we're 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: left with. 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: Your father said that she killed the mayor's son or 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: daughter whatever with her stuff, and that's why they killed her. 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 4: Period. 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: So let's set aside the mafia theory that we talked 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: about in the last episode for a second and look 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: into my dad's idea and the one that is very 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: prevalent with the women in my family, the witch theory. 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 3: I'm job Piazza. 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: This is the Sicilian Inheritance, chapter five, in search of 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: my Strganna. I'm just trying to kind of drop myself 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: into her life. That yeah, Oh, that's one. 21 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 3: Of the abandoned churches. 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: After we visited the scene of the crime, we spent 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: some time just wandering around Calta, in the part of 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: town where Lorenza would have lived. It's high up on 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: the hill. The air feels different up here, it's misty, 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: almost magical. This is right where the dense streets of 27 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: the town start hitting the sheer, rocky cliffs. So you 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: want to hear something cool. So the Virgin here is 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: always bigger than Jesus. We came across a statue of 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: the Virgin Mary. I love statues of the Virgin Mary 31 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: in Sicily because they just radiate strength and power. This 32 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: is not a meek woman, This is a goddess. They 33 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: took all of the old Greek myths and the myths 34 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: from Carthaginians, like a Starte and then Diana and Aphredae, 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: and they. 36 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: Put all of those stories on the Virgin and that's why. 37 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: They accept the Christianity. But Jesus, they're like, so she's 38 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: always bigger. Mary. Here is a presence. She's wearing a 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: massive white and gold cape that flares out around her 40 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: body in a pyramid, not unlike a mountain, not unlike 41 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: this mountain that we are standing on top of. Her 42 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: head is surrounded in a glowing halo of celestial objects, 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: a sizeable circle, not a teeny tiny angel halo. No, no, no, 44 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: this is a crown. And she also always has a 45 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: halo that's like the moon for the God. And then 46 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: there's like a little. 47 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 5: Devil hollywater because they are in eternal fights, and the 48 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 5: Virgin is protecticd of course the angel, although I. 49 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: Think she's protecting them both. 50 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 5: She looks like because evil is part of the good, 51 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 5: and is part of evil. 52 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: Evil is part of the good. 53 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: I love that. 54 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: I love the idea that what some people consider to 55 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: be doing good, others consider evil, and vice versa. Sicily 56 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: is a place where magic still exists. You can believe 57 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: in the Virgin Mary and also the evil Eye. The 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: spirits of the ancestors are also very much alive here. 59 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: They exist within the mountains and the trees. Someone once 60 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: even told me that they inhabit the bodies of cats 61 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: in called Polota. So, of course, in a way, the 62 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: Virgin Mary here becomes a mashup of all of these 63 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: Greek myths and Christian beliefs. She's a healer, she's a mother, 64 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: and she's also this wonderful, witchy goddess, and it makes sense. 65 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: Sicily has a deep history of healers and spiritualists. They've 66 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: been called many, many names. One of them that I 67 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: love so much is the done k Autano, or women 68 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: who help and also strega, which does translate to which, 69 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: but really it's more than that. It's more like a 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: wise person who practices peasant medicine to help women. If 71 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: you know the word strega as an American, it's probably 72 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: from Strega Nona, the children's book about a smiling old 73 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: crone and her dufus assistant, Big Anthony. But beyond that, 74 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: Strega is not a word that comes up a lot 75 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: in my research. While I was digging and digging through 76 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: the archives in Kultwolota, it was incredibly hard to find 77 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: out if Lorenza was a Strega. It's not like it's 78 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: written on official documents anywhere. Lorenza Marsala the profession witch. 79 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: In fact, on. 80 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: Her official papers she's listed as two different things. When 81 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: she was younger, when she got married, she's listed as 82 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: a woman who spins wool into yarn, and then later 83 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: on she's listed as a farmer. 84 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 3: I asked around in. 85 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: Coult Kolota, but when you start asking anyone about witches, 86 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: you end up just getting knowing laugh, a sound that 87 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: is almost a cackle, and then silence, And so ultimately 88 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: I ended up back where this whole thing started with 89 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: some very proud Sicilian Americans. 90 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 4: Hello, this is Laurie Bruno. May you have the best 91 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 4: of all coming to you, and may all your good 92 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 4: dreams come true. 93 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: I tried, but I could not find a single Strega 94 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: in Cantabalota or anywhere else in Sicily. But when I 95 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: googled Strega, I found Lori Bruno. 96 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 4: Thank you and blessings forever to you and all that 97 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 4: you love. 98 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: Laurie is a second generation Italian. Her parents are from 99 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: Sicily and Naples. She grew up in Brooklyn and now 100 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: lives in Salem, Massachusetts. Yes, that's Salem, America's very own 101 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: witch city, and Laurie has written a lot about being 102 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: a modern day stranger. Laurie believes that her powers are 103 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: passed down through the female bloodline, and this is how 104 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: she describes herself. Laurie Bruno is a hereditary high priestess 105 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: and elder of the Sicilian Strega line of the craft 106 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: of the Wise. So I called her, obviously, and I 107 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: just straight up ast her. What is a stregat your 108 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: sag straight? 109 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 6: This is. 110 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 7: A folk wore, the folklore you know, the natural magic. 111 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 8: Okay, mm hmmmga like the country which she stays there, 112 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 8: heals people, bless his babies. 113 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: According to Lourie, Astraga is so much more than what 114 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: we think of as a witch. Like I said earlier, 115 00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: the word also means healer apothecary, often a midwee kind 116 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: of like a country witch who tends to people's daily problems, 117 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: their problems with their relationships, and also their health. It 118 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: seems to cover all of the things that women did 119 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: as doctors without calling them doctors. And then Strega also 120 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: has a little bit of the supernatural throne in we 121 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: were healers. 122 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 8: Nobody head, hey us, we did the thing with the 123 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 8: oil and the water and the fire. 124 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 7: And we removed what they called the malakia. What's that 125 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 7: the evil eyes? 126 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: Oh right, that's. 127 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 7: The evil eye. 128 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 6: Is envy. 129 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 4: The people would actually get sick with it. 130 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: Ah, the evil eye. I'm sure you've heard of the 131 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: evil eye. It's a sort of spiritual sickness caused by 132 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: other people's envy. It comes up a lot in southern Italy, 133 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: and it's believed that you can see if someone has 134 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: been struck with the malochik you by dropping olive oil 135 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: into a bowl of water. If the oil turns into 136 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: the shape of an eye. Then you've been a victim. 137 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: You have had a spell cast on you. Diagnosing and 138 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: curing the evil eye is classic Stragus stuff. 139 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 7: We believe in reincarnation. 140 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 8: It was said those who believe in reincarnation are the 141 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 8: most formidable human beings are the face of the. 142 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: Fo Reincarnation made me think of that Virgin Mary statue. Well, 143 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: and I'd also heard that Sicilian women kind of kept 144 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: the lineages and just changing the idol. So they took 145 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: the goddess the Starte and the Goddess Diana of the 146 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: moon and just kind of moved her powers into the Virgin. 147 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 8: Maryly, look at the Virgin Mary that stands on top 148 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 8: of the moon. 149 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 150 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 7: Maria Abezayana. We were to hide right up to their noses. 151 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: Hide right under their noses. From what Laurie knew, these 152 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: women operated in secret, or if not in secret, at 153 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: least very quietly. They wouldn't have left any kind of 154 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: paper trail. And this makes sense in a country converting 155 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: to Catholicism, in a country very much controlled by men, 156 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: being a woman with a supernatural power or with any 157 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: power simply wasn't safe to advertise and. 158 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 6: That's what it is. 159 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 4: Do you understand? 160 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 6: Yeah? With nevil leaves. 161 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 162 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 4: We look at the moon, we say mother Moon, dear Diana, 163 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: mother de. 164 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 8: La fella, mother deo. 165 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 4: Uverso are you the may amlia auto l mondo m 166 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 4: h which means. 167 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: To help me, help my family, help the whole world? 168 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 6: Yes, mm hmmm, that's what it is, very simply put. 169 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 6: That is our bread. 170 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: Was it dangerous for women to do this than. 171 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 4: Yes, that very dang. 172 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 7: My ancestress looked burning because you heal people with the plate. 173 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: Laurie could not say whether or not Lorenza may have 174 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: been killed for being a strega. 175 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: How could she? 176 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: But I will tell you one witch always leads to 177 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: another witch, and you can never talk to too many. 178 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 7: I think that these women probably always cause a little 179 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 7: bit of trepidation in others because they were working with 180 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 7: spiritual forces and they had that kind of power. But 181 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 7: it was more of a respect than a fear. 182 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: That is Teresa Dientino another self identified strega in the 183 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: United States. She has a pretty similar story to mine. Actually, 184 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: she had grown up being told that her great grandmother 185 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: was a straga, but without any kind of actual idea 186 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: of what that really meant. 187 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 7: They were constantly talking about seeing an ancestor in the 188 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 7: room or knowing someone had been here. There were stories 189 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 7: about hauntings and visitations, so in the hearing about the straga, 190 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 7: there was also an acceptance of what I would call 191 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 7: the otherworldly, but no one had the tradition really intact. 192 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: So in your research, what did you learn about about 193 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: the strega? 194 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 7: Okay, so I take a deep side because it's been 195 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 7: such a long journey to try to really find information 196 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 7: and I don't know if you had this situation, but 197 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 7: there's very little available on what a drega was. 198 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: Teresa dug into whatever history she could find, which wasn't much, 199 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: and she spoke to plenty of modern day practitioners who 200 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: were also not easy to find in Italy, and she 201 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: finally came to an understanding of what her great grandmother 202 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: might have been doing, a lot of which seems to 203 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: be supporting women in all phases of their lives. 204 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 7: She knew what herbs to help with fertility, to help 205 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 7: with infertility, you know, potions for love, A really important 206 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 7: person that helped the women in all their needs, and 207 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 7: they would go to her and there was secrecy and 208 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 7: they could trust her, and I just felt like losing 209 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 7: that role in our lives has been hugely devastating, hugely. 210 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: The Strega were wise women, healers, people who tended to 211 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: their community. Would that have been enough to make them 212 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: targets of some kind? I've said this before. Throughout history, 213 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: calling a woman a witch has really just been an 214 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: excuse to kill her, whether in the witch hunts or 215 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: the Inquisition, and women accused of being witches were definitely 216 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: killed in Sicily in the fourteen and fifteen hundreds, but 217 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: at least one expert that I spoke to told me 218 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: that in Lorenza's time, she didn't think that being a 219 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: healer would put a target on your back. Still, I 220 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: hate that. I hate the way that the dona Kitano, 221 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: the women who help, becomes the strega, the witch, the witch, 222 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: the witch. And that's one thing, you know, and my 223 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: family always said witch. They didn't say strega. I didn't 224 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: know the words strega until I started doing my own research. 225 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: They always said witch. And I think it's worth reclaiming 226 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: that word because it's a healer, it's a healer, it's 227 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: a care her. 228 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, My aunt scolded me when I used the word witch. 229 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 7: She said, Nonah would not have wanted to be called 230 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 7: a witch. 231 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: Now there's another idea out there, and this is one 232 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: that I read about in my research, particularly in this 233 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: one paper by the academic Sabina Maglioco. This idea is 234 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: that Italian Americans took this very real history of women 235 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: healers and stragas and the unique Italian Christianity with its 236 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: goddess e Madonnas, and then they put their own spin 237 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: on it. They created this sort of embellished image of 238 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: the Strega, these women in secret societies who carried on 239 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: an unbroken pagan tradition from ancient times until now. It's 240 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: sort of like this way to bring the old world 241 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: into the new world, to connect Italian Americans back to 242 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: the good old, magical Sicily, and it does help explain 243 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: why it was hard to find people who consider themselves 244 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: descendants of Strega in Italy itself. 245 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 3: Now do I believe any of this, I don't know. 246 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: Part of me doesn't want to. 247 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I really want to be a part of 248 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: a thousands year old Strega lady tradition, A Strega lady cult. 249 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: But I do think it is interesting this idea that 250 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: second and third and fourth generation Italian Americans like me 251 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: might want to tell a little bit of a tall tale, 252 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: maybe just a slightly overblown story about their connection to 253 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: the Old Country through ancient goddess folklore and magic. 254 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: But here's the thing. 255 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: At the risk of getting a little bit woo woo, 256 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean that train has already left the station. The 257 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: closer that I get to Lorenza, the more that I 258 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: learn about her, the more that I walk around her 259 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: village and get a sense of her life, the more 260 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: it strangely feels like she is with me, like she 261 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: wanted this story to be told, and maybe, just maybe 262 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: I was the only person who could tell it. Maybe 263 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: there is something to passing down knowledge and strength, and 264 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: dare I say it, even some kind of witchy power 265 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: through the generations. But if Lorenza is using her straga 266 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: powers to send me a message from beyond the grave, 267 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: I'm not getting it. I'm sorry, Lorenza, I don't speak 268 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: Sicilian dialect. So yeah, we're trying to figure out if 269 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: she was a midwife. So can we see if she 270 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: delivered any babies after spending days in libraries. Arguing with Clerks, 271 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: I went through decades, decades of birth records, hoping to 272 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: see Lorenza Marsala. 273 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 3: A baby died or a mother died. 274 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: But she wasn't there. There were other midwives listed, lots 275 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: of them, and sometimes the absence of information is information 276 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: in itself. So at least now we can rule out 277 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: that Lorenzo was an official midwife. We also went through 278 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: the Book of Death looking for any deaths of a 279 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: child around the time that she was killed. 280 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 3: There's nothing there. 281 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: So Lorenza, if you're listening to this podcast right now, 282 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: give me a sign, girl, give me a sign. Otherwise 283 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: we've really hit a strega dead end. And maybe it's 284 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: just another story that my family told themselves to feel 285 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: connected to Sicily, to feel better about Lorenza's loss. Right now, 286 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: we are going to rule out the witch motive, but 287 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: what about the other theories and what about Niccolo Martino, 288 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: mystery man Niccolo Martino. It's really time to start digging 289 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: in a Nicolo Martino so that we can shed some 290 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: light on that part of this mystery. 291 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 3: That's after the break. You hear that, do you hear that? 292 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: That's the gentle lapping of the Mediterranean Sea on the 293 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: fine golden sand. By the magic of podcasting, you can 294 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: almost feel the heat of the sun, the cool of 295 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: the water, and the smell of the orange blossoms. 296 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 3: Now, with a. 297 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: Few short clicks, you can taste it too, because we 298 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: have actually imported the finest Sicilian olive oil. Inspired by 299 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: this very podcast, We've partnered with Philadelphia's own Cardenis Gourmet 300 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: Foods to bring you the Sicilian Inheritance Olive Oil, a 301 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: flavor journey from the volcanic soil of ancient robes through 302 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: special terroir that family secrets and inherited stories provide. 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So 309 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: please do check out the show notes now and thank you. 310 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: Also enjoy with something delicious Vafari. 311 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 3: I've Google mapped it. 312 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, the place where we think Lorenza died along with 313 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: mystery man, Nicolo Martino, is five kilometers outside of town. 314 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: The house where she supposedly lived is right in Cultboa. 315 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: It's right around the corner from that Virgin Mary statue. 316 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes up the same road. 317 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 6: Road is Okay. 318 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 3: Someone's fiddy, soone's fidy. Someone's in a fight, a fight. 319 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: We're walking through these twisty streets in search of where 320 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: Lorenza might have lived. 321 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: I think we were supposed to go that street. Someone's 322 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: tossing some furniture. 323 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: My uncle Jimmy told me, and I'm not sure where 324 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: he got this, that the family house was at forty 325 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: five ben Fari Street around Benfari. 326 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: That's fun. I'm this town really is a labyrinth. Here's 327 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: forty two. 328 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what we're looking for. 329 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 3: Forty five. 330 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 5: Oh look, thirty this is it. 331 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is it. 332 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 6: There just used to be something over the number. 333 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: The street number is thirty thirty Benfari Street, not forty five. 334 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: Thanks for that, Uncle Jimmy. 335 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is it. 336 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: Okay. 337 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not bad. It's just a tiny, tiny house 338 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 3: with all it's the concrete apartment built into the side 339 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 3: of the mountain. 340 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll bet you I'll bet if she had a 341 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: view of us sea. Wow, it's a teeny tiny narrow building, 342 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: so narrow that I can stretch my arms wide and 343 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: be able to touch both of the walls. I very 344 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: much doubt that that much has changed since Lorenzo lived here. 345 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: We're only about a five minute walk from the center 346 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: of town, and from here you can see both the craggy, 347 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: gorgeous mountains above and the sea off to the west. 348 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: The air smells salty and fresh, and it's beautiful, but 349 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: it's also a bit of a ghost town. Many of 350 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: these old stone houses seem abandoned, but also in some 351 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: cases still furnished. You can see inside and it's almost 352 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: like Pompeii. Their chairs covered in inches of dust, kitchen 353 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: tables with cracked plates, but no one living there. There's 354 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: one garage where it looks like an explosion happened. An 355 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: entire burnt out husk of a car just sits there, 356 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: chaw abandoned, except for this woman hanging out of a 357 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,239 Speaker 1: window in the house next door. I'm a little bit 358 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: worried because she's too old to really be hanging out 359 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: the window like that. Our translator, Torre, explains what we're doing, 360 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: and it turns out she might be our distant cousin. 361 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: Go figure. I think everyone in this town is related. 362 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: And she's eager to tell us what she knows about 363 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: this house, which is not much. 364 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 3: She says that the people who lived. 365 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: In this house were named Garrado, which, if you recall 366 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: from that giant family tree that I made, is my 367 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: great grandmother, a Cursia's family name. That's Santa's wife, a 368 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: Cursia Grotto. But was part of your family. 369 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: So they could have taken over the house. Yeah, they 370 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: could have taken. 371 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: Over the house, of course, But it turns out, according 372 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: to the woman hanging from the window, they're no longer around. 373 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 5: No one is here anymore. Here, No, don't want to 374 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 5: live in here anymore. 375 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: Seeing this house gives me just another piece of Lorenzo's puzzle, 376 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: Like between that stretch of land where she died and 377 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: the maze of this town and now this little slice 378 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: of a house, I'm starting to collect the fragments of 379 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: a mosaic, the fragments and the sense of a life 380 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: in the lore of Lorenza Marsala. My family has always 381 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: focused so much on her death, only on her death, 382 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: really but being here, all I can think about is 383 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: her actual life, the full life that she lived until 384 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: her fifties. She was a mother, a daughter, a sister, 385 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: maybe a lover, who knows. And now I'm wondering about 386 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: that long decade that she spent on her own between 387 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: when her husband and all of her sons left for 388 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: the United States in nineteen sixteen when she was killed. 389 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: During that time period, about a million people left sicily, 390 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: most of the men, and they left behind a lot 391 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: of women, just like Lorenza. Way, think about that. 392 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 7: So your dude leave, But first of all, I think 393 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 7: about the pape of life. 394 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 3: Then going to Plaimo was crazy. 395 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 7: Yes, let a little cross the seat, so your man goes. 396 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 6: It could be months, if not years, before you get 397 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 6: a fucking letter. 398 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: It's might not even being able to read right, right, 399 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: you can't read. The majority of women were illiterate. Yeah, 400 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: they probably didn't get a letter. 401 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 3: There was no phone. There were no phones. 402 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't get a letter for months or even years. 403 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes money would come home, sometimes it wouldn't. For some women, 404 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: the men just disappeared and they had no idea whatever 405 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: happened to them. Some of the men got new entirely 406 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: new families in America and just didn't come back. When 407 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: I first started imagining Lorenza, I pictured her as just 408 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: a wife and a mother. This woman trapped in her house, 409 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: raising her kids, dutifully waiting for her husband to return, 410 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: or she was just waiting for her husband to call 411 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: her to America. 412 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 3: She was constantly in. 413 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: Preparation to move to this new land. And I wish 414 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: that this was not the place that my mind went. 415 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: I really feel that this image has been programmed into 416 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: me somehow. But when I have chatted up the older 417 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: women in town, they start to tell a different story. 418 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: They say that they've heard from their own grandmothers that 419 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: as the men started working further and further from home, 420 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: it totally changed life for women in these small Sicilian 421 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: towns all of a sudden, with the men gone, they 422 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: were learning to read and write and do accounting and 423 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: working outside of the home in brand new ways. 424 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 6: The towns were very much spaces for women, children, and 425 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 6: old people. 426 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: This is Linda Reader. She's a professor of history and 427 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: the chair of Women's and Gender Studies at the University 428 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: of Missouri here in the States. But her research was 429 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: some of the best academic information that I found about 430 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: the daily lives of Sicilian women around the time that 431 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: Lorenza and also the characters in my book were alive. 432 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: Linda was actually researching migration from Sicily when it first 433 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: dawned on her. 434 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 6: They're all men, they're all married. What happened to the women. 435 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if more historians could just 436 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: ask that question, what happened. 437 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 3: To the women? 438 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: What she found is that even before Sicilian men started 439 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: immigrating to the United States and elsewhere in huge numbers, 440 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: towns like Cultabalota were often sort of run by women. 441 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 6: They would leave the town for most of the week, 442 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 6: come back Friday Saturday, and they would live out in 443 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 6: the countryside. 444 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: The men were always working away from home. 445 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 6: So you start to see women, particularly women whose husbands 446 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 6: were migrating. 447 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: Husbands and sons who were sending money back home. 448 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 6: These women had more access to cash. They're buying up houses, 449 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 6: They're investing in certain ways. Within the community. 450 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: Women controlled the real estate. They may have even been 451 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: running shops and operating businesses called Tobaloto was known for 452 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: wool production. So knowing this, just thinking about this and 453 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: staring at Lorenzo's front door. I now know that she 454 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been stuck in her house mixing up a sauce. 455 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: This was an intensely communal life that women were very 456 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: much a part of. People lived in these small, crowded 457 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: villages for a reason. It's what you have to do 458 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: to survive in an isolated town on the top of 459 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: a mountain. But even more so when nearly half the 460 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: population has left for America. So it checks out that 461 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: Lorenza would have been very much in charge of the 462 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: family's land and all of their interests back home in Sicily. 463 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: But also what was she doing with her husband gone? 464 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: And it does make me think a little bit about 465 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: Ciro's theory of something going on with Nicolo Martino. I 466 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: will say, once I saw that Antonino Piazza was gone 467 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: for so long before Lorenzo was killed, I did think 468 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: it was odd. I thought it was strange that Lorenza 469 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: stayed there for so many years before following her husband 470 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: and sons to America. I asked Linda read her about it, 471 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: and she said it was common and frankly, a lot 472 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: of times the men got very comfortable in America and 473 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: they wanted to stay, but the women were like mm mmm, no, no, 474 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: I am not having that. 475 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 6: So there's a lot of back and forth, much more 476 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 6: than we expected, until at some point somebody's saying, no, 477 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 6: I want to settle in the United States. I want 478 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 6: to stay here. That often created points of conflict. 479 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: Linda even found this trove of letters that Sicilian women 480 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: wrote to their local governments saying their husbands had sent 481 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: them tickets to come to America and they wanted the 482 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: state to officially intervene and tell their husbands no thanks. 483 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 6: Saying, look, I don't want to go to America. He 484 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 6: sent me tickets. I don't want to go. This wasn't 485 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 6: the deal, and just tell him I'm not coming. 486 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: The deal was that you go, you make money. 487 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 6: I don't want to join it, and you come back, 488 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 6: and you come back and we'll buy land here. A 489 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 6: lot of men did come back. 490 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: Within five years. Between thirty and fifty percent of this 491 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: generation of immigrants did return home to Italy, and they 492 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: were known as the RETERNATEI but not our family. It 493 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: has always been a core part of this story. All 494 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: of the Piazzas intended to leave eventually, including Lorenza, if 495 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: only she hadn't been killed. How common was it for 496 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: a woman to be violently killed? 497 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 6: I mean, there are certainly early stories in the history 498 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 6: of the mafia. There's a famous case in Palatimo of 499 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 6: a woman who wouldn't take fraudulent banknotes from the local 500 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 6: mafia guide, and they used all sorts of methods of 501 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 6: intimidation ended up killing her daughter and then killing her. 502 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 6: So I don't think it's off the table, but it's. 503 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: Not very common, Linda said, sure, it could have been 504 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: a land deal gone wrong, but she had a theory 505 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: of her own. 506 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 6: When you first told me about her death, I immediately 507 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 6: thought some form of an honor killing. Those were the 508 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 6: more prevalent killings and homicides you see. 509 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: And what exactly is an honor killing. 510 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 6: It's an extension of domestic violence in many ways, ways 511 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 6: in which a family is trying to respond to a 512 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 6: perceived attack on the family's respectability, their name, their reputation 513 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 6: by disciplining women's body and women's sexualities. 514 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: What if Chiro is right, What if Lorenzo was having 515 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: an affair with Nicolo Martino or with someone else? Could 516 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: she have been killed by one of the men in 517 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: our own family, even Antonino, her husband. 518 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 6: That's where you see the more violence on women, right 519 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 6: and you know. 520 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 3: We thought about that too when we discovered that she 521 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 3: was killed alongside another man. Could this have been her husband? 522 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 3: I don't think a lot of my family members are 523 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 3: going to like this theory. We have not found any 524 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: records of him coming back, nor was she pregnant again after. 525 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 6: He left, so he may never have returned. 526 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: We don't think that he returned. As of right now. 527 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: We don't have any evidence that Antonino went back to 528 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: Sicily after he left for America. We have one idea 529 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: that maybe maybe their son Joseph also known as Jesseppe, 530 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: went back to avenge his mother's death, but that would 531 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: have been well after Lorenzo was killed, and anyway, we 532 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: still don't know if that really happened. More on that later, 533 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: I promise, But there were a lot of sons and 534 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: there were a lot of family members still left in Sicily. 535 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: Antonino wouldn't have had to kill Lorenzo himself for this 536 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: to be a crime within the family if it weren't 537 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: honor killing. He didn't do it, but could a husband 538 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: have someone else do that for him? 539 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 6: There could be somebody else in the family who would 540 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 6: do it. But you know, the proxy doesn't make a 541 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 6: lot of sense here either. 542 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: Why not? 543 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 6: You know, I do think that experience of migration transforms 544 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 6: ideas of what it means to be a man and 545 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 6: what it means to be a woman. And I'm not 546 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 6: sure that he would mobilize those resources and use that 547 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 6: social and cultural capital to respond if in fact he's 548 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 6: never coming back to that world. 549 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: Look, I am no Sicilian witch, or maybe i am, 550 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: but I've got this gut feeling now that Lorenza never 551 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: planned to leave Sicily, that she was never meant to 552 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: join Antonino in the United States, as my family has 553 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: always believed. Maybe she did expect her husband to come 554 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: home one day, But from everything I can tell, he 555 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: was attempting to build a life in America, as were 556 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: their sons, and I think maybe she was building her 557 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: own life in Sicily. So maybe Linda's right. Maybe there 558 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: are some hallmarks of an honor killing. There's another man, 559 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: there's an avenging son. But in other ways it doesn't 560 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: totally make sense. Lorenzo was fifty four, Nicolo Martino was 561 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: in his seventies. What would the family be defending in 562 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: the old world if they've already established themselves in the 563 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: new one. But it is intriguing, and yeah, this is 564 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: definitely a new potential motive. I sadly have to hop 565 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: because I have to take care of my own children, 566 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: because a woman and a mother's work has never finished. 567 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 3: Linda never never. 568 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: Apparently the smoke is really really bad in Plermo. 569 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, can I see, I'll show you. 570 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: Two weeks into our trip to Sicily, just as my 571 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: image of Lorenzo was really coming into focus, we hit 572 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: major roadblock. The island was on fire. 573 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 7: Moment, the whole place. 574 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: Guy fucking burned to the ground. Jesus Christ, that's the 575 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: towns we went through. 576 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 3: Those are the towns wait, yea. 577 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: The little towns that we'd just driven through. The hotels 578 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: that we stayed in, many of them were now surrounded 579 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: by flames. Smoke was in the air everywhere, and we 580 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: had planned to talk to more people, to visit more archives, 581 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: but it just didn't feel safe or smart. 582 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 3: Just sending messages to Chiero and everyone making sure they're okay. 583 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: Once again, it does feel a little bit like divine 584 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: intervention is stopping our family from figuring out exactly what 585 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: happened to Lorenza. I was disappointed that we had to leave, 586 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: that we had to cancel so many of our interviews, 587 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: but we had a lot of new leads, including remember 588 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: how I said I didn't think anyone from the family 589 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: moved back to Cappelotta. Yeah, it turns out that someone did. 590 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 7: For to get to the point where you show up 591 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 7: at your brother's home with a pistol, tells me that 592 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 7: this is a feud that's been going on for a while. 593 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: That's coming up on The Sicilian Inheritance. The Sicilian Inheritance 594 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The 595 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: series is produced by Jen Kenney, Kate Osborne, Dara Potts 596 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: and me Joe Piazza, with key help from Laura Lee 597 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: Watson of Digging Up Your Roots in the Boot and 598 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: Chiro Grillow of Sicily Roots. Many thanks to Julia Paraviccini 599 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: and the Ancestry dot com research department. You can get 600 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: your copy of The Sicilian Inheritance the novel right now 601 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: at Truly anywhere that you get your books, anywhere you 602 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: get your books. It's got the same name as the podcast, 603 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: but with my Food, Wine and sucks. Also do not 604 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: forget to get a taste of Sicily in the form 605 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: of delicious Sicilian olive oil at Cardena's tap room. Make 606 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: sure to check out our show notes for a link 607 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: to buy it, or if you find yourself in Philly 608 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: just stop by. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, mangosh 609 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: Heitikador Costas Linos, and Oz Wolloshan. From iHeart, executive producers 610 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: are Katrina Norvelle and Nikki Etour. We also want to 611 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: thank will Pearson, Connell Byrne, Bob Pittman, and John Mary 612 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: Napolis