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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. So we're going

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Speaker 2: into the vault for an older episode of Stuff to

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Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind. This one originally published August twentieth, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four, and it's part one of our series about

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Speaker 2: the ore powered galleys and warships of the ancient Mediterranean.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: Again today on Stuff to Blow your Mind, we are

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Speaker 2: going to be kicking off a series looking at paddles

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Speaker 2: and oars, rowing and paddling the boats of the ancient world. Rob,

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Speaker 2: So you pick this topic out. What got you thinking

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Speaker 2: about paddles and ores?

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Speaker 1: Well, I was kind of hungry for another dip into

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Speaker 1: the invention style episode that we frequently come back to.

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Speaker 1: You know, something that talks about generally or as often

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Speaker 1: as the case, you know, some sort of ancient technology

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Speaker 1: and how it comes about and what leads to these innovations.

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Speaker 1: You know, what is the environment that they evolve in

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Speaker 1: and so forth. And I started looking around at some

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Speaker 1: of my usual primary sources, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this looks like the perfect thing to get into, like

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Speaker 1: getting into the history of these ancient Mediterranean or powered boats.

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Speaker 1: In many cases we're dealing with warships, but this would

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Speaker 1: have also applied to varying degrees to various trade vessels

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Speaker 1: as well. And it's one of those topics when you

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Speaker 1: really get into it, like all these different disciplines converge

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Speaker 1: because there's archaeology, modern maritime archaeology, there is there's of

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Speaker 1: course literary history. There are also all these enduring mysteries

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Speaker 1: and disagreements throughout the ages about how to interpret what

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Speaker 1: has been passed down concerning these vessels.

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Speaker 2: Now, with these ancient warships that were powered by many rowers,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we can talk as we go on

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Speaker 2: about the different designs there, the different numbers of levels

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Speaker 2: of rowers and things like that. You is part of

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Speaker 2: the idea there that you would have these even in

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Speaker 2: the case where it's a boat that could move under

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Speaker 2: sail power in some cases, but you would transition to

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Speaker 2: ore power to increase like maneuverability and speed during a battle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is a big part of it. Like

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Speaker 1: you could you could certainly get by with just sails,

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Speaker 1: but having the ores on hand meant that you could

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Speaker 1: absolutely have the power at your disposal when you needed it,

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Speaker 1: especially if you're dealing with an environment where the winds

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Speaker 1: might not cooperate with you. You can't necessarily count on

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Speaker 1: the winds to be there for that push to the

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Speaker 1: shore if you're doing some sort of like a marine landing,

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Speaker 1: or you can't depend on the wind to help you

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Speaker 1: outrun or chase down another vessel. But if you have

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Speaker 1: your oars, well, then you're only limited by the amount

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Speaker 1: of skilled oarsmanship on board your vessel. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's an important That's one of the things that attracted

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Speaker 1: me to this too, because I feel like, speaking for myself,

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Speaker 1: I felt like growing up, I pretty much had a

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Speaker 1: Scooby Doo level understanding of what it meant to have

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Speaker 1: or power on a vessel. You know, sort of like

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Speaker 1: thinking about maybe not Scooby Doom in particular, but various

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Speaker 1: fictions in which people were captured by you know, some

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Speaker 1: sort of nefarious enemy thrown into the hold of the

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Speaker 1: ship where they have to pull the oars. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea here is like, oh, and we can easily,

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Speaker 1: you know, imagine ourselves in that scenario, like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to pull an oar. I've never done

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Speaker 1: this before, but now someone's going to whip me if

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 2: Why was that Scooby Doo? Does this happen in Scooby Doo?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it happened in Scooby Do, but

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Speaker 1: it may have happened in something consumed in that general area.

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Speaker 1: You know, it probably happened on some of these old cartoons.

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Speaker 2: Or Scooby and Shaggy would not be good at rowing, But.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you're imagining was Scooby Doo and Shaggy thrown into

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Speaker 1: the into a ship and made to pull an oar.

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Speaker 1: Like that's kind of like where my head used to

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Speaker 1: be concerning this. But when you get into it, especially

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world, you're not dealing with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of like forced amateur oarsmen down there. You're dealing with

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Speaker 1: trained orsmen, and it also non specialized dorsemen, Like it

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Speaker 1: might be very good, but this is not the only

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Speaker 1: thing they're going to be called on to do. So

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Speaker 1: you know. Suffice to say, I feel like it's a

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Speaker 1: topic where I had a lot of long standing bits

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Speaker 1: of misinformation in my head, you know, and just assumptions

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Speaker 1: about what this world consisted of. And when you get

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Speaker 1: into the details, when you get into what is known

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Speaker 1: and even what was written about in the ancient world,

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Speaker 1: it's a far more complex scenario. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I like it when we can learn everything we assumed

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Speaker 2: was wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I thought an interesting place to kick this

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Speaker 1: off would be to sort of jump ahead and talk

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Speaker 1: about one of the more extreme and unsustainable examples of

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Speaker 1: the technology, sort of like looking at the spruce goose

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Speaker 1: before we talk about airplanes in general.

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Speaker 2: Well, look at the lineage by seeing what's one of

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Speaker 2: the most ridiculous places that can go right.

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Speaker 1: And the place to start is, by all accounts, the

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Speaker 1: Tessaranka terrace, which means forty road or simply forty. This

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Speaker 1: was an allegedly massive catamaran galley warship, an extreme example

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Speaker 1: of a polyrem or mini ORed vessel, and this was

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Speaker 1: like you can look up pictures of what this may

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Speaker 1: have looked like. There's a lot of guesswork and analysis

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Speaker 1: involved here, but think about like an ancient World Air

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Speaker 1: draft carrier with oars and you're kind of in the

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Speaker 1: right zone for this.

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Speaker 2: The version I'm looking at has like more oars than

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Speaker 2: you can count sticking out all the sides of it,

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Speaker 2: and it's got what looks like a giant gramophone horn

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Speaker 2: on it. I don't know what that's for.

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Speaker 1: So this would have been the pride and joy of

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Speaker 1: the ruler Ptolemy, the fourth Philopater. That means lover of

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Speaker 1: his father, which I don't know. It sounds like if

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Speaker 1: that's your title it now I'm questioning your love for

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Speaker 1: your father because you're making such a big deal out

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Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, but anyway, he was the fourth Ptolemaic

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Speaker 1: pharaoh of Egypt. A little background. I think we've touched

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Speaker 1: on the Ptolemys and the show before, but the rule

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Speaker 1: of the Ptolemies began in three h five BCE after

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Speaker 1: the collapse of the Macedonian rule established by Alexander the Great.

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Speaker 1: When Alexander's expansive empire collapsed, his followers ended up competing

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Speaker 1: with each other for the fragmented remains of that empire,

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Speaker 1: and his general and Ptolemy the First Solder or Ptolemy

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Speaker 1: the Savior, claimed the Egyptian territory there were the Egyptian

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Speaker 1: centered territory and established the Ptolemaic kingdom there. So the

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Speaker 1: Ptolemies would rule over Egypt as essentially a Helldenistic state

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Speaker 1: for three centuries until the death of Cleopatra. That's when

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Speaker 1: the Roman Empire conquered Egypt in thirty BCE. Historians often

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Speaker 1: point to Ptolemaic Egypt as the longest and final Egyptian dynasty.

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Speaker 1: During their rule, they faced constant threats. Like at the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, there were the wars of the Diodecai. These

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Speaker 1: were the successors of Alexander, again fighting for the scraps

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Speaker 1: of that empire. There were multiple wars with the Seleucid

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Speaker 1: Empire and the Kushite Empire to the south. There were

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Speaker 1: rebellions in southern Egypt, and then, of course, finally the

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire which conquered them. Now coming to Ptolemy, the

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Speaker 1: fourth lover of his father, who he would have ruled

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Speaker 1: two twenty one through two four BCE, generally held up

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Speaker 1: as part of the dynasty's decline. Despite some successes in

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Speaker 1: the Fourth Syrian War, it was a period of rebellion

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Speaker 1: in the south of Egypt, and he was often criticized

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Speaker 1: as being far more concerned with luxury, ceremony and the

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Speaker 1: trappings of empire rather than the severe work required to

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Speaker 1: prolong its era. But if nothing else, he by all accounts,

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Speaker 1: had a massive boat, and that is where the Tesla

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Speaker 1: Ranca Terris comes into play.

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Speaker 2: Now, if he had a reputation for being being more

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Speaker 2: concerned with luxury and ceremony than with practicality, does the

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Speaker 2: boat follow this design.

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Speaker 1: It seems like most of the sources I've looked at

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Speaker 1: argue that this is the case, that this was. I've

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Speaker 1: seen some quibbles and we'll get into some of this,

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Speaker 1: but by and large, a lot of people are like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is exactly the sort of vessel that someone more

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Speaker 1: concerned with appearances and pomp would would want constructed. A

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Speaker 1: massive vessel that is maybe not actually an operational war platform,

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Speaker 1: but just a way to show off how awesome you

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Speaker 1: are and could potentially be in battle as long as

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Speaker 1: you don't think too hard about how the ship's going

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Speaker 1: to get around.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's hear about it all right.

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Speaker 1: So I mentioned it has a lot of ores, depending

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Speaker 1: on how you try and reconstruct it on paper, in

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Speaker 1: your head. You might have had more than five rows

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Speaker 1: of oars. We'll get into the details of that, probably

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Speaker 1: more in the next episode, but seven naval rams and

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Speaker 1: flat on top an enormous aircraft carrier style deck, and

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Speaker 1: this would have been used to carry or at least

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Speaker 1: show off troops and or siege equipment. Now, to be clear,

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Speaker 1: we have no physical evidence of the Tessa Raka teris.

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Speaker 1: We have archaeological evidence of some very old boats and

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Speaker 1: ships from around the world, and thanks to twentieth and

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Speaker 1: twenty first century maritime archaeology and all of its technological innovations,

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Speaker 1: we actually know more than ever before. I noticed that

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Speaker 1: Michael Levinson had an article in The New York Times

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Speaker 1: from earlier this year making the point that it's a

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Speaker 1: golden age for shipwreck discoveries. We're just able to see

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Speaker 1: what's down there, detect things, and then analyze them in

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Speaker 1: ways that we couldn't even do last century, and last

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Speaker 1: century was a pivotal time for advancing our understanding of

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Speaker 1: what came before as well. It's interesting to think about because,

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Speaker 1: on one hand, an operational wooden ship, as I've seen pointed out,

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Speaker 1: is just in a perpetual state of decay. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's why we have the concept of the ship of theseus.

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Speaker 1: It's constantly rotting. Essentially, it wears, it breaks, it requires

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Speaker 1: upkeep and replacement, and if left to the ravages of time,

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Speaker 1: if conditions are not right, the whole thing is lost.

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Speaker 1: For instance, one of the main culprits, it's often pointed out,

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Speaker 1: is the shipworm. As a Simil Pulluck, a nautical archaeologist

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Speaker 1: at Texas A and M University in College Station pointed out,

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Speaker 1: and this is who was cited a that GEO article

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Speaker 1: from twenty fourteen titled five shipwrecks Lost to Time that

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Speaker 1: archaeologist would love to get their hands on by Jane J. Lee,

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Speaker 1: which which does get into some ships from this time period.

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Speaker 1: But basically the idea is that this is this worm

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Speaker 1: is a wood burrowing mollusk. We may have talked about

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Speaker 1: it on the show. Before they can break down a

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Speaker 1: submerged wooden vessel apparently in as little as five years.

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Speaker 1: But the main way that ancient ships survive are by

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Speaker 1: winding up buried under sediment or buried under their own cargo,

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Speaker 1: such as you know, a bunch of ceramic andphora. You know,

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Speaker 1: basically earthenware containers that end up serving as man made

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Speaker 1: sediment to preserve the portion of the hall underneath it.

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Speaker 1: If you've watched any documentaries about, you know, ancient Mediterranean shipwrecks,

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Speaker 1: you've probably seen footage like this where it looks like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a bunch of urns on the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the ocean, and that's essentially what it is. But

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Speaker 1: then what is underneath those urns? What else is preserved?

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Speaker 1: And sometimes we can learn a lot from what remains beneath,

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Speaker 1: and this is why harbors, rather than open ocean, are

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Speaker 1: often considered better hiding places for some of these ancient wrecks.

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Speaker 1: And there also may be factors related to just how

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Speaker 1: many of these ships operated and so forth and how

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Speaker 1: they operated. But yeah, it's like it's one of these

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Speaker 1: cases where, yeah, we have one particular giant vessel that

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Speaker 1: one's lost to history. But in terms of more common

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Speaker 1: vessels of this type, yeah, we do have examples of

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Speaker 1: shipwrecks we've been able to find and learn from, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially in recent years. But as with the fossil record,

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Speaker 1: you know, depending on what we have to depend on,

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Speaker 1: has various holes in it. You know, we have physical

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Speaker 1: evidence of ships, and then we also have the written

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Speaker 1: word to turn to. But as Christopher E. Choffen discusses

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Speaker 1: in the Tessaranka Terras reconsidered this is this was a

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one through nineteen ninety three of a publication

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Speaker 1: of Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies. Technical information

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Speaker 1: in these ancient texts is uncommon. So it's you'll have

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Speaker 1: mentions of ships, but you know, how many times do

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Speaker 1: they stop to really roll out the details and the

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Speaker 1: stats for a given vessel. But I guess the thing

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Speaker 1: about the about a ship this big is that there

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Speaker 1: would be some descriptions, some stats out there. Since it

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Speaker 1: is so novel. You know, it's kind of like if

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Speaker 1: you look in like biblical texts, are you going to

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Speaker 1: have this, you know, actual length and with descriptions for

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Speaker 1: a cart Now probably not everyone knows what a card

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Speaker 1: is the arc of the covenant, well, and then you've

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Speaker 1: got might get some details.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, concerning the Tessaranka Terris, there are two main sources

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Speaker 1: that are typically cited. One is a second century CE

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Speaker 1: Greek source, the writings of Athenaeus of Necratis. This is

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Speaker 1: more than two hundred year after the reign of Ptolemy.

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Speaker 1: The fourth Chaffin cites this one in his work, and

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Speaker 1: among the details included are the following two hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty cubits in length, which to understand this would be

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Speaker 1: like four hundred and twenty feet or one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty meters a breadth of thirty eight cubits or fifty

250
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Speaker 1: seven feet seventeen meters. I'm not sure if this is

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Speaker 1: per catamaran hole seven naval rams. As we discussed fine proportions,

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Speaker 1: breathtaking decorations. This is all subjective. And then it's said

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Speaker 1: to have required four thousand oarsmen and four hundred sailors

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Speaker 1: and officers. That alone is incredible, if not unbelievable. And

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Speaker 1: if it's said to carry two eight hundred and fifty.

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Speaker 2: Marines, okay, And the marines would refer to like armed

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Speaker 2: soldiers who were not involved in the piloting or powering

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Speaker 2: of the vessel, so they could, you know, if you

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Speaker 2: made contact with another ship at sea or made a landing,

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Speaker 2: they could disembark or board another vessel to attack.

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Speaker 1: Yet pretty much now in terms of whether they were

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Speaker 1: pulling the oars or not as we'll get into maybe so,

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Speaker 1: But then you look at these stats, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: four thousand oarsmen. Even if every single marine was doing

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Speaker 1: double duty and also pulling the oars, you still would

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Speaker 1: and also throwing the four hundred sailors and officers, You're

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Speaker 1: still short by a lot. You still need hundreds and

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Speaker 1: hundreds of additional oarsmen to power this thing.

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Speaker 2: So do experts have an opinion of like whether this

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Speaker 2: could be possible, whether this possibly existed as described, or

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Speaker 2: what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: I mean it basically the big discussion comes down to

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Speaker 1: whether it was for show or operational, you know, like okay,

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Speaker 1: because another detail that is mentioned in this text is

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Speaker 1: that it required this big specialized launching system, so it

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Speaker 1: was like so huge that it required something new to

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Speaker 1: be built in order to even go up to it

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Speaker 1: and use it to any limited degree in the water.

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Speaker 1: But even still ancient authors were still skeptical about it

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Speaker 1: as well, like, for instance, another the other major description

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00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 1: is a lot shorter, and it comes from Plutarch. He

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Speaker 1: lived forty six through one nineteen CE, and he repeats

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Speaker 1: some of the exact same stats, but also adds that

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Speaker 1: the ship was just for show and could only be

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Speaker 1: moved with great difficulty and danger. So he comments that

286
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Speaker 1: it was not at all a practical warship, but a spectacle,

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Speaker 1: certainly in keeping with the reputation of Ptolemy the Fourth

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Speaker 1: that has passed down through the centuries. Okay, now, I

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Speaker 1: guess you could get into a more nuanced discussion about

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Speaker 1: to what extent the spectacle is as useful or more

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Speaker 1: useful than a functional vessel. I mean, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: on the table. And then we have to also take

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Speaker 1: into account the reputation of ancient rulers as becomes kind

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Speaker 1: of submitted in the in the historical record, So you know,

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00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of back and forth to

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Speaker 1: have there. But it sounds like there's a strong case

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Speaker 1: to be made that this was not a very functional warship,

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Speaker 1: that it was just about showing off your military mind.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's an interesting place to set out

300
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Speaker 1: on our journey here. You know, looking at the Testaranka

301
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Speaker 1: Terras is something that exists as the most outrageous and

302
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Speaker 1: possibly grotesquely unrealistic example of an evolution of design in

303
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: the ancient world. And I think this is especially interesting

304
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,359
Speaker 1: in light of how absolutely on point the engineering of

305
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,639
Speaker 1: the try Rem is considered to have been. I'm going

306
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Speaker 1: to share a quote from Chaffin on this that I

307
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: referenced earlier to be clear, this is not He's not

308
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 1: talking about the Testaranka terras here, he's talking about the

309
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,919
Speaker 1: more common and functional try Rem or driven vessel. He writes,

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Speaker 1: it was a warship design at the very limits of

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Speaker 1: available technology, incapable of further development, expensive to maintain, costly

312
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Speaker 1: and trained manpower, and in the long run, too costly

313
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Speaker 1: for the resources of the city state. So I think

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Speaker 1: it seems reasonable to think of these almost as like

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Speaker 1: jet fighters in the modern area, you know, in terms

316
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Speaker 1: of their upkeep and the technology involved, and just how

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00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 1: expensive they are to maintain and use. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to come back around to these, We're going to come

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Speaker 1: back around to the Tsaronka Teris, We're going to come

320
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Speaker 1: back around to the Trireme and they sort of pinnacle

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Speaker 1: of this technology as it develops in the ancient world.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into that, we need to talk

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Speaker 1: more basically about wars and paddles and other related technologies

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Speaker 1: that are the basis for all of this. So I

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Speaker 1: guess to kick off here just a discussion of some

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Speaker 1: of the basic terminology that is used here. I was

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Speaker 1: looking at the chapter in the seventy Great Inventions of

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Speaker 1: the Ancient World by Brian M. Fagan, and the chapter

329
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Speaker 1: that deals One of the chapters that deals with boats

330
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Speaker 1: has Sean mcgrail on there as the co author who

331
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Speaker 1: wrote the book Boats of the World. It covers the

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Speaker 1: basics of paddles, poles, and ores. So poling involves the

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Speaker 1: use of a long pole or setting pole, sometimes forked

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Speaker 1: at the end, to push a small craft along by

335
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Speaker 1: pushing it against the bottom of a body of water.

336
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Speaker 1: And of note, this is a technology that may leave

337
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Speaker 1: no trace on the vessel itself, like it's you know,

338
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Speaker 1: you can imagine it. You've probably seen some version of this,

339
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Speaker 1: you know, in the world around you, because it is

340
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Speaker 1: still used to this day. You know, it's just somebody

341
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Speaker 1: polling along.

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Speaker 2: Because they're especially useful in very shallow bodies of water

343
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Speaker 2: and shallow channels. You might often see them paired with

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Speaker 2: a kind of boat called a punt, which is a

345
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 2: more square shaped, flat bottomed boat that goes less deeply

346
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Speaker 2: into the water. So yeah, you'll see people out on

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Speaker 2: you know, shallow reams and streams and rivers, punting out

348
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Speaker 2: on a kind of flat bottom boat, pushing along the

349
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Speaker 2: bottom with a pole.

350
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you see. You see these out in the

351
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Speaker 1: world for sure. And then of course there are paddles.

352
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Speaker 1: Use of a paddle generally doesn't leave any evidence on

353
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Speaker 1: the craft itself either, And then you have ores. Ores

354
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Speaker 1: require a pivot and possibly other specialized fittings, something that

355
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 1: often will leave evidence on a vessel, though, you know,

356
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Speaker 1: should enough of that vessel survive and I guess, depending

357
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: on the materials used, you could also have like some

358
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Speaker 1: of these fittings alone survive.

359
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yes, to pick up on that. This this

360
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 2: is a distinction that I did not fully have in

361
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Speaker 2: my mind before researching for this episode. But there is

362
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Speaker 2: a different between a paddle and an ore. I would

363
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: have previously used these words interchangeably. But a paddle is

364
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: a bladed beam that is held freely in the hands.

365
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 2: And you might have a blade just on one end

366
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Speaker 2: you paddle on one side of the boat, or you

367
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: might have a double sided paddle with two different blades,

368
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: and you can alternate which side, like you might use

369
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: in a kayak or something. So the paddle is held

370
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 2: freely in the hands, while an ore is mounted to

371
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: the boat in some way through a lock or a pin,

372
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 2: sometimes called an ore lock, though that is a false

373
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: cognate with the name or lock has in count or lock.

374
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 2: It is filled differently though oar lock Okay. And as

375
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 2: with the different names of these devices, the verb is

376
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: different as well. So pushing through the water with a

377
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Speaker 2: paddle is called paddling. Pushing through the water with an

378
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 2: ore is called rowing, And that's what rowing is. Now.

379
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Speaker 2: If you have no experience with canoes or rowboats yourself,

380
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: you might not think think of this, But there's a

381
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 2: difference in the orientation of the operator with these two

382
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 2: different ways of pushing through the water with bladed sticks.

383
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: A person operating a free hand paddle is usually facing

384
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 2: the same direction they're traveling, while a person rowing with

385
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: a locked or is usually facing away from their direction

386
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: of travel. So a canoe you're looking ahead, a rowboat

387
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 2: you're looking behind.

388
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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting that I've done both of these before,

389
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: only a little bit of rowboat usage, mostly like canoe

390
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: stuff patenting. But my mind instantly goes to how these

391
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: translate differently in cinematic usage. You know, like if you

392
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: have someone in a row boat and you want their face,

393
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: you want their emotions, facial expression in the picture, then

394
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: you are focusing, you're looking at the rear of the vessel,

395
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: and you're seeing them move away from the camera, where

396
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: As if you're going you want the same effect more

397
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: or less with someone in a canoe, where you're going

398
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: to have to have them coming towards the camera. So

399
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, you could probably get into a into

400
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: a into a big, you know, cinematic discussion about how

401
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: the different technologies transfer differently to the screen and what

402
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: they say about the characters and their journeys.

403
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, you know. For some reason, I tend

404
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: to think of when you have a shot of somebody

405
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: powering a rowboat with oars in oarlocks, so they're facing

406
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: towards the stern of the boat. They're usually talking to somebody,

407
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: aren't they Usually there's somebody sitting facing forward opposite them,

408
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: sitting behind them, talking to them, and it seems.

409
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: Like that, yeah, or they're like a lonely individual, like

410
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: rowing away from the shore where our point of view is,

411
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: and it seems to like, you know, drive home a

412
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: sort of like sort of a negative connotation, like they

413
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: are leaving us or they're going off into loneliness or something,

414
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: Whereas again, if someone's in the canoe, they're often moving

415
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: towards us. So I don't know, I guess there are

416
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: ways of sorting that out in our hands.

417
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 2: Rowing and paddling is like more interesting the more I

418
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: think about it. It reveals more kind of unappreciated physical

419
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: forces in play that I don't know are just invisible

420
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: to you while you're doing it. But one of the

421
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: other things I was thinking about that makes rowing a

422
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: powerful way of moving an object is the idea that

423
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: there is greater resistance to a paddle blade moving through

424
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: water than there is to a paddle blade moving through air. Right, So, like,

425
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: so you have the ability at the surface of the

426
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 2: water to dip the ore in for a power stroke,

427
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: and there's greater resistance there, which allows you to have

428
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: more force pushing the boat forward, and then you can

429
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: lift the ore up out of the water to move

430
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: it back into place for another power stroke. But while

431
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: it's moving through the air to go back for the

432
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: next stroke, the return stroke is not really offsetting your

433
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: movement very much because the ore moves very easily through

434
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: the air, and in some cases you can even see

435
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: like practiced throwers tilting the blade so that it's like

436
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: sharp edge going through the air instead of flat edge

437
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: going through the air. I guess, to get even less

438
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 2: air resistance while they're moving it back.

439
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: This makes me think of various illustrations of old illustrations

440
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: of possible submarines, and occasionally you would see ores on them. Now,

441
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: I guess, without getting into ancient submarine designs, I guess

442
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: sometimes these were depicted as ways that a submarine would

443
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: move along as a traditional boat, and not how they

444
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: would operate beneath the waters. But if you were to

445
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: I guess you could operate ores beneath the waters, probably

446
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: having to turn the blade so that it could move

447
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: more easily back up to a starting position, but not

448
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: as easily as you'd be able to do this by

449
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: having the blade of the ore dip in and out

450
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: of the water.

451
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, So I think you could still move

452
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: by a rowing motion under the water, And in fact,

453
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: you can think of the way some like a fish's

454
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: pectoral fins can kind of you know, move it around

455
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: a little bit with a sort of rowing like motion

456
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: in the water. But yeah, I think by all accounts

457
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: ores would be much less efficient if you were only

458
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 2: able to move them under the water. You could probably

459
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: still get some movement out of them, like you said

460
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: by Yeah, like by orienting the blades differently or going

461
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: flat or going flat when it's time to push, and

462
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: then for the return stroke laying them laying them sharp

463
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: side forward. Maybe also by this is a good question.

464
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this would work. Maybe also by

465
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: altering the speed of movement through the water, like with

466
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: a fast power stroke and then a very slow return stroke.

467
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

468
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: Sounds reasonable to me, but I don't.

469
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: Know for sure. I haven't tested it out. But yeah,

470
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: so it's like by existing, by floating on top of

471
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: the water, existing at the interface between the greater resistance

472
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: of the water and the lower resistance of the air,

473
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: you can get a greater advantage for the rowing movement

474
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: by having this resistance on the power stroke and then

475
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: relatively easier environment for the return stroke.

476
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, So it's fascinating to break down the basic

477
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: physics behind these different methods, these different machines, But in

478
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: terms of when did they develop, well, this is one

479
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: of those questions. It's ultimately unanswerable, and we have to

480
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: throw in all the general caveats about wooden artifacts and

481
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: how frequently they are lost. At the time of the

482
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: publication of Fagan's book, they cited the earliest known paddles

483
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: dating to seventy five hundred BCE in Germany and Britain.

484
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: They cite thirty two one hundred BCE is the oldest

485
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: evidence of polling from Mesopotamia and date rowing to third

486
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: millennium BCE in Egypt. Also, paddle use was apparently first

487
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: illustrated in the fourth millennium BCE in Egypt.

488
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know for sure when the earliest paddle

489
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: driven boats were used, but we have some inting pieces

490
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: of evidence from apparently fairly early use at least. So

491
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 2: One source I was looking at was a paper published

492
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: in a journal called Past Mobilities by Mark Dunkley called

493
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: Traveling by Water A Chronology of Prehistoric Boat Archaeology slash

494
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: Mobility in England. This was published in twenty sixteen, and

495
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: the author here notes something interesting about the archaeological record

496
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: in Northern Europe at least, which is that the evidence

497
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: of the use of boats and water transport goes back

498
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: to very generally between the tenth and fifth millennium before present,

499
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: which falls within the Mesolithic or Middlestone Age, but that

500
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: the earliest evidence for water transport is generally not the

501
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: physical remains of boats. Rather it is first of all

502
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence and dunky sites. As one example here evidence

503
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: of human settlement on islands such as the Inner Heades

504
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: in Ireland, and in those cases this was by the

505
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: ninth millennium before present, during times when we can be

506
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: fairly confident that they were not connected to the rest

507
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: of Eurasia by land bridges or expanses that were traversible

508
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: in any method other than by boat. So this implies

509
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: there must have been some way for Stone Age settlers

510
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: to cross these large expanses of water. Thus they likely

511
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: had some form of watercraft. Another piece of evidence early

512
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: evidence that Dunkley mentions for water transport in northern Europe

513
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: is paddles dated from the tenth to fifth millennium before present,

514
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: especially found in areas on the edge of the Baltic Sea.

515
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: And one example that I came up when I was

516
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: looking for I was looking for specific examples of earliest

517
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: known paddles in the archaeological record, and one is the

518
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: so called Douvency paddle, which was discovered in the nineteen twenties.

519
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: I've seen two different dates on this, nineteen twenty six,

520
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty four, I'm not sure which is right.

521
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: Discovered in the nineteen twenties at an archaeological site associated

522
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: with Middlestone Age hunter gatherers in northern Germany in a

523
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: place now called du Vinci. And this paddle is made

524
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: of pine wood and based on two different samples, it

525
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: has been dated to between eight and nine thousand years ago.

526
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: Interesting note is it's not huge. It seems that it

527
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: was about fifty two centimeters in length, or you know,

528
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: it's just over twenty inches long. So that's kind of

529
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: interesting to think about. Usually the paddles I think of

530
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: today are longer, but you can still paddle with a

531
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 2: shorter paddle.

532
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And looking at the photograph here of the artifact,

533
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: I mean it very much looks like a paddle. You

534
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: don't have to read into it too much. I mean

535
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: it instantly reads as a paddle to just casual observation.

536
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was trying to understand the human context

537
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: in which this paddle would have been used. I was

538
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: reading about the apparent Mesolithic settlement in this area in

539
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: a source called Spade Paddling on a Mesolithic Lake Remarks

540
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: on pre Boreal and Boreal Sites from du Vinsi, Northern

541
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: Germany by Klaus Bockelmann, published in twenty twelve in some

542
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: kind of collection. It's called a Mindset on Flint Studies

543
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: in honor of Dick Stapert Part three the Mesolithic and Neolithic,

544
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: and so the area of Lake du Vincy, interestingly, was

545
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: likely exploited at this time as a temporary encampment for

546
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: the harvesting of hazel nuts. You a fan of hazel nuts.

547
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: Rob, I don't know. My mind is like goes to

548
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: like hazel nut coffee and I say no, thank you,

549
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: And no, I mean, I guess that what hazel nuts

550
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: think of of various like hazelnut based chocolate spread. So no,

551
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: I'm I guess I'm very much in favor of them

552
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: in other contexts.

553
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: I guess they didn't have chocolate yet. But you're like

554
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: halfway to stone. Wait, is there even chocolate in nutella?

555
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 2: It's like brown and sweet.

556
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: There is chocolate and nutella. Yeah, okay, but nutella, Yeah,

557
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think I've looked into this before

558
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and it's like conceivable that you had some form of

559
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: ancient nut butter based on hazel nuts, but you could

560
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: not have possibly had nutella yet because you didn't have

561
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: access to chocolate from of course South America.

562
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: Right.

563
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: But about these people who were harvesting hazel nuts, Bocalman writes,

564
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: quote short term harvesting camps, sometimes under pine trees and

565
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: marked not by huts but by birch bark mats, were

566
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: set up on muddy ground near open water and on

567
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: islets of the lake. These were optimal locations for spade

568
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: paddling harvesting trips to hazel groves in the vicinity of

569
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: the lake. Hazel Nuts were roasted in hot sand in

570
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: open fireplaces, and the edible kernels were either consumed on

571
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: the spot or were stored for future use. Doesn't that

572
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: just sound cozy? I don't know that sounds nice. So

573
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: Bokeelman says that the evidence indicates that small family based

574
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: groups probably occupied the area for several days at a

575
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: time until the area became more thickly forested. I guess

576
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: there's some changing climate and flora around there, and as

577
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: the forest came in. This reduced the productivity of the

578
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: hazel groves and thus made Lake da Vinci less attractive

579
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: as a gathering location for humans because there were fewer

580
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: hazel nuts to.

581
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: Harvest, fewer nuts, less reason to go there.

582
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: Right, But so this paddle was found. It seemed to

583
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: have been become buried in sediments sometime you know, eight

584
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: to nine thousand years ago, and was preserved until it

585
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: was found in the nineteen twenties. And so somebody was

586
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: paddling obviously, somebody was paddling some kind of water craft,

587
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: some very early watercraft through the water, possibly to harvest

588
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: hazelnuts in this area at the time. And now Interestingly,

589
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: according to Dunkley the author I mentioned earlier, these types

590
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: of paddles appear in the archaeological record before the earliest

591
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: evidence of log boats, leading to the speculation by an

592
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: author named Lanting in nineteen ninety seven that the earliest

593
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: watercraft were not log boats but were skin boats or

594
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: bark boats. So some kind of design that you know,

595
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 2: you might you would build around a frame and make

596
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: roughly waterproof, but would be less likely to be preserved intact.

597
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: And there are some sort of candidate pieces people have found,

598
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: you know, like a piece of work to Antler, where

599
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: somebody has looked at this and said, ah, this might

600
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: have formed part of the skeleton of a skin boat

601
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: or a bark boat or something. But it's hard to

602
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: be sure.

603
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if part of that the idea

604
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: here is that like a skin boat would perhaps be

605
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: easier to carry around. You could if you're having to

606
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: depend on a lifestyle then involves more of a transient

607
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: existence and moving from point A to point B with

608
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: the seasons and so forth. Then the skin boat you

609
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: can carry with you, as opposed to a dugout canoe,

610
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: which might be harder in some context to carry around.

611
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know for sure, but that makes sense to me.

612
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: Now. Much of what we'll be discussing here concerns the

613
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: seagoing vessels of the ancient Mediterranean or the wine dark Sea,

614
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: if you will, to invoke a common translation from a

615
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: Homer's iliad in the Odyssey, But what was it about

616
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: these waters and what were some of the defining elements

617
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: in the development of ancient marine navigation here? Well, one

618
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: of my chief sources on this is The Ancient Mariners

619
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: by Lionel case published nineteen ninety one. He was to

620
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: cease now he was, but he was one of the

621
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: leading scholars on ancient ships and marine operations, and as

622
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: we progress will also try to incorporate added insight garnered

623
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: via twenty later twentieth and twenty first century maritime archaeology.

624
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: But Casin rights that while historians have differed over the

625
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: years on the subject, evidence suggests that Mediterranean sailors kept

626
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: mostly to this inland sea the Mediterranean, and the key

627
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: innovation that enabled them to make use of the sea

628
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: here was wind. So prior to this they depended on

629
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: polls for shallow navigation in various forms of paddling and

630
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: rowing if they needed to go farther out. But wind power,

631
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: cas and rights, was a real game changer. So I

632
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,479
Speaker 1: want to read a quote here. This is from again

633
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: his book The Ancient Mariners nineteen ninety one. For the

634
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: first time they harnessed a force other than their own muscles,

635
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: their servants, or their wives. It was a discovery whose

636
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: effect reached down the ages. From this moment on, the

637
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: easiest and cheapest way of transporting bulky life over distances

638
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: of appreciable length was by water.

639
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: And remain so today by the way.

640
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. And so we get into this discussion though,

641
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: and we'll deal more with this in the next episode.

642
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: But so you're gonna end up with the situation where

643
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: you have wind power at your disposal, which like is

644
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: very clearly awesome and is a real game changer, but

645
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: you also have these technologies of the ore and the paddle.

646
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: But on top of this in the Mediterranean zone in particular,

647
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: coming back to Fagan and one of his other contributing riders,

648
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: Boris Rankoff, who will come back to points out that

649
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: the galley, the sea going vessel power by ores in

650
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: the ancient world, this was for all intents and purposes,

651
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: a Mediterranean phenomenon. Elsewhere at this time, ores were more

652
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: for powering small vessels on rivers and lakes, and you

653
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: often were able to lean more into in to the

654
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: sail the rest of the time. But they point out

655
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: that a lot of the reason that we see this

656
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: emphasis on ores in the ancient Mediterranean it comes down

657
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: to the unreliability of the wind there. Unreliability by the way,

658
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: as it applies to high stakes, often conflict oriented sailing.

659
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: None of this is directly applicable to modern discussions of

660
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: wind energy.

661
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: Ah, but what you're saying there makes sense as to

662
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: why you would often think of a trade ship as

663
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: being one that solely relied on wind power versus a

664
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: warship being more likely to have lots of rowers and oars.

665
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: Right, Because it comes down to a situation where you're

666
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: going to depend on the sails as much as you can.

667
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: But when it comes down to it, when you need

668
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: to close the distance between yourself and an enemy or

669
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: try to greatly increase that distance, you might not have

670
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: the wind on your side. You cannot necessarily count on it.

671
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: But what you can count on are the mechanisms of

672
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: the oars and the muscle power of the people to

673
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: pull those ores. So yeah, if you need that power

674
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: and you can't count on the wind or the wind

675
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: is not cooperating, well, then you bust out the oars

676
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: and you use or power to meet your objective.

677
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: Nice.

678
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: So in the next episode, we'll come back in and

679
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: we'll talk at a greater length about this, and then

680
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: we'll get into some examples of ancient sea battles that

681
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: we know of based on the written record in some illustrations,

682
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: and then we'll get into the technology of these or

683
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: powered vessels that are so famous among the Greeks and

684
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: then later the Romans. I can't wait, all right, so

685
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: ramming speed in the next episode. But for now we're

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00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and close it out. We'll remind you

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00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

688
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

689
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form episode. We've been

690
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: running a lot of monster facts recently, but in the

691
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: weeks ahead, I'm back with more animalia stupendium, some more

692
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: artifacts as we move forward, and then on Fridays we

693
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

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00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

695
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

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00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

697
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

698
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

699
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow

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00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

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00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,479
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:55,600
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