WEBVTT - Invention Playlist: A Motion Picture Mystery 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:09.640 Welcome to Invention, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.440 welcome to Invention. My name is Robert lamp and I'm 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:14.760 Joe McCormick, and we have got a treat for you today. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.840 Last time we told you we would be back this 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.759 time with a murder mystery from the development of the 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.680 motion picture technology history, and today our friend Scott Benjamin 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.360 is joining us on the show. Yeah, that's right. I mean, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.200 people keep turning up dead in history of the Motion 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.480 picture so we thought we'd bring bring in somebody extra 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.919 to help us out with the heavy lifting on this one. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.479 Scott loves murder and he's really great at talking about it, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.640 and uh, I think it's gonna be so much fun. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.400 So let's go right to our talk with Scott. Hey, So, 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.640 if you have been listening to this show for a while, 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:49.880 and if you have made it to the little koda 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:51.760 we tend to do at the end of every episode 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.440 when we when we do our outro music, we you've 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.440 probably heard us mention Scott Benjamin, who helps with research 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.279 on this and we've got such a treat for you. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.760 Scott Benjamin is joining us in studio today. Scott. It 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:07.840 is a pleasure to have you. Thank you for having me. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.399 I really appreciate it. But what should people know about you? Well, 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.520 I've been around here for a long time. I've been 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.959 a podcaster with How Stuff Works originally, uh, for about 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.640 eleven years now, um taken the last couple of years 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.280 off off air, I guess, um as I do research 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.679 and writing for some other shows and true crime stuff. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.000 In fact, I've got an all new true crime podcast 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.760 coming out pretty soon of my own. I can't really 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:35.800 give you too many more details about it right now, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:37.800 but but it's it's on its way. But this is 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.399 one this is key to while we're having you on 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:41.960 here now, because you've been helping us with the invention 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.360 research and then suddenly we ran across a little bit 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.880 of true crime, but potentially true crime, or at least 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:53.200 a mystery that's kind of embedded in the research for 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.040 the invention of the motion picture exactly. Yeah, And I 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.000 thought this was just a little bit too juicy to 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.760 let it go, you know, without without investigating this just 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.640 a little bit more. And uh, to be honest with you, 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.840 it's about a hundred and one nine year old cold 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.040 case now, so I don't think we're gonna you know, 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.400 be you know, solving anything. I don't. I don't think so, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.200 but well we we could try at least we can 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.160 at least, uh, you know, let people know what's happening 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.240 and let them investigate it for themselves and see what 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.440 they think, because there's a few theories about what happened. Alright, 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.040 So here's what here's what's going on. Um. We tend 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:31.560 to credit the invention of the motion picture camera to 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.960 either Edison or the Lumier brothers. And you know, we 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.040 we've got kind of know the history behind that and 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.680 the timing. It's all kind of strange timing. It all 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.760 ties in very very closely. Well, it appears that there 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:49.280 was somebody that was filming motion of filming scenes long 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.280 time prior to that, six seven years prior to that. 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.480 And the earliest film that we have on record anything 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.920 that remains still is from eighteen eighty eight October. As 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:03.760 a matter of fact, UM we know the date because 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.320 of a specific reason. I'll tell you in a minute. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.520 But it's called the Roundhay Garden scene and that was 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.000 shot by um a man named Louis la Prince, and 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.959 Louis la Prince of course French born French born um inventor. 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:17.920 He had a lot of other things that he had 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.040 had developed. A lot of them had to do with cinematography, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.320 the early days of cinematography. Um. He filmed this scene. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.640 It was just it's just like two point one seconds, 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.440 I think, very quick, but it does show motion. And 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.360 he was using you know, a type of film that 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:37.800 was it the early days of film that the um paperbacked, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:39.840 and you know it had a very complex way of 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.920 getting this, you know, down and captured. Now, this one, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.360 the Rounday garden scene, is this before the celluloid film? 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.200 It is just before the celluloid film, right, so that 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.200 was just just after this he had not yet really 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.800 quite kind of experimented with that yet. UM. They know 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.240 the date of this film because specifically, ten days later, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.400 one of the people appeared in the film died, So 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.680 it was like, you know, this is film in October fourteenth, 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.360 but on October his mother in law who was shown 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.840 in the film passed away. So they know specifically that 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.440 it was prior to this date. In in it's it's approvable. 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.080 But by that UM, he did another scene it was 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.440 like this, I think it was a traffic crossing leeds 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.080 Bridge in eight as well, and there's a few other 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.280 early films that have survived, but they're all from right 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.000 in this in this timeframe, the stuff from Edison and 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.039 from the Lumire Brothers are in you know, the well 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:37.160 the early UM eighteen nineties UM. And then the patents 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.480 came later. But that's part of the story that we're 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.640 getting too here. You know, the patents, right, so we 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.800 know that Edison was was very much like a patent 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.680 talk or is that the right word. I mean, I 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.800 think there's a little bit of over demonization of Edison 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.760 that maybe goes on on the internet today. A few 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.719 years back, what was it, There was something like popular 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.839 comic strip where it was basically like Tesla is great, 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.560 Edison sucks, which, which, of course it's it's you know, it's, it's, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.960 it's It's probably a flawed idea to really go all 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.760 in on on either individual as being like you know 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:15.800 this this this angelic figure of invention or this demonic adversary. Yeah. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.960 Maybe actually it over sells Tesla instead of underselling Edison. Well, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:21.920 you know, one of the problems I guess is that Edison. 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.080 Edison had a huge laboratory that he worked in where 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.000 he employed many many inventors, and then of course anything 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.600 that was invented under that umbrella, he would then take 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:31.960 the credit for it. He would say, you know this 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.560 Edison's invention. It's just like any other major corporation does. Now. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.240 The automotive companies do it all the time. You know, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:42.800 people invent features, functions, you know, uh, parts, components, and 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.440 they may get the patent, but uh you know, uh, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.960 I don't know a Ford or GM owns that product, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.279 they own that that that the patent, they get the 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.240 royalties from all that. Well, this is something we've seen 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.640 over and over again just looking at the history, photography, 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.479 and and now the motion picture is that you know, 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.039 we want to think about the inventor ter as this 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.200 uh this you know, this this individual this just out 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.240 there figuring out stuff on their own. And a lot 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.480 of a lot of inventors do fall into that category. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.159 But increasingly there's no closer to get into the modern 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.039 era the more you see this uh industrialization of invention, 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.240 the corporate um use of invention, and so you know, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.200 Edison is just a part of that growing trend. I 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.640 mean already talked about Kodak on the show. Yeah, I 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.960 mean we tend to think of inventors as or we 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.479 like to think of inventors as like like Victor Frankenstein, right, like, 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.400 you know, the independent scientist working on a problem in 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.200 solitude with their own mad genius. But more often it's 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.120 true that inventors need to be part of a system 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.880 that's like providing infrastructure that makes their invention possible at 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.159 the same time that they're working on the invention. And 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.760 the movie camera is a perfect example of this, because 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.359 you couldn't really have the kind of movie cameras that 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.560 even Edison's people came up with, like William Dixon came 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.240 up with, until you had celluloid film and that was 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.600 what you know, other people were working on. What would 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:07.800 Frankenstein have been, like the novel had it been Frankenstein inc. Right, Yeah, 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.120 Edison's likes you know, he gets one of his little 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.000 lab assistants like resurrect the dead, you know, and then 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.000 I'll get the patent. Yeah, this and this stuff is 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:21.560 happening on separate continents as well, so you know, it's 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.920 just one of those times in history where you know 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.720 that they're working on the same thing hundreds if not 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.240 thousands of miles apart. And they don't quite know it yet. 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.080 They don't each each doesn't know what the other one 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.160 is doing right at that moment, unless you know, there's 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.080 some talk within the community of scientists, you know, inventors 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.200 of what they're working on. And uh, and likely they 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.000 would have kept that pretty you know, close to the vest. 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.200 They wouldn't have really said, hay, I'm working on this 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.600 new camera and here's in fact, here's a drawing off 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.320 how it works. Why don't you, Uh, I haven't see 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:53.800 if you can perfect that now it doesn't work that way. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.320 They keep them really really tight, um until of course, 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.120 the you know, the goal is the patent, of course, 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.680 you know, to make their royalties from this invention. And uh, 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:07.240 apparently it looks like La Prince beat Edison to the 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.560 you know, to the mark there on the one. So 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.840 he made all the money, right, No, no, didn't make 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.600 any money on it. In fact, I guess maybe we 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.280 should jump right into the story here at this point 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.880 right now, tell us about the mystery. All right, so 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.240 you know he's he's working on a stuff. He actually 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.160 successfully films these scenes, the round Hey Garden scene, you know, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:31.120 the traffic crossing leeds Bridge, etcetera. And he's got this device. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.480 It's a it's a single lens camera, and this is 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.520 an improvement over a camera that he had just prior 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.480 to that, which was like a sixteen lens camera that 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.120 shot there's actually two banks of eight lenses. I think 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:45.280 that we're that would quickly take images and then you 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.720 could put those together and then show them in rapid 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.200 succession and make, you know, make a moving image out 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.560 of them. This is a single lens camera that would 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.360 record continuous motion. Right, so this is quite different, less 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.560 laborious editing. Yes, yes, exactly right. And again and this 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.959 is the old paperback film at this point, you know, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.000 it's not the not the cleloid at this at this point, um, 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.240 but he has this invention. He's ready to uh find 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.600 he's finally after you know, showing it to friends and 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.160 family and you know, projecting these on on screens and 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.920 his his laboratory or wherever you know, these private showings. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.520 He's ready to go with you to the public with this, 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.319 to to show it publicly and then file for a 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.480 patent in New York City here in the United States. 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.240 And this is all going to happen in I believe 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.520 in October of eighteen ninety, that's when it's supposed to happen. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:36.800 And so prior to that, you know, he's he's still 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.560 kind of touring around and he's got his family trying 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.559 to get things together in New York City, trying to 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.800 get things like a place to do this, you know, 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.040 a proper venue, etcetera, and uh, and they're working on 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:52.200 the they've got it. He's still in France and he 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.559 makes a trip to see his brother, which is expected 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.719 at this point because I guess his his mother had 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.800 just passed just prior to this, so his brother is 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.880 in charge of the estate and kind of breaking up 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.560 the estate and you know the will, I guess, you know, 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:12.440 executing the will. So he makes a trip to Dijon, France, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.600 and he is he spends like three days as his brother, 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.520 and who knows, you know, what's going on there, whether 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.320 it's you know, they're talking about finances or whatever. I'm 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.400 sure there's a lot to discuss at that point. But 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.200 then his brother takes him to the train platform, you know, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.880 the other train um station there in town in Dijon, 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.440 and it's a Dijon to Paris Express trains, so it's 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.800 not gonna stop anywhere. It's gonna go straight from there, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.160 right to Paris, and he's back where he has to be. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:41.600 And then I think he's going to head to England 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.040 and then to New York for this, for this, you know, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.960 the showing this patent awarding or whatever. Um. His brother 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.760 says that he put him on the train on the platform, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.280 and that's the last anybody ever saw of the prince. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.880 He just disappears somewhere in between Dijon and in Paris 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.520 on a NonStop train, on a NonStop train, he completely 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.560 disappears and his luggage disappears. There's no paper record of 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.120 him being on the train really, Um, other than his 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.600 brother's word that he put him on the train, no 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:15.880 one can remember seeing him on the train, Like he 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.200 didn't share a cabin with anybody or anything like that. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.880 And this is a pretty notable guy. And aside front, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.199 the guy was six ft four, so he kind of 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.000 stands out today. Yeah, he would, he's a tall guy. UM. 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.360 I don't know how well how well known he was 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.319 at that point, if anybody could really recognize him, I 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:37.160 don't think that he was. Um, but there's really no 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.800 sighting of him on the train. Itself, and certainly not 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:45.160 in Paris when when it arrived. So obviously that seems 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.719 suspicious like that. People don't normally disappear from trains. But 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.680 uh so, so the question would be, are there any 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:58.800 reasons people had to suspect foul play related to his invention? 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.839 Other and just the fact that he was about to 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.400 debut a hotly contested invention for which people would be 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.280 competing for patents. Well, the timing is extremely convenient for 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.079 anybody else who might be working on this a similar invention. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.400 I mean, so think about who that might be, and 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:16.920 we'll talk about them in just a moment. All of 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.360 this is going down on September sixteenth, eighteen ninety He's 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.480 what forty nine years old at this point. Um, And again, 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.280 just two months later, or even one month later, I 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.800 believe he was supposed to be in New York to 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.079 debut this this and this would have uh clearly, it 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.280 would have revolutionized the industry. I mean, it was something 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.800 that was going to make him a lot of money, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.120 no doubt about it. All Right, so he vanishes, But 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.480 then what's the follow up. Who's looking for him? Well, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.520 of course there's going to be an investigation right, I 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.520 mean his brother. His brother's word is that, you know, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.520 he put him on this train and and now he's 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.040 just suddenly gone into thin air. Right. So Scotland Yard 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.480 is on the case, and you would think Scotland Yard 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.000 would do a pretty good decent, you know, examination of 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.040 what's going on here an investigation. The French police are 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.920 also looking and his family of course is searching for 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.280 him as well, in addition to the other two agencies. 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.480 So um, I don't know who they hired or how 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.360 they went about that, the family themselves, but you've got 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.760 three separate groups looking for him for years. Really, I 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.800 mean they're they're they're trying to track him down, trying 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.280 to figure out exactly what happened, because again, it doesn't 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.120 just happen like this. So um, it's just a real 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.359 strange occurrence. So if he disappeared, could you tell initially 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.640 what the predominant theory was like at the time. Did 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.400 they think he was dead or did they think he 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.439 had run off for what? You know, I don't know 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.839 if there was a predominant theory at that time. I 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.400 think there were just so many different thoughts going through 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.439 everybody's head, like what could have happened to this guy. 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.720 You know, there's a lot a lot of these came 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.679 up later in time. I mean, some of them are like, 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.160 you know, discussed in the nineteen sixties. You know, so 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.160 we're still talking about this guy seventy five plus years 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.640 later with a new theory about what might have happened. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.640 But there are there are three or four main theories 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.360 that have been tossed around for the last in twenty 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.599 nine years now. The more recent theories are going to 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.800 you know, pertain to our our our modern interpretations and 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.600 really why we remember this guy. But but at the time, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.800 I'm thinking it's like, surely they probably approached this in 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.439 the same way one might approach a modern disappearance, and 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.800 they would look too, They would looked to family, they 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.640 would look to you know, connections and major stressors in 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.600 their personal life. I mean, this is a guy who 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.520 recently lost a loved one, may have been involved in something, 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.920 and I mean was definitely involved in some sort of 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.920 a state, uh situation. Sure yeah, um, And uh you know, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:36.960 I guess we can just talk about the very first theory, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.400 which was of course suicide. They thought maybe he had 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.400 jumped from the train on his own somewhere between Dijon 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.280 and Paris. But they searched, you know, track side that 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.320 whole distance, didn't find anything. Didn't find of course, you know, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.520 why would he take his luggage with him? If he 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.800 did that and all that, it would make it even 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.720 more visible if you know there's the body and luggage somewhere, 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.680 you know, in the woods in between or something like that, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.640 or you've jumped off a bridge or right. Okay, So 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.800 I guess I'd have two questions about that. Number One, 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.920 if anybody thinks that suicide, is there any physical evidence 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.720 to indicate that. No physical evidence. That's the thing. All 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.560 of this is just circumstantial evidence because there's nobody there's 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.800 there's no proof of anything. No one saw him, there's 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.000 no witnesses. But the theory, I think that one of 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:25.000 the theories behind the suicide thought is that um, he 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.800 was he was in a significant amount of debt when 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.560 he died. That was the other thing I was gonna ask. Yeah, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.240 so he's you know, he's an eventuorre. He's probably borrowing, 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.160 taking loans some people to get these inventions off the ground, 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.800 these fledgling inventions. And I have seen numbers around and 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.040 you know, these numbers are suspect because they come from 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.520 a lot of different places and you read different numbers everywhere. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.080 But they said that he was somewhere around eighty four 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.240 thousand dollars in debt at the time of his death. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.160 That would have been a lot of money, and it 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.000 still has a lot of money, I guess, but it 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.960 would be so much more in you know what kind 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.720 of an unheard of amount. And um, he I guess 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.000 he didn't really know the um the true success of 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.360 his of his new invention. He wouldn't know exactly what 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.520 that would have brought him, the windfall that that would 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.120 have meant. I mean, I knew he he thought it 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:12.720 was big, and of course he was trying to patent it. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.960 But um, I don't think he had any comprehension of 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:17.640 the type of money that that would have brought in 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.480 had that been the fact. It's it's not very likely 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.760 that he committed suicide either, because he did have this. 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:25.440 He had a loving family. He there were a lot 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.360 of letters that were shared between um, you know later 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.320 on that were shown between him and his wife and 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.560 other members of his family, and you know, his whole 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.920 family was behind him. They were all supportive. It wasn't like, 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.000 you know, he was um, I don't know. It wasn't 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.120 like he was ostracized in some way, you know, he was. 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.720 He was definitely a tight part of this, this close 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:49.040 knit family. So the suicide theory is rather unlikely for 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.240 a few reasons. All Right, we need to take a 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:59.640 quick break, but we'll be right back with more. All right, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.480 we're back now. I know. Another one of the theories, 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.080 which I guess maybe we can get to next, is 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:10.600 the one that involves some kind of industrial escapade or 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.680 do should we do that next? Or why? It's another 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.600 very popular one, right, So I do think we want 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:20.240 to be careful not to just blithely throw out historical 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.280 murder accusations. But we wouldn't be doing this from out 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.600 another out of nowhere like other people have sort of 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.480 alleged this based on just circumstances, right, sure, Yeah, it's 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.080 all circumstantial. Everything is in this in this case again, 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.639 there's nothing really concrete here to hold onto. Yeah, alright, 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.280 So the theory if you if you want me to 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:39.960 just jump right into it, you get to jump right in. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.399 So it's the timing is so suspecting this, and we 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.679 we mentioned, you know, there's somebody else involved, and Thomas 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.439 Edizen's name gets thrown into the mix quite often when 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.840 we're talking about this, that that Thomas Edison actually had 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:59.240 um Louis La Prince assassinated on that train or somewhere 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.200 near that train. Now, was this something that was alleged 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.840 by anyone at the time or was it only an 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.080 accusation that was alleged like historically as an interpretation many 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.280 years later. I believe that the family thought initially that 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.520 that's what this was all about, because and I don't 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.879 think initially I don't think they initially came up with 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.600 this theory. I think that later we will find out, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.399 you know, there's some other things that go on to 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.320 that that kind of they kind of demonized Thomas Yson 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.840 a little bit um um in the way that the 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.440 patent was eventually handled. We'll get to it. Well, I 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.880 do know I read right, Am I wrong in saying 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.760 that at some point um Louis La Prince's wife said 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.840 that he had left New York because he was trying 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.920 to escape being pursued by industrial spies. Yeah, so there's 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.120 some background there, a little bit you know that there 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.400 is there, there is a little bit of that intrigue 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.160 that you know, there could be something going on there 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.560 that's a little more nefarious than we would like to 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.160 to think now of this person, you know, Thomas Edison. Um. 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.320 But then again that's like secondhand hearsay, right exactly, Yeah, 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:09.879 that's right. Now. A lot of this is I mean 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.159 a lot of it is you know, you know, this 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.760 person said this to this agency and they reported that, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.480 and you know, it's just it gets kind of distributed 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.600 or passed down and it changes a little bit along 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.520 the way. Right. And then also like if someone is 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.200 you know, allegedly speaking to paranoia about industrial spies following 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.399 them around like that, also, I mean you could interpret 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.080 that as being a sign of of you know, some 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.920 form of you know, not conspiracy, but perhaps you know, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.960 mental illness. Oh sure, that's also possible. And we're not 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.760 we're stress. We should say this right now. I guess 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.600 we haven't even said this. But but Thomas Edison wouldn't 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.760 have been you know, the hit man. He wouldn't have 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.720 been the guy, you know, the guy pulling the cord 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.640 tight around the other guy's neck or anything. It would 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.240 have been hinchman. Or if if it was you know 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.200 something of that you were thinking of from Russia with 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.399 love as well. We can't help to think of all 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.119 the cinemat tin, piano wire and all that Thomas Edison 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.080 played by what's his name? Quint Oh, yeah, Robert Shaw 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.520 come up all right, So I mean it's it's fascinating 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.560 the timing of all of when all this happens, and 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.639 the way that Edison then benefited from the death of 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.359 Louis la prince Um via the patent. So remind us 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.520 again exactly of the timing here. Okay, So the timing 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.680