1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Invention, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: welcome to Invention. My name is Robert lamp and I'm 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and we have got a treat for you today. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Last time we told you we would be back this 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: time with a murder mystery from the development of the 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: motion picture technology history, and today our friend Scott Benjamin 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: is joining us on the show. Yeah, that's right. I mean, 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: people keep turning up dead in history of the Motion 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: picture so we thought we'd bring bring in somebody extra 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: to help us out with the heavy lifting on this one. 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: Scott loves murder and he's really great at talking about it, 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: and uh, I think it's gonna be so much fun. 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: So let's go right to our talk with Scott. Hey, So, 14 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: if you have been listening to this show for a while, 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: and if you have made it to the little koda 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: we tend to do at the end of every episode 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: when we when we do our outro music, we you've 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: probably heard us mention Scott Benjamin, who helps with research 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: on this and we've got such a treat for you. 20 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: Scott Benjamin is joining us in studio today. Scott. It 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: is a pleasure to have you. Thank you for having me. 22 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. But what should people know about you? Well, 23 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: I've been around here for a long time. I've been 24 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: a podcaster with How Stuff Works originally, uh, for about 25 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: eleven years now, um taken the last couple of years 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: off off air, I guess, um as I do research 27 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: and writing for some other shows and true crime stuff. 28 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: In fact, I've got an all new true crime podcast 29 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: coming out pretty soon of my own. I can't really 30 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: give you too many more details about it right now, 31 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: but but it's it's on its way. But this is 32 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: one this is key to while we're having you on 33 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: here now, because you've been helping us with the invention 34 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: research and then suddenly we ran across a little bit 35 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: of true crime, but potentially true crime, or at least 36 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: a mystery that's kind of embedded in the research for 37 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: the invention of the motion picture exactly. Yeah, And I 38 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: thought this was just a little bit too juicy to 39 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: let it go, you know, without without investigating this just 40 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: a little bit more. And uh, to be honest with you, 41 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: it's about a hundred and one nine year old cold 42 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: case now, so I don't think we're gonna you know, 43 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: be you know, solving anything. I don't. I don't think so, 44 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: but well we we could try at least we can 45 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: at least, uh, you know, let people know what's happening 46 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: and let them investigate it for themselves and see what 47 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: they think, because there's a few theories about what happened. Alright, 48 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: So here's what here's what's going on. Um. We tend 49 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: to credit the invention of the motion picture camera to 50 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: either Edison or the Lumier brothers. And you know, we 51 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: we've got kind of know the history behind that and 52 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: the timing. It's all kind of strange timing. It all 53 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: ties in very very closely. Well, it appears that there 54 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: was somebody that was filming motion of filming scenes long 55 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: time prior to that, six seven years prior to that. 56 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: And the earliest film that we have on record anything 57 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: that remains still is from eighteen eighty eight October. As 58 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, UM we know the date because 59 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: of a specific reason. I'll tell you in a minute. 60 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: But it's called the Roundhay Garden scene and that was 61 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: shot by um a man named Louis la Prince, and 62 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: Louis la Prince of course French born French born um inventor. 63 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: He had a lot of other things that he had 64 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: had developed. A lot of them had to do with cinematography, 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: the early days of cinematography. Um. He filmed this scene. 66 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: It was just it's just like two point one seconds, 67 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: I think, very quick, but it does show motion. And 68 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: he was using you know, a type of film that 69 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: was it the early days of film that the um paperbacked, 70 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: and you know it had a very complex way of 71 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: getting this, you know, down and captured. Now, this one, 72 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: the Rounday garden scene, is this before the celluloid film? 73 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: It is just before the celluloid film, right, so that 74 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: was just just after this he had not yet really 75 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: quite kind of experimented with that yet. UM. They know 76 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: the date of this film because specifically, ten days later, 77 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: one of the people appeared in the film died, So 78 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: it was like, you know, this is film in October fourteenth, 79 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: but on October his mother in law who was shown 80 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: in the film passed away. So they know specifically that 81 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: it was prior to this date. In in it's it's approvable. 82 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: But by that UM, he did another scene it was 83 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: like this, I think it was a traffic crossing leeds 84 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: Bridge in eight as well, and there's a few other 85 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: early films that have survived, but they're all from right 86 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: in this in this timeframe, the stuff from Edison and 87 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: from the Lumire Brothers are in you know, the well 88 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: the early UM eighteen nineties UM. And then the patents 89 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: came later. But that's part of the story that we're 90 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: getting too here. You know, the patents, right, so we 91 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: know that Edison was was very much like a patent 92 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: talk or is that the right word. I mean, I 93 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: think there's a little bit of over demonization of Edison 94 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: that maybe goes on on the internet today. A few 95 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: years back, what was it, There was something like popular 96 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: comic strip where it was basically like Tesla is great, 97 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: Edison sucks, which, which, of course it's it's you know, it's, it's, 98 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: it's It's probably a flawed idea to really go all 99 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: in on on either individual as being like you know 100 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: this this this angelic figure of invention or this demonic adversary. Yeah. 101 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: Maybe actually it over sells Tesla instead of underselling Edison. Well, 102 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, one of the problems I guess is that Edison. 103 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: Edison had a huge laboratory that he worked in where 104 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: he employed many many inventors, and then of course anything 105 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: that was invented under that umbrella, he would then take 106 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: the credit for it. He would say, you know this 107 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: Edison's invention. It's just like any other major corporation does. Now. 108 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: The automotive companies do it all the time. You know, 109 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: people invent features, functions, you know, uh, parts, components, and 110 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: they may get the patent, but uh you know, uh, 111 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: I don't know a Ford or GM owns that product, 112 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: they own that that that the patent, they get the 113 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: royalties from all that. Well, this is something we've seen 114 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: over and over again just looking at the history, photography, 115 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: and and now the motion picture is that you know, 116 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: we want to think about the inventor ter as this 117 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: uh this you know, this this individual this just out 118 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: there figuring out stuff on their own. And a lot 119 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: of a lot of inventors do fall into that category. 120 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: But increasingly there's no closer to get into the modern 121 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: era the more you see this uh industrialization of invention, 122 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: the corporate um use of invention, and so you know, 123 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: Edison is just a part of that growing trend. I 124 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: mean already talked about Kodak on the show. Yeah, I 125 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: mean we tend to think of inventors as or we 126 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: like to think of inventors as like like Victor Frankenstein, right, like, 127 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: you know, the independent scientist working on a problem in 128 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: solitude with their own mad genius. But more often it's 129 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: true that inventors need to be part of a system 130 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: that's like providing infrastructure that makes their invention possible at 131 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: the same time that they're working on the invention. And 132 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: the movie camera is a perfect example of this, because 133 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: you couldn't really have the kind of movie cameras that 134 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: even Edison's people came up with, like William Dixon came 135 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: up with, until you had celluloid film and that was 136 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: what you know, other people were working on. What would 137 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: Frankenstein have been, like the novel had it been Frankenstein inc. Right, Yeah, 138 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: Edison's likes you know, he gets one of his little 139 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: lab assistants like resurrect the dead, you know, and then 140 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: I'll get the patent. Yeah, this and this stuff is 141 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: happening on separate continents as well, so you know, it's 142 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: just one of those times in history where you know 143 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: that they're working on the same thing hundreds if not 144 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: thousands of miles apart. And they don't quite know it yet. 145 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: They don't each each doesn't know what the other one 146 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: is doing right at that moment, unless you know, there's 147 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: some talk within the community of scientists, you know, inventors 148 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: of what they're working on. And uh, and likely they 149 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: would have kept that pretty you know, close to the vest. 150 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: They wouldn't have really said, hay, I'm working on this 151 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: new camera and here's in fact, here's a drawing off 152 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: how it works. Why don't you, Uh, I haven't see 153 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: if you can perfect that now it doesn't work that way. 154 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: They keep them really really tight, um until of course, 155 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: the you know, the goal is the patent, of course, 156 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, to make their royalties from this invention. And uh, 157 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: apparently it looks like La Prince beat Edison to the 158 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, to the mark there on the one. So 159 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: he made all the money, right, No, no, didn't make 160 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: any money on it. In fact, I guess maybe we 161 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: should jump right into the story here at this point 162 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: right now, tell us about the mystery. All right, so 163 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: you know he's he's working on a stuff. He actually 164 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: successfully films these scenes, the round Hey Garden scene, you know, 165 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: the traffic crossing leeds Bridge, etcetera. And he's got this device. 166 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: It's a it's a single lens camera, and this is 167 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: an improvement over a camera that he had just prior 168 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: to that, which was like a sixteen lens camera that 169 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: shot there's actually two banks of eight lenses. I think 170 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: that we're that would quickly take images and then you 171 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: could put those together and then show them in rapid 172 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: succession and make, you know, make a moving image out 173 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: of them. This is a single lens camera that would 174 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: record continuous motion. Right, so this is quite different, less 175 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: laborious editing. Yes, yes, exactly right. And again and this 176 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: is the old paperback film at this point, you know, 177 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: it's not the not the cleloid at this at this point, um, 178 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: but he has this invention. He's ready to uh find 179 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: he's finally after you know, showing it to friends and 180 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: family and you know, projecting these on on screens and 181 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: his his laboratory or wherever you know, these private showings. 182 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: He's ready to go with you to the public with this, 183 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: to to show it publicly and then file for a 184 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: patent in New York City here in the United States. 185 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: And this is all going to happen in I believe 186 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: in October of eighteen ninety, that's when it's supposed to happen. 187 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: And so prior to that, you know, he's he's still 188 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of touring around and he's got his family trying 189 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: to get things together in New York City, trying to 190 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: get things like a place to do this, you know, 191 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: a proper venue, etcetera, and uh, and they're working on 192 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: the they've got it. He's still in France and he 193 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: makes a trip to see his brother, which is expected 194 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: at this point because I guess his his mother had 195 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: just passed just prior to this, so his brother is 196 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: in charge of the estate and kind of breaking up 197 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: the estate and you know the will, I guess, you know, 198 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: executing the will. So he makes a trip to Dijon, France, 199 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: and he is he spends like three days as his brother, 200 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: and who knows, you know, what's going on there, whether 201 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: it's you know, they're talking about finances or whatever. I'm 202 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: sure there's a lot to discuss at that point. But 203 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: then his brother takes him to the train platform, you know, 204 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: the other train um station there in town in Dijon, 205 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: and it's a Dijon to Paris Express trains, so it's 206 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: not gonna stop anywhere. It's gonna go straight from there, 207 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: right to Paris, and he's back where he has to be. 208 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: And then I think he's going to head to England 209 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: and then to New York for this, for this, you know, 210 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: the showing this patent awarding or whatever. Um. His brother 211 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: says that he put him on the train on the platform, 212 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: and that's the last anybody ever saw of the prince. 213 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: He just disappears somewhere in between Dijon and in Paris 214 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: on a NonStop train, on a NonStop train, he completely 215 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: disappears and his luggage disappears. There's no paper record of 216 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: him being on the train really, Um, other than his 217 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: brother's word that he put him on the train, no 218 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: one can remember seeing him on the train, Like he 219 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: didn't share a cabin with anybody or anything like that. 220 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: And this is a pretty notable guy. And aside front, 221 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: the guy was six ft four, so he kind of 222 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: stands out today. Yeah, he would, he's a tall guy. UM. 223 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how well how well known he was 224 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: at that point, if anybody could really recognize him, I 225 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: don't think that he was. Um, but there's really no 226 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: sighting of him on the train. Itself, and certainly not 227 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: in Paris when when it arrived. So obviously that seems 228 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 1: suspicious like that. People don't normally disappear from trains. But 229 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: uh so, so the question would be, are there any 230 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: reasons people had to suspect foul play related to his invention? 231 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: Other and just the fact that he was about to 232 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: debut a hotly contested invention for which people would be 233 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: competing for patents. Well, the timing is extremely convenient for 234 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: anybody else who might be working on this a similar invention. 235 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: I mean, so think about who that might be, and 236 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: we'll talk about them in just a moment. All of 237 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: this is going down on September sixteenth, eighteen ninety He's 238 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: what forty nine years old at this point. Um, And again, 239 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: just two months later, or even one month later, I 240 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: believe he was supposed to be in New York to 241 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: debut this this and this would have uh clearly, it 242 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: would have revolutionized the industry. I mean, it was something 243 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: that was going to make him a lot of money, 244 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: no doubt about it. All Right, so he vanishes, But 245 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: then what's the follow up. Who's looking for him? Well, 246 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: of course there's going to be an investigation right, I 247 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: mean his brother. His brother's word is that, you know, 248 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: he put him on this train and and now he's 249 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: just suddenly gone into thin air. Right. So Scotland Yard 250 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: is on the case, and you would think Scotland Yard 251 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: would do a pretty good decent, you know, examination of 252 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: what's going on here an investigation. The French police are 253 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: also looking and his family of course is searching for 254 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: him as well, in addition to the other two agencies. 255 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: So um, I don't know who they hired or how 256 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: they went about that, the family themselves, but you've got 257 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: three separate groups looking for him for years. Really, I 258 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: mean they're they're they're trying to track him down, trying 259 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: to figure out exactly what happened, because again, it doesn't 260 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: just happen like this. So um, it's just a real 261 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,359 Speaker 1: strange occurrence. So if he disappeared, could you tell initially 262 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: what the predominant theory was like at the time. Did 263 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: they think he was dead or did they think he 264 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: had run off for what? You know, I don't know 265 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: if there was a predominant theory at that time. I 266 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: think there were just so many different thoughts going through 267 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: everybody's head, like what could have happened to this guy. 268 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot a lot of these came 269 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: up later in time. I mean, some of them are like, 270 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, discussed in the nineteen sixties. You know, so 271 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: we're still talking about this guy seventy five plus years 272 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: later with a new theory about what might have happened. 273 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: But there are there are three or four main theories 274 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: that have been tossed around for the last in twenty 275 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 1: nine years now. The more recent theories are going to 276 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, pertain to our our our modern interpretations and 277 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: really why we remember this guy. But but at the time, 278 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's like, surely they probably approached this in 279 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: the same way one might approach a modern disappearance, and 280 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: they would look too, They would looked to family, they 281 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: would look to you know, connections and major stressors in 282 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: their personal life. I mean, this is a guy who 283 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: recently lost a loved one, may have been involved in something, 284 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: and I mean was definitely involved in some sort of 285 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: a state, uh situation. Sure yeah, um, And uh you know, 286 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: I guess we can just talk about the very first theory, 287 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: which was of course suicide. They thought maybe he had 288 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: jumped from the train on his own somewhere between Dijon 289 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: and Paris. But they searched, you know, track side that 290 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: whole distance, didn't find anything. Didn't find of course, you know, 291 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: why would he take his luggage with him? If he 292 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: did that and all that, it would make it even 293 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: more visible if you know there's the body and luggage somewhere, 294 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, in the woods in between or something like that, 295 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: or you've jumped off a bridge or right. Okay, So 296 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: I guess I'd have two questions about that. Number One, 297 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: if anybody thinks that suicide, is there any physical evidence 298 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: to indicate that. No physical evidence. That's the thing. All 299 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: of this is just circumstantial evidence because there's nobody there's 300 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: there's no proof of anything. No one saw him, there's 301 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: no witnesses. But the theory, I think that one of 302 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: the theories behind the suicide thought is that um, he 303 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: was he was in a significant amount of debt when 304 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: he died. That was the other thing I was gonna ask. Yeah, 305 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: so he's you know, he's an eventuorre. He's probably borrowing, 306 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: taking loans some people to get these inventions off the ground, 307 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: these fledgling inventions. And I have seen numbers around and 308 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, these numbers are suspect because they come from 309 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: a lot of different places and you read different numbers everywhere. 310 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: But they said that he was somewhere around eighty four 311 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in debt at the time of his death. 312 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: That would have been a lot of money, and it 313 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: still has a lot of money, I guess, but it 314 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: would be so much more in you know what kind 315 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: of an unheard of amount. And um, he I guess 316 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: he didn't really know the um the true success of 317 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: his of his new invention. He wouldn't know exactly what 318 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: that would have brought him, the windfall that that would 319 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: have meant. I mean, I knew he he thought it 320 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: was big, and of course he was trying to patent it. 321 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: But um, I don't think he had any comprehension of 322 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: the type of money that that would have brought in 323 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: had that been the fact. It's it's not very likely 324 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: that he committed suicide either, because he did have this. 325 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: He had a loving family. He there were a lot 326 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: of letters that were shared between um, you know later 327 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: on that were shown between him and his wife and 328 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: other members of his family, and you know, his whole 329 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: family was behind him. They were all supportive. It wasn't like, 330 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, he was um, I don't know. It wasn't 331 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: like he was ostracized in some way, you know, he was. 332 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: He was definitely a tight part of this, this close 333 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: knit family. So the suicide theory is rather unlikely for 334 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: a few reasons. All Right, we need to take a 335 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with more. All right, 336 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: we're back now. I know. Another one of the theories, 337 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: which I guess maybe we can get to next, is 338 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: the one that involves some kind of industrial escapade or 339 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: do should we do that next? Or why? It's another 340 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: very popular one, right, So I do think we want 341 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: to be careful not to just blithely throw out historical 342 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: murder accusations. But we wouldn't be doing this from out 343 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: another out of nowhere like other people have sort of 344 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: alleged this based on just circumstances, right, sure, Yeah, it's 345 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: all circumstantial. Everything is in this in this case again, 346 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: there's nothing really concrete here to hold onto. Yeah, alright, 347 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: So the theory if you if you want me to 348 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: just jump right into it, you get to jump right in. 349 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: So it's the timing is so suspecting this, and we 350 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, there's somebody else involved, and Thomas 351 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: Edizen's name gets thrown into the mix quite often when 352 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about this, that that Thomas Edison actually had 353 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: um Louis La Prince assassinated on that train or somewhere 354 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: near that train. Now, was this something that was alleged 355 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: by anyone at the time or was it only an 356 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: accusation that was alleged like historically as an interpretation many 357 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: years later. I believe that the family thought initially that 358 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: that's what this was all about, because and I don't 359 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: think initially I don't think they initially came up with 360 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: this theory. I think that later we will find out, 361 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: you know, there's some other things that go on to 362 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: that that kind of they kind of demonized Thomas Yson 363 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: a little bit um um in the way that the 364 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: patent was eventually handled. We'll get to it. Well, I 365 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: do know I read right, Am I wrong in saying 366 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: that at some point um Louis La Prince's wife said 367 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: that he had left New York because he was trying 368 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: to escape being pursued by industrial spies. Yeah, so there's 369 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: some background there, a little bit you know that there 370 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: is there, there is a little bit of that intrigue 371 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: that you know, there could be something going on there 372 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: that's a little more nefarious than we would like to 373 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: to think now of this person, you know, Thomas Edison. Um. 374 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: But then again that's like secondhand hearsay, right exactly, Yeah, 375 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: that's right. Now. A lot of this is I mean 376 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: a lot of it is you know, you know, this 377 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: person said this to this agency and they reported that, 378 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: and you know, it's just it gets kind of distributed 379 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: or passed down and it changes a little bit along 380 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: the way. Right. And then also like if someone is 381 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, allegedly speaking to paranoia about industrial spies following 382 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: them around like that, also, I mean you could interpret 383 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: that as being a sign of of you know, some 384 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: form of you know, not conspiracy, but perhaps you know, 385 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: mental illness. Oh sure, that's also possible. And we're not 386 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: we're stress. We should say this right now. I guess 387 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: we haven't even said this. But but Thomas Edison wouldn't 388 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: have been you know, the hit man. He wouldn't have 389 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: been the guy, you know, the guy pulling the cord 390 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: tight around the other guy's neck or anything. It would 391 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: have been hinchman. Or if if it was you know 392 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: something of that you were thinking of from Russia with 393 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: love as well. We can't help to think of all 394 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: the cinemat tin, piano wire and all that Thomas Edison 395 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: played by what's his name? Quint Oh, yeah, Robert Shaw 396 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: come up all right, So I mean it's it's fascinating 397 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: the timing of all of when all this happens, and 398 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: the way that Edison then benefited from the death of 399 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: Louis la prince Um via the patent. So remind us 400 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: again exactly of the timing here. Okay, So the timing 401 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: is that in I guess it would be September sixteenth 402 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: of eighteen nineties when Louis the Prince went went missing, 403 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: and again Edison was simultaneously working on his own camera, 404 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: but it wasn't ready yet at the time, very very 405 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: close now that they got their patents in. Yeah, that's right, 406 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: and he was supposed to have the showing are the 407 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: the public viewing of his device is is his camera 408 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: the Prince was the Prince was in October of eighteen 409 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: ninety So the timing is just far too convenient for Edison. 410 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: It raised a lot of eyebrows, that's supposed to say, 411 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: because he benefited in such a tremendous way from this 412 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: because his name is now tied in with the birth 413 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: of cinematography, the birth of motion pictures. Really, um as 414 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: our Loomier brothers who came about just a little bit later, 415 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: I believe, right. Um, so nobody's alleged, I mean, even 416 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: if there's not much to these allegations, nobody's alleged that 417 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: the loomi Are brothers were involved. No, absolutely not, No, 418 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: it's all it's all focused on. Yeah, that's right, because well, 419 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: the Lomiere brothers, I think like one of the things 420 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: there is that a lot of the interpretations are that 421 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: they they didn't necessarily see the long term future of 422 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: this technology themselves, so they don't seem to have the 423 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: character of like, you know, viciously plotting for their their 424 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: you know, their their takeover of the culture via there 425 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: at this new tech that they've developed. No, no, absolutely not. 426 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: It's yeah, that shouldn't their names shouldn't really come into 427 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: the assassination. Um I'm theory at all. I mean, but 428 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: we'll stick with Edison being the scapegoat on that one. 429 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: And you know, as funny as as reading this, you'll 430 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: come across so many different versions of this in the 431 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: way that this all went down. And and Joe, you 432 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: and I had a discussion earlier in the office about 433 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: about some of the stuff that's very very misleading. Oh, yes, 434 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: that's right. Well, I mean, so there is one I 435 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: was looking for good like, you know, articles in journals, 436 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: like journals that would cover the history of photography and 437 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: stuff like that, peer reviewed kind of things. And there's 438 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: one article that is widely cited around the Internet that 439 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: alleges the discovery of a diary entry by Thomas Edison 440 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: from where he essentially confesses to the murder. Do you 441 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: have the exact words? If you do, I want to 442 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: be clear. We're gonna heavily caveat this in a second. Yeah, yeah, okay. 443 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: So supposedly, should I tell where this letter came from 444 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: or do you want the exact note? Yeah? Go ahead, 445 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: all right. So this supposedly comes from a graduate student 446 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: at the University of New York UM named Alexis Bedford, 447 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: And in two thousand and eight it was it was 448 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: said that he was he was studying uh chemistry and 449 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: photography and was conducting research into history of motion pictures 450 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: for about a year and a half prior to this discovery. 451 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: And the search leads him to what they called the 452 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: inner Forgotten Archives of the New York Library's hysterious already, right, 453 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: it's probably room full of dusty books and all that. 454 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: So he's finding, um, you know, these journals, these notes, 455 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: these pages, and you know that that are actually the 456 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: work of Thomas Citizen. And he stumbles across this book 457 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: that's just kind of fallen apart. It's a leather bound book. 458 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: It's very dusty and old, but it's a journal of 459 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: Thomas Edizen. That would be fantastic to find something like that. 460 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: That was, you know, at this point undiscovered. Really, it 461 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: was just put in on the shelf and left um 462 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: in the journal. You know, of course he jotted, and 463 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: he was known to keep journals like this where jot 464 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: down ideas and thoughts and sketches. All most inventors do that, 465 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: all of them do, probably. But he finds the following 466 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: note and it's got the date of September nine, which 467 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: is four days after the Prince went missing. And the 468 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: note says exactly, Eric called me today from Dijon. It 469 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: has been done. Prince is no more. This is good news. 470 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: But I flinched when he told me murder is not 471 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: my thing. I'm an inventor, and my inventions for moving 472 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: images can now move forward. That's the end of the entry. 473 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: So I have seen this cited all over in like 474 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: blog posts and even in books I looked at. This 475 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: has been cited in books as evidence of Edison's involvement 476 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: in this supposed murder. I am ninety nine point nine 477 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: nine certain that this is a work of fiction. And 478 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: I don't mean a work of fraud. I don't mean 479 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: like a something that is trying to be passed off 480 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: as nonfiction. I believe that this article is intentionally published 481 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: as a work of fiction that has been misinterpreted as 482 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: a as like a straightforward report of a real event. 483 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: What led you to believe it? And there are a 484 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: bunch of things. I mean, number one, it's well never 485 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: why it's if this were true. This is just a 486 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: straight up murder confession, yes, you know, or at least 487 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: conspiracy to murder. Well, I mean, the the language of 488 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: it is somewhat an achronistic. It is not my thing. 489 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: Uh uh Well, I mean, on one hand, I want 490 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: to say, as a work of fiction, I think this 491 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: isn't that bad, it's it's it's kind of interesting. But 492 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: so I tried to look up the names that are 493 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: cited in this article, like of the student who discovered this, 494 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: and of another historian who's named in this article. I 495 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: can't find evidence of these people. They don't appear to 496 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: me to be real people. Um, there's of course that problem. 497 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: One thing that I noticed is that it says Edison 498 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: says in his confession from eighteen ninety and his diaries 499 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: that he says Eric called me today from Dijon. So 500 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety he received a transatlantic phone call. That 501 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: is not possible. I do not think there were transatlantic 502 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: phone calls in eighteen ninety. I know when the first 503 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: one was made. Oh yeah, yeah, I was January seven, 504 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: So thirty seven years after this call was supposedly made. 505 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: Is when is when he claims this? This note claims 506 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: that he received a phone call. I think we've had 507 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: a problem here of just mislabeling an article from a 508 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: journal that should have been clearly noted as a piece 509 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: of fiction but has confused a lot of people, right, 510 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: And it could have been more clearly labeled in the 511 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: print version, but was then digitized that's possible. Yeah, correctly 512 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: you said earlier as well, Robert, that you know, there 513 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: have been pieces of fiction that have been passed off 514 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: as scientific well, or at least have been published in 515 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: scientific journals, not even necessarily passed right, just like presenting 516 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: like hey, like Peter Watts was the example came up. 517 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: Peter Watts former marine biologists uh turned sci fi writer, 518 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: and some of his works of short fiction have appeared 519 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: in scientific journals. Um, but but they were they were 520 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: they were not presented as a science. But then again, 521 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: if if the scie can well imagine where of a 522 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: journal were digitized, I wouldn't even say incorrectly, but without 523 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: like sufficient u uh, you know, metadata, metadata or branding, 524 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: like you could have something that is that that his 525 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: fiction would show up and be like, oh, well, here's this, 526 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: here's this murder confession, uh just shows up out of nowhere. 527 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Al Right. It seems completely implausible, doesn't it you. No, 528 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: I do not think this happened. I don't. I don't 529 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: think so. No. No, I just I don't put a 530 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: whole lot of stock behind it. But I think a 531 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: lot of people do. A lot of people like the 532 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: intrigue of of thinking that you know Edison was really 533 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: that bad that he would have somebody off over an invention. 534 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: He did kill Topsy the elephant and horses, and yeah, 535 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: yeah he was. He liked to experiment with electricity, didn't he. 536 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Tom, I'm not saying I think it's impossible 537 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: that Thomas Edison had something to do with this, but 538 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: I definitely ly think that this thing about his murder 539 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: confession in the diary is a work of fiction that 540 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: has been misinterpreted as a real factual article. And number two, 541 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: I don't know we should be careful about making historical 542 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: accusations of murder just based on circumstantial evidence because remind 543 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: us again, there is no physical evidence of this whatsoever, 544 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: No nothing concrete at all of it. But but there 545 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: is often this this this tendency I think to want 546 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: to see the past in movie form, and you know, 547 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: and which is around iven we're talking about motion pictures. 548 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: We want to see it dramaticized, you know, we want 549 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: to think it more along the lines of the prestige 550 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, with with it had a villainous Edison and 551 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 1: a right who did send Henchman to like hack up 552 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: testlas stuff. Yeah, it's great well, okay, maybe maybe it's possible, 553 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: but not not really then likely, Yeah, I'd go with that. Okay, 554 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: all right, So that was that was a second one. 555 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: There's a there's actually three. They're five here total if 556 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: you want, because I'm kind of all right. So number 557 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: three would be the disappearance. That was a disappearance that 558 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: was ordered by the family. Now, again pretty unlikely in 559 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: this case because it was a tight knit family. We 560 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: do know that from notes that were passed between family members. 561 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: It was a loving, tight knit group. His brother is 562 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: the last one to see him alive, and there's this 563 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: whole state business. Yeah that's right. Well that's yeah exactly, 564 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: So that's a that's a possibility. The the disappearance that 565 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: was ordered by the family was something that was born 566 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: out of the idea that La Prince could have been 567 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: a closeted homosexual that you know, he had a family, 568 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: had kids. However, he was carrying on these these other 569 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: relationships that were homosexual in nature, and the family was 570 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: at the time embarrassed by this and sent him away 571 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: to live somewhere else without them. You know that he 572 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: was kind of the shame of the family at this point. 573 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: So like they banished him into some kind of exile 574 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: because he was gay exactly. Yea, that's the thought, that's 575 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: the theory. And you know, I think that this is 576 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: one of the ones that comes about much later. I 577 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: think this is like from a nineteen sixty six French 578 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: film history book where the guy Jacques I'll mess up 579 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: the last name here, but the Land I'll say that's 580 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: it's probably his name close to it anyway. Um, he 581 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: suggested that his disappearance was because of his family. They 582 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: disapproved of his homosexuality, so they think that he fled 583 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: to Chicago, where he died in nineteen I'm sorry, naturally, 584 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: And again, I know these numbers are coming out of nowhere, 585 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: and there's not a shred of you know, evidence or 586 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: proof that that's what happened. But it's just a theory. 587 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: It's another theory that and I don't know why the 588 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Land thinks that, but he does. I mean in much 589 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: in the same way that it's possible that Edison, you know, 590 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: orchestrated and murder. I mean, certainly we could imagine that 591 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: this being the case. I mean, it certainly lines up 592 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: with you know, with homophobia at the during that time period. 593 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: And um, but I would, well, like, what's the actual it? 594 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: And so I think I've read a critique of this 595 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: theory that said that there's really no evidence that he 596 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: was gay. Now there's no there's no evidence of any 597 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: of this, Yeah, none of it, I mean, and not 598 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: that he lived in Chicago, not that he died in Um. 599 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: When I say there's no proof of that, there's no, 600 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: there's really nothing to this. It's just another theory that 601 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: was thrown out there again as late as nineteen sixty six, 602 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: so we're talking, uh, seventy six years later after the 603 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: guy has gone. It's just a theory that was posited 604 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: by somebody that you know, you could grab onto and 605 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: say like, well it's possible. You know. This reminds me 606 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, Jack the Ripper theories. So 607 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: it's except more limited in scope, I guess. But you know, 608 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: Alan Moore's whole uh evaluation of that is that it 609 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: ultimately is this uh, this couch snowflake scenario, the whole 610 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: like Freemason conspiracy with the what the surgeon to the 611 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: Queen Victoria? Oh yeah, I mean, there there's so many 612 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: different version but ultimately, like his argument was, there's we 613 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: only know so much and we will only ever know 614 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: so much, and uh, you know, it's just kind of 615 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: an exercise and how many a little uh a little 616 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, blank spaces we can fill in. I think 617 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: actual historians of the period think that, like that whole 618 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: theory is like definitely wrong for Jack the Ripper, right, 619 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: at least that's what I've read. Yeah, well, sure, I 620 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: mean it's all possible, right, Deep Cooper is another one, right, 621 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: you can ever talk about clue in the face, and 622 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: and of course there's always it seems like there's every 623 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: couple of years as someone who's making a deathbed confession 624 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: that they are dB Cooper or their father was dB. 625 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: And it's kind of safe to do that. In the 626 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: same way it's safe to to continue to make a 627 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: lot of ultimately kind of like crazy ideas because we 628 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: don't know and we probably never will know. That's exactly 629 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: the scenario with this here. And so what you're telling 630 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: us is that Thomas Edison wrote the Dear Boss Letter 631 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: like he was the Ripper. That's right. He did the 632 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: White Chapel murders because, let's see, because he was afraid 633 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: that they would get ahead of him on some kind 634 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: of knife patent. That's good theory, good theory, very likely 635 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: to back back to this case, though, what are some 636 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: more of our theories? Alright, So the the other one 637 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: and this is really one of the last ones that 638 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: you'll hear about. But then I've got another one I 639 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: want to throw in there too, um for retricide, which 640 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: is his brother killed him. Oh well, again coming back 641 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: to his brother, and exactly right, I mean it could 642 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: it have been over money, you know, his mother's will. 643 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: You know that. Did his brother get greedy and want 644 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: to take his share as well? And that's a that's 645 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: an entirely possible scenario. I mean, the only prince, the 646 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: only person that saw the prince at the Dijon station 647 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: was his brother. No one else saw him on the train, 648 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: no one else really, I don't even don't know if 649 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: there's a report of him being seen on the platform 650 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: even but his brother swears that that's the last place 651 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: that he saw him. He put him on the train 652 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: with his luggage and that was it. Then he just, 653 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, disappears into the midst somewhere. Well, I guess 654 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: a suspicion very often does fall when somebody disappears on 655 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: the last person to have seen them, right. Yeah. And 656 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: the other thing is, you know, of course, you know, 657 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: Scotland Yard and the French police and even the people 658 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: that were invest getting for the family, they all eventually 659 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: interviewed everybody that was on that train that night. There 660 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: was no uh you sense that anything aggressive was happening, 661 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: you know next door in the cabin or you know 662 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: that they they heard or saw anybody being thrown from 663 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: the train or jumping from the train or anything unusual. 664 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: And there was nothing really out of place on that 665 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: whole thing. It's just it's almost it's it's like he 666 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: was never there. And I think that's the idea, is 667 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: that he really was never there, never exactly the thought 668 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: behind this is that his brother had him disappear. To 669 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: put it politely, one more theory, Okay, I'll let it go. 670 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: There's there's other people that kind of throw this around 671 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: and talk about it, and um in a way that 672 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense with a lot of what we've just 673 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: told you. So that's they all have some kind of 674 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: hole in the in the story. But um, there's a 675 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: theory that he actually did make it to Paris and 676 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: he was on the train, took his luggage off the train, 677 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: but somehow wasn't seen by anybody the whole time, and 678 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: you know, had to take a cab from the train station, 679 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: which with the train I think would have arrived around 680 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: eleven pm, so very late. He was going to go 681 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: to a lab or you know, somewhere to work, maybe 682 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: a study or something in the house. And the theory 683 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: is that, you know, the the coach that he took 684 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: from the train station to wherever he was going to, 685 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: the person who was driving the coach likely just you know, 686 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: knocked him over the head stoleg'e luggage, you know, which 687 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: probably had some cameras and things and you are, some devices, 688 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: photographic devices and uh, and simply dumped him in the river. 689 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: And that was happening, I guess quite a bit at 690 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: that time. If you go back and investigate um, you know, murders, 691 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: at the time, it was not all that uncommon for 692 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: someone just to be kind of off quickly overnight like that, 693 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: um dumped in the river, never to be seen again 694 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: or found as a supposed drowned victim. And there's kind 695 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: of an interesting twist to that too, is that in 696 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: two thousand three, uh, someone's going through the Paris Police 697 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: archives and found a photograph of a drowning victim from 698 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: that looked a lot like Ui Le Prince. Really, yeah, 699 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: so there is a photograph of a drowning victim that 700 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: does match his description, that does look like him. Um, 701 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: and that's a possibility that he did drown or somebody 702 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: you know often made it look like a drowning and 703 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: that's when he was discovered. Well, this is this whole idea, 704 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: just the basic idea that maybe he did make it 705 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: to Paris. Like that opens it up tremendously because there 706 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: are only so many ways to die on an express 707 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: train to Paris, but there are hundreds of ways to 708 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: die in metropolitan Paris. But how does a six ft 709 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: four man, you know, blend in and not even make 710 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: his appearance, you know, known on any of the cabins, 711 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, if it's a full train, I don't know. 712 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: So why why do they think he didn't arrive in Paris? Like, 713 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: who who would have seen him there? Well? He was gosh, 714 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't know. He was scheduled to 715 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: go there to meet with friends I think, and then 716 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: a return trip to England. So maybe maybe people were 717 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: supposed to meet him in Paris and didn't, or maybe 718 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: he was supposed to meet them after, you know, I mean, 719 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: I guess picking up a friend at eleven o'clock at 720 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: the train station. That's kind of like it is now, 721 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: you know, picking up a friend at eleven o'clock at 722 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: the airport. It's not not a great favor to ask 723 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: of somebody, you know that sometimes you have to. But 724 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: maybe maybe they didn't they maybe they said you can 725 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: catch a cab, you know, meet me at this hotel 726 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: in the morning or something like that. This is all 727 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: again just theory. I don't really know that the surrounding 728 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: story about what was supposed to happen in Paris when 729 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: when he made it there. Um, But yeah, maybe he 730 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: did make it, maybe he didn't, We don't know. But 731 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: he's the theory again, the predominating or predominant theory is 732 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: that he went missing somewhere between Dijon and Paris. He 733 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: never really made it there. There's a lot of different 734 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: you know, ideas tossed about, and I'm sure you can 735 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: come up with five more you know, scenarios that that 736 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: might make sense. But the timing is just all very 737 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: very strange. Because again, this this this whole thing comes 738 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: back to this, this patent that never really happened, but 739 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 1: then Edison kind of swooped in and took the patent 740 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: the family. I guess you would think the family could 741 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: patent his devices. Um. I read somewhere that there is 742 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: like a seven year waiting period between when somebody goes 743 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: missing and you can I don't know if this is 744 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: a U. S. Patent law or what, but you're not 745 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: able to patent the family members item until after the 746 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: person is officially declared dead. And I think he was 747 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: declared dead in even so that was seven years later. 748 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: But in that time for in that window of time, 749 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: that's when Edison came in with his his new camera 750 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: and patented that device, and of course made a fortune 751 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: on the royalties. So just interesting timing with all this. 752 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: And of course you know they're that's sparked many patent wars. 753 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: We know they're patent wars that were happening at the 754 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: time over many many different things. I mean, the Right 755 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 1: Blood Right Brothers, they fought patent wars for about eleven years, 756 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: and the same thing with Alexander Graham Bell and the telephone. 757 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: It took something like eleven years and like six hundred lawsuits. 758 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: I think there was a huge over the telephone. There's 759 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: a huge patent fight just over celluloid film, because it 760 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: was apparent first developed in a sort of vague way 761 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: with a kind of poorly worded patent by uh, by 762 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: an episcopalian minister from New Jersey named Hannibal Goodwin. I 763 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: think that's right, hannibals right, yeah, I just looked it up. 764 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: That's right, Hannibal Goodwin. Um. But then also that he 765 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: was in competition with the patent fond celluloid film that 766 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: belong to the Eastman company. Uh and so they fought 767 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: over that. Of course, Eastman was producing you know, celluloid 768 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: film at at at bulk like enough to sell it 769 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: to Edison, and Goodwin was not. This still happens today. 770 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: I mean, Sony and Kodak were in a patent war 771 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: that lasted until two thousand seven over digital cameras. So 772 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: it's you know, newer technology, but you know they're still 773 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: fighting these same type of type of wars. You know, 774 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: it happened with radio, it happened with cars, airplanes, name 775 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: any big invention in light bulbs, it all, you know, 776 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: went through the courts in some way, many many different times, 777 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: and you know, there was always a addle over who 778 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: who invented it first and who has the rights to 779 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: it and gets the money from it. And then here 780 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: can then come to the patent trolls. Uh that's right. Yeah, 781 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: there are people that are pat controls, that's right, who 782 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: just kinda scoop up the patents from other people that 783 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: are more deserve are they're completely deserving of that patent 784 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: um and they take a course the credit for it. 785 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 1: And and I guess maybe medicine would you know, would 786 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: he count as possibly a pat control? I mean, he 787 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: had a different scenario. We talked about his labs and 788 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: you know how he had, you know, lots of inventors 789 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: working under his umbrella of Edison Labs, and that was 790 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: something different maybe, But um, yeah, he's well, I do 791 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: think Edison was not above pouncing on somebody else's idea 792 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: if he thought he could get there first. I think 793 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: so too, you know, I don't I don't know if 794 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: you would think that this would all kind of play 795 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: out smoothly in the courts, and it certainly didn't. I mean, 796 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: it wasn't wasn't as as cut and dry as you 797 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: might think, Um La Prince, La Prince's son ate. His 798 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: name is Adolph Um. He appeared in court, I guess 799 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: as a witness for the defense in a case that 800 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: was brought by Thomas Edison against a company called the 801 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: American Mutoscope and Biograph Company. That is an interesting and 802 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: interesting thing about that is that company was founded in 803 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: by William Kennedy Dixon, who was the guy that worked 804 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: under Edison at his lab to create the camera. He 805 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: developed a camera. He's the one who really did all 806 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, the um the photographic work on it, against 807 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: the lenses and you know the film and all that, 808 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, the technology that made that work. Really, yes, 809 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: so he's the one. He's the founder of that company. 810 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: So Edison is suing him. But La Prince, Uh, Adolph 811 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: La Prince his son again comes in and and testifies 812 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: Um as a witness for the defense in this court case. 813 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: And he claims in that court case that La Prince 814 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: was the first and only inventor of cinematography. So he 815 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: kind of throws in this bombshell into the into the proceedings, 816 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: and he says, of course because of that family, UM, 817 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: my dad had been you know, his dad had been 818 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: declared dead the year prior is then, um, they should 819 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: be getting receiving the royalties for this award for this uh, 820 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: this device, and of course the patent that goes along 821 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: with it, you know, the whole process, right. Well, he 822 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: was unable to submit his dad's cameras as evidence in 823 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: that court case. For some reason. The judge said, no, 824 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: you can't. You can't show me these cameras. He wasn't 825 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: able to put it into um, into the cases as evidence. 826 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: And so the court ruled in favor of Edison in 827 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: that particular case. But a couple of years later they 828 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: overturned that and you know that the direction was reversed 829 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: or the decision was versed rather. But this is another 830 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: interesting twist in the story is that Adolph was he's 831 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: a young man at this time. He's twenty nine years old. Um, 832 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: like two I think it's two years later it was, 833 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, three years later. It was a nineteen 834 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: o one. So he's twenty nine. He's out hunting, duck 835 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: hunting near his family cottage which is on fire eye 836 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: into New York State, and he ends up being shot 837 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: to death. And I don't know if he was hunting alone. 838 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: If he was hunting with somebody, you would think that 839 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: all this would have been a little bit more um, 840 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, public knowledge, you know what happened. But but 841 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: the the recording of this is that he was just 842 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: simply found dead after he was out duck hunting, with 843 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: his his own rifle at his side. They don't know 844 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: if it was suicide, if it was an accident, of course, 845 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: it could have been either one of those. Right, But 846 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: the mother, you know, the widow now La Prince, uh, 847 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: you know, the mother of Adolph, says that she thinks 848 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: that it's the second murder, that you know, the kid 849 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,720 Speaker 1: simply knew too much and because he had testified in court, 850 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: everybody else knew what he knew now and and that 851 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: was the reason for another merger. So there's another murder 852 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: mystery at the end of that. One that's never really 853 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: been solved either. Is that, you know, the sun turns 854 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: up dead at a young age just two years later, 855 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 1: three years later. So obviously the Edison villainists are yeah, 856 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: but they think he was involved in that too. Well, 857 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, that's again that's another thing. Yeah, that's a 858 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: possibility of what happened. But then on the same hand, 859 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,720 Speaker 1: you can see why murder does not need to actually 860 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: be involved for one to for especially with this family, 861 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: to um to have you know, some degree of hatred 862 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: or distrust of Edison, of course, and therefore it's not 863 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: that much more of elite than given. You know, if 864 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: you especially if you're distraught over you know, yet another 865 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: untimely death slash disappearance in the family, to do you know, 866 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: jump to this uh this next uh you know level 867 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: of accusation for sure, and they're going to point to 868 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: the villain that they already know. Yeah, he's already established 869 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: as the villain of the piece, the villain of the family. 870 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: And so yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean again, I 871 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: think this is just a fascinating part of history and 872 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: something that I never expected to come across when we're 873 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: talking about motion picture cameras. Yeah, I mean, it's strange 874 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: how you know that this story just I don't know. 875 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: It captivated me right from the beginning, but it's strange 876 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: the twists and turns that this story tastes all right. 877 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: Time to take a quick break, but we'll be right back. Alright, 878 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: we're back. So on the disappearance of La prince Um. 879 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: If you you you're someone who I think you've got 880 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: a good sense for for crime and and on cold 881 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: cases and all that. If you had to go with 882 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: your gut feeling, what do you think you'd say is 883 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: most likely to you, what feels most right to you, 884 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: What feels most right to me is that his brother 885 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: killed him. Yeah, yeah, And if he means having to 886 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: do with the inheritance or I do, and I think 887 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: that it's uh, Um, I think because of money is 888 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: just such a strong factor in a lot of these cases, 889 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,280 Speaker 1: and especially you know when you're talking about among family 890 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: members where they're supposedly tight, but money does come between 891 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: people like that, and it's unfortunate, but it happens. And 892 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: maybe he didn't have the he didn't have the the 893 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: foresight to know that. You know, his brother would have 894 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: been so much better off. He wouldn't have been you know, 895 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, burden, I don't know. I don't know 896 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: how better to put that. Maybe I'm saying that wrong 897 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 1: that you know, he wasn't really a burden. It's just 898 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 1: that he stood to make twice the amount of money 899 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: from the inheritance as he would if his brother was 900 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: still around. Um, he could take his share and um, 901 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: you know it's just downright greed. Yeah yeah, I mean 902 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,319 Speaker 1: I but ultimately, again this is just a circumstantial hunt, 903 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: right yeah, yeah, exactly right. I mean, any of them, 904 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,880 Speaker 1: any of these theories are are possible, not very likely 905 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: some of them. But but I think that the the 906 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: frighter side is probably the one that is closest to 907 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, but correct. I think. Yeah, so what about 908 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: either of you and he gut feelings on on what 909 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: it might be. I mean, on one level, we I 910 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: mean we already we talked about my Bridge, who definitely 911 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: commurdered somebody. There's no question about that. Yeah. So there's 912 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: so so the idea that there there are you know, 913 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: there there might be a murder in a photographic motion 914 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: picture history. You know, I'm I'm already on board with 915 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: that reality. Um, I guess. I mean I like your 916 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: argument though, I mean, when you come down to, like, 917 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: what are the reasons that homicides are committed? Uh, you know, 918 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: generally it's going to be some sort of you know, 919 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: a family connection or you know, somebody the victim knew, 920 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: uh not some shadowy organization that was plotting against them. 921 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: So it seems like that that that and Also it 922 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: removes the whole mystery of where how do they disappear 923 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: on the train? Uh? You know? And if he if he, 924 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, jumped to his death, why did he take 925 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: his luggage with him? And then why was that body 926 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: and or that luggage never found? So h yeah, I 927 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: like your argument on this. Okay, alright, fair enough? What 928 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: about you, jel, I don't know. I'm not good at 929 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: things like this. I I think sometimes of what people say, 930 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: and I know I don't want to malign you guys 931 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: because I asked the question, but I think of what 932 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: One time, somebody asked Carl Sagan, uh, you know, do 933 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: you think there are aliens out there? Or something like that? 934 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 1: And he said, I don't know, And they said, well, 935 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: what's your gut feeling? And he said, I try not 936 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: to think with my gut. Um, So I don't know. 937 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I may have gut feelings, but I feel 938 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: like maybe it's better or not to say them. Uh. 939 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: I guess I probably have a gut feeling that agrees 940 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: with you. Maybe I tend to think. You know, it's 941 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: when people are pointing outside of the inner circle, it 942 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: very often is something inside the inner circle. And then 943 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: again you know, a random crime could have possibly explained it. 944 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm not very convinced by the by the Edison thing. Yeah, 945 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: I think I think like the Parisian argument, Yeah, that 946 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,320 Speaker 1: that also is kind of convincing, the idea that like, 947 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: all right, maybe made it to Paris and they're just 948 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: people didn't notice him on the train. And then once 949 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,320 Speaker 1: he gets to Paris, there's you know, any number of 950 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: ways that he could have met his untimely a robbery 951 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,280 Speaker 1: murder which then resulted in the corpse that they found 952 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 1: in the river. That I see. That's I don't know 953 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,319 Speaker 1: why he wouldn't have been discovered at that point. Why 954 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, um, I think you wouldn't. They even like 955 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: publish photos of people that were drowning victims that you know, 956 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,919 Speaker 1: the unidentified bodies, so that people where they could place 957 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: them on view in some of the morgues there in town. 958 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: I know, um, because drowning was such a common thing 959 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: and these unknowns, they wanted to figure out who they 960 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: were and you know, where they came from. At least 961 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,600 Speaker 1: get them a proper burial, you know, allow their family 962 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: to take the remains and you know, do with them 963 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: what they want. But um, I don't know. It just 964 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: seems like it's it's a very possible scenario that yeah, 965 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: he didn't make it to Paris, and yeah he did 966 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: get off by some you know, cab driver. It's it's 967 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 1: like the least cinematic theory, to which I feel like 968 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 1: it's often like a way to try and judge the past, 969 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: like which which is the least interesting story? Um, then 970 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 1: you know that there's a chance that that's the way 971 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: to go. Sure, yeah, that's a very good point. If 972 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,320 Speaker 1: it makes a good story, you should be inherently skeptical, 973 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: all right, But I mean the bottom line is is 974 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: we don't know. We probably will never know. Um. So 975 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, obviously, listeners out there, you may have some 976 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: some theories you want to chime in, You want to 977 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: share your uh, your solution to this mystery. Well, here's 978 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 1: one thing I will say if you if you're one 979 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: of those people who likes to stick it to Edison, 980 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: and I can sympathize, I understand sticking it to Edison. Um, 981 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 1: you don't have to resort to saying I think he's 982 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: a murderer based on no physical evidence whatsoever, or you know, 983 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: or referring to like a fictional story about about a 984 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,720 Speaker 1: diary entry. But you can say he didn't get there first. 985 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: In fact, he didn't get there first in multiple ways, 986 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: like la Prince had the movie camera before Edison definitely, 987 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: and even Edison's own kinetograph and kinetoscope. You know, it 988 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 1: looks like the heavy lifting was done by Dixon, not 989 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: by the Edison. Yeah. At this point we're just arguing 990 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: over when the patent was filed. Yeah, I mean that's 991 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: all it really comes down to, and that and that, 992 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, then it begets the money, right, I mean, 993 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: that's the whole goal behind all of this really. For them, 994 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 1: it was that, you know, I think maybe la Prince 995 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: had more of an altruistic view of this that you know, 996 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,880 Speaker 1: he just simply wanted to make make it better, make 997 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: photography better by bringing motion to the screen in front 998 00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: of people. And maybe Edison I think was more money driven. Yeah, 999 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: I think that's the way it comes down, and fame 1000 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: and credit driven. Yeah exactly right now. Um, you know, 1001 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: of course that would have been great if that had 1002 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: come for the Prince as well, but it never did. Well, 1003 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 1: maybe it will now maybe posthumously, right, Yeah, Well, I 1004 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: don't gosh, I wonder how much how much of the 1005 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 1: family still exists, you know, are there any princes out 1006 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,360 Speaker 1: there still that that might benefit from something like that, 1007 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: or how how would they even benefit from something like that? 1008 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: Every film now made must give fifty of profits to 1009 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: his family. Yeah, they could charge per minute, right, Yeah, 1010 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: and I'm exorbitan and cost I'm sure you alright, Scott, Well, 1011 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show here to murder my Well, 1012 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,320 Speaker 1: I hope I didn't leave you with more questions and answers. 1013 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: But but that's not your fault. That's what history does. Yeah, 1014 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: I guess. So we're at least kind of reopening the 1015 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 1: books on this one and letting people know what happened. 1016 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 1: And um, I don't know. I like when you can 1017 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: kind of spark someone's interest in something and get them 1018 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: to search on their own and maybe kind of you know, 1019 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,840 Speaker 1: figure out alternate theories or you know, chime in with 1020 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: what they think may have happened. That's that's always fun 1021 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,760 Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, certainly everybody loves a good murder mystery. 1022 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 1: So if if we have, if this has helped make 1023 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,880 Speaker 1: the history of the motion picture more engaging for podcast 1024 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 1: listeners than that, I'm in favor of great I hope 1025 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,320 Speaker 1: I hope it has. I hope it has. And and 1026 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: thank you again for inviting me here. I really appreciate 1027 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,480 Speaker 1: the offer. And uh I'd love to sit in with 1028 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: you anytime. Absolutely, thanks so much for coming. So it's 1029 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: been fun. All right, Well, there you have it. Thanks 1030 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: once more to Scott Benjman for taking time out of 1031 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: his day, out of his research to join us on 1032 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: the show to discuss a little invention and indeed a 1033 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 1: little um potential murder, potential murder, potential suicide, potential runaway 1034 00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 1: and hide in Chicago potential. Were there any others do 1035 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 1: we have? Like a beast morph situation and it was 1036 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: potential hidden away by the family, And we didn't even 1037 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: get into like any just crazy speculator. We didn't get 1038 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: ato aliens, no abductions, no right off became Sasquat or Langoliers. 1039 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,399 Speaker 1: I mean, is it possible for Lango leers on a train? 1040 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: You don't need an aviation technology for that to happen. 1041 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, but uh at anyway, we cover the 1042 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 1: realistic ideas. That was the Jules Verne Novelt. Yeah, length 1043 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: Langoliers on a train? Alright? Uh? Thanks again to Scott 1044 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 1: coming on the show, and yeah, I think this this 1045 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,640 Speaker 1: is wrap it up for motion pictures or there gonna 1046 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: be more motion picture episodes. I think we got one 1047 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: more motion picture episode in us. All right, all right, 1048 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,880 Speaker 1: we'll stay tuned for that, stay tuned for future inventions. 1049 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:38,319 Speaker 1: We have some non photographic cinema cinematography episodes coming up. 1050 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: Uh that are that are in the works. We've been 1051 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: on the photographic history train and who knows if we'll 1052 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: ever get off. Yes, we'll reach the destination. We will 1053 00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: reach the destination. In the meantime, if you want to 1054 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Invention, check out what the 1055 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,399 Speaker 1: shows all about. Head on over to invention pod dot com. 1056 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,320 Speaker 1: That's the website. That's where you'll find all these episodes. 1057 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,480 Speaker 1: But you can also find us anywhere you find a podcast. 1058 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, go there, find us, subscribe 1059 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 1: to us, rate and review the show, give us a 1060 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: whole bunch of stars, say nice things about it about us. 1061 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: That's the best thing we can do to support the 1062 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,240 Speaker 1: show and help us moving forward. Huge thanks as always 1063 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer, Try Harrison. We've already thanked 1064 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: Scott A bunch of times on this one. If you 1065 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us directly to 1066 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,920 Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other, 1067 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,279 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 1068 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at invention 1069 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: pod dot com. Invention is production of I heart Radio. 1070 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio is the i 1071 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1072 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:46,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.