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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I would get these feelings

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Speaker 1: of being woozy. It was really unusual, and I was

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Speaker 1: going to the doctor to find out what was wrong.

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Speaker 1: They sent me to all kinds of specialist. It was

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Speaker 1: after Dennis was arrested, and probably about two weeks later,

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Speaker 1: it finally occurred to me in a I'm not having

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Speaker 1: any symptoms anymore. And then it occurred to me that

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Speaker 1: Dennis and I were the only two people at the

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Speaker 1: city who had access to a locked file cabinet for

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Speaker 1: tranquilizer for animals. And I truly believe that Dennis was

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Speaker 1: petting very tiny drops into my diapopsy. I sleep believe,

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Speaker 1: and I have no way of being able to prove

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Speaker 1: those I was a guinea pick for his ability to

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Speaker 1: use tranquilizer on other victims. You are hearing Mary Capps,

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Speaker 1: who worked with a serial killer for seven years, only

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Speaker 1: knowing him as a bad tempered boss, but she came

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Speaker 1: to realize she was lucky to be alive. We are

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Speaker 1: talking about b t K, bind, torture and kill serial

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Speaker 1: killer Dennis Raider, who was spoken from behind jail house walls.

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us b t K buying torture and kill

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Speaker 1: Dennis Raider. I knew something was up when I first

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Speaker 1: found out he was a dog catcher? Okay, who wants

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Speaker 1: to catch dogs to haul them off to be euthanized?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is that some kind of a freaky cause.

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Speaker 1: But other than that career choice, he seemed to be

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Speaker 1: normal to John Limley, investigative reporter. Who is BTK Dennis Raider?

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Speaker 1: And he the guy who terrorized which do ar Kansas?

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Speaker 1: For seventeen years? We know of ten brutal torture and

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Speaker 1: murder victims. Dennis Raider the oldest of four sons. Though

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Speaker 1: born in Pittsburgh, Kansas, he grew up in Wichita. He

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Speaker 1: went into the Air Force. He worked as an assembler

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Speaker 1: for the Coleman Company, that outdoor supply company. He began

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Speaker 1: to show signs that things were just not quite right

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Speaker 1: as he was growing up. His parents recalled seeing him

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Speaker 1: spending a lot of time alone. He was really obsessed

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Speaker 1: with death and the as so off and is the

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Speaker 1: case the death of small animals? Okay, right there, you're

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Speaker 1: it's a red bill of alarm. Joining me. John Limley

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. You can find this

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Speaker 1: in all other breaking crime injustice, music, crime online dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor William Moroney, stained medical examiner, joining us, author of

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Speaker 1: a brand new book on Amazon. American Narcan Veterans trial

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of LA. Troy Slayton. He'll come up with

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Speaker 1: the defense even for BTK. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho analysts,

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Speaker 1: joining us from LA. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Coal

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Speaker 1: Case Investigative Research Institute, and Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. When

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Speaker 1: you say tortured small animals, Doctor Bethany Marshall, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of alarms go off in my head. Explain absolutely, I

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Speaker 1: mean you hear budding sociopaths. What we know about sociopathy

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Speaker 1: is that there is a wish to relate to everybody

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Speaker 1: on the basis of power rather than affection. Sociopathy is

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Speaker 1: a disorder of detachment. So sociopaths do not attach to

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Speaker 1: other people in a loving way. They only want to

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Speaker 1: dominate on them. They have a parasitic relationship with them.

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Speaker 1: They want to take things from them, They want to

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Speaker 1: cheat on others, and so the behavioral pattern we see

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Speaker 1: in children and youth who are going to become sociopaths,

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Speaker 1: is that they begin to assert their dominance over animals,

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Speaker 1: often to the point of cruelty, of killing and maiming animals.

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Speaker 1: And so this is really the canary in the coal mine. Basically, clinically,

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Speaker 1: when you want to look back and see if somebody

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Speaker 1: a sociopath, you look at their relationships with animals in

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Speaker 1: their youth and childhood. Okay, those were a lot of words,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. I'm trying to process. Cheryl McCollum, break

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Speaker 1: it down in regular people talk. It's straight out of

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Speaker 1: the series Killer Handbook. Do you want to be a

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Speaker 1: serial killer? You're gonna start some fires, You're gonna wet

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Speaker 1: the bed past what we consider a normal age, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna torture small animals. We were talking about BTK, bind,

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Speaker 1: torture and kill. Take a listen to doctor Katherine Ramslin.

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Speaker 1: But Raider's father worked long hours. He didn't see him

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Speaker 1: a lot. He said. His mother like to read or

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Speaker 1: watch TV, so she didn't pay a lot of attention

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Speaker 1: to the kids, and she did let the grandparents take

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Speaker 1: over some of the Childreary. I got along real well

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Speaker 1: with Ben, but mom always listening, quite happy and lovely.

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Speaker 1: But I get tennis little a little bit to correct,

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Speaker 1: you get small. I'm doctor Katherine Ramsland. I'm a professor

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Speaker 1: of forensic psychology. I've had extensive correspondence with Dennis Raider,

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Speaker 1: the BTK serial killer, because I wrote a book with

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Speaker 1: Dennis Raider called Confession and of a serial Killer. When

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Speaker 1: he was young, his mother's ring got caught on a

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Speaker 1: couch spring and she couldn't get her hand out. She

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Speaker 1: apparently was terrified and told him to go get help,

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Speaker 1: and he felt the first stirrings of arousal over. This

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Speaker 1: was exciting to him to see a woman helpless, and

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Speaker 1: it was the beginning of his ideas about women that

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Speaker 1: what he wanted from them was to keep them trapped

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Speaker 1: and helpless and looking to him in terror. That became

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Speaker 1: imprinted in his mind and became the image he was

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Speaker 1: always after. That is a discussion. You were hearing the

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Speaker 1: voice of Katherine ramslind daughter Katherine Ramslin, who had dozens

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Speaker 1: and dozens and dozens of conversations correspondence with BTK writer,

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Speaker 1: insisting there is a quote dark side of him, the

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Speaker 1: demons inside me. You know what, Cheryl McCollum, Wendy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Troy Slayton, William Roney. How many times do

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Speaker 1: we have to see it? So often? When we see

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Speaker 1: horrific evil acts like those of BTK, Dennis Raider, buying, torture, kill,

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Speaker 1: they blame the devil. Oh, the devil made me do it.

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Speaker 1: It's the demon in me, Cheryl McCollum. This guy is

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Speaker 1: blame me. The quote demon inside of him, the devil.

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Speaker 1: You remember that old phrase, the devil made me do it.

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Speaker 1: That's what the person chuckles about. Oh, yes, it's complete garbage.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want to admit that it's him, so obviously

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Speaker 1: he's gonna say, hey, it was the devil. Because what

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Speaker 1: I did was so horrific and so horrible that people

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Speaker 1: hear about it. I've got to have an excuse ready,

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Speaker 1: and the old excuse there is the devil. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to what Jeffrey Davis, son of one of the

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Speaker 1: btk's victims, has to say. Sitting here before us is

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Speaker 1: a depraved predator, a rabid animal that has murdered people,

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Speaker 1: poisoned countless lives, and terrorize this community for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: all the while relishing every minute of it. As such,

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Speaker 1: there can be no justice harsh enough or revenge bitter

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Speaker 1: enough in this world, at least to cause the pain

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Speaker 1: and suffering which a social malignancy like this has coming. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: I have determined it for the sake of our innocent

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Speaker 1: victims and their loving families and friends with us here today.

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Speaker 1: For me, this will be a day of celebration, not retribution.

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Speaker 1: If my focus were hatred, I would stare you down

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Speaker 1: and call you a demon from hell who defiles this

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Speaker 1: chord at the very sight of its cancerous presence. If

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Speaker 1: I embraced bitterness, I would remind you that you are

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Speaker 1: nothing but a desperable, child, murdering, cowardly, impotent, eunuch and

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Speaker 1: pervert masquerading as a human being. If I were the

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Speaker 1: animal that you or, I would say that I relish

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Speaker 1: the thought of you being treated to the same despicable brutality,

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Speaker 1: terror and agony at the hands of your soon to

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Speaker 1: be fellow inmates that you relished inflicting on your defenseless victims.

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Speaker 1: If I were spiteful, I would remind you that it

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Speaker 1: is only fitting that a twisted, narcissistic psychopath obsessed with

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Speaker 1: public attention will soon have his world reduced to an isolated,

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Speaker 1: solitary existence in a square with sale crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace way With lived a normal life and he

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Speaker 1: decides to reappear. His ego was everything to him, and

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Speaker 1: he was the master manipulator. Dennis Raider went into taunt

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Speaker 1: the media and the police. He was mocking them. He

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Speaker 1: started writing the most chilling letters to us. He thanked

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Speaker 1: the news team forgetting the word out. Many of us

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Speaker 1: thought that he was contemplating another kill, and that could

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Speaker 1: be someone in power station. I didn't know whether I

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Speaker 1: was the next victim. You are hearing right there a

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Speaker 1: local use your porters recalling strange events surrounding the BTK investigation.

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Speaker 1: And I find it very very odd to Windy Patcheck,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, that he the BTK killer, bind Torture killed Dennish.

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Speaker 1: Raider wanted to quote get the word out. Most killers

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Speaker 1: want to keep it a secret. Well, you know, we

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Speaker 1: live in a day and age where unfortunately the notoriety

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Speaker 1: associated with some of these despicable actions is arousing to

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Speaker 1: some suspects and some defendants. We've seen that with shootings,

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Speaker 1: We've seen that with other types of killings. This man

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Speaker 1: apparently was at it for three decades, and so at

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Speaker 1: some point it's almost like he wanted credit for his work.

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Speaker 1: It's it's unthinkable, it's inhumane, but it's in this mindset,

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Speaker 1: and that's part of why doctor Ramslin wrote this book

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Speaker 1: with him. It's this mindset that we want to know

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Speaker 1: in case we see red flags, which which I unbelievably

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Speaker 1: nobody saw in this particular case. That's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason he wanted the story out to share. Aunt McCollum,

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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research, has to tea what

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Speaker 1: exactly happened. Let me let me go on one thing

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Speaker 1: real quick. Will you have a killer like Son of

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Speaker 1: Sam or Zodiac or BTK that gives themselves a nickname

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Speaker 1: that's a window into that person's ego. Of course he

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Speaker 1: wanted credit. There was no other person like this. When

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Speaker 1: he first decided he was gonna kill. He didn't choose

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Speaker 1: one victim. He chose a family that he was going

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Speaker 1: to strangle with his bare hands, and then proceeded to

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Speaker 1: tell us, you know what, I didn't know it was

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Speaker 1: going to take that much street serious free That's what

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Speaker 1: his issue was. Then he deceeded to get in better shape,

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Speaker 1: but he could keep killing. He gave himself a nickname.

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Speaker 1: He reached out to the media. He wanted the credit.

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Speaker 1: That's how you become famous, you know. To Troye Layton

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Speaker 1: or in defense, lawyer, how are you going to defend

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Speaker 1: this raider known as BTK bind torture kill actually wants

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Speaker 1: dressed up as one of his victims. I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: the photo now. It's of him wearing that looks like

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Speaker 1: to be kind of a dress, and he's tied himself

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Speaker 1: all up, and he's wearing blonde, freaky wig and he

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Speaker 1: looks like he's got on a dull mask with its

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Speaker 1: solid white with blackened out eyes and red blobs on

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Speaker 1: the cheeks for rouge. And interestingly, he has tied a

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Speaker 1: blue binding across his own mouth. I'm looking at the

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Speaker 1: picture right now, Troyce Layton defense. This is clearly not

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Speaker 1: somebody who is in control of all of their mental faculties, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: But aside from that, in a case like this, really

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Speaker 1: because he held down a job as a dog catcher

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Speaker 1: and was a leader in his local church. Uh a

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Speaker 1: former church leader who hid his killings from his wife

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Speaker 1: and two children. Um, what about Nancy. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean he's insane. The Constitution of the United States of

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Speaker 1: America protects everybody, and so I know you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: It's Wendy. They're in trouble when they start quoting the

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Speaker 1: Constitution because there's nothing in the law that's going to

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Speaker 1: protect this guy. Wendy. When they start the defense starts

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Speaker 1: quoting the Constitution, I know they're in deep doodoo. That's true.

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Speaker 1: You only start You only go there when you have

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Speaker 1: nothing else. And you know, because it's indefensable, it is indefensable.

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Speaker 1: He comes with the Constitution again, Come at me, man,

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Speaker 1: So I'm ready. What the defense attorneys need to do

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Speaker 1: here is try and save his life. And so what

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Speaker 1: we are looking to do is to have to save

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Speaker 1: his life where we're looking to take the death penalty

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Speaker 1: off the table. And so the entire purpose of the

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Speaker 1: defense is to not try and have him be found

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Speaker 1: not guilty, but it's to try and spare him from

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Speaker 1: the death penalty. You know, it's amazing how some people

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Speaker 1: would interpret this as God getting up in the middle

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Speaker 1: of it again, because he was actually tracked. He was

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Speaker 1: ultimately brought down by a floppy disk that led police

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Speaker 1: to trace it back to his church. Okay, so he

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Speaker 1: by Sunday mornings is this church goer, worshiping family man.

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Speaker 1: The whole time, he's out as a dog catcher, tracking,

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Speaker 1: scoping out victims in various neighborhoods all over town. To

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Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, tell me

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Speaker 1: about his crimes, Nancy, the really interesting thing is to

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Speaker 1: go back to the very first of those crimes and

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Speaker 1: to for a moment take this from the point of

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Speaker 1: view of the survivors and the victims. Charlie o'tara was

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Speaker 1: a fifteen year old boy. He had had a great

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Speaker 1: day on this January afternoon. He had aged. Okay, when

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Speaker 1: you say something like that, John, I know something bad

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Speaker 1: it's about to happen. When you say something he had

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Speaker 1: a great day, or like it was a sunny afternoon.

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Speaker 1: That's how you always do it, John Limley, and you

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Speaker 1: stabbed me. Go ahead a sunny Okay, go ahead. So

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Speaker 1: as Charlie o'tara is crossing the street to his family's

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Speaker 1: white bungalow, he sees that the garage door is open

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Speaker 1: and his mother's car is missing. Right there. He knows

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Speaker 1: something is not right, because his mother is always there

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Speaker 1: to greet him when he gets home from school. So

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Speaker 1: he walks around back trying to figure out what's going on.

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Speaker 1: The family dog then runs toward him across the snow.

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Speaker 1: No one ever let this dog, a German Shepherd mix, Lucky,

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Speaker 1: out of the house outside alone at least. Charlie walks

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Speaker 1: into the kitchen notices a half made peanut butter sandwich

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Speaker 1: sitting on the table besides an empty lunchbox. It seems

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Speaker 1: that his fourteen year old brother and thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: sister had returned home just minutes before him and Carmen

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Speaker 1: the girl comes running and says, come quick, Mom and

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Speaker 1: dad are playing a bad joke on us. It's anything

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Speaker 1: but a joke. From the doorway of his parents' bedroom,

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Speaker 1: Charlie sees his dad on the carpet by the bed.

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Speaker 1: He has been strangled with a belt. He's a handsome guy,

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Speaker 1: but his features were grotesquely swollen. His mother lay on

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Speaker 1: the mattress of some clothesline, clinched and cinched around her neck.

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Speaker 1: Both of them had been bound with thin cord at

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Speaker 1: the wrists and ankles, and at this point they think

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Speaker 1: that another brother and sister are still at school, but

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Speaker 1: they'll find out differently. Unfortunately, when you say that, it

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Speaker 1: just breaks my heart because it makes me think of

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Speaker 1: my own children coming in to find such a horrible thing.

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear from his own mouth. Dennis

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Speaker 1: Raider describing very unemotionally the Otero family his first victims. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you really talk to me about to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: giving the car and whatever money. I guess they didn't

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Speaker 1: have every much money. And yeah, there I realized that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was already I didn't have a mask

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Speaker 1: on everything. They already could id me and made him

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Speaker 1: made a decision to go ahead and shut him down,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Or strangling. I had never strangled anyone before,

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Speaker 1: so I really don't know how much pressure you had

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Speaker 1: to put on a person or how long it would take.

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Speaker 1: A strangled missus Old Tarrell and she went out or

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Speaker 1: passed out. I thought she was dead. She passed out,

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Speaker 1: and I strangled uh Josephine. She passed out or I

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Speaker 1: thought she was dead, and then I went over and

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Speaker 1: put uh and then put a bag on Junior's head.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Yeah, you only talked to

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Speaker 1: me about uh, you know, giving the car and whatever money.

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Speaker 1: I guess they didn't have every much money. And there

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Speaker 1: I realized that, you know, I was already I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a mask on everything. They already could id me

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Speaker 1: and made him made a decision to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: shut him down. I guess or strangling. I had never

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Speaker 1: strangled anyone before, so I really don't know how much

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Speaker 1: pressure you had to put on a person or how

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Speaker 1: long it would take A strangled missus l Tarrell and

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Speaker 1: she went out her passed out. I thought she was dead.

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Speaker 1: She passed out, and I strangled uh, Josephine. She passed

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Speaker 1: out or I thought she was dead, and then I

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Speaker 1: went over and put uh and then put a bag on.

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Speaker 1: Junior said, you are hearing BTK bind torture kills serial

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Speaker 1: killer Dennish, writer of The Dogcatcher, describing with very little emotion,

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Speaker 1: how he quote put him down, how he killed the

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Speaker 1: Otero family. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: Listened to what he says. Next, Josephine had walked back up.

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Speaker 1: I took her to the basement and eventually hungk her.

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Speaker 1: I had some sexual fantasies. That was after she was

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Speaker 1: hung went through the house kind of cleaned it up

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Speaker 1: to call the right handed early go from rover room

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Speaker 1: picked everything up. I think I took mister Tero's watch there.

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Speaker 1: I guess I took a radio. I'd forgot about that,

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Speaker 1: but apparently I took a radio. Did you hear what

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Speaker 1: he just said? He's talking about killing mister and missus Otero,

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Speaker 1: but then he goes on on to talk about killing

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Speaker 1: very dispassionately, Josephine Otero. Josephine. He hung Joseph. She was

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Speaker 1: just eleven years old. He hung her in the basement.

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Speaker 1: Josephine Otero to John Lemley, Crome online dot Com investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at photos right now as they haul out

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Speaker 1: on a gurnee, a little body covered with a blanket,

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Speaker 1: and just like the brother says, there's snow outside. It's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, a suburban home. They're walking up the path.

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Speaker 1: A body is being removed from the scene of btk's

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Speaker 1: first known murders, Joseph, Julie, Josephine, and Joseph the second,

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Speaker 1: all four of them found dead in their home. I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at them, and I'm looking at the little boy.

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Speaker 1: Joseph Otero. The second and little Josephine. How was Josephine found?

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Speaker 1: John Lemley Joey had been acceated with a plastic bag

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Speaker 1: in his bedroom. Josie's partially clad body was hanging from

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Speaker 1: a pipe in the basement. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining

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Speaker 1: me from LA He said he had a sexual fantasy.

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Speaker 1: He's lying. He lived out that sexual fantasy that little girl.

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Speaker 1: He lived it out, that little girl hanging in the basement. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: You know, we know that certain animals are born with

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Speaker 1: a predatory instinct, like say, a lion on the savannah

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Speaker 1: might eat a springbok and not think twice about it.

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Speaker 1: It's lunch. It's bad for the springbalk, but line doesn't

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Speaker 1: think much about it. That's what we call cold blooded.

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Speaker 1: And this is very rare amongst humans. But some human

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Speaker 1: beings are born with a very strong predatory instinct and killing.

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Speaker 1: It's just like an animal that's trying to get its lunch.

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Speaker 1: It's that inconsequential to them. And when I hear the

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Speaker 1: BTK killer in court and then the interviews say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had to apply a little more pressure. Oh you

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Speaker 1: know what, he tore the bag that was over his head,

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Speaker 1: so I put another bag over his head just to

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Speaker 1: make sure he was dead. I hear something called alexophymia,

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Speaker 1: and alexophymia is when a person uses the same words

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Speaker 1: you and I might use, but the meanings are very thin,

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Speaker 1: like put a bag over his head, hang her in

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Speaker 1: the basement, apply more pressure. These will be horrifying things

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Speaker 1: for us to say, but they have absolutely no meaning

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Speaker 1: to the BTK killer. And then you put that sexual

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Speaker 1: overlay on it. That For a human being who cannot feel,

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Speaker 1: there are no emotions about anything, this kind of associate

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Speaker 1: path is going to have a very difficult time with

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Speaker 1: sexual arousal because he's not going to be able to

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Speaker 1: feel sexual arousal in normal ways with a same age

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Speaker 1: sex partner. So what he's going to do is inflict

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Speaker 1: cruelty on his victims in order to enhance his sexual arousal.

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Speaker 1: And this is the distinction of the little literature between

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Speaker 1: sociopaths and psychopaths. Sociopaths are just mean, heartless they commit crimes.

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Speaker 1: With the psychopath you have the addition, the addition of

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Speaker 1: cruelty and the commission of the crimes too. Doctor William Maroney,

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Speaker 1: medical examiner joining us an author of a new book

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Speaker 1: on Amazon, American Narcan doctor Maroney. He speaks Danish writer

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Speaker 1: BTK speaks so dispassionately, so unemotionally in court it's like

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Speaker 1: he's reading a medical document about how he murdered his victims,

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Speaker 1: including hanging the nine year old little girl before having

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Speaker 1: a sex fantasy on her. Doctor morony, What does the

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Speaker 1: victim live through when they are strangled dead? Strangulation is

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Speaker 1: part of a much larger cole morbid condition called asphyxia.

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Speaker 1: Asphyxia is the lack of oxygen to the brain. Blood

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Speaker 1: brings oxygen to the brain. Asphyxia is caused by obviously strangulation,

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Speaker 1: carbonn oxide, drowning, drug overdose, any other kind of gas

359
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: that replaces the environment, respiratory disease, sleep apnea. But here

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Speaker 1: strangulation is the cause of asphyxia. So you slowly kind

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Speaker 1: of wander off into the fog and then you never

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Speaker 1: wake up. But in a strangulation there is the violent struggle.

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Speaker 1: You are physically being assaulted to shot down the blood

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Speaker 1: to your brain by the assailants. And while he's dispassionately

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Speaker 1: talking about this in court, it's a very active, full

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Speaker 1: contact negative experience. But suffocating people, asphyxiating people, they fall

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Speaker 1: away unleft. It's strangling, it's violent, and it's a very

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Speaker 1: full contact experience. Isn't true, doctor Moroni that when you

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Speaker 1: recover a strangulation victim's body, sometimes their neck is like

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Speaker 1: um three or four inches wide. Their whole neck has

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Speaker 1: been contorted and constricted so much it stays that way. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a big part of the neck that compresses. The

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Speaker 1: blood vessels are full of blood. Ordinarily they're pumping, and

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Speaker 1: you shut them down. You close them, so all the

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Speaker 1: blood that's in the head that has no oxygen is

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Speaker 1: stuck there, and all the fresh blood below the belt

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Speaker 1: or the rope or the grasp of the hands. So

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Speaker 1: it is basically plumbing, and you're shutting off the oxygen

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Speaker 1: that's carried by the blood. And if you strangle somebody

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Speaker 1: hard enough, you squeeze them down to the bones of

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Speaker 1: their throat and their spine. Listen to Beverly Plat. His

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Speaker 1: sister Nancy was murdered by Dennish writer, I've lost a friend, confidant.

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Speaker 1: My children will never have an aunt and I'll never

384
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 1: have another sister. Nancy's death is like a deep wound

385
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: that will never ever heal. As far as I'm concerned,

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00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider does not deserve to live. I want him

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Speaker 1: to suffer as much as he made his victims suffer.

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Speaker 1: But then when I think about that, and he is sick,

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00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: perverted way, he'd probably find that as some kind of

390
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: pleasure or reward. This man needs to be thrown in

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Speaker 1: a deep, dark hole and left to rot. He should

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00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: never ever see the light of day. And I have

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00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: some afterlife scenarios for him. On the day he dies,

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00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 1: Nancy and all of his victims will be waiting with

395
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Speaker 1: God and watching him as he burns in hell. Crime

396
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, her execution by that monster was.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's got to go on and live his

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00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: life thirty one years now, with raising a family and

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Speaker 1: children and career and everything. And you know, he snapped

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Speaker 1: out ten people's lives. Right now, he's not any remorse,

401
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: no remorse, no compassion. No, he had no mercy, and

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00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: I think that's what he ought to received. I just

403
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Speaker 1: I'll pray that he'll get the toughest sentence possible. I

404
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: just it's like Charlie was saying, he's being judged here now,

405
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Speaker 1: but eternity when he stands before the Lord for eternity,

406
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Speaker 1: for his judgment. If he's still in his sins that

407
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: he's committed here, he will spend it by himself in darkness.

408
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: And you know that's that's what I love to tell him.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing Kevin Bright, who survived the attack that killed

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Speaker 1: his sister. Can you know what I wish what he

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Speaker 1: said were true, that he would live out the rest

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Speaker 1: of his days before his death in remorse. But I

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00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: don't think he feels remorsefl about it. If you listen

414
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: to him in court, I mean, take a listen to

415
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider, who dubbed himself buying torture kill as he

416
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Speaker 1: describes how he selected his victims. I had many what

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00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: I called him projects. There were different people in the

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Speaker 1: town that I followed watch. Kathin Bright was one of

419
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: the next targets. I guess, as might would indicate, just

420
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: driving by one day and I saw her go in

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00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: the house with somebody else, and I thought that's a possibility.

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Speaker 1: There was many many places in the area College Hill

423
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: even they're all over which Tall if anyway, that's it

424
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: just was basically a selection process worked toward it. If

425
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: it didn't work, I just move on to something else.

426
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: But in the and then my kind of person was

427
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: stocking and scrolling. You go through the trolling stage and

428
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: then the stocking stage. She was in the stocking stage

429
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: when this happened. That's a possibility. To doctor Bethany, Marshall's

430
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: least out of la He saw the woman just walking

431
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: in that he's talking about Katherine Bryant. You just heard

432
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: her brother Kevin speaking and he looked at you, guys, Well,

433
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: that's possibility. I mean, it's just like they have a

434
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: total different mind. Then we have that. Yes, that is

435
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: a possibility, Nancy. I used to have a cat who

436
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: would bring me all kinds of little trophies and treasures.

437
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: I've come home, there'd be a mouse on the front doorstep,

438
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: or there'd be a lizard, and invariably the cat would

439
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: want toss it around proudly. That cat looked so proud

440
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: whenever it caught killed something and brought it to me.

441
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: And I think about this Dennis Raider as an animal,

442
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: one of these rare people whose predatory instinct is on overdrive.

443
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: And he's sitting in the court like a cat passing

444
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: a little mouse around saying oh, I did this, and

445
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: then I did that, and he is happy about it.

446
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: And you have the overlayer of the fact that he's

447
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: a human. He's not a cat, he's not a tiger.

448
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: This is a human being. And what do you get

449
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: in a human being. You get something that we called grandiosity,

450
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: which is a core feature of sociopathy. He's grandios. He's

451
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: having a day in court now he thinks he's actually

452
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: like the venerated professor who's teaching everybody what it means

453
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: to be a serial killer. Well, Step one, ladies and gentlemen,

454
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: you drive down the street. Step two, you identify your victim.

455
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: Step three and maybe not this one. I think I'll

456
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: go look for another one. Can you hear how he

457
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: feels he's teaching the people in the court. This is

458
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: like a very sick, twisted version of grandiosity, and we've

459
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: seen this in every sociopath we've covered on your show. Wendy,

460
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: patcheck with me. A veteran California prosecutor that has handled many,

461
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: many homicide prosecutions. Wendy, how did BTK Dinnish writer actually

462
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: implement execute his crimes? You know, the short answer is

463
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: easily because he was somebody that wasn't a suspect. I mean,

464
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: he had some status in his community. He had a job,

465
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: he was a churchgoer, he had a family, Nancy, think

466
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: about that. So when you have somebody like this that

467
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 1: seems relatively unassuming and unsuspicious, it is easy for him

468
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: to go out and find victims, as in his own words,

469
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: troll them, then stock them, attack them, then kill them

470
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: in a number of different ways as we've seen over

471
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: the years. So he was apparently able to move about

472
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: freely without drawing suspicion, and that makes him one of

473
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: the scariest and one of the most dangerous serial killers.

474
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: But I hate to say it, Nancy, it follows the

475
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: pattern of other killers just like him that lead apparently

476
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: normal lives on the outside. I don't really understand the

477
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: phenomena of him writing letters to taunt the public through

478
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: the local news media and Troy Slayton. His methodical way

479
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: of picking his victims and executing these crimes, sneaking into

480
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: their house under different pretenses like being a repairman or

481
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: somebody to check the gas made or whatever. His pretext

482
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: was showed a lot of forethought, and he has so

483
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: many victims how do you even fashion a defense for that. Well,

484
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: it's certainly not easy, and I think that the defense

485
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: team here had certainly a tough job, and so it

486
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: was focused, like I've like I've mentioned before, on purely

487
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: trying to convince prosecutors that the pain of going through

488
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: a protracted litigation would would just cause more damage to

489
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: the victims, that it would be better for the victims

490
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: to be able to give their impact statements to the court,

491
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: which they did, and for the State of Kansas to

492
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: not seek to execute And as that's as that's not

493
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: going to bring any of the tragic victims back to life.

494
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that how you justify it, Troy, that

495
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: a death penalty won't bring the victims back. I mean,

496
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: I've only known so far of one person brought back

497
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: from the dead. I mean, unless you can't Lazarus. But

498
00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm not expecting a miracle. Of course, he's not gonna

499
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: were not. You can't bring the victims back, That's the

500
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: whole point, Chice Layton Nancy. Yes, the defense attorney's job

501
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: here was to prevent another killing the defendant himself, okay,

502
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: And and they succeeded. And instead he will spend his

503
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: life in prison. You know what you speak of it

504
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: like you're analyzing a problem in an algebra book. Listen

505
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 1: to writer. Actually on that one, she was completely random.

506
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: There was actually someone across from the Dylans was potential target.

507
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: It was called Project Green. I think I had project numbers.

508
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: That's a signed to it, and that PTICL day I

509
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: drove the Dylons parked in the parking lot, watched this

510
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: particular residence and then got out the car and walked

511
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: over to it. It's probably the police support the address.

512
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: I don't remember the dress. Now knock nobody. Nobody answered it.

513
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: So I was all keyed up. So I guess started

514
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: going through the neighborhood. I'veen into the neighborhood before. I

515
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: kind of knew a little little the layout of the neighborhood.

516
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: I've been to the back alley's people live. You know

517
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: to you Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

518
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: He kept writing the TV station Ka kak E and Wichita,

519
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: claiming responsibility for all the murders and suggesting names for himself,

520
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: including bt K, demanding media attention until they finally announced

521
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: publicly that Wichita had a serial killer. He even made

522
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: a poem which was stealing the lyrics to an old

523
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: folk song, and he called it O Death to Nancy. Again,

524
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: his ego played such a role in these cons It

525
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: again reminds me of Son of Sam. You know, he

526
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: wrote poetry Zodiac. He contacts. When the letters don't do it,

527
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: he calls. And remember how sinister he tried to be.

528
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: This is Zodiac, you know what I mean. They've given

529
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: themselves nicknames. They're not just playing out these fantasies, Nancy.

530
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: They're living. Now. Let me just say these names out loud.

531
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: Joseph Otero thirty eight, Julie Otero thirty three, Joseph Atero Junior,

532
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: age nine, Josephine Otero eleven, Katherine Bright twenty one, Shirley

533
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: Van twenty four, Nancy Fox twenty five, Marine Hedge fifty three,

534
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Vicky Wiggieri twenty eight, Dolores Davis sixty two. That we

535
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: know of, and I think somewhere out there in the

536
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: universe all of them agree with me. Dennis Rador rot

537
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: in Hell, Nancy Grace's crime stories, signing off, goodbye friend,