WEBVTT - I'm Short On Vim 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.800 Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the 0:00:05.820 --> 0:00:10.120 George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:11.580 Armstrong and Getty. 0:00:11.780 --> 0:00:17.349 And now, here's Armstrong and Getty. 0:00:18.070 --> 0:00:27.710 The problem with the war on Canada is that we 0:00:27.830 --> 0:00:31.540 don't hate Canada to begin with. And so they've come 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.190 up with, the administration has some new posters to get 0:00:34.250 --> 0:00:36.310 us to be angry enough. 0:00:36.290 --> 0:00:37.110 At the Canadians. 0:00:37.150 --> 0:00:37.930 Would you like to. 0:00:37.830 --> 0:00:38.490 See some of it? 0:00:38.530 --> 0:00:40.870 I thought you would. 0:00:40.909 --> 0:00:48.080 Canadian geese crashing our planes into the Hudson since 2009. Nickelback, 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:58.410 never forget who did this to us. Canadian bacon is ham. 0:00:58.490 --> 0:01:04.440 If they'll lie about this, what won't they lie about? 0:01:04.459 --> 0:01:08.120 Canadians are so nice. We're so nice about stealing Katy Perry. 0:01:11.100 --> 0:01:14.080 That's pretty good, the Canadian bacon. It's more a service 0:01:14.140 --> 0:01:17.559 than a theft. The lie about that, the lie about anything. 0:01:18.180 --> 0:01:24.210 Wartime propaganda posters against Canada. Oh boy, these are odd times. 0:01:24.430 --> 0:01:24.610 Mm-hmm. 0:01:25.220 --> 0:01:27.130 So the fabulous James Lindsay was writing the other day 0:01:27.310 --> 0:01:30.370 about a number of articles that have appeared in the 0:01:30.410 --> 0:01:34.750 press about lack of affordability in Gen Z, talking about 0:01:34.810 --> 0:01:36.850 how I can't afford a burrito or I can't afford 0:01:36.870 --> 0:01:38.170 to go out on a date and blah, blah, blah. 0:01:39.310 --> 0:01:42.270 And he says if you want to talk about affordability 0:01:42.310 --> 0:01:44.850 for real or if you want to wax psychotic about debt, 0:01:44.870 --> 0:01:47.070 you have to talk about the real anchor issue, which 0:01:47.130 --> 0:01:49.660 is student loan debt. And to do this, you have 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.380 to talk about the absolute failure of government manipulation of 0:01:52.420 --> 0:01:55.580 the higher education market and how our universities did not 0:01:55.620 --> 0:01:59.440 just transform ideologically, but sold out generations because of sweet, 0:01:59.540 --> 0:02:03.970 sweet government-backed monies. And he says the biggest important change 0:02:03.980 --> 0:02:05.730 in this story is that in the 90s, under Bill 0:02:05.770 --> 0:02:08.170 Clinton's tenure, and by the way, it's worth pointing out, 0:02:08.510 --> 0:02:10.330 so much of this is the road to hell being 0:02:10.350 --> 0:02:14.869 paved with good intentions. Because when people say, hey, there's 0:02:14.930 --> 0:02:17.070 a problem with it, you've heard that saying a million times, 0:02:17.110 --> 0:02:19.299 but have you ever really thought about it? Because when 0:02:19.340 --> 0:02:21.970 people say, Hey, Hey, there's a problem with what you're doing. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.239 You reply, hey, my intentions are great. What we're doing 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.700 here is good and important. And it neutralizes criticism. And 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.920 that's how you get to hell. Anyway, 90s under Bill Clinton, 0:02:35.020 --> 0:02:37.880 the federal government decided to underwrite federal student loans in 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:39.880 order to get a lot more people to go to college, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.140 which opened a gigantic can of worms. The direct effect 0:02:43.180 --> 0:02:46.220 of this policy was that while private lenders would originate 0:02:46.260 --> 0:02:49.030 the loans, the federal government would assume their risk of losses. 0:02:50.350 --> 0:02:53.510 And if you know anything about banking, risk of loss 0:02:53.630 --> 0:02:58.790 is the primary incentive lenders have for not making bad loans. 0:02:59.610 --> 0:03:02.250 So the government, federal government, stepped in and removed that 0:03:02.650 --> 0:03:05.780 rather important market incentive. It's exactly the same thing that 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.899 happened prior to the great crash of 07-08 because they 0:03:10.060 --> 0:03:14.720 ordered the banks to lend anybody money that they had 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.760 to to achieve certain racial quotas. 0:03:17.139 --> 0:03:17.359 Anyway. 0:03:18.980 --> 0:03:21.140 So prior to this, you had to convince the bank 0:03:21.180 --> 0:03:23.619 that your education was actually a solid investment in your 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:28.100 future economically, not spiritually, okay? And you might have to 0:03:28.139 --> 0:03:30.160 convince them that you're likely to be a good student 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.960 choosing a solid major. You'd make enough money to pay 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.220 back the loan and then just fill out the paperwork. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.660 But now... They've removed the disincentives. So, as he says, 0:03:42.690 --> 0:03:45.310 what exactly is this can of worms they opened? Something 0:03:45.330 --> 0:03:48.030 like the total destruction of our society in 30 years 0:03:48.090 --> 0:03:50.830 or thereabouts. It's actually difficult to know where to start, 0:03:50.850 --> 0:03:53.920 but the financial situation is probably the easiest one. What 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.360 actually happened is that a lot more people intended to 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.260 go to college, and colleges had to, or at least 0:03:59.300 --> 0:04:02.550 were incentivized to, make expansions to absorb them. That sounds 0:04:02.610 --> 0:04:04.830 reasonable enough, but it turns out to have been a disaster. 0:04:05.350 --> 0:04:06.950 Lurking in the background of this problem, by the way, 0:04:06.990 --> 0:04:10.010 is that by the 1990s, we'd already seen a dramatic 0:04:10.150 --> 0:04:13.940 leftward shift of the university as an institution. There are 0:04:14.060 --> 0:04:18.120 lots of dumb leftist majors that amount to anti-Americanism, critical 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:19.640 theory of a dozen stripes or so. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.760 And when you said expansion, I wondered, like, how many 0:04:21.980 --> 0:04:25.670 majors got added at this time that never existed before 0:04:25.730 --> 0:04:27.610 that are just worthless? 0:04:28.540 --> 0:04:31.200 Well, because you had, and you're absolutely right, because you 0:04:31.260 --> 0:04:34.880 had thousands now, hundreds of millions of students waving their 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.340 federal money around saying, I'm no good in engineering or 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.340 business or whatever, and even liberal arts is a bit 0:04:41.420 --> 0:04:45.810 much for me. How about women's studies or ethnic studies 0:04:45.930 --> 0:04:50.089 or something like that? Softball leftist majors. And he points 0:04:50.190 --> 0:04:54.429 out that the dozen or so critical theory majors expanded 0:04:54.470 --> 0:04:58.290 to many, many more and captured especially the colleges of education, 0:04:58.690 --> 0:05:00.890 which is especially bad because that's where teachers come from. 0:05:01.310 --> 0:05:04.080 But anyway, he mentions that absorbing these students required a 0:05:04.100 --> 0:05:07.260 few things. Some were infrastructure changes. You need to be 0:05:07.300 --> 0:05:09.300 able to house them, sit them in classrooms, et cetera. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.349 Some were administrative changes. They needed management, um, A lot 0:05:14.390 --> 0:05:15.950 of the kids weren't cut out to major in the 0:05:15.990 --> 0:05:20.430 hard stuff, and so leftist activist majors started to be created, 0:05:20.490 --> 0:05:23.450 fill up, and expand. Remember, no one has to prove 0:05:23.490 --> 0:05:25.910 to the lender that they're majoring in something with good 0:05:25.970 --> 0:05:29.210 career prospects anymore to get the money. So the tuition 0:05:29.250 --> 0:05:32.280 rates started to climb massively, mostly as a result of 0:05:32.300 --> 0:05:35.719 the first two changes, and far more infrastructure than administrations. 0:05:36.130 --> 0:05:39.630 So the colleges were catering primarily to 17-year-olds who were 0:05:39.650 --> 0:05:43.230 picking a school and trying to retain upward to maybe 22-year-olds. 0:05:43.570 --> 0:05:46.670 This is not an age demographic, especially by the later 90s, 0:05:46.930 --> 0:05:50.510 that was famously known for choosing colleges based on academic priorities, 0:05:50.770 --> 0:05:54.680 career priorities, etc. In fact, they mostly select colleges based 0:05:54.740 --> 0:05:58.720 on anything but academics and future employability, especially when the 0:05:58.779 --> 0:06:04.220 incoming base is expanded to include potentially roughly everyone. So 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:05.080 they wanted football. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:05.700 Fun. 0:06:06.130 --> 0:06:10.430 Nice dorms, student services, gyms, modernized facilities, etc. And those 0:06:10.470 --> 0:06:13.170 features became the primary elements by which colleges started to 0:06:13.230 --> 0:06:16.489 compete with each other for attracting and keeping students. 0:06:17.210 --> 0:06:19.210 And you can see where that goes. That is a 0:06:19.210 --> 0:06:22.000 rich society, man. That is one rich society where you've 0:06:22.010 --> 0:06:28.100 got a very large segment of the population, the most 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.520 affluent generally, that sends their kid off to a four-year... 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.280 Little kind of vacation under the guise of college where 0:06:37.300 --> 0:06:39.599 a lot of it is just because we've done the 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:46.050 stats before. Barely going to class, barely doing homework. Hanging 0:06:46.089 --> 0:06:48.750 out with your friends, having a good time for four years. 0:06:49.850 --> 0:06:51.990 I mean, you're a pretty cush society if you can 0:06:52.010 --> 0:06:55.950 do that with your young people from 18 to 22. 0:06:55.950 --> 0:06:58.010 And Mr. Lindsay tips his cap to the fact that 0:06:58.029 --> 0:06:59.910 a lot of this was very, very good intentions, the 0:06:59.930 --> 0:07:03.010 baby boomer generation, the idea that if you go to college, 0:07:03.050 --> 0:07:05.070 you can improve your life and have a better job 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.520 and a better life than your parents did, etc. First 0:07:07.540 --> 0:07:09.240 generation to go to school, that sort of thing is 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.340 very honorable and good. But then he points out, combined 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.740 with the federal money, many of them stumbled into college 0:07:14.780 --> 0:07:16.860 into their favorite majors, some with an eye on that 0:07:16.980 --> 0:07:19.680 good job they wanted to go to college to get, 0:07:20.020 --> 0:07:22.260 only to find out that math is really hard, and 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.220 there's still a college degree at the end of the 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.320 new women's studies department. Others majored in something productive enough, 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.880 but in total ignorance of the actual job market on 0:07:30.900 --> 0:07:33.000 the other side. And he gives a bunch of examples 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.440 of that sort of thing. In servicing these natural, but 0:07:36.540 --> 0:07:40.950 ultimately adolescent... mismatched priorities. What in the world does that sound? 0:07:41.450 --> 0:07:45.330 What is that, Michael? Whose studio is that in? Yeah, 0:07:45.350 --> 0:07:46.450 that's in my studio. 0:07:46.770 --> 0:07:47.830 Is that a smoke alarm? 0:07:48.550 --> 0:07:49.250 I don't know. 0:07:50.210 --> 0:07:52.390 What do you think that is, Kenny? That's a smoke alarm. 0:07:53.070 --> 0:07:53.370 It is? 0:07:53.730 --> 0:07:54.030 Yeah. 0:07:54.490 --> 0:07:57.710 Or a carbon monoxide. Why does your smoke alarm sound 0:07:57.740 --> 0:07:58.830 like somebody playing a. 0:07:58.830 --> 0:08:02.200 It's a carbon monoxide alarm. Yeah. Probably going to die soon. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:02.760 Okay. 0:08:02.780 --> 0:08:08.250 Oh, God, that's... Perhaps I'll deal with that and we'll 0:08:08.290 --> 0:08:10.810 return after a brief commercial break, as it's going to 0:08:10.830 --> 0:08:12.710 make everybody insane, including me. 0:08:13.030 --> 0:08:15.130 How do you end up with too much carbon monoxide? 0:08:15.650 --> 0:08:16.880 I gotta go deal with it. 0:08:17.300 --> 0:08:17.650 I'll be back. 0:08:18.340 --> 0:08:20.800 I don't want to know about this. He's breeding cats 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.680 or something. Something's going on in there. He's got marmots. 0:08:24.860 --> 0:08:29.760 And rabies donkeys. Anyway, we will get to that stuff. 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.400 I ought to throw this in real quick before we 0:08:31.420 --> 0:08:31.960 take a break. 0:08:32.020 --> 0:08:32.179 So. 0:08:34.290 --> 0:08:40.340 The deliberations in the Lindsay Clancy trial... they said that 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.500 they can't come to a verdict. And the judge said, 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:43.939 you got to get back in there and get back 0:08:43.980 --> 0:08:46.199 to work. But they said they're unable to reach unanimous verdict. 0:08:46.220 --> 0:08:48.400 Well, isn't that just a hung jury? I mean, if 0:08:48.420 --> 0:08:50.340 they can't come to a verdict, you can't make them. 0:08:51.500 --> 0:08:53.590 Sometimes I, you know, you know way more about this 0:08:53.610 --> 0:08:55.010 than I do because your dad was a judge, but 0:08:55.390 --> 0:08:57.290 I don't know how many times you can say work 0:08:57.309 --> 0:08:59.569 harder before they say, look, we're working as hard as 0:08:59.610 --> 0:09:02.370 we can. We can't. So we do actually have a 0:09:02.429 --> 0:09:08.110 quote from, I think her lawyer coming up. He was 0:09:08.210 --> 0:09:11.280 asked about this and what this might mean, so we'll 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:12.819 get that on the air also. First, I want to 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.140 tell you about this. 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So 0:10:21.580 --> 0:10:23.760 what does it mean that the jury can't come to 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.460 a conclusion? Well, they asked one of the lawyers involved, 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.050 and he gave his answer. for what that's worth, among 0:10:30.090 --> 0:10:32.170 other things on the way. And we'll figure out if 0:10:32.230 --> 0:10:35.010 Joe has died from carbon monoxide poisoning. Coming up next. 0:10:36.650 --> 0:10:40.600 Armstrong and Getty. 0:10:40.620 --> 0:10:42.460 What would a hung jury mean for Lindsay? 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.120 Try it again. Jim Cruise will never drop it, that's 0:10:46.140 --> 0:10:50.460 for sure. How would she be in trial again? How 0:10:50.780 --> 0:10:53.040 would she be in court, emotionally? 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:54.520 How would it affect her? 0:10:54.780 --> 0:10:55.290 How would you be? 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.500 Counsel, would you do the trial again if it's a 0:10:58.540 --> 0:11:03.280 hung jury? Anyway, that was the lawyer being asked, the 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:08.640 lawyer for the mom who killed her kids, being asked 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.560 about this whole, the jury can't come to a deliberation, 0:11:11.580 --> 0:11:12.180 they told the judge. 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:13.620 The judge said, get back in there and get to work. 0:11:14.540 --> 0:11:17.740 Let's turn to our legal correspondent. He was a judge 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.380 in the mean streets of Alameda County, Calunicornia, for years, 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.500 now retired, Larry Goodman. Judge Larry, how are you, sir? 0:11:25.540 --> 0:11:26.060 Doing well. 0:11:26.830 --> 0:11:29.270 Okay, so the jury comes back and says, we can't. 0:11:29.410 --> 0:11:33.090 He's an idiot. They're idiots. No, we can't agree. No verdict. 0:11:33.150 --> 0:11:34.670 And the judge says, get back in there. 0:11:35.190 --> 0:11:35.430 Wow. 0:11:35.670 --> 0:11:36.290 How does that work? 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.240 Sometimes you'll fashion an instruction. They used to have what 0:11:44.260 --> 0:11:47.460 they called an Allen instruction, but they don't use that anymore. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.590 Very few judges use it. And you tell them, you know, 0:11:50.620 --> 0:11:52.329 we spent a lot of time. You need to go 0:11:52.350 --> 0:11:55.810 through each piece of evidence, each witness, go back and 0:11:55.850 --> 0:11:58.490 see if you can't reach, you know, reach your verdict. And, 0:11:58.850 --> 0:12:01.230 you know, you never know whether it's like one person 0:12:01.290 --> 0:12:04.260 that's just refusing to vote a certain way or whether 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.260 it's divided equally, so you just send them back and 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:08.440 hope for the best. 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.359 So they wouldn't tell the judge that? When you're a judge, 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.150 you have no idea what's going on with the jury, 0:12:13.170 --> 0:12:17.449 so you wouldn't know if it's one knucklehead or if 0:12:17.530 --> 0:12:17.959 it's a 6'6? 0:12:20.250 --> 0:12:24.670 Generally, you don't know. Sometimes you'll ask them without saying 0:12:24.730 --> 0:12:28.350 which way it is, how are you divided? Like nine 0:12:28.390 --> 0:12:31.290 to three or whatever, but you can't say nine for guilty, 0:12:31.330 --> 0:12:34.790 three for not guilty. Sometimes you'll say, how are you divided? 0:12:35.290 --> 0:12:38.210 And if they say like 11 to one, then you 0:12:38.230 --> 0:12:41.949 start thinking there's this one person and then Who knows? 0:12:42.010 --> 0:12:44.630 Then four-person sentence, you know, because we have this one 0:12:44.670 --> 0:12:47.530 person that's not deliberating in good faith, and that creates 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.100 a whole other cantaloupe. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.240 Now, I jack him a dope. Keep that in mind. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.939 What's a hung jury? What's a hung jury compared to 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:55.420 what this is? 0:12:56.940 --> 0:12:59.380 Well, a hung jury is when they actually come out 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.010 and say there is no way that we can reach 0:13:02.070 --> 0:13:05.390 a verdict. We are hung, and then the judge declares 0:13:05.429 --> 0:13:05.990 a mistrial. 0:13:06.670 --> 0:13:07.950 So they're on their way to that. 0:13:08.110 --> 0:13:10.309 They're hung now. It's just not official yet. 0:13:11.330 --> 0:13:16.090 And then how many times can they say we can't 0:13:16.110 --> 0:13:18.109 come to a conclusion and you can say, get back 0:13:18.190 --> 0:13:20.350 in there and work, try harder? I mean, is there 0:13:20.370 --> 0:13:20.949 a limit? 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.280 No, there isn't really. I mean, at some point you 0:13:24.300 --> 0:13:28.620 start creating your own chaos by making people go back 0:13:28.700 --> 0:13:31.780 and try to do the impossible, at least what's impossible 0:13:31.820 --> 0:13:32.460 in their mind. 0:13:32.580 --> 0:13:34.600 So, you know, a. 0:13:34.780 --> 0:13:38.630 Couple of times maybe. And you can tell... by looking 0:13:38.650 --> 0:13:41.650 at the jury, if it's like one or two people, 0:13:41.929 --> 0:13:43.950 when they come back in, the other jurors will start 0:13:43.990 --> 0:13:45.670 looking at them and stuff, and you can kind of 0:13:45.990 --> 0:13:49.460 read the room. But you just don't know. 0:13:49.770 --> 0:13:53.020 Well, we got this report from Aaron Katursky, ABC News, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.280 saying some jurors looked weary. So they're probably looking at 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.939 pictures of strangled little kids, right? I mean, that would 0:14:00.980 --> 0:14:01.540 wear on you. 0:14:02.630 --> 0:14:04.589 Well, yeah, and plus they've been sitting there for a 0:14:04.610 --> 0:14:08.319 long time already looking at the pictures of strangled children 0:14:08.380 --> 0:14:10.780 and hearing all the details, and they go into a 0:14:11.300 --> 0:14:14.480 small room with just the 12 of them and rehash 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.479 the thing all over again. Let me jump in, Larry. 0:14:18.500 --> 0:14:21.670 You were the judge. I was on several juries. It 0:14:21.790 --> 0:14:26.510 is a long, frustrating, circular discussion for hours and hours 0:14:26.650 --> 0:14:29.150 and hours. That's why they look fatigued, because you want 0:14:29.170 --> 0:14:31.630 to be anywhere else but there after a little while. 0:14:32.700 --> 0:14:34.280 They didn't want to be there in the first place, 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.860 most of them. So, yeah, you're right. So, yeah, it is. 0:14:37.940 --> 0:14:41.380 I mean, you go around the table and everybody expresses, 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.730 and it depends on who the foreperson is and how 0:14:44.870 --> 0:14:48.590 organized or how respected they are by the other jurors. 0:14:49.210 --> 0:14:52.550 It's just a great big black hole that you don't 0:14:52.590 --> 0:14:55.630 really know what goes on in there. It's like making sausage. 0:14:55.670 --> 0:14:57.580 You don't want to know how it comes out or 0:14:57.620 --> 0:15:00.780 what goes into the ingredients as opposed to the final result. 0:15:01.870 --> 0:15:05.190 I'm not surprised that this is going on with this trial. 0:15:05.940 --> 0:15:06.880 What's your thoughts on that? 0:15:08.140 --> 0:15:12.020 I'm not surprised at all. I mean, considering... The topic 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.100 of the trial, the three dead children, all the mental 0:15:16.140 --> 0:15:18.870 health issues and stuff, it would be very tough to 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.350 get 12 people to say, yeah, this was premeditated first-degree murder. 0:15:22.850 --> 0:15:25.710 It's going to be at a very high bar. 0:15:25.950 --> 0:15:30.090 Well, even without that, I mean, unless Fox misled me 0:15:30.130 --> 0:15:31.950 this morning, I was watching that, and they were talking 0:15:31.970 --> 0:15:36.330 about all the different conclusions they could come to. Well, 0:15:36.750 --> 0:15:38.390 I mean, if it was just she's guilty of murder 0:15:38.450 --> 0:15:41.180 or not, Okay, that's an argument. But if you've got 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:46.980 to get into manslaughter versus second degree versus guilty but 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.730 mentally ill, I mean, now you're cutting it a lot thinner. 0:15:50.830 --> 0:15:52.290 I can see how it would be very difficult. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.690 Well, that may be partially a judicially created problem. I 0:15:57.730 --> 0:16:00.510 still don't understand how you get to manslaughter with this case. 0:16:00.890 --> 0:16:03.360 And by throwing that instruction in there and making that 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.660 a possible verdict, that may have caused even more problems 0:16:06.700 --> 0:16:09.310 because there may be people that don't want to really 0:16:09.410 --> 0:16:12.670 find her. guilty of first or second or first degree 0:16:12.710 --> 0:16:15.130 murder maybe second they don't want to go to a 0:16:15.610 --> 0:16:18.430 institution so they're trying to hang their hat on manslaughter 0:16:18.750 --> 0:16:21.170 and other jurors are probably going like how do you 0:16:21.210 --> 0:16:23.790 even get there so that may have been a problem 0:16:23.830 --> 0:16:24.750 he created. 0:16:24.990 --> 0:16:27.800 Right so you could easily have three different camps in 0:16:27.820 --> 0:16:30.820 the jury room trying to convince others to come in 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.000 their direction yeah good luck with that well. 0:16:33.390 --> 0:16:37.030 I mean, theoretically, four, first degree, second degree manslaughter, not 0:16:37.070 --> 0:16:40.210 guilty and not guilty by not guilty by reason of insanity. 0:16:40.250 --> 0:16:42.070 I mean, you can go the whole gamut. 0:16:42.190 --> 0:16:42.430 Yes. 0:16:42.610 --> 0:16:45.590 Five different options, according to Fox and what you just said. 0:16:45.670 --> 0:16:47.510 And yeah, I could see how you could get into 0:16:47.550 --> 0:16:52.290 some pretty intricate discussions of what crosses the line from 0:16:52.820 --> 0:16:54.290 level two to level three or whatever. 0:16:54.740 --> 0:16:55.040 Yeah. 0:16:55.260 --> 0:16:55.540 Wow. 0:16:55.580 --> 0:16:55.700 Wow. 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:56.540 All right. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.640 They don't want to walk out. I'm sure the jury 0:16:58.660 --> 0:17:02.140 is feeling pressure of trying to do something. And that 0:17:02.180 --> 0:17:03.160 just makes it more tense. 0:17:04.260 --> 0:17:08.379 Yeah. Larry Goodman, retired judge for the Superior Court, Alameda County, California. Larry, 0:17:08.420 --> 0:17:10.040 great to talk to you again. Thanks for the insights. 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:11.160 Sure. 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:11.860 You guys take care. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:12.680 Thanks. 0:17:12.980 --> 0:17:13.220 Yeah. 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.280 There's just there are too many variables in that math 0:17:16.340 --> 0:17:18.200 equation for a jury. That's all right. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.639 I mean, when you got that, was OJ just a 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.670 straight up or down murder or not? I don't think so. 0:17:23.910 --> 0:17:27.170 But anyway, if you got that, then you might have 0:17:27.230 --> 0:17:29.080 one of the scenarios like you're presenting where you just 0:17:29.100 --> 0:17:34.020 got one holdout knucklehead who can't deal with facts or something. 0:17:34.340 --> 0:17:37.060 But man, if you got five different choices, I could 0:17:37.100 --> 0:17:40.659 see getting into some serious conversations with some smart people 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.920 who can deal with facts where it's, no, I think 0:17:42.980 --> 0:17:45.640 this is second degree this. No, I think it's blah, blah, blah. 0:17:45.660 --> 0:17:49.020 I mean, that's some, you're slicing it a lot thinner. 0:17:49.740 --> 0:17:50.200 Oh, yeah. 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.430 Wow, wow, wow. Terrible. 0:17:53.490 --> 0:17:54.750 That would be tiring. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:03.100 Human beings do two things. They think too little, and 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:03.960 they overthink. 0:18:04.180 --> 0:18:07.719 I know I do. Yeah. On almost every occasion. 0:18:08.140 --> 0:18:09.760 I think this case is an example of that. 0:18:10.380 --> 0:18:11.180 Overthinking, you think? 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:12.240 Yeah. 0:18:12.300 --> 0:18:19.149 Yeah. She killed three children. Period. Armstrong and Getty. 0:18:19.170 --> 0:18:24.190 People are going to want to know. People have a 0:18:24.310 --> 0:18:28.369 right to know. Carbon monoxide alarm goes off. 0:18:28.650 --> 0:18:30.129 That was a smoke alarm, actually. 0:18:30.150 --> 0:18:30.390 Oh, okay. 0:18:30.410 --> 0:18:31.969 It wasn't a carbon monoxide. 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.800 No smoke. It was a wayward alarm. My alarm's been 0:18:34.820 --> 0:18:39.260 very tense lately. It's anxious. It drinks too much Red Bull. No, 0:18:39.300 --> 0:18:41.340 I have no idea because they go off sometimes. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.090 I don't even know if I have a carbon monoxide 0:18:43.350 --> 0:18:44.490 alarm in my house. 0:18:45.130 --> 0:18:48.390 I know we do because it's code, but you have to. 0:18:48.470 --> 0:18:49.169 You absolutely have to. 0:18:49.170 --> 0:18:50.450 I'm a renter, so I don't have any idea. 0:18:50.810 --> 0:18:51.010 Yeah. 0:18:51.210 --> 0:18:51.410 Anyway. 0:18:52.020 --> 0:18:54.120 No, it just, who knows? It was a fire alarm. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:54.440 Yes? 0:18:54.540 --> 0:18:59.550 When did carbon monoxide things become a, and what causes that? 0:18:59.619 --> 0:18:59.939 I don't know. 0:18:59.960 --> 0:19:02.170 How often does that happen? 0:19:02.190 --> 0:19:05.530 Oh, it's all the time. People go left and right. 0:19:06.170 --> 0:19:07.050 I've heard of people dying in fires. 0:19:07.109 --> 0:19:10.310 It doesn't happen much, but it is, there are fatalities 0:19:10.390 --> 0:19:12.500 from it. It's terrible when it happens, but it's rare. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:13.540 I'm sure, but. 0:19:13.980 --> 0:19:14.380 Yeah, Katie? 0:19:15.130 --> 0:19:16.950 I will let you know that I have had several 0:19:17.410 --> 0:19:20.510 correspondents with listeners who all thought some alarm was going 0:19:20.590 --> 0:19:21.430 off in their house. 0:19:21.550 --> 0:19:24.590 I think people across America thought it, and I apologize 0:19:24.650 --> 0:19:29.580 for that. I vow this will not take full responsibility. 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.280 You're like Orson Welles in the War of the Worlds. 0:19:32.300 --> 0:19:34.199 I mean, you caused a panic nationwide. 0:19:34.820 --> 0:19:35.060 Yes. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.359 Okay, so before I was so rudely interrupted by my 0:19:39.420 --> 0:19:42.770 wayward smoke alarm, we were discussing James Lindsay's absolutely brilliant 0:19:42.790 --> 0:19:46.600 theory kind of a dissection of why college finance got 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.889