WEBVTT - What is Coercive Control? With Dr. Christine Cocchiola 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.880 No one is immune to narcissistic abuse. Their charm, charisma, 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.520 and intense interest draws so. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:08.360 Many people in. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:14.000 On this I opening episode of Navigating Narcissism, I sit 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:18.640 down with doctor Christine Coachiola, a therapist and social worker 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:24.279 specializing in abusive relationships, who took decades to realize she 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.720 herself was in a toxic, controlling, and abusive marriage. When 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:34.120 doctor Christine left after more than thirty years, the post 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:40.680 separation abuse began. The manipulation, gaslighting, and blame shifting escalated 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.279 from threats to slit her throat and. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.440 Poisoning her children's. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.840 Minds with lies about her to sending her more than 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:55.480 three thousand harassing emails. Doctor Christine's journey is a stark 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:01.280 reminder of just how destructive narcissistic relationships can be on 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:06.240 us and our children, and how easy it is to justify, 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:12.440 blame ourselves and get stuck. This podcast should not be 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.120 used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:21.760 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.480 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:32.039 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:38.280 discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.400 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:47.160 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.360 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:59.320 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Doctor Christine Cocciola, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.280 I cannot tell you what a pleasure it is to 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.880 have you here. We met originally by email, and I 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:08.520 remember getting your email. 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.840 I get so many and your message just stop me. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:13.440 I want to read a little bit of it, just 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.200 so other folks can hear it as well. I am 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.640 reaching out as a domestic violence educator and advocate my 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.520 entire life, and also a survivor of narcissistic abuse. I 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.200 was in a marriage to a narcissistic abuser for over 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.880 twenty seven years. How could I, a successful college educator 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.040 an advocate on the topic of domestic violence since the 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.760 age of nineteen, be with a man for so long 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.000 and not recognize the signs of the abuse. I am 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.720 prominent in the field of coercive control and appreciate the 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.960 educational platform that doctor Romney has. She literally saved my 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.440 life when I found her on YouTube in twenty eighteen 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.079 deciding to leave the abuser and where your email made 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.320 such a strong impact on me is. I think that 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.720 the myth out there is that, oh, this just happens 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.919 to people who don't understand it, who don't get it, 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:11.600 and you a survivor. I'm a survivor. Many other people 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.519 who are trained in this are survivors, and so many 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:19.080 people feel foolish. It humanizes it when professionals like you 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.320 and I have gone through it. No one is immune. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.120 The red flags are not this big obvious thing. Your 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.000 story is so powerful, not just for your lived experience, 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.400 but for all that you know about cowers of control. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.720 Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored, beyond 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:37.160 honored to be here, so thank you. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.080 So let's just start at the beginning of your story. 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.600 How did you meet your husband? 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.480 I was only sixteen years old. He lived around the 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.880 corner from me, and I used to run and he 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.800 would make remarks about me and say, hey, you, I 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.480 want to date you. A little bit about my family history. 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.600 My mom and dad have been married sixty three years 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.200 this October. They met when they were in see in 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.400 the eighth grade. They have the most endaring love and 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.720 I didn't grow up in an abusive home. I didn't 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.640 grow up with a narcissist, but we did grow up 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.160 in a culture of Catholicism. I have twelve years as 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:18.040 Catholic schooling, and we were always taught to be kind, forgiving. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.280 My mom and dad are always accommodating to people and 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.880 do go above and beyond to give to other people. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.480 It wasn't allowed to date before the age of sixteen, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.680 and now I had this young man interested in me 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:34.279 who was kind of cute, and I just fell into 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.400 the trap that I didn't know it was a trap. 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.159 What were the early days of this relationship like intense? 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.520 He was madly in love with me. He actually told 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.760 me that when he saw me running, he pointed and 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.040 told his mother, I'm going to marry that girl someday. 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:54.200 He was fifteen and a half and yeah, so very intense. 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.799 I became his world. It was all consuming. I would 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.719 have to sneak to talk to him, meet him in someplace. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.000 There were just ways that he would say, I miss 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:04.960 you so much, we need to talk, or I need 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.400 to see you. So there was always this very intense 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.400 desire to be with me and to spend time with me, 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.880 even if it meant sneaking around and not being honest 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.240 about it. I just thought that he loved me, and 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:19.720 that's what I was supposed to do. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.400 So you were young, sixteen's young. What was your emotional 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.600 experience like of him being so intense, so obsessive. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.719 I think that it vacillated. I think sometimes I almost 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.440 became addicted to it. That it felt so good to 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:40.480 be so adored by someone. There was also this understanding 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.520 that there weren't guys at high school who liked me. 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.960 It felt intensely good, but it also sometimes felt overwhelming. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.520 There were times where I broke up with him. Once. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.920 I broke up with him several times, but one time 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.520 he literally got on his hands and knees and begged 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.839 me not to leave him. He said he couldn't live 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.360 without me. Another time that I broke up with him, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.840 when I was in college, there was a young man 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.480 interested in me at college and I didn't want to cheat, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.240 so I decided to break up with my ex and 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.040 he basically said he was going to hurt himself if 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.200 I left him. So it was very intense. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.159 That's I mean, there's intense, right, it goes beyond intense. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.400 When somebody is threatening to harm themselves or end their 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.520 lives because you're not going to do what they want, 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.200 that starts going into the realm of manipulative. But when 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.960 you're so young and somebody is saying that to you, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.640 if you and this, if you don't want to be 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:35.320 with me, I'm going to end my life, how did 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:36.280 you manage that? 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.120 I remember a particular situation where I begged him not 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.479 to talk that way. I remember one time that I 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.200 actually did call the ambulance because I recognized somewhere in 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.760 my logical brain that if he actually intended to do it, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.640 I needed to keep him safe. And if I called 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.080 an ambulance, maybe he would never threaten me again like that. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.400 And that is exactly what happened. He never threatened me 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.640 like that after I called an ambulance. So it did work, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.599 but I was in a fog, I would say, I 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.640 was constantly wondering what was real, what was healthy, what 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.120 wasn't healthy, But it wasn't enough for me to leave 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:15.400 or there was also this fear or worry that if 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.400 I left that he would become more intense. I guess 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.480 the word I would call it would be persistent. Persistent 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.000 to talk to me regularly, of course before cell phone, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.080 so sneaking a phone call in the middle of the 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.520 night on the family phone when my parents were in 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.800 the next room, and like, why would I even do that? 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:35.760 I did it because I felt like I had to. 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:37.160 There was a coercion. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.920 You said, you felt like you had to. If you didn't, 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:40.560 then what. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:46.040 I would disappoint him? I would let him down. He 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.040 would ask me how come I didn't love him as 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.720 much as he loved me? How come I wasn't willing 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.440 to prove it to him? You have another boyfriend? Is 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.360 this why you can't be around me as much? There 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.720 was no understanding that we each were supposed to be 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:07.160 growing up as humans individually healthy, instead of becoming mutually exclusive. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.240 There was no mutuality at all. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:11.440 It's interesting your use of language on that. When you 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.040 said he was persistent. The other word that was coming 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.880 to mind to me is intrusive. It went into this 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:22.160 really violating space of constantly encroaching. But you're also noting, 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.000 and I think it's really important you shared this. I 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.880 was afraid I would disappoint him, and I think a 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.800 lot of survivors of these relationships, no matter what age 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.679 they get in the idea of disappointing someone is really 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:39.120 overwhelming and uncomfortable, So people will say, I don't want 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.640 to disappoint someone, And in fact, there's many things about 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.600 this person I really like. I want to understand, Christine. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.600 Was this all happening before you got married? 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:49.840 Yes, okay. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.520 I think it's also important to point out that I 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.480 had a curfew and I would get dropped off at 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.520 home and then he would go out and be with friends. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.600 I realize now that he had a whole nother life 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:02.440 outside of me. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.160 So you got married, Can you give us a little 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.640 sort of insight into how you got to that place? 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:11.400 Sure? So I was in love. I was in love 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.920 with him, regardless of the negative experiences. I thought he 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.560 was a good man. He was part of our family. 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.520 I dated him for seven years. He couldn't wait to 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.360 get married. He was very much a romantic and romanticized 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.840 our wedding and everything that we were going to have 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.680 as a life together. And you know, the week before 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.200 the wedding was his stag and he never came home 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.960 from it. So you know, these are like examples of like, Wow, 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.360 why did I marry this man? But this was a 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:41.880 man who cried on the altar. 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.360 First of all, let's just put a finer point on 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.880 that he didn't come home from his bachelor party. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:48.520 Okay. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:50.120 I don't know if you're familiar with her work as 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.880 doctor Jennifer Fried who talks about betrayal blindness. That has 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.720 that flare to it. Right, I'm about to marry this man. 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.319 I think he's a good man. I'm in love with him. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.400 He didn't come home from his bachelor party. We're just 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.439 gonna gordon that one off and we all do it. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:08.120 I've done it. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.560 I could be the patron saint of betrayal blindness. And 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.120 her framework is that now people could say, this isn't 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.520 me being ridiculous and overlooking red flags just to get married. 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.679 It's a real mechanism. It's almost like a trauma mechanism 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.280 that you can't afford to look over there. Basically, you 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.520 don't want to disappoint him. You weren't not going to 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.760 have that wedding, all of those things. Can I ask you, though, 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.560 while you were together, before you got married, were you 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:40.120 seeing patterns like entitlement and variable empathy and grandiosity and 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.079 arroganinst the stuff if you will of narcissism, was any 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.280 of that popping up in those seven years you were dating. 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.360 He's a musician, and I would say that he really 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.000 enjoyed the attention that he received for playing his music. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.480 He is talented, but he sometimes tried to play humble, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.880 and you know, I don't like all this attention, or 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.839 maybe I'm not that good. So I mean, I look 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.240 back now, and of course it's very clear to me. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.560 But during it, no, during it, no, even his not 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.480 coming home the week before the wedding was more like, 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.480 I must be crazy for overreacting. I was crazy for 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:17.440 being upset about it. There was something wrong with me 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.160 for not trusting him, and it wasn't until years later, 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.600 of course, he fully disclosed. So yeah, I just think 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:28.040 that I was young, naive, and definitely dealing with cognitive dissonance. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.680 But one would argue it's cognitive dissonance, you know, that 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.640 idea of wanting to make the pieces fit. It was 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.320 probably the front end of trauma bonding, though after seven 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.080 years we could call it full In trauma bonding, somebody 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.080 who threatens to end their life because you're not doing 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.679 what they want to do is actually a traumatic experience. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.720 I don't think there's any way to soft pedal that. Right, 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.760 there's a terror and a fear. I'm sure you've worked 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.120 with clients with this. I have worked with dozens of 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.480 clients who have gone through this in relationships, and they'll say, 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.200 I'm stuck and frozen because I can live with the 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.320 idea that someone would end their life. I would argue, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.560 you weren't naive. I would say, I don't care if 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.800 you were eighteen or seventy eight. I think people would 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.560 have had actually a similar experience to what you did. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:14.640 And I want to go back to to one other 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.000 thing here. Patterns you're describing this sort of humility, if 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.000 you will, like I'm not so great, and as well 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.400 as the abandonment stuff, don't leave me. That's actually more 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.960 in line with vulnerable narcissism than grandiose narcissism. That's the 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.200 pattern everyone misses. We don't see the big, preening, pretentious 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.240 look at me. It's very much this woe is me. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.640 But then there's still the manipulation of your overreacting, which 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:39.559 is gaslighting. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.360 So you get. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.000 Married, what was the day to day in and out 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.080 daily stuff of marriage like with him? 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.320 And I would say that overall, it seemed pretty smooth 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.960 before children, except that I look back now and I 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.800 recall he would go out and then not come home 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.080 until very very late. When he was out with friends. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.800 I would be worried about him, ready to call the 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.480 state police and say where is he It's three in 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.400 the morning, and he would say I was overreacting. I 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.360 mean I ended up finding out that he had a 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.960 porn addiction and still stayed. I think that that's like 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.480 probably the pattern, that I would find out something and 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.280 then I would eventually forgive and move on. I appreciate 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:23.000 you reframing that naivety, because I think you're right. Beyond naivety, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.760 it is this desire just to make everything be okay, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.880 just to make the relationship okay. So I would say 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.200 anytime there was a major event, whether it was getting 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.480 to the airport or traveling to go somewhere, there would 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.200 always be some kind of drama. There was always some 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.200 kind of an argument or something. There were definitely arguments 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.520 around birthdays. There's a pattern of something being ruined. 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.520 Narcissistic people ruin special events. I have seen this pattern 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.000 repeated for years in working with clients. It's almost as 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:59.440 though these special events either make the narcissistic person uncomfortable 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.360 because they're not the center of attention or because there's 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.640 a certain loss of control when that person isn't in 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.560 charge of the emotional agenda for the day. We tend 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.480 to minimize the actual harm done by this disregulated behavior 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.000 and often blame the person whose birthday is being ruined 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.640 by labeling them a child for caring so much about 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.080 their event not going as planned. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:29.680 Things didn't always go smoothly, but I would say that 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.400 there was enough good that I was able to forget 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:32.800 the bad. 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.480 That right there, you just sort of defined the trauma 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.280 bond bingo. That's it, right, there was enough good that 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.520 I could forget the bad. And it's amazing how little 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.120 good a person needs in one of these relationships to 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:49.080 forget the bad. 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.320 Yeah, I mean, I feel like he almost got worse 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.600 with time mothers. They would always be disrupted in some way. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.920 There was never just an opportunity to have a wonderful, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.840 peaceful day, holidays, you know what time do we have 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.840 to be to your parents? And then it would always 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.160 be me waiting for him to be ready to go 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.040 to an event, let's say socializing with friends. There was 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.520 always some problem with it. It was either it wasn't 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.720 the right weekend. And one time I had a party 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.760 at my house and he knew about it, and he 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.120 came home and I was getting the house ready. I'm 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.640 running around getting you know, the yard ready. It was 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.600 kind of an outside inside party, doing everything to get 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.000 everything ready. He said, you know what, I don't really 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.200 remember saying that it was okay to have this party, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.120 and I can't believe that you're having any left. He 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.040 left when guests were arriving, and then he came back 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.440 at about nine pm, showed up and pretended that everything 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.440 was okay. It felt like I was constantly being punished 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.400 living in it. I didn't see it as punishment, but 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.240 now I see it as punishment. I lived in a 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.120 life where there was so much to manage because it 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:53.440 was eggshells all of the time. 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.840 This is somebody who was entitled not communicating with a 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.800 spouse or partner when you're coming home at three am 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.560 and then your concern was worry and then being gaslighted. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:07.720 That's abusive. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.920 Things like the party leaving in a petulant sort of 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.160 tantrum and then rolling back in as if nothing happened. 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.280 It's as though that's like page three out of the 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.280 Vulnerable Narcissistic Person's Handbook right there. That's exactly the kind 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.680 of play we'd see. That's sort of sullen. I'm not staying. 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.040 I didn't say you could have this party and then 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.400 showing up. However, he sort of regulated himself in those hours, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.680 coming back like nothing happened. The nothing happened part also gaslighting. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.320 So this was difficult. And then you had kids? What 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:41.440 happened then? 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.360 So when we had children, I realized that I was 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.200 replaced very quickly. So I went from being his everything, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.560 his queen, to being now the children replaced me, And 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.800 it's a beautiful thing. Try to tell another mother that 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.520 your husband is giving your children way too much attention, 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.120 that he doesn't want to spend any time with you. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.359 What does another mother say? You're lucky, You're so lucky 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.560 he's so good with the children. And the reality is 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.080 is that we no longer did anything together anymore. They 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.560 actually started to fill a greater void for him, and 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.680 I was just there for maintenance. I was the one 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.280 who drove them everywhere. I did all the school meetings, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.000 I went alone to all of these things because he 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.080 was too busy to do any of these tasks. I 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.480 think for that, I'm grateful because it created this space 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.800 where my kids and I always had this connection because 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.159 little did I know, and by the time my children 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.119 were nine and ten, he was starting to indoctrinate them 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.600 against me. I mean, I would make dinner and he 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.879 say in front of the kids, did you cook this? 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.520 This is disgusting. I'm not eating this in front of 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:45.080 the children. 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.000 It's interesting for the so called devoted father, you would 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:50.720 think then he'd want to go to the school meetings, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.320 he would want to sort of be that devoted father 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.120 and learn about school and all of that. What I'm 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:57.960 hearing is that the kids were a better source of 0:17:58.040 --> 0:17:59.000 narcissistic supply. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.800 I think so in our relationship that I ended up 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.120 working at least one full time job all the time 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.800 and one part time job, if not more. I was 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.520 the one who was contributing most to the family finances, 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.000 and so when I was working nights, he would be 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.359 home with the kids and enjoying them. And he was 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.160 the fun dad. He was not the person creating structure, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.600 but he would get them to bed on time, and 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:21.920 he just loved the attention. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.439 They adored him, So he was all about the kids. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.119 You're working one and a half jobs. How did he 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.400 view your career and your accomplishments. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.480 So it's interesting that you asked that because he really 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.399 minimized what I did. My daughter had actually at one 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.919 point mentioned wanting to be a social worker, and he said, oh, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:43.800 you never want to do that, that's not a good job, 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.239 right in front of me. Those are the types of 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.639 minimizing conversations that would happen in our home. And so yeah, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.000 I just was meant to go to work and not 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.960 necessarily talk about it. I was creating programming in the 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.440 early nineties regarding child sexual abuse trainings for the state 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.520 of Connecticut, and he was not at all interested, did 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:04.800 not care what I was doing. 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:06.639 Were you the primary breadwinner? 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.320 He works full time too. He's actually a school guidance 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.959 counselor and he's been doing that for years. But I 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.760 was the one contributing more to the family finances. I 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:16.919 was the reason why we were able to go on 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:18.720 nice vacation. So I was the reason why we were 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.479 able to buy that car. So it was financial abuse, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.080 But different people don't think about financial abuse as being 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.440 as my brother would often say, I was the cash cow. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.639 Well, it's interesting, I see where you're going with that, 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.080 is that when we think of financial abuse, we think 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.880 of a narcissistic person or a controlling person having all 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.600 the money and then isolating that person financially, taking away 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.119 credit cards, monitoring their spending, making it so that they 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.840 don't have any discretionary income. In your particular case, it 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:47.320 was really exploitatives. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.520 Yeah. So even though I was working extra and saving more, 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.760 I was also never allowed to get my hair done 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.639 professionally or get a manicure. 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.119 As the marriage was going on, I'm hearing the themes 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.359 like the gas lighting. As the kids are getting older, 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.800 he's actually now sharing with them things that would really 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.960 put a wedge in your relationship with them. Were there 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.920 any other things happening that would shed light on how toxic, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:15.040 how unhealthy it was? 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.120 There was an infidelity, and I thought it was only 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.760 one time. The issue with the infidelity is that it 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.400 was with someone that we were friends with that worked 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.600 at our children's school and then said we would get 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.199 better and we are going to go to therapy. And 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.800 it was always this thing whenever we talked about going 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:33.760 to therapy. It would be like, well, I can't go 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.199 every week, he would commit to every other week, or 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.040 he would show up late, or he would say I 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.920 didn't tell him about the appointment. There was always that 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.200 type of manipulation going on, and I'd be running around saying, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.480 let me show you. I did tell you about this appointment, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.679 and that's why I'm here waiting for you. And I 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.520 have to say that was always interesting because it felt 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.280 like the therapists really weren't always picking up on the 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.359 fact that he was abusive and that the relationship really 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.840