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Speaker 1: On Monday night, Fulton County District Attorney Fawnie Willis indicted

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump and eighteen others for their efforts to overturn

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Speaker 1: Trump's twenty twenty election loss in Georgia.

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Speaker 2: The indictment alleges that, rather than abide by Georgia's legal

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Speaker 2: process for election challenges, the defendants engaged in a criminal

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Speaker 2: racketeering enterprise to overturn Georgia's presidential election result.

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Speaker 1: It's the fourth time Trump has been criminally charged since

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Speaker 1: he left office. But Bloomberg, Zoe Tillman, and Eric Larsen

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Speaker 1: report that the sweeping racketeering charges in Georgia pose legal

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Speaker 1: perils for Trump that are different from the other cases

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Speaker 1: brought against him in New York, Florida and Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And they carry potentially harsher penalties for Trump if he's convicted.

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Speaker 1: I'm Wescasova today on the big take what Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is up against in Georgia. Eric, Zoe, good to see you.

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Speaker 3: Again, Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 4: Good to see you, Eric.

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Speaker 1: So we have our fourth indictment. It was widely expected,

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Speaker 1: and you right though, that unlike the other three, this

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Speaker 1: one is different. Why is this case in Georgia different

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Speaker 1: than the others.

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Speaker 4: Well, there's a couple of reasons why this case is

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Speaker 4: so different. I'd say that the biggest one is that

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Speaker 4: it is such a big case. It's against Trump and

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Speaker 4: eighteen alleged co conspirators, you know, including some of his

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Speaker 4: top former officials and aides, like his former chief of

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Speaker 4: staff Mark Meadows, one of his lawyers, Rody Giuliani. So

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Speaker 4: it's a vast case that is also a racketeering case.

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Speaker 4: So it's essentially alleging an organized crime. So it's a

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Speaker 4: complex set of charges that the DA says, all combined

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Speaker 4: and taken together, we're part of a big criminal conspiracy.

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Speaker 4: So that's the biggest takeaway from how big this case is.

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Speaker 1: And we'll really get into why this being a racketeering case,

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Speaker 1: a rico case is so significant in a bit. But Zoe,

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Speaker 1: there's some other things that also make this case different

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Speaker 1: from the others.

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Speaker 3: That's right, you know, at a really bird's eye view

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Speaker 3: level of major difference is this is a state case.

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Speaker 3: It's not a federal case, and there are certain implications

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Speaker 3: that come with that, one being that if he's convicted

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Speaker 3: of state crimes and ends up winning the White House

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, he can't pardon himself, or at

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Speaker 3: least there is debate over whether he could pardon himself

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Speaker 3: for federal crimes, but it would not be even on

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Speaker 3: the table for state crimes. And now there are two

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Speaker 3: criminal indictments in state courts in New York and in Georgia.

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Speaker 3: It's both more focused than some of the other cases.

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Speaker 3: It really is centered on what happened in Georgia, which,

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Speaker 3: you know, of the seven battleground states, became I think

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Speaker 3: even more so of a focus for the Trump campaign

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Speaker 3: after the twenty twenty election. It does also reference other

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Speaker 3: battleground states, which is part of what makes it so

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Speaker 3: sweeping and broad. But unlike the federal case, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: really purport to be sort of a national indictment, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, I think at the at a top line level,

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Speaker 3: those are also two major differences.

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Speaker 1: Eric. This being a state case is also important, you right,

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Speaker 1: because it comes with penalties built in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of these charges in Georgia have required penalties.

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Speaker 4: I believe that the Rico case carries a minimum of

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Speaker 4: five years and a maximum of twenty. Of course, like

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Speaker 4: in a lot of sentencings, after a conviction, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: always end up being as close to the maximum, but

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Speaker 4: still can be significant penalties. And as Zoe said, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's no chance of him being able to pardon himself,

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Speaker 4: so if he is convicted and sentenced, he really does

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Speaker 4: have to serve time behind bars based on what he's

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Speaker 4: being accused of. Here, it's also worth noting, you know

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Speaker 4: that while he wouldn't be able to pardon himself, or

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Speaker 4: another Republican president wouldn't be able to pardon him, it's

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Speaker 4: also true that in Georgia, the governor can't automatically pardon Trump.

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Speaker 4: I'd say the governor, Brian Kemp, isn't necessarily a big

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Speaker 4: fan of Trump, but theoretically people might think that he

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Speaker 4: would pardon a fellow Republican, but it doesn't. It's not

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Speaker 4: that simple.

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Speaker 3: In Georgia.

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Speaker 4: They have a board setup that would have to make

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Speaker 4: decisions on this, and some of the sentence has to

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Speaker 4: be served, So big risk here for Trump if he

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Speaker 4: is convicted.

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Speaker 1: And Zoe still one more difference too is there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussion about the New York case, but whether

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Speaker 1: the public would be able to see that case, and

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Speaker 1: they won't. But in Georgia, it will be televised, that's right.

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Speaker 3: You know. One of the benefits for us in the

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Speaker 3: media and also for the public in general, in state

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Speaker 3: corp it is that there is a long history of

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Speaker 3: cameras in the courtroom, whereas in federal courts they have

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Speaker 3: been vehemently opposed to putting cameras in for a long time.

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Speaker 3: So for the federal cases in Florida and DC, we've

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Speaker 3: even had to fight for us to just bring in

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Speaker 3: phones to text our editors what's happening live in the courtroom.

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Speaker 3: There is no way, let alone, you know, to have

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Speaker 3: public eyes on what's happening. But here in Georgia, you know,

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Speaker 3: we would expect to have live feeds anyone could tune

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Speaker 3: into watch. Judges have gone back and forth about the

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Speaker 3: pros and cons of that, you know, does it encourage

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Speaker 3: grandstanding or performing for the cameras, But you know, there's

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Speaker 3: such a long history of doing it now in state courts,

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Speaker 3: and I think the consensus seems to be that if

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Speaker 3: the goal is to advocate for your clients, that's sort

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Speaker 3: of the restriction on how much you can really perform

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Speaker 3: for the cameras, and that the benefit of sunshine of

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Speaker 3: daylight on the public seeing how not just the lawyers,

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Speaker 3: that the judges run their court room, how they administer justice,

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Speaker 3: that the benefits of that are vast.

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Speaker 4: I would add one thing to that that would be

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Speaker 4: so interesting about seeing a case like this televised if

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Speaker 4: it went to trial, is that there's always been such

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Speaker 4: a difference between what Trump and his lawyers say out

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Speaker 4: in public on social media, on the street about these

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Speaker 4: allegations against them versus what they say when their lawyers

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Speaker 4: are actually in court. They're a lot more reserved. They

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily make all of the same statements because you

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Speaker 4: might have to back them up a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: And election fraud was really one of those things that

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Speaker 4: they would say. Trump and his supporters would allege, well.

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Speaker 5: The two greatest scams in American history, the Russian hopes

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Speaker 5: and now they are trying to steal an election from us.

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Speaker 5: We won not by a little bit, We won in

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Speaker 5: numbers like nobody's seen before.

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Speaker 4: But then when it came to their court cases and

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Speaker 4: they were in court, they didn't really allege the fraud

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Speaker 4: like that because there frankly wasn't any evidence.

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Speaker 3: That's such a good point and I'm so glad that

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Speaker 3: you brought that up, because I was so struck in

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Speaker 3: DC when Trump showed up for the arraignment. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was in the media room watching a live video

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Speaker 3: feed of him in the courtroom, and the difference between

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Speaker 3: what he was like in that courtroom versus the sort

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Speaker 3: of bomb, bass and big personality on the campaign trail

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Speaker 3: was so striking. And I think you're right that watching

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Speaker 3: that over the course of an entire trial and having

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Speaker 3: the public see that would be just astonishing. As he

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Speaker 3: is then, you know, going back out to rallies and

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Speaker 3: being his normal sort of big personality.

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Speaker 1: Self, Zoe. At the heart of this case, as we

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, is this racketeering statue. Rico, can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about this law and why it's so important here?

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Speaker 3: Right? So, the sort of parent of the law that

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Speaker 3: Trump and the other defendants have been charged under in Georgia,

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Speaker 3: which is the Federal Racketeering Law, was passed in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy and it was designed to address problems that federal

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Speaker 3: prosecutors were having going after the mafia, an organized crime

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Speaker 3: where you know, to someone at the top would be

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Speaker 3: you know, using coded language to explain what they wanted,

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Speaker 3: and then it was lower level folks who were carrying out,

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Speaker 3: you know, the indictable crimes on the ground, and how

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Speaker 3: do you get at the entire enterprise? And so the

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Speaker 3: idea was, if you make it so that you know,

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Speaker 3: each person they have to prove only committed you know,

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Speaker 3: a handful of individual offenses, but that they were part

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Speaker 3: of the broader enterprise, that that was a way to

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Speaker 3: take down the entire organization. And over time courts held

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Speaker 3: that it didn't just have to be applied to the

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Speaker 3: mob and to organized crime, that a criminal enterprise could

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Speaker 3: encompass any number of things. And Georgia passed its version

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Speaker 3: of the statute about a decade later, and there were

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Speaker 3: actually a series of decisions on point to what we're

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Speaker 3: talking about now, saying it can explicitly apply to a

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Speaker 3: public official seeking to stay in office, and you know,

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Speaker 3: early defendants saying I'm not a mob boss, this law

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Speaker 3: is not meant for me, and the court saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's racketeering activity aimed at holding on to this enterprise,

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Speaker 3: to this office. So you know, there's a long history here,

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Speaker 3: and there's a long history specifically in Georgia and Eric.

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Speaker 1: I guess the key in this is that they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to have Trump himself ordering something that's illegal

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Speaker 1: in order to prove a criminal conspiracy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. The Rico law here will allow the

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Speaker 4: state to go after any criminal enterprise. In this case,

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Speaker 4: the enterprise was to keep Donald Trump in office even

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Speaker 4: though he had lost the election. That was the goal

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Speaker 4: of this alleged scheme, this alleged enterprise. And so to

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Speaker 4: use the mafia, you know, example, Trump would be sort

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Speaker 4: of like the mob boss. Even though he's not specifically

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Speaker 4: carrying out all of these crimes down the line, he's

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Speaker 4: letting them know what he wants, what he expects, what

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Speaker 4: he wants them to get done, and they're all working

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Speaker 4: to make it happen, you know. And according to this indictment,

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Speaker 4: some of these alleged crimes fluted things like presenting knowingly

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Speaker 4: false evidence of voter fraud to state lawmakers in Georgia

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Speaker 4: to try to get them to undermine Joe Biden's victory

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Speaker 4: through the electoral College. Trump's own phone call with the

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Speaker 4: Georgia Secretary of State Brad Rafensberger, pressuring him to find

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Speaker 4: just enough votes to overturn his loss in the states.

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Speaker 6: I want to do is this. I just want to

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Speaker 6: find eleven seven hundred and eighty votes, which is one

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Speaker 6: more that we have because we won the state. And

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Speaker 6: flipping the state is a great testament to our country because.

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Speaker 4: Even though they'd already conducted a recount and all of

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Speaker 4: the Republican election officials in Georgia were telling him that

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Speaker 4: there was no massive fraud. According to this indictment, there

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Speaker 4: were one hundred and sixty one acts that were carried

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Speaker 4: out by these nineteen defendants allegedly to carry out this

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Speaker 4: alleged scheme to keep Trump in.

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Speaker 1: Office after the break. The specific of the charges against

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Speaker 1: Trump and the other defendants Zoe. Among the charges against

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Speaker 1: Trump are some really specific things like conspiracy to commit forgery.

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Speaker 3: Right, so you know, the task for prosecutors is to

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Speaker 3: take you alleged criminal conduct that might not fit neatly

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Speaker 3: into a particular bucket and find the matching state offense

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Speaker 3: that goes with that. So there are a number of

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Speaker 3: counts that relate to this broader scheme to line up

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Speaker 3: so called fake electors in battleground states, including Georgia, to

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Speaker 3: sign certifications that were then submitted to the National Archives saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: actually Trump won Georgia, and Trump won Pennsylvania and Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: in Arizona and New Mexico and Nevada. So you know,

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Speaker 3: forgery goes into this idea that there were false sign

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Speaker 3: certifications submitted to an official body, the National Archives, that

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Speaker 3: then feed into the other alleged conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: Eric Along with Donald Trump, there are also eighteen others

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Speaker 1: of his associates who are also charged with a number

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Speaker 1: of crimes. Who are they and what are they charged with?

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Speaker 4: Well Mark Meadows, Trump's former chief of staff, really stands out.

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Speaker 4: He was at Trump's side during the entire effort to

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Speaker 4: try to overturn the result of the twenty twenty election,

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Speaker 4: and according to the indictment, was really helping Trump all

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Speaker 4: along the way with communicating what he wanted to the

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Speaker 4: other alleged co conspirators. Rudy Giuliani obviously a very outspoken

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Speaker 4: lawyer for Trump throughout this whole time. He was obviously

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Speaker 4: on the national level, he was making the case for

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Speaker 4: vast election fraud all along, but in Georgia specifically, he

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Speaker 4: participated in presenting this fake in information about voter fraud

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Speaker 4: to state lawmakers here to try to get them to

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Speaker 4: overturn Joe Biden's vote, you know, for example, saying that

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Speaker 4: ten thousand you know, dead people had voted, even though

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Speaker 4: everyone had debunked that. In Georgia, the Republican election officials

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Speaker 4: who ran the election in the state confirmed that that

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Speaker 4: just wasn't true. John Eastman is someone whose name has

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Speaker 4: come up a lot ever since the election because he

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Speaker 4: came up with this plan to keep Trump in office

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Speaker 4: and this whole scheme to allegedly get Mike Pence, the

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Speaker 4: former vice president, to ultimately overturn the election on January sixth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I think Eric is right. Those

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Speaker 3: are certainly the boldface names that would be most recognizable

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Speaker 3: in this indictment. But there are other, you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of categories of defendants that are really notable as well.

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Speaker 3: You've got through the other the lawyers. They're Sidney Powell,

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Speaker 3: who was bringing these so called you know, release the

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Speaker 3: krack in lawsuits and battleground states, and she's also connected

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Speaker 3: with several defendants who are charged with trying to access

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Speaker 3: voter data in Coffee County, Georgia, and that sort of

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Speaker 3: a separate bucket of folks. There are a few individuals

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Speaker 3: who signed that false certification that we talked about that

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Speaker 3: was submitted to the National Archives. They've got all these

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Speaker 3: different spheres of actors.

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Speaker 1: So as we can see, this is a huge, sprawling

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Speaker 1: case and took a long time to come together. How

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Speaker 1: did they know where to start?

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Speaker 4: It's worth noting that Fannie Willis, who's a Democrat. She

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Speaker 4: was elected and took office just a few days before

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Speaker 4: the January sixth attack on the US Capitol, So she

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Speaker 4: came into the job already knowing that Georgia had been

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Speaker 4: sort of at the center of this election fight that

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Speaker 4: culminated in this attack on the Capitol. And also there

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Speaker 4: was a shocking piece of evidence that was really focusing

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Speaker 4: a lot of attention around the election scandal on Georgia,

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Speaker 4: that infamous phone call that we mentioned earlier, the recorded

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Speaker 4: phone call in which Trump was pressuring George's Secretary of State,

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Speaker 4: the man who runs the elections, to find eleven, seven

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Speaker 4: hundred and eighty votes. So in the phone call, Trump

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Speaker 4: was allegedly violating Georgia law by pressuring an elected official

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Speaker 4: to violate his oath of office. And there were some

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Speaker 4: suggestions that you know, he was even potentially threatening that

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Speaker 4: it might be criminal for Raffensberger to not follow Trump's orders.

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Speaker 4: So this call, the recording of this call came out.

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Speaker 4: That's really what Fannie Willis came into when she took office,

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Speaker 4: and the next month, in February twenty twenty one, she

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Speaker 4: started her criminal investigation, and she already, i think it's

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Speaker 4: safe to say, had quite a bit of evidence to

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Speaker 4: start on there.

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Speaker 3: And what's interesting about that timeline is that her investigation

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Speaker 3: and her focus on then outgoing President Trump and these

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Speaker 3: high level actors really was far ahead of the other

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Speaker 3: investigations that would come. You know, after January sixth, the

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Speaker 3: Justice Department was extremely focused on prosecuting the attack on

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Speaker 3: the Capitol itself, and although at the time they had said,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're open, we're looking at everyone responsible, the

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Speaker 3: focus on Trump and the others who you know are

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Speaker 3: indicted in Georgia now and who we've identified as the

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Speaker 3: unindicted co conspirators in the federal indictment that really came

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Speaker 3: a lot later on the federal side.

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Speaker 1: You've reported before that several of the accused false electors

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Speaker 1: have been cooperating with the prosecutors. How much of a

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Speaker 1: role have they played in bringing the charges in this case.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it remains to be seen how big

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Speaker 4: their role will be, but clearly it would have been

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Speaker 4: helpful to the district attorney and her investigators to have

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Speaker 4: this kind of inside look at what was going on

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Speaker 4: behind the scenes, because we've heard from a lot of

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Speaker 4: reports a lot of these you know, fake electors from

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Speaker 4: Georgia and other swing states. They're sort of a similar

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Speaker 4: story that was happening is that they were being told

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Speaker 4: some of them at least say that they were being

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Speaker 4: told that what they were doing was perfectly legal. They

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Speaker 4: were just putting themselvesselves up as alternate electors in case

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Speaker 4: Trump were to win some lawsuit and suddenly become president.

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Speaker 4: They're saying that they needed to have these alternate slates

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Speaker 4: of electors set aside, just in case that started in

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Speaker 4: Wisconsin when there was actually still a live legal challenge

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Speaker 4: that Trump theoretically could have won when they created an

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Speaker 4: alternate slate of electors there, But then they were allegedly like, well,

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Speaker 4: let's just do this in all the swing states, even

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Speaker 4: though there's no chance of Trump winning any lawsuits there,

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Speaker 4: and having those individuals, those Republicans Trump supporters who put

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Speaker 4: themselves on these lists and participated in this effort. Having

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Speaker 4: them be able to explain to investigators why they did that,

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Speaker 4: what they were told, what guarantees they were given, would

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Speaker 4: all help the DA build the case against the people

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Speaker 4: at the top.

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Speaker 1: Zoe, this is a state case, and yet the prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: Funny will Is, didn't limit the scope of her investigation

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Speaker 1: to Fulton County, Georgia, but in fact started to look

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Speaker 1: beyond the state of Georgia to other states like Arizona, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: and Nevada. How does that work?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, when any prosecutor is investigating a case,

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Speaker 3: if they come across other crimes that you know, they're

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Speaker 3: able to fit into a prosecution that they have jurisdiction

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Speaker 3: to bring under state law, they're not barred from looking

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Speaker 3: outside the borders of wherever they are. If she had

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Speaker 3: just gone in saying I'm going to conduct a national

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Speaker 3: investigation into Trump's activities, that would really be far outside

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Speaker 3: her mandate and she can't just bring a federal case

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Speaker 3: which would take that broader national scope. But you know,

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Speaker 3: when you're charging a conspiracy or racketeering criminal enterprise, by

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Speaker 3: nature of that offense, it's broad, it's sweeping. And so

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Speaker 3: if the conversations that Donald Trump and Rudy Giliani and

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Speaker 3: Don Eastman, et cetera and others are left having where

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Speaker 3: they're not just saying the word Georgia, but Georgia is

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Speaker 3: on a list of things that they're discussing or emails

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Speaker 3: listing a number of states, there is certainly room for

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Speaker 3: her to put that into the indictment.

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Speaker 1: Eric, what has Donald Trump said about the charges?

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Speaker 4: You know, long before these charges were even brought, Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump has denied any wrongdoing in Georgia and in the

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Speaker 4: related Washington case for that matter. He claims that these

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Speaker 4: cases are all part of a political witch hunt, you know,

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Speaker 4: where we've heard many times from him, but he claims

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Speaker 4: that these prosecutors are bringing these coordinated attacks in order

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Speaker 4: to undermine his campaign for office next year.

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Speaker 1: And Zoe, what have the others who've been charged in

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Speaker 1: the case said so far about the charges as of now?

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Speaker 3: You know, they've either denied wrongdoing or have been mum.

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Speaker 3: Since the indictment came down, Rudy Giuliani came out swinging,

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Speaker 3: as he has repeatedly, calling this, you know, an attack

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Speaker 3: on the justice system and part ofenship and denying any wrongdoing.

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Speaker 3: You know, a few other players here in the past

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Speaker 3: have talked about, you know, also not thinking, not believing

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Speaker 3: that they committed any crimes in the course of what

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Speaker 3: they were doing, and that they legitimately believed that there

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Speaker 3: was fraud and they were pursuing that protected opinion in

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Speaker 3: trying to uncover facts about what had happened. But for

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Speaker 3: the most part, the majority of defendants so far have

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Speaker 3: not commented on the indictment itself.

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Speaker 1: When we come back the potential downsides of bringing such

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Speaker 1: a big, sprawling case, Eric Fannie Willis has cast a

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Speaker 1: very broad net with this RICO case, and you're right

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Speaker 1: that she's had a lot of experience bringing these complicated,

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Speaker 1: sprawling cases before.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, Fani Willis has a lot of experience with

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Speaker 4: Georgia's RICO laws. Prior to her election as Fulton County

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Speaker 4: District Attorney, she was the lead prosecutor on a sprawling

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Speaker 4: RICO case that was brought against some Georgia teachers, accusing

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Speaker 4: them of cheating on standardized tests, you know, helping their

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Speaker 4: students look better than they actually were in order to

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Speaker 4: help themselves and their funding for their schools. That ended

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Speaker 4: up being a huge criminal trial for Georgia. She was

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Speaker 4: the lead prosecutor and she won eleven racketeering convictions in

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Speaker 4: that case. She also decided to pursue a racketeering and

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Speaker 4: drug case against rapper Young thug in more than two

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Speaker 4: dozen others. So this is clearly a law that she

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Speaker 4: has a lot of interest in being able to apply

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Speaker 4: to what they allege our vast criminal schemes and Zoe.

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Speaker 1: That is one of the strengths of bringing a Rico case.

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Speaker 1: But it comes with some downsides too, doesn't it.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: You know, complexity cuts both ways. It gives you room

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Speaker 3: to bring in a lot of people and you know,

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Speaker 3: weave together a story where with just one person that

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Speaker 3: might be harder to make that case to a jury.

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Speaker 3: But when you're putting nineteen people and forty one counts

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Speaker 3: in a courtroom, you know before a single jury, you're

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Speaker 3: going to have to prove all of those elements all

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Speaker 3: at once against all of those people, and you know,

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Speaker 3: make sure the jury is following along with you and

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Speaker 3: making those same connections when they haven't been steeped in

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Speaker 3: it for two years. Each defendant has a right to

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Speaker 3: obviously defend themselves and raise all sorts of pre trial

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Speaker 3: challenges to the indictment that might be specific to them

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Speaker 3: or in conjunction with some of their co defendants. And

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Speaker 3: then that gets into the other risk of bringing a

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Speaker 3: sprawling racketeering case, which is time. It takes a long

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Speaker 3: time to prosecute a case of this size and complexity,

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Speaker 3: and when one of your defendants is the former president

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Speaker 3: of the United States, there are additional you know, legal

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Speaker 3: questions and challenges that he might pursue that are novel, untested,

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Speaker 3: and you know, perhaps higher courts may want to dig

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Speaker 3: in and resolve them. But well ahead of this getting

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Speaker 3: to trial, I was talking with one expert who said

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Speaker 3: that Trump may try to move this case out of

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Speaker 3: state court into federal court, saying, I was, you know,

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Speaker 3: the sitting president at the time, I was a federal official.

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Speaker 3: This is properly in federal court. That is a fight

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Speaker 3: that Fannie Willis is going to have to decide whether

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Speaker 3: to pursue, and whoever loses could take that to the

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Speaker 3: federal appeals court, and whoever loses there could ask the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court to weigh in. And all of that is

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Speaker 3: just time. And when you're talking about Donald Trump and

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Speaker 3: his modus operandi in court, it's delay, it's create time.

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Speaker 4: And that really stands out from the case that Special

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Speaker 4: Counsel Jack Smith brought against Trump and Washington, accusing him

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Speaker 4: of trying to steal the twenty twenty election. He kept

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Speaker 4: the case pretty simple. I don't think that he has

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Speaker 4: necessarily publicly explained why, but certainly a lot of experts

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Speaker 4: have said that this is the simplest way to bring

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Speaker 4: a case against a former president who is also running

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Speaker 4: to be president again.

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Speaker 3: And you know what's interesting, the difference between the approach

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Speaker 3: by Jack Smith and Fannie Willis is sort of two

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Speaker 3: sides of the same coin when it comes to leverage

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Speaker 3: and trying to convince possibly key witnesses to turn on

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Speaker 3: other people, including Donald Trump and cooperate. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's one approach that says, you know, don't charge them

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Speaker 3: all right away, let them know that this is what

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Speaker 3: you've got and that this is what's in store for

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Speaker 3: them if they don't cooperate, and try to get that

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Speaker 3: cooperation locked down before indicting them and sort of putting

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Speaker 3: them on the defense and putting them on the attack. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Jack Smith DC indictment has co conspirators

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Speaker 3: who are quite easy to identify for the most part,

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Speaker 3: so they know they're on notice that this is what

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Speaker 3: DJ has against them, and this is what an indictment

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Speaker 3: could look like. But the other approach, you know, when

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Speaker 3: it comes to leverage, is to indict them and to

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Speaker 3: really put them on the spot and say, this is

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Speaker 3: real stakes for you right now. You know, we're making

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Speaker 3: you show up to court to answer to these charges,

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Speaker 3: and you know, isn't that really scary? And wouldn't you

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Speaker 3: rather avoid all of this? So you know, the different

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Speaker 3: approaches also set up different opportunities for the Special Council

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Speaker 3: Office versus the DA's office to try and secure deals

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Speaker 3: ahead of getting to trial.

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Speaker 1: So, Zoe, where do things go from here? What can

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Speaker 1: we expect in the kind of days and weeks ahead.

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Speaker 3: Fannie Willis has said that all of the defendants need

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Speaker 3: to turn themselves in and surrender by August twenty fifth,

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Speaker 3: or potentially face you know, warrants going out for their

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Speaker 3: arrests to come in. We don't really have reason to

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Speaker 3: think at this point that anyone's going to try to

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Speaker 3: flee or evade that, so we would expect sort of

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Speaker 3: a normal course of arranging logistics for everyone to show

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Speaker 3: up at the courthouse to be arraigned. As of now,

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Speaker 3: we expect everyone to plead not guilty, at least initially,

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Speaker 3: and then the next step, which has already been quite

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Speaker 3: fraught in all the other criminal cases against Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: has been scheduling normally a very mundane thing that has

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00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 3: become tied up in politics and partisanship. And you know,

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Speaker 3: with Trump saying basically, I shouldn't be going before a

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Speaker 3: jury and you shouldn't be trying to pick a jury

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Speaker 3: until after the twenty twenty four election, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you may try to make that case again in Fulton County.

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Speaker 3: Whether the judge there will be open to that suggestion

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Speaker 3: remains to be seen. So far, judges have not been

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Speaker 3: open to that suggestion and have said, this is my courtroom.

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Speaker 3: I believe an efficiency, and we're going to set a

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Speaker 3: schedule and if we need to adjust it later, you

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00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 3: know we can, but we're not going to put this off. Definitely,

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Speaker 3: needs of the court do not seed to the needs

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Speaker 3: of politics, essentially.

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Speaker 1: Zoe Eric always great talking to you, Thanks for taking

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having us, thanks.

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Speaker 1: For having us, thanks for listening to us here at

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Speaker 1: The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

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00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take and

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00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: the producer of this episode is Vicky Virgalina, with additional

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00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: production support from Michael Fallero and Rafael I'm Sielee. Our

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00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.