WEBVTT - Antisemitism in America feat. Dana El Kurd 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.640 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.119 Hello everyone, welcome to it could Happen Here. 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.080 My name is Danel Kurd and I'm an associate professor 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:15.240 of political science and a researcher and analyst of Arab ben, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:20.239 Palestinian politics and authoritarianism. More generally, today I have on 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.360 the podcast. Ben lorber Ben is a senior research analyst 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.880 at Political Research Associates. He's worked as a journalist, organizer, 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.560 and movement builder for over a decade and published on 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.680 right wing social movements, Israel, Palestine, Jewish culture, and other 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.520 such topics for outlets such as The Nation, Salon, Jewish Currents, 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.600 and more. He's the co author of Safety through Solidarity, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.400 a radical guide to fining anti Semitism, book published in 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.680 twenty twenty four. I'll link in the show notes for sure. Ben, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:49.879 Welcome to Ahead Could Happen Here? 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:51.559 Thanks for having me so. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:53.920 I thought we could get started with you just telling 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.320 us about yourself and your research. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.680 Yeah, yeah, Well I came to the topic of anti Semitism, 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.640 I guess, you know, in some ways, I mean as 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.280 an American Jew, you know, it's a part of my life. 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.920 But in many ways I came to it politically through 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.319 the Palestine solidarity movement. Over a decade ago, I spent 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.839 a lot of time in the West Bank doing solidarity work, 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.080 and I worked for some years for Jewish Voice for 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.920 Peace as their campus organizer, and I saw, you know, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.800 kind of firsthand how charges of anti Semitism are used 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.520 to shut down descent, to stop Palestinian Arab and Muslim 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.280 students from you know, asking their university to not use 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:31.920 their tuition dollars to bomb Gaza. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:32.160 You know. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.400 So at the same time, you know, we all saw 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.720 the rise of the art right in the first Trump administration, 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.240 and yeah, you know, like many, I started digging into 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.039 you know, what do these folks believe? You know, the 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.039 anti Semitism in their rhetoric was undeniable and. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:47.360 A long story short. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:51.720 Since twenty nineteen, I work with political research associates to yeah. 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:52.880 To monitor the radical right. 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:54.960 I write a lot about anti semitism and how it 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.960 animates the MAGA movement and rising authoritarianism. And also I 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.840 also focus a lot on how you know, the right 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.160 uses these charges of anti semitism to go after their 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.040 political opponents and to shut down criticism of Israel's genocide. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.560 Yeah, I mean, it's been something to behold to watch 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:17.600 actual antisemites accuse others of anti semitism, and the irony 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.080 seems to be lost on all university administrators apparently. But 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.160 I've listened to you a couple times on different podcasts, 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.160 and you know, read your work, I have your book. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:32.280 I realized that I really don't understand the contours of 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.200 modern anti semitism, like maybe because I'm an immigrant. So 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.680 the tropes that they're talking about, the tropes that they're using, 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.920 it really is a learning experience for me to like 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.040 be like, oh, I didn't realize these are the stories 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.320 that they're telling. With that said, you know, you recently 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.320 published something for Convergence magazine titled something like what anti 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.840 Semitism is and Isn't And again I'll link in the 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:54.280 show notes. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:55.520 So and I thought that was really useful. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.160 What are kind of the main takeaways for people to 0:02:58.200 --> 0:02:59.880 know from that piece? Yeah? 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.200 Yeah, you know, in some ways, anti Semitism has some 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.680 unique features, you know, and it also it reminds us 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.960 of say, you know, Islamophobia, with tropes that there's a 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.120 grand Muslim conspiracy to take over the West. You know, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.959 anti Semitism follows that kind of similar conspiracy theory logic 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.240 that really is at the heart of MAGA, you know, 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.560 and basically it's a conspiracy theory that says, you know, 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.320 there's a Jewish cabal you know, at the top of 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:34.320 the government and politics, you know, society, the economy, the media, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.920 you know, culture, basically whatever authoritarians oppose and whatever they 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.400 want to rally their base against. You know, they can 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.080 use this this image of you know, things are not 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:46.920 what they seem. I mean, there's kind of the hidden 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.960 power structure, and it's it's Jewish. I think a lot 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.200 of what MEGA does really well and what the left 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.960 tries to do but in a different way, is you know, 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.160 to tap into people's frustrations that the rent is too high, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:02.080 or that they feel alienated by the modern world, or 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.320 you know, the more racist frustrations that their neighborhoods are changing. 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.080 You know, there's a lot of frustrations and grievance that 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.640 MAGA can tap into in our world, a vast inequality 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.960 and desperation, and you know, blaming someone at the top 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.960 is very useful to channel those grievances. And that's kind 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.560 of the way that anti Semitism has worked for over 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.080 a century. I mean, even before fascist movements of Inner 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.720 War Europe that led to the Holocaust. You know, there 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.560 were Russian ulternationalists who who used documents like the Protocols 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:32.560 of the Elders of Zion, you know, to tell millions 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.480 of Russian peasants, hey, don't join with you. More radical 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.760 movements for liberation, you know, those are controlled by the Jews, right, So, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.679 you know, the these tropes especially I think of Jews 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.359 controlling progressive movement, you know, Jews behind mass integration or 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.800 BLM or LGBTQ rights. They're very powerful for authoritarians, you know, 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.200 to use and sometimes they say Jews outright. Sometimes they 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.200 use dog whistles like George Soros or cultural Marxists or globalists. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:58.719 But it's the same kind of idea. 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.400 Yeah, the Heritage Foundation guy saying globalists, we're talking about 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:04.480 down to globalists. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:06.359 Yeah. So, I mean lots of. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.840 Political ideologies use anti Semitism, and there are of course 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.240 a lot of intersections and overlaps. But I think what 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.680 I particularly found confusing, or like the piece that I 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.360 was least aware of when I said I didn't understand 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.520 the contours of what this looked like was the Christian 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:26.320 nationalism bit, how has like the Christian nationalist movement used 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.320 antisemitism and how has that movement kind of progressed and developed. 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.080 Yeah, that's a good question, you know, because we're so 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.000 used to the Christian right saying that they're built on 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.200 a timeless foundation of Judeo Christian values, right. You know, 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.400 I think in the West, you know, after the Holocaust, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.599 with the rise of US support for Israel, it became 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.120 very common to have a kind of you know, philo 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.400 Semitism on the Christian right of saying, you know, we 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.240 are the world's you know, most valiant defenders of the Jews. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.560 In the eighties it was against godless Communism, or after 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.920 nine to eleven it was you know again radical Islam. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.200 And you know that in itself has a lot of 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.200 anti Semitism, right, I mean, I think, you know, listeners 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.240 might know about, you know, the Christian Zionists, you know, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.560 a movement which supports Israel because of end times fantasies 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.000 in which Jesus is going to return in most Jews 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.520 are going to perish or converture. 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.320 Christianity, you know. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.520 So there's a lot of anti Semitism in the kind 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.680 of we love the Jews we really really love the 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.880 Jews attitude of Christian nationalists. But you know, more recently also, 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.120 you know, there can be even a turn away from that. 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:29.760 You know, like that was always like a kind of 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.120 contingent phenomenon that you know, arose in a very particular 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.880 kind of post war, you know, sort of neoliberal context. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.520 And the world is changing and there's a lot of 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.160 Christian nationalists now who you know, who might say, let's 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.680 just drop the Judeo and let's have a Christian nationalist 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.320 movement in the US and in the West, and they're 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.840 a lot more skeptical of US support for Israel, and 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.320 you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's not surprising. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:54.840 I guess if you look at the history of anti 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.760 Semitism and you know, you know, from the Crusades onward, 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.760 or the Spanish Inquisition, you know, whatever, you have triumphalist 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.440 Christian movements that are allied with state power, it goes 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.760 south for the Jews pretty quickly. In many ways, it's 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.960 not surprising that you know, today the majority of Christian 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.640 country we live in as it gets more chauvinists. You know, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.120 Judaism has long been kind of the main sort of 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.200 theological other for Christianity, and so all those tropes are 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.200 coming back that Jews kill Jesus or you know, or 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.520 Jews don't worship the same God that we do, Like 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.320 it can be very easy to otherwise Jews as well 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.200 as obviously you know, Muslims and you know, and non 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.080 believers and every other you know, and and Christians who 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:33.680 don't meet their definition of the good Christian. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:49.000 So it's yeah, so this is maybe a dumb question, excuse. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.160 My ignorance, but is Kenneth Owens a Christian nationalist? Like 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.000 would she be classified as such? 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.000 Yeah, definitely, She's Catholic. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:56.760 I mean, that's the thing. There's you know, so many 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.560 varieties of Christian nationalists. But yeah, you know, she's definitely 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.880 called for Christianity to be at the center of American 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.520 public life and for the American social order to be 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.000 structured by like a far right vision of Christianity. 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.280 Yeah, m hmmm hmm. 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.480 Okay, So I was on the right track there because 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.760 I did not listen to her interview with Norman Finkelstein, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.440 who is a American Jewish professor and writer who has 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.760 been quite vocal on the Palestine issue and written you 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.600 know a number of books. But you know, he's generally 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.960 seen as on the left. He goes on Candace Owens's 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.839 podcast and does a very long interview, and I could 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.520 only still make the snippets that the Jewish Currents podcast 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.560 put out. But that's what I was really confused hearing 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.040 some of those tropes that she was using. I recognize 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.080 now that they are Christian nationalist tropes, anti Semitic tropes 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.000 about like Jews wanting to enslave Christians, And I had 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.959 no idea that people believe these things anyway. It's a 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.920 larger problem, I guess. But yeah, so Candes Owan's host, 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:04.680 Norman Finkelstein, Tucker Carlson has been repeatedly hosting like Palestinian Christians. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.360 So there was like a nun and. 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.559 There was a priest. Yeah, so yeah, what's going on here? 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.640 How can we explain this kind of merging? 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.520 Yeah, it's very confusing when parts of the far right 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.960 can adopt talking points that sound from one angle to 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.040 be left wing. You know, in some ways it's it's 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.640 not just related to Israel Palestine. I mean, you know, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.600 Trump ran both times on a kind of economic populace platform, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:33.760 you know, and he also you know, as he said 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.080 recently when he met Soon Mamdani, he said, we agree 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:36.760 on some things. 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:38.480 You know, some Bernie owners went to me. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.599 So you know, the far right is always trying to 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.560 kind of you know, co op some sort of you know, 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.720 left wing ideas at times. But yeah, you know, around Palestine, 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.560 I think since the start of the genocide, you know, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.960 MAGA pundits like Kennice Owens and Tucker Carlson have you know, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.120 started to get you know, very critical of the US 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.480 Israel relationship, and you know, some of it is mobilizing, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.239 you know, genuine outrage at the images of the genocide 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.200 all of our phones every day obviously, and some of 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.480 that also as part of this kind of America First, 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:08.440 we don't want any of our tax paramount need to. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.840 Fund you know, foreign wars. And that's you know, very 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.040 reasonable and understandable. 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.360 You know. The way they bring an anti Semitism is 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.240 to say, you know, the reason in the US supports Israel, 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.480 it's not because of imperialism or colonialism, you know, because 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.920 that would indict their own you know, nationalism, but you 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.480 know it's because of a Jewish cabal, right, So you know, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.440 they focus on Jewish Zionists in the US and in 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.640 Israel obviously, who they think have kind of yet enslaved 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:38.040 the US government or their you know outsized global power, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:39.920 you know, over finance and media is. 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.160 The root cause of the US support for Israel. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.079 So that's what they mobilize, and they bring into it 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.240 a lot of Christian nationalist themes, right, because if the 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.760 US is a Christian nation and here's this state with 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.160 you know, a Star David on its flag that claims 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.480 to speak for world Jewry, it's easy to kind of 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.959 then use those Christian tropes and say, oh, this is 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.120 the same old Jewish enemy you are kind of you know, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:02.120 rearing its head again. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.720 So yeah, it's a mess. Yeah, it's a mess. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:11.439 Yeah, very conveniently removing American complicity from the equation, removing 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.640 empire from the equation. It's been disturbing, I have to say, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.599 obviously on the basic level, Like this sounds trite to 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.000 even say, but obviously, like rising anti Semitism has been disturbing. 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.520 But then it's also been disturbing kind of the you know, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.560 mental gymnastics that are going into some people or like 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.760 some people are using to justify this turn on the 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.959 far right, as if the Tucker Carlson's and the Kendice 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.440 Owens of the world like genuinely care about Palestine, you know, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.480 And so there is this like this ridiculous assumption that like, oh, 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:52.400 we can, we can turn people on the right. And 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.600 I think you see it also with like the discussion 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.719 that's emerged after Momdanie met with Trump. It's like, oh, 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.960 the you know, it's not really a lie. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.120 Have to write it to the bottom top. I was like, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.360 what are we talking about here? What are we talking about? 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.560 This is not yeah, what was your definition of the left? Exactly? 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:09.560 I think we have to remember that these are the 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:10.840 same forces. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.200 Who are you rounding up and deporting our neighbors, and 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.559 who are you jailing you know, Mahmu Khalil and somebody 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.240 in other dissidents and they, yeah, they want to see 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.920 a future vision of America that has no room for 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:24.640 most of us in it. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.080 So it's it's important to keep that in mind. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:32.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we have this mess. We have 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.719 the right wing really tried to weaponize this moment and 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.120 using allegations of anti summitism to attack universities, to attack 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.840 political dissidents, et cetera, et cetera, and then we have 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.120 kind of the establishment Jewish organizations, organizations like the Anti 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:47.199 Defamation LEE, the ADEO. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.400 What's happening with them? What are they doing in this moment? 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.440 Yeah, I mean they're very complicit. You know. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.600 The short answer is they're really part of it. I 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.600 mean since the first Trump administration, but really long before. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:59.280 I mean, if you want to really, you know, tell 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.520 the long story of how the ADO has been complicit 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.240 with Empire, it goes you know, at least back to 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.960 you know, the seventies when the ADEL was you know, 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.360 spying on left wing groups along side sides on fascist groups, 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.080 or you know, even all the way back to the 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.320 fifties when the ad L was complicit in uh, you know, 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.200 the McCarthyist you know, purges and supported the state's actions 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:20.360 against you know, the Rosenberg. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.520 So we can go way back. But you know, basically 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.640 the reason these organizations. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.280 Exist in many ways, like so much of their funding, priorities, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.560 and their programming, you know, has become about you know, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.880 defensive Israel. Like so many American institutions, they're hollowed out. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.959 They're not democratic, you know, they don't reflect the priorities 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.200 of most American Jews. You know, they're you know, bought 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.400 and sold by a small donor class. And you know, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.240 so they you know, have made combating BDS and supporting 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.160 Israel the entire focus of their existence. And yeah, you know, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.000 somewhere around the last year, last two years, probably since 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.040 October seventh, you know, people like Jonathan Greenblatt at the 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.440 head of the ADL, you know, made the calculation that 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.400 they're going to go, you know, ride or die on 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.240 teaming up with whoever they can to suppress, you know, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.520 the movement for Palestinian freedom. And so yeah, they've been 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.000 closing up to the you know, to the Trump administration, 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.480 you know, more than to give them a team bit 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.920 of credit. And the first Trump administration, you know, they 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.040 were saying, if there's a Muslim band. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:21.400 Sign me up. 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.440 But Jonathan green Blatz, you know, tweet in twenty seventeen. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.600 You know, they did put up some resistance, even though 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.200 they were also still quite bad in a lot of ways. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:30.920 But you know, now they're just you know, all in. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.720 They're trying to curry whatever access they can to the 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.920 Trump administration, even to the extent of taking down there 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.600 their anti bias initiatives, you know, shuddering a lot of 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.560 their anti extremism work, you know. 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.920 Saying like they aren't going to teach critical race theory. 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.680 You know, they're they're completely just you know, trying to 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.120 keep a seat at the table. But the irony is 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.120 the Magan movement doesn't even want them there. You know, 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.640 some people in the administration are probably still working with 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.200 the ADL, but you know, you have FBI Director Cash 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.360 Betel saying we aren't going to work with you because 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.400 now they think they is anti Christian, you know, which 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.480 is it's self kind of anti Semitic. So it's yeah, 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.000 it's uh, they're kind of in this losing battle where 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.520 they're trying to ally with you know, rising fascism and 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.640 the hope that they can find Jewish safety that way 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.240 and you know, can suppress you know, Israel's critics. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.560 But it's a it's a fool's bargain. We're seeing that 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:19.840 playout in real time right now. 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.280 I mean, I've never seen such a self own in 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.120 my life, like a self goal, you know, where they 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:29.680 defended Elon Musk and then Nazi salute and then Elon 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.640 Musk calls them an anti Christian organization and like and 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.200 calls them out. Then I mean, we have all of 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.480 these kind of outrageous incidents, but the fact that the 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.200 Idel kind of stepped away from its civil rights work, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.080 Like very clearly you've stepped away from its civil rights work. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:44.240 They missed the moment. 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.000 Jewish Currents has been publishing on this. I mean, lots 0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:59.920 of people you're self included, have been publishing on this 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.960 about how the ADLs. 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.640 Like audits are skewed. 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:06.960 Yeah, for lack of a better term, I'm wondering if 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.240 maybe you can speak to that. 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.280 Yeah, I know that was a great piece by actually 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.600 the co author of my book, Shane Burley, you know, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.360 wrote that along with Naomi Bennett, who's another great analyst, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:19.960 you know, really looking at their data and you know, 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.360 seeing that you know, in their twenty twenty i think 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.200 it was twenty twenty three on it of anti Semitic incidents, 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.440 they included like just a huge, you know, swath of 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.680 pro Palestine rallies. If you go to their data, it says, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.000 you know, speakers chanted from the river to the sea, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.040 Palestine will be free. And so that was an anti 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.280 Semitic incident according to the Adel. And this was you know, 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.960 hundreds of incidents, you know, including some rallies that were 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.120 led by Jewish Voice for Peace Right. So now you 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.560 have you know, Jewish groups who are anti Semitic for 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.800 you know, for calling for Palestinian freedom. So it's just 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.000 you know, that kind of counting, which it's a departure 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.800 from previous years. So even methodologically it's it's very unprofessional. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.120 They get to say, oh there's been a startling rise 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.840 in anti Semitism. They're expanding their own parameters for what 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:05.480 counts as an incident, you know, so they're kind of 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.439 cooking their own books. But it does a disservice to 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.120 the you know, to the real fight against anti Semitism. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.440 I think one thing that Shane and Naomi pointed out 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.520 and that article is that you know, there is a 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.040 rise in in white supremacist groups like Patriot Front, you know, 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.600 who are holding rallies and harassing Jewish institutions, you know, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.960 alongside harrassing trans folks and black communities and many other groups. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.600 And you know that's you know, ironically undercounted in the audit. 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.040 And if you have data that equates you know, real 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.320 neo Nazism to people saying Palistine should be free, it's 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.040 just you know, discredits the entire fight against anti Semitism. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.040 So it's it's dangerous to democracy, it's dangerous, you know, 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.240 to the movement for Justice in Palestine, and it's also 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.720 dangerous for American Jews and our attempt to actually get 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.879 a grasp on the contours of anti Semitism that is 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:50.840 rising in this moment. 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.879 Yeah, there is always this inflation I see over and 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.919 over with the far right and people who speak on 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.760 Palestine issues. I mean, this is not exactly analogous, but 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.199 Sarah Herwitz, the Obama speech writer, has recently gone viral. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.840 I'll link the video, but I'll leave people to make 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.160 their own judgments. But the part that I'm referencing here 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.200 is when she puts like in the same breath Nick 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.600 Fuentes and Al Jazeera reporting, and it's again, it's this 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.440 kind of conflation between like actual extremists and people who 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.200 just happen to say things you'd find uncomfortable saying. And 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:33.480 you know, there's also this kind of trend of discounting 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.960 Jewish voices that aren't part of the establishment, so like 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.480 Jewish Voice for Peace is seen as an extremist group 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.280 and not within the fold, which of course gives the 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.160 far right, including President Trump, the ability to decide who 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.760 is Jewish enough for their purposes. And when he's annoyed 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.040 with Chuck Schumer, he calls him a Palestinian, which, by 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:56.680 the way, is offensive on many levels to me. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.399 Yeah, because I don't want Chuck Shim to be a Palestinian. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.560 But yeah, it's just really really quite a mess. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:05.919 Yeah, you know, I was reminded when you said that 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.399 of a group Psyche carry Mission, you know, do the 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.720 same thing. They list you know, first first generation black 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.359 and brown college students as anti Semites and then they 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.159 list Nick front Days and it's you know, it's a 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.400 way for them to kind of protect their brand of like, look, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.920 we are going after real anti semitism, but it's this 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.520 totally discredited notion that you know, anti Semitism or all 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.480 extremism really is like you know, you know, kind of 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.960 an equal threat on both sides of the political spectrum. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:31.960 That is just you know, it doesn't meet our moment 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:32.520 at all. 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.800 It's very clear that that anti Semitism is much stronger 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.560 and more deadly, you know, on the radical right. Data 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.000 supports this not only in the US but around the world. 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.879 And yeah, so this kind of discredited centrist notion that 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.600 you know, both sides are equally threatening is just you know, 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.800 not suiting us for not only around anti semitism. But 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.240 it's the same thing you hear from people like Chuck 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.280 Schumer about extremism, you know, more broadly. So it's it's 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.600 not it's not the way to meet this moment of 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.440