1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, welcome to it could Happen Here. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: My name is Danel Kurd and I'm an associate professor 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: of political science and a researcher and analyst of Arab ben, 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: Palestinian politics and authoritarianism. More generally, today I have on 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: the podcast. Ben lorber Ben is a senior research analyst 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: at Political Research Associates. He's worked as a journalist, organizer, 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: and movement builder for over a decade and published on 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: right wing social movements, Israel, Palestine, Jewish culture, and other 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: such topics for outlets such as The Nation, Salon, Jewish Currents, 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: and more. He's the co author of Safety through Solidarity, 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: a radical guide to fining anti Semitism, book published in 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. I'll link in the show notes for sure. Ben, 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ahead Could Happen Here? 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me so. 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: I thought we could get started with you just telling 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: us about yourself and your research. 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Well I came to the topic of anti Semitism, 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 4: I guess, you know, in some ways, I mean as 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 4: an American Jew, you know, it's a part of my life. 21 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 4: But in many ways I came to it politically through 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 4: the Palestine solidarity movement. Over a decade ago, I spent 23 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 4: a lot of time in the West Bank doing solidarity work, 24 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: and I worked for some years for Jewish Voice for 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 4: Peace as their campus organizer, and I saw, you know, 26 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: kind of firsthand how charges of anti Semitism are used 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 4: to shut down descent, to stop Palestinian Arab and Muslim 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: students from you know, asking their university to not use 29 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 4: their tuition dollars to bomb Gaza. 30 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 5: You know. 31 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 4: So at the same time, you know, we all saw 32 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 4: the rise of the art right in the first Trump administration, 33 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 4: and yeah, you know, like many, I started digging into 34 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 4: you know, what do these folks believe? You know, the 35 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 4: anti Semitism in their rhetoric was undeniable and. 36 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 3: A long story short. 37 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 4: Since twenty nineteen, I work with political research associates to yeah. 38 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: To monitor the radical right. 39 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 4: I write a lot about anti semitism and how it 40 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 4: animates the MAGA movement and rising authoritarianism. And also I 41 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 4: also focus a lot on how you know, the right 42 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 4: uses these charges of anti semitism to go after their 43 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 4: political opponents and to shut down criticism of Israel's genocide. 44 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's been something to behold to watch 45 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: actual antisemites accuse others of anti semitism, and the irony 46 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: seems to be lost on all university administrators apparently. But 47 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: I've listened to you a couple times on different podcasts, 48 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: and you know, read your work, I have your book. 49 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: I realized that I really don't understand the contours of 50 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: modern anti semitism, like maybe because I'm an immigrant. So 51 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: the tropes that they're talking about, the tropes that they're using, 52 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: it really is a learning experience for me to like 53 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I didn't realize these are the stories 54 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: that they're telling. With that said, you know, you recently 55 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: published something for Convergence magazine titled something like what anti 56 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: Semitism is and Isn't And again I'll link in the 57 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: show notes. 58 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: So and I thought that was really useful. 59 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: What are kind of the main takeaways for people to 60 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: know from that piece? Yeah? 61 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, in some ways, anti Semitism has some 62 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 4: unique features, you know, and it also it reminds us 63 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 4: of say, you know, Islamophobia, with tropes that there's a 64 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 4: grand Muslim conspiracy to take over the West. You know, 65 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 4: anti Semitism follows that kind of similar conspiracy theory logic 66 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 4: that really is at the heart of MAGA, you know, 67 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 4: and basically it's a conspiracy theory that says, you know, 68 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 4: there's a Jewish cabal you know, at the top of 69 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 4: the government and politics, you know, society, the economy, the media, 70 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 4: you know, culture, basically whatever authoritarians oppose and whatever they 71 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 4: want to rally their base against. You know, they can 72 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: use this this image of you know, things are not 73 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 4: what they seem. I mean, there's kind of the hidden 74 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: power structure, and it's it's Jewish. I think a lot 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 4: of what MEGA does really well and what the left 76 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 4: tries to do but in a different way, is you know, 77 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 4: to tap into people's frustrations that the rent is too high, 78 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 4: or that they feel alienated by the modern world, or 79 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 4: you know, the more racist frustrations that their neighborhoods are changing. 80 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of frustrations and grievance that 81 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 4: MAGA can tap into in our world, a vast inequality 82 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 4: and desperation, and you know, blaming someone at the top 83 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 4: is very useful to channel those grievances. And that's kind 84 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 4: of the way that anti Semitism has worked for over 85 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 4: a century. I mean, even before fascist movements of Inner 86 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 4: War Europe that led to the Holocaust. You know, there 87 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 4: were Russian ulternationalists who who used documents like the Protocols 88 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: of the Elders of Zion, you know, to tell millions 89 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 4: of Russian peasants, hey, don't join with you. More radical 90 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 4: movements for liberation, you know, those are controlled by the Jews, right, So, 91 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 4: you know, the these tropes especially I think of Jews 92 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 4: controlling progressive movement, you know, Jews behind mass integration or 93 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 4: BLM or LGBTQ rights. They're very powerful for authoritarians, you know, 94 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 4: to use and sometimes they say Jews outright. Sometimes they 95 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 4: use dog whistles like George Soros or cultural Marxists or globalists. 96 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: But it's the same kind of idea. 97 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Heritage Foundation guy saying globalists, we're talking about 98 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: down to globalists. 99 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean lots of. 100 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: Political ideologies use anti Semitism, and there are of course 101 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: a lot of intersections and overlaps. But I think what 102 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: I particularly found confusing, or like the piece that I 103 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: was least aware of when I said I didn't understand 104 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: the contours of what this looked like was the Christian 105 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: nationalism bit, how has like the Christian nationalist movement used 106 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: antisemitism and how has that movement kind of progressed and developed. 107 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question, you know, because we're so 108 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: used to the Christian right saying that they're built on 109 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 4: a timeless foundation of Judeo Christian values, right. You know, 110 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 4: I think in the West, you know, after the Holocaust, 111 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 4: with the rise of US support for Israel, it became 112 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 4: very common to have a kind of you know, philo 113 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 4: Semitism on the Christian right of saying, you know, we 114 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 4: are the world's you know, most valiant defenders of the Jews. 115 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 4: In the eighties it was against godless Communism, or after 116 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 4: nine to eleven it was you know again radical Islam. 117 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: And you know that in itself has a lot of 118 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 4: anti Semitism, right, I mean, I think, you know, listeners 119 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: might know about, you know, the Christian Zionists, you know, 120 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 4: a movement which supports Israel because of end times fantasies 121 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 4: in which Jesus is going to return in most Jews 122 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 4: are going to perish or converture. 123 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: Christianity, you know. 124 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of anti Semitism in the kind 125 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 4: of we love the Jews we really really love the 126 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 4: Jews attitude of Christian nationalists. But you know, more recently also, 127 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 4: you know, there can be even a turn away from that. 128 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 4: You know, like that was always like a kind of 129 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 4: contingent phenomenon that you know, arose in a very particular 130 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 4: kind of post war, you know, sort of neoliberal context. 131 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 4: And the world is changing and there's a lot of 132 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 4: Christian nationalists now who you know, who might say, let's 133 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 4: just drop the Judeo and let's have a Christian nationalist 134 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: movement in the US and in the West, and they're 135 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 4: a lot more skeptical of US support for Israel, and 136 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's not surprising. 137 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 4: I guess if you look at the history of anti 138 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 4: Semitism and you know, you know, from the Crusades onward, 139 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 4: or the Spanish Inquisition, you know, whatever, you have triumphalist 140 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 4: Christian movements that are allied with state power, it goes 141 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: south for the Jews pretty quickly. In many ways, it's 142 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 4: not surprising that you know, today the majority of Christian 143 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 4: country we live in as it gets more chauvinists. You know, 144 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 4: Judaism has long been kind of the main sort of 145 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: theological other for Christianity, and so all those tropes are 146 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 4: coming back that Jews kill Jesus or you know, or 147 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: Jews don't worship the same God that we do, Like 148 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: it can be very easy to otherwise Jews as well 149 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 4: as obviously you know, Muslims and you know, and non 150 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 4: believers and every other you know, and and Christians who 151 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 4: don't meet their definition of the good Christian. 152 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 5: So it's yeah, so this is maybe a dumb question, excuse. 153 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: My ignorance, but is Kenneth Owens a Christian nationalist? Like 154 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: would she be classified as such? 155 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, She's Catholic. 156 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: I mean, that's the thing. There's you know, so many 157 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 4: varieties of Christian nationalists. But yeah, you know, she's definitely 158 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 4: called for Christianity to be at the center of American 159 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 4: public life and for the American social order to be 160 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 4: structured by like a far right vision of Christianity. 161 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, m hmmm hmm. 162 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So I was on the right track there because 163 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: I did not listen to her interview with Norman Finkelstein, 164 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: who is a American Jewish professor and writer who has 165 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: been quite vocal on the Palestine issue and written you 166 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: know a number of books. But you know, he's generally 167 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: seen as on the left. He goes on Candace Owens's 168 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: podcast and does a very long interview, and I could 169 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: only still make the snippets that the Jewish Currents podcast 170 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: put out. But that's what I was really confused hearing 171 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: some of those tropes that she was using. I recognize 172 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: now that they are Christian nationalist tropes, anti Semitic tropes 173 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: about like Jews wanting to enslave Christians, And I had 174 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: no idea that people believe these things anyway. It's a 175 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: larger problem, I guess. But yeah, so Candes Owan's host, 176 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: Norman Finkelstein, Tucker Carlson has been repeatedly hosting like Palestinian Christians. 177 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: So there was like a nun and. 178 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: There was a priest. Yeah, so yeah, what's going on here? 179 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: How can we explain this kind of merging? 180 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very confusing when parts of the far right 181 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 4: can adopt talking points that sound from one angle to 182 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 4: be left wing. You know, in some ways it's it's 183 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: not just related to Israel Palestine. I mean, you know, 184 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 4: Trump ran both times on a kind of economic populace platform, 185 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 4: you know, and he also you know, as he said 186 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 4: recently when he met Soon Mamdani, he said, we agree 187 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 4: on some things. 188 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: You know, some Bernie owners went to me. 189 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 4: So you know, the far right is always trying to 190 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 4: kind of you know, co op some sort of you know, 191 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 4: left wing ideas at times. But yeah, you know, around Palestine, 192 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 4: I think since the start of the genocide, you know, 193 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: MAGA pundits like Kennice Owens and Tucker Carlson have you know, 194 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 4: started to get you know, very critical of the US 195 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: Israel relationship, and you know, some of it is mobilizing, 196 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,239 Speaker 4: you know, genuine outrage at the images of the genocide 197 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 4: all of our phones every day obviously, and some of 198 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 4: that also as part of this kind of America First, 199 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 4: we don't want any of our tax paramount need to. 200 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 3: Fund you know, foreign wars. And that's you know, very 201 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: reasonable and understandable. 202 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 4: You know. The way they bring an anti Semitism is 203 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 4: to say, you know, the reason in the US supports Israel, 204 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 4: it's not because of imperialism or colonialism, you know, because 205 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: that would indict their own you know, nationalism, but you 206 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 4: know it's because of a Jewish cabal, right, So you know, 207 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 4: they focus on Jewish Zionists in the US and in 208 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 4: Israel obviously, who they think have kind of yet enslaved 209 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 4: the US government or their you know outsized global power, 210 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: you know, over finance and media is. 211 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: The root cause of the US support for Israel. 212 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 4: So that's what they mobilize, and they bring into it 213 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 4: a lot of Christian nationalist themes, right, because if the 214 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 4: US is a Christian nation and here's this state with 215 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: you know, a Star David on its flag that claims 216 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: to speak for world Jewry, it's easy to kind of 217 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 4: then use those Christian tropes and say, oh, this is 218 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: the same old Jewish enemy you are kind of you know, 219 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 4: rearing its head again. 220 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's a mess. Yeah, it's a mess. 221 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, very conveniently removing American complicity from the equation, removing 222 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: empire from the equation. It's been disturbing, I have to say, 223 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,599 Speaker 1: obviously on the basic level, Like this sounds trite to 224 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: even say, but obviously, like rising anti Semitism has been disturbing. 225 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: But then it's also been disturbing kind of the you know, 226 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: mental gymnastics that are going into some people or like 227 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: some people are using to justify this turn on the 228 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: far right, as if the Tucker Carlson's and the Kendice 229 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: Owens of the world like genuinely care about Palestine, you know, 230 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: And so there is this like this ridiculous assumption that like, oh, 231 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: we can, we can turn people on the right. And 232 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: I think you see it also with like the discussion 233 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: that's emerged after Momdanie met with Trump. It's like, oh, 234 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: the you know, it's not really a lie. 235 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: Have to write it to the bottom top. I was like, 236 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: what are we talking about here? What are we talking about? 237 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: This is not yeah, what was your definition of the left? Exactly? 238 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: I think we have to remember that these are the 239 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 3: same forces. 240 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 4: Who are you rounding up and deporting our neighbors, and 241 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 4: who are you jailing you know, Mahmu Khalil and somebody 242 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 4: in other dissidents and they, yeah, they want to see 243 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 4: a future vision of America that has no room for 244 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 4: most of us in it. 245 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: So it's it's important to keep that in mind. 246 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we have this mess. We have 247 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: the right wing really tried to weaponize this moment and 248 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: using allegations of anti summitism to attack universities, to attack 249 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: political dissidents, et cetera, et cetera, and then we have 250 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: kind of the establishment Jewish organizations, organizations like the Anti 251 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: Defamation LEE, the ADEO. 252 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: What's happening with them? What are they doing in this moment? 253 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they're very complicit. You know. 254 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: The short answer is they're really part of it. I 255 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 4: mean since the first Trump administration, but really long before. 256 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 4: I mean, if you want to really, you know, tell 257 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: the long story of how the ADO has been complicit 258 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 4: with Empire, it goes you know, at least back to 259 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 4: you know, the seventies when the ADEL was you know, 260 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: spying on left wing groups along side sides on fascist groups, 261 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 4: or you know, even all the way back to the 262 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 4: fifties when the ad L was complicit in uh, you know, 263 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: the McCarthyist you know, purges and supported the state's actions 264 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 4: against you know, the Rosenberg. 265 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: So we can go way back. But you know, basically 266 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: the reason these organizations. 267 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 4: Exist in many ways, like so much of their funding, priorities, 268 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 4: and their programming, you know, has become about you know, 269 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: defensive Israel. Like so many American institutions, they're hollowed out. 270 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 4: They're not democratic, you know, they don't reflect the priorities 271 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 4: of most American Jews. You know, they're you know, bought 272 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: and sold by a small donor class. And you know, 273 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 4: so they you know, have made combating BDS and supporting 274 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 4: Israel the entire focus of their existence. And yeah, you know, 275 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 4: somewhere around the last year, last two years, probably since 276 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 4: October seventh, you know, people like Jonathan Greenblatt at the 277 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 4: head of the ADL, you know, made the calculation that 278 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: they're going to go, you know, ride or die on 279 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 4: teaming up with whoever they can to suppress, you know, 280 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: the movement for Palestinian freedom. And so yeah, they've been 281 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 4: closing up to the you know, to the Trump administration, 282 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 4: you know, more than to give them a team bit 283 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 4: of credit. And the first Trump administration, you know, they 284 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 4: were saying, if there's a Muslim band. 285 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: Sign me up. 286 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 4: But Jonathan green Blatz, you know, tweet in twenty seventeen. 287 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 4: You know, they did put up some resistance, even though 288 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 4: they were also still quite bad in a lot of ways. 289 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 3: But you know, now they're just you know, all in. 290 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 4: They're trying to curry whatever access they can to the 291 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 4: Trump administration, even to the extent of taking down there 292 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 4: their anti bias initiatives, you know, shuddering a lot of 293 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 4: their anti extremism work, you know. 294 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: Saying like they aren't going to teach critical race theory. 295 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 4: You know, they're they're completely just you know, trying to 296 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 4: keep a seat at the table. But the irony is 297 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 4: the Magan movement doesn't even want them there. You know, 298 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 4: some people in the administration are probably still working with 299 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: the ADL, but you know, you have FBI Director Cash 300 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 4: Betel saying we aren't going to work with you because 301 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 4: now they think they is anti Christian, you know, which 302 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 4: is it's self kind of anti Semitic. So it's yeah, 303 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 4: it's uh, they're kind of in this losing battle where 304 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 4: they're trying to ally with you know, rising fascism and 305 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 4: the hope that they can find Jewish safety that way 306 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 4: and you know, can suppress you know, Israel's critics. 307 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: But it's a it's a fool's bargain. We're seeing that 308 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 3: playout in real time right now. 309 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never seen such a self own in 310 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: my life, like a self goal, you know, where they 311 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: defended Elon Musk and then Nazi salute and then Elon 312 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: Musk calls them an anti Christian organization and like and 313 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: calls them out. Then I mean, we have all of 314 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: these kind of outrageous incidents, but the fact that the 315 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: Idel kind of stepped away from its civil rights work, 316 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: Like very clearly you've stepped away from its civil rights work. 317 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: They missed the moment. 318 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: Jewish Currents has been publishing on this. I mean, lots 319 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: of people you're self included, have been publishing on this 320 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: about how the ADLs. 321 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: Like audits are skewed. 322 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, for lack of a better term, I'm wondering if 323 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: maybe you can speak to that. 324 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know that was a great piece by actually 325 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 4: the co author of my book, Shane Burley, you know, 326 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 4: wrote that along with Naomi Bennett, who's another great analyst, 327 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 4: you know, really looking at their data and you know, 328 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 4: seeing that you know, in their twenty twenty i think 329 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 4: it was twenty twenty three on it of anti Semitic incidents, 330 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 4: they included like just a huge, you know, swath of 331 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 4: pro Palestine rallies. If you go to their data, it says, 332 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 4: you know, speakers chanted from the river to the sea, 333 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 4: Palestine will be free. And so that was an anti 334 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 4: Semitic incident according to the Adel. And this was you know, 335 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 4: hundreds of incidents, you know, including some rallies that were 336 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 4: led by Jewish Voice for Peace Right. So now you 337 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: have you know, Jewish groups who are anti Semitic for 338 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 4: you know, for calling for Palestinian freedom. So it's just 339 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 4: you know, that kind of counting, which it's a departure 340 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 4: from previous years. So even methodologically it's it's very unprofessional. 341 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: They get to say, oh there's been a startling rise 342 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 4: in anti Semitism. They're expanding their own parameters for what 343 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 4: counts as an incident, you know, so they're kind of 344 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 4: cooking their own books. But it does a disservice to 345 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 4: the you know, to the real fight against anti Semitism. 346 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 4: I think one thing that Shane and Naomi pointed out 347 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 4: and that article is that you know, there is a 348 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 4: rise in in white supremacist groups like Patriot Front, you know, 349 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 4: who are holding rallies and harassing Jewish institutions, you know, 350 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 4: alongside harrassing trans folks and black communities and many other groups. 351 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: And you know that's you know, ironically undercounted in the audit. 352 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 4: And if you have data that equates you know, real 353 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 4: neo Nazism to people saying Palistine should be free, it's 354 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 4: just you know, discredits the entire fight against anti Semitism. 355 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 4: So it's it's dangerous to democracy, it's dangerous, you know, 356 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 4: to the movement for Justice in Palestine, and it's also 357 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: dangerous for American Jews and our attempt to actually get 358 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 4: a grasp on the contours of anti Semitism that is 359 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 4: rising in this moment. 360 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is always this inflation I see over and 361 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: over with the far right and people who speak on 362 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: Palestine issues. I mean, this is not exactly analogous, but 363 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: Sarah Herwitz, the Obama speech writer, has recently gone viral. 364 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: I'll link the video, but I'll leave people to make 365 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: their own judgments. But the part that I'm referencing here 366 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: is when she puts like in the same breath Nick 367 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: Fuentes and Al Jazeera reporting, and it's again, it's this 368 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: kind of conflation between like actual extremists and people who 369 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: just happen to say things you'd find uncomfortable saying. And 370 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's also this kind of trend of discounting 371 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: Jewish voices that aren't part of the establishment, so like 372 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: Jewish Voice for Peace is seen as an extremist group 373 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: and not within the fold, which of course gives the 374 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: far right, including President Trump, the ability to decide who 375 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: is Jewish enough for their purposes. And when he's annoyed 376 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: with Chuck Schumer, he calls him a Palestinian, which, by 377 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: the way, is offensive on many levels to me. 378 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't want Chuck Shim to be a Palestinian. 379 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's just really really quite a mess. 380 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I was reminded when you said that 381 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 4: of a group Psyche carry Mission, you know, do the 382 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 4: same thing. They list you know, first first generation black 383 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 4: and brown college students as anti Semites and then they 384 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 4: list Nick front Days and it's you know, it's a 385 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 4: way for them to kind of protect their brand of like, look, 386 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 4: we are going after real anti semitism, but it's this 387 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: totally discredited notion that you know, anti Semitism or all 388 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 4: extremism really is like you know, you know, kind of 389 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 4: an equal threat on both sides of the political spectrum. 390 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: That is just you know, it doesn't meet our moment 391 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 3: at all. 392 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: It's very clear that that anti Semitism is much stronger 393 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 4: and more deadly, you know, on the radical right. Data 394 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 4: supports this not only in the US but around the world. 395 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 4: And yeah, so this kind of discredited centrist notion that 396 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 4: you know, both sides are equally threatening is just you know, 397 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 4: not suiting us for not only around anti semitism. But 398 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 4: it's the same thing you hear from people like Chuck 399 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 4: Schumer about extremism, you know, more broadly. So it's it's 400 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 4: not it's not the way to meet this moment of 401 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 4: rising fascists in the sale both sides are bad, it's 402 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 4: just very outdated and dangerous. 403 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely obfuscating. 404 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. So for me, like in the bubbles that I 405 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: live in, I feel like the ideal because of the 406 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: last couple of years, has really discredited itself and there 407 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: have been you know, critics from within kind of the 408 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: American Jewish even establishment. I would say from your perspective, 409 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of course we're going to link your book, so first 410 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: and foremost read. 411 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: Ben and Shane's book. 412 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: But who do you think is speaking on anti Semitism 413 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: in a rigorous way now? Like Nexus Foundation, Like who 414 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: would you say has a better grasp of this situation. 415 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the Nexus you know project is very useful. 416 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 4: It's a coalition of you know, academics who you know 417 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 4: are actually specializing in anti Semitism and They have a 418 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 4: really rigorous attempt, you know, to really give people guidelines 419 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 4: that can help to parse, you know, where anti Semitism 420 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 4: is and where it isn't. And they really stress, you know, 421 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 4: in every incident you come across, you know, every question, 422 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 4: you have to pay attention to context and to really 423 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 4: take a close look at what people are saying, you know, 424 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 4: you know, to separate, you know, as you said earlier, 425 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: you know, to separate the discomfort that you know, for example, 426 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 4: like a Jewish student, you know who Zionist you know 427 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 4: on a campus you might feel if they hear Free 428 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 4: Palestine be able to distinguish that discomfort from actual danger 429 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 4: or from actual antisemitism. 430 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: So I think they do a really nuanced job at it. 431 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 4: You know, there's an organization called Diaspora Alliance that's not 432 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 4: always the very public, but they do a lot of 433 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 4: important work, you know, helping folks, you know, to grapple 434 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 4: with these issues, especially if you're being hit with these 435 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 4: kind of false charges of antisemitism. And then yeah, i'd 436 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 4: say Jewish Currents puts out great resources. Yeah, so those 437 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 4: are three that I think of that I look to. 438 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 4: But I think, you know, right now, we need you know, 439 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 4: I go back and forth over do we need another 440 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: better ADL. But ultimately, you know, I think we need 441 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: new institutions and new projects that are able to look 442 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 4: at antisemitism in an intersectional way, to see the connections 443 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 4: between antisemitism and anti blackness, anti immigrants, enophobia, you know, 444 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 4: to see how how anti semitism, you know, fuels authoritarianism 445 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 4: and makes all us less safe. I think there are 446 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 4: some exciting projects coming down the pike that you know, 447 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 4: people will know about, you know, soon, But I do 448 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 4: think we need kind of new institutions and new resources, 449 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 4: you know, for this. 450 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, Ariel Angel, the editor in chief of Jewish Currents brot. Honestly, 451 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: it feels like a lifetime ago at this point, but 452 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: about like the need for new Jewish institutions. And I 453 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: think this is a you know, from the outside looking in, 454 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, not my not my discussion perhaps, but it 455 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: seems like this is an unnecessary component because there's always 456 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: this tension between exceptionalizing anti semitism and then not meeting 457 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: the moment or seeing it as part and parcel of 458 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: fascism connected to. 459 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: Other you know, ideologies as well. 460 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know, it's so often exceptionalized as this 461 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 4: kind of unique hatred that's you know, outside of all history, 462 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: and it's the oldest hatred, you know, and it's the 463 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 4: you know, the worst hatred right now, there's you know, 464 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 4: all these reasons why not only Jewish leaders, but you 465 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 4: know leaders of all establishment you know, bipartisan politics kind 466 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: of frame anti Semitism in this exceptional way. 467 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 3: But it doesn't serve anyone. 468 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 4: So I do think we need, yeah, like you're saying, 469 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 4: like a rigorous ground analysis that puts it in the 470 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 4: context of Christian supremacy, of white supremacy, you know, of 471 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: Islamophobia that traces these you know, these connections, and neither 472 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: exceptionalizes it, you know, nor minimizes it, but you know 473 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 4: sees it as part of this fabric of arising authoritarianism. 474 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 3: For sure. 475 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 476 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: So in the show notes, I'm going to link all 477 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: the stuff you mentioned, as well as you know, the 478 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: Asparalliance and NExSS project work. There's also an academic article 479 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: if people are interested, by Dove Waxman that I find 480 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: pretty useful, but yeah, I'll put that all on in 481 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much, Ben, This has 482 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: been extremely helpful and horrifying but helpful. 483 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on. Great talking 484 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 3: to you. 485 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: Take care. It Could Happen Here is a production of 486 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. 487 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 488 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 489 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 490 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here, listed directly 491 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. 492 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.