1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace? How has this happened? A 2 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller who's been on the best seller 3 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: list I think one hundred and sixty six consecutive weeks, 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: has sold over twelve million copies of the book, which 5 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: is now a major motion picture, where the Crawdads sing 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: is wanted for questioning in a murder. I Nancy Grace, 7 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. How 9 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: has this happened? First of all, take a listen to 10 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: our friend Joe Freyer at the Today Show jumping from 11 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: the page to the screen where The Crime Dad Singh 12 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: is a highly anticipated film based on the best selling 13 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: novel Girl. It's a fictional story about a murder in 14 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: North Carolina in the nineteen sixties, but in real life, 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: author Delia Owens is facing questions about a deadly shooting 16 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: in Africa in the nineties. Editor in chief of The Atlantic, 17 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Goldberg first reported that Owens is wanted for questioning 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: in the shooting. I've spoken with many leaders of the 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: Criminal Investigation Department of the Zambia National Police and they 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: are very, very eager to speak to Delia Owens. In 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: the mid nineties, Delia, under then husband Mark, ran a 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: conservation center in Zambia protecting elephants from poachers. Nineteen ninety six, 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: they were the subject of an ABC documentary called Deadly Game, 24 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: where one scene shows an alleged poacher being fatally shot. 25 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: The victim is not identified, neither is the shooter. A 26 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: mystery that was never sought. With me is an incredible 27 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now. 28 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: But the banner, the headline is a New York Times 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: best seller, an incredible author, sold over twelve million copies. 30 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: Now the movies coming out where the crawdads singing, It's 31 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: an incredible movie itself. Wanted in questioning for a murder. 32 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: Rebecca Rosenberg is joining me from Fox News. She's the 33 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: author of many books, but the one that really knocked 34 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: me out was At any Cost, the story of Rod 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: Kavlin and his dead wife, Shelley Denishevsky. Think you know 36 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: the rest of that story. But before I go to Rebecca, 37 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: I want to go to Grace Stafford, longtime friend and colleague, 38 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: host of Zoologic podcast, author and zoo aquarium consultant Gray 39 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Grey, what's the name 40 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: of your book. My book is called Zoom Melody in 41 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: a Time Animal Training in a zoo setting and tips 42 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: you can use for your own animals at home. Zoom Melody. 43 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm Gray, I can I could use that. You know. 44 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: We've got let's say, one, two, three, or four four pets, 45 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: two guineas, rescue, cat rescue, dog rescue, the twins, and 46 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: my grandmother. I'm not even throwing David into that mix, 47 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: but there you go. So there's a lot of breakfast 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: going on here, Gray. The poaching scene there and Zambia 49 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: is brutal, brutal. Just give me a thumbnail on that 50 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: before we get started. Well, Nancy, many range countries in 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: Africa have suffered under terrible poaching. And we're not talking 52 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: about the subsistence hunter, the people who are trying to 53 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: feed their families and keep their small farms going. We're 54 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: talking about organized crime on a mass scale, and unfortunately, 55 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: very often the rangers design need to protect these areas 56 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: are underpowered. They don't have the tools they need to 57 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: go out and protect these areas, protect those elephants. As 58 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: you say, so, the poachers often have an upper hand 59 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: in way out in her populations of animals, particularly endangered 60 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: species like African alpers. Now, when you say organized crime, 61 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: so this isn't a boy and his dad sneaking onto 62 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: somebody's property and shooting a couple of birds and bringing 63 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: them home, or shooting a squirrel or whatever they shoot 64 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: and bringing it home. Because I remember growing up, not 65 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: my brother, but some boys in our neighborhood would go 66 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: and hunt rabbits and squirrels on a big landowner's farm 67 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: and they would bring them home and eat them. I 68 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: guess if they could get through the buckshot, that's up 69 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: to them. But you know, that's what most people think 70 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: about poaching. But this is a lot different than that 71 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: gray staffort. I mean, people are murdered. They are murdered 72 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: with knives, they are murdered with machetes, they are murdered 73 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: with guns. Poachers are killed, the teams that are there 74 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: to stop the poachers are killed, and the bodies usually 75 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: are never found there left in the jungle for the 76 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: animals to eat, and they do eat. There's never evidence 77 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: of the crime. Yeah, this goes on, and unfortunately, you 78 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: know the oversight of these these programs is often based 79 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: upon the stability and the strength of the government itself. 80 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: Oh well, there you go. You know what everybody finds 81 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: all the time about living in America. This is bad, 82 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: that's bad. You said this, you said that. You know, 83 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: in other countries, it's so horrible in so many different ways. 84 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: And I found one way that affects me is the 85 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: police investigations in other countries are nil there. For instance, 86 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: when we went when I went with Natalie Holloway's mother 87 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: just recently, Grey, you and I were talking about this. 88 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: We went to Aruba to retrace Natalie's steps and to 89 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: dig up some leads. There was no nine one one. 90 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: And when Natalie's we went to Aruba to try to 91 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: find her daughter, just drop everything, go to Aruba and 92 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: stay for months on end. The police not only didn't 93 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: help her and ignored her, they actually tried to thwart 94 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: the family finding Natalie. People just don't get how lucky 95 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: we are to live in this country. But before I 96 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: start on that, I want you to take a listen 97 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: now to our friend Madelite del Banco NPR. For months, 98 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: the movie's publicists have told me the author is not 99 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: available to comment, so the news continues to hang over 100 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: the film like Spanish moss over a murky Bayou. Okay. 101 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift wrote and sang on the film's soundtrack, saying 102 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: on Instagram she wanted to create something haunting and ethereal 103 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: to match the mesmerizing story, but she's faced social media 104 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: backlash for her involvement in the film. In an interview, 105 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: the director and star of the movie both told me 106 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: they don't know anything about Delia owens past, though they 107 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: did say she has a cameo in the film. Well, 108 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: the past is certainly coming back to haunt her. Or 109 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut seven our friends at NBR. 110 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: It took wildlife scientists Delia Owens a decade to write 111 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: Where the Crawdad Sing. It's now been on the New 112 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list for one hundred and sixty eight weeks. 113 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: Here she is on CBS Sunday Morning. It holds the 114 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: record for being number one for the most weeks. And 115 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: this was your very first novel. First novel. Actress Rhese 116 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: Witherspoon loved it so much she added it to her 117 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: popular book club and produced the film adaptation. It just 118 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: blew me away. It felt like when I was reading 119 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: to Kill a Mockingbird or just any sort of classic 120 00:07:54,080 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: southern literature. She layers on this thriller element. There's a murder. Murder, 121 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: a real life murder in the mid nineteen nineties is 122 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: the big elephant in the room. With the film's release, 123 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: news has resurfaced that Owens is still wanted for questioning 124 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: by Zambian authorities as a possible witness, co conspirator, and 125 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: accessory to federal crimes. Joining me right now from Fox News. 126 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: The author of many books, including At Any Cost, which 127 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: was great, Rebecca Rosenberg, Rebecca, thank you so much for 128 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: being with us. I mean, Where the Crawdad's Sing? Incredible, 129 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: incredible book. I know why it's been on the New 130 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list for so long, and that's really 131 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: hard to get on the list and stay on much 132 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: less stay on it much. Let's stay on it for 133 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty eight consecutive weeks. Have it turned 134 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: into a movie, and now this comes out. I guess 135 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: all the fanfare surrounding Where the Crawdad's Sing has brought 136 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: out allegations and claims regarding the murder. What happened with 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: the murder? Rebecca? So back in the nineties, Delia and 138 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: her sin husband Mark Owen were involved in conservation efforts 139 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: in Southern Africa, including Zambia, and ABC did a documentary 140 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: like a TV documentary on this and went and sent 141 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: out a crew to sort of follow them around. It 142 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: was about the couple and their efforts and and they 143 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: ended up in this remote location and it turned out 144 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: this came out later, but it turned out it appeared 145 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: that the stepson shot an alleged poature, just opened fire 146 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: on him and killed him. And then his father helped 147 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: cover this up, took the body and dumped it in 148 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: the ocean, put it in this helicopter, dumped it in 149 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: the ocean. And so please believe that our the Ambian 150 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: officials believe that that the couple may have been involved 151 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: in a cover up or an accessory. And it wasn't 152 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: just that they had a very aggressive approach to conservation. 153 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: The husband had like a team of sixty scouts under 154 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: him that would resort to violence in their anti coaching efforts. 155 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: So they think they may have committed other climes as 156 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: well involved in those anti coaching efforts. I know that 157 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: when the author, Adelia Owens, and her husband and son 158 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: left the group they came in to take up monitoring 159 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: and finding the poachers had to convince the men, their team, 160 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: their squad to stop saluting, and apparently they were all 161 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: armed with multiple weapons. And this poacher, whoever he may be, 162 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: has never been found. Take a listen to our friend 163 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: Jim Moray at Inside Edition. Nigel Smith is movies editor People, 164 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: which has also covered the story. Shortly after the killing, 165 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: Delia and her ex husband moved away from Africa to Idaho, 166 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: a very remote part of Idaho and basically kind of 167 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: fled the scene, if you will, so you have to 168 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: come to my horsepow Greece. Witherspoon fell in love with 169 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: Owen's novel and produced the movie. The murder investigation was 170 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: dormant for decades, but the success of the book and 171 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: now the movie have put a spotlight on the case. 172 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: I don't think this is the last we're going to 173 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: be hearing from this, because Delia Owens is in the 174 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: spotlight in such a huge way. Right now, we don't 175 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: have any evidence, one way or the other what happened 176 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: when you have a whole team or a squad of 177 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: people that are all armed to the hilt and someone 178 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: allegedly gets shot, their body disposed of. Who did what 179 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: in the middle of a jungle? Is she and her 180 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: family being targeted because they're famous now or did this 181 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: really happen? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me go 182 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,359 Speaker 1: to Mark Tate, joining me, high profile lawyer out of Savannah, 183 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: Georgia with a Tate Law group. Mark Tate, Now we 184 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 1: both know the law that at least in your jurisdiction, 185 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: a judge will no longer charge the jury at the 186 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: end of the case on flight when you leave the 187 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: scene of the crime. Suggesting that that indicates guilt. However, 188 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: the prosecutor can argue it. Let me just throw out 189 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: an easy example, Scott Peterson. I mean, really, he's an 190 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: example for so many things. But there he is with 191 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: his hair dyed bleach blonde, with his brother's ID, ten 192 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: thousand dollars cash, camping supply, water filters, and of course 193 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: a lot of viagra. So he's on the run. What 194 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: does that indicate? Maybe nothing to you, Mark Taple. To 195 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: a jury, it means he was fleeing the crime and 196 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: didn't want to get caught, and that is what is 197 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: going to be argued here. With Delia Owen's and her 198 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: husband and her stepson well that she's wanted for questioning, 199 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: and apparently so is her stepson. However, as you well know, 200 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: Nancy Anne, you don't have to answer police questions. You 201 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: have a right, at least in the United States for 202 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: protection from that under the Fifth Amendment. So she doesn't 203 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: have to answer anything. You don't have to help the 204 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: police in their investigation. Can't lie to him because then 205 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: you're abstracting, but you don't have to answer the questions. Also, 206 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a massive concern about Zambian investigatory and 207 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: prosecutorial tactics. They are known, It's been written about in 208 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: law reviews all over the country as well as internationally. 209 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: They participate paid in the lower court level and what 210 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: they call trial by ambush, and you don't have the 211 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: right to discovery as you do in the United States 212 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: criminal justice system, both federal and states. Instead, the prosecutors 213 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: can hold everything back and spring it on your trial, 214 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: forcing your defense lawyer then to claim a continuance or 215 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: requested continuance. Can I just respond to you absolutely, Okay. 216 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm asking you about a dead guy whose body is 217 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: thrown to the ocean and you're telling me about what 218 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: a bad time defense attorneys have in Zambia in court 219 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: because the prosecutors brings evidence on them. Okay, number one, 220 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: you're putting the cart before the horse. So can we 221 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: get the spotlight off an imaginary defense attorney at an 222 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: imaginary trial in Zambia and focus on the fact that 223 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: you're not in Kansas anymore. Of course, all the constitutional 224 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: protections we have do not apply in Zambia. And I 225 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: think you on that tangent correctly when you were talking 226 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: about here in the US. Anyway, you don't have to 227 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: cooperate with police when you are a target, when you 228 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: are a suspect or a person of interest, When you're 229 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: a witness and you are summoned to come in and 230 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: testify in court and you don't, you can sit your 231 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: booty in jail until suddenly you decide to talk. You 232 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: can enjoy three hots and a cot until it's time 233 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: for you to testify. So if they think it's the stepson, 234 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: don't know if it is or isn't. But if they 235 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: think the step son fired the shot, he in our 236 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: country wouldn't have to come in and cooperate. But the mother, 237 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: the stepmother, the author and her husband do because correct 238 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong it was somehow the law has 239 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: changed in the last couple of weeks. But there is 240 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: no father son or mother's stepson privilege such as attorney 241 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: client or prince, parishioner or husband wife, right. I think 242 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: that's right. Sure, so you darn tu and they're gonna 243 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: have to cooperate. I don't know what happens in Zambia, 244 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: United States, and you don't either. Of course, if that 245 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: was if that was an American, an American citizen who 246 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: was killed, obviously she can be tried in the United States. 247 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: First of all, she's not gonna be tried because nobody's 248 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: alleging that she pulled the trigger. As the step son tape, well, 249 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: we don't know, Okay. Can you stop saying we don't know? Yeah, 250 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: because let's just do a blanket in mark tape. And 251 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: I know it helps your argument to keep saying I 252 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know either. Does anybody on this 253 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: panel know what happened? Because if you do, Jackie Sydney, no, 254 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: nobody knows, so that's a given. Well, I can tell 255 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: you I saw the video, Okay, tell me I saw 256 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: the video. There were a number of people chasing a 257 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: poacher exactly what they say as a poacher, and a 258 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: number of shots are fired into into the into what 259 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: appears to be a human that's no longer moving or 260 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: no longer alive. Yea, no faces are seen. Mark tape. 261 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: I've got to say you're absolutely correct on that. Guys, 262 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: there's video. Take a listen to our friends at the 263 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: New Yorker. This is Jeffrey Goldberg. My name is Jeffrey Goldberg, 264 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: and I've written an article in this week's New Yorker 265 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: about the activities of a pair of American conservationists, Mark 266 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: and Deelia Owens, who went to study hyaenas and lions 267 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: and other large mammals, but got caught up in what 268 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: could be best described as the Poaching Wars. When Mark 269 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: and Delia Owens got to the North Polanga National Park, 270 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: the poachers were decimating the park's elephant population, and they 271 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: found virtually no law enforcement presence at all. They found 272 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: scouts assigned to the park who were bedraggled and essentially unarmed. 273 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: They raised money and bought uniforms and food and weapons 274 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: to take these newly trained scouts into the bush, bringing 275 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: the fight to the poachers. You know, I want to 276 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: hear more from Jeff Goldberg, but I want to bring 277 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: it home to Gray Stafford joining me, the host of 278 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: Zoologic podcast. He's awesome. I met you first many many 279 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: years ago at the Wildlife World Natural Zoo, and you 280 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: were the resident expert in the white tiger that I 281 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: still have a photo of up right now. I'll never 282 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: forget it. Gray Stafford joining me. He's an author of 283 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: Zoomility and he is a renowned consultant regarding zoos and aquariums. Gray, 284 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: I can't stress it enough how violent the poaching scene 285 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: and Zambia is. We're talking about poaching protected animals. We're 286 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: talking about killing elephants, mommy and baby elephants to saw 287 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: off their tusks for the ivory we're talking about. You 288 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: tell me you're the expert. I'm just a lawyer. I mean, 289 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: it's a brutal and it's a high stakes money enterprise. 290 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: Organized crime is there in the jungle, murdering these animals, 291 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: taking their carcasses, taking whatever they can't. It's it's a 292 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: blood bath and the jungle. It can be and has 293 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 1: been historically in a lot of these countries. You know, 294 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: Like anything, the poaching crisis waxes and wanes, but when 295 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: it's bad, it's really bad. And as your set apiece 296 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: mentioned many times, the people charged with protecting these areas 297 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: and the animals that live in them are under equipped 298 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: and poorly trained. Now that's changing over the time, you know, 299 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: since the nineties, but it's still a very very serious 300 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: problem because the gangs themselves, the syndicates are even more 301 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: savvy than it used to be. They have technology, they've 302 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: got money, and so it is a serious problem that 303 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: hasn't gone to wait completely at all. I mean, how 304 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: much are they making if you kill if you murder 305 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: one elephant and saw its tusks off, how much could 306 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: they make off that gray stafford depending on the size, 307 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of dollars. Obviously, the value 308 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: of ivory changes, and there have been steps to try 309 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: to reduce the value of ivory. China and others have 310 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: tried to clamp down on legal ivory trade, much less 311 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: illegal ivory trade, but it's still you know, rhino horn 312 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: is worth more than gold per ounce. Rhinos are often 313 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: poached for their horns, even though it's just fingernail material, 314 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: so it continues to be a very serious problem. But look, 315 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: I've only got a JD. You're the zoology expert. You're 316 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: saying a rhinos horn is only fingernail material. I believe 317 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: it's what you said. Explain well, a lot of people 318 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: think different parts of the world that it's got medicinal use. 319 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: Do you mean for impotency? Yeah, got out there whining 320 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: to men or they're afraid to say impotent Just put 321 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: it out there, Gray, speaking as a man, it's one 322 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: of those words that makes me kind of squirreling. Sorry, 323 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: but people are actually murdering rhinos to get their horn, 324 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: which is made out of fingernail or hair type molecules. Correct, yes, 325 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: keroton basically your fingernail materials the same. So there is 326 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: no medicinal purpose, There is no magical value to it, 327 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: and yet these animals are hunted severely. In the fact, 328 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: rhinos are poached more severely by percentage than even elephants 329 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: are for their ivory. So it's it's a very serious problem. Obviously, 330 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: people are poaching for food sources. Oh please stop, you 331 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: want to tell me the syndicate crime lords are poaching 332 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: in Zambia because they need the meat of a white 333 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: tiger or a rhino. Really, did you just say that 334 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: some animals, smaller animals, the entire force are being cleared 335 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: out and the protein is sensor markets. Yes, it's not 336 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: just for ivory door. Jeff Gardier, Board certified Clinical Psychologist, 337 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: Professor Behavioral Medicine at TRURO, and author of the Causes 338 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: of Autism and many other books. You can find them 339 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: at doctor Jeff Guardier dot com. When you're out there 340 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: surviving in the jungle, do you get some type of 341 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: mentality where laws don't apply to you. You're surviving, and 342 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: you'll do anything it takes to do that. Yeah, I 343 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: think we see that at both sides of this argument. 344 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: Whomever this poacher was, you know, certainly, yes, you're right, Nancy, 345 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: that the syndicates are involved in much of this poaching, 346 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: are you previous guests? I believe is also correct that 347 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: there are people who will do anything they can to 348 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: survive and feed their families too. But what many of 349 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: the writers talked about Goldberg to begin with, talked about 350 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: was this mentality perhaps that Delia Owens Mark Owens The 351 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: Sun also had with regard to you, we're out here 352 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: to save the animals, we're fighting against the poachers, and 353 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: we will do whatever is necessary because in this country 354 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: are the laws are not the same as they are 355 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: in the United States, and we have to do things 356 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: outweigh and it comes with a view of being paternalistic 357 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: to Africans in a way that can be easily viewed 358 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: as being racist. Okay, I was talking about and I 359 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: agree with everything you just said number one, But when 360 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: you get out there in the thick of it, and 361 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: you're in the jungle and you're away from what we 362 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: consider to be civilization, can you get the mental mentality 363 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: that the laws back home, specifically about murder, do not 364 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: apply to you. Well, perhaps at the moment when that 365 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: is happening, when people are in the middle of their 366 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: emotions and they feel that they know perhaps they're doing 367 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: the right thing by saving the animals, and that the 368 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: poachers are the enemy. But as we know, in our 369 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: great country, you know, people are treated equally and you 370 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: do have to follow laws, and that is an important 371 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: part of our legal system. I was just going to 372 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: throw it at your dator, Jeff Gardier. You could argue 373 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: that about a bar fight where a guy thinks he's 374 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: been insulted or somebody makes a pass at his wife, 375 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: he takes a gun and shoots the guy. But you 376 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: could argue, wow, I was protecting my wife, and that's 377 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: absolutely a violation. That is absolutely a homis side that 378 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: will be prosecuted. And in this case, if this occurred 379 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: and you're saying I was protecting the animals, that's not 380 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: going to fly in a US court anyway. Guys, take 381 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: a listen to again our friend Jeff Goldberg at the 382 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: New Yorker, Mark and Bilio Owens got a lot of 383 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: attention for their works. They had an ABC crew come 384 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: out to Zambia and spend a month with them. Okay, 385 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: you find the group to back track it into the 386 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: hills and you set up an ambut there. In the 387 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: course of filming, the ABC crew filmed the shooting of 388 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: an alleged poacher, suspected poacher and the circumstances of this shooting, 389 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: which was shown nationally on ABC in nineteen ninety six 390 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: for the center point of this article. On this mission, 391 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: we would witness the ultimate price paid by a suspected poacher. 392 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: Early in the morning, the scout discovers an abandoned campsite. 393 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: Lying on the ground are shotgun shows, so the scout 394 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: decides to wait an ambush. Our cameras began rolling again 395 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: after a shot is fired at the returning trespasser. So 396 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: there's video or Brand joining me. Former US Marshal Service, 397 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: International Investigations brand author a flying solo Top of the 398 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: World on Amazon. You can find him at er brand 399 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: dot com. Or I want you to listen to one 400 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: more thing, take a listen to our friends at MPR. 401 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: She and her then husband Mark were living in Zambia 402 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: as animal conservationists trying to save elephants from poacher's. Journalist 403 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Goldberg first wrote about this for The New Yorker 404 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: in two ten and more recently The Atlantic Magazine, where 405 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: he's now editor in chief. His reporting suggests the Owens 406 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: set up a brutal operation to go after anyone who 407 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: is a threat to the elephant reserve. In fact, an 408 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: ABC News crew documenting the Owens work in nineteen ninety 409 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: five actually captured the execution of US suspected poacher. Here's 410 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: a clip with gunshots from the show turning point. The 411 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: bodies of the poachers are often left where they fall 412 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: for the animals to eat. Conservation morality Africa. The shooter 413 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: of the unidentified man was never seen on camera, a 414 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: body was never found, and no one has been formally 415 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: charged with a crime. Some witnesses reportedly implicated Mark Owens 416 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: and his son Christopher, according to Jeffrey Goldberg, but the 417 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: journalist says their attorneys have issued statements of denial in 418 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: the killing. To Rebecca Rosenborg, Fox News and author of 419 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: At Any Cost, Rebecca, are those facts correct as you 420 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: understand them? There are people that state the stepson was 421 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: the shooter. Yes, So I think that the most like 422 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: the strongest corroboration comes from the ABC cameraman Chris Everson, 423 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: who spoke to Jeffrey Goldberg and said he witnessed the 424 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: killing and that the stepson opened fire on this alleged 425 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: poacher and then continued to shoot him when he was 426 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: down on the ground and still alive, and there were 427 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: just three of them there at that point. And this 428 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: is also the conclusion of the Zambian government after they 429 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: launched an investigation and they issued a report, this is 430 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: what they concluded that they believed happened, That he was 431 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: the shooter, and that his father helped dispose of the 432 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: body by putting it in the helicopter and dumping it 433 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: in the ocean. So it's and I just want to add, 434 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: like this is this is so unusual for there to 435 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: be a literal ENUS film televised on you know, American television. 436 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: It's just so unusual. I don't think I've ever seen that, 437 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: and it was just a very odd decision for them 438 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: to make. I'm curious for Mirca Rosenberg. I keep hearing 439 00:28:54,160 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: the phrase ambush. Are you telling me that they wins 440 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: and their squad waited in ambush, lie in wait for 441 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: the posters to come back to camp, and then open fire. Yeah, 442 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: so this is like a big part of it that's 443 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: so crazy is that I think you these guys are 444 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: in a game park that are not a game park 445 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: and national parks. They're in the wilderness that's twenty four 446 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: hundred acres in the middle of nowhere, and it's like 447 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: the basic rules seem to not apply to them. They 448 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: were going out there without the government's permission, with armed 449 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 1: people that they were paying, that are going out to 450 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: hunt alleged poachers and there's no um, you know, due 451 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: process here. They are you know, they are just beating 452 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: up people that they suspect their poachers. They don't know 453 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: if they're poachers. So in this instance, they're in a 454 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: campsite and um and they suspected the poacher and they 455 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: just opened fire on him. But it was never confirmed 456 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: if this was a post It was never confirmed to 457 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: you know what he was. It was just a Bati posture. 458 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Now to Er Brandt, as 459 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, former US Marshal Service International Investigations Brant 460 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: and author A flying Solo Top of the World on 461 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: Amazon or Brandt, it's my understanding we do not have 462 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: an extradition treaty with Zambia. So they can want the 463 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: Owens all they can, but they're not going to get 464 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: them under an extradition treaty. What do you make of this? 465 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: Is there any evidence left? I mean, this happened a 466 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: while back. No missing person's report has been filed regarding 467 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: whoever was shot. I don't know if he was even 468 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: from Zambia. So or Brant, what do you make of it? Well, Nancy, 469 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: we do have an extradition treaty with Zambia. It was 470 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: ratified in nineteen thirty five with the United Kingdom and 471 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: then it was kept in place when Zambia got its 472 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: independence in nineteen sixty four. That's pretty common with our 473 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: extradition treaties with former British colonies. For example, Hong Kong 474 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: is we have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, but 475 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: it's from the British treaty that they just left in place. 476 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: So in theory, Owens could be extradited, but it would 477 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: gain extradition. It would have to be compelling evidence against someone. 478 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: And like you said, you don't have a didn't identify 479 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: the victim, you don't have a body, don't have any 480 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: physical evidence, so the chances of gaining extradition are basically 481 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: non existent. Well, you know you're right about the evidence. 482 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: Take a listen to hour cut for our friends at 483 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: the New Yorker. ABC never tells us if they investigated 484 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: who this alleged poacher was, if they ever learned his name, 485 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: or what village came from, or whether he was in 486 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: fact a poacher at all. When this film was screened 487 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: in Zambia, it caused a bit of an uproar. What 488 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: happened was a film that was designed to bring credit 489 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: to their work instead opened up some questions. The American 490 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: Embassy told them that it wouldn't be safe for them 491 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: to come back given the investigation. The equipment and the 492 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: buildings of their project and the park were seized by 493 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: the government and the work did continue, but it continued 494 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: without the owenses. They never came back. So there goes 495 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: all the evidence to doctor Tim Gallagher, who's been waiting patiently. 496 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: Medical examiner for the State of Florida. You can find 497 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: him at pathcaremad dot com. Lecturer at Florida Medical School 498 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: Forensic Medicine. He is the founder and host. This is 499 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: incredible the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference, Doctor Gallagher. 500 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: If the facts are as presented, there is no body. 501 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: The body was dumped in the ocean very methodically at 502 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: the time. There may have been blood evidence. I don't 503 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: know that the DNA protocols are in place in Zambia. 504 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: But if you have blood evidence and you have witnesses, 505 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: that makes a case. If you had blood evidence, what 506 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: could you do with it without knowing who the victim is? 507 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: There's nothing to compare it too. Oh well, we do 508 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: have precedence for that here in Florida. The Toledo case 509 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: was just that there was no body found, but there 510 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: was blood evidence, and the pattern of the blood that 511 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: was found suggested homicidal violence. Oh right, okay, talk regular 512 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: people taught you know what you just made me think 513 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: of Jennifer Julos, the missing Connecticut missing. She's dead, Connecticut 514 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: mom of five. So much blood was found in her home. 515 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: In fact, you and I talked about, I don't know 516 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: if you remember that she has to be dead. Her 517 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: body is somewhere with that amount of blood evidence. And 518 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: you're saying, well, you say it. You tell me, how 519 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: can the blood evidence show there was absolutely a death. Well, 520 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: if you look at the pattern of the blood, you 521 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: can see the amount of the blood, and they can 522 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: enhance it with different chemicals such as luminole and you 523 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: can see that the amount of blood that is on 524 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: the ground. You can often see blood that is on 525 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: the walls of the building. You could sometimes you can 526 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: find blood on the furniture. And just by looking at 527 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: the patterns, just by looking at the amount of blood 528 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: where it is there might be cast off type of 529 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: blood from impact of a blunt instrument or different patterns 530 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: would strongly suggest that the person died a very violent 531 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: death and that a person who lost this amount of 532 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: blood in no way could have survived that of sault. 533 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: Is there any way at this point, doctor Tim Gallagher 534 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: that blood, I mean years have passed, rains erosion, there's 535 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: no way that I know of we could get any 536 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: blood evidence. Bullets, however, that's a totally different thing. But 537 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: what about blood, Well, that would be very difficult. You know, 538 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: it does degrade over time. One of the most important 539 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: molecules in blood is iron, and iron does oxidize or 540 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: or rust, let's say, or degrades quite quickly in the elements, 541 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, So that would be that would be unretrievable. 542 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: You can test for iron and then suggest that it 543 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: could have been that the source of the iron could 544 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: have been blood. But for DNA to survive the elements 545 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: in the open like that over years of time, especially 546 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: in an environment such as Africa, would be very very remote. 547 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: To say, the league or brand joining me author a 548 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: flying solo herv what about bullets or shells? I guarantee 549 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: you if this happened, they did not stick around and 550 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: pick up the blissics evidence. Oh that's correct, Nancy. I 551 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: mean this alleged murder took place three decades ago. I 552 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: mean the there was no you know, crime scene where 553 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: police responded. Evidence technicians responded to gather information to gather evidence, 554 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: things like shell k scenes and bullets, so they have 555 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: nonexistent Yeah, you're right now. Delia Owens, the author of 556 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: Where the Crawdads Sing, the bestseller, the hit movie, she 557 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: has a very different story about what happened. Take a 558 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: listen to our cut twelve. This is Delia Owens on 559 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: Upon Reflection u WTV. One morning, we were watching these 560 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 1: elephants across the river from our camp, and the poachers 561 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: started shooting at them, you know, just in four view 562 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: of our camp. And we were just outraged, and so 563 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: we knew we couldn't trust the game guard. So Mark 564 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: took off on our airplane and flew that night, and 565 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 1: he took one of our trusted bimbo workers with him, 566 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: and he had the shotgun filled with shells. But these 567 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: were not normal shotguns shells. They were it was in 568 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: firecrackers ry and Mark flew down, zoomed down just over 569 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: the poachers camp and fired on the poachers with these 570 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,399 Speaker 1: cherry bombs. They were harmless, but the poachers didn't know this, 571 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 1: of course, and they just make this huge explosion, and 572 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: he flew after those poachers, and then every single night, 573 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, he would fly and bomb. 574 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: These poachers can't with terry bombs, and this really frightened 575 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: them out of the park. Maybe I'm missing something, but 576 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Rebecca Rosenberg, that sounds like an entirely different incident than 577 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: what we're talking about the shooting, the alleged shooting. Yeah, 578 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: I mean, this was just part of their operations. They 579 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: sort of almost went to war with the alleged coachers 580 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: and would do things like this where and there's some 581 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: I think Jeffrey Goldberg says that that there's some debate 582 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: on whether that was just cherry bombs or whether they 583 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: were firing live ammission, but they would they were almost 584 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: like in combat with these poachers both. You know, they 585 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: said they feared that the poachers were trying to kill them, 586 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: and that they you know that they definitely were armed 587 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: in one to think that they were a threat to 588 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: the poachers. I mean, it sounds like a completely different incident. 589 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: Mark Tate with me, high profile lawyer out of Savannah. Mark, 590 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: that sounds like what she Delia said could absolutely be 591 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: true that her husband would fly over the poacher's camp 592 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: and fire cherry bombs to scare them. That sounds like 593 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 1: a whole different incident as opposed to lying in wait 594 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: at a poacher's camp or a person's camp. I don't 595 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: know that they were poachers, and when they show up, 596 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: they start shooting, including after the person's down on the ground. Sure, 597 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: it's a completely different scenario that she is outlined in 598 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: that very exciting story. You know, that's exciting that Mark's 599 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: flying an airplane shooting cherry bombs out of a shotgun. 600 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how you load cherry bombs in 601 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: a shotgun shell. Apparently Marco was a heck of a 602 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: ballistics guy. But anyway, they were throwing shot cherry bombs 603 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: and poachers. That's cool. That doesn't have a thing on 604 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,760 Speaker 1: earth exactly with what ABC. Yeah, with what ABC showed 605 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: on television, you know, there is no doubt they showed 606 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: a man being shot to death on TV and the 607 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: shots continued after he was apparently not moving on the ground. 608 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: So you know, what we don't know is what happened 609 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: immediately prior to that. Did he brandish a firearm? And 610 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,919 Speaker 1: so they're going to say they were using deadly force 611 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: in response to deadly force, I don't know. So you know, 612 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: there are reasons why you can kill somebody. One of 613 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: them is if they brandish firearms and using deadly force 614 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: against you. They didn't bother to tell us that ABC 615 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't investigate. Well, it's on video, So Rebecca Rosenberg, Fox 616 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: News and author here takes theory the video is so chaotic. 617 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: But what do you see on the video from ABC? UM? 618 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it shows a man being essentially murdered, 619 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, And I don't think and I think you 620 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: have a witness who was sort of explained what happened 621 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 1: in the video. He's there and he works for ABC. 622 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: And what I also pas really interested is nobody ever 623 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 1: reported this, Like ABC didn't report it to the government. 624 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: Nobody reported this to anyone, which is also just so 625 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,399 Speaker 1: strange to me. And one thing that we didn't touch 626 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: upon here is that Chris Everson, the stepson, had kind 627 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: of a troubled history and he, you know, he was assigned, 628 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: according to Jeffrey Goldberg, to train the scouts in you know, 629 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: UM in my hand to hand combat and he was 630 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: just a twenty five year old kid from the US 631 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: UM and they were claimed that he would beat scouts 632 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: as you know, to discipline them. So you have kind 633 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: of this, uh, you know, slightly unusual backstory with him. Um, 634 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: he's accused of being the shooter here. Jelia Owens, the 635 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: bestseller Mark Owens, her ex husband Anne stepson Christopher Owens, 636 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: all deny involvement in the incident. We wait as justice unfollows. 637 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace carved the story, signing off goodbye friend.