Speaker 1: This crowd rises to speaking.
Speaker 2: What Carl slammed it out? Carlo left wing reball.
Speaker 3: Perfect dar.
Speaker 4: Pop, then he left block the shot at the rim
Speaker 4: pow with the left hand head of fowl. Welcome to
Speaker 4: the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves media family.
Speaker 4: I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented
Speaker 4: by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch
Speaker 4: over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV,
Speaker 4: including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost
Speaker 4: and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV dot com
Speaker 4: Slash Calves. We thought we might have to wait a
Speaker 4: little bit longer to find out who was going to
Speaker 4: be the Calves opponent in the next round. Unfortunately, or
Speaker 4: fortunately depending on how you look at things. Uh, the
Speaker 4: Milwaukee Bucks blew quite the lead in the final seconds
Speaker 4: of the game, and we know that the Caves are
Speaker 4: going to be playing the Indiana Pacers on Sunday. Joining
Speaker 4: me today as always is my co host, Carl Rodriguez.
Speaker 2: Carter, how you doing, buddy, I'm doing well. Uh, really
Speaker 2: really excited for this series. I think it's the best
Speaker 2: basketball series, you know, that they could have had in
Speaker 2: the second round, you know, of anyone in the three
Speaker 2: to you know, the three to six range. I thought
Speaker 2: Andy was the toughest test in that group, and they're
Speaker 2: gonna get to go prove themselves against much stiffer competition
Speaker 2: than they had in the form of the Miami Heat.
Speaker 2: Totally agree, Totally agree.
Speaker 4: In my eyes, Indiana is the third best team in
Speaker 4: the Eastern Conference and joining us today to help break
Speaker 4: it down. Tony East from Locked On Pacers. Tony, how
Speaker 4: you doing, buddy.
Speaker 1: I'm great. I'm really happy to be here, and I'm
Speaker 1: really looking forward to the series, which is perhaps the
Speaker 1: least informative regular season matchups ever for a series that
Speaker 1: I've ever had in my life for a playoffs.
Speaker 4: It's not the first time because when we did the
Speaker 4: next series a couple of years ago, we're like, you know,
Speaker 4: every single one of these games, the Cats were missing
Speaker 4: Jared Allen for almost all of them, Darius was missing,
Speaker 4: like it seemed like there was never a regular matchup.
Speaker 4: But you're right, I think, you know, you could probably
Speaker 4: say one in one, but even there, Tyres Haliburn played
Speaker 4: like a half of you know, the Pacers win in
Speaker 4: that game. From a calf standpoint, that those two games
Speaker 4: happened in January, Max Struz was getting integrated into the lineup.
Speaker 2: He was coming off the bench in favor of Dean
Speaker 2: Waite at the.
Speaker 4: Time, and then we saw those two late season games
Speaker 4: were about as uninformative as possible when it comes to
Speaker 4: what the playoffs are going to look like.
Speaker 1: You aren't expecting the Pacers to illegally play three two
Speaker 1: way players plus two of their and the bench guys. Yeah,
Speaker 1: those games are rather uninformative for this. And yeah, Alburn
Speaker 1: missed half of one game and the entire other one
Speaker 1: right like that, Even if that alone makes it very
Speaker 1: challenging and makes this all the more fun because we
Speaker 1: have no idea what the chess match or battles are
Speaker 1: really going to look like. From two coaches who have
Speaker 1: had great seasons being tactical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty dope matchup, to be honest, And
Speaker 2: like I've said a few times that I do think
Speaker 2: both teams are going to have like, oh wait, we're
Speaker 2: playing someone pretty competent all of a sudden kind of
Speaker 2: shelf shock after like Indy just had had their way
Speaker 2: offensively with Milwaukee pretty much the entire series. Through four games,
Speaker 2: I think they'd assisted on seventy six percent of their
Speaker 2: field goals, which is like a banana's number. I mean,
Speaker 2: they're a high assist team, but not normally like twelve
Speaker 2: fourteen percent higher than second best Tony. What did you
Speaker 2: see from them in that Bucks series? Did anything surprise you?
Speaker 2: Or was it a spot where it's a little hard
Speaker 2: to evaluate because that Bucks team was not in their
Speaker 2: best shape.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really interesting because, like I picked the
Speaker 1: Pacers to win in seven games, I thought they'd be better,
Speaker 1: but they were even better than I thought they would be.
Speaker 1: And my big takeaway for why I was a little
Speaker 1: wrong about that is and something that I think they'll
Speaker 1: be hopeful to do again for every series they played
Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives. They generated a good shot,
Speaker 1: like whenever they wanted right, they'd come down the floor.
Speaker 1: Outside of the second half of Game three, which was
Speaker 1: the Bucks only win, they'd get across the timeline. They
Speaker 1: would get into their what they call random offense. One
Speaker 1: action here, one action there. The Bucks are rotating. All
Speaker 1: of a sudden, someone's out of position, or someone's not
Speaker 1: ready for what's coming next, or it's not a good
Speaker 1: chance for the Bucks to switch what they did quite
Speaker 1: a bit, and the Pacers would have a Pascal Siaka
Speaker 1: being defended by a small guy or Tyre Salburn with
Speaker 1: somebody he could get into the pain against, whether that
Speaker 1: was for a passover his own shot or a favorable
Speaker 1: matchup with some other other players who have improved as
Speaker 1: rim attackers, either this season or throughout their careers, and
Speaker 1: they took advantage of that, like it was extremely easy
Speaker 1: for them to score. It's funny because every time I
Speaker 1: go to check, I'm like, Okay, the Pacers surely are
Speaker 1: leading the playoffs on offensive rating. Oh, they're second behind
Speaker 1: the Caves by like twenty points. But they still scored
Speaker 1: very easily in the first round. And not that the
Speaker 1: Bucks were like an awesome defense, but they were top twelve,
Speaker 1: and during the regular season I thought there would be
Speaker 1: some more resistance. They do have size, they do have gianness,
Speaker 1: but outside of that second half of Game three and
Speaker 1: like a little bit of tripping over themselves in Game
Speaker 1: five a couple of days ago, they could just score
Speaker 1: whenever they wanted, and that made it easy for them
Speaker 1: to kind of set the terms of engagement every game.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just I was just going to say, you know, Indiana,
Speaker 4: the random offense, as he said, what they do with
Speaker 4: the pick and roll and stuff like that. I just
Speaker 4: felt like such a bad matchup for the Bucks. I
Speaker 4: think I picked the Indian in five or six, I
Speaker 4: can't remember. And obviously, you know, I was assuming Dame
Speaker 4: was going to remain healthy throughout the series. But you know,
Speaker 4: even prior to Dame getting hurt, I think it was
Speaker 4: clear that it was just such a different matchup. And
Speaker 4: when you have you know, Brook Lopez playing drop defense,
Speaker 4: you have Bobby Portis out there like that, They're just
Speaker 4: not equipped to handle kind of what Indies Bread and
Speaker 4: Butter is offensively. And to Carter's point, I think this
Speaker 4: series is going to be a shock to the system
Speaker 4: for both teams because I was looking at it and
Speaker 4: Indies and Miami's defenses were identical basically post All Star Break.
Speaker 4: You look at some of the regular season numbers, Miami
Speaker 4: was a bit better shooting from three in comparison to Indiana.
Speaker 4: But despite those numbers, I don't feel that's true. I
Speaker 4: understand that over an eighty two game sample, that's kind
Speaker 4: of how things shook out or whatnot, But how you
Speaker 4: were going to attack Indiana defensively is dramatically different. Miami
Speaker 4: had two week spots that you could pick at consistently
Speaker 4: and Tyler Herro and kelll where I you know, Indiana
Speaker 4: actually has a point guard, and not only a point guard,
Speaker 4: one of the best playmakers that we've really seen in
Speaker 4: Tyrese Halburn. Well, Miami didn't have a point guard, and
Speaker 4: I think that changes how those three pointers get generated
Speaker 4: in such a dramatic way. I just think it's going
Speaker 4: to be so different for both teams from what they
Speaker 4: were playing in the first round.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tony, what like, oh, go ahead, Carter go I
Speaker 2: was gonna ask you to the point about Indiana's defense
Speaker 2: not having a tremendous amount of weak points. How many
Speaker 2: times do you think that Cleveland Cavaliers scored less than
Speaker 2: one hundred points this regular season? Well?
Speaker 1: I was actually going to bring that up earlier, but
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if it made sense. We were talking about
Speaker 1: if the regular season mattered at all, Like, wasn't that
Speaker 1: their worst game by far offensive? Was that that.
Speaker 2: First had one game under one hundred points and it
Speaker 2: was against your Indiana facers, And I'm not.
Speaker 1: Like I remember the Pacers defending pretty well in that game,
Speaker 1: but not so well that it's like, oh, yeah, they
Speaker 1: should have completely shut down one of the best offenses
Speaker 1: in the had.
Speaker 2: A bad shooting game.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, but it was such a wonky game because
Speaker 4: you know, the Caves were up at half, Halliburn's out,
Speaker 4: the Calves go up by sixteen, and I think they
Speaker 4: just took their foot off the gas, like I think
Speaker 4: they were riding like a fifteen game winning streak at
Speaker 4: that point, and you know, they're up sixteen, Haliburn's not playing,
Speaker 4: and then Indy just goes full court press. The Calves
Speaker 4: blow not only you know, blow the lead, they end
Speaker 4: up getting blown out. It was a massive, massive swing
Speaker 4: in the last you know, eighteen minutes of that game. Obviously,
Speaker 4: as I said, Max Struz was working his way back
Speaker 4: No Ty Jerome in that game, and then they played
Speaker 4: the following game, no Haliburn for that one. So we
Speaker 4: really don't have a lot of useful data in this series. Obviously,
Speaker 4: DeAndre Hunter hasn't played against Indiana at all either, so
Speaker 4: we're kind of flying blind. But I do find it
Speaker 4: interesting because I do think that these are teams that
Speaker 4: do play similar styles at least to some extent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the shock to the system thing is going to
Speaker 1: be fascinating. Like you if you look at full season stats,
Speaker 1: you're gonna like miss a little bit of the boat
Speaker 1: with the Pacers just because they started so bad, like
Speaker 1: they were nine and fourteen and not like doomsday bad,
Speaker 1: but they like couldn't score against the nets and they
Speaker 1: couldn't stop the Hornets and like lost, like all these
Speaker 1: terrible teams are. It's like, man, these guys are just
Speaker 1: gonna be the ten seed the whole season. And they've
Speaker 1: had like the fourth best record in the NBA since
Speaker 1: the NBA Cup and a lot of their numbers since then,
Speaker 1: particularly on defense, are much better. And that's how they
Speaker 1: got to be an actually above average defense this year
Speaker 1: is because of the rise they had. Then they had
Speaker 1: practice time, they got better and jn Nemhard returned that
Speaker 1: obviously alone would have boosted things. Ben Shepherd returned right after.
Speaker 1: So that's a big part of it. But you know,
Speaker 1: the weak points part, and I think that's become a
Speaker 1: theme that people have written about for this playoffs is
Speaker 1: like teams love to attack weak points. That's almost as
Speaker 1: important as like the star parts of the battle, like
Speaker 1: Alberton's been getting picked on at times in the postseason,
Speaker 1: Like he even talked about himself not being the greatest
Speaker 1: defender after their Game five win, right, Like it is
Speaker 1: part of what he knows himself to be, which is
Speaker 1: part of it. He's a good team defender, Like he's
Speaker 1: very aware of what's going on. But you know, they
Speaker 1: they have been very good in spite of that. They
Speaker 1: have all had a lot of guys get better defensively.
Speaker 1: But I think that that will be where the Pacers
Speaker 1: have to figure out, Like, Okay, if we're not gonna
Speaker 1: get run off the floor by Calves team that had
Speaker 1: a one thirty plus offensive rating at the first rowd,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to figure out where to put tyres
Speaker 1: Alburton had to defend on a string for forty eight minutes,
Speaker 1: because I mean, it's happened to every team, right, I'm
Speaker 1: not breaking a news by talking about Cavalanche, just but like,
Speaker 1: you mess up for three minutes of defense, you're down fifteen,
Speaker 1: Like you just can't do it.
Speaker 2: Is that where if as a as a on the
Speaker 2: Pacers side of the ledger, is that where you're the
Speaker 2: most concerned just their ability to hang offensively with the
Speaker 2: Calves or you know, is it or do you have
Speaker 2: similar concerns in the defensive end in terms of, you know,
Speaker 2: the offense being able to get going against obviously this
Speaker 2: super potent front line in Mobley and Allen.
Speaker 1: I think the Caves defense is very good and the
Speaker 1: size is gonna matter against the Pacers. This is not
Speaker 1: to discredit the Calves, but if they stop the Pacers
Speaker 1: for an entire series, they'll be the first team to
Speaker 1: do it, you know, in the Halberd and Carlisle kind
Speaker 1: of era. I am worried about the other end of
Speaker 1: the four way more than that, Like the Calves had
Speaker 1: could have had as many as four all stars, Like
Speaker 1: they had that many guys who were worthy, and like
Speaker 1: their weakest of those guys just shot what seventy five
Speaker 1: percent for a whole series and like just dunked all
Speaker 1: over people.
Speaker 2: For more steals than missus. Yeah against the Miami Yeah right.
Speaker 1: And you know, for all the things mouse Turner is
Speaker 1: good at, like if you take one step away from
Speaker 1: Jared Allen because someone else on your team got beat, okay,
Speaker 1: the boss is over your head and in the basket,
Speaker 1: so and the rebounding battle has very much skewed towards
Speaker 1: the fro in those Texas on Texas battles down low.
Speaker 1: So I think if the Pacers can guard a little bit,
Speaker 1: that will help a lot, because I think they'll be
Speaker 1: able to score enough, but getting stops will be quite
Speaker 1: the chore I think for them, and that that's true
Speaker 1: of everybody against the Cavs. Just ask the he we
Speaker 1: just saw it. But you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: particulars that make me think the defense will be the
Speaker 1: story of the series.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and both teams are very similar in terms of
Speaker 4: how they perform offensively in transition. Both teams are in
Speaker 4: the top five in terms of transition offense. Both are
Speaker 4: you know, cas are eleventh in transition defense, Indy's fourteenth.
Speaker 4: Half court offense, both of these teams are great. Indy
Speaker 4: sixth and half court offense, Caves are number one, and
Speaker 4: half court offense. Half court defense is where there's a
Speaker 4: bit of a difference. Caves are fifth, while Indiana is sixteenth.
Speaker 4: I want to get your perspective on the you know,
Speaker 4: defensive strength of Indiana's front court because you know, Miles
Speaker 4: Turner and Pascal Siakam definitely had reputations of being very
Speaker 4: strong defenders. It hasn't felt like they've been as good
Speaker 4: this year, but maybe you know, some of that is
Speaker 4: skewed by me watching more early season matchups. How do
Speaker 4: you feel about them defensively and how they matchup in
Speaker 4: particular with the Kavs Biggs, because I really do feel
Speaker 4: that Mobley and Allen versus Siaka and Turner matchup is
Speaker 4: going to be one of the most important parts of
Speaker 4: this series.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of stuff that Turner got better at
Speaker 1: is the season on a long defensively because ever like
Speaker 1: he was top five defensive player of the Year twice,
Speaker 1: Like he's yeah, at one point was a game wrecker
Speaker 1: on that end of the floor. I think he's still
Speaker 1: leading the playoffs and Blacks, which if he does again
Speaker 1: be the second time of his career. You know, he
Speaker 1: he's still talented on that end. Like when they were struggling,
Speaker 1: it wasn't really like he looked worse, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily his fault. That the whole game he's being asked
Speaker 1: to cover for someone else who got beat on the perimeter.
Speaker 1: It's like Miles Turner step over and side at the rim.
Speaker 1: Are they're gonna score and and you know you don't.
Speaker 1: You don't want to have to use the mouse trap
Speaker 1: that much. You should just eradicate the mice right, Like
Speaker 1: he's very good, but they didn't. But this season he
Speaker 1: got a lot better like two man game synergy, I
Speaker 1: would say, especially with the Pacers good defenders, like defending
Speaker 1: pick and rolls with them, Hard and Nee Smith have
Speaker 1: looked a lot better. They've been able to mix in
Speaker 1: coverages a little differently in a way that place the
Speaker 1: turner strengths and naturally help their defense. And yeah, Siakam
Speaker 1: last year and even at times really this year was
Speaker 1: a little flimsier than his rep on defense, but like
Speaker 1: there is not a bigger switch in scheme than going
Speaker 1: from Nick Nurse Toronto Raptors style and he planned for
Speaker 1: Darko the last year, but still to the Pacers, right,
Speaker 1: so there's new terminology. You're doing way different things naturally,
Speaker 1: and he's gotten much better as the season has progressed.
Speaker 1: So they they're two most sizeable players they play, are
Speaker 1: good defenders, they're reserve frontcour guys certainly have some weaknesses
Speaker 1: in Thomas Bryant, Obi Topping, like they played those guys
Speaker 1: mostly out of like, hey, we have six fouls for you,
Speaker 1: honest and necessity in the first round. Top it's been
Speaker 1: a good playoff performer before Jaris Walker will hit the
Speaker 1: floor certainly, and he has a nice defensive reputation. But
Speaker 1: you know, the Siakam and Turner's growth on that end
Speaker 1: of the four is actually a big part of the
Speaker 1: Pacers turnaround, because you are right that they have at
Speaker 1: times looked like they'd taken a step back on that end,
Speaker 1: but they needed them to be better to save their
Speaker 1: season and they have been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something I'm really really interested in is what kind
Speaker 2: of scheme Carlisle comes out of the gate with in
Speaker 2: how they guard the pick and roll. Like the Calves
Speaker 2: were pretty like they kind of deviated from their regular
Speaker 2: season in the sense that they really did go hunt
Speaker 2: Tyler Hero. You know, they kind of in my opinion,
Speaker 2: justin feel free to disagree, they were kind of a
Speaker 2: team like we're just going to keep running our stuff
Speaker 2: until you break. They weren't like mismatch hunters. They're not
Speaker 2: like the Celtics, but in that heat series, they really
Speaker 2: did pick at the scab of Tyler Hero before they
Speaker 2: decided to pick at another scab of kilol Ware in
Speaker 2: the games in Miami.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of slander for an Indiana hoosier.
Speaker 2: I'm very upset, I know, I know, but but you know,
Speaker 2: so they kind of did they kind of did that.
Speaker 2: I'm going to imagine they're going to do the same
Speaker 2: thing with Halliburton. And if they're able to get that switch,
Speaker 2: how do you think that Indy's gonna play that? Because
Speaker 2: switching feels really dangerous for Halliburton, Like, I don't think
Speaker 2: you want him trying to like wrestle Jarrett or Evan
Speaker 2: in the post over and over and over again. You know,
Speaker 2: at a drop is what I think, you know, I got,
Speaker 2: like Turner is most comfortable with. But like good luck
Speaker 2: Mobley and Darius, I'm sorry, Donovan and Darius are like
Speaker 2: two of the best drop that can drop defense attackers
Speaker 2: in the NBA. Like what do you think they will
Speaker 2: do versus what they should do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating, Like the first round gave us no
Speaker 1: indication because the whole defensive plan is like okay, Yannis,
Speaker 1: step is step one, two and three and maybe even
Speaker 1: four and then everybody else figure that out later, right,
Speaker 1: And last year they had Brunson and the rest of
Speaker 1: the Knicks who like were you know, this is the
Speaker 1: most like potent team offense they'll have played in this
Speaker 1: era of their team that they'll have to kind of
Speaker 1: sort of stuff out because it's very easy for me to say,
Speaker 1: I bet Halburn starts the game on Max Streus, Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's great. Max Struce goes and sets a screen to
Speaker 1: start a possession, and now, what, like, are you just
Speaker 1: giving something up? Is Streut's just gonna be wide open
Speaker 1: for a three immediately? Gary Trentce just made a trillion
Speaker 1: three's against the Pacers in the first round, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not that obviously helps like sometimes, but it's not
Speaker 1: that simple, and he's going to get caught in tradition
Speaker 1: opportunities because of a strue screen whatever in those matchups.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd imagine they send Turner up higher because
Speaker 1: of that. Try to get those guards to have to
Speaker 1: turn the corner or see another body or just give
Speaker 1: them off time to scram and have the big man
Speaker 1: get back. But hey, good luck, Like that's hard. Everybody
Speaker 1: has tried this, Like if I can think of it
Speaker 1: obviously and it be a coach can think of it right,
Speaker 1: so maybe someone's coming from the weak side to tagd
Speaker 1: Allan come in to the basket. Oh look, Donovan Mitchell
Speaker 1: has become a better passer this year. Darris Carlan's an
Speaker 1: awesome passer. They'll just throw this skit pass over the top,
Speaker 1: like they're gonna have to be really connected, which is
Speaker 1: like everybody's favorite buzzword for just not messing up basically
Speaker 1: when you're rotating, And that's where the Bucks fell apart
Speaker 1: against the Pacers, right, they would stop the first action
Speaker 1: and the second one and the third one. They were like,
Speaker 1: oh crap, we don't know what to do. I'm not
Speaker 1: ready for whatever this is. And if the Pacers can't
Speaker 1: have that, But the Calves force you to mess up
Speaker 1: because they have a lot of good players. So you know,
Speaker 1: if you involve Albert in the action, which I imagine they'll try,
Speaker 1: or if you just keep running whatever the Calves want
Speaker 1: to run with their two all star level ball handlers, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're going to generate good shots like a lot, and
Speaker 1: so the Pacers can't have these breakdowns, so they're just
Speaker 1: gonna get run out of the gym.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it does feel sorry justin I'll toss to you
Speaker 2: in just one second. It does feel like they you know,
Speaker 2: there are when you're coaching up a playoff defense, like
Speaker 2: you kind of are on one end. There are two
Speaker 2: ends of the spectrum. One end is simplify, so no
Speaker 2: one messes up, but like you know, talent will kill
Speaker 2: you or go way complicated, really rely on a lot
Speaker 2: of crazy rotation, high effort, high focus things, and like
Speaker 2: your ceiling might go up, but your floor goes way down.
Speaker 2: It does feel like Andy has to lean towards the
Speaker 2: ladder end of the spectrum and just depend on their
Speaker 2: guys to not screw up.
Speaker 1: And also like they just played honest like more complex
Speaker 1: mess if you if you mess up something complex, it's
Speaker 1: like it looks so bad, like there's like a wide
Speaker 1: open path to the basket. And I think they did
Speaker 1: a really good job with their on a scheme, but
Speaker 1: there were just some moments where like, oh, so obviously
Speaker 1: somebody just messed up like that that's the best player
Speaker 1: in the series walking into the rim. So that's where
Speaker 1: the complicated parts come in, is like one guy messing
Speaker 1: up causes that basically everybody too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see kind of
Speaker 4: how both teams attack one another to start off the series.
Speaker 4: Carter mentioned that the Cavs did, you know, go hunting
Speaker 4: a little bit more than we saw in the regular season.
Speaker 4: And the interesting thing about that is they don't go to,
Speaker 4: you know, hunt out a weak defender in isolation. It's hey,
Speaker 4: we're gonna run you know, a double drag here with
Speaker 4: you know, Max Strus, which I assume Haliburn's going to
Speaker 4: start on him one of the bigs, and we're going
Speaker 4: to count on this flowing into a pick and roll.
Speaker 4: We're going to be able to generate good looks here.
Speaker 4: It's not just about attacking you individually as a defender.
Speaker 4: It's about causing the defense to break down. And one
Speaker 4: of the things I'm curious about is how you anticipate
Speaker 4: Indiana attacking the Cavs defense to start because obviously, you know,
Speaker 4: the pick and roll, pick and pop game has been
Speaker 4: a big part of the Pacers offense. Where do you
Speaker 4: see them targeting the Cavs on the offensive end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny you talk about the Calves going kind
Speaker 1: of against their style by mismatch hunting, because the Pacers
Speaker 1: never do it either, right, Like that was what struck
Speaker 1: struck me at the end of game five of the
Speaker 1: game they just played against the Bucks a couple days ago.
Speaker 1: Like late in the game, they very often were just oh,
Speaker 1: Siakam has a small on them, and they would dump
Speaker 1: it into him like they never play like that. And
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, Man, if they lose, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: to me because they were so focused on like mismatch hunting.
Speaker 1: Guess what it works, SACOM's really good. They won the game,
Speaker 1: but you know, it doesn't feel like that's how they're
Speaker 1: at their best. And they're just hard to prep for,
Speaker 1: right because they what they say it's random, Like it's
Speaker 1: easy to call it random, it's not to them, right.
Speaker 1: They know what to do, They know how to flow
Speaker 1: from action to action. The ball never sticks side to side,
Speaker 1: big Man's the full crumb. It's flipping around. Sometimes that's
Speaker 1: picking roll. Sometimes that's dribble, handoff. Sometimes that's just there's
Speaker 1: not a lot off ball screening, whatever you want to
Speaker 1: call it. It's like it's random to us, it's not
Speaker 1: random to them. The only reason I say that is
Speaker 1: because there's not like a bread and butter like one
Speaker 1: action outside of crunch time when it's like, yes, Yahkam's
Speaker 1: sending a flatball screen for Tyres Alburn that they're gonna do.
Speaker 1: That's gonna crush a team over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: It's just because it's so hard to scout or like
Speaker 1: know what's coming. That's what their secret sauce is. Like
Speaker 1: Joe Miszula said last year the Pacers got swept by
Speaker 1: the Celtics, right handled handled in a four l series,
Speaker 1: and Joe Mozula said, that was our hardest series, Like
Speaker 1: that was the hardest series we played to prep for
Speaker 1: and be ready for because they just stress you out
Speaker 1: in so many ways that you have to be locked
Speaker 1: in for forty eight minutes defensive here they're gonna score
Speaker 1: a lot. And the PACER's issuing in that series wasn't
Speaker 1: that they didn't score. They scored a lot. They just
Speaker 1: couldn't stop the Boston Celtics wit, the best offensive all time.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, necessarily there's a oh, they're gonna
Speaker 1: pull Darius Garland into every action and try to, you know,
Speaker 1: make him defend a screener or make him defend a
Speaker 1: ball handler like the Pacers ball handlers, the Smith, them Hart,
Speaker 1: everybody has gotten so much better at attacking when they
Speaker 1: get by man or you know, taking space in front
Speaker 1: of them to make a defense rotate and they can
Speaker 1: all make enough shots. Now that the Pacers will just
Speaker 1: trust anybody to do anything. They didn't have a single
Speaker 1: thirty point score in a single game in the first round, right,
Speaker 1: They just go from thing to thing and whoever it
Speaker 1: is can score. All those guys have grown in ways
Speaker 1: to make the system work. So it's not they have
Speaker 1: not been as much of a pick on the weak
Speaker 1: point thing. It's not that they're not doing that, but
Speaker 1: they just trust everybody to score and they have the
Speaker 1: depth to do it. So that that was a very
Speaker 1: long winded, non specific answer to say they're not gonna
Speaker 1: attack anything specific. They're not just gonna have this like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, the Calves can't stop this one thing.
Speaker 1: They're just the way they play, that's it. That is
Speaker 1: their stress around defenses.
Speaker 4: And that's one of the benefits of having so many
Speaker 4: high IQ players out there, right, Like they were able
Speaker 4: to read and react and see, you know, what's available
Speaker 4: to them where they are able to put in their
Speaker 4: best work, just like zoom Ai Companion helps us out, Carter,
Speaker 4: don't you dare shake your head.
Speaker 2: Only you can do your best work there.
Speaker 4: Zuomei Companion can help you do the rest, like automatically
Speaker 4: taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to
Speaker 4: your coworker. Available no additional cost with eligible paid plans.
Speaker 2: Were cappy. With Zuomei Companion, you can go as one
Speaker 2: of your better disguise. And that's why I was tickled
Speaker 2: by it because I saw it, but I was like,
Speaker 2: but I don't know if anyone else is going to
Speaker 2: see it coming. So very well done, Sarah Tony. I
Speaker 2: actually do have, you know, one very specific thing I'm
Speaker 2: actually really curious about in this series, and it is
Speaker 2: having to do with Pascal Siakam. He is one of
Speaker 2: the very few players that I saw this season that
Speaker 2: the Cavs had a really hard time figuring out how
Speaker 2: to stop. Uh. He is a special blend of chaotic
Speaker 2: that allows him to to to score on our bigs
Speaker 2: in post situations. I wouldn't say that's what you want
Speaker 2: to build the whole plane out of, but like it's not.
Speaker 2: You know, there are a lot of guys who if
Speaker 2: they try to post up Evan or Jarrett, they're just
Speaker 2: dead on arrival, especially if the post starts like twelve
Speaker 2: feet out. Siakam is an exception to that. And also
Speaker 2: I think Siakam is one of the best positioned players
Speaker 2: to punish the Cavaliers switching scheme that they leaned on
Speaker 2: for much of the regular season because of his post acumen,
Speaker 2: because of his handle where you have to put you
Speaker 2: on the ball, and his movements are chaotic enough that
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to double in a way that
Speaker 2: doesn't leave you really exposed. Like timing the double is
Speaker 2: really hard with that kind of chaotic stop start. He's
Speaker 2: like the way Darius Garland is a stop start player
Speaker 2: when he attacks the rim. That's Pascal Siakam post ups.
Speaker 2: I never exactly know when it's going to start, when
Speaker 2: he's going to actually make his move to the rim.
Speaker 2: He's really physical, you know, it's hard for you know,
Speaker 2: guys like you know, Sam Merril Max Strus who can
Speaker 2: hold their own in others switch situations, like if they're
Speaker 2: running pick and pop. I'm totally cool with Max Struce
Speaker 2: taking seven seconds on Miles Turner, you know, like that's fine,
Speaker 2: That's a perfectly acceptable outcome to me. Less so with
Speaker 2: Siakam so I'm interested in two things. One or the
Speaker 2: Cabs going to switch those actions and let Siakam get
Speaker 2: favorable post mismatches. And then the second thing I'm curious
Speaker 2: about in that Calves win early in the season, the
Speaker 2: one without Haliburton, Siakam was murdering them in the first
Speaker 2: half and they went to a two three zone in
Speaker 2: the second half, and I think Siakam got like three
Speaker 2: shot attempts the rest of the game. Do you think
Speaker 2: that that zone is something that the Cavs can maybe
Speaker 2: lean on in this series, knowing how dangerous Indy can
Speaker 2: be shooting the basketball.
Speaker 1: Ah, the zone comvote. Yeah. So first, for just Siakam,
Speaker 1: he's just he's got a good enough three ball this
Speaker 1: year that's actually like a oh crap, we gotta think
Speaker 1: about that kind of shot as a defense. And he's
Speaker 1: always been money from elbows and in right, like effective
Speaker 1: enough that you're on him there. And so because of
Speaker 1: those two things, you're always sticking to him. And he's
Speaker 1: got a lot of craft right, he can go, he's
Speaker 1: gotten up and under. He hit one on the honest
Speaker 1: in the first round and I was like, how did
Speaker 1: you even get that over the rim? He can fade.
Speaker 1: He's got the post fade that everybody knows, and he's
Speaker 1: like quick when he spins. You can't lean on his shoulder.
Speaker 1: He'll just feel it and get around you. And you
Speaker 1: can't sag off because he'll turn around and shoot over you.
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, it's a two point ten
Speaker 1: foot or most defenses are like, oh hey, whatever, but
Speaker 1: he makes enough of him that you have to panic
Speaker 1: about it, and so even really good defenders have to
Speaker 1: battle with technique. There's a lot of young biggs in
Speaker 1: the NBA that you know, this is just a dear
Speaker 1: I've had for a while that like they don't guard
Speaker 1: post ups that much coming up anymore, with just the
Speaker 1: way basketball is like changed. I don't think Jared Allen
Speaker 1: and Evan Mobley apply to this, but like, that's a
Speaker 1: lot of the games where I think Pascal Siakam's at
Speaker 1: his best, where it's just some like young forward who's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't even know how to do this.
Speaker 1: I've never had to do this before. Why do I
Speaker 1: how are you supposed to stop this mobile? Obviously, Defensive
Speaker 1: Player of the Year knows the tricks of the trade,
Speaker 1: and Jared Allen's amazing, so he can cut up any
Speaker 1: kind of defender because he has so much technique and ability.
Speaker 1: But zones have been a thing I mean so no,
Speaker 1: Haliburn was a big part of it working in that
Speaker 1: game specifically. I wrote a story about this during the season,
Speaker 1: like so much of the zones against the Pacers where
Speaker 1: when bench groups are on the floor, right TJ McConnell
Speaker 1: obviously not thought of as.
Speaker 2: A as a zone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he was in the first round. He would
Speaker 1: just like wheel to the elbow and fling it over
Speaker 1: the Bucks, like over and over again. I thought, what
Speaker 1: is happening? How is this working? But it was but
Speaker 1: like top and really struggled to start the season for
Speaker 1: Deep and Ben Madther and it isn't decisive enough with
Speaker 1: his catch and shooting at times, Like team's been really
Speaker 1: willing to go there, and.
Speaker 2: One guy the ball sticks with yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, teams have been willing to go zone against the
Speaker 1: Pacers bench because of who the units are. But in
Speaker 1: the playoffs one they mix and match more. In two,
Speaker 1: the Calves, the Bucks and the Thunder were three of
Speaker 1: the only teams that were like, yeah, we'll go zone
Speaker 1: against the starters who Cares and it helped that Halburton
Speaker 1: was out, that they lost a very key shooter and
Speaker 1: set up man. But the Pacers, for some reason, every
Speaker 1: so often they see his zone, they're like, wait, what
Speaker 1: what is this sport? What do we do? How does
Speaker 1: you know? And they in the first round they never
Speaker 1: had that problem. They to zone, the'd immediately recognize it,
Speaker 1: they get into their thing, and they'd score against the Bucks.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if they'll be ready for the Calves
Speaker 1: defense because zone defense because of that game that you referenced,
Speaker 1: but it has been a thorn in their side very
Speaker 1: often throughout this season, and the Calves one is just
Speaker 1: different because of their front court size and like even
Speaker 1: does Dean Wade ever mess up ever on defense? Like
Speaker 1: that dude's always in the right spot. His angles are amazing,
Speaker 1: So it's all they're big guys are awesome. So that
Speaker 1: that zone will be better than the Buck zone, right,
Speaker 1: So if it bogs the Pacers down at all, that
Speaker 1: will be a problem. I find the Pacers I have
Speaker 1: confidence because of the way they handle zone in the
Speaker 1: first round, but the regular season record against zone was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we probably need to be better against this. So that
Speaker 1: is certainly something, especially when it comes to Siakam because
Speaker 1: there's five people standing right around you in your favorite
Speaker 1: spots in his zone. To think about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to be fascinated to see kind of
Speaker 4: what defensive strategy the Calves use, because only Miami uses
Speaker 4: more zone than the Calves. The Calves used a ton
Speaker 4: of it in the regular season. They also were incredibly
Speaker 4: switch heavy, and I just don't know if you can
Speaker 4: be as switch heavy when you're talking about a Halliburn
Speaker 4: Sakham pick and roll, like, I think you want to
Speaker 4: fight through that.
Speaker 2: As much as possible.
Speaker 4: Caves for the most part, they trust their guys defensively,
Speaker 4: Like they don't try to hide Darius or Donovan. They
Speaker 4: trust them to stay in front. Sometimes they you know,
Speaker 4: on the switches, they get mismatches, right, Like I've brought
Speaker 4: this up before, but nobody has defended more Jason Tatum
Speaker 4: shots this season than Darius Garland. And that's because Boston's
Speaker 4: going to hunt those situations and Darius, like you know,
Speaker 4: he's giving up a lot of size, but he is
Speaker 4: a very good screen navigator. He does a terrific job
Speaker 4: of that. Donovan's a if you look at the numbers
Speaker 4: is a little less strong when it comes to screen navigation.
Speaker 4: But both of those guys are going to stay in
Speaker 4: front of their guys. I just don't know if you
Speaker 4: want to be in a situation where you're allowing Siakam
Speaker 4: to get onto Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell in those spots.
Speaker 4: I think you're going to try to get guys to
Speaker 4: fight through in those situations. They'll be interested to see
Speaker 4: if they go zone. Also be interested to see the
Speaker 4: difference in how they defend the pick and roll with
Speaker 4: Passal Siakam versus the pick and pop with Miles Turner,
Speaker 4: because I expect that to be two completely different strategies.
Speaker 2: But I think they got to switch that, dude, I
Speaker 2: really do. I agree with that. I agree with the
Speaker 2: Turner one because at the end of the day, you
Speaker 2: look at that heat series, and the story of it
Speaker 2: for Miami offensively other than ah was was that they
Speaker 2: could not crack the Calves shell. You know, they like
Speaker 2: they would switch, or they'd fight over the screen and
Speaker 2: stay connected in front. They just didn't have to go
Speaker 2: to on the ball against anyone on Miami at any point. Really,
Speaker 2: And I think the cave I've said this all year.
Speaker 2: The Calves have not been the best defense in the
Speaker 2: NBA this season, I still believe in their shell defense
Speaker 2: more than any other team, you know, because when because
Speaker 2: that means everything's functioning. And when everything's functioning, you've got
Speaker 2: a mobile or an Allen who is able to switch
Speaker 2: on the perimeter and another rim protector that never had
Speaker 2: to leave the back line in the first place. And
Speaker 2: I think the more you can do that, like, you
Speaker 2: have a talent advantage against this indie team. Sorry, Tony,
Speaker 2: you know, I think this Calves team, you know, has
Speaker 2: more top end scoring talent. So like, as long as
Speaker 2: you don't let that indie machine get worrying, like, you've
Speaker 2: got a much better chance. So like, and I think,
Speaker 2: I mean, I cannot think of a more different outcome
Speaker 2: than like an aj Green Brook Lopez pick and pop
Speaker 2: defended pick and pop. Then you know Max Struz or
Speaker 2: DeAndre Hunter and h and Jared or Evan you know,
Speaker 2: guarding that action. I do think to that end, this
Speaker 2: should be a big Dean Wade series because it should
Speaker 2: be a big DeAndre Hunter at the three series because
Speaker 2: if you're able to put DeAndre on Tyresee and again,
Speaker 2: I don't think DeAndre is like an elite perimeter stopper,
Speaker 2: but that action is so switchable. And if I'm gonna
Speaker 2: die to Miles Turner post ups on DeAndre Hunter, I
Speaker 2: guess I'm just gonna die.
Speaker 1: I just feel like, hey, ask the Bucks about that.
Speaker 1: In Game four they died well, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and sometimes like and that is the thing about
Speaker 2: series is both these offenses are so good. Yeah, sometimes
Speaker 2: they're like they're just gonna win, you know, and like,
Speaker 2: I think you're gonna have I think both teams there's
Speaker 2: gonna be a real test of like, you know, of
Speaker 2: confidence and will agreed to win because I think there
Speaker 2: are going to be stretches in this series where either
Speaker 2: team scores five six possessions in a row and it's
Speaker 2: not because they made because the other team made some
Speaker 2: huge mistake.
Speaker 1: There's been some shocking moments in this NBA Playoffs, some
Speaker 1: crazy game winners. One of my most like, wait, what moments?
Speaker 1: Was you talk about the Cavs shell defense. I look
Speaker 1: at the box score halftime, it's heat calves. Game three.
Speaker 1: The Heat are nine for twenty from deep and they're
Speaker 1: down by over twenty points. I'm like, what happened?
Speaker 2: In the game.
Speaker 1: What what are how could they? How are they? How
Speaker 1: can they not keep going on fire?
Speaker 4: That was the whole series pretty much, with the exception
Speaker 4: of Game four because they just totally quit. But like
Speaker 4: we were sitting there at Carter and I were at
Speaker 4: games one and two, and at halftime of each game
Speaker 4: were like Miami shooting like fifty from three in their
Speaker 4: down ten and you looked at it and it basically
Speaker 4: was they were shooting lights out on contested twos and
Speaker 4: we were sitting there being like, this is going to
Speaker 4: fall apart. You are not going to be able to
Speaker 4: sustain this. You are not getting the shot quality that
Speaker 4: is going to allow you to keep up with the Cavs.
Speaker 2: And I think they just kind of broke after a
Speaker 2: little while.
Speaker 4: They gave it the best shot in games to everyone
Speaker 4: thinks that, Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I
Speaker 4: think even some of their exit interviews reflected that. One
Speaker 4: thing I'm curious about, Tony, is there guys that were
Speaker 4: playing in the first round that you think are going
Speaker 4: to have a lesser or larger role for Indiana going
Speaker 4: up against the Cavs.
Speaker 2: What do you kind of That's a good question. Co
Speaker 2: host thank you very much.
Speaker 1: I've actually been thinking about that, and I'm not really
Speaker 1: sure there should be a ton of shift, not because
Speaker 1: the teams have personnel that's similar, but because they just
Speaker 1: burned a lot of their front core bodies to like
Speaker 1: guardian Us with foulsand be fine with that and so yeah,
Speaker 1: the Calves don't have you, honest, but they have more
Speaker 1: front court size besides, you know, one player, like they
Speaker 1: are going to be big for a lot of the games,
Speaker 1: Like they're not gonna send away Thomas Bryant, Like they'll
Speaker 1: need a backup five to play for sure. Obie Toppin's
Speaker 1: gonna play. Jars Walker maybe would be the guy who
Speaker 1: would play a little bit less, I suppose, but not.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a valuable guy with size that can
Speaker 1: make shots. Ben Sheppard they dusted off because he's one
Speaker 1: of their best perimeter defenders at not allowing blowbys. Hey, look,
Speaker 1: the Calves have too elite ball handling guards. Like they're
Speaker 1: gonna need him to play. McConnell's gonna play, Mathen's gonna play.
Speaker 1: Topin's gonna play. So I don't think so, but I'll
Speaker 1: be curious how the series kind of shifts that, like
Speaker 1: if the Calves, how much do the Calves go to
Speaker 1: whatever their reserve front court ends up being in the
Speaker 1: series or is it just like forty minutes each for Allan?
Speaker 2: It won't be That's yeah, I don't think Kenny. Kenny
Speaker 2: is just you know, he's been really committed to a
Speaker 2: deep rotation. With that said, it's been you know, if
Speaker 2: you look at just the box score and you do
Speaker 2: a quick glance, you'll see, I mean, until Darius got hurt.
Speaker 2: You know, Darius got hurt, he went down to nine.
Speaker 2: But like when you look at games one and two,
Speaker 2: you see, all right, he played ten men kind of
Speaker 2: he played eight, and then like a short shift for
Speaker 2: Dean in the first half and a short shift for
Speaker 2: Okoro in the first half, and that was kind of
Speaker 2: what he you know, so he played ten nominally, but
Speaker 2: he really played eight. But like, I don't think you're
Speaker 2: going to see a lot of these forty minute windows
Speaker 2: because even when he does that, the Cavs binch is
Speaker 2: so good, so vital that you know, it's just really
Speaker 2: hard to get your starters to forty plus minutes. If
Speaker 2: Ty Jerome is playing twenty six, twenty seven, DeAndre Hunter's
Speaker 2: playing twenty six twenty seven, like sam Merrill's playing twenty
Speaker 2: two to twenty three, Like all of a sudden, you're
Speaker 2: just kind of like running out of minutes to yeah,
Speaker 2: a portion.
Speaker 4: The thing is doesn't feel like it's a bench lineup
Speaker 4: when you always have one of Darius and Donovan out there,
Speaker 4: one of Jared and Evan and.
Speaker 1: The best player in the league, Ty Jerome.
Speaker 4: I was about to say, and to help, you know,
Speaker 4: bridge those minutes, you have DeAndre Hunter and ty Jerome,
Speaker 4: who were two of the you know, top three starting
Speaker 4: quality players right right, and then oh who who were
Speaker 4: going to throw you know, at small forward. Well, we
Speaker 4: can still have Max Drews out there, we can have
Speaker 4: Dean Wade out there. We can go to Isaaca O Corral,
Speaker 4: we can go sam Merril. I am interested to see
Speaker 4: who Kenny goes to because as.
Speaker 1: I was wondering, that is this the series Kenny act?
Speaker 1: Because tell me if I'm wrong, it feels like every
Speaker 1: time he has to make a decision, he's like, I
Speaker 1: want the shooter. I picked the guy who can shoot better,
Speaker 1: Like is this the series? He like kind of indexes
Speaker 1: towards defense a little more with those decisions I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: I think if I'm Kenny, because like I think I
Speaker 2: was really really pleasantly surprised by Sam Merrill in the
Speaker 2: last series. It's good say I was disappointed by Isaaca Coral,
Speaker 2: but like it wasn't. It was very clearly not going
Speaker 2: to be his series very quickly, And I do think
Speaker 2: that they are going to need to index on positional
Speaker 2: size a little bit more in this. And he's just
Speaker 2: so big in that the Pascal post ups loom. You know,
Speaker 2: Jarris Walker is just rugged, super physical. Obi Toppin can
Speaker 2: be a terror in transition, He's not like a post
Speaker 2: Up threat. But like they just have a lot of
Speaker 2: big dudes who even Matherins like a very big wing.
Speaker 2: And I do wonder if this is a Dean series
Speaker 2: more than a Sam series, so maybe Sam still plays.
Speaker 2: But like I think positional size for defensive purposes makes
Speaker 2: a lot of sense, especially if you're getting your playmaking
Speaker 2: somewhere else. But like I also just think like you're
Speaker 2: gonna need to be able to attack them in multiple spots.
Speaker 2: That's why I kind of like more minutes of DeAndre
Speaker 2: at the three playing a lot alongside Darius Donovan. Tie
Speaker 2: two of those guys at all times, just you can
Speaker 2: constantly be attacking because I have the ball. Pressure from
Speaker 2: Indy is my That's like my number one like subplot
Speaker 2: for Indy defensively in the series is how much pressure
Speaker 2: they put on you on the ball. So, like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, it just doesn't. It doesn't feel like a
Speaker 2: SAM series to me. But I was pleasantly surprised at
Speaker 2: how much that Miami series was a SAM series. So
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't think the first round to be a
Speaker 1: JAFF series. He played very well, And I mentioned six
Speaker 1: bench guys when you asked me about that. They'd never
Speaker 1: played all six in one game, right, the first two games,
Speaker 1: no Ben Shepherd, then it was no Jeris Walker, but
Speaker 1: then Mattheren got hurt, so they got both those guys in,
Speaker 1: and then in game five Thomas Bryant at the floor
Speaker 1: for one possession for rebounding purposes. He was the guy
Speaker 1: effectively out. So they never actually played eleven. It's always
Speaker 1: been five specific bench guys. If you made me guess
Speaker 1: fully healthy, who the Pacers reserve would be that doesn't play,
Speaker 1: I would guess to start the series, he'd be jarifs
Speaker 1: Walker but it wouldn't surprise me if after like one
Speaker 1: or two games, are like, Okay, we can't stop him anyway,
Speaker 1: let's just go small in the front court and try
Speaker 1: to score like crazy, and then Walker and Top and
Speaker 1: the Siaka make up the front court.
Speaker 2: So are you suggesting Bryant would take Walker's minutes?
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, they I think you just need a center, right.
Speaker 1: The Cavs just are gonna have a big five on
Speaker 1: the floor the whole time. And I called the Goldilocks number.
Speaker 1: When you get the right number of minutes, like seven
Speaker 1: minutes of Thomas Bryant is probably fine, just hustle, get boards,
Speaker 1: but his defense is not very good, and he you know,
Speaker 1: either shoots one three er doesn't shoot at all in
Speaker 1: the playoffs usually, So it would not surprise me if
Speaker 1: they very quickly like okay, that was a mistake, but
Speaker 1: I would I would start with the size route and
Speaker 1: see how it goes. Walker is obviously big, but you know,
Speaker 1: and they've survived with Walker, Top and Siakim as the
Speaker 1: reserve front court a lot, and Siakam plays with the
Speaker 1: bench groups more than any other pacers starter, So that
Speaker 1: would not surprise me if they went to that first,
Speaker 1: but I think it will be between Bryan's and Walker
Speaker 1: for their last spot and Shepherd, you know, no one
Speaker 1: really thinks of him, but like that, he's just one
Speaker 1: of their better defenders and you're going to absolutely need
Speaker 1: that all the time in this series.
Speaker 2: One thing that I just looked up because I was like,
Speaker 2: I feel like Bryant played a healthy amount against the
Speaker 2: Calves this year. Played more minutes against the Calves than
Speaker 2: any other team this season, played seventy minutes.
Speaker 1: That's right, because he they didn't play the Calves till
Speaker 1: after they traded for him, and then he played a
Speaker 1: ton in those last two games when it.
Speaker 2: Was like the five games, the.
Speaker 1: Seating the well, the Pacers seating, the Calves seating was
Speaker 1: over the seating wars. I don't even know what to
Speaker 1: call those. For the Calves. It's the seating seeding for
Speaker 1: the Pacers. There's the seat seating games for the Calves.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Calves, that was basically March for them. Unfortunately,
Speaker 4: Boston was unable to keep up so that the Calves
Speaker 4: were a little lackluster for the last month.
Speaker 1: I was being a psycho for like weeks, being like, oh,
Speaker 1: the Calve's going to be trying to get home court
Speaker 1: advantage in the finals in these games and they're gonna
Speaker 1: care at all, how's this gonna go. They did not
Speaker 1: end up caring about that, so it.
Speaker 4: Was benefited one of those weird scheduling things where they
Speaker 4: played seventeen games in a row where they didn't play
Speaker 4: in the same city twice in a row. This is
Speaker 4: basically a seventeen game road trip, and I think going back,
Speaker 4: it was actually like twenty two out of twenty four
Speaker 4: games basically from like February through March. So it was
Speaker 4: a tough, tough time with not a lot to play for,
Speaker 4: and I think that showed up in the results. I'm
Speaker 4: fascinated for the Cavs to see basically who this eighth
Speaker 4: through nineth guy is on the team, and maybe even tenth,
Speaker 4: you know, as a result of that, because Dean Wade
Speaker 4: moved ahead of isaacle Core in the rotation mid series,
Speaker 4: and I really like what that length can do. But
Speaker 4: if we are still rolling out Sam Merril as that
Speaker 4: eighth guy, it becomes tougher to play Dean Wade in
Speaker 4: those spots. It becomes tougher to play that length because
Speaker 4: if you're always going to have one of Darius and
Speaker 4: Donovan out there, and ty Jerome comes in. That means
Speaker 4: Sam Marril has to play at small Ford, which means
Speaker 4: you are going to be smaller. Sam has done a
Speaker 4: terrific job. Those lineups have absolutely crushed it. I think
Speaker 4: that there's a possibility that they continue to crush it
Speaker 4: in the series. But you are giving up size in
Speaker 4: those matchups, so I'm curious to see how Kenny uses
Speaker 4: those guys where they slide into the rotation. But I
Speaker 4: think I agree with you. I think for the most part,
Speaker 4: I don't see Inde changing up their rotation. I don't
Speaker 4: see the Cavs changing up their rotation a whole bit.
Speaker 4: I think it's going to be a pretty typical series
Speaker 4: of to feel it out games and then we see
Speaker 4: where the adjustments go from there.
Speaker 2: I have a question for you, fellas, Okay, a little
Speaker 2: segment I'm inventing on the fly, which is who is
Speaker 2: the player that the opposing fan base is most likely
Speaker 2: to hate by the end of the series.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you guys are talking about Sam Merrill.
Speaker 1: He hit like five threes in a row two feet
Speaker 1: from me when the Cavs are in any of that
Speaker 1: third last game of the season. The Pacers fan base
Speaker 1: is in my mentions like are they ever going to
Speaker 1: guard Gary Trent? Are they ever gonna guard a j. Green?
Speaker 1: So the profile of that kind of player suggests that
Speaker 1: Sam Merril has a good shot of that crown, and
Speaker 1: also Max Streus is a good shot at that crown
Speaker 1: for similar reasons. Max Strews is a forty plus three
Speaker 1: point shooter who I feel like goes seven for eight
Speaker 1: or two freight to like him, So there's a very
Speaker 1: good chance that he has like three seven freight games,
Speaker 1: like I hate that Struce guy you never misses.
Speaker 2: He's also a talker and he's very physical.
Speaker 1: That will be good again in a Pacer series. The
Speaker 1: Pacers are not afraid to respond to talkers, and that I'm.
Speaker 2: It's going to make him even more annoying because and
Speaker 2: that is fine, to.
Speaker 1: Be clear, I think that is fun for all everybody talks.
Speaker 1: Get your yappin on.
Speaker 2: I tell you who I'm prepared to hate, and it's
Speaker 2: Andrew nim Hard. I think he is going to be
Speaker 2: a thorn in their side, Like I feel like every
Speaker 2: good minute Indy has in this series, Andrew nim Hard
Speaker 2: is going to be involved. Yeah, I think his physicality
Speaker 2: is a serious His ball pressure is really really important.
Speaker 2: I think, especially give in that the Cavs are going
Speaker 2: to start so many possessions with bigger wings on Halliburton
Speaker 2: means I think they're going to do a lot of
Speaker 2: stashing of Darius and Donovan on nim Hard, and he's
Speaker 2: going to have to create shots for them and consistently
Speaker 2: get buckets just to create, you know, because like you
Speaker 2: can't just do the Haliburton pick and roll in perpetuity.
Speaker 2: Like to your point, a big part of this team's
Speaker 2: DNA is how many places they can kill you from.
Speaker 2: I think nim Hard has just the right amount of irritation.
Speaker 2: He's an irritant on defense and hits really ballsy shots
Speaker 2: on offense, Like he's a shoots better than his percentages
Speaker 2: guy in the right series, and like, yeah, that's the
Speaker 2: guy I'm prepared to like, you know, ball my fist
Speaker 2: up and shake well. I can never say I could
Speaker 2: never say, yeah, yeah, I'm not about to go what
Speaker 2: Matther and I can see myself, I can see myself
Speaker 2: not being thrilled with him. I think who I'm prepared
Speaker 2: to hate by the end of the series is TJ McConnell.
Speaker 2: I just feel like there's gonna be a stretch where
Speaker 2: that guy gets five steals in a quarter and I
Speaker 2: just get annoyed by his face. I think that's the
Speaker 2: way this goes.
Speaker 4: But harder to your point about Nemhard, I think it's
Speaker 4: important for people to realize. I tweeted this out before
Speaker 4: the podcast, but Basketball index as Nemhard as one hundred
Speaker 4: percentile perimeter isolation defender.
Speaker 2: He's awesome, dude, He's nailed.
Speaker 1: So good.
Speaker 2: He is nails. He is so damn good.
Speaker 1: He is better than his percentages.
Speaker 2: Guy.
Speaker 1: Like most of those guys, it's because the shots they
Speaker 1: make are important, right, so you remember them or they
Speaker 1: like sit with you. Like he had a huge three
Speaker 1: and overtime in Game five for the Pacers. No one
Speaker 1: remembers it because Halbert scored a lot after that, Like
Speaker 1: it was a massive shot, Like all of his iconic
Speaker 1: moments are, like he hit a buzzer beater over Lebron
Speaker 1: from how many feet away? He had a Game three
Speaker 1: game winner in the playoffs, like this thirty two percent shooter,
Speaker 1: Like he just he's lights out when it matters. And
Speaker 1: his defense is just absurd ever since sprunts and not
Speaker 1: embarrassed him, but like was the first guy that made
Speaker 1: them hard look like a not good defense their last
Speaker 1: year in the playoffs. He's even leveled up since then.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned like putting a guard on him. A
Speaker 1: lot of teams will put their horses under on Aaron
Speaker 1: Nee Smith, and that's become harder to do now too,
Speaker 1: because he's got a little bit of waggle going towards
Speaker 1: their m now. So I wonder if the cat.
Speaker 2: Dude share me if you if you ask me Carter, like,
Speaker 2: what are you really nervous about? It's Nie Smith and
Speaker 2: nim Hard swinging a game by being chaotic, getting in transition,
Speaker 2: beating up the Cavaliers. They're so physical at the point
Speaker 2: of attack, dude, it's nuts bad. I feel like the
Speaker 2: Calves like got a taste of that with Davion Mitchell
Speaker 2: in terms of that physicality at the point of attack,
Speaker 2: but it's like you're going up a notch on the
Speaker 2: on the physicality level. Like, I feel like those two
Speaker 2: are closer to what the Cavs had to deal with
Speaker 2: in Orlando last year with Suggs and Harris and Franz
Speaker 2: and all these dudes just beating you up. Like those
Speaker 2: guys are so tough.
Speaker 4: It's gonna be interesting, man. I think this series is
Speaker 4: going to be awesome. Before we get you out of here, Tony,
Speaker 4: let's get some serious predictions and well, well you are
Speaker 4: in hostile territory, you go first.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've been leaning towards the Calves since this was
Speaker 1: revealed as going to be the series. The length is challenging.
Speaker 1: I tried to be the guy who's like, I don't
Speaker 1: pick it in six because of the close out on
Speaker 1: the road, So Calves six feels right to me. I
Speaker 1: would be shocked if it was a short series. I
Speaker 1: also said that in the first round, and then it
Speaker 1: was a short series. So you never really know in
Speaker 1: the NBA these days. Maybe I'm underselling the Calves in
Speaker 1: They're one hundred and thirty eight offensive rating. Calves five
Speaker 1: is I assume going to be a popular Calves four.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: I am going to go Calves six or seven. But
Speaker 1: I picked Nixon seven last year and the Pacers beat them,
Speaker 1: So that does not mean I am right or good
Speaker 1: at predictions.
Speaker 2: Carter, Uh, I'm going Calves in five here? Oh wow? Okay,
Speaker 2: I like I but with an important caveat that I
Speaker 2: think four of those wins could be tough as as hell.
Speaker 2: I do not think this is a dominant Cavalier series
Speaker 2: where they're just winning. If they win two games by
Speaker 2: twenty or two games by twenty is two bigs. If
Speaker 2: they win two games by fifteen, ten to fifteen, like,
Speaker 2: I'll feel really really good about this series. I respect
Speaker 2: the heck out of this Indy team. You know, they just,
Speaker 2: to your point earlier in the pod, justin they just
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of weak links. They play a
Speaker 2: lot of guys who are pretty darn good. I think
Speaker 2: they are a little short on guys who are uber elite,
Speaker 2: which is why I think the Calves should have the
Speaker 2: advantage in crunch time in some tight games down the stretchers.
Speaker 2: Is why I'm picking Calves in five. But like I
Speaker 2: said this to Jason Tempf on his pod earlier today
Speaker 2: that if you were to like make me pick like
Speaker 2: a likelihood, I would chunk Calves in five, Calves and
Speaker 2: six and Calves and seven in a very tight odds window.
Speaker 2: Like I don't think that.
Speaker 1: Me people like that, I'm gonna steal that I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm stealing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, enjoy. You know, I think you'd have to take,
Speaker 2: you know, a little tier lower for Pacers in seven,
Speaker 2: you know, because I do think the Calves should be
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly likely to win the series based on all the
Speaker 2: metrics that we have in front of us and all
Speaker 2: the tape from round one. But I think it's going
Speaker 2: to be really, really hard work and it's going to
Speaker 2: be honestly, just way closer to the test we thought
Speaker 2: Miami might be able to give this Calves team in
Speaker 2: terms of making them win the series.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I've been going back and forth between five
Speaker 4: and six. I think there's going to be a game
Speaker 4: in this series where India is just flat out playing
Speaker 4: like the better team.
Speaker 2: If we sweep them, that would be It's not I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 4: I think I think Indy's going to outplay the Caves
Speaker 4: in one of these games, and whether it's five or
Speaker 4: six is going to come down to is there a
Speaker 4: wild shooting variance game in either direction?
Speaker 2: Like it's no.
Speaker 4: I think back to the first loss that the Caves
Speaker 4: had against Atlanta, where you got thirty two wide open
Speaker 4: threes and shot twenty on them. If that happens, or
Speaker 4: if Indie shoots like, you know, sixty seventy percent on
Speaker 4: like on their threes, which we've seen them do in
Speaker 4: versus the Cavs in the past, I can see that
Speaker 4: extent of the series. I'm there's no way I'm going
Speaker 4: to let you pick fewer games than me, though, So
Speaker 4: I'm going to go five.
Speaker 2: That's that's where I have to go. You're you're not
Speaker 2: going to do that to me. Here's the thing about
Speaker 2: Justin Tony is I pick. I try to pick these
Speaker 2: series intellectually. He picks them in a way that won't
Speaker 2: get him yelled at by our listeners because he's a coward. No,
Speaker 2: I'm a man of instinct. I am a man of guts.
Speaker 2: I am a man of feeling.
Speaker 4: I ignore my brain when I'm making picks.
Speaker 2: I go with my heart that much as clear.
Speaker 4: And it makes me right more frequently than you didn't
Speaker 4: you pick Milwaukee.
Speaker 2: Let's let's put you. I think you did. I think
Speaker 2: I said it would be closer than people thought.
Speaker 4: And I said it would I said it was five games,
Speaker 4: and he's going to clean them.
Speaker 2: I picked Calves and seven and Stormlando when everyone else
Speaker 2: was saying it was going to be five or six.
Speaker 4: And I picked Calves over the heat in four. I
Speaker 4: also told you that Detroit was going to win the series.
Speaker 4: And you know, if if the last two minutes was
Speaker 4: called correctly, if the if the last few minutes was
Speaker 4: called correctly, they would have already won the series.
Speaker 3: So sorry that you have to hear us take tim
Speaker 3: Hardleay was not failed anyway. Continue Oh wow, yes, I
Speaker 3: disagree with everyone, including NBA officials who.
Speaker 1: Said, yeah, was a foul our bags and Josh Hart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have literally no ground on the planet to stand on.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm sorry you had to witness mom and dad fighting.
Speaker 4: He's unfortunate, but every now and then we got to
Speaker 4: do it, Tony. Before we let you out of here,
Speaker 4: let the people know where they can find you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. If you're watching at Tony, ours is on
Speaker 1: the screen. But that is my Twitter handle. I finally
Speaker 1: have like a professional, boring one with just my middle
Speaker 1: initial in there, so that's where you can find me.
Speaker 4: Mine is still nonsense. It is slapping the caves in Canada,
Speaker 4: and that's what it is. Thank you so much for
Speaker 4: having us, or for coming on. Make sure you guys
Speaker 4: are checking out Lockdown Pacers throughout the series.
Speaker 2: Always good to.
Speaker 4: Be getting that perspective from another team. Big thanks to
Speaker 4: everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Make sure you guys
Speaker 4: like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know
Speaker 4: when we're going live. If you're listening to you a
Speaker 4: podcast and you want to support, leave us a rating
Speaker 4: the review, subscribe unsubscribed, resubscribe and help cook those books.
Speaker 4: If you want to be part of Chase Doown's exclusive
Speaker 4: discord chat Sunday screenshow there view to Chase down pot
Speaker 4: at gmail dot com. However you choose the supports, we
Speaker 4: really do you appreciate it. Make sure you guys are
Speaker 4: staying safe out there.
Speaker 2: Until next time, Go Cavs