WEBVTT - Lee Abrams 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.280 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.840 My guest today is legendary radio programmer Lee Aprils, who 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.560 literally created the A O R format that's album oriented 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.279 rock for you young uns, and was not only the 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:29.760 chief programmer at XM Radio, created the channels there on lead, Great, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.479 to have You, Great, to be here, Fantastic. Okay, So 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.199 what's the future of radio in today's world? Well, I 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.760 think it's, um, it's gonna be just a big pie 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.600 that's split up between satellites and streaming and whatever other 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:47.239 technology comes along. Excuse me. I think the problem with 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.880 the restrial radio is they're stuck uh in the nineteen eighties. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.960 I mean, it's just insane and to me, it's unlistenable. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.480 And I think unless they go through some radical transformation 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.200 uh in their programming, um, they're gonna be a pretty 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.880 small part of the pie over time. Okay. So if 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.839 you were in charge, what would you change? Well, i'd, uh, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.600 first of all, explore a whole variety of new formats. 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.840 Some of the formats that around the year today were 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.640 created decades ago and may have been valid then, but 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.160 really haven't aren't that valid now? You're seeing even some stations. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.360 There's one in Chicago, and there's some other emerging stations 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.319 that aren't taking some risks and uh playing a wide 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.400 range of music within their format rather than the hundred 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.120 and fifty tested songs and getting great results. And I 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.560 can see any album rock world, I mean getting back 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.120 to what it was all about in the first place, UH, 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.320 which was you know, expansive, taking the major artists and 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.600 opening them up like when was the last time you 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.080 heard low Spark of High Heeled Boys or Hurricane or 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:58.200 just so many travels going through a list uh from 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.360 the mid seventies just for fun, and I'd say about 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.640 a fifteenth of the songs that were on there that 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.080 were very popular get played today. And I think they 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:09.680 need to go into creative overdrive as far as what 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:14.359 happens between the records. With all of the competition that's 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.280 out there today, it's amazing that they're creatively on autopilot. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.640 You still hear two for Tuesdays and block party weekends 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.840 and things that were Coolber October and fifty years ago. Awesome, 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.400 But I mean, come on, and even the names of 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:36.679 the channels, you know, Fresh, they sound like detergents. Um. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.000 So I think it really when they started calling a 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.200 big variety, this is Is there any positive connotation to variety? 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.520 It's ridiculous. Yeah, there's I think an FCC law that 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.760 says you have to be when you launch the States, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.320 you have to be the new and most variety from 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:57.440 the seventies, eighties and nineties or something goofy like that. Um, 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.120 but I think, um, unless you're making a lot of 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.280 money doing what you're doing, this station will need to 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.840 blow it up and UH bring some inventive people in 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:13.080 there and realize that it's uh in almost two thousand 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.160 twentiess not one anymore. And I think a lot of 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.799 them are relying on research that I think is uh 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.320 generally invalid. I recalled times that we UH in a 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.280 single market, did three research projects from different companies and 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.400 they were all completely different. So and if the research 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.320 was so accurate, we wouldn't be they wouldn't be in 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.960 the situation here and now, which just uh. They don't 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:38.920 have fans, they have users. When was the last time 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.400 you saw a bumper radio bumper sticker in a car? Well, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.920 I just remember, you know, kalo s here be used 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:46.480 to be in the seventies and eighties, there'll be a 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.640 competition where in Los Angeles, of course, between the stations, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.720 and they would give out bumper stickers and you would 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.200 know when the show was in town. Not only do 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.840 we don't have those bumper stickers, were not clued in. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.000 It wasn't that. It's not longer the culture the way 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.920 it used to be. Know, and you listen to the stations, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:06.120 there's no connection with the concert events. I saw you 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.400 know e l Oh recently a couple of weeks ago, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.400 and uh no station presence, and nobody talked about it 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.200 on the air a couple of weeks in front. And 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.320 when a new record comes out, even by an established artist, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.839 chances are, at least in the rock area, it doesn't 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.880 get played or it doesn't get highlighted. I mean, you know, 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.960 Springsteen sting Yes have come out with the new records 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.680 then maybe not be as magical as their original ones, 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.360 but I think you owe it to at least give 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.159 it a spin and talk about it and inform the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.000 listeners about it. And that doesn't happen anymore. They've taken 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.960 their eye off the music ball, the creative ball, all 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.680 the balls. Let's start from the beginning. Sure, of course, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.240 when there was only terrestrial radio. We were locked in. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.919 Especially in smaller markets, there weren't that many opportunities. But today, 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.039 the younger generation lives in an on demand culture. I 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.120 always say people say, kids today have you know, a 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.359 short attention span. I don't leave that. They just have 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.640 an incredible ship detector. They click until they find something 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.839 they want and then they might stay on that forever 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.599 or click again. You know, every year somebody dies in 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.920 Asia from playing video games three days straight. So with 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:19.000 inherently advertising on terrestrial radio, will the younger generations, millennials 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.200 and gen Z who never grew up with good radio, 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.320 would they listen to this kind of radio? No? I 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.760 doubt it. I think, Uh, the smart broadcasters again, if 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.279 they're not doing really well, uh what they have should 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.920 focus forty plus where the natural audiences. I remember when 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.160 we first started XM, we're talking to people. A lot 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:40.960 of people said that, oh it's gonna be the kids 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.360 that are really into satellites and all that, And we 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.599 talked to younger people and the general responses, you know, hey, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.360 radio sucks. What do I want? You know, a hundred 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.680 channels of what sucks? You know. I talked to somebody uh, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:54.920 you know forty and up. And they were like, oh 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.080 my god, you mean a station that would bring back 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.800 the magic of any WFM that I grew up with, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.839 or uh, you know WSM and Nashville if fair country 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.120 fan and I said yeah, and I said, oh my, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:11.200 sign me up. Okay. So in today's radio market, there's 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.920 Top forty, which is basically pop and hip hop, mainly 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.480 hip hop, and there's certainly so R and B stations 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.160 which are basically hip hop hip hop, and there are 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:26.560 some adult contemporary stations. But the the alternative stations, the 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:31.120 rock stations, the NPR stations, what they play almost never 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:36.840 crosses over, right, I know. That's uh, that's an interesting observation. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.080 It's it used to be where the those formats fed 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.200 Top forty exactly. And so is this the problem with 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.640 Top forty or is it problem with rock? No. I 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.320 think it's a problem with rock because they're not exposing 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.040 a lot of the new uh and interesting material that 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:57.719 could cross over. Um. Yeah, I think it's rocks problem 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.480 because I think a lot of these younger skewing stations, 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.840 if they these songs got played just like they did 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.280 in the old days, Uh, they'd see it in their 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.840 their research and their phones, and they'd probably added. But 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.760 so you're saying that if we played rock on top forty, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.720 it would ViRGE in. It's just a matter of exposure. Yeah, 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:23.400 and again selective the right songs, but absolutely um okay. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.480 But many people will say rock is dead. Where is 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.520 what's your view point on that? Well, I think it's 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:36.000 on life support. Um. I think rock as rock as 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.080 a genre is very much alive, but it's all based 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.240 on the old stuff. The Lords. You go to an 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:45.640 Eagles concert and you know, there's a million people there, uh, 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.560 but they're really you know, reliving their path, which is fine. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.560 And uh that's why I see all these you know, 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.080 great concert attendance for these bands, and not much in 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.200 the record sales department. So I think rock is alive 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.800 in a well, it's just there's not a lot of new, interesting, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.360 experimental type stuff coming out. Now. You're a person who's 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.880 famously literally been involved with these bands like yes, yes, 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.720 So if you were going to give direction to young 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.760 rock acts today, what would you say, Well, it depends 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.160 on the band. In the case of yes, no, no, no no, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.920 I'm talking about younger acts. Forget these legendary acts that's 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.520 a whole separate topic. But if it was someone you know, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.000 where the players don't have a history, they're starting out, 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.240 whether they're you know, eighteen to thirty five, so to speak. Players. Yeah, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.320 I don't think you can understand the future until you 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.080 understand the past. So I would get them just immersed 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.400 in some of these classic records to where they really 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.280 learned the spirit and soul behind them, and uh in 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.360 the musicianship and the quality of the musicianship and the 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.280 production and the cleverness that a lot of these most 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.360 of these records had. Uh. So I would immerse them 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.200 in that and see what they come up with. And 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.760 then what records would you recommend? Oh my god, it's 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.040 quite a long list. Every think from the Dark Side 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:05.679 of the Moon. They s album that mentioned favorites. Um, 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:07.960 I would even go back to you know, Harvest, Neil 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:14.720 Young certainly, particularly the late Arab Beatles stuff, Um some Rush, 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:21.080 Um you can tell my my favorites, the Genesis, Crosby 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.160 Stills and Nash Okay. So what was so magical about 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:30.240 those acts? Well, I think um they had they balanced melody, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:38.439 amazing melodies, just memorable melodies with incredible musicianship and fantastic production, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.240 and the arrangements were just clever. You don't see the 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:49.080 clever arrangements anymore as much anymore, um and I think 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:53.720 they they're sort of experimental. Everybody was trying to outdo themselves. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.120 I remember in the late sixties everybody was trying to 0:09:56.120 --> 0:10:00.800 out use an arms race in in amplification and technology. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.240 And one band would have the sized marshal and excellent 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.679 there one band would have as face shifters and and 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.720 so there was this desire to be new and different 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.160 and to push it. And I think you heard those 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.640 and all those records. They evolved. But when I asked 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.360 whether it was the time, the were just a year 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.880 a part in age. So we came of age. Let's 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.520 call it with the Beatles. Okay. Now, in the sixties, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.720 radio was the tribal drum. If you want to know 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.960 what was going on, first was AM, then it was FM. 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:34.760 You wanted to know what's going you literally listen to 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:39.200 the radio station. But ultimately in the eighties moved more 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.560 to video and it certainly blew up backs into in 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.600 a way that made them worldwide uh uh superstars. But 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.160 was it a moment in time that can't be replicated. 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.000 I think it can. I think the whole culture and 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.480 that spirit will never be the same. It won't be 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.959 seven again. But I think we're in a similar politics 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.280 going cultural situation now that is makes it ripe for 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.800 for this. I mean, there's practically civil war on the streets, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.000 you know, the uh. I'd like to say that information 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.800 is the new rock and roll. There's so much going on. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.160 I've never heard it put that way expand that yes, okay, 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.200 back back in the day, um rock and rolls would 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:27.920 drove culture. It was just what everybody what what it 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.680 uh determined what people look like, you know, how they talked, 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.319 hey boss man, and how the you know, how they acted. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:41.200 It was just the drumbeat of an era. And now 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.720 I think it's more information instead of the walkman or stereo. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.880 We've got our devices, instead of the water cooler talking 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.440 about who's better Jeff Becker, Eric Clapton, there's discussion on 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.680 you know, Trump and is it gonna be Biden. Um, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:03.320 there's uh um certain swagger that the artists had that 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.400 you don't see anymore. Now. It's the politicians and the 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.440 you know, they seem to have the swagger. So I 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.439 think it's just a um it's where what was driving culture? 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.839 You know, it was rock and roll and now it's 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.760 more information. Okay, let's not because I I used put 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:20.000 it in a slightly different way, and I wonder if 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.680 it's the same Rock drove of the culture. Certainly from 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.600 nineteen sixty four to the late seventies got a reinjection 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.000 as a result of MTV. Then starting around or so, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.520 we had twenty years were tech drove the culture. You 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.320 were constantly people first had to get computers to play 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.200 on a O L. Then of course we have the web. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.480 There was always a new app, there are all these things. 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.240 Now it's solidified. We have what are called the fang stocks. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:50.360 They control everything, you know, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google, uh 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.199 and certainly Microsoft to agreed. Now, So I was saying 0:12:54.679 --> 0:13:00.320 that politics drive the culture. But is that too narrow? Yeah? Uh, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.240 I think it's a big, huge part of it. But 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:09.120 I think, um, information as a whole, even even just 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.599 surfing the web and finding out things that and statistics 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.480 that people never even cared about years ago is another 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.760 component I could say. And I you know, I've I 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.559 lost many years to the web, and I'm still losing 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.480 because you get on there, it's just amazing stuff. It's 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.520 all there. It's incredible even to this day. Everything And 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:29.280 so I think that's a big part of it, just 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.280 the access to all this information. And uh, but let's 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.320 stay right there, because one thing I know is, starting 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.400 about five years ago, we had to internet cacophony. I 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.240 mean I was there very early on the web because 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:42.800 I had a free subscription to a O well when 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.400 you're paid by the minute with Warner Brothers Records now 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:51.080 called Warner Records. Interestingly, but as I say, we lived 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:56.000 through these things. Now it is almost impossible to reach people. 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:01.640 They're bombarded with messages. How would you reach people, whether 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:06.200 it be information, music or what. Yeah, I think, um, 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.520 the shock factor, it's got to be shockingly different. It's 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:17.880 sort of like family Guy is shockingly different. Um. I think, um, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.600 even the Tool Record sort of shockingly different. I'm a 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.040 huge fan of the Tool Record. I love it more, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.760 I listen more, just get into it. That's experimental. They're 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:34.160 pushing boundaries. Um. But you know, of course Howard isn't 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.840 the shock jock anymore, but still, you know, he has 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:41.160 a bit of a shock factor going. So I think, um, 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.040 in movies. You know, the shocking movies cut through, So 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:46.360 I think you have to be Is that why The 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.600 Joker is successful? Not that I've seen it, but just 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.760 reading about it, Yeah, I think so, it's just shockingly 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.000 I haven't seen you know, they say it's like taxi 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.120 driver on steroids. But going back, so we live in 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.880 an era where you kill somebody in the morning, it's 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:06.640 news to about four o'clock if you're lucky. So is 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.160 shock inherent in what you're doing? Or do you have 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.120 to plan it? Oh? No, I think you have to plan. 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.240 It has to be in in your DNA to be 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.880 you know, shocking. And that doesn't mean evil or anything. 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:23.040 It means just like, wow, the fun shocking. Okay, So 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.960 let's just assume you have something shocking in the first 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.440 decade of this century, people would find it. Today, you 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.760 can be great and people won't find you. That's true. 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.320 I think you just gotta go where your target is, 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:41.120 and it's on the Internet's on Facebook, just blanketed and uh, 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:42.840 you know, it's a marketing question. I think it's different 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.680 for every product. But I think you just gotta go 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.960 where your target audience is and uh, let him know 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.840 about it. And slap him over the head with it 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.480 and hope that the you know, buzz is enough to 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.680 cut through. Okay, wouldn't you say? And I granted it 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.280 was a smaller world in many ways, but in the 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.000 late sixties, certainly in the very early seventies, no marketing 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.720 was necessary. No, it was all self marketing. Uh, come 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.720 out with a great record, and uh it takes care 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.360 of itself. I mean there was some that, you know, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.440 flipping between the cracks. I can't think of any offhand, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.920 but generally, yeah, you come up with a record. That's 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.720 the power of rock and roll as a culture. People 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.480 were talking about it. And you hear that new band 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.320 called Spirit. Oh man, you know, really, I'm gonna go 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.120 buy that? And uh so there was a Well, since 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.160 you've been on the creative end, this may be a 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:40.840 little bit out of your purview, but if you were 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.840 advising an act today, do they need an album? Do 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.360 they want an album as opposed to singles or singles 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.480 on a regular basis? You know, I think they do? 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:54.200 And um to really explore and to uh, I mean 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.840 we're talking about not somebody's after the quick, quick hit, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.480 but the band that wants to establish themselves. Yeah, I 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:05.040 think absolutely, Uh creates something that's a statement and you 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.840 know the thing that will flow from that. But then 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.720 you've got to get out of this mind set of 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.880 you know, three minute disposable songs based on fashion and 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.280 look and uh, what's what's hot? This what this week's 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.800 flavor is and get back to where artists are making 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.280 real statements. Uh. And again that's one of the things 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.080 I like about Tool. You listen to the whole thing, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.960 it's it's really a statement, right. But you know the 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.919 other thing is talking about young pop and hip hop acts. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.639 First thing they'll say, is there a brand and the 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.159 music that not only will they play privates will have 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.520 a perfume line, a clothing line. Is that a good 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.000 thing or a bad thing? Um? No, I think it's 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:51.920 just reality. Uh. I think personally, Uh, great artists don't 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.639 need that. You know, they can rely on the music 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.920 and what that does to people. But they might say 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.760 they can only make a limited amount of money. Yeah. True, Um, 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.000 but I think the the headphones lines and the cologn 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:11.240 and it's just part of the there's a distraction. Okay, 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.879 So just being very specific back in the air, we're 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.200 talking about sixties nearly seventies. Literally the acts were God 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.720 and what they said frequently in print and Rolling Stone 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.840 we really paid attention to. So does all this, you know, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.360 what's in the number, all the you know extras other 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.680 than the music, Does that hurt credibility? I think so? Yeah. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.440 Here it's musical credibility. It's probably uh has its commercial 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.640 upsides and uh can help the bottom line for the brand, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.800 but musically it does nothing. And uh, okay, So let's 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.120 go back here we're talking about radio formats. Do you 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:50.840 believe if Top forty radio broadened its playlist it would 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:55.800 become more popular? Uh, that would have more listeners? Yeah, 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.680 I think it would. Um, but I think again, it's 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.560 not their fault that nobody's feeding him. What do you 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.960 mean nobody's feeding well, you know, the rock stations aren't 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.520 giving him great songs to play, and and the country 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.399 stations a little bit, but mainly the rock and alternative 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.400 stations aren't, you know, creating the hits that it would 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.560 appeal to a mass appeal station like a Top forty. Okay, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:29.320 let's go to streaming. Now. All these streaming sites Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Deezer, Title, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.960 they're inundated with playlists. If you were chief programming director 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.480 at one of these streaming services, what would you do? 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.960 Um Well, it's funny because I did a whole thing 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.119 on that. First of all, I get into news and 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:48.600 information to um, well, it would be very specific because 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.359 of course Spotify is a standalone company. Stock has been 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.720 up and now it's down, and they went into podcasts, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.040 So if they went into information, what would it look like? 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.680 It would be, um, a wide range of different information 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:09.760 information genres from international to local, to food to so 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.160 a whole bunch of different choices, but all uh, talk 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:18.040 driven and um so you're talking about essentially radio stations. Yeah, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:23.119 information on all those topics. Just to be clear, because 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.760 on Apple they have Beats one Radio Zane Low and 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.720 they have other famous DJs. Uh, that is not something 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.359 I listened to because that's not how I listen to 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.800 radio anymore. I like. I mean, you know, satellite, you 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.360 have a hundred odds stations. You have so many options 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.160 on the streaming service. You can go what you want 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.080 if you're going to have these stations. Because one thing 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.639 about talk talk is in the moment. It's not something 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.760 that can be pre programmed. Etcetera. Do you believe people 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.919 would listen to those stations if they were purely information 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.600 no music, Yes, I do, and it might be an 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.560 older audience. And uh, but I think that's part of 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:05.359 the completeness they need. And i'd also i'd have radio 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.119 channels on there, you know, for people who don't just 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:14.479 want to vege and listen to a great um aggregator. Well, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.360 then let's go to Spotify specifically, No tune in has 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:24.640 varying radio channels, but a lot of these good, right, Okay, Uh, 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.960 but that's that was gonna be my question if you 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.400 go on all of these. Uh, certainly Spotify the Big 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.320 Cahuna has a Pandora like feature where you put in 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:39.160 a track and it will generate a station for you. 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.680 What is that good batter? Otherwise? Oh, I think it's 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.040 just part of it, you know, part of the mix. 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:51.679 That's that's probably good. But I'm thinking great, uh radio 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:56.240 stations that are against super targeted and have amazing production, 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.320 theater of the mind and just take people places. Let's go. 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.560 John Marks was on x M. He's a country programmer 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.960 and now he went to Spotify a couple of years back, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.600 and one could say he's got the best choices in 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.200 country music. And you can go through a couple of 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.240 his play Let's say this is what he's listening to. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.040 Are you saying that if he went back to being 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.439 a DJ, that would be a great edition. Yeah, it 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.360 might not be the same format. It might be more 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:29.240 production heavy where there's magic between the songs. Uh, in 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:34.159 form of you know, interstitials and uh yeah, and he 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:40.440 talked and uh uh present a passionate viewpoint of why 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:44.560 he picked the music. Okay, so why do production and interstitials, 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:49.320 etcetera hook the listener? Uh? Theater of the mind. It's 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.800 just magic if done right, which it isn't lately, but 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.520 uh in the golden days, and I think it's still valid. 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.520 It just transports you. It takes something from you utility 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.679 to to magic. And I'm not talking about promos you know, 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:09.720 listen now and win um, but just really beautiful little 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:17.600 segways that are in full stereo and are just cinematic 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:21.800 and elevate the whole experience to uh to a higher level. 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:24.360 Do you think that you know, if let's say one 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.840 of these outlets was going to do this, how many 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:32.040 music stations would they need? I would say, Um, you know, 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:36.800 ideally probably about a hundred. Okay, So like satellite radio, okay, 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:41.080 after but that you know, satellite radio, which people pay for, uh, 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.480 is very labor intensive. So if a streaming service was 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.920 to hire these people cost a lot of money. Well, um, 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.639 you know, but when I was at U at XM, 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.960 some of the better channels had one person. Remember our 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:59.879 Top Tracks channel had one one guy. Our sixties channel 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:04.280 two DJs and one of them was a program director. 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:07.960 And I remember it was a channel of fine tuning, 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.320