WEBVTT - Trump's Defense & Voter Robocalls 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:10.039 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.600 They have nothing as it relates to a case other 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.400 than I guess an overzealous attorney general who would destroy 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.000 all of New York business by going after transactions where 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:20.960 there are no victims. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.880 Donald Trump's legal team kicked off its defense in New 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.760 York State's civil fraud trial with a return appearance by 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.840 his eldest son, Don Junior, who raved about his family's 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.600 real estate assets and called his father an artist with 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.760 real estate. For six weeks, New York Attorney General Letitia 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.400 James has presented her case alleging at the former president 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.840 inflated the value of his assets by billions of dollars 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.040 for more than a decade to do banks and insurers 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.800 into giving him better terms. Though Donald Trump Junior was 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.360 relaxed on the stand and joke with the judge unlike 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:04.200 his father, his testimony did echo his father's, illustrating a 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:09.000 central defense argument that the Trump properties are extremely valuable 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:14.000 and the company's annual financial statements, if anything, underrated them. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:17.959 And outside the courthouse there was the familiar no harm, 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:19.240 no foul refrain. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:22.320 But you guys have got to think about the precedent 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:24.920 that this case sets if an attorney general can years later, 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.600 after all parties of transactions are paid back in full 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.840 with interest, making hundreds of millions of dollars where they 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:33.959 have no complaint where they said they wouldn't have done 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.200 anything differently, where every witness, as it relates to my 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.280 brother and I, every witness that the Attorney General has called, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.399 have said that my brother and I were not involved 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.120 in the statement of financial condition. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.560 Joining me is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:56.160 maccarter and English. So Bob Don Junior waxed poetic about 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:00.200 his father's genius for real estate and the family's real 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.000 estate holdings. Why did the defense recall him? 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.000 I think Donald Trump Junior was attempting to present a 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:13.200 more relaxed, less contentious approach to the judge in their 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.600 defense case in chief, and what the judge allowed him 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.960 to do was to really paint a picture, literally of 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:25.400 the Trump organization. They showed glossy magazine type images of 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.640 the inturiers and exteriors of various Trump properties around the world, 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.040 and the judge, even when so far over the objection 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.920 of the State AG's office, who allowed Donald Trump Junior 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.880 to give a history of the Trump family going back 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.760 to the nineteen hundreds, to talk about how his great 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.280 grandfather had made a fortune during the Klondike Gold Rush, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.000 and his grandfather had developed apartments in Brooklyn and Queens 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.360 and really, from the Trump defense standpoint, trying to set 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.880 the stage for just how the Trump organization began decades 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.519 ago and where where it was today and ultimately bringing 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.320 the case up to today's time, and pointing out that 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.280 his father was really a visionary, somebody who saw where 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.440 the real estate market was going in Manhattan long before 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.800 others could see it. And underlying all of that was 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.640 really an attempt to try to convince the judge or 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.760 perhaps the public, that Donald Trump is being misunderstood and 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.160 being unfairly treated here because he is more of a 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.480 visionary than he is a businessman, in the sense that 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.280 he is not someone who gets down to the nuts 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.320 and bolt of the financial filings. He is more of 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.400 a so called big preture person who is able to 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.960 identify real estate trends before anybody else and to develop 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:45.600 them for great financial gain. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.960 So the Attorney General alleges that Trump's Los Angeles golf 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.440 course was overvalued by almost fifty million dollars. Donald Trump 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.680 Junior focused on the beauty of the course and the 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.760 views of the Pacific. But then the eight lawyers said, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.600 didn't the eighteenth hole fall into the ocean? The thing 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:10.000 is the Trump say that valuations are subjective. But they're subjective, 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.000 and you know, a little puffery and then there's wildly 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:15.840 unconnected to reality. 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.080 Well, you're right. The heart of the Attorney General's lawsuit 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.120 are documents known as statements of financial conditions, which are 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.920 the balance sheet that the Trump organization used to demonstrate 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.359 the value of its properties and mister Trump's network so 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.000 they could obtain loans and insurance rates. And essentially, what 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.880 the AG's office has a legs here is that the 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:42.000 Trump organization inflated the value of the Trump properties in 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.839 order to do banks and ensures into giving them better terms, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.360 reaping a two hundred and fifty million dollars gain in 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.640 illegal profit. According to the AG's office, the heart of 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:57.680 the Trump organization's defense is that these financial statements contain 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.520 a disclaimer that essentially as they're entirely worthless and that 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.480 no bank should rely upon them. And part of what's 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.640 gone on over and over again during the course of 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.719 this case, this has been argued multiple times for this judge, 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.479 and that actually has gone up on appeal twice, and 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.440 the judge has been affirmed. But the defense over and 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.680 over again is saying that these financial statements cannot be 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.200 relied upon. They were dealing with a sophisticated bank in 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.880 Deutsche Bank, and Deutsche Bank did its own due diligence 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.839 rather than relied upon these financial statements in making decisions 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.640 about whether or not to extend loans to the Trump organization. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.160 And Trump keeps talking about, both inside the courtroom and 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.880 outside the courtroom, that disclaimer. He sort of presents it 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.560 as a get out of jail free card. The judge, 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.200 as you say, has rejected the disclaimer argument over and over. 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.200 Why do you think the defense keeps raising it? Do 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.240 you think it's more for the public than for the judge? 0:05:58.279 --> 0:05:59.680 He said at one point, it's worthless. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.200 The disclaimer defense, which is really at the heart of 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.560 the defense strategy here, is being played not only to 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.960 the court and ultimately on appeal, because that's where this 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.840 case is headed, but also to the court of public opinion. 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.520 And it's thankly what the Trump defense argues is that 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.400 this is the case with no victims and no injury. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.920 They point out that Deutsche Bank was a sophisticated lender. 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.159 They are apparently going to put on Deutsche Bank witnesses 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.919 who will testify as to how eager they were to 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:33.560 lend money to the Trump organization. They will point out 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.680 that Deutsche Bank made millions of dollars from the loans 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.360 that they made to the Trump organization, that the Trump 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.920 organization never defaulted on any of these loans, never had 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:48.160 any late payments, And ultimately, the question here is whether 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.680 or not there is a victim, whether or not anybody 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.200 was harmed, or whether this was simply business as usual 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.320 in the real estate industry. That's the contention that this 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.360 judge has already rejected, but it will be an issue 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.039 that will go up on appeal at the end of 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:02.520 his case. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.599 Central to the AG's case are the statements of financial 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:11.440 condition that Trump had his accountants sent to lenders that 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.120 detail his assets and their values, and the State of 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.320 New York alleges he inflated his net worth by as 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.960 much as three point six billion dollars a year to 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.080 get better terms on loans and insurance, so Now, when 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.880 Trump was on the stand, he acknowledged he had a 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:32.640 hand in preparing the financial statements, and Ivanka Trump said 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.320 that that was her father's signature on the financial statements. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.840 Eric Trump said they were accurate, even though the judge 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:43.800 determined that they were fraudulent. So the ag has that 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:45.480 part of her case sewn up. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:46.240 Yeah. 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.560 I think one of the problems with the defense case 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.600 is that it's a bit of a circular argument on 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.080 this point. What the Trump organization has argued is that 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.680 it relied on the professional advice of its accountants who 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:05.400 prepared those financial statements and signed those statements, in reliance 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.440 on the accountants submitting the information to them. When the 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.760 accounts took the stand, they said that they prepared the 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.760 statements based by information they got from the Trump organization. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.480 And so it is, as I said, a bit of 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.880 a circular argument here, where the accounts are saying, we 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.520 did prepare those statements and present them to the upper 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.240 management of the Trump organization, the Trump organization executives Donald 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.600 Trump Junior and Eric Trump and former president travalse they 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.560 relied on the professional advice of those accountants. But then 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.080 the accountants testified during the trial that they created those 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.959 financial statements based by information that came from the Trump organization. 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.560 So at the end of the day, it's hard to 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.640 see here how this judge will not hold the Trump 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:53.920 executives responsible for making sure that the information in those 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:59.160 documents was materially accurate. And while there could be errors 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:03.000 in those documents, and to some extent, the significance of 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.440 those errors and the pervasiveness of them over the years 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.040 is something that I think the judge will take into 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.280 account ultimately in rendering a decision in this case. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.840 And the judge has already found that fraud was committed, so. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.680 Now the only issues that are left are a couple 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.640 of claims which go to whether or not there was 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.480 intentional fraud, and then ultimately what are the penalties that 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.120 will be imposed by the court, which could include a 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.200 fine of up to two hundred and fifty million dollars, 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.120 could include barring former President Trump and his sons and 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.960 the Trump organization from operating in the state of New York. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.120 So the stakes are enormously high, but at this point, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.640 the trial is all about the penalties essentially, not about 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:45.520 the liability. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.400 See coming up next to the Bloomberg law show. I'll 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:53.440 continue this conversation with former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz. Does 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.480 the defense have its eye on an appeal rather than 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.760 the judge's decision? Here, I'm June Grasso, and you're listening 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.559 to Bloomberg. This week, Donald Trump's legal team kicked off 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.440 its defense in New York States civil fraud trial. I've 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.480 been talking to former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz. So when 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:16.160 Donald Trump was on the stand, it was a wild 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.880 day in the courtroom. I've never heard of a defendant 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.440 or anyone being on the stand and acting that way 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.200 toward the judge. You know. He would say things like, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.120 this judge is not going to give me a good ruling, 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.640 this judge is against me. And he would ramble and 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.320 yes or no questions. He wouldn't answer with a yes 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.600 or no, And the judge asked the Trump attorneys to 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.760 try to get their client in line. It appears that 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:46.040 the defense is going to recall Donald Trump in its case. 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.280 What do you think the point of that would be? 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.680 Well, I think in bringing former president back to the 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.160 stand during the defense case, it gives the defense an 0:10:55.240 --> 0:11:02.000 opportunity to present a more coherent and thematic defense through 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.440 the eyes of former President Trump. It will allow them 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:11.000 to basically present a scripted and rehearsed presentation where former 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:15.760 President Trump will be permitted on direct to basically answer 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.400 the questions that his own lawyers are presenting to him 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.400 and present, I think, a much less contentious view of 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.760 this case and paint a picture for the public and 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.160 to some extent, the judge of exactly what his role 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.160 was in this organization. And thankfully, I think at the 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.679 heart of the defense is that when you run an 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.160 organization like the Trump organization, with as many financial statements 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.640 and complicated financial deals involving real estate all over the world, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.120 he cannot be expected to know the intricacies of all 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.199 these statements. And he has testified that he has made 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.560 suggestions about the valuations of various properties. But the Trump 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.280 defense is that they were just that suggestions, and ultimately 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.679 he relied on his accountants to give him acurate information. 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.920 So not only did Trump sort of egg the judge 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.000 on when he was testifying, and he's egged him on 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.120 by saying things, you know, in violation of the gag 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.560 order about his staff, but it seems like the attorneys also, 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:23.920 but his attorneys have also been very contentious and argumentative 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.160 with the judge. So it appears that they're making this 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.720 into an issue for appeal. But what does a judge 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.760 have to do for an impellate court to reverse a 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.600 decision of his I mean, how bad does it have 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:37.960 to get in the courtroom. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.079 One of the things you're hearing a lot out of 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.360 the Trump defense team and from former President Trump himself 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.920 is that this judge is biased. And what it really 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.280 causes the question is if the judge simply rules against 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.000 you based on the evidence that he hears a trial, 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.600 that does not make him biased. The bias comes in 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.839 if the defense can demonstrate that this judge had prejudged 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.240 this case, that this judge had made other statements relating 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.079 to forever President Trump or to the Trump organization prior 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.160 to this case beginning, or that the judge was considering 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.720 evidence outside of what was presented at court in rendering 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.719 his decision. So I think what we're seeing here as 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.679 part of the defense strategy is that they have already 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.400 reached the conclusion that they are likely to lose not 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.640 only on the liability phase, which has already happened, but 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.080 they're also going to be hit with some very severe 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.720 penalties at the end of this case from this judge, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.920 and they are already looking beyond the trial court to 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.240 the appeals court, trying to lay the groundwork for a 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.160 successful appeal. And part of a successful appeal sometimes is 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.600 to try to go the judge into doing something that 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.520 the Court of Appeals will decide is reversible error that 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.640 the judge will say something that he shouldn't have said, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.160 or make a decision that he shouldn't have made, or 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.760 make some kind of impertinent comment that creates an air 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.720 of bias, and then ultimately that can be used to 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.840 try to reverse the results of the case when ultimately 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.319 this judge renders his decision. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.880 So when former President Trump was in the courthouse, he 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.880 would hold these I call them mini press conferences outside 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.680 the courtroom talking about how unfair the case was, talking 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.200 about you know, the disclaimers, et cetera, et cetera. And 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:30.040 also the Attorney General, Letitia James, would go outside and 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.000 give a statement to the media. This is another thing 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.840 that stands out, these statements in the middle of the 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.360 trial as very different from most cases. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.640 This is clearly a case that we've really never seen before. 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.600 The rules that you typically see enforced in any court 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.000 room in this country have really been relaxed in this case. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.880 The general proposition that underlies any case, whether it be 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.680 civil or criminal, in this country is that the litigants 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.800 are to litigate their case case in the courtroom, that 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.760 statements serving made in the courtroom, that the record is 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.960 created in the courtroom, and the judge will typically draw 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.080 a pretty bright line on that and not allow defense 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.200 lawyers or defendants or prosecutors to try their case in 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.080 the court of public opinion. So it is very unusual 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.960 to see these statements being made by defense lawyers and prosecutors, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.560 and the defendants themselves making these statements during the course 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.200 of the trial. But again, this is an unusual case 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.360 with unusual issues and unusual parties, And so I think 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.640 we're seeing a case that is being tried in a 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.080 way that we've never really seen before. And what the 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.160 judge is trying to do here, I think, is to 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.080 try to make a decision that ultimately will stand up 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.960 on appeal whatever he ultimately decides, and not give the 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.960 defense grounds try to reverse ultimately the decision in this case. 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:00.640 If one of Trump's criminal trials goes forward while he's 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.400 still campaigning for the presidency. Will the trial judge be 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:09.040 able to control him at least in the courtroom, especially 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.200 because there'll be a jury present unlike this case. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:12.960 Yeah. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:14.840 I mean, you raise a good point, And every judge 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.520 is different. Every judge is given a certain amount of 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.280 latitude as to how they want to run their courtroom. 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.280 So some judges will let defense lawyers get away with 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.920 a lot more than other judges. Again, the eye is 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.800 always towards doing it in a way that's fair and 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.080 that does not unduly hamper the defense or the prosecution 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.320 in a way that creates an issue on appeal. But 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.080 the focus is always more on the defense than the 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.400 prosecution for purposes of appeal. And so I think in 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.600 this case, we're seeing this judge give former President Trump 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.280 on the defense team wide latitude to tell their side 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.320 of the story and even give sort of an infomercial 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.760 about the Trump organization during the course of the trial. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.640 In the criminal trials, other judges may decide to handle 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.280 the case differently and to try to draw brighter lines 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:07.040 and enforce rules more rigorously in terms of what they're 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.000 going to allow defense lawyers and defendants to stay outside 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.879 of the courtroom. One of the challenges for any of 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.800 the judges handling the upcoming criminal trials in terms of 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.440 setting rules and limiting the statements that could be made 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.120 outside of the courtroom is that a judge can only 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.040 enforce those roles ultimately by holding a witness in contempt 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.080 if that means finding the witness or potentially jailing the 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.639 witness if a defendant directly violates a judge's ruling on 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.840 a repeated basis. The challenge here for these judges is 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.000 that while they may impose fines, putting for our President 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.240 Trump in jail during the tendency of a trial is 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.359 going to be extremely difficult for them to do, and 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.520 so ultimately one of the tools in the arsenal of 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.400 judges in order to try to rein in what may 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.520 be perceived as it had really defendant is likely not 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.120 available to them during these So I think we're going 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.119 to see judges trying to walk a very fine line 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.200 trying to make sure that they don't let their courtroom 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.119 get out of control. That's something that every judge is 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.639 very mindful of. They are the ones who control their courtroom, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.000 and you don't want to have a prosecutor or a 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.040 defense lawyer or a defendant run a muck in your courtroom. Remember, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.960 these will be jury trials, unlike the trial that's going 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.399 on in New York now with the AG's office, and 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:30.040 so how a judge handles his or her courtroom in 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.720 front of those jurors is going to be critical. The 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.520 judge is the final word on all of the legal rulings, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.320 and in order to show command of the courtroom, a 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.520 judge has to control the defense, has to control the prosecutors, 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.960 has to control the defendants. It's going to be very 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:50.080 interesting to see how each of these judges handle that challenge. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.080 And a challenge it will be. Thanks so much, Bob. 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.800 That's Robert Men's a partner met Carter in English. Coming 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:00.320 up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, robocalls targeting thesevoters 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.119 with misinformation may turn out to be legal in Michigan. 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.159 I'm June Gross. When you're listening to Bloomberg mailman, voting. 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.040 Sounds great, but did you know that if you vote 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.800 by mail, your personal information will be part of the 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.960 public database that will be used by police to starts, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.919 to track down bold warrant and to use our credits 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.440 our companies to collect outstanding debts. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.720 About twelve thousand residents of Detroit got that robo call 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.879 in twenty twenty, falsely claiming that police, creditors and the 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.320 CDC could use mail in voting data to issue warrants, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.760 collect on debts, and push mandatory vaccines. It was part 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.520 of a campaign of misinformation by Republican operatives Jack Berkman 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.760 and Jacob Wall to deter black Detroiters from voting in 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:53.000 the twenty twenty presidential election. The Michigan Attorney General filed 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:58.240 charges against them, including felony voter intimidation, but Berkman and 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.520 Wall are asking the Michigan's Supreme Court to toss those charges, 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.280 claiming the US Constitution gives them the right to put 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.160 out those misleading robo calls. Joining me is First Amendment 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.320 expert Eugene Volik, a professor at UCLA Law School, is 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.480 this conflict the role of the state to protect voters 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:24.760 from intimidation and the Constitution's protections for speech political speech? 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760 Is this at the heart of a lot of US 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:28.800 election laws. 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.280 Depends what you mean by intimidation, So there's no doubt 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:37.560 that trying to intimidate voters by threatening violence against them 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.000 is a crime, and there's no First Amendment defense for 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.240 threats of violence. On the other hand, courts have generally 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.399 been quite skeptical, especially in recent years, of attempts to 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.880 police false statements in election campaigns. So there have been 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:59.119 laws that ban knowingly full statements in election campaigns outright lies, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.439 and the courts still struck down those laws, chiefly because 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.960 they basically put too much power in the government's hands 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.359 to decide what is true and what is false in 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.320 an election campaign, with too much risk of kind of 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.960 political enforcement. And part of the problem with the law 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.520 in this case is that, at least in the government's 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:24.920 understanding of it, it applies to basically trying to get 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.480 people not to vote or to vote differently through either 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:34.320 possibly misleading statements about possible risks to them, or perhaps 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.160 times the government's just any statements that essentially use fear 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.400 in order to change people's votes. That's a very broad category, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.480 especially given that the statute here talks about attempt by 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.919 means of menace or other corrupt means or device to 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.840 influence and elector's vote. So it looks like under the 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:58.320 government's theory, if there was a message sent out as saying, 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:03.919 if you vote for Trump, he's going to send your 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.320 children off to some war. Let's say that's an attempt 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.240 to use fear, it's possibly an attempt to use misleading statements. 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.200 He's going to do that. How do we know he's 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.800 going to do that? So generally speaking, most courts would 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.560 say that's not something you can police for that the 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.200 government can police for in elections. And yet, under the 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.280 state's theory in this case, it's possible that the law 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:28.600 is as broad as that. 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.119 During your World arguments, the Michigan Deputy so Listener General 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:37.040 said the law only prohibits false statements about the voting process, 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:41.240 the procedures of voting, and not those that impact which 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.879 candidates get support. So you think that the law is 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:46.000 much broader than. 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:48.680 That, Well, let's look at what the statute says. It 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.440 says a person shall not attempt, by means of bribery, 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.600 that's not an issue here, menace or other corrupt means 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.960 or device, either directly or indirectly, to influence an elector 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.960 that means voter in giving his or her vote, or 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.120 to deter the elector from or interrupt the elector in 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.800 giving his or her vote at any election held in 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.880 this state. Nothing there says this only has to do 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.720 with all statements about the mechanics of voting, or in 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.280 this case, about the dangers of voting, such as claims 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.760 that if you vote by mail, the government will do 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.640 bad things to you. There's no limitation there to these 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.679 statements about mechanics of voting. It covers any state that seeks, 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:33.200 either directly or indirectly to influence an elector in giving 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:35.760 his or her vote, so that is, to stay in 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:39.120