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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace as Arson. Investigators continued to

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Speaker 1: search through what's left of the Powell home. The medical

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Speaker 1: examiner now says seven year old Charlie in five year

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Speaker 1: old Braiden Powell suffered chop injuries to their head and necks.

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Speaker 1: The sheriff says their father, Josh Powell, then started the

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Speaker 1: house on fire. They found two five gallon cans of gas.

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Speaker 1: One of them was with the bodies, the other one

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Speaker 1: we believe was spread throughout the house. There was accelerants

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Speaker 1: throughout the whole entire house. Police say. Before he carried

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Speaker 1: out the murder suicide, Powell donated his son's toys to

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Speaker 1: charity and left instructions about his personal effects in multiple emails.

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Speaker 1: He sent some emails out to family and a pastor

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Speaker 1: and some other people, making sure that everybody knew that

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Speaker 1: he was gone, that he was the one that did this.

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Speaker 1: He had put a plan in motion and he carried

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Speaker 1: it out. Powell had been under police scrutiny following the

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Speaker 1: suspicious disappearance of his wife, Susan Cox Powell from their

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Speaker 1: Utah home in December two thousand and nine. Six days ago,

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Speaker 1: he lost a battle with Susan's parents for custody of

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Speaker 1: his sons. You were hearing our friend at CBS, Ben Tracy,

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Speaker 1: in the last days a major advance in the case

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Speaker 1: regarding Susan Cox Powell and her beloved boys, Charlie and

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Speaker 1: Braden Powell. I mean, see, Grace, this is crime stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I remember like it

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Speaker 1: was yesterday when Susan Cox goes missing. She had been

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Speaker 1: having so many problems with her weirdo husband Josh Powell

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Speaker 1: and his freaky father in law, but she stayed in

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Speaker 1: the marriage because of her two boys, Charlie and Braden.

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Speaker 1: And then one night about midnight, husband Josh Powell says

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Speaker 1: he takes the two little boys camping in the freezing cold.

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Speaker 1: Listen to his explanation, Why take your two young sons

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Speaker 1: camping after midnight, freezing cold temperatures. Well, we just go

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Speaker 1: out and do things that are fun. But it's after midnight,

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Speaker 1: you know it was. Shouldn't your son's be sleeping? Weren't

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Speaker 1: they sleeping? People who know me know that time is

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Speaker 1: hard for me to keep track of. I tend to

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Speaker 1: be spontaneous. I do things in the spur of the moment.

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Speaker 1: Why not call work the next morning to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I was out camping. I'm not going to be in today.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, Saturday was a blur. I was convinced

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Speaker 1: it was still Saturday. Convinced it was still Saturday, my

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Speaker 1: rear end. That's a load of bs. And amazingly, that

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Speaker 1: night he takes his two little boys, little boys out

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Speaker 1: camping at midnight in freezing cold temperatures. Amazingly, that same night,

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Speaker 1: his wife Susan Powell goes missing. She has never been

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Speaker 1: seen again, nor has her body been found. Now, how

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Speaker 1: is it that, with her missing and his flimsy explanation,

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Speaker 1: he is allowed to see the boys? Why was he

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Speaker 1: allowed to see the boys? What was de facts for

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Speaker 1: the State of Washington Thinking Department, Family Children's Services, CPS,

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Speaker 1: Child Protective Services? But they led him. They let the

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Speaker 1: boys stay in the home. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at NBC. In two thousand and nine, Powell was

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Speaker 1: named a person of interest in his wife Susan's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: He was never charged with a crime, but in September

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Speaker 1: lost custody of his boys to Susan's parents, allowed only

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Speaker 1: supervised visits. I think he was very selfish and that's

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Speaker 1: why he took the kids. Um, if he couldn't have them,

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Speaker 1: no one could have them. Police say. Before his boys

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Speaker 1: died in the fire, Josh get them both with a hatchet.

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Graves is Pal's a strange sister. The thought of

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Speaker 1: those baby suffering, and they must have because they weren't

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Speaker 1: dead when they when the explosion was done, they suffered

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Speaker 1: and they died. The heartache and panic from Sunday still

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Speaker 1: vivid for that social worker two opened the door on

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Speaker 1: the kids were one step. They had a meet at

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Speaker 1: five and seven. They were one step. They had him

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Speaker 1: me and he slammed the door on my Hey, the

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Speaker 1: social worker's husband says his wife is devastated at the

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Speaker 1: loss of Charlie and Braden. She had, of course bonded

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Speaker 1: with these boys. She had taken them to a number

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Speaker 1: of visits before and was very close to them. And

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Speaker 1: it the fall, as I say, was the devastating. This

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Speaker 1: happen our friends at NBC. Earlier you were hearing ABC

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Speaker 1: an ABC interview with the dad Josh Powell. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: even deserve that title. Dad joining me an all star

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Speaker 1: panel and I'm going to kick it off with the

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Speaker 1: attorney for Chuck and Susan Powell, high profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of Seattle. And Bremner and Bremner, let's just get right

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Speaker 1: down to it. I you know how I feel about

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Speaker 1: Social Services, about Child Protective Services Department, Family Children Services.

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Speaker 1: I think they all ought to go to jail because

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Speaker 1: I have had it up to my eyeballs with children

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Speaker 1: not being supervised and ending up tortured and dead dead,

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Speaker 1: and in this case same thing. And Bremner, why were

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Speaker 1: these children even having visits with a father who killed

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Speaker 1: his wife? I mean, isn't it true, Ane Bremner. When

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Speaker 1: the boys were asked, where's my mommy? Just you tell it, Anne,

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Speaker 1: What picture did they draw of mommy? They had one

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Speaker 1: of her in the back of the car, in the

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Speaker 1: back of a van, in the trunk of the car.

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Speaker 1: They talked back in mommy being in a mine. And

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Speaker 1: of course they were witness. Wait wait wait, Anne, and

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Speaker 1: Bremner is with me and she is a renowned trial lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and Bremner just you just just spit it out like

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Speaker 1: it said. I've turned on the cold water no in

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Speaker 1: my kitchen. And Bremner and I still have it up

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Speaker 1: when the children, I think we're in first or second grade.

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Speaker 1: They drew a picture in my family and there I am,

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Speaker 1: of course, wearing my black tights and a pair of

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Speaker 1: boots and a brave shirt and my hair all crazy,

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Speaker 1: and there's David in his workoutfit, and they put happy

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Speaker 1: Mommy's happy Mommy, This Mommy, that Daddy. This. I'm not

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Speaker 1: in a car trunk. That is not how they drew me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's just pause right there. Tell me slowly and

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Speaker 1: Bremner what the picture was the boys drew of the

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Speaker 1: last time they saw mommy. They had a picture basically

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Speaker 1: of her in the trunk or back of a car.

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Speaker 1: And remember and the trunk and the trunk, she's not

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Speaker 1: in the way way back watching a movie on the

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Speaker 1: in the car video, Mommy stuffed in the trunk. And

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Speaker 1: it's a terrible case, Nancy. I mean, I don't think

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Speaker 1: we need a shrink to tell me what that picture means.

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Speaker 1: But I just happened to have one of the country's

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Speaker 1: foremost forensic psychologists with me, doctor Daniel Bober. I mean, Bober,

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Speaker 1: no offense, but I think we all know what it

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Speaker 1: means when the little boy's picture of mommy and she's

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Speaker 1: in the trunk and Daddy and the boys are driving,

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Speaker 1: and then they say, where's Mommy. She's in the what

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Speaker 1: they say and the mine shaft or the crystal marnship,

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Speaker 1: Mommy was in a Mommy's in a mine. Mommy was

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Speaker 1: looking for crystals. And then he had a drawing on

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Speaker 1: the family outing show Susan in the trunk of a car. Okay, Bober,

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Speaker 1: you're the shrink. What does that mean? Yeah, Nancy, you

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Speaker 1: don't need a psychiatrist to figure this one out. I

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Speaker 1: mean very often these pictures are representative of kids feelings

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Speaker 1: because they can't verbalize their feelings and so they use

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Speaker 1: it pictures to represent what they're feeling. So this is

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Speaker 1: something that's pretty straightforward. It doesn't require a lot of interpretation.

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Speaker 1: So explain to me, Anne Bremner, how in the H

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Speaker 1: E Double L does Daddy with the picture of Mommy

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Speaker 1: in the car trunk? How in the H E Double

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Speaker 1: hill does he get visitation? And now the boys are dead?

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Speaker 1: Social Services was part of this crime stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: the man the kilgrin, I could got the kilken and

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't let me in the door. The social worker

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Speaker 1: who brought seven year old Charlie in five year old

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Speaker 1: Braden to their father Josh Powell's home. Immediately called nine

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Speaker 1: one one A little boyfriend a house and as an

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Speaker 1: adult man, he took a visitation and he bought out

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Speaker 1: the house and a kid. From the beginning, it was

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Speaker 1: clear this was no accident. And you think he might

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Speaker 1: have done it intentionally. Yeah, Police say Powell planned the

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Speaker 1: double murder a day before, purchasing ten gallons of gas,

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Speaker 1: transferring seven thousand dollars out of his bank account, even

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Speaker 1: giving away his children's toys. Oh this is Josh. I'm

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Speaker 1: caring to say goodbye. Pale then left this chilling voicemail

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Speaker 1: with family and friends twenty minutes before he torched his home.

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Speaker 1: I am without and I'm not able to go on anymore.

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Speaker 1: I'm to everyone. Oh, oh please just spare me. You're

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, You're not sorry. He murdered your wife, Susan,

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Speaker 1: and you got away with it, and then you murdered

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Speaker 1: your two little boys, Charlie and Braden. And the devil's

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Speaker 1: henchman is Social Services, child Protective Services because they went

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Speaker 1: along with these visits. And I don't care if you

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Speaker 1: say supervised visits, supervised schmoopervice. If he wanted to kill

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Speaker 1: these children, we already know he's a murderer, then a

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Speaker 1: single woman, unarmed is not going to stop him. What

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Speaker 1: we know now is there has been a major development

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Speaker 1: in the case. And joining me right now, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Seattle, the lawyer four Chuck and Susan

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Speaker 1: Powell and Bremner, And what is the development. We're suing

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Speaker 1: Child Protective Services in the state of Washington. Pray the Lord,

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Speaker 1: Praise they Lord. They're finally going to be held accountable. Now,

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Speaker 1: I hear you say, sue sue that civil court. Only

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Speaker 1: in criminal court can somebody go to jail. I think

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Speaker 1: they should go to jail. But this is a start.

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Speaker 1: And Brenner tell me about the lawsuit that Susan Powell's

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Speaker 1: family is bringing against child Services. It's a case alleging

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Speaker 1: that the state and Child Services fail to protect the

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Speaker 1: kids from Josh Powell. And it's a bigger issue, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: which is they've always had an emphasis of reunifying families

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Speaker 1: at any costs versus looking at the bestest interests of

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Speaker 1: the children. And we want the focus, of course to

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Speaker 1: be on the ladder. And it should have been in

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Speaker 1: this case. It's basically they were red flags in this

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Speaker 1: case number one thing. And now you know how much

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Speaker 1: I love you, Anne. You and I've shopped for a

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Speaker 1: lipstick together. Okay, that goes a long way with me

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Speaker 1: and I happen to know you'll only wear one type

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Speaker 1: of lipstick, which is now no longer being manufactured. What

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Speaker 1: is It's something like, yeah, it was a Chanel pink

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Speaker 1: number one six nine. You always remember, Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: and I've got that written down by your name in

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Speaker 1: my iPhone. But for those of you listening right now,

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Speaker 1: what did you say? Chanel one six nine something pink?

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Speaker 1: There was the lip claws don't make it any more, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I know, but maybe there's some bootleg out there we

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Speaker 1: could find. I don't know how how could I possibly

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Speaker 1: say red when it's clearly paying Karen Smith friends against

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Speaker 1: first Probably just like just shaking at the thought of

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Speaker 1: such a mistake. But you and I go way back

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Speaker 1: a Bremner. We don't just pass this off. This is

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Speaker 1: a big deal for all the mistakes Social Services has

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Speaker 1: made over all the years, with all the children ending

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Speaker 1: up dead on their watch, including Charlie and Braden. Finally,

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Speaker 1: somebody is taking them on taking listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at TV five, This is Jed Bowl. Cox said that

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Speaker 1: his attorn has suggested that he Suedes State and Child

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Speaker 1: Protective Services, but he says that's as far as it's

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Speaker 1: gone right now. But he does want more answers and

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Speaker 1: safeguards for other children in similar circumstances. Last week, we

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Speaker 1: discovered Josh Powell had hundreds of images of disturbing cartoons, sex,

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Speaker 1: and graphic depictions of incest on his home computer at

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Speaker 1: something Utah authorities investigating the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell

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Speaker 1: kept private for two years. A Washington State psychologist saw

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Speaker 1: those images only six days before Powell killed his boys

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Speaker 1: and blew up his home. Chuck Cox says he always

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Speaker 1: had concerns about supervision during Powell's visits with the boys.

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Speaker 1: We felt there should have been, you know, some armed

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Speaker 1: police officers or at three or four people at least

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Speaker 1: just to make sure nothing went on there. Now, the

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Speaker 1: Coxes and Senate Pam Roach want to find out what

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Speaker 1: evidence that a vision of Child Protective Services had on Powell,

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Speaker 1: evidence that might have blocked him from visiting the boys

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Speaker 1: at all. Reports last week reveal Powell had been diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder. He'd also been ordered to undergo

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Speaker 1: a psychosexual evaluation, yet his visitation rights continued after that

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Speaker 1: courtroom setback, so they knew he had mental issues, problems,

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Speaker 1: and he was under such a great amount of stress.

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Speaker 1: The Senator and the boy's grandparents will hold a meeting

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Speaker 1: Thursday to explore what the Senator calls serious problems with

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Speaker 1: CPS and to offer solutions for situations that may jeopardize

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Speaker 1: a child. And as for suing the state, it has

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Speaker 1: been discussed, it's being considered. Well, it's not just a

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Speaker 1: thought anymore. That lawsuit is on. And when I think

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Speaker 1: about these two little boys, Charlie and Braden, already having

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Speaker 1: lost their mom, actually being in the car when their

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Speaker 1: father disposed of her body, and now they're dead because

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Speaker 1: social services did not bring out the evidence against the

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Speaker 1: father who murdered them to a brand, high profile lawyer

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Speaker 1: out of Seattle, Anne. When the images were found on

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Speaker 1: the dad, Josh Powell's computer, cartoon images about incest. What

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Speaker 1: exactly are we talking about? What were the images? Well,

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Speaker 1: they're images of incest, mom kids, dad kids, very graphic

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Speaker 1: and in some jurisdictions that's criminal, even though it's cartoon.

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Speaker 1: There were four hundred images and they were known to CPS,

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Speaker 1: and yet he still had visitation, and they were considered

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Speaker 1: by doctor Manley who was evaluating him and talked about

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Speaker 1: narcissistic traits, etc. And of course wanted a psychosexual evaluation,

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Speaker 1: which would have meant, as you know, Nancy, polygraph and

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Speaker 1: oh what a graph? Because I saw he had just

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Speaker 1: spin around and she doesn't understand it. I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't explain. It's it's basically a testing

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Speaker 1: for Davian arousalum, which could include incest. Okay, now well

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Speaker 1: well wait, let's just break it down, am Bremmer. When

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Speaker 1: you say deviant arousal and you just glossed over that

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Speaker 1: so quickly, it's a test to do you know what, Bober,

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Speaker 1: you're the forensic shrink, doctor Dingel Bober, explain what she's

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Speaker 1: talking about, and please talk in regular people talk. Basically,

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Speaker 1: Nancy looks at a rectile response to certain images, and

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Speaker 1: they look at baseline images of normal heterosexual behavior, and

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Speaker 1: they compare it, for example, with deviant images of children,

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Speaker 1: and they look at the arousal response to the penis

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Speaker 1: am Bremner. Instead of undergoing the polygraph and the platismograph,

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Speaker 1: he killed his children and then killed himself. And Social

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Speaker 1: Services had those records. They were evaluated just six days

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Speaker 1: before the children were murdered. Look the other night, I

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Speaker 1: woke up in the middle of the night because I

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Speaker 1: was worried, I'm going to take the children camping, and

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Speaker 1: I was worried who's going to stay with my mom?

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Speaker 1: And I was worried about the caretaker to make sure

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Speaker 1: she knew all the details. Three am, I was texting her,

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Speaker 1: you can't tell me that six days pass and they

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Speaker 1: have this knowledge and they do nothing about it. And

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Speaker 1: now the boys were chopped dead with an axe. And

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Speaker 1: not only that, but what people don't realize about this

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Speaker 1: case is that there had been more secured visitation sites.

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Speaker 1: But this was not the case. When the boys were killed.

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Speaker 1: It was in the home that he had staged. It

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Speaker 1: was a rental and there was no quote unquote supervision

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Speaker 1: other than somebody bringing the kids into the house. So

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Speaker 1: there was no security there and no true supervision from

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Speaker 1: our perspective at the time, that the boys were hatcheted

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Speaker 1: to death and then set on fire. Can I just

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Speaker 1: say joining me. A former FBI special agent Jeff Cortes

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Speaker 1: that the apple don't fall far from the tree crime

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Susan was very very sexual with me.

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Speaker 1: She was very flirtatious. I mean, I'm her father in

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Speaker 1: law and she she would do a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that I mean, she was just she did it. I did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we interacted in a lot of sexual ways

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Speaker 1: because Susan enjoys doing that. Do you think a part

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Speaker 1: of you started falling in love with Susan. That's pretty likely. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I wouldn't say so, and and there's

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Speaker 1: no question in my mind that the feelings were mutual.

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Speaker 1: That is total b s. That is Josh Powell's father,

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Speaker 1: who was convicted for all of his eavesdropping and spying

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Speaker 1: and illicit photos of Susan Powell, claiming there was a

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Speaker 1: relationship between them and catch this. Josh Powell went and

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Speaker 1: lived with his dad after Susan was murdered, and he

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Speaker 1: condoned this. His own father would get Susan's clothing, including

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Speaker 1: her underwear, out of the dirty clothes hamper, lay it

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Speaker 1: out on the bed as if in the shape of

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Speaker 1: a person, and then put her a picture on top

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Speaker 1: of it, her photo, her head, and then make out

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Speaker 1: with her clothes. There were and Bremner helped me out

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Speaker 1: how many hundreds of images were there that his Josh

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Speaker 1: Powell's father had illicit images, Oh, too many to count,

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Speaker 1: and there were seven different computers or more. He was

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Speaker 1: filming the little girl's next store naked and so many

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Speaker 1: pictures of Susan that he would more of her, including

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Speaker 1: putting his private part near her mouth in a picture

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Speaker 1: of things like that. And you know, when the child

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Speaker 1: Protective Services took those kids, they were aware of that

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Speaker 1: these images had all been that were there from the

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Speaker 1: father and also aware that that was a house where

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Speaker 1: there's a news hanging from the ceiling and a picture

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Speaker 1: of a woman with a sort of her vagina and

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Speaker 1: then private things belonging to Susan. He was obsessed with Susan,

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Speaker 1: and now Susan is dead. Levi page with me Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. Josh Powell's father went to jail.

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Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that case? Levi? Yes, he went

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Speaker 1: to jail for everything that we're talking about now, and

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Speaker 1: then he died a couple of years later, not that

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Speaker 1: long ago, Nancy, and this guy was really sick. And

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Speaker 1: this entire family, the Powell family apparently was very troubled.

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Speaker 1: Because there's Michael Pale, the father of Josh Pale. He

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Speaker 1: got rid of his vehicle not long after Susan Pale vanished,

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Speaker 1: and police seized that vehicle and they detected human decomposition

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Speaker 1: inside that vehicle. A cadaver dog detected that. And then

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Speaker 1: a year after his brother, Josh Pale committed suicide, Michael

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Speaker 1: Pale committed suicide in twenty thirteen. And police believe that

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Speaker 1: those two brothers, Josh Pale and Michael Pale, along with

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Speaker 1: their father, knew exactly what happened to Susan. And that's

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Speaker 1: very disturbing that the three of them knew and did

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Speaker 1: not tell law enforcement about it too. FBI Special Agent

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Speaker 1: Jeff Cortesi Jeff, I mean, in my mind, this is

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Speaker 1: a treasure trove of evidence, and I don't understand why

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Speaker 1: authorities did not act when they could, and they kept

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Speaker 1: letting these two little boys go for visits with the father. Jeff,

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Speaker 1: this scene was so stage. I mean, Powell blew up

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Speaker 1: the house with the children in it, but only later

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Speaker 1: was it learned that he chopped them with an axe first,

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Speaker 1: and in my mind, Social Services is right there in it. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this is this is one of those cases that is

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Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to consider and think about it. You know,

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Speaker 1: I try to put myself in the position of the

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Speaker 1: other law enforcement officers who are investigating this case, and

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what they felt going through this process.

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Speaker 1: You know, they had a great deal of evidence, says

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Speaker 1: you pointed out it was everywhere, but ultimately law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: if Susan Powell is determined to be dead, then what

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Speaker 1: they really want is to find the body. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if if there was any opportunity missed, potentially it probably

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Speaker 1: is the December eighth to December tenth window. So just

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Speaker 1: the couple days after Susan Powell went missing. Turns out

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Speaker 1: Josh rented a vehicle, disappeared for a couple of days,

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Speaker 1: traveled eight hundred miles at least put eight hundre miles

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Speaker 1: on the vehicle. I think that that was a window

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Speaker 1: of the opportunity that may have been missed. He could

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Speaker 1: have been meeting with co conspirators. Coincidentally, his father was

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Speaker 1: called in sick over the December eighth and December ninth

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Speaker 1: time period. You know, the whole thing is a travesty.

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Speaker 1: The evidence is everywhere. There were opportunities missed, but as

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Speaker 1: far as child services, the writing was more than on

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Speaker 1: the wall. Well here's the way the whole thing shook

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Speaker 1: out to Anne Bremner, high profile lawyer out of Seattle,

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Speaker 1: and the lawyer for the Powell family. What we know

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Speaker 1: is that the grandfather, Susan's father in law, Josh Powell's

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Speaker 1: father was convicted of child porn in voyeurism on little girls.

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Speaker 1: But following Susan's death her disappearance, he Josh Powell was

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Speaker 1: allowed to take the children and move in with his

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Speaker 1: perverted dad in Washington State, taking the little boys with him.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Powell, the grandfather, was arrested her child porn and

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Speaker 1: that is when Susan's family, the Coxes, filed for custody

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Speaker 1: of the boys. They got temporary custody, and long story short,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how Social services went along with the

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Speaker 1: two little boys getting visitation with their dad that murdered

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Speaker 1: their mom. It should just becompencens nancy. That's what we've

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Speaker 1: always said. I if there's probable caused to believe that

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Speaker 1: a parent caused the disappearance of another parent or killed him,

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't have access to the children. We even try

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Speaker 1: to get a lot passed to that effect in Washington State,

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Speaker 1: a state with Senator Roach. It didn't pass one like

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Speaker 1: it did pass in Utah. You know where Susan had

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Speaker 1: lived previously. But that's a very basic concept. On that

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Speaker 1: faithful day, and listen to this, social services allowed this dad,

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Speaker 1: this murderous father, with child porn cartoons on his laptop,

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Speaker 1: have visitation three days a week with the little boys.

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Speaker 1: On that day, he had a scheduled visitation day with

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Speaker 1: Charlie and Braden. As they come to the door, he

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Speaker 1: quickly grabs the boys, pulls them in and shuts and

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Speaker 1: locks it. He axes them dead and blows up the home. Listen, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm on a tip of visitation for a cord or

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Speaker 1: to get it, and I'm something really weird had happened

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Speaker 1: to kipping into the house and the parents, the biological

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Speaker 1: parent and saying that stock Powe will not let me

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Speaker 1: in the door. What should I do? What? It's eight

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Speaker 1: one one and I think it's eighty nine. Um, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the idents pretty important for me to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let me get in my carent find it.

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Speaker 1: I'm nothing like this has ever happened before. Um indications,

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Speaker 1: So I'm moving UM shocked and I could care really shocked.

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Speaker 1: Then why did you let the children go in the

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Speaker 1: house without you? Now listen to the rest of this

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Speaker 1: call the house in the house, Yes, there was a

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Speaker 1: man and the children. I just dropped off the children

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Speaker 1: and he wouldn't let me in the door. And the

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Speaker 1: people are saying, there's not somebody care. But I get there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if somebody get the little boy from the house.

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Speaker 1: You saw him go back into the house from the

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00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: plane right before the plane. He can ever leave the

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00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: house because they open the door. They kids work, kids

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00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: were one step. They had to meet at five and seven.

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00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: They were one step. They had a me and the

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Speaker 1: flammed the door. In my faith, and you think he

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Speaker 1: might have done it intentionally? Yeah, I don't understand why

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Speaker 1: they were having visitation helped me out, Am Bremner. And

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Speaker 1: what is the purpose of the lawsuit. This is a

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Speaker 1: major development social services for the State of Washington finally

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Speaker 1: being sued. Well, the purpose is to ship that focus,

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Speaker 1: Like I talked about to the best interests of the children.

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Speaker 1: This is the worst case I think that any of

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Speaker 1: us have ever seen in terms of a child custody

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Speaker 1: matter or visitation involving a state. And my clients don't

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Speaker 1: want the deaths of these children to be in vain.

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Speaker 1: They want their children's lives to mean something. To the

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Speaker 1: safety of all your kids, you know in the state

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Speaker 1: of Washington that may be subjected to confines by the

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Speaker 1: state or dictates by the state, visitation, foster care, etc.

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Speaker 1: Or custody. We really want people to see the kind

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00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: of red flags that should be looked at, Like in

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00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: this case, there was a search warrant issued by judge.

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Speaker 1: A judge found probable cause that Josh had killed his wife.

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Speaker 1: They knew that the state of the home, the porn

427
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: in the home, the fact that Josh had taken out

428
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: three point five million dollars in insurance on his wife

429
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: and kids, the fact that he was despondent about the

430
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: psycho sexual evaluation, the fact that he was controlling the kids,

431
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: the fact that the kids were now speaking more and

432
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: more about what they saw that night when there were

433
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: two and four. They're getting older and they're articulating what

434
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: they saw. They were witnesses to their mom's demise. All

435
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: of those things were of great concern, but yet they

436
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: were they were ignored, those signs, those red flags, didn't

437
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: we believe, Anne Bremner, do you believe that in Social

438
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: services files there was amming evidence against Josh Powell, but

439
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: he was allowed to have visitation with the boys even

440
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: though Social Services knew all of this information. It's our contention, Nancy,

441
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: in this case that they knew all of this information.

442
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever been able to look in those files?

443
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen what's in them? And Bremner, I have,

444
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: and we've conducted discovery in this case for quite some time,

445
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: and we've been up to the Ninth circuiting back in

446
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: this case, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and the

447
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: files have a lot of information about the visitations, but

448
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: they also have information about Josh Powell. They never even

449
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: determined whether or not he was complicit in the pornography

450
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: that was in that house where the boys were residing.

451
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: They'd never figured out whether or not there should be

452
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: a domestic violence assessment of him. There never was one,

453
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: even though there was problem causibly he killed his wife.

454
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: All of these kinds of things are in the files.

455
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: Everything's written down. But actions speak louder than words, or

456
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: in action speaks louder, frankly in this case, and that

457
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: was not acting quickly enough to save them. Not acting

458
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: quickly enough. Years go by, and then six days before

459
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: the boys are murdered. You have a shrink looking at

460
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: all of this, insist porn child porn cartoons, but they

461
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: did nothing. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. In a court

462
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: filing this past Wednesday, he made a strong appeal, I've

463
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: proven myself as a fit and loving father who provides

464
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: a stable home even in the face of great adversity.

465
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: A lesser person would fall under the intense scrutiny I

466
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: am facing. But the judge requested a lie detector test

467
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: and further evaluation. I don't think the order of the

468
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: evaluation caused this. I think that this has been coming.

469
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: It's been brewing for a long long time. And even

470
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: though the family begged the court for help, those visitations

471
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: were in place and they were allowed. The boy's grandparents

472
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: say they are convinced that Josh Powell saw the kids

473
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: as his own like possessions, and he didn't want anyone

474
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: else to have them. Her blood sister told me the

475
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: parents begged for him not to have visitation at all.

476
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, what mortia want? The mom has

477
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: been murdered. She was taken out of Josh Powell's home

478
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: and murdered with the boys in the car. He also

479
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: had them in a scenario with his father, who was

480
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: now behind bars for child pornography. Under these circumstances, the

481
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: judge should not have ordered visitation at Josh Powell's home

482
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: and who could have stopped that? Social Services now being sued.

483
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: That was me speaking with ABC's Neil Karlinski and Bremner.

484
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: This lawsuit that the Powells, who you represent are filing

485
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: against Social Services could be a landmark case across our country.

486
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: What do you think? I hope so, I really hope so.

487
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: I mean I've practiced lawn nancy now for thirty six

488
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: years and it would be my greatest honor an achievement

489
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: to see that happen in this most tragic case. Karen

490
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: Smith with me, a forensic expert, founder of Bare Bones

491
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: Consulting to you, Karen Smith, what do you expect will

492
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: be in those child services files? Listen, You've got photographs

493
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: of the crime scene. This is all discovery, Nancy. Everybody

494
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: pretty much should have everything at this point. The police

495
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: reports all of the information that thought the homicide detectives,

496
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: the patrol officers who first responded to the house and

497
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: saw floor fans in the house pointing at a sofa

498
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: that had freshly been cleaned along with the carpeting. Clue

499
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: phone for you. They did testing on that sofa. They

500
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: sprayed luminol on it and the carpet. There are impacts

501
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: spatters all over the place, which is indicative of some

502
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: kind of blunt force trauma. The blood came back to

503
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: Susan Powell. I don't understand, first of all, how charges

504
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: weren't brought right then, and let alone Department of Children

505
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: and Family Services ignoring all of that in the face

506
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: of her disappearance and these two little boys in their safety.

507
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: I am dumbfounded right now, Nancy, Well listen to this.

508
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: And Child's Services knew this. The day after Susan goes missing,

509
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: four year old Charlie tells the cops he knew exactly

510
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: where his mom was, that they had all gone on

511
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: a quote midnight drive and she stayed at a place

512
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: A boy called the quote Dinosaur National Park, that quote,

513
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: my mom stayed where the crystals are because it has

514
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: so much pretty where the crystals grow. That's what he

515
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: told police. But knowing that Child Services still did not

516
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: open up their files and allow a judge to make

517
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: an informed decision. Let me understand something to Anne Bremner,

518
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: is it true that two of the social service workers

519
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: have gotten immunity. There was a court finding of immunity

520
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: in this case qualified an absolute immunity. And also Nancy,

521
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: with respect to those Utah files, a court there had

522
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: a gag order on a ceiling of those files. One

523
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: final thing on that issue. Nancy, one of the case

524
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 1: workers in our case, said the people in Washington State

525
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: at CPS couldn't look at other states evidence. That is

526
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 1: a lie. That is an outright lie. I don't believe

527
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: that for one minute. And Bremner, when it comes to

528
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: the safety of children, absolutely, That's why that's where we

529
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: have We've had so many changes. Aolunteers a cooperation between

530
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: states and other in different agencies. It's to make sure

531
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: that we don't have problems like this where there's information

532
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: that's not fully known, but it was very public about

533
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: the camping trip about what the kids had said. And

534
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: of course, like I said before, there was that search

535
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: warrant affidavit and a finding a problem caused by the

536
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: judge in the warrant included all the things we just

537
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: talked about in terms of probable cause for belief that

538
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: Josh Powell, for the belief that Josh Powell killed his wife.

539
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: You know, the signals are so alarming. One day Charlie

540
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: comes into kindergarten says his brother was dead, and more

541
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: and more we're starting to say odd things about death.

542
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: Clearly the murder of his mother was gnawing on this

543
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: child's mind. To Karen Smith at Bare Bones Consulting, there

544
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: was a treasure trove of evidence, but it was ignored

545
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: and now the boys are dad. Karen understatement, I can't

546
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: believe the amount of evidence that police found in this

547
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: house blood evidence alone, Nancy, not including the cars, not

548
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: including the human decom not including what they found at

549
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: the abandoned car at the airport. I'm talking about the

550
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: initial search warrant served at this house with the carpeting

551
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: and the couch that were being dried by floor fans. Listen,

552
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: they did their job. They sprayed luminal, they had the

553
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: blood stained patterns, they had everything, they did, the DNA testing,

554
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: they did, the swabs. It all came back to Susan Powell.

555
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: I cannot understand. I understand they want the body. You

556
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: don't have to have one to bring charges against someone.

557
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: And I have had cases with a lot less evidence

558
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: and a lot less informations. In this case brought charges

559
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: and a conviction in a court of law. So I'm

560
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: really struggling with understanding why Josh Powell was not arrested

561
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: and grilled in the box to find out what the

562
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: heck happened Jeff courtesy for we're FBI special agent, what

563
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: should have happened? I think ultimately what should have happened

564
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: is charges should have been brought. Um. I think certainly

565
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: the evidence was there with the blood splatter with I mean,

566
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: the cases riddled with evidence. Everywhere you look, were signs

567
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: of foul play everywhere you look. We're over actions by

568
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: Josh to to avoid implicating himself, you know, handing over

569
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: cell phones without SIM cards, the disappearing for a couple

570
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: of days, you know, the brothers car. The investigation from

571
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: top to bottom is sufficiently filled with with with evidence, um,

572
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: I like you and your other guests are a little dumbfounded,

573
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: to say the least that the charges weren't brought. I

574
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: understand the overall idea of trying to find the body,

575
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: but at the sense of dragging this out and exposing

576
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: others too harm, especially those boys, was just unconscionable. Well,

577
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: Social Services sitting on this information and going along with

578
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 1: these visits unforgivable. And Bremner, the civil trial against the

579
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Social and Health Services in connection

580
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: with the death of the two little boys has been set.

581
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: It will go down at the Pierce County Court in Washington.

582
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: What do you want the outcome to be? And Bremner,

583
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: I would like to see a jury, and it will

584
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: be a jury make findings that red flags were ignored

585
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: in this case. I'd like to see a jury acknowledge

586
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: that there should be certain protocols in place in this

587
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: state to make sure that kids like Charlie and Braden

588
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: aren't horrifically murdered. And I'd like to see a public

589
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: airing of this case so that everybody, all the citizens

590
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: of the state of Washington, can see what went right,

591
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: if anything, and what went wrong to make sure this

592
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: never never happens again. And I'd like to see a

593
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: focus on the kids, just the best interest of the child.

594
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: It's so simple. We don't want to reunify families when

595
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: this is going to happen. This kind of strategy is

596
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: going to happen, and we see it over and over

597
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: and over again. We have to look at what's best

598
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: for the children and follow that every single time. Well,

599
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: apparently I'm not going to get my wish, and that

600
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: is for Social Services to do hard jail time because

601
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: I believe they were aiding and embedding a situation that

602
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: ended in the murders of little Charlie and Braden. We

603
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story, signing off

604
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,