1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Christmas Morning in Jacksonville, Florida, 2 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: a young wife and mother, Bonnie Hame opens presents with 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: her son. Bonnie's husband, Michael, captures the moment forever on video. 4 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: Less than two weeks later, Bonnie disappears. What happened to 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame? A gorgeous young mom who disappears from her 6 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: Florida home one January day at the age of twenty three. 7 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: She has never been seen now interesting Her son was 8 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: always plagued with nightmares that Mommy was murdered, but after 9 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: an investigation that turned out not to be true. I'm 10 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: with us. Bonnie Hame seemingly disappears into thin air. Where 12 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: is she? I've got an all star panel with me today. 13 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: First of all, newcomer to Crime Stories, Doctor Chris Sperry, 14 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: former chief medical Examiner for the entire state of Georgia. 15 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: He explained a lot to me when I was a 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: prosecutor and also led me through many many homicide trials. 17 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: Frank Powers, Assignment manager News for Jacksonville. Doctor Jolly Silva, 18 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 1: New York clinical forensics psychologists worked for New York Family Court. 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: That's a toughie. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. 20 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: You can find it on Amazon. And Joseph Scott Morgan, 21 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University and author of 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon to Frank Powers joining 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: us from news for Jacksonville. You know when you drive 24 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: through Jacksonville, Frank Powers, it's beautiful. It's there on the water. 25 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: It's turning into a real tourist makeup because the perfect weather. 26 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: Tell me about when she went missing, first of all, 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: setting the scene for me. Tell me about their neighborhood. 28 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: It's a fairly typical middle class neighborhood on the north 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: side of the river, about maybe fifteen minutes from the airport. 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: And you see a lot of neat houses along the neighborhood. 31 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: People take care of their lines, They go to church 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: and celebrate birthdays. You know, I grew up in a 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: very rural area, and when you say middle class, that 34 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: spans well over half of our country. And I'm just 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: thinking about that. To doctor Chris Sperry joining me today. 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Very often people are fooled into thinking that people don't 37 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: disappear from their neighborhood. That's just not true. Because you 38 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: and I've been through so many many homicides, I can't 39 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: even count them. Chris. You can be rich, you can 40 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: be poor, you can have your PhD, you can drop 41 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: out at sixth grade. It doesn't matter. People go missing 42 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: from every walk of life. Sometimes they're found and sometimes 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: they're not. Chris, that's right. People go missing all the time, 44 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: and you never really think about it until someone is missing, 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: and then suddenly it's right at the forefront of your thought. 46 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: You know how many times, doctor Sperry have you and 47 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: I been in court together and you look out and 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: you see this seemingly perfect family. You know, you got 49 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: the whole clan there, and they're all well dressed, they articulate, 50 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: they've all got degrees or from a fancy area of town. 51 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: Doesn't matter, does not matter, doesn't matter a bit. I 52 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: mean dozens over and over and over again. You know, 53 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: the family that you least think is going to be 54 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: responsible for someone's disappearance or have a family member disappear, 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: they're the ones that are sitting there to Wendy Patrick 56 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: joining me California prosecutor, author of Red Flags you know, 57 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking at her picture and I'm looking at family photos, 58 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: and it's hard for me to believe that this mom 59 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: of this beautiful little boy just goes missing without the boy. 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: That's the problem for me. Yeah, Nancy, it's you know, 61 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head when you talked 62 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: about it's hard for most people, i e. Most jurors 63 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: to believe that somebody that looks like they come from 64 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: a picture perfect life could just go missing, especially when 65 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: you talk about splitting up a family. But I gotta 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: tell you, and we know this firsthand nowadays, with the 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: advent of social media and Facebook, that you only see 68 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: the image that somebody wants you to see, and behind 69 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: every white picket fence looking yard, perfect family, you just 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: never know what secrets lie beneath that appears to be 71 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: what at least was going through some people's heads when 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: it happened in this game to doctor Jolie Silva joining me, 73 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: Clinical forensic psychologist, Doctor Silva, I was just thinking about 74 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: this past Sunday, dragging everybody, getting everybody up, getting everybody dressed, 75 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: getting me there early this past Sunday, and I had 76 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: them all dressed up beautifully, but me you know, I 77 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: just had on my same T shirt and army jacket 78 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: and cowboy boots, and I've got everybody stepped into a 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: seat and settled, and I looked around and it fell 80 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: that we had just poured ourselves in And I wonder, 81 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, I guess a lot of families do try 82 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: to give a certain image. Oh yes, I mean, you know, 83 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: any one who even has children knows that getting out 84 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: the door is a completely different situation than when you're 85 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: actually out the door, you know. And I completely agree 86 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: with the advent of social media, we are even more 87 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: inclined and more motivated to have this picture perfect family 88 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: life which goes on inside the house is a completely 89 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: different story. I mean, the level of dysfunction that can 90 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: occur across socioeconomic classes, I mean is enormous, you know, 91 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: domestic violence. You know, you don't have to be in 92 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: a low SCS to have these kinds of violent acts 93 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: going on in a home, you know. And it strikes 94 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: me very very odd to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 95 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, that she just vanishes without a trace, 96 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: especially the little boy Aaron was just three years oh 97 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: when mommy goes missing. How could she get missing without 98 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: a trace? Joe Scott. Yeah, I don't bother these cases 99 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: where people just suddenly vanish into thin air. There's always 100 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: a rational al for this happening, particularly if you're talking 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: about a young mother who has a child that's, you know, 102 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: let's face it, totally and completely depended upon her. And 103 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: so that would leave me as an investigator to think 104 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: that there's something more to this than what people are saying. Well, 105 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: we know that she goes missing. I wish you could 106 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: see her like I'm seeing her right now. Beautiful. This 107 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: woman has the really dark hair, kind of over on 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: the side, big smile, and it looks like they're in 109 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: some kind of an organized family photo. She's holding the 110 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: baby too. Frank Powers from News for Jackson. Did they 111 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: only have the one child? Yes, just Aaron, and am 112 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: I correct that he was three at the time she 113 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: goes missing. He was three years old, and she was 114 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: the one that made all the arrangements for daycare, which 115 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: is another thing that was curious. When a mother is 116 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: going to disappear, whether her she's going to go out 117 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: by herself, you'd thinks she would be making considerations to 118 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: have her child taken care of. She was the one 119 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: that made all the plans for daycare. Okay, just out 120 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: of curiosity, Frank, do you have children, I have two 121 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: grown children, two grandchildren. Okay, then you know what I'm 122 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: talking about. Did you make all the plans for their 123 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: preschool and school and babysitters? No, you specifically okay care 124 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: most of that. Yeah, because I can tell you. I 125 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: have to sometimes tell David how he's supposed to pick 126 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: the children up for pick up in the afternoon. You 127 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: go in this way, then you wait right here, and 128 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: then don't move and make sure you have the sticker 129 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: of the front or something's gonna go wrong. Blah blah. 130 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: And when you say, I mean really, doctor Jolie Silva, 131 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: of course the mob did it. No offense, gentlemen. Of 132 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: course the mob did all the daycare planning, please a 133 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: hundred percent. That is like winderful opinion. The mother did 134 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: all of it. But you know, back to what Frank 135 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: is saying, she's the one. I guess you're saying. Also, 136 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: she's the one that would pick the baby up and 137 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: drop him off and all that, and then she just 138 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: disappears with no plans. Is that what you're saying, that's 139 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: what the situation that the police department we're looking into. 140 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: Why did she take off and leaving her son with 141 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: an on certain future. That was a big red flag. 142 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: So Frank Powers, are you telling me she left during 143 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: the day one day and the baby, Aaron was at 144 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: daycare or preschool, and then nobody was there to say 145 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: how she went missing. It happened at night, Okay, tell 146 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: me about that. According to the husband she left after 147 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: the fight, she said she was leaving him and he 148 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: never called police. The police called him only after her 149 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: purse was found in a dumpster near the airport. They 150 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: thought that was a bad signing crime stories with Nancy Grace, 151 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: There's no doubt in my mind if she was able 152 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: to pick up a phone, she would have contacted someone. 153 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: Bonnie Haymes family just can't put the pieces together. They 154 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: don't know why she's not here at home with them. 155 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: Annie's husband, Michael Haims, says they had an argument before 156 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: she left the house Wednesday night. He says he thought 157 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: Bonnie went to blow off some steam, but something happened. 158 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: A maintenance man at this red roof in near the 159 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: Jacksonville Airport found a purse inside one of these dumpsters. 160 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: Here inside the purse Bonnie Hames wallet with her credit 161 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: cards and her cash still intact. That's when police got suspicious. 162 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Nothing else in the case why she should be missing 163 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: other than this circumstances surrounding, maybe some type of domestic 164 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: problem with the husband and she'd leaves. Investigators talked to 165 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: guests at the motel looking for any clues, and they 166 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: did question Bonnie hames husband, but they are not calling 167 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: him a suspect. Aankually, she just wasn't happy, she wanted 168 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: to leave, and I couldn't always stop her from leaving. 169 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: But what happened after she did leave the house. The 170 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: Haimes say Bonnie knew about a pressing business appointment the 171 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: next morning. That's just one of the reasons they say 172 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: she couldn't have just left town. And there's her little boy. 173 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: She wouldn't leave him, three year old Aaron him doesn't 174 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: know where his mommy is. Bonnie Heim's family is just 175 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: hoping that word will come before they have to explain 176 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: any bad news to the toddler. Aaron Laji. He's asking 177 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: for you and if anyone has seen her or has 178 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, can shed any light on the story. Just 179 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: please please let us know something you're hearing from our 180 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: friends at Channel four Eye Witness News. That was Mary 181 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: Bear reporting on Bonnie Hame going missing. I know that 182 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people go just blow off steam and 183 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: they leave the house, but it's always difficult for me 184 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: to imagine. To you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author 185 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: of Red Flags, It's always hard for me to imagine 186 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: just leaving the house with the children here. It would 187 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: be hard for me to just co quote blow off 188 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: steam while they're here. No, that's absolutely correct, and it 189 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to most mothers. And you bring 190 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: up a great example. Parents cannot relate to this. If 191 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: you need to blow off steam, you don't do it 192 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: in a circumstance that would leave your children home alone 193 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, regardless of the differences 194 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: or the arguments you're having with your spouse. So here 195 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: we have her having both personally and professionally, no reason 196 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: to do what allegedly she do and every member, she 197 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: had a business meeting the next morning, she had the 198 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: three year old at home. It just doesn't make sense 199 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: and common sense, Dancy, as you know, during your years 200 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: as a prosecutor. Is something that jurors don't leave at 201 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: the door. It's highly suspicious. We're trying to make sense 202 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: of the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom, Bonnie Hayne. 203 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: But then everything changes to me, doctor Chris Sperry, when 204 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: her pocketbook is found in a dumpster. It's one thing, 205 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: and I know people do it every day to just leave. 206 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: You just get fed up. Maybe it's an abusive relationship, 207 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: maybe you're just worn out with the whole thing. It's 208 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: not what you signed up for, and you just leave, 209 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: got it. But the pocketbook in the dumpster, Chris, that's 210 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,599 Speaker 1: a problem. Oh Suddenly, it's immediately suspicious. You know that 211 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: it may not know at that point what the degree 212 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: of suspicion is or what the focus is, but finding 213 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: a pocketbook inside a dumpster is immediate cause for concern, period, 214 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry. In cases that you and I have tried together, 215 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: and the many, many of the thousands you handled, there's 216 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: that one tipping point. There's that one fact that changes everything, 217 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: and for me, it was finding her pocketbook, her pocketbook 218 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: thrown in a dumpster. Is it always like that in 219 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: a case where there's that one fact that changes everything. 220 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: It can be. It's not always, and it would be 221 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: nice if that were the case. But those instances where 222 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: there is something, as you said, a tipping point, those 223 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: completely change the complexion of the case and usually is 224 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: the focus that starts an actual real investigation. Unfortunately, many 225 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: cases are not like that, though they can go on 226 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: for days or even weeks just with nothing. You're looking 227 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: for the one thing that may open the door or 228 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: at least show that something serious has happened, something of 229 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: great concern has happened. And if you find that, then 230 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: it's very fortunate. But if you don't find that, cases 231 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: can just drag on and on and on. As you 232 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: well know, yeah, they can drag on forever. To Frank 233 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: Power's assignment manager News for Jackson, Well, Frank tell me 234 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: about where her purse was found. It was in a 235 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: dumpster behind the motel near the airport. And also probabling 236 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: to the police when they found that purse in it, 237 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: so they knew right off the bat whatever happened to 238 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame, it wasn't a robbery. Wow, okay. Joseph Scott 239 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: Morgan Way in what does this tell you? Well, you know, 240 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: the pocketbook in and of itself with a lady that 241 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: is managing her life, the life of her children, the 242 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: life of her family, and it's just kind of tossed 243 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: aside and she's attempting to disappear or fade away, if 244 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: that's the impression that's being given this. This is not 245 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: something that that would fall in line with with a 246 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: logical progression here. Uh, it's it's an odd bit of 247 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: information coming in. There's been a number of cases over 248 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: the years where you'll have folks that will be involved 249 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: in an afarious event and their car will wind up 250 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: part at a at an airport in order to give 251 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: the appearance that they're just blasting off. But why would 252 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: you Why would you leave your car at the airport 253 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: and then not taking anything with you to subsist off 254 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: of it. It's it's very strange. Now we know though 255 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: Bonnie was leaving her husband, and that she had prepared 256 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: to leave her husband. She had even opened a bank 257 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: account in her own name. She had kept her plan secret, 258 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: She had the bank statement mailed to her at work. 259 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: We also know that she had planned to put the 260 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: baby in a different preschool. She was making all these 261 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: plans to leave her husband and then she disappears, so 262 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: seemingly that's part of her plan that was uncovered after 263 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: her disappearance, except the pocketbook with the money and it 264 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: listen to this. On the evening she disappeared, Bonnie came 265 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: home from work at about seven thirty pm. She intended 266 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: to drop by Evans later to finalize plans for her 267 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: friend's baby shower. About eight thirty that evening, she called 268 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: me on the phone. Hey, listen about tonight. I'm not 269 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: going to be able to make it. She was crying 270 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: and she was upset. Bunny, is something the matter? And 271 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: I asked her Schwarman to call her back later and 272 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: she said no, that she would just talk to me 273 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: in the morning. Oh, actually not too good. I think 274 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm coming down with something. But the next morning, either 275 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: Bonnie nor Michael showed up at work. Why she got 276 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: mad at me last night and took off. I don't 277 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: know where she's at. Hopes for Bonnie's safe return began 278 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: to fade. That same morning, her purse turned up only 279 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: five miles from home, buried in a motel dumpster near 280 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: the Jacksonville Airport. Robbery apparently was not a motive due 281 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: to the amount of money and the credit cards being there. 282 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: The purse was secured by the maintenance worker and a 283 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: police officer was called to the scene along with family members. 284 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: You were hearing our friends at Unsolved Mysteries. You know 285 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: how many cases have been cracked, Wendy Patrick, by a 286 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: maintenance worker. A maintenance worker finds a pocketbook, finds a 287 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: driver's license, finds a body. I mean, they are a 288 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: source of a lot of information when cases are cracked. 289 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed that, Wendy. I've actually never considered 290 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: it until right now, you know I have. They're often 291 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: our best witnesses, and they're often viewed as very credible 292 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: because they don't have the kind of motive to lie 293 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: or to make anything up. They're often just good samaritans 294 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: who are horrified in some of these discoveries they've made, 295 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: like in this case, and just want to do the 296 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: right thing as quickly as possible by alerting the authorities. 297 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: So yes, thank god they're employed in the ways that 298 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: they are, so they can give us the kind of 299 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence we need. Tell me to Frank Powers from 300 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: News for Jacksonville about the search for Bonnie Hame. What 301 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: was done to find her well. Police searched all over 302 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: the area, even brought in psychics. They searched the neighborhood, 303 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: they asked for tips crime stoppers, didn't get a whole 304 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: lot of tips. And then they found her car, and 305 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: that was at the airport, and that was the way 306 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: they found the car. That again pointed the foul play. 307 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: Speaking of psychics, take listen to our friend Scott Johnson 308 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: w j XT News for Jacksonville. The woman who rented 309 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: the house claims that there were ghosts in the house, 310 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: things like candles that would like themselves, mattresses that would 311 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: all of a sudden turn bloody, then all of a 312 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: sudden not be bloody. That investigators with police at the 313 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: time brought in psychics to try and help crack this case. 314 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Bunny Hayne was born May twentieth, 315 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: nineteen s and eighteen years old. She married her high school. 316 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Her fairy tale would continue two years later with the 317 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: birth of young Aaron Hayne, the apple of her aunt, 318 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: the love of her life. And even though he was 319 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: a young woman, Aaron was everything and she was a 320 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: great love. But as things happen, BONDI and this began 321 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: to drift apart. And it wasn't much longer. About three 322 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: years later and nision, I want to go first to 323 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: doctor Joey Silva, New York clinical forensic psychologist. What is 324 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: that you drift apart? Why do couples always say that's 325 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: the reason for their divorce they drifted apart. Yeah, when 326 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: you're working and you're raising children and you're trying to 327 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: cook dinner. I mean, I hardly notice when David walks by. 328 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure he doesn't want to hear that, but that's 329 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: the reality, because you know, you're you're trying to get 330 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: through the day. You're trying to get everything done for 331 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 1: the children and for work. Of course you drift apart, 332 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: but it's your duty to try to make it work, 333 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, the human brain is only capable 334 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: of doing so much in a given day. And when 335 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: you have to worry about things like what are the 336 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: kids going to worry in to school? I have to 337 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: sign this note, I have to pick up this, I 338 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: have to do that. Dude. Your brain only has so 339 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: much capacity to focus on romance and love and let's connect. 340 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry man to hear for you 341 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: to actually hear this me laughing when you said romance 342 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: and I really hope that my husband a reliant of 343 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: his family. It's not listening right now, Romance. Are you 344 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: kidding me? I mean, I think last night I slept 345 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: four hours and I count on myself very lucky. Okay, 346 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: now hold on, I've got I've got another fact. I've 347 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: got another clue here that probably Frank Powers already knows. 348 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about her vehicle? Her car? Well, 349 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: the car was found up at the Jacksonville International Airport, 350 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: and she's a tiny woman. But the position they found 351 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: the driver's seat in who was pushed back not a 352 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: position you find some like I'm six foot three, I 353 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: have a pushback all the way a gal who's like 354 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: barely over five feet tall, she's going to have that 355 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: very close to the steering wheel. And that's not the 356 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: way they found front driver's seat. You know, you're making 357 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: things flashed through my mind, Frank Powers. Every time David 358 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: tries to get into my beat up minivan, he's six four, 359 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: I'm five to one. He looks at me like I've 360 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: done something wrong because he has to put the seat back. 361 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, go drive your own car 362 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: if you don't like it. So what I don't get 363 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: is even now I mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, that was 364 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: a big clue for me, as as Chris Berry and 365 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: I were talking about a tipping point in a case 366 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: when Tara Grinstead's car seat was pushed back and she 367 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: was one of those neat freaks Joe Scott Morgan. Tara 368 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: Grinstead's car would still smell new, it had that new smell. 369 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: Everything was pristine. But when they found her car part 370 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: back in her garage the night of her disappearance, it 371 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: was covered in mud and the seat was pushed back, 372 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: just like Frank Powers is describing. That's a big clue, Yeah, 373 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: it is. It goes to the specific nature of the 374 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: way the individual that's connected to that vehicle lives their life. 375 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: And that's part of the bigger narrative when you're when 376 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: you're investigating a case like this, and that's a huge question. Now, 377 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: if you're talking about a seat that's pushed all the 378 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: way back, the presumption here is that the individual it 379 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: was in it was probably a male that was driving 380 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: the vehicle because the seat is so far back in 381 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: its position compared to her who would have been in 382 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: this car other than her who would have access to it. 383 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things as investigators that we're 384 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: going to want to look at. You know, the reality 385 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: is that that tells me she was not the last 386 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: person to drive her car. Now, it could be argued 387 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: she had a boyfriend and they flew off together. The 388 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: car was at the airport, didn't we see that? And 389 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: one of Drew Peterson's wives the car something was at 390 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: the airport. I mean, that's an old straight out of 391 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: the Criminal how To book. But her car's at the airport, 392 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: the seats pushed back. Her pocketbook with twelve hundred dollars 393 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: cash in it has found in a dumpster. I can 394 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: pretty well say she didn't just leave with another guy. 395 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: Then the nightmares start with baby Aaron. Baby Aaron's mommy 396 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: is gone at age three. And what really concerns me 397 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: is the nature of these nightmares. He tries to explain 398 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: them to people, Doctor Silva. He dreams that mommy was 399 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: in time out. He dreames, mommy is asleep and can't 400 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: be woken up. He says Daddy put her in time out. 401 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: He says all sorts of things like mommy's underwater, all 402 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: sorts of scary things. And I know I keep diverting us. 403 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: But we all know the case of Susan Powell. She 404 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: disappeared in the middle of the night and her husband, 405 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: Josh Powell, says he took the family camping. It was 406 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: zero degrees that night at midnight when he went camping 407 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: with his two little boys. She's never seen again. One 408 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: of them draws a picture and it's Mommy in a 409 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: car trunk. Now does that prove a case? No, it doesn't, 410 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: Doctor Jolly Silva. The problem with Aaron's dreams and his 411 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: stories is they're all over the place. Mommy's underwater, mommy's 412 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: in time out, mommy's asleep in the bed, won't wake up. 413 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: I mean, his stories vary too much for authorities to 414 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: really take any one of them seriously, Doctor Silva. You know, 415 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: the fact that he that he had repeated nightmares like 416 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: that is a clear indicator that there was violent domestic violence, 417 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: that he witnessed some pretty bad things happening in the home. 418 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: You know, there were reports that he also said, mom 419 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: daddy hurt, mommy daddy shop, mommy, daddy put mommy in 420 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: time out. All of these things, But to pinpoint out 421 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: to a specific memory of daddy killing mommy would be 422 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: very hard, a very hard thing to prove. But he 423 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: clearly had, you know, a traumatic experience in a traumatic 424 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: history at age three. Those things are real. A three 425 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: year old has real experiences, and clearly there was violence 426 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: going on in the home. Well, this is how I 427 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: had to do it. Wendy Patrick, fellow prosecutor. When you 428 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: have a child witness and everyone looks at you as 429 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: if you had the play when you put a child 430 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: on the stand, But there's one for the prosecution to 431 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: win a case, one shot to put the bad GUYE 432 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: behind bars. And if you have to put a child 433 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: up to do it, then you hold your nose and 434 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: you put the child up there, and you're the strong one. 435 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: You have to do it, and there's just really no choice. 436 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: But they don't talk like we talk. For instance, I 437 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: would say in felony indictments, you have to show the jurisdiction, 438 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: of course, what happened as best as you can name 439 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: the crime, like murder, you may not know how the 440 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: crime was committed. You may not know exactly when it 441 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: was committed, which is a requirement for an indictment that 442 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: gives the defendant notice of when they had to defend 443 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: themselves on that particular date, so they can work up 444 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: an alibi, for instance. But children don't always no dates. 445 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: So I would say things like, was the Christmas tree up, 446 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: they had the Easter bunny come? Were you wearing short 447 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: pants or in a tank top? Or were you wearing 448 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: a sweater and long pants to try to get some idea, 449 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: some framework to make out the indictment. They don't talk 450 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: like we do. You have to unlock what they're saying 451 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: it sometimes it takes a really long time, Wendy. Yeah, 452 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, Nancy. And that's also one of the 453 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: reasons sometimes when I've why dear jury, I'd like to 454 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: know whether there's anyone there that has no experience with children, 455 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: because you have to have that experience to understand the 456 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: way they communicate. And as you mentioned, there are ways 457 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: in which you can circumstantially prove when an event occurred. Birthdays, 458 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: it's gosh, especially if it's theirs, they usually remember what 459 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: kind of a cake they had, so too, that establishes 460 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: the kind of credibility you need to lend some credence 461 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: to some of these other things that children remember, very 462 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: important points, you know. Back to Frank Power's assignment manager 463 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: and use for Jacksonville. Frank, So we've got air in 464 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: love without a mommy. What becomes of him and dad? Michael? Well, 465 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: Michael goes on with his life, and some thought that 466 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: that was a little too quick when he met another 467 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: woman and married her. White man, white white, white, white white. 468 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: When did he meet another woman? How soon after Monny 469 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: going missing? It was about a year m found another woman. 470 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: And they start, is that I need a shrink on 471 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: this one, doctor Silva. Why is it that women grave 472 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: and grave and grave and vow they'll never love again? 473 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: And then the man runs off with another woman, like 474 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: in within twelve months, he's happily resettled somewhere. How does 475 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: that work? Um? You know, I don't know if that 476 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: would necessarily be the case for all, you know, people 477 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: who split up, But in this case, there was there 478 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: was clearly a lot of dysfunction going on with this man. 479 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if if there if he 480 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: had some kind of anti social personality where he didn't 481 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: really care very much about his wife, one didn't really 482 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: care very much about other women in general. So he probably, 483 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, had no remorse and just had no feelings 484 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: for the fact that his wife was gone. Long story short, Frank, 485 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: isn't it true he leaves? He just told me a 486 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: new fact about remarrying and relocating to North Carolina. But 487 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: what about Aaron? The baby? Aaron was eventually adopted by 488 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: the Frasier family. Okay, hold on, what the mom goes 489 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: missing and he adopts the baby out You allowed the 490 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: baby to be adopted out right, And it wasn't the 491 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame side of the family that adopted him. Crime 492 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Michael worked as a manager and 493 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 1: the construction supply company owned by his aunt Evan and 494 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: her husband, Bonnie did their accounts. Evan claims that Michael 495 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: was often abusive to Bonnie at the office. Van also 496 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: says that at least once Michael's abuse became physical. One 497 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: day they got into an argument and a fight in 498 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: the parking lot, and she came in crying and he 499 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: had slammed her hand in the door. Her nails were broken. 500 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: She was very upset. At that point, Bonnie decided to 501 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: leave her husband. In preparation, she opened the bank account 502 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: in her own name to keep her plans secret. Bonnie 503 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: at the bank statement spaniled to her at work. Evan says, 504 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: Michael somehow found out and was furious. You were hearing 505 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: from our friends at Unsolved Mysteries regarding the disappearance of 506 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame. Throughout his life, Aaron, the three year old 507 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: when Mommy goes missing, is tortured by dreams, by what 508 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: he thinks recollections about what happened to his mom. He 509 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: told everyone he knew, and seemingly no one would listen 510 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: to Aaron Hame until finally he wins the deed to 511 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: his childhood home in North Jacksonville. He goes back to 512 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: the home. Listen to our friend Scott Johnson w j 513 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: XT News for Jacksonville. He took possession of the home 514 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: around two thousand and three and leased it to renters. 515 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: Then he was planning to sell the home in twenty 516 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: fourteen and was removing the pool and an external shower. 517 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: You're in the dirt underneath the shower. He finds a 518 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: bag accidentally busted up the bag and I saw what 519 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: I describe as like something that looked like coconut. It 520 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: was a fibrous material, just like a like a brown coconut. 521 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: The coconut was, in fact the skull of his biological mother. 522 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: I picked up the coconut object and it ended up 523 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: being the top portion of her skull. I looked at it, 524 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: we hand I had it in my hand. I didn't 525 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: really see anything. I handed at the thad and he 526 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: looked back in the hole and we could see teeth 527 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: and that at that point in time, you could you 528 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: could see the top portion of her eye sockets. You 529 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: are hearing Aaron Ham now Aaron Frasier describing his quest 530 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: ending in his own back yard. Throughout his life, he 531 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: is tortured about what happened to his mom. Where is mommy? 532 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: He wins back the deed to his childhood home in 533 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: Jacksonville and makes this horrible, horrible discovery to doctor Chris Berry, 534 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: former chief Medical Examiner with a State of Georgia. Once 535 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: you've seen a human skull, you know it when you 536 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: see it, you know it's not an animal skull. You 537 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: know what it is. There's just some things you don't confuse. 538 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: That's one of them. What would that have a look 539 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: to like? It really looks round, you know, the whole 540 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: top of the skull and most of the head is 541 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: just round and round and smooth, and you know, he 542 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: described it as thinking was a coconut, which actually makes 543 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: rather sense because you know the mind looking looking at 544 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: a skull, especially the top of the skull like this. 545 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: On one hand, you know, the brain that you know 546 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: maybe knows what it is or suspects, but you don't. 547 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: The other part of your brain doesn't want to really 548 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: admit that this is a human skull. Now the lower parts, 549 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: and he describes seeing the orbits. Once you get down 550 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: to the lower part of the skull then that it 551 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: doesn't look like anything else. You know that there's the 552 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: eye sockets and the cheek bones, and everything else begins 553 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 1: to fall into place. But it's very easy to see 554 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: how the initially he thought that this was something else. 555 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: To doctor Sperry, how long does it take for a 556 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: body buried under soil to become skeletonized, an unembalmed body 557 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: like this, the buried like this within easily somewhere about 558 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: six to eight months, there would be complete skeletonization. That is, 559 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: all the soft tissue would be gone. It takes about 560 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: a year for the greasiness on the bones to disappear, 561 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: So that's A general way to tell how long a 562 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: body has been buried is by looking at the bones, 563 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: and if there's still greasy or waxy feeling coating on 564 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: the bones, it's been less than a year. Okayna, you 565 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: just tell me something new after all these years. Dger 566 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: Sperry wire bones, human bones. As you say, greasy, I've 567 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: never heard that before. Oh well, it's because our bodies, 568 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: all of our bodies, of course, they have a lot 569 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: of muscle, but we also have have fat, and the 570 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: fat degenerates actually relatively slowly, and as the soft tissues 571 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: the muscle, the other organs generally decompose and dissolve. The 572 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: fat remains behind as just kind of a greasy, slimy residue. 573 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: The bones, of course will last for years, but this 574 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: slimy residue will stay on the bones until eventually, you know, 575 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: it is decomposed and the bones then become clean, if 576 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: you will, they may be brown discolored from being down 577 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: in the ground. The greasy residue from the decomposing fat 578 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: that stays apparent. Like I said, it's easily visible and 579 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: you can feel it when you're feeling the bones and 580 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: gloved hands. For about a year Okay, I just had 581 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: to pause, al and digest everything you just told me. 582 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: I give yourselthing else to digest. What came out was 583 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: that police searched that yard a couple times, including the 584 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: ground penetrating radar, didn't find anything, and it's believed that 585 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: the body was somewhere else. And then they get a 586 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: mysterious letter in nineteen ninety six that body Haymes remains 587 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: were in the backyard. They never followed that up. Oh 588 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: my stars, Okay, Frank Powers, assignment manager needs for Jackson, 589 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: tell me that again. When the remains were found in 590 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, police had said, we searched that backyard a 591 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: couple of times, including with ground penetrating radar, they didn't 592 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: find anything. What came out was that apparently the body 593 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: was somewhere else. In nineteen ninety six, don't know from who, 594 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: anonymous letter came to the police department say search the 595 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: backyard now because her remains are there, they never did so. 596 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: In excavating and getting rid of the pool, and they 597 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: come across a plastic sheeting that looks like maybe a 598 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: bag he the sun now grown, breaks it open with 599 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: a shovel, reaches inside and finds his own mother's skull. 600 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: He says he could actually see the top of the 601 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 1: eye socket. So the case goes to trial because who 602 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: else could it have been other than Michael Ham? Right, 603 00:35:38,160 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: sounds simple. Take a listen to this, right you really? 604 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: You were musical physical Oh. Michael Ham was convicted over 605 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: twenty years later because his son Aaron never gave up 606 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: on what happened to mommy. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing 607 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: off goodbye friend.