WEBVTT - An Overshadowed Epidemic: Sam Quinones Talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.880 Journalists. Sam ken Units is the author of a new book, 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:04.720 The Least of Us True Tales of America and The 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:06.880 Hope and Hope in the Time of Fentyl and Meth 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.280 joins us for Armstrong and Getty extra Large because four hours, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:21.040 simply enough, this is Armstrong and Getty extra Large. Sam, 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:26.560 How are you, sir? Terrific? Thanks? It really excited to 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.240 be talking to you today. I apologize that my co 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.440 host is not with us. He is uh. He added 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.960 surgery yesterday and was ironically under the influence of powerful painkillers. 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.599 How anything like that and died well. I hope you're 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.680 doing well well, thank you. So I've admired your work 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.600 for a very long time, um, and so this is 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.960 it's great to talk um. Sam might be best known, 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.320 if not for writing for The l A Times for 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.800 a decade from about two thousand two thousand fourteen, for 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.080 then for his his best selling book in dream Land, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.880 which was about the opioid epidemic in the house and 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.040 Where's and wins of that? When when you were wrapping 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.560 that book up in I'll bet you couldn't dream of 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.240 the reality we're dealing with now. That's in fact the case. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.319 I had I was. I've been a I've been a 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.760 crime reporter for a lot of years, and um, really 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.160 I just could not imagine what you would write about 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.000 after Heroin, right, It just seemed to me like that 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.040 was about as bad as it could dead. And then 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.600 the book comes out, it generates I think, a lot 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.200 of awareness and a lot of interests across the country. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.120 I began to do a lot of speaking over the 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.000 next several years, and along the way I figured out 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.759 what comes after Heroin, and out of course is as 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.560 fretnal and so that that led in in large parts 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.240 to the to the book I just put out. Well 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.280 we uh. I read with interest the excerpt from your 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.960 new book in The Atlantic entitled I don't know that 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.280 I would even call it meth anymore. And we've spent 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.240 a lot of time talking about that, partly because the 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.280 show is based on the West Coast, and there is 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.800 hardly a West Coast city of more than six thousand 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.680 people that does not have a serious problem with quote 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:08.760 unquote homelessness or homeless camps and that sort of thing. Uh. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.120 And I think to a very large extent, those are 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.720 are junkie camps, their meth camps. But before we get 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.160 to the meth thing, which is fascinating, UM, let's talk 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.840 a little bit about opioids and heroin and fentanyl, which 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.000 we're not for the COVID thing, I think would be 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:31.480 an international conversation, it would be the leading conversation on earth. Probably. Yeah, well, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:36.919 it's it's it's certainly um extraordinarily important and perhaps because 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:42.519 because of COVID not really getting the attention uh it deserves. Basically, 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.360 stuntonol is suttinol is a is a wonderful um drug. 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.280 Medically speaking, it's highly likely that your your your colleague 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.440 is being given sutonol as we speak at revolutionized surgery. 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.760 It allowed for anesthesia that that really wasn't possible before that. 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.720 And of course that's all of the medical context. But 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.359 once in the hounds of the underworld, it's it's, it's 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.280 a whole other story. Fentinol is very powerful, much more 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.520 powerful than morphine, much more powerful than than than than 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.280 than heroin. And um, it's part of on the street 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.840 and it's part of the Mexican trafficking worlds. Uh shift 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.080 you might say, away from what they traditionally focused on, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.239 which were plant based drugs, marijuana, course, first opium poppy 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:36.680 too um away from plant based drugs and towards synthetics. UM. 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.720 This happened with methem fettlement. But then as the opioid 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.080 epidemic took took shape in our country, lots of people 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.880 began shifting to heroin. They began producing heroin Downto Mexico, 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.240 more of it than they've ever had before. And along 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.360 the way they discover centinel. This is a synthetic heroin. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.080 You make it with chemicals only. The benefits of synthetic 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:01.040 drugs over plant based drugs to a trafficker are many. Right, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.520 you don't need land. You really just need a warehouse 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.040 or some kind or some place to to put your 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:12.080 your lab. That's very small. And then you don't need rain, sunshine, 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.000 you don't need farmers to harvest it. You don't need 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.960 um just a lot of things, pesticides, etcetera. All you 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:24.320 really need is access to shipping ports. Once you have 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.280 access to shipping ports, which they do on the Pacific 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.920 coast of Mexico, there's two major ports right down there. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.560 Um you you get you can get access then to 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.840 all the world the world chemical market, which is vast 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.520 and teage and and it comes from China, but it 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.360 also can come from like almost any country. Really, once 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.360 you have which you have a port to receive it 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.520 uh in. And so that is what's been going on. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.320 It really their their their move a wave towards synthetic 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.960 drugs really begin with method fettlement years ago and that's 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.839 changed to recently, as I wrote wrote about in the 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.640 book and in the extra Your Front tip Um. But 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.760 and then along the way they discover funnel and another 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.400 story that I talked about in the book, how the 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:11.480 Solwer drug Cartel discovers funnel very interesting tale um largely 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.920 due to one one underground chemist in particular. But what 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.240 that means is that they can produce now drugs um 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.400 all year round. There's no seasons anymore, right, there's no 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.520 summer and fall when you have synthetic drugs. And if 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.880 you can get the chemicals that you need UM, you 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.560 can produce it in just studying quantities. And that is 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.680 really what's happening. They they control when at least when 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.240 it comes to those those chemicals, they they control the 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.480 traffic at the at these courts. They're able to produce 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:47.599 both sentinel and methem petomen in quantities that are absolutely 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:53.120 um staggering, just unprecedented quantities, so much so that they've 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.880 done something that is really unprecedented in this uh, in 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:03.000 this country where one source underground underworld's source has been 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:08.479 able to effectively cover the entire country with these with 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.760 these two drugs, and in methem sediments case, the prices 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.479 has collapsed, so in many areas the price of methem 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.560 fedoment is lower than it was a few years a 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.440 serious back. But whatever the case, they now have these 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.039 drugs are now all across the country. There you know, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.640 New England never had any methem fedoment and now it does. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.280 You know, notton always found everywhere. And so this is 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.800 the the enormous uh fact that we are now having 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.359 to contend with as a country. Well, I was going 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.839 to say one of the obvious advantages to smuggler is 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.520 that the stuff is so incredibly powerful. A small amount 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.479 will get many many people high. But it sounds like 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.479 it's so profitable that that they're taking the risks such 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.000 as they are to ship enormous amounts of this stuff. Hey, 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.479 remind us, I think we've all heard anecdotal you know, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.440 the bits of quote unquote trivia about how you know 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.480 an ounce of fentinel can kill X number of people. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:07.680 It's really quite astounding, isn't it. Well, fentanyl is is um, yes, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.800 it's you know, a few grains of salt is what 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.960 you're talking about, normally to kill a person who is 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.640 UH doesn't have any tolerance to the drug. Again, this 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.080 is an opioid, like heroin, like morphine. It develops, you 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.080 develop tolerance on it. But if you have none, um, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.160 you know, a few grains of salt is all it's 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.080 really going to take that. What that means is that 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.040 this is more profitable than any other drug that the 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:36.720 underworld has ever encountered. However, what it also means is 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.800 that to access that profited they need to now mix 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.080 it with something. It is not commercially viable to sell 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.000 a few grains of salt on the street, you know 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.280 what I mean, So you have to mix it with powder. 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:53.560 The problem is they're extraordinarily bad at mixing UH this 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.840 kind of stuff. They don't know what they're Most people 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.560 on the street don't know what they're doing. Some people 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.560 in Mexico seem to maybe know, but but not but 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.440 not the majority. And so right and clearly the margin 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.960 for air is so incredibly small with something that powerful. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.600 Exactly right early on in the book, UM, I tell 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.080 the story of how early on when fentinel first started 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.800 coming over here from China being mailed through the mail 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.120 or largely and you know, kilos or half kilos or 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.200 pounds size, it is not very large. Um. People here 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.560 didn't know how to mix it either, UM, and they 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.680 the myth grew that you could mix it best with 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.640 a magic bullet blender. The magic bullet blender that you 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.920 see a target for, like I guess I think it was. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.319 We We only one at our house, UM, and they 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.480 make it's great for making smoothies. It is really bad 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.800 machine for mixing fannel, largely because fentinel is normally a potty. 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.400 You're trying to mix it with other powders, other white powders, 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.120 so that you can then sell it. The problem is 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.360 when you mix it that way m with a magic 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.760 bullet blender, it's got a blade. The blade mixes liquid, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.680 it doesn't mix powders at all. And so what you 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.160 began to see where these clusters of overdosees, you know, 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.559 twenty fifty in a weekend in Cincinnati, seventy in a 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.200 weekend and Huntington, West Virginia. UM. Uh that that that 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.480 kind of thing. And it's just this this drug is 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.960 so difficult to mix that it's by itself because of 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.040 that very very um dangerous And every every time you 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.240 use it's it's it's a crapshoot and uh, you know, 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.120 it's a it's a Russian game of Russian Roulette almost 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.720 every time. Now, So to what extent is it still 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.920 being manufactured in China And to what extent is it 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.040 being cranked out of lambs in Mexico? No, No, it's 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.160 all shifted to Mexico. Now, the two thousand nineteen, the 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.679 Chinese government put a put a rule in place UM 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.360 only certain companies can produce it, and all these other 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.520 ones had to stop. And they're pretty scared of the 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.440 government there, so they did. And but they still sell 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.400 the ingredients, you know, the rest of the ingredients in channel, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.720 they're still sold out of China. And the major uh 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.839 customers for that to believe that are the folks in 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.400 Mexico who have now learned how to do that. They 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.720 know now how to make UM. In fact, the truth 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.199 is you would not be able to cover the country 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:18.240 with centinel. The waste sentinel is covering the country now. Um, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.280 with the mounts that we're coming in from China in packages, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.120 you know, small packages, you know a pound here, a 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.839 kilo there. That's not that would never be able to 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.480 do the coverage. It's it has to be with a 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.600 with a country with which we share a two thousand 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.000 mile border. That that which with which we have free trade, 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.200 and so we have all that that stuff is coming 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.120 through walls, it's all coming through border crossing is most 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.840 heavily guarded stuff in the quarter. Crossing is almost in 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.520 the in the world outside maybe Korea and North Korea. 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.400 But um, but it's it's it's getting it's getting through 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.880 in quantities that never you could never really feasibly mail, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.160 you know, from from from from China. So what's happening 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.040 now is because that shipment I'm saying that that source 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.960 has shifted to Mexico. So before we get more into 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.560 the logistics of the thing, help us understand the toll. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.440 How many people are dying of fentinel overdoses, Oh my goodness, 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.320 a great, great numbers, a hundred thousand a year every 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.199 till they have they just came out with statistics. The 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:27.160 CDC did that between April one, April twenty and Ape 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.080 a hundred thousand people died of overdoses. That's the record 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.280 that we've never gone over a hundred thousand before in 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.720 the history of this country. Um. It's it's a very 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.640 high numbers in many many states. There's a few where 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.240 it's dropped off. But I mean this is happening constantly 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.320 all across the country, and largely, Um it's because of 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:52.480 the mixing. It's also because the trafficking world, particularly at 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.840 the street level, has turned to making into mixing Fentinel 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.720 into other drugs. So I don't believe there's any cocaine 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.320 anymore in America, actually trust not to have Fentinel in it. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.880 Um Uh, it's it's it's like almost everything. You know, 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.360 the great actor who was in The Wire, Michael Michael 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.800 Kay Williams, he had a cocaine problem he was struggling 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.319 with for many years. Um he died. Uh, not from 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.600 the cocaine, but from the from the Fentinel that was 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.800 in his in his the batch or the packet or 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.040 whatever is that he bought. You see these things happening 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.160 frequently all across the country. He was a celebrated case, 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.559 but I mean there's many, many, many cases all across 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.680 the country. It's also the way through which the African 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.320 American community has been dying of in the opioid epidemics. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.240 When I wrote Dreamland, I could safely say I didn't 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.440 speak with any Black people for Dreamland because it was 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.720 really a white issue. It was like cent of all 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.880 victims were white, right. But with Sentinel, what's happened is 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.480 dealers at the in the in the black community have 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.400 figured out if I could ask dealers have all across 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.240 the country, I put my Futinel, which is dirt sheet, 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.600 but they're very cheap. A little bit of Fentinel into 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.360 a cocaine all of these them will boost it. But 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.520 also what it'll do is it's almost like a business 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.520 um expansion move. So if you have a cocaine buyer, 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.920 normally those folks will buy every few days, maybe it 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.199 take a week vacation from the dope or whatever, maybe 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.600 even a month vacation whatever. They're not consistent buyers. But 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.320 once you have an opioid addict, that that that person 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.800 has to buy from you every single day, no vacation 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.960 because the dope sickness is a bear, and they're trying 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.840 to keep the dope sickness await. And so what what 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.440 ends up happening is from a cocaine customer, you had 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.240 Sentinel to the cocaine. Pretty soon you have an opioid addict. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.720 And this is happening all across the country. Uh as well, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.080 what's happening now is the people who have survived their 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.960 first exposure to Sentinel, now they're addicted to to to 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.920 the drug and they need Sentinel. So now heroin is 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:59.240 almost worthless, right, Hero's worthless because there's no um it 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.960 won't it's two mild to keep the dolt sickness away. 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.240 Now you need Sentinel, and the problem is there again, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.280 as I was saying earlier, the mixes is frequently so unpredictable, 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.680 and the only thing that really predict about it is 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.480 that it's going to be bad eventually. Whatever you use 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.080 will eventually be a bad mix and and we'll will 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.040 kill you. And that's kind of what's happening now all 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.560 across all across the country. Used to just be happening 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.000 in the area where the opioid epidemic was bad. You know, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.200 the first state really, Ohio was the place where it 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.400 first started. That in in my in the book The 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.560 Least of Us and in the book that just published, 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.560 I focus on Acron and Cleveland and some of these 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.960 other towns where where this first hit in two thousand fourteen, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.120 Cincinnati and then into West Virginia as well. It didn't 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.480 really hit, didn't pardon me, the West coast, I would say, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.560 until maybe you know, two eighteen, it's it. It took 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.200 takes a while before it kind of catches up. Yeah. Well, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.560 and I know enough about drugs and addiction, and some 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.200 of my musical heroes have died of overdoses that when 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.800 when folks stumble on the road to recovery, they decided 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.160 to go back and have another hit or whatever, often 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.840 their tolerance is down from where it was, and they'll 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:10.960 take the same hit, for instance, of heroin that they 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.360 used to it'll kill them. Well, this has got to 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.440 be that affect times, I don't know, ten times a 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.240 hundred in terms of the risk of having one more hit. 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.400 That's the thing. There's no more um in America, there's 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.920 no more surviving recreational drug use and one that's that's 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.440 the bottom line. I have to say that that. You know, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.560 I'm sixty two. I grew up in an era when 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.360 it was almost like rude not to you know, take 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.400 a line of cocaine and some parties, and and the 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:43.480 truth is that, um, that that is uh those days, 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.560 I mean every every every line of cocaine, every uh 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.400 you know, Uh, it's it's it's these are um, you know, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.280 it's Russian roulette, right, so he listen, those old ideas 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.760 are gone. I realized this could be the topic of 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.440 another book or books. But in your opinion, and because 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.960 I know you've written about studied Mexico in terms of 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.560 the drug trade and a hundred other issues for a 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.760 long time, to what extent is Mexico a functioning government 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.720 and to what extent is it a narco state? Um, 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.760 that's a hard question to answer because there's certainly many 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.520 parts of the country that are auctioning. Clearly, UM, there 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.960 are certain areas and certain attitudes within certain elements of 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.520 the government government that I say, let's say lend itself 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:31.320 to um to something along those lines where you just 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:36.200 can't really um, you know, you can't that they are 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:40.840 functioning freely and and UM, in the state of Sinaloa, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:42.280 I have to say parts of the state of meat 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.120 Can where I used to go very very freely. I 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.840 lived in Mexico for ten years and I would travel 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.120 to metro Con very often, mostly to do stories about immigration, 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.960 because there's a lot of immigration coming out of meat Con. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.600 Now it's really it's a state I wouldn't go to 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.240 any more. Certain areas of the border like this in 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:05.239 parts of uh Of around the Golden Triangle, what they 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.000 call the areas that to waw Wa, durrangos in Aloa, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.160 the hill, the mountain areas there. Um, you know, these 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.280 are areas that are that are not safe and and 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.920 those areas keep on shifting to according to who's fighting 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.080 whom and you know, so the cartel world down there, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.760 I would say, when I was in Mexico, it was 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.480 very clear. You could draw the border, and you could 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.679 divide up the border according to like the way they 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.480 used to do with the Italian mob the five Families 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.840 in New York and Jersey and so, and you could see, okay, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.280 this is the Colombo, this is the Banano family. You 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.920 could do the same with the Houara's drug cartel that 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.240 you want to drug cartel. All these guys were from 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.879 sin a lawa, but they controlled parts of the border 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.520 far away from far within the Say, what's happened now 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.560 in the last fifteen years, really maybe longer? Really is 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.880 that all those easily definable groups of fragmented and now following, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.879 who is a cartel? And where these cartels are? And 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.560 I don't even call them carts tells anymore because here's 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.679 the difference between a cartel. I studied economics and college, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.439 and a cartel is a group that that that the 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.200 restricts product to drive price up. And that is the 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.200 opposite of what's happening in Mexico now. And that is 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:20.120 because they're not cartels in that strict sense. They are 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:24.719 groups that are kind of loosely affiliated and you know, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:30.399 sometimes fighting al among themselves, but loosely affiliated, but who concerned. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.040 There's nobody really controlling production of these starts that everyone 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:35.919 was kind of free to do what they want. A 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.720 lot of the guys have taken like those like those uh, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.399 those merchants who sold the gold miners their shovels and 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.159 tents during the gold rush. They're selling them the chemicals. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.240 That's how people are probably most likely getting getting wealthy. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.120 And it doesn't matter. They want people to make more, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.320 and so you have these collapse and prices. It's amazing 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:59.840 thing with methempedomen Methempedoman's prices effectively dropped by about a 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.359 d percent. It depends on the region, obviously, but about 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.960 eight percent all acroass the country, even as they covered 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.600 the entire country. You know, So there's meth in Vermont 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.520 and New Hampshire that never used to be there, and 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.719 the prices all over the country are below what they 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.840 what they've what they've been historically, according to the d 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.119 e A and agents who talked to you you on in 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.840 these different areas. I'm in Nashville. At the moment, a 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.800 pound of an ounce of let's just say, an ounce 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:29.000 of matthews to be hundred fifty dollars. Now it's like 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.720 about two d Wow. At least the price of something 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.000 is dropping, he says, fully cognizant of how distasteful that 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.600 joke is. Uh so, um, if you were dragged in 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.359 front of Congress to the White House or whatever and asked, 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:44.879 what in the world can we do to stem the 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.840 flow of fentinel into the country, because the death toll 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:51.520 is just astounding. Is there anything we can do well, 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.600 I think I think there's a few things on the 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.639 national level that we we absolutely need to do. I 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.000 was overwhelmed by this feeling when I lived in max 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.159 to code that we have never established the relationship. Our 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.800 relationship with Mexico is ought to be equal in the 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.520 minds of our policy makers, in our government and so on, 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:15.520 and the political class, and so to any relationship we 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:19.040 have in the world to England, out we have with England, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.800 with Japan, with Russia, with China. It's fraud, it's difficult, 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.399 but we need to make it a priority of the 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.600 equal to those countries that I just said. And when 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.200 we do that, we don't like you know, how many 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:36.280 people can actually Americans can actually name the six Mexican 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.760 border states with the United States and that that kind 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.720 of basic stuff. We just don't know about Mexico. You know, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.040 it's just not even there. And and so I believe 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.560 that once we have this relationship, we can't There are 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:54.640 lots of Mexicans I know who would be very happy 0:20:54.760 --> 0:21:01.040 to have their government pushed to address the horrible corruption 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.080 in there um in a criminal justice. So really it's 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.600 almost not just even corruption, it's just simply the institutions 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.120 are unbelievably weak. It's not anything like we have here 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.800 in the United States, except for maybe in the smallest 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.439 town kind of shriff corrupt sheriff kind of idea, you know, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.119 or stuff that we used to have in the thirties 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.560 under al Capone. It's that kind of thing, you know. 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.880 And I think that that many Mexicans are begging for that. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.680 This is not something that is a debatable point. I 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.760 don't think in Mexico. We absolutely this is this is 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.040 running our country into the ground. Um. The other thing 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.520 I think we need to do as a country in 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.440 the United States is this is a binational problem, and 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.040 that is that the guns that are purchased easily here 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:47.320 are what ensures that impunity down in Mexico. So many 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.640 of those guns are smuggled into Mexico, smuggled south, uh 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.679 and usually in small quantities, not big truckloads of hundreds 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.879 of guns or anything like That's usually you know of 0:21:56.960 --> 0:21:59.240 the five, ten, twenty here and there, and and but 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.679 over period of years it adds up and that is 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:07.200 what ensures their impunity. The price of of an a 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.320 K forty seven made in Eastern Europe sold legally here 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:13.840 into into the United States and then bought here illegally 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.280 in the United States and then smuggled south. The price 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.240 of that is too is meth and petomen for two 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:26.320