1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Journalists. Sam ken Units is the author of a new book, 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: The Least of Us True Tales of America and The 3 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Hope and Hope in the Time of Fentyl and Meth 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: joins us for Armstrong and Getty extra Large because four hours, 5 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: simply enough, this is Armstrong and Getty extra Large. Sam, 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: How are you, sir? Terrific? Thanks? It really excited to 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: be talking to you today. I apologize that my co 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: host is not with us. He is uh. He added 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: surgery yesterday and was ironically under the influence of powerful painkillers. 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: How anything like that and died well. I hope you're 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: doing well well, thank you. So I've admired your work 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: for a very long time, um, and so this is 13 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: it's great to talk um. Sam might be best known, 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: if not for writing for The l A Times for 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: a decade from about two thousand two thousand fourteen, for 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: then for his his best selling book in dream Land, 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: which was about the opioid epidemic in the house and 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Where's and wins of that? When when you were wrapping 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: that book up in I'll bet you couldn't dream of 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: the reality we're dealing with now. That's in fact the case. 21 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: I had I was. I've been a I've been a 22 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: crime reporter for a lot of years, and um, really 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: I just could not imagine what you would write about 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: after Heroin, right, It just seemed to me like that 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: was about as bad as it could dead. And then 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: the book comes out, it generates I think, a lot 27 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: of awareness and a lot of interests across the country. 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: I began to do a lot of speaking over the 29 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: next several years, and along the way I figured out 30 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: what comes after Heroin, and out of course is as 31 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: fretnal and so that that led in in large parts 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: to the to the book I just put out. Well 33 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: we uh. I read with interest the excerpt from your 34 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: new book in The Atlantic entitled I don't know that 35 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: I would even call it meth anymore. And we've spent 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about that, partly because the 37 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: show is based on the West Coast, and there is 38 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: hardly a West Coast city of more than six thousand 39 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: people that does not have a serious problem with quote 40 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: unquote homelessness or homeless camps and that sort of thing. Uh. 41 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: And I think to a very large extent, those are 42 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: are junkie camps, their meth camps. But before we get 43 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: to the meth thing, which is fascinating, UM, let's talk 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: a little bit about opioids and heroin and fentanyl, which 45 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: we're not for the COVID thing, I think would be 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: an international conversation, it would be the leading conversation on earth. Probably. Yeah, well, 47 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: it's it's it's certainly um extraordinarily important and perhaps because 48 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: because of COVID not really getting the attention uh it deserves. Basically, 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: stuntonol is suttinol is a is a wonderful um drug. 50 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: Medically speaking, it's highly likely that your your your colleague 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: is being given sutonol as we speak at revolutionized surgery. 52 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: It allowed for anesthesia that that really wasn't possible before that. 53 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: And of course that's all of the medical context. But 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: once in the hounds of the underworld, it's it's, it's 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: a whole other story. Fentinol is very powerful, much more 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: powerful than morphine, much more powerful than than than than 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: than heroin. And um, it's part of on the street 58 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: and it's part of the Mexican trafficking worlds. Uh shift 59 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: you might say, away from what they traditionally focused on, 60 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: which were plant based drugs, marijuana, course, first opium poppy 61 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: too um away from plant based drugs and towards synthetics. UM. 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: This happened with methem fettlement. But then as the opioid 63 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: epidemic took took shape in our country, lots of people 64 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: began shifting to heroin. They began producing heroin Downto Mexico, 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: more of it than they've ever had before. And along 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: the way they discover centinel. This is a synthetic heroin. 67 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: You make it with chemicals only. The benefits of synthetic 68 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: drugs over plant based drugs to a trafficker are many. Right, 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: you don't need land. You really just need a warehouse 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: or some kind or some place to to put your 71 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: your lab. That's very small. And then you don't need rain, sunshine, 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: you don't need farmers to harvest it. You don't need 73 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: um just a lot of things, pesticides, etcetera. All you 74 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: really need is access to shipping ports. Once you have 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: access to shipping ports, which they do on the Pacific 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: coast of Mexico, there's two major ports right down there. 77 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Um you you get you can get access then to 78 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: all the world the world chemical market, which is vast 79 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: and teage and and it comes from China, but it 80 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: also can come from like almost any country. Really, once 81 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: you have which you have a port to receive it 82 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: uh in. And so that is what's been going on. 83 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: It really their their their move a wave towards synthetic 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: drugs really begin with method fettlement years ago and that's 85 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: changed to recently, as I wrote wrote about in the 86 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: book and in the extra Your Front tip Um. But 87 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and then along the way they discover funnel and another 88 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: story that I talked about in the book, how the 89 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: Solwer drug Cartel discovers funnel very interesting tale um largely 90 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: due to one one underground chemist in particular. But what 91 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: that means is that they can produce now drugs um 92 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: all year round. There's no seasons anymore, right, there's no 93 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: summer and fall when you have synthetic drugs. And if 94 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: you can get the chemicals that you need UM, you 95 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: can produce it in just studying quantities. And that is 96 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: really what's happening. They they control when at least when 97 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: it comes to those those chemicals, they they control the 98 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: traffic at the at these courts. They're able to produce 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: both sentinel and methem petomen in quantities that are absolutely 100 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: um staggering, just unprecedented quantities, so much so that they've 101 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: done something that is really unprecedented in this uh, in 102 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: this country where one source underground underworld's source has been 103 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: able to effectively cover the entire country with these with 104 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: these two drugs, and in methem sediments case, the prices 105 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: has collapsed, so in many areas the price of methem 106 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: fedoment is lower than it was a few years a 107 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: serious back. But whatever the case, they now have these 108 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: drugs are now all across the country. There you know, 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: New England never had any methem fedoment and now it does. 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: You know, notton always found everywhere. And so this is 111 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: the the enormous uh fact that we are now having 112 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: to contend with as a country. Well, I was going 113 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: to say one of the obvious advantages to smuggler is 114 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: that the stuff is so incredibly powerful. A small amount 115 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: will get many many people high. But it sounds like 116 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: it's so profitable that that they're taking the risks such 117 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: as they are to ship enormous amounts of this stuff. Hey, 118 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: remind us, I think we've all heard anecdotal you know, 119 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: the bits of quote unquote trivia about how you know 120 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: an ounce of fentinel can kill X number of people. 121 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: It's really quite astounding, isn't it. Well, fentanyl is is um, yes, 122 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: it's you know, a few grains of salt is what 123 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about, normally to kill a person who is 124 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: UH doesn't have any tolerance to the drug. Again, this 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: is an opioid, like heroin, like morphine. It develops, you 126 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: develop tolerance on it. But if you have none, um, 127 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, a few grains of salt is all it's 128 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: really going to take that. What that means is that 129 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: this is more profitable than any other drug that the 130 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: underworld has ever encountered. However, what it also means is 131 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: that to access that profited they need to now mix 132 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: it with something. It is not commercially viable to sell 133 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: a few grains of salt on the street, you know 134 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: what I mean, So you have to mix it with powder. 135 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: The problem is they're extraordinarily bad at mixing UH this 136 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. They don't know what they're Most people 137 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: on the street don't know what they're doing. Some people 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: in Mexico seem to maybe know, but but not but 139 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: not the majority. And so right and clearly the margin 140 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: for air is so incredibly small with something that powerful. 141 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Exactly right early on in the book, UM, I tell 142 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: the story of how early on when fentinel first started 143 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: coming over here from China being mailed through the mail 144 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: or largely and you know, kilos or half kilos or 145 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: pounds size, it is not very large. Um. People here 146 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: didn't know how to mix it either, UM, and they 147 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: the myth grew that you could mix it best with 148 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: a magic bullet blender. The magic bullet blender that you 149 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: see a target for, like I guess I think it was. 150 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: We We only one at our house, UM, and they 151 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: make it's great for making smoothies. It is really bad 152 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: machine for mixing fannel, largely because fentinel is normally a potty. 153 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: You're trying to mix it with other powders, other white powders, 154 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: so that you can then sell it. The problem is 155 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: when you mix it that way m with a magic 156 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: bullet blender, it's got a blade. The blade mixes liquid, 157 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't mix powders at all. And so what you 158 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: began to see where these clusters of overdosees, you know, 159 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: twenty fifty in a weekend in Cincinnati, seventy in a 160 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: weekend and Huntington, West Virginia. UM. Uh that that that 161 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And it's just this this drug is 162 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: so difficult to mix that it's by itself because of 163 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: that very very um dangerous And every every time you 164 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: use it's it's it's a crapshoot and uh, you know, 165 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's a Russian game of Russian Roulette almost 166 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: every time. Now, So to what extent is it still 167 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: being manufactured in China And to what extent is it 168 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: being cranked out of lambs in Mexico? No, No, it's 169 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: all shifted to Mexico. Now, the two thousand nineteen, the 170 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: Chinese government put a put a rule in place UM 171 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: only certain companies can produce it, and all these other 172 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: ones had to stop. And they're pretty scared of the 173 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: government there, so they did. And but they still sell 174 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: the ingredients, you know, the rest of the ingredients in channel, 175 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: they're still sold out of China. And the major uh 176 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: customers for that to believe that are the folks in 177 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: Mexico who have now learned how to do that. They 178 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: know now how to make UM. In fact, the truth 179 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: is you would not be able to cover the country 180 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: with centinel. The waste sentinel is covering the country now. Um, 181 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: with the mounts that we're coming in from China in packages, 182 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, small packages, you know a pound here, a 183 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: kilo there. That's not that would never be able to 184 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: do the coverage. It's it has to be with a 185 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: with a country with which we share a two thousand 186 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: mile border. That that which with which we have free trade, 187 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: and so we have all that that stuff is coming 188 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: through walls, it's all coming through border crossing is most 189 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: heavily guarded stuff in the quarter. Crossing is almost in 190 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: the in the world outside maybe Korea and North Korea. 191 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: But um, but it's it's it's getting it's getting through 192 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: in quantities that never you could never really feasibly mail, 193 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, from from from from China. So what's happening 194 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: now is because that shipment I'm saying that that source 195 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: has shifted to Mexico. So before we get more into 196 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: the logistics of the thing, help us understand the toll. 197 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: How many people are dying of fentinel overdoses, Oh my goodness, 198 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: a great, great numbers, a hundred thousand a year every 199 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: till they have they just came out with statistics. The 200 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: CDC did that between April one, April twenty and Ape 201 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people died of overdoses. That's the record 202 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: that we've never gone over a hundred thousand before in 203 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: the history of this country. Um. It's it's a very 204 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: high numbers in many many states. There's a few where 205 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: it's dropped off. But I mean this is happening constantly 206 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: all across the country, and largely, Um it's because of 207 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: the mixing. It's also because the trafficking world, particularly at 208 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: the street level, has turned to making into mixing Fentinel 209 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: into other drugs. So I don't believe there's any cocaine 210 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: anymore in America, actually trust not to have Fentinel in it. 211 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: Um Uh, it's it's it's like almost everything. You know, 212 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: the great actor who was in The Wire, Michael Michael 213 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: Kay Williams, he had a cocaine problem he was struggling 214 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: with for many years. Um he died. Uh, not from 215 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: the cocaine, but from the from the Fentinel that was 216 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: in his in his the batch or the packet or 217 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: whatever is that he bought. You see these things happening 218 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: frequently all across the country. He was a celebrated case, 219 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: but I mean there's many, many, many cases all across 220 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: the country. It's also the way through which the African 221 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: American community has been dying of in the opioid epidemics. 222 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: When I wrote Dreamland, I could safely say I didn't 223 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: speak with any Black people for Dreamland because it was 224 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: really a white issue. It was like cent of all 225 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: victims were white, right. But with Sentinel, what's happened is 226 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: dealers at the in the in the black community have 227 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: figured out if I could ask dealers have all across 228 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: the country, I put my Futinel, which is dirt sheet, 229 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: but they're very cheap. A little bit of Fentinel into 230 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: a cocaine all of these them will boost it. But 231 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: also what it'll do is it's almost like a business 232 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: um expansion move. So if you have a cocaine buyer, 233 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: normally those folks will buy every few days, maybe it 234 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: take a week vacation from the dope or whatever, maybe 235 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: even a month vacation whatever. They're not consistent buyers. But 236 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: once you have an opioid addict, that that that person 237 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: has to buy from you every single day, no vacation 238 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: because the dope sickness is a bear, and they're trying 239 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: to keep the dope sickness await. And so what what 240 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: ends up happening is from a cocaine customer, you had 241 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: Sentinel to the cocaine. Pretty soon you have an opioid addict. 242 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: And this is happening all across the country. Uh as well, 243 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: what's happening now is the people who have survived their 244 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: first exposure to Sentinel, now they're addicted to to to 245 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: the drug and they need Sentinel. So now heroin is 246 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: almost worthless, right, Hero's worthless because there's no um it 247 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: won't it's two mild to keep the dolt sickness away. 248 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: Now you need Sentinel, and the problem is there again, 249 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: as I was saying earlier, the mixes is frequently so unpredictable, 250 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: and the only thing that really predict about it is 251 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: that it's going to be bad eventually. Whatever you use 252 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: will eventually be a bad mix and and we'll will 253 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: kill you. And that's kind of what's happening now all 254 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: across all across the country. Used to just be happening 255 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: in the area where the opioid epidemic was bad. You know, 256 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: the first state really, Ohio was the place where it 257 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: first started. That in in my in the book The 258 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: Least of Us and in the book that just published, 259 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: I focus on Acron and Cleveland and some of these 260 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: other towns where where this first hit in two thousand fourteen, 261 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Cincinnati and then into West Virginia as well. It didn't 262 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: really hit, didn't pardon me, the West coast, I would say, 263 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: until maybe you know, two eighteen, it's it. It took 264 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: takes a while before it kind of catches up. Yeah. Well, 265 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: and I know enough about drugs and addiction, and some 266 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: of my musical heroes have died of overdoses that when 267 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: when folks stumble on the road to recovery, they decided 268 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: to go back and have another hit or whatever, often 269 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: their tolerance is down from where it was, and they'll 270 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: take the same hit, for instance, of heroin that they 271 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: used to it'll kill them. Well, this has got to 272 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: be that affect times, I don't know, ten times a 273 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: hundred in terms of the risk of having one more hit. 274 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: That's the thing. There's no more um in America, there's 275 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: no more surviving recreational drug use and one that's that's 276 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: the bottom line. I have to say that that. You know, 277 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: I'm sixty two. I grew up in an era when 278 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: it was almost like rude not to you know, take 279 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: a line of cocaine and some parties, and and the 280 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: truth is that, um, that that is uh those days, 281 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: I mean every every every line of cocaine, every uh 282 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, it's it's it's these are um, you know, 283 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: it's Russian roulette, right, so he listen, those old ideas 284 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: are gone. I realized this could be the topic of 285 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: another book or books. But in your opinion, and because 286 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: I know you've written about studied Mexico in terms of 287 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: the drug trade and a hundred other issues for a 288 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: long time, to what extent is Mexico a functioning government 289 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: and to what extent is it a narco state? Um, 290 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: that's a hard question to answer because there's certainly many 291 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: parts of the country that are auctioning. Clearly, UM, there 292 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: are certain areas and certain attitudes within certain elements of 293 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: the government government that I say, let's say lend itself 294 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: to um to something along those lines where you just 295 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: can't really um, you know, you can't that they are 296 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: functioning freely and and UM, in the state of Sinaloa, 297 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: I have to say parts of the state of meat 298 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: Can where I used to go very very freely. I 299 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: lived in Mexico for ten years and I would travel 300 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: to metro Con very often, mostly to do stories about immigration, 301 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of immigration coming out of meat Con. 302 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Now it's really it's a state I wouldn't go to 303 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: any more. Certain areas of the border like this in 304 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 1: parts of uh Of around the Golden Triangle, what they 305 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: call the areas that to waw Wa, durrangos in Aloa, 306 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: the hill, the mountain areas there. Um, you know, these 307 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: are areas that are that are not safe and and 308 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: those areas keep on shifting to according to who's fighting 309 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: whom and you know, so the cartel world down there, 310 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: I would say, when I was in Mexico, it was 311 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: very clear. You could draw the border, and you could 312 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: divide up the border according to like the way they 313 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: used to do with the Italian mob the five Families 314 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: in New York and Jersey and so, and you could see, okay, 315 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: this is the Colombo, this is the Banano family. You 316 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: could do the same with the Houara's drug cartel that 317 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: you want to drug cartel. All these guys were from 318 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: sin a lawa, but they controlled parts of the border 319 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: far away from far within the Say, what's happened now 320 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: in the last fifteen years, really maybe longer? Really is 321 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: that all those easily definable groups of fragmented and now following, 322 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: who is a cartel? And where these cartels are? And 323 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: I don't even call them carts tells anymore because here's 324 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: the difference between a cartel. I studied economics and college, 325 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: and a cartel is a group that that that the 326 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: restricts product to drive price up. And that is the 327 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: opposite of what's happening in Mexico now. And that is 328 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: because they're not cartels in that strict sense. They are 329 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: groups that are kind of loosely affiliated and you know, 330 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: sometimes fighting al among themselves, but loosely affiliated, but who concerned. 331 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: There's nobody really controlling production of these starts that everyone 332 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: was kind of free to do what they want. A 333 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: lot of the guys have taken like those like those uh, 334 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: those merchants who sold the gold miners their shovels and 335 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: tents during the gold rush. They're selling them the chemicals. 336 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: That's how people are probably most likely getting getting wealthy. 337 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter. They want people to make more, 338 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: and so you have these collapse and prices. It's amazing 339 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: thing with methempedomen Methempedoman's prices effectively dropped by about a 340 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: d percent. It depends on the region, obviously, but about 341 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: eight percent all acroass the country, even as they covered 342 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: the entire country. You know, So there's meth in Vermont 343 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: and New Hampshire that never used to be there, and 344 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: the prices all over the country are below what they 345 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: what they've what they've been historically, according to the d 346 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: e A and agents who talked to you you on in 347 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: these different areas. I'm in Nashville. At the moment, a 348 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: pound of an ounce of let's just say, an ounce 349 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: of matthews to be hundred fifty dollars. Now it's like 350 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: about two d Wow. At least the price of something 351 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: is dropping, he says, fully cognizant of how distasteful that 352 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: joke is. Uh so, um, if you were dragged in 353 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: front of Congress to the White House or whatever and asked, 354 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: what in the world can we do to stem the 355 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: flow of fentinel into the country, because the death toll 356 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: is just astounding. Is there anything we can do well, 357 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: I think I think there's a few things on the 358 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: national level that we we absolutely need to do. I 359 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: was overwhelmed by this feeling when I lived in max 360 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: to code that we have never established the relationship. Our 361 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: relationship with Mexico is ought to be equal in the 362 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: minds of our policy makers, in our government and so on, 363 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: and the political class, and so to any relationship we 364 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: have in the world to England, out we have with England, 365 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: with Japan, with Russia, with China. It's fraud, it's difficult, 366 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: but we need to make it a priority of the 367 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: equal to those countries that I just said. And when 368 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: we do that, we don't like you know, how many 369 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: people can actually Americans can actually name the six Mexican 370 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: border states with the United States and that that kind 371 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: of basic stuff. We just don't know about Mexico. You know, 372 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: it's just not even there. And and so I believe 373 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: that once we have this relationship, we can't There are 374 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: lots of Mexicans I know who would be very happy 375 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: to have their government pushed to address the horrible corruption 376 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: in there um in a criminal justice. So really it's 377 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: almost not just even corruption, it's just simply the institutions 378 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: are unbelievably weak. It's not anything like we have here 379 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: in the United States, except for maybe in the smallest 380 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: town kind of shriff corrupt sheriff kind of idea, you know, 381 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: or stuff that we used to have in the thirties 382 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: under al Capone. It's that kind of thing, you know. 383 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: And I think that that many Mexicans are begging for that. 384 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: This is not something that is a debatable point. I 385 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: don't think in Mexico. We absolutely this is this is 386 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: running our country into the ground. Um. The other thing 387 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: I think we need to do as a country in 388 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: the United States is this is a binational problem, and 389 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: that is that the guns that are purchased easily here 390 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: are what ensures that impunity down in Mexico. So many 391 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: of those guns are smuggled into Mexico, smuggled south, uh 392 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: and usually in small quantities, not big truckloads of hundreds 393 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: of guns or anything like That's usually you know of 394 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: the five, ten, twenty here and there, and and but 395 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: over period of years it adds up and that is 396 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: what ensures their impunity. The price of of an a 397 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: K forty seven made in Eastern Europe sold legally here 398 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: into into the United States and then bought here illegally 399 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: in the United States and then smuggled south. The price 400 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: of that is too is meth and petomen for two 401 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: dollars a pound, or announced rather in UM in Nashville, Tennessee. Boy, 402 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: you want to talk about a topic that will take 403 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: another book. I mean, that's that's a big one and 404 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: full of twists, turns and difficulties. Obviously, yeah so so 405 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: um incredibly troubling and deadly obviously. But let's turn to 406 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: uh the P two P meth. That was the main 407 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: topic of the excerpt from your book that was in 408 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: The Atlantic. The Jack and I talked about a great 409 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: deal we for what it's worth, you know. We we 410 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: definitely swing conservative politically speaking on most things. I hate labels. 411 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: Labors are for soup games. But um, it's also true 412 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: that we don't hate anybody. We're not. We try not 413 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: to be condescending unless it's intentional for the purpose as 414 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: a humor. And we have quite a number of listeners 415 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: who are either uh former drug drug addicts, recovering drug addicts, 416 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: former homeless people, tweakers, people with all sorts of sins 417 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: and all because they know we're not preaching at them. 418 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: We understand people make choices, sometimes they make bad choices, 419 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes life goes sideways. It happens, you can't happen 420 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: to anybody. You just have to take responsibility for you know, 421 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: the way you live your life is our point of view. 422 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: So we've talked to a hell of a lot of 423 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: people who have been on the streets or are currently 424 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: on the streets who say, everybody's a tweaker out here. 425 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: Everybody in the tent camps is doing meth. And they 426 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: don't mean literally every single human being. But there was 427 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: a report out of Portland. They had a couple of 428 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: guys who are now turning their lives around working for 429 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: the city. Is actually a really nice story. But they're saying, 430 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: oh my god, he's so called homeless temps are meth. 431 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: The homeless camps rather are meth camps. How did we 432 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: get to this point? And what effect is this new 433 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: meth which is actually kind of the old meth, this 434 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: P two P meth, what what effect is it happen? Right? Well, 435 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: this the roots of all this are the are in 436 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: the fact that the Mexican trafficking world, a few folks 437 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: who are in particular who are instrumental in all this 438 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: I talked about in the book. Um begins to understand 439 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: and learn how to make methum fedomen in the late eighties, 440 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: mostly in the San Diego Tijuana area, um uh and 441 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: um they make it. They were able to learn because 442 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: it's a very simple process. Then it uses a chemical 443 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: called the federan, so decongestent. It's found in pseudo fed 444 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: pills and all. That's why, that's why you can't buy 445 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: those things very easily, have to sign and there's a 446 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: behind lock and key and all. The ephedrian is a 447 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: very easy chemical. It's very effective and good decongestent, but 448 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: a couple of chemical tweaks and it becomes methum fedoment. 449 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: It's not really hard to do um so any almost 450 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: anybody can make and that it really democratizes how how 451 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 1: of uh meth can be made. But the folks who 452 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: really take greatest advantage of that, our Mexican trappickers increasingly 453 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: into the into the nineteen nineties, the labs that they 454 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: call them men super labs. That that acount sounds like 455 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: a bizarre term now given those quantities coming out of 456 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: Mexico today, but super lab would be fifty to one 457 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: hundred towns every time you cook that kind of thing. 458 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,239 Speaker 1: And you began to see this stuff in in the 459 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: central Valley of California, San Diego, to Mecuela, up in 460 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: the Bakersfield friends, and also and then also down into 461 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: into Mexico, and they really specialized and they industrialized this, 462 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: so they're able to produce the very large quantities of 463 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: stuff of this stuff, but it's always limited by the 464 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: amount of a phederan they can get. For a long 465 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: time it was legal. You could get hundreds of tons imported, 466 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of tons of imported in Mexico, and significant part 467 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: of that make methal and funniment. But there was never 468 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: enough to really cover the entire United States increasingly, really 469 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: it was just a lot of the West during you know, 470 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I say it's it never went east to the Mississippi River. Um, 471 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: A federal meth was a very euphoric drug. You would 472 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: stay up for several days, you wanted to be around 473 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: people gathering away, you know. Um. Your withdrawals from it 474 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: would be you basically slept solid for two days, you know, 475 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 1: and just we're out and then you were coherent. You 476 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: kind of returned more or less to your saying mental 477 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: state that you were before that, although over time clearly 478 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: it degraded your body and your mind. It took several 479 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: years to do those. But so to be in a 480 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: state where you really weren't functional, you would have to 481 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: abuse it for years, for a long time, and stay 482 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: up for many days. Once you stayed up for many days, 483 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: you began to see these what they call shadow people frequently. 484 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: You know there's somebody over there and you looking. Actually 485 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: there's nobody, but you know it's that kind of your 486 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: mind playing tricks on you, so to speak. In two 487 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, all that changes Mexico in two thousand 488 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: and eight, prompted by a number of of political reasons 489 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: that I go go into in the book where they 490 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: did this, but they make a veederan illegal except for 491 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: a few pharmaceutical companies to possess and use in their processes, 492 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: and and with that the Mexican trafficking world has to 493 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: figure out how to make the federan. I mean, I'm 494 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: not em fedoment. I'm sorry. Another another way, they've actually 495 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: been seeing this writing on the wall for a couple 496 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: of years by then two thousand six, and when they 497 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: first begin to start experimenting with this, by two thousand 498 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: and eight, the whole the wall shut slam shut, and 499 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: they now have to figure out a new So there 500 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: is another way of making me fedoment. It's it's really 501 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: not very easy. It's smelly, it's messy, a lot of 502 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: different chemicals. UM, it's not anything you'd want to use, 503 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: except for if you can't get a federan and so 504 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: and in this UH method uses a precursor known as 505 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: P two P penal to propanon, very commonly known in 506 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: the meth making UH world. UH. This method has one 507 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: benefit to traffickers over the Federman and that is that 508 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: you can make P two P easily and with many 509 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: different kind of chemical recipes or chemical hacks, using chemicals 510 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: that are widely available in industry. They're all industrial, they're 511 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: all legal, easily available in the world world markets. Half 512 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: most of them very highly highly toxic. Which if so, 513 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: if the government cracked down on this recipe of making 514 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: P twop, you can come back with this other one 515 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: and this one, and there's there's apparently dozens. In fact, 516 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: I think they never stopped inventing new ways of making P. 517 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: Two P. What this means is if you have access 518 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: to to chemicals, which the Mexican trafficking world does, as 519 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: I said, through these two ports on the Czivic coast 520 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: of Mexico, you can begin to make this stuff all 521 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: year round and in quantities that dwarf anything you were 522 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: capable of making with the pedment. And that's what begins 523 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: to happen. It not right off the bat, It takes 524 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: a couple of years, takes a few years when people 525 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: get used to this new reality. But certainly by two 526 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: thousand twelve thirteen fourteen, you begin to see quantities, just 527 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: staggering quantities coming through and marching across the country. So 528 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: in l a Portland's west coast, basically two thousand thirteen fourteen, 529 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: you're seeing this stuff. It hits the Midwest across the 530 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: Mississippi River for the first time. It hits the Midwest 531 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: by two thousand seventeen, and then hits the east coast 532 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: and up into New Windland, which never had any meth 533 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand nineteen, roughly in eighteen nineteen um and 534 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: so at the same time, as I said, it's producing 535 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: such quantities that the price drops to not only covered 536 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: the country, the price drops, but this, this methem fetomen 537 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: has been shown to be accompanied. And I use these 538 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: words carefully and I'll explain line a little bit is 539 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: accompanied every place along the way, according to my reporting 540 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: talking to people in all these different areas, by not 541 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: just not just this staying up line. A lot of days, 542 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: it's no longer a euphoric drug. It's a very sinister 543 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: It turns you inward. It's accompanied by um symptoms of schizophrenia. 544 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: So you see people of extraordinarily paranoid, very intense paranoia, 545 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: like everyone's out to get you, no one can be trusted, 546 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 1: and you're running because somebody, you think, somebody looks at 547 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: you strange, you know, and at the same time, very 548 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: very florid, intense hallucinations. Now, now, Sam, let me let 549 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: me just jump in and ask you, because we've had 550 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: some folks weather and law enforcement around the streets say, well, listen, 551 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: it's not as much about the chemical nature of it, 552 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: but just it is so cheap and so powerful these 553 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: days that it's overwhelming people's brains. So is it one 554 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: or the other? Is it really both? Well, here's the thing. 555 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. The reason I said accompanied by and 556 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: not cause causes us is because there is no neuroscience 557 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: on this. Nobody understands really what's it work? At least 558 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: of all me. Okay, I don't want to be putting 559 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: myself out there. What I'm giving you is street reporting. Okay, 560 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm going I'm talking to people, you know, e er 561 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: docs in these hounds and drug counselors over here and 562 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: recovering addicts over here. Um, no one has actually studied 563 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: P two P meth the way it's made in Mexico 564 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: right now. There's no rat studies, no my studies, there's 565 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: no journal reports. I'm simply telling you that this is 566 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: the reporting I've done in these various areas and keep 567 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: on doing even though the books published. I'm I'm still 568 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: talking to people. I'm probably gonna talk with a person 569 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: there Albuquerque, New Mexico and later later today on this 570 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: very topic. But over and over and over, you just 571 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: hear this all the same, the same stories. People go 572 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: out of their minds, they're raving, they're incapable of living 573 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: with anybody, so very quickly they're homeless, and the place 574 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: they least want to be as a homeless shelter, because 575 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: in a homeless shelter, everybody seems to be a threat. 576 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're surrounded by people who are who 577 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: are almost like themselves, a little bit out of their mind, 578 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: and everyone's confined, and you've got to the rules, and 579 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: there's all this stuff that's so so along with that 580 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: comes this very you're um accompanied by all this method 581 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: foundom comes as very severe mental illness and then along 582 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: as well as a homelessness, and along with that then 583 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: comes the tent encountenance. Tents become perfect lodging. If you 584 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: are in the state of mind where you think the 585 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: entire world is a threat, the last thing you want 586 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: to do is be around other people. So a little 587 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: it's a little pod in which you can kind of 588 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: exist with what is stuck in your brain and all 589 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: the those are ideas that are coming through through through 590 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: through your brain. This is homelessness. Is A is A 591 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: is a. There are many kinds of homelessness. There are 592 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: many reasons why people end up homeless. A lot of them, 593 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, shredded safety net, homeless people who lose a 594 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: job and have surgery, can't find can't afford a house, 595 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: and the surgery that that kind of story is also 596 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: part of it. There's the sex register at homeless who 597 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: in a registered sex offender is only a few places 598 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: in his in his town or as county where you 599 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: can where you can live, and frequently they end up homeless. 600 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of reasons. However, my reporting 601 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: I believe has convinced me and shows that did a 602 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: major force behind those tent encampments and the homeless of 603 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: from the delirium that people are often suffering from and 604 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: all that is this method set them and has come 605 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: out of Mexico over the last eight ten eleven years 606 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: and in many parts of the country, certainly eight or 607 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: nine years, many and almost all the country. Um, it 608 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: is made with this P two. Why is it? What 609 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: are the neuroscientific reasons for it? I don't know that 610 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: hasn't been studied in the least. Do we have any 611 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: and I want to Yeah, I was gonna say, do 612 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: we have any idea whether some of the mental health 613 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: problems you're talking about? Uh, can they go away in 614 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: the brain heal once you discontinue the Matthew, Sir, These 615 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: people just damaged for life. I realized it's early days, 616 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: but it is it is early. But I would tell 617 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: you this. I spoke with a woman who is the 618 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: who is a director of a homeless shelter in the Midwest, 619 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: UM and she spent many years on skid road working 620 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: with almost folks, and she was graphic about this stuff. 621 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: She's saying. Used to be we could teach people how 622 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: to repair their lives. We're almost like life coaches. Basically, 623 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: you know how to get a driver's license, how do 624 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: life for a job? All these kinds of that. You 625 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: could teach people all these ways of recovering and getting 626 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: back into life. But the problem is the effect nowadays 627 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: of the meth is so devastating. This is the woman 628 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: of thirty years on the job. Okay, this is she 629 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: is a not born yesterday and the stuff. And she 630 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: was telling me that that we no longer use life 631 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: coaching because the people who we see who even though 632 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: they're sober, they're not on meth, they are not capable. 633 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: They their brains have been so devastated that they're not 634 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: capable of following these simple societal rules. As frequently their 635 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: memories shot too. They're just not able to function the 636 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: way you need to function in a in a in 637 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: a in a society, you know, so you have all 638 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: of this kind of um combined. So it's still not clear. 639 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: But the initial indications, and I asked your question, seemed 640 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: to be that there is in many people, uh, permanent, 641 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: at least semi permanent, at lasting, let's say, damage to 642 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: one's brain. And one woman I quote in the book 643 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: in the least of this my latest book, says that too. 644 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: She she you know, she was barking like a dog, 645 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: she said, and went out of her mind on the stuff. 646 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: She gets sober. She's been sober two years by the 647 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: time I spoke with her, And but she still knows 648 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: she's not the same as such a point in interview, 649 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: she says, I'm hoping they can study this stuff, because 650 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 1: you know, meditation helps, quiet time helps physical exercise health. 651 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: But there's she's still not the same. She knows this, 652 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: and she said, I just would love to know what 653 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: I can do, what more I can do to help 654 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: heel my brain. And and I think that's what's really 655 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: going on out there. And it's there's so many folks. 656 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: The longer they're left in presence of this myth, the 657 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: more damage it's going to do. And the other promise, 658 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: even if it doesn't create your homelessness, even it's not 659 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: the root cause of why you're on the street, the 660 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: fact that you are on the street, and it is 661 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: so prevalent and so cheap and many, so many areas 662 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: of this country that frequently people fall into using it 663 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: sometimes to remove themselves from the reality that they happen 664 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: to be living, and so they don't feel that reality, 665 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: and so it but that means it serves to keep 666 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: you homeless and make homelessness more durable, more endurable. Kind 667 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: of Well, it strikes me that all of us who 668 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: grew up in the sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties, maybe 669 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: we're part of yours, maybe not conservative, liberal or whatever, 670 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: we need to just to completely reapproach the question of 671 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: drug use and legalization and what's partying and what's not. 672 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean, all the facts have changed. I mean, other 673 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: than I'm thinking back to when you know, when I 674 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: was a kid or a you know, college student whatever. 675 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: If you overdid L s D, you could really screw 676 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: your mind. And ecstasy was just coming on the scene 677 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: when I was in college, and there were definitely some 678 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: people who did themselves serious damage. But I mean, whether 679 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: it's the much much more potent pot or what we've 680 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: been talking about is just that the equation, all the 681 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: factors in the equation have changed. That's that's absolutely verioustuet observation. 682 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: I think that that's actually the truth all the all 683 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: the myths that we used to scoff at, frankly, because 684 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: frankly a lot of more myth they were silly, you know, 685 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: um back in the thirties, fifties, seventies, whatever it was. 686 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: You know, I got some of this stuff when I 687 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: was in school too, and I knew it wasn't really 688 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: true what they were saying, you know, so I laughed 689 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: at And well, all those myths have become reality. You 690 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: can die from a line of cocaine. One hit of 691 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 1: myth can lead to you going out of your mind, uh, 692 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, by repotent pot can lead you to be 693 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: um uh you know, yeah, send you twenty r with 694 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: psychotic episode. Heroin does kill One hit of heroin does 695 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: kill you. You know, that is the reality of today. 696 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: And so the facts have changed, but frequently are um 697 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: our how shall I put it? Our thinking has not. Yeah, 698 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: there's so this idea that that you know, we shouldn't 699 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: arrest people for this stuff. Frequently about the only place 700 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: that people are safe. And I hate to put it 701 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: this way because it's it's it's a nuanced idea, but frequently, 702 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: but the only people are people are safe away from 703 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: this damaging, these damaging to trouble and cheap drugs is 704 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: in jail, you know, Sam, Just let me jump in 705 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: and point out. We read an email on the air 706 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: the other day of a guy who's turned his life 707 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: around after a fairly prolonged meth addiction, and it was 708 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: so interesting how he phrased one aspect of his journey. 709 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 1: He said that uh meth was essentially decriminalized right after 710 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: he got arrested, and he said, thank god I dodged 711 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: that bullet. It was only being incarcerated it that stopped 712 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: his use, and he's so grateful for it. And you 713 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: know that's not some sort of idiotic ham handed to 714 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: arrest everybody argument, but it's it's true. It just is 715 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,479 Speaker 1: it is. And I can tell you I've been doing 716 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,479 Speaker 1: this now nine years and the number of has heard 717 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: this so many times in long interviews and short and 718 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 1: new casual conversations, on and on and on and every 719 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,959 Speaker 1: Drug Council has heard it as well that the best 720 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: day of my life, the best thing ever happened to 721 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: me was that I was arrested, got off the streets. Um. 722 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: In fact, in Dreamland, my previous book, a guide almost 723 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: ordered me to quote him and I did. Uh in 724 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: in in New Mexico and Santa Fe saying, um, the 725 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: I want to thank the d E H for arresting me, 726 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: because I would be dead otherwise. Now he's doing very well. 727 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: He's that we're stolen contact on Facebook, and he's doing 728 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: very well. And but that happened because he was taken 729 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: off the street. Jail is not the way we do 730 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: jail today needs to be changed. That can I'm confessed. 731 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: I think I think there are um uh, they're in 732 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: fact in my latest book that there's chapters on this 733 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: one county in Kentucky that is experimenting with how to 734 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: do jail differently. Have a pod of recovery, of recovery 735 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: pod as part of the jail and G E D 736 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: classes and Criminals thinking classes and all that. Because jail 737 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: has largely been this anchor around our neck. If you 738 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: go in a criminal mentally ill or addicted, you're gonna 739 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: come out worse. You know, we need to approach this differently, 740 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 1: I believe, or at least a offer a different option 741 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: to folks in jail who want to follow it. And 742 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: and that's happening now in many counties, particularly in those 743 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: areas where the opioid epidemic was worse Kentucky, Ohio, places 744 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: like that. But um, even the fact of just getting 745 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: off the street if you if you buy the homeless 746 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: UM shelter administrators comment to me that the folks who 747 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: are out there on the street now that that that 748 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: they are using this stuff when they stopped, that their 749 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: brains are perhaps permanently at least long term devastated and 750 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: her words, um, then then more exposure to that stuff 751 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: is going to lead to further u devastation. Of course, 752 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: with frontinol risk almost every day basically every day, um 753 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: uh death. You know. So the idea that of decriminalizing 754 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: the stuff COVID was simply I've taken as saying COVID 755 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: is simply a year long, unplanned, completely obviously unplanned experiment, 756 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: and decriminalizing drugs on the street when those drugs on 757 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: the street our frontinl and math and so you see 758 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: the record overdose deaths. You see. My my opinion really 759 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: the real expansion of mental illness and homelessness. Uh, that's 760 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: driven I believe my reporting shows by by by this 761 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: method phetom and that's coming out of Mexico and its 762 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: unprecedented quantities. Wow. What a great point. So final thought, 763 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: you've scared the crap out of us, in appropriately so. 764 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: But the tital of your book, the Least of Us, 765 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: true tales of America and hope in the time of 766 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: fentanyl and meth. Where's the hope coming from? Well, this 767 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: is always the problem I get into with interviews like that. 768 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: I love talking about all parts of this book. This 769 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: part of the book is really most of the book. Um, 770 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: it's it's more than half the book is taken up 771 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: with stories, and so it really I hate to put 772 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: to say that, but it really warrants a full conversation 773 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: of another hour. And I'm happy to do that at 774 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: another time if you wish. But but the the I 775 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: really did view this as as a as an opportunity, 776 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: this whole thing, and and and and in part because 777 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: I thought that one of the main reasons for the 778 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: opioid epidemic and all the problems we faced um uh 779 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: and in terms of trucks, has a lot to do 780 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: with our turning our back or ignoring or shredding. Yeah, 781 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: the what bonded us? What bonds? You know, if you 782 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: think about why we humans survived and prospered as a 783 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: species for whatever millions of years, what is the thing 784 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: that held it held made that possible? And I would 785 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: argue to you that it is our feeling that not 786 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: of community that we need. It's not a nice thing, 787 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: it's an essential, but it's what kept us alive, allowed 788 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: us to survive. And and we have decided in America, 789 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: I would say, I don't know about other countries. Maybe 790 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: it's also true, but I'm just talking about the country 791 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: right now. In America, we have decided in the last 792 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: forty years that that's not necessary. You know, we don't 793 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: really need to be around other people, or we can 794 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: just be around certain kinds of people. We don't need 795 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: to you know, um, the community banks that can be 796 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 1: swallowed up and buy big banks and who cares. You know, 797 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: there's we could go on for like literally an hour 798 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: talking about all the ways in which American our culture 799 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 1: we have shredded, destroyed, ignored, unfunded, whatever things that brought 800 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: us together that were really the bulwarks of the sense 801 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: against the stuff. And now we we find ourselves so 802 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 1: vulnerable because why my my feeling is because we're so isolated, 803 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: and we we got away from the idea that a 804 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: community is built by small acts, gaily act, not worrying 805 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: if you're saving the world, not worrying if you're if 806 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: you're some noble person out there doing everything and getting 807 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: all the credit, and you're just And so what I 808 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: did was understanding believing that this was the case. I 809 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: decided I was going to fill my book, actually half 810 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: of the book with the stories of Americans involved as 811 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,959 Speaker 1: many stories of quiet active the quiet work, daily work 812 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: of Americans involved in community repair that I could find, 813 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily working only with addiction. Now the idea that 814 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: we need to be outside among each other, overlooking all 815 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: these reasons why we're supposed to hate this other person, 816 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: race or or or political persuasion or all these kind 817 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: of clapp and when you get down to the bottom, 818 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 1: local grassroots level, you find a lot of that just 819 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: does not matter at all. And it's very exhilarating to 820 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: do that. So, for example, just give you one example 821 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,240 Speaker 1: there's many in the book because this was this became 822 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: my main focus, not the not the dope. The dope. 823 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: I I understood it, I understood noting all. I understood nothing. 824 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: And I told those stories without blinking. But the real 825 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,800 Speaker 1: stories that exhilarated me, that made me feel like, damn, 826 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: this is work doing, you know, and and this is 827 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: the heart and soul of what I'm trying to learn. 828 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: There are stories of this small kind of stories of 829 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,800 Speaker 1: community repair. One of them had to do with a 830 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 1: guy named Bird Mike mckissic and the small Southern South Muns, 831 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 1: Indiana South Monthly neighborhood surrounded by what used to be 832 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: enormous transmission plants and transmission Capital of America Munthsly Monthly 833 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,240 Speaker 1: once was well, as those plants, you know, are really 834 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,479 Speaker 1: on the verge of dying out. They've been dwindling for years, 835 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: and how they're about to die out. The city fathers say, 836 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: you know what, we can't afford to keep open these 837 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: community centers that we have three of him around, and 838 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: one of them was right across the street from Bird's house. 839 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: He had worked there for a while. So the city 840 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: fathers he went on the budget, you know, it is 841 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: not possible anymore. And so they closed the centers, and 842 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: they think that's the end of it, except except that 843 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,879 Speaker 1: Bird keeps the key. Right, the bird keeps the key, 844 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: doesn't tell the city lead there's anything about this. He 845 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: just becomes a community center unto himself, as his neighborhood 846 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: suffers from this real economic stress. And then of course 847 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,839 Speaker 1: the opio thing on top of that. I mean, all 848 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: of this is happening at the same time. And he 849 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 1: keeps the key, and he goes over and he opens 850 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,760 Speaker 1: the door for the kids when I want to play basketball. 851 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: He gives him a place to hang out amid all this, 852 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, devastation all around them, the community center without 853 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,359 Speaker 1: any money and pains that Clay continues to function as 854 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 1: a community center. And of course he he he keeps 855 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: the he keeps the he mows the lawn outside, he 856 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 1: keeps the toilets fixed, all this kind of stuff. He 857 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: allows his community, his his neighborhood to whether this powerful, 858 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: these powerful storms, and come out kind of the the 859 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: the other, the other side. So I tell three chapters 860 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 1: in the books about Munsey, Indiana and Bird Makissic who 861 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: later who dies. He's a strange man, no doubt. He's 862 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: a man who literally, like psychologically, had some issues and 863 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: and literally never could leave his neighborhood. He was afraid 864 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 1: to leave his neighborhood, but he was. He was like 865 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: the mayor of the South Mundsy neighborhood, and he kept 866 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: it a lot. It's those kinds of stories that I 867 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: believe I wanted to tell, not because they're a prescription. 868 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what every county in America needs to 869 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: do about this stuff. I just think that it's very 870 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: important to understand that we have gotten away from this stuff. 871 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 1: That is our life saver, it's our it's our life 872 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: rep and that is the feeling of repairing community, making 873 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: that strong again. Boy, I'm starting to get a sense 874 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 1: of why you juxtapose those two major things in your book. 875 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: But it's it's interesting to me that you did in 876 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: that way. And by the way, these issues are stuff 877 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: we talk about all the time, substituting the empty calories 878 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 1: of say, online engagement with actual human contact and if 879 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: a Facebook friend is anything like a friend, etcetera center. Yeah, 880 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: exactly what an idea, you know, I'll face to face contact, 881 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: My god, it seems like radical in the in the 882 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: context of America, of America today. Don't you think I 883 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: mean to me? But to me this is and and 884 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: and the idea is to get to cross this idea. 885 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,879 Speaker 1: We are only as strong as the most vulnerable. We're 886 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: only as strong. We learned during the pandemic, all of 887 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: a sudden, our lives relied on that beat packing worker 888 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: in Kansas, we who, all of a sudden we discover 889 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,879 Speaker 1: is actually an essential worker, every bit as essentials as 890 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 1: some paramedic, you know, because so is the food supply 891 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: dies we do you know, what about the grocery store clerk? 892 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,319 Speaker 1: All of these things and and along the way, just 893 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: to explain the title. You know, I'm not Christian, but 894 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: I was reading the Bible during writing this, and I 895 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: read the Gospel of mass You, and of course that's 896 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: a very powerful gospel, particularly in certain parts of it. 897 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 1: Um several parts, but one of them, of course, one 898 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: of the most powerful, is one of Jesus says to 899 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: his disciples that would you do for the least of 900 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: my brother? And you do for me? And I And 901 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,359 Speaker 1: that hit me. It was something I'd read years ago, 902 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: but I came back to it for some reason. And 903 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: when in the middle of it, I realized kind of 904 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: why I had done that, and that that that seemed 905 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 1: to me also this perfect messing of the of the 906 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: ideas I was trying to get across. What is the 907 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: defense against not only not only the sinister drug craft 908 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 1: that's coming up, but all these other uh addictive substances 909 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,320 Speaker 1: and stuff that we are constantly bombarded with sugar and 910 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: fast food and social media and you know, Twitter and 911 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: Facebook and all the rest, and and cable TV news 912 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: and and pornography and gambling and video daancity go on 913 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: and not take the alcohol? What is our best defense? 914 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: These are all the same kind of thing. They're all 915 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of groups whose job is to week whatever 916 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: they're selling so that we will need, we will feel 917 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: like we have to have it. Send a lot a 918 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: drug cartel, McDonald's Facebook, you know, uh scuser's gambling has. 919 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:12,959 Speaker 1: You know that it's kind of all in the same 920 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: uh continuum. I believe in so to me, I think 921 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: Jesus understood that the important idea that had allowed people 922 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: to survive up to his time and have allowed us 923 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: to survive as a species ever since, and that is 924 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 1: that we have to understand how important it is to 925 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,240 Speaker 1: be with each other. So in some sense that community idea, 926 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: he understood that. You may not have understood the neuroscience 927 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,800 Speaker 1: of it, but he's certainly understood the idea there. And 928 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: so at some point these these solutions maybe even become 929 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,320 Speaker 1: fairly low tech, you know, like how about just getting 930 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,320 Speaker 1: out of the house, have a barbecue with your neighbors, 931 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: get to know that person always seems like such a commudgeon. 932 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 1: Maybe actually get to know maybe he's actually a nice guy, 933 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,799 Speaker 1: you know, not worrying about whether that person has a 934 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 1: Trump or Biden sign in s front yard anymore. You know, 935 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: once you get beyond that, get beyond that established let's 936 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: face to face relationships, so we we what we've lost 937 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 1: so much of in this country. I think, yeah, you know, 938 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,839 Speaker 1: at the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon myself, I'm 939 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 1: I'm concerned that though there's an enormous amount of awareness 940 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: of the things you're talking about, um that number one, 941 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,440 Speaker 1: the pace of change makes it very difficult to come 942 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: up with cures as quickly as the disease has happened. 943 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: And number two, the greatest minds of our our generations 944 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,799 Speaker 1: are devoted to the very endeavors you're talking about, which 945 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 1: are you know, utterly heartless and soul less in in 946 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: their effects. But no, I agree with you completely. I'm troubled. 947 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny there are there are no chimpanzees 948 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: sitting around discussing how chimpanzees will clearly be their own doom, 949 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,040 Speaker 1: whereas human kind of think has been aware of that 950 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,480 Speaker 1: since you know, when people started tossing ideas around the campfire. 951 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: It's not clear whether it's going to be a virus 952 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 1: or a nuclear weapon, or or drug or Facebook. But 953 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: by god, I've often said that Sam that Homo sapiens 954 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 1: are my least favorite species. It's mosquitoes are second to 955 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 1: the bottom, But Homo sapiens, I don't know what to 956 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,919 Speaker 1: do with us. You know what, I don't particularly no either. 957 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't claim to have any answers here. I'm just 958 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,520 Speaker 1: saying the stories I tried to write. We're saying this 959 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,240 Speaker 1: is what people are doing. Maybe that attitude is something 960 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: you might want to think about. Well, that's the most 961 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: of the journalists can really do. I think I love 962 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 1: the idea of getting together again and chatting about that 963 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: theme of the book, the connectedness and things that we 964 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: can do on small and medium scales. Uh, and not 965 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: just get on Twitter and announced that anybody who disagrees 966 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,800 Speaker 1: with me as a piece of crap um or worse. 967 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,719 Speaker 1: But you know, what can we do in our own communities? 968 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a number of the great philosophers, 969 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: religious figures who would point out that start with your 970 00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,959 Speaker 1: own soul, then perhaps your family, your household, then maybe 971 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,919 Speaker 1: your block. Why don't you deal with that and then 972 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,759 Speaker 1: start crying the problems of the globe and not worry 973 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: that what you're doing is not in some noble, virtuous 974 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 1: way of saving the world. And how it be enough 975 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,480 Speaker 1: that you're doing it down your block, your church, your 976 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 1: pt A, your school, your kids school. That kind of thing, 977 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: to me so often gets in the way, like I'm 978 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 1: not Oh, there's all these other problems you ask, So 979 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,080 Speaker 1: what just do like work with your own garden, so 980 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: to speak. Yeah, yeah, save the one starship. It's a 981 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,399 Speaker 1: metaphor that's both cliche and incredibly powerful. The starfish. Rather, 982 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: we're not stay saving starships, were not Captain Kirk in 983 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 1: the scenario star I think you know what I'm talking about. Uh, Sam, Hey, 984 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: it's been great to talk, and we will will absolutely 985 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: do it again. Extra large