WEBVTT - Forget DOGE. Musk Is Suddenly All In on AI 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:08.559 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:09.520 we have a new star. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:14.640 A star is born elan' up on Mars Juthan Kennemy. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:15.440 He is the. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.560 Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.040 Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:21.800 I feel for the guy. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.279 I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:26.920 But those two percent. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.800 That are nasty, they are our pay in full, Fols. 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.280 We were meant for great things in the United States 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.640 of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:37.400 I'm very disappointed in Elon. 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:38.640 I've helped Elon a lot. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.640 Welcome to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcasts about Elon Musk. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.520 It's Tuesday, July fifteenth. I'm Max Chafkin in for David Popadopolis. 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.400 Later this episode, we have the first of a series 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.560 of interviews that we're going to run this summer with 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:01.920 some of our favorite reporters who cover Elon who do 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.760 not work at Bloomberg. These are people who wrote stories 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.199 that we read, you know, over the last six months 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.520 or so and thought, oh, I wish I had written that. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.080 And for the first one, we've got an interview that 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.120 Kurt Wagner did with New York Times reporter Teddy Schliffer. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.840 Teddy covers money in politics, billionaires in politics. He was 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.280 really all over this kind of moment in December and 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:27.120 January when Trump and Musk were coming together, and the 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.319 conversation is great. But before we get to that, Kurt 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:32.000 is here with me. Now we're gonna have a quick 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.759 conversation about some of the news that happened this week. Kurt, 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:35.320 how you doing. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.040 Hey, I'm good, Max, thanks for having me. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.800 And Elon inkstalwart Dana Hall is here as well. Dana, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:42.320 how are you? 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:43.160 I'm great? 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.280 All right. So the big news, as far as I 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:50.559 can tell since we last potted is XAI. A bunch 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.480 of stuff has happened with XAI. This is Elon Musk's 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.280 you know AI chatbox company. It also owns x And 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.280 I'm just gonna run through some of the hits. First 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.560 of all, Elon did a demo for something called Grock four. 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.080 This is the latest rock. He said it was going 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:07.600 to be so smart. 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.600 I would expect Grok to yeah, literally discover new technologies 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.760 that are actually useful. No later than next year and 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.359 maybe end of this year, and it might discover new 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:17.640 physics next year. 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.040 Like I guess, like better than relativity or strength theory 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.120 or whatever. Also the same Grock seems to have gone 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:30.080 a little Nazi. And also in addition to physics, we 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.080 have this other sort of seemingly unrelated product that Elon 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.240 Musk also debuted, also having to do with Groc. I'm 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:38.800 just gonna play a little clip for both of you. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.120 Golden Light was apping to this lively sue at sunrise. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.280 Golden Light hitting the enclosures, parrots chattering like they're gossiping, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.800 and a lazy tiger stretching in the morning. I'm rocking 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.799 my black dress partytail's bouncing as I pull you towards. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:54.760 I think that's enough. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.240 I feel like we're going to get a call from 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.079 HR like any second now, Like what's going on here? 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.080 It's like, Kurt, what is going on here? 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:05.760 Is that the companion? 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:07.400 This is the companion, Dana? 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.960 Yeah, so yeah, Elon did tease this, you know, Grock companion. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.360 You just heard the companion's voice. It's an anime, I 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.120 suppose or cartoon woman in a you know, revealing black dress. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.760 And I think the title or like the name of 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:27.640 the product sort of says it all like this is 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:33.320 meant to be an emotional companion to people, and to 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.760 your point, Max, like slightly different direction, right, Like on 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.720 the one hand, it's like Xai worth hundreds of billions 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.440 of dollars and going to change the world of physics, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.960 and on the other hand, like building a sort of 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.480 an emotional support girlfriend for people online. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:49.920 I guess. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.760 And so I don't know how popular this will be 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.760 or how much of a core use case this will be, 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.840 but it clearly taps into the wants and desires of 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.080 a certain audience on and Elon seems quite excited about it. 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.400 He was tweeting about it when was this just yesterday? 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.560 Lots of tweets and responses to tweets of this character 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:14.920 in various sexualized situations. Also, I guess there's also like 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.159 an animal one that it's like a fox that's mean 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.119 to you. I'm not totally sure what that's about, Danna, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.599 Do you think this is like a serious product or 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.560 is Elon just cracking dirty jokes? I mean, I feel 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.200 like I have to say. He also spent basically half 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.320 of yesterday as we're recording this on Tuesday, tweeting about 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.960 this girlfriend. The other half was tweeting about the newly 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:42.200 expanded area that the Robotaxi travels. This is Tesla's you 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.480 know AI product, and that is shaped like a penis, 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.680 or it's more than a penis now I think about, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.680 but in any case, it is a explicit shape. He 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.159 seemed to be very amused with himself. There is this 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:54.880 just a bit what is happening? 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:56.680 I mean, I think the way to think about Elon 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.400 is that fundamentally he has like the emotional already have 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.560 like a thirteen year old boy, And I say, this 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.960 is like the parent of a son. So you know, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.640 no disrespect to men out there, but like he's juvenile 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:13.080 in his emotions, in his like view of the world. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.440 I mean, he's an incredible industrialist, and he's you know, 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.240 hyper aggressive, and he's a financial engineer and all these 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.160 things and all the great things about him that people 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:26.039 already know, but like, fundamentally, like from a psychological perspective, 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.200 like he's just very juvenile. And so yeah, he does 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.839 these things to amuse himself. And then you look at 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.039 the photographs of the coders at XAI that are on 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.080 LinkedIn or wherever, and it's like young dudes grinding all 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.599 night like to ship this thing, and I'm sure that 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.359 they're very proud of it. And how popular it will be, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.440 I don't know, but like I mean, I think there 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.400 is this like loneliness factor in his life and in 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.000 like the culture as a whole that this could fill. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.800 And a lot of times, I mean optimists, the robot 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.320 that Tesla is making, they talk about that as being 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.280 a companion, like options going to be your face, your kids, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.640 It's gonna be your friend, and so this whole kind 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.360 of merging of machine and human and filling this void 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.200 that I guess a lot of people have in their lives. 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.600 I mean, I find it very sad personally, but I 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.839 do think that like online culture is a wash with 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.880 lonely people falling in love with chat, GBT and whatever. 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:19.599 Like I mean, I think that there is like a 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:20.280 niche for this. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.039 For sure, we'll get to how good a business I 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.039 mean overall Xai is. But here I'm glad you brought 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.560 this up because in certain ways, Kurt, I feel like 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.240 Dana is right, like this is more realistic as a 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.200 business than the new physics thing. Like I have more 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:40.719 confidence in this as a path to like potential profits 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.159 than the idea that like we're going to put rock 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.839 to work solving humanity's biggest problems. It seems like it 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.120 could actually be like a thing for people who are 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.440 lonely or kind of yeah, you know, anime kinks or whatever. 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:52.800 Yeah. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.240 I think it's the kind of thing that, you know, 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.960 to your point, could actually sell subscriptions, right like, if 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.359 this becomes some type of a subscription product for X 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.880 or built into the X premium thing, that makes actually 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.120 a lot of sense to me. There's a cliche. I'm 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:09.960 gonna get it wrong, but it's something about, like, you know, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.400 the best way to build a business online is to 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.080 base it around pornography, right like that porn is the 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:19.480 real underbelly of this entire Internet that we all use, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.480 and this I think sort of plays into an element 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.280 of that. And so I don't think it's like crazy 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.840 as a business. Where it stands out to me is 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.200 that to Dana's point, like Elon Is has a long 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:32.560 history of telling. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.640 Off color jokes, silly jokes, sexual jokes. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.360 I remember when he took over Twitter, he was, you know, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.559 day one, he was like, advertisers, we are a safe 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.480 space for you. In day two is like, here are 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.840 four masturbation jokes that I just thought of, and it 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.920 just like the rub does not always make sense, Like 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.560 it is too much in conflict, Like he tries to 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.920 be very serious on one hand and then he comes 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.160 out and does things that are very unseerious on the other. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.120 And to me, that is the issue, you know, more 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.160 so than like whether this is a good or bad business, 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.160 you know whatever, it's just the what it reflects I 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.280 think about him and sort of what he's trying to build. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.520 In some cases, I think, can you know, push people 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.400 away or let the real serious things he's doing sort 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.800 of be undermined by the fact that he's very unserious 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:19.480 in a lot of ways. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.920 Part of what makes us funny is this, like you know, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:28.240 sexy anime talking like an ASMR thing is like wildly expensive. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.160 They are just like burning huge amounts of electricity, you know, 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.920 huge amounts of like GPU capacity to make these things work. 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.000 And we've talked about this on the podcast a bunch 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.680 of times. But like Xai is bleeding money. There was 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.960 a couple weeks back we talked about the report they're 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.199 bleeding maybe a billion dollars per month. There has been 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.040 this fundraising going on, I think we have to understand 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.959 this launch event and the wild claims about new physics 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.800 in that context. And to that point, we got a 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.800 port in the Wall Street Journal, which Bloomberg has also 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.760 confirmed that SpaceX is going to be one of the 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.000 investors in this massive equity round. SpaceX is going to 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:15.400 put two billion dollars into XAI. Dana, You're always talking 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.400 about how Elon Musk's sort of empire. They have the 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.320 separate business, but they really operate as one business. What 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.880 is the rationale here? Like why does a rocket company 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.319 want to invest in the AI girlfriend company? 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.840 Yeah, well, I think you know, as Ed Ludlow and 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.320 I reported, like Elon really wants to have this kind 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.559 of like vertically integrated AI infrastructure stack. And you can 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:42.600 imagine that groc or some other part of XAI could 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:47.160 be the back end customer service for Starlink customers. So 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.439 say you buy like a Starlink satellite dish, and you're 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.000 in your RV and like the internet speed is low, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.000 and you want to complain to somebody like maybe a 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.280 groc chetbot like helps you troubleshoot your problem. So like 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.400 I can see ways that it could also, I mean, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.240 GROC has this incredible computing power, but is it gonna 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.400 need to rely on space based satellites for some of that? 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.120 So by investing, you know SpaceX will have dibbs. I mean, 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.160 at some point XAI is going to have to grow 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.600 a real board. I would imagine, like they don't really 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.840 have a board right now. It's Elon and Jared Burchell 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:21.400 and maybe one other person. 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.840 But why in the world would you need to own 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.640 two billion dollars of SpaceX equity? Like I understand what 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.880 you're saying, Like you could imagine I think you kind 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.800 of have to squint to be frank, but you could 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.480 imagine some synergies between SpaceX and XAI. But again, does 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.000 that explain why the investment needs to happen beyond just 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.840 the fact that the CEO is the same guy. 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.440 No, not at all. I mean that's the thing. It's 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.880 like Elon always like Robs Peter to save Paul right 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.680 from all of his other companies. And we saw this 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.920 in Solar City back in twenty sixteen, where like Solar 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:55.480 City was struggling, so Tesla acquired them, and everyone was like, oh, 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.679 Tesla is acquiring a solar company. And it's like no, 0:10:57.760 --> 0:10:59.880 you guys like Elon is the chair of the board 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.480 Solar City, like this is a bailout and so I 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.680 mean the cost of going to Mars is huge, So 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.720 I think two billion is like not, that's like a 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.360 significant I think it's SpaceX's largest outside investment, Like I 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.240 don't think they've ever invested in another entity quite like this. 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.600 But then on the on the other hand, the other 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.400 thing that's happening is that Tesla is going to invest 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.720 in XAI, and Musk said he's going to have to 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.319 bring it to a shareholder vote, but you know that'll 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.000 probably be like five billion dollars. That's what he's been 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:28.880 floating for over. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.880 A year now. Yeah, he brought that up on Twitter, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.439 the idea five billion. I think it was last year, right, 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.640 he did a Twitter poll. And separately, kind of to 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.920 your point about synergy or apparent s energy or attempted synergy, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.000 you can now use rock inside of your Tesla car whatever, 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.520 So I guess you could talk to your AI girlfriend 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.400 or ask it about physics or whatever. I mean, Kurt, 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.920 are we am I wrong to look at these reports 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.040 about you know, Elon Musk trying to move money from 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.120 his more successful companies to his startup, as well as 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.400 reports from Bloomberg and other about difficulty closing debt rounds 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.880 about you know what really feels like a scramble to 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.120 bring money and say, how is this not like another bailout? 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.400 Like you have a massive money losing company and then 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.000 you have a guy taking money from another company he controls, 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:16.800 you know, and putting in there. Is that totally off 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.120 base or do you think there's an element of that here? 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.240 It feels like the world's largest conflict of interest right? 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.920 It is exactly as you describe Max. There is the 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.320 one guy who runs all these things. He's taking money 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.840 from pocket A into pocket B. And the problem is, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.080 I don't see that outside of like retail Tesla investors. 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.920 It doesn't feel like there's really anybody willing to come 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.160 and say, hey, should this happen to push back on Elon. 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.560 Nobody wants to be cut out from the business of 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.360 Elon Musk and so as a result, no one is 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.320 willing to say, is this the best use of two 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.880 billion dollars or five billion dollars? Should you be propping 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.360 up your AI business with monies from you know, the 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.400 private space exploration company who wants to raise their hand 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.240 and complain about that and then be cut out from 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.679 the next big thing that Elon does because invest in 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.320 Elon Musk historically has been a very good business for 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.440 venture capitalists who can get in early enough. And I 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.480 just don't see people willing to call him out on 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.559 this because as big as two billion is, it's also 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.280 not huge, right, Like, it's big, but it's not so 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.160 big that you're willing to burn your relationship with Elon 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:30.960 over it. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.520 And so I think that's what we're seeing here. But 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:33.760 it is a conflict of interest. 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.440 I don't think there's any way to frame it otherwise, 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.959 like could there be things that work about an investment, Absolutely, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:41.720 but that doesn't mean that it's not a conflict. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.680 Yeah. I feel like the best case for this is 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.960 just that the shareholders of all these companies feel like 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.840 Elon Musk is the most important element of all of 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.520 these companies and he wants to do it, and so 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.680 they're going to say, sure, go ahead. You know what 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:57.760 else are we going to say? 0:13:58.000 --> 0:13:59.120 I think that's absolutely right. 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.840 I think if you boil it to this guy has 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.920 all the say and the power, even if he technically 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.160 doesn't have the voting control, he has the actual power 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.280 and sway and you know, to stand in front of 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.520 that freight train is not something that people have become 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:15.320 willing to do yet. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.800 Okay, Dana, we're gonna let you go and get to 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.480 Kurt's interview. Thanks for coming. Hope to see you next week. 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:23.320 Sasian. 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.000 All right, Kurt, stick around. We're gonna hear your interview 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.360 with Teddy Schleifer. I'm sure we'll get to talk all 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.200 about whether or not Grock is a Nazi, or whether 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.120 Grock could be your girlfriend, or whether Grock could invent 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.080 some new physics in the waste come. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:47.280 Sounds great, looking forward to it. Hey, Teddy, welcome to 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:48.000 Elon Inc. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.080 Thanks for having me. Yes, absolutely, Uh. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.040 You have covered Elon in a lot of ways over 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.360 the last six months, but even before that. But I 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.920 wanted to bring us back because the story I was 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.280 very jealous of at the time and I think still 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.000 sort of stands the test of time is one that 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.440 you wrote way back in December of last year. The 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:14.280 title is the Silicon Valley Billionaires Steering Trump's Transition, And 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.800 there's been so much news between now and then six 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.680 months ago. Feels like, you know, five years ago. But 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.720 I think what I loved about this story is that 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.400 you took the Trump Musk relationship from the campaign trail 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.880 and sort of introduced the fact that this thing was 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.640 going to last into the administration, that it wasn't just 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.280 going to be Elon, but it was also going to 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.920 be like all of the people who orbit Elon going 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:42.800 into that administration as well. I think it was like 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.880 a perfect table setter for ultimately what we ended up experiencing, 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.480 you know, for those first three, four or five months 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.120 of the administration. So walk me through, like, how does 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.920 a story like this come together? You're on the byline 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.520 with some you know, powerhouse journalists at the Times, Maggie 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.600 Haberman and Jonathan's One. How does this, you know materialize 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:04.800 for you? Like how did you start to kind of 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.920 get a sense that Elon was going to be much 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.280 larger than just a campaign donor to President Trump. 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.800 Sure, So, as of mid December, it was public or 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.200 had been well reported, that Elon Musk was at mar 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.440 A Lago since election Day a month prior. What was 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.600 not well known was the fact that Musk had kind 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.760 of brought in ten to twenty of his homies to 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.680 basically quasi run the transition alongside him. You know, Musk 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.040 technically didn't have any role in the presidential transition. It 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.240 was run by Howard Lutnick and Linda McMahon, two people 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.560 that Trump has known for a long time, and they 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.920 both kind of divided up the transition into certain areas 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.960 responsibility dating back to I think August. Then Trump's elected 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.640 in November, Elon flies to mar A Lago for the 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.800 election night party and then never leaves. And so what 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.400 happened in November and December is there's kind of the 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.800 official transition process being run by the people who are 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.960 ahead of the transition, and then these other people. And 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.000 the reason it was an interesting story to us is 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.760 because the other people were never announced. You know, it 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:18.199 was never announced that Sean McGuire or Mark Injuriesin or 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:23.639 kind of Musk's personal family office aides were running this 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.760 alongside them. And the way we heard about it should 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.919 be rather obvious is that people were going in for 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.199 these meetings at mar A Lago to be you know, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.320 secretary of state or deputy secretary of state or whatever, 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.480 and were you know, they weren't like surprised to walk 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.040 into the room and see people didn't expect but they 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.200 kind of were like they were showing up and were 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.680 surprised by the extent to which they had to deal 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.400 with these kind of unofficial you know, DOGE or quasi 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:56.520 doge representatives who had no public billing and sometimes no 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:00.240 public profile. Like I even learned names of peace people 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.919 that I had never heard of doing this story, because 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.720 suddenly they were, you know, interviewing the next head of 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.320 the Pentagon, even though you google them and you have 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.800 no idea who they were. Yeah, and you start with 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.160 this awesome scene of Trump sort of sitting around with 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:17.800 a lot of his advisors and I'm going to quote 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.560 from the story, but he says, you know, Larry Elson 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.280 is there, the co founder of Oracle, chairman of Oracle, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.200 Elon Musk is there, and he says, I brought the 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.600 two richest people in the world today, What did you bring? 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.600 I love that because it speaks to sort of Trump 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.280 what he values a little bit right. He values that wealth, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.560 that power, but he also loves to flaunt that he 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.480 knows these guys and that he can get them to 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.320 show up on his behalf. How did you view the 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.800 relationship between the richest man in the world Elon Musk, 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.160 and the most powerful man in the world, Donald Trump, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.400 Because there are two alphas who I think a lot 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.720 of people thought this will never even get off the ground, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.159 and yet it it obviously has. You know, it's had 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:01.919 a lot of speed bumps, which we can get to. 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.399 But I think it worked better for a lot longer 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:05.640 than a lot of people would have thought. 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:07.960 Sure, I mean for a long time it was like 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.280 a contrariant opinion to think that this was going to 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.040 last at all. The betting markets were so weighted toward 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.320 the idea that this was going to collapse imminently. Yeah, 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:21.399 I mean, Trump clearly enjoyed having Elon around until it 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:22.879 all blew up. I do not think that there was 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.919 some secret hatred from Trump toward Musk, you know, from 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.160 Trump advisors I talked to, Like, the sense I got 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.720 was that he found musks jokes a little weird, and 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.439 you know, they're obviously very different kind of sensibilities and 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:36.760 different industries. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:38.080 But Trump liked. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:42.520 Having the adelation and yes manness of Musk around him. 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:44.879 Elon certainly got away with a lot of things that 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.600 would never be tolerated from any other advisor. Like around 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.639 the same time of this story, we had, you know, 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.840 Elon Musk publicly supporting candidates for like Treasury secretary. In 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.000 all way, that would never be true if like Susie 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.240 Wiles just decided to tweet her opinions about who should be, 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.320 you know, getting these jobs. You know, Trump liked the 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.159 richness of kind of the guy around him, and he 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.080 liked the wealth of Larry Ellison, and he kind of 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.440 is impressed with himself to some extent that he can 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.640 get these people to spend time at his club and 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:16.640 suck up to him. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:17.280