1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: A star is born elan' up on Mars Juthan Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 3: He is the. 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 4: Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 3: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 3: I feel for the guy. 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 2: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: But those two percent. 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 3: That are nasty, they are our pay in full, Fols. 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: We were meant for great things in the United States 12 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 13 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 3: I'm very disappointed in Elon. 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 4: I've helped Elon a lot. 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: Welcome to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcasts about Elon Musk. 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, July fifteenth. I'm Max Chafkin in for David Popadopolis. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: Later this episode, we have the first of a series 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: of interviews that we're going to run this summer with 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: some of our favorite reporters who cover Elon who do 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: not work at Bloomberg. These are people who wrote stories 21 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 2: that we read, you know, over the last six months 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: or so and thought, oh, I wish I had written that. 23 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: And for the first one, we've got an interview that 24 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: Kurt Wagner did with New York Times reporter Teddy Schliffer. 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: Teddy covers money in politics, billionaires in politics. He was 26 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: really all over this kind of moment in December and 27 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: January when Trump and Musk were coming together, and the 28 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: conversation is great. But before we get to that, Kurt 29 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: is here with me. Now we're gonna have a quick 30 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 2: conversation about some of the news that happened this week. Kurt, 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: how you doing. 32 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 3: Hey, I'm good, Max, thanks for having me. 33 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: And Elon inkstalwart Dana Hall is here as well. Dana, 34 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: how are you? 35 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 4: I'm great? 36 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: All right. So the big news, as far as I 37 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 2: can tell since we last potted is XAI. A bunch 38 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: of stuff has happened with XAI. This is Elon Musk's 39 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: you know AI chatbox company. It also owns x And 40 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna run through some of the hits. First 41 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: of all, Elon did a demo for something called Grock four. 42 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: This is the latest rock. He said it was going 43 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: to be so smart. 44 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: I would expect Grok to yeah, literally discover new technologies 45 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: that are actually useful. No later than next year and 46 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 3: maybe end of this year, and it might discover new 47 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 3: physics next year. 48 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: Like I guess, like better than relativity or strength theory 49 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: or whatever. Also the same Grock seems to have gone 50 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: a little Nazi. And also in addition to physics, we 51 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: have this other sort of seemingly unrelated product that Elon 52 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: Musk also debuted, also having to do with Groc. I'm 53 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: just gonna play a little clip for both of you. 54 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 3: Golden Light was apping to this lively sue at sunrise. 55 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: Golden Light hitting the enclosures, parrots chattering like they're gossiping, 56 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: and a lazy tiger stretching in the morning. I'm rocking 57 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 3: my black dress partytail's bouncing as I pull you towards. 58 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: I think that's enough. 59 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: I feel like we're going to get a call from 60 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: HR like any second now, Like what's going on here? 61 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: It's like, Kurt, what is going on here? 62 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 4: Is that the companion? 63 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: This is the companion, Dana? 64 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, Elon did tease this, you know, Grock companion. 65 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: You just heard the companion's voice. It's an anime, I 66 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: suppose or cartoon woman in a you know, revealing black dress. 67 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: And I think the title or like the name of 68 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: the product sort of says it all like this is 69 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: meant to be an emotional companion to people, and to 70 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: your point, Max, like slightly different direction, right, Like on 71 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: the one hand, it's like Xai worth hundreds of billions 72 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: of dollars and going to change the world of physics, 73 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: and on the other hand, like building a sort of 74 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: an emotional support girlfriend for people online. 75 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: I guess. 76 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: And so I don't know how popular this will be 77 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: or how much of a core use case this will be, 78 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: but it clearly taps into the wants and desires of 79 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: a certain audience on and Elon seems quite excited about it. 80 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: He was tweeting about it when was this just yesterday? 81 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: Lots of tweets and responses to tweets of this character 82 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: in various sexualized situations. Also, I guess there's also like 83 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 2: an animal one that it's like a fox that's mean 84 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 2: to you. I'm not totally sure what that's about, Danna, 85 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: Do you think this is like a serious product or 86 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: is Elon just cracking dirty jokes? I mean, I feel 87 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: like I have to say. He also spent basically half 88 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: of yesterday as we're recording this on Tuesday, tweeting about 89 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: this girlfriend. The other half was tweeting about the newly 90 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: expanded area that the Robotaxi travels. This is Tesla's you 91 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: know AI product, and that is shaped like a penis, 92 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: or it's more than a penis now I think about, 93 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: but in any case, it is a explicit shape. He 94 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: seemed to be very amused with himself. There is this 95 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: just a bit what is happening? 96 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 4: I mean, I think the way to think about Elon 97 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 4: is that fundamentally he has like the emotional already have 98 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 4: like a thirteen year old boy, And I say, this 99 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 4: is like the parent of a son. So you know, 100 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 4: no disrespect to men out there, but like he's juvenile 101 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 4: in his emotions, in his like view of the world. 102 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: I mean, he's an incredible industrialist, and he's you know, 103 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 4: hyper aggressive, and he's a financial engineer and all these 104 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 4: things and all the great things about him that people 105 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 4: already know, but like, fundamentally, like from a psychological perspective, 106 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: like he's just very juvenile. And so yeah, he does 107 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 4: these things to amuse himself. And then you look at 108 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 4: the photographs of the coders at XAI that are on 109 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 4: LinkedIn or wherever, and it's like young dudes grinding all 110 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 4: night like to ship this thing, and I'm sure that 111 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 4: they're very proud of it. And how popular it will be, 112 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 4: I don't know, but like I mean, I think there 113 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 4: is this like loneliness factor in his life and in 114 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 4: like the culture as a whole that this could fill. 115 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 4: And a lot of times, I mean optimists, the robot 116 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 4: that Tesla is making, they talk about that as being 117 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 4: a companion, like options going to be your face, your kids, 118 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 4: It's gonna be your friend, and so this whole kind 119 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 4: of merging of machine and human and filling this void 120 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 4: that I guess a lot of people have in their lives. 121 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 4: I mean, I find it very sad personally, but I 122 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 4: do think that like online culture is a wash with 123 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: lonely people falling in love with chat, GBT and whatever. 124 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 4: Like I mean, I think that there is like a 125 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 4: niche for this. 126 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 2: For sure, we'll get to how good a business I 127 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: mean overall Xai is. But here I'm glad you brought 128 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: this up because in certain ways, Kurt, I feel like 129 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: Dana is right, like this is more realistic as a 130 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: business than the new physics thing. Like I have more 131 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: confidence in this as a path to like potential profits 132 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: than the idea that like we're going to put rock 133 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: to work solving humanity's biggest problems. It seems like it 134 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: could actually be like a thing for people who are 135 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: lonely or kind of yeah, you know, anime kinks or whatever. 136 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 137 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: I think it's the kind of thing that, you know, 138 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: to your point, could actually sell subscriptions, right like, if 139 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: this becomes some type of a subscription product for X 140 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: or built into the X premium thing, that makes actually 141 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me. There's a cliche. I'm 142 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: gonna get it wrong, but it's something about, like, you know, 143 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: the best way to build a business online is to 144 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: base it around pornography, right like that porn is the 145 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: real underbelly of this entire Internet that we all use, 146 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: and this I think sort of plays into an element 147 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: of that. And so I don't think it's like crazy 148 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: as a business. Where it stands out to me is 149 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: that to Dana's point, like Elon Is has a long 150 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: history of telling. 151 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: Off color jokes, silly jokes, sexual jokes. 152 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: I remember when he took over Twitter, he was, you know, 153 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,559 Speaker 1: day one, he was like, advertisers, we are a safe 154 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: space for you. In day two is like, here are 155 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: four masturbation jokes that I just thought of, and it 156 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: just like the rub does not always make sense, Like 157 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: it is too much in conflict, Like he tries to 158 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: be very serious on one hand and then he comes 159 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: out and does things that are very unseerious on the other. 160 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: And to me, that is the issue, you know, more 161 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: so than like whether this is a good or bad business, 162 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: you know whatever, it's just the what it reflects I 163 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: think about him and sort of what he's trying to build. 164 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: In some cases, I think, can you know, push people 165 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: away or let the real serious things he's doing sort 166 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: of be undermined by the fact that he's very unserious 167 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. 168 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: Part of what makes us funny is this, like you know, 169 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: sexy anime talking like an ASMR thing is like wildly expensive. 170 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: They are just like burning huge amounts of electricity, you know, 171 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: huge amounts of like GPU capacity to make these things work. 172 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: And we've talked about this on the podcast a bunch 173 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 2: of times. But like Xai is bleeding money. There was 174 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: a couple weeks back we talked about the report they're 175 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 2: bleeding maybe a billion dollars per month. There has been 176 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: this fundraising going on, I think we have to understand 177 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: this launch event and the wild claims about new physics 178 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: in that context. And to that point, we got a 179 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: port in the Wall Street Journal, which Bloomberg has also 180 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: confirmed that SpaceX is going to be one of the 181 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: investors in this massive equity round. SpaceX is going to 182 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: put two billion dollars into XAI. Dana, You're always talking 183 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: about how Elon Musk's sort of empire. They have the 184 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: separate business, but they really operate as one business. What 185 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: is the rationale here? Like why does a rocket company 186 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 2: want to invest in the AI girlfriend company? 187 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think you know, as Ed Ludlow and 188 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 4: I reported, like Elon really wants to have this kind 189 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 4: of like vertically integrated AI infrastructure stack. And you can 190 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 4: imagine that groc or some other part of XAI could 191 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 4: be the back end customer service for Starlink customers. So 192 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 4: say you buy like a Starlink satellite dish, and you're 193 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 4: in your RV and like the internet speed is low, 194 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 4: and you want to complain to somebody like maybe a 195 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 4: groc chetbot like helps you troubleshoot your problem. So like 196 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 4: I can see ways that it could also, I mean, 197 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 4: GROC has this incredible computing power, but is it gonna 198 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: need to rely on space based satellites for some of that? 199 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 4: So by investing, you know SpaceX will have dibbs. I mean, 200 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 4: at some point XAI is going to have to grow 201 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 4: a real board. I would imagine, like they don't really 202 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 4: have a board right now. It's Elon and Jared Burchell 203 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: and maybe one other person. 204 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: But why in the world would you need to own 205 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: two billion dollars of SpaceX equity? Like I understand what 206 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: you're saying, Like you could imagine I think you kind 207 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: of have to squint to be frank, but you could 208 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: imagine some synergies between SpaceX and XAI. But again, does 209 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: that explain why the investment needs to happen beyond just 210 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: the fact that the CEO is the same guy. 211 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 4: No, not at all. I mean that's the thing. It's 212 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: like Elon always like Robs Peter to save Paul right 213 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 4: from all of his other companies. And we saw this 214 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 4: in Solar City back in twenty sixteen, where like Solar 215 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 4: City was struggling, so Tesla acquired them, and everyone was like, oh, 216 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 4: Tesla is acquiring a solar company. And it's like no, 217 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 4: you guys like Elon is the chair of the board 218 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 4: Solar City, like this is a bailout and so I 219 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 4: mean the cost of going to Mars is huge, So 220 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 4: I think two billion is like not, that's like a 221 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 4: significant I think it's SpaceX's largest outside investment, Like I 222 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: don't think they've ever invested in another entity quite like this. 223 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 4: But then on the on the other hand, the other 224 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 4: thing that's happening is that Tesla is going to invest 225 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 4: in XAI, and Musk said he's going to have to 226 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 4: bring it to a shareholder vote, but you know that'll 227 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: probably be like five billion dollars. That's what he's been 228 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 4: floating for over. 229 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: A year now. Yeah, he brought that up on Twitter, 230 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 2: the idea five billion. I think it was last year, right, 231 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: he did a Twitter poll. And separately, kind of to 232 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: your point about synergy or apparent s energy or attempted synergy, 233 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: you can now use rock inside of your Tesla car whatever, 234 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: So I guess you could talk to your AI girlfriend 235 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: or ask it about physics or whatever. I mean, Kurt, 236 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: are we am I wrong to look at these reports 237 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: about you know, Elon Musk trying to move money from 238 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 2: his more successful companies to his startup, as well as 239 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: reports from Bloomberg and other about difficulty closing debt rounds 240 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: about you know what really feels like a scramble to 241 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: bring money and say, how is this not like another bailout? 242 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: Like you have a massive money losing company and then 243 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: you have a guy taking money from another company he controls, 244 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: you know, and putting in there. Is that totally off 245 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: base or do you think there's an element of that here? 246 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: It feels like the world's largest conflict of interest right? 247 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: It is exactly as you describe Max. There is the 248 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: one guy who runs all these things. He's taking money 249 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: from pocket A into pocket B. And the problem is, 250 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't see that outside of like retail Tesla investors. 251 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like there's really anybody willing to come 252 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: and say, hey, should this happen to push back on Elon. 253 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be cut out from the business of 254 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: Elon Musk and so as a result, no one is 255 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: willing to say, is this the best use of two 256 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars or five billion dollars? Should you be propping 257 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: up your AI business with monies from you know, the 258 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: private space exploration company who wants to raise their hand 259 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: and complain about that and then be cut out from 260 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: the next big thing that Elon does because invest in 261 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: Elon Musk historically has been a very good business for 262 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: venture capitalists who can get in early enough. And I 263 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: just don't see people willing to call him out on 264 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: this because as big as two billion is, it's also 265 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: not huge, right, Like, it's big, but it's not so 266 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: big that you're willing to burn your relationship with Elon 267 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: over it. 268 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: And so I think that's what we're seeing here. But 269 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: it is a conflict of interest. 270 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any way to frame it otherwise, 271 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: like could there be things that work about an investment, Absolutely, 272 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that it's not a conflict. 273 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like the best case for this is 274 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: just that the shareholders of all these companies feel like 275 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: Elon Musk is the most important element of all of 276 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: these companies and he wants to do it, and so 277 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 2: they're going to say, sure, go ahead. You know what 278 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: else are we going to say? 279 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely right. 280 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: I think if you boil it to this guy has 281 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: all the say and the power, even if he technically 282 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: doesn't have the voting control, he has the actual power 283 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: and sway and you know, to stand in front of 284 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: that freight train is not something that people have become 285 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: willing to do yet. 286 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Dana, we're gonna let you go and get to 287 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: Kurt's interview. Thanks for coming. Hope to see you next week. 288 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: Sasian. 289 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: All right, Kurt, stick around. We're gonna hear your interview 290 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: with Teddy Schleifer. I'm sure we'll get to talk all 291 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: about whether or not Grock is a Nazi, or whether 292 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: Grock could be your girlfriend, or whether Grock could invent 293 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: some new physics in the waste come. 294 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: Sounds great, looking forward to it. Hey, Teddy, welcome to 295 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: Elon Inc. 296 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Yes, absolutely, Uh. 297 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: You have covered Elon in a lot of ways over 298 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: the last six months, but even before that. But I 299 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: wanted to bring us back because the story I was 300 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: very jealous of at the time and I think still 301 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: sort of stands the test of time is one that 302 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: you wrote way back in December of last year. The 303 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: title is the Silicon Valley Billionaires Steering Trump's Transition, And 304 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: there's been so much news between now and then six 305 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: months ago. Feels like, you know, five years ago. But 306 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: I think what I loved about this story is that 307 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: you took the Trump Musk relationship from the campaign trail 308 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: and sort of introduced the fact that this thing was 309 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: going to last into the administration, that it wasn't just 310 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: going to be Elon, but it was also going to 311 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: be like all of the people who orbit Elon going 312 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: into that administration as well. I think it was like 313 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: a perfect table setter for ultimately what we ended up experiencing, 314 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, for those first three, four or five months 315 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: of the administration. So walk me through, like, how does 316 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: a story like this come together? You're on the byline 317 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: with some you know, powerhouse journalists at the Times, Maggie 318 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: Haberman and Jonathan's One. How does this, you know materialize 319 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: for you? Like how did you start to kind of 320 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: get a sense that Elon was going to be much 321 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: larger than just a campaign donor to President Trump. 322 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 5: Sure, So, as of mid December, it was public or 323 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 5: had been well reported, that Elon Musk was at mar 324 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 5: A Lago since election Day a month prior. What was 325 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 5: not well known was the fact that Musk had kind 326 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 5: of brought in ten to twenty of his homies to 327 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 5: basically quasi run the transition alongside him. You know, Musk 328 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 5: technically didn't have any role in the presidential transition. It 329 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 5: was run by Howard Lutnick and Linda McMahon, two people 330 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 5: that Trump has known for a long time, and they 331 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 5: both kind of divided up the transition into certain areas 332 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 5: responsibility dating back to I think August. Then Trump's elected 333 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 5: in November, Elon flies to mar A Lago for the 334 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 5: election night party and then never leaves. And so what 335 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 5: happened in November and December is there's kind of the 336 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 5: official transition process being run by the people who are 337 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: ahead of the transition, and then these other people. And 338 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 5: the reason it was an interesting story to us is 339 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 5: because the other people were never announced. You know, it 340 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 5: was never announced that Sean McGuire or Mark Injuriesin or 341 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 5: kind of Musk's personal family office aides were running this 342 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 5: alongside them. And the way we heard about it should 343 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 5: be rather obvious is that people were going in for 344 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 5: these meetings at mar A Lago to be you know, 345 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 5: secretary of state or deputy secretary of state or whatever, 346 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 5: and were you know, they weren't like surprised to walk 347 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: into the room and see people didn't expect but they 348 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 5: kind of were like they were showing up and were 349 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 5: surprised by the extent to which they had to deal 350 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 5: with these kind of unofficial you know, DOGE or quasi 351 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 5: doge representatives who had no public billing and sometimes no 352 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 5: public profile. Like I even learned names of peace people 353 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 5: that I had never heard of doing this story, because 354 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 5: suddenly they were, you know, interviewing the next head of 355 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 5: the Pentagon, even though you google them and you have 356 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: no idea who they were. Yeah, and you start with 357 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 5: this awesome scene of Trump sort of sitting around with 358 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 5: a lot of his advisors and I'm going to quote 359 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 5: from the story, but he says, you know, Larry Elson 360 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 5: is there, the co founder of Oracle, chairman of Oracle, 361 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 5: Elon Musk is there, and he says, I brought the 362 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 5: two richest people in the world today, What did you bring? 363 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: I love that because it speaks to sort of Trump 364 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: what he values a little bit right. He values that wealth, 365 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: that power, but he also loves to flaunt that he 366 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: knows these guys and that he can get them to 367 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: show up on his behalf. How did you view the 368 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: relationship between the richest man in the world Elon Musk, 369 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: and the most powerful man in the world, Donald Trump, 370 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: Because there are two alphas who I think a lot 371 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: of people thought this will never even get off the ground, 372 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: and yet it it obviously has. You know, it's had 373 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: a lot of speed bumps, which we can get to. 374 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: But I think it worked better for a lot longer 375 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: than a lot of people would have thought. 376 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 5: Sure, I mean for a long time it was like 377 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 5: a contrariant opinion to think that this was going to 378 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 5: last at all. The betting markets were so weighted toward 379 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 5: the idea that this was going to collapse imminently. Yeah, 380 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 5: I mean, Trump clearly enjoyed having Elon around until it 381 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 5: all blew up. I do not think that there was 382 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 5: some secret hatred from Trump toward Musk, you know, from 383 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 5: Trump advisors I talked to, Like, the sense I got 384 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 5: was that he found musks jokes a little weird, and 385 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 5: you know, they're obviously very different kind of sensibilities and 386 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 5: different industries. 387 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: But Trump liked. 388 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 5: Having the adelation and yes manness of Musk around him. 389 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 5: Elon certainly got away with a lot of things that 390 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 5: would never be tolerated from any other advisor. Like around 391 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 5: the same time of this story, we had, you know, 392 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 5: Elon Musk publicly supporting candidates for like Treasury secretary. In 393 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 5: all way, that would never be true if like Susie 394 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 5: Wiles just decided to tweet her opinions about who should be, 395 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 5: you know, getting these jobs. You know, Trump liked the 396 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 5: richness of kind of the guy around him, and he 397 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 5: liked the wealth of Larry Ellison, and he kind of 398 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 5: is impressed with himself to some extent that he can 399 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 5: get these people to spend time at his club and 400 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 5: suck up to him. 401 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 402 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: I like the story again because it sets the table 403 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: for what was to come. At what point did you realize, Okay, 404 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: Elon is not just sort of bankrolling this guy's campaign. 405 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: He's actually going to have a meaningful role in this administration. 406 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: I imagine at this point in early December, as you're 407 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: writing the story that has become obvious to you. Were 408 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: you surprised by that? Did you already sort of know 409 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: that going into this story, or was this story the 410 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: moment where you're like, oh my god, like this is 411 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: taking on perhaps another level that people didn't quite appreciate. 412 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 3: No, I mean I was surprised for sure. 413 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 5: You know, I remember Maggie and I did a story 414 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 5: on election Day that Musk was going to be attending 415 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 5: the election party at mar A Lago. I remember us 416 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 5: being kind of on the fence privately about like whether 417 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 5: or not this is even a story. You know, it's like, well, like, 418 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 5: you know, who cares if he's showing up at the party. 419 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 5: But as I mentioned earlier, he never left after the party, 420 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 5: or I think he left one very briefly, right he 421 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 5: basically that was the beginning of this role, of this 422 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 5: kind of next chapter in the story where he went 423 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 5: from just being you know, a big mega donor to actually, 424 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 5: you know, almost running parts of the federal government on 425 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 5: Trump's behalf. So that was surprising even I think it 426 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 5: was even surprising in December. I think, honestly, it was 427 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 5: even surprising until after December, Like I mean the fact 428 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 5: that we knew that Musk was going to be leading DOGE. 429 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 5: But a lot of the people mentioned in the story 430 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 5: have played roles in the federal government even after January twentieth. 431 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 5: I feel like, honestly, I'm still surprised even as we're 432 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 5: recording this that you know, these people are sticking around 433 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 5: to some extent, and you have David Sachs and Joe 434 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 5: Gebbia and all these kind of Elon friends who are 435 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 5: in these very senior roles. It was not foreseen that 436 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 5: this would happen. You know the fact that Elon Musk 437 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 5: ended up taking You know, he probably want admit this, 438 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 5: but he basically took months off of his own companies, 439 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 5: basically full time to be leading this kind of nascent 440 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 5: effort inside the public sector. 441 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 3: That was not foreseen. I don't think he was even 442 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 3: foreseen in December. 443 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you have a unique perspective because you 444 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: your job is to cover billionaires, right. I cover Elon 445 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: sort of through the lens often of x or was 446 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: known as Twitter. But you cover people like him at 447 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: all different industries and walks of life and things. I 448 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: get the sense from my experience he is different than 449 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: anybody else I've ever covered. How does he sort of 450 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: compare to you? Like, is a lot of the stuff 451 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: he does common among billionaires and maybe we just don't 452 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: always see that? Or is he truly this sort of 453 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: like unicorn guy to write about and cover. 454 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 455 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 5: I mean, to some extent, he is doing everything that 456 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 5: everyone else is doing just more of it. Right, he 457 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 5: exemplified and exaggerates the trends we see of other people. 458 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 5: You know, Kurt, You've written about this a little bit, 459 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 5: like to the extent to which he is become like 460 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 5: a person of envy for other tech billionaires in the 461 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 5: months since, right where you have people like Zuckerberg or 462 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 5: Sam Altman, even enemies of Musk who like have seen 463 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 5: what he's been able to do in the public sector 464 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 5: and with his public profile and thought to themselves like, damn, 465 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 5: I should do the same thing, you know. 466 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: I mean, so I think he's always been one of one. 467 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 5: Though I'm amazed even now, and it's not like I've 468 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 5: covered him for twenty years. I've covered him for like five, 469 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 5: But I'm amazed still by like the gravitational pull that 470 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 5: he has where you have all these like friends and 471 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 5: investors and you know, people who are just in his 472 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 5: social circle who like then this is not a chart 473 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 5: of way to put it, but like seem to have 474 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 5: their entire life dedicated to like serving him, Like that 475 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 5: would never be true of like any other like portfolio 476 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 5: company founder. For some of these vcs right where their 477 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 5: entire energy and like's per seems to be revolving around him, and. 478 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: To some extense, it's easy to make fun of it, 479 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: but I guess it works, right, like where where you. 480 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 5: Suddenly get access to Xai because you are like helping 481 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 5: Elong with his superpack, and then Xai ends up really valuable, 482 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 5: and you know, these things kind of create this like gravity, 483 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 5: and there's a there's a circularness to revolving around Musk 484 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 5: that I do think is very unique where maybe people 485 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 5: say think of the same things about like Peter Thiel 486 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 5: to some extent, but like I do feel like it's 487 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 5: it's unique to Musk that every single person who even 488 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 5: who want who knows him like sees profit and and 489 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 5: access and power out of just continuing to be around him, 490 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 5: which then itself creates that like that power and money 491 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 5: is been seeking in the first place. 492 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: Well, the same names keep showing up everywhere he goes, right, 493 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: you see, like Jared Birchell and Steve Davis and you know, 494 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: certainly his lawyer Alex Spiro, and like some of that 495 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: is just like if you're his lawyer, yes you're gonna 496 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, you're going to show up where he gets 497 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: into legal hot water, which appears to be everywhere with him. 498 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: But you do see to your point, like the orbit 499 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: moves with him. It's not as if these people you know, 500 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: stay put and he parachutes in. It's like it all 501 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: moves as a as a team. I'm wondering what he's 502 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: like to report on. He sort of famously doesn't have 503 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: PR people, or at least not a lot, you know, 504 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: it doesn't have a PR machine in the way that 505 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of other billionaires do. I have found that 506 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: people closest to him, you know, incredibly loyal, therefore hard 507 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: to get to. They can be aggressive or to push 508 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: back on stories like just what's what's he like to 509 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: cover compared to other billionaires in that regard? Is he 510 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: harder to get access to his world because he's so big? 511 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 3: Is it easier? Like what's your experience been? Sure? 512 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 5: I mean, I've found his circle to be definitely loyal, 513 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 5: and I haven't. Maybe I'm being too soft. I haven't 514 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 5: had any like great public blow ups with any of them. 515 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 5: Behind the scenes. I try to take him at like 516 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 5: face value, I think, maybe more than other reporters do. 517 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 5: I feel I'm helped in part by not having baggage, 518 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 5: Like I feel like this is kind of my approach 519 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 5: with some tech billionaires. I just feel like I'm just 520 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 5: trying to write about them in the current context, which 521 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 5: I think helps. The one thing I think is unique 522 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 5: about Musk, and I know you've thought about this too, 523 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 5: is like behind the scenes, there's not a lot there 524 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 5: that's not public. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think 525 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 5: there are things that Musk keeps secret tactically that like, 526 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 5: you know, people should report and scoop and go for it, 527 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 5: but like there's not there's some different texture that he 528 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 5: says privately. But I feel like if I were on 529 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 5: some of these group chats, you know, like I must 530 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 5: talks about like the budget bill in Congress, like he's 531 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 5: saying the same things privately that he's saying publicly. I 532 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 5: have yet to find like a super interesting storyline about 533 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 5: what Elon is saying privately. 534 00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 3: Behind the scenes. 535 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, other than you know, all the children that we 536 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: maybe don't know, the unknown children. 537 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, but he kind of talks about that publicly too. 538 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, I mean, you know, he doesn't 539 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 5: talk about it in detail, but like the fact that 540 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 5: sure like he discloses so much voluntarily. 541 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, he really does. 542 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 5: And like replies to random people in a way that 543 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 5: neuters some of the journalism about him. 544 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is a very competitive beat obviously as well. 545 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: I want to move forward a little bit to the 546 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: Trump Musk relationship in general. It has been rocky. They 547 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: obviously have already had a relatively big public spat in 548 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: I guess it was the beginning of June. What do 549 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,239 Speaker 1: you make of that, Like, is this truly the you 550 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: know that they're they're never going to work together again? 551 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: This is they're sort of. 552 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: Gone their separate ways, or do you envision that at 553 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: some point maybe these two are going to be rekindled, Like, 554 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: I guess, I'm just curious what you think of that 555 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: relationship today compared to when you wrote this story six 556 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: months ago. 557 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, as I said, like to some extent 558 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 5: surprising it didn't happen earlier, and people were kept expecting 559 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 5: this to happen. You know, I think the reasons it 560 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 5: happened are pretty interesting. I mean, it is, you know, 561 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 5: from talking to people around him, like, Musk definitely has 562 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 5: legitimate or deeply felt beliefs about the bill, the budget 563 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 5: bill that you know has caused such a rupture between 564 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 5: him and Trump. But the real story is that he 565 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 5: feels kind of embarrassed by a number of things that 566 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 5: concluded his tenure, including you know, the ouster of a 567 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 5: Musk friend to be the head of NASA, Jared Isaacman. 568 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 5: Like he feels what he feels about the budget bill, 569 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 5: but the reason he's being so public about it has 570 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 5: to do with a lot of other things. And that's 571 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 5: the quote unquote real story. I also concede that, like, 572 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 5: I think there's still things we're trying to learn right 573 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 5: now about the real story, but the fact that it 574 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 5: blew up was less interesting to me and sort of 575 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 5: like the why and also the how, Like I think 576 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 5: like the fact that like, you know, during that day 577 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 5: when he was tweeting about Jeffrey Epstein, like he clearly 578 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 5: is just like vibing. I have not detected any serious 579 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 5: moves that Musk is making behind the scenes. 580 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: To actually form a third party. 581 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 5: I have not detected any serious moves he's making to 582 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 5: launch primary challengers against Republicans, as he's threatening to do, 583 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 5: at least as of this recording. So he is a 584 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 5: guy with a phone r like we all are, or 585 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 5: you know, we're all just guys with phones, and he 586 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 5: is tapping out messages and sending it to his two 587 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 5: hundred twenty million followers, and then abouta bingbata bang gets 588 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 5: on the internet. Right, I mean that's sort of sort 589 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 5: of as simple as that. I think's what's unique about 590 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 5: him is he has so much power, and that also 591 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 5: he seems to have no guardrails, so he can do 592 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 5: whatever he wants and he is. 593 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's been his strategy and style for 594 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: years now, right, So it's not really surprising. I think 595 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: it is perhaps unsettling to some people because it's happening 596 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: at such a stage in a scale now. When he 597 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: did this stuff, when he would just sort of, to 598 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: your point, be a guy with a phone at Tesla 599 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: six seven, eight years ago, it was like, Okay, he's 600 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: harming himself in one company. Now, the sort of implications 601 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: of guy with phone, I think are just at a 602 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: larger scale than perhaps. 603 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 3: They've ever been. Yeah, for sure. Do you have any 604 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 3: sense that Elon himself might never get into politics or 605 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: is there no value in him being the politician when 606 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: he can simply sort of puppetmaster from the private sector. 607 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most interesting 608 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: things I've reported in the last couple of months, which 609 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 5: we just stuck in the middle of a story and 610 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 5: never really highlighted until now, was like the legacy of 611 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 5: the Wisconsin race and sort of shaping Musk psyche. So, 612 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 5: you know, as people may remember, in April, Musk you know, 613 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 5: spent about twenty five to thirty million dollars on this 614 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 5: Supreme Court race in the state of Wisconsin. Elon seemed 615 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 5: to go out of his way to make himself the 616 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 5: public face of that campaign. You know, he went did 617 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 5: a big rally the night before, starring himself. You know, 618 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 5: Trump advisors stayed away from the race. Trump did not 619 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 5: go to Wisconsin. The guy loses, and Musk basically you know, 620 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 5: tug his tail or, you know, and never speaks of 621 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 5: the race ever again. But in private conversations, Elon has 622 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 5: indicated that he knows that he sort of made a 623 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 5: mistake making himself the public figure of that campaign, or 624 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 5: at least that's the takeaway of people who have talked 625 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 5: to him. And so, yes, I think that race kind 626 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 5: of shaped his view of his own powers, you know. 627 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 5: And I do not think Elon Musk will actually I 628 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 5: render politics himself, in part because he seems more like 629 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 5: self aware of his divisiveness. Famous last words on that, probably, 630 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 5: but I do not get the sense that he will 631 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 5: ever do anything more serious. And you know, I certainly, 632 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 5: at least as of this summer. I'm wondering what he 633 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 5: has in plans for the next couple of years, because 634 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 5: it's such a topsy turvy, like if you just listen 635 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 5: to what he says publicly, like he contradicts himself all 636 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 5: the time, Like at the time of this recording, you know, 637 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 5: a month ago, he said he's gonna send a lot 638 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 5: less money in politics, and then like suddenly he's saying 639 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 5: a couple weeks later, quote like I'm in a primary 640 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 5: every Republican member of Congress, you know. Like, see, he 641 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 5: can't take anything you're saying too seriously? 642 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: Right, last prediction here, if you're comfortable, we'll say, you know, 643 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: a year from when you wrote this story. I think 644 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: it was December sixth of last year. So let's go 645 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: December sixth of twenty twenty five, fast forward six months 646 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: or so from now. 647 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: Are we going to see Musk involved in politics still? 648 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: Is he going to be completely back into spacexxai tesla 649 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: or is he still going to be doing that? You know, 650 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: as he said when he was going to leave, I'll 651 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: be there, you know, two days a week or two 652 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: three days a week, whatever he said. Is there any 653 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: world in which we're still talking about him as a 654 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: political figure in six months, or are we back to 655 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: Musk the innovator? 656 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 5: I'll predict that he is not that involved at all. 657 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 5: I think he will ultimately not be a big part 658 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 5: of the twenty twenty six minut terms. He might support 659 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 5: you know, Thomas Massy or someone like that, who you know, uh, 660 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 5: the one House Republican or two House Republicans that have 661 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 5: opposed the budget bill. I do not think he will 662 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 5: spend a significant amount of time on Doe's related effort. 663 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 5: I don't even know if Doge is giving it an 664 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 5: even really exist. I mean, it's already sort of been 665 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 5: somewhat more in battled since Musk left. I could see, 666 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 5: you know, Musk getting involved in the twenty twenty eight 667 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 5: presidential campaign. It's going to be an open Republican primary. 668 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 5: You know, Musk feels like he swung the election for Trump, 669 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 5: even though that claim remains entirely unverified. Even though the 670 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 5: myth has taken hold that like Musk won Trump Pennsylvania, 671 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 5: even though no one's ever system and systematically assessed that question. 672 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 3: But I could see like. 673 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 5: Him feeling compelled to get involved in the presidential race 674 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 5: because maybe he can kind of recreate the magic. But 675 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 5: I'll predict that ultimately he will be not that involved 676 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 5: in public and political life, though he does appear extraordinarily 677 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 5: sensitive to this perception. I find pretty interesting current like 678 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 5: he's always like now that he's withdrawing from doge and 679 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 5: and political giving, like he wants us to know a 680 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 5: little bit too much. 681 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're prepared to hold this prediction above your 682 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: head for the next six months and you know, constantly 683 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: bring it up to let you know how he did. 684 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 3: So. I predicted on a Puck podcast. 685 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 5: In mid twenty twenty four that Elon Musk would not 686 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 5: get involved the election. 687 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: Okay, well you have a great track record, then we'll 688 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: hold that against you, Teddy. We really value your journalism 689 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: in your reporting, and thank you for coming on to 690 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: make our of our listener smarter. 691 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: So thank you, you bet. 692 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by 693 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: Anna Masarakus, Blake Maple's Handles engineering, and Dave Percell. Fact checks. 694 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson. The Elanning theme is 695 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Saguiera. Sage 696 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 2: Bauman is a head of Bloomberg Podcast. Big thanks to 697 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: our supporters Joel Webber and Brad Stone. I'm Max Chafkin. 698 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 699 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 2: it'll help other listeners find it us and we'll see 700 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: you next week 701 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: Mhm.