1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: On August twenty fifth, nineteen ninety eight, Clarence Jones was 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: caring for his infant son, Colin. According to Clarence, he 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: had fed Colin a bottle, laid him down for a nap, 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: and later discovered him sputtering formula from his mouth. Clarence 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: rushed him to Sinai Hospital. Colin was in respiratory distress 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: with an erratic heartbeat, and doctors concluded that the hemorrhages 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that were discovered in the coverings of Colin's brain and retina, 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: coupled with no external injuries, could only mean that the 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: nine week old infant was the victim of violence shaking. 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: While Clarence denied the allegations, Colin succumbed to his complication 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: six days later, on August thirty first. At trial, medical 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: experts testified that retinal hemorrhaging defined child abuse and that 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: the bleeding in Colin's retinas were the most severe they 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: had ever seen. These same experts confidently ruled out any 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: other potential causes of Colin's death, placing the blame squarely 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: on Clarence Jones. 17 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: But this is wrongful conviction. 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm going to start this 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: episode with a question, what would be the worst thing 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: that you could imagine happening to you? Now, if you're 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: a parent, and I am, it would probably be the 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: loss of a child. There's nothing worse than anybody can imagine, 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: except there is what if you lost a child and 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: then we're wrongfully accused of causing the death of your 25 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: own child, and since the thirty years in prison for 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: a crime that never even happened, Well, today we're covering 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: the extraordinary saga of the man himself, Clarence Jones, the 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: third who's with us right now. Clarence, welcome to the show. 29 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, thanks for having me. 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: You're very welcome. And joining him today is his civil 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: attorney who has joined his continued fight for justice, Lauren 32 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: kellaher welcome, Thanks, Jason. So this case revolves around shaking 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: baby syndrome, which is really, to me, one of the 34 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: most sickening aspects of junk science, which leads to some 35 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: of the most awful miscarriages of justice in our entire 36 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: criminal legal system. Claris, have you ever heard of shaking 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: baby syndrome before this awful, awful day when your child 38 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital. 39 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: I had never heard of no such thing. In fact, 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: when he was saying that, I had to look it 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: up and find out actually what was the talking about. 42 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: Then that day that the detectives had showed up to 43 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: my door, then I said, Oh, they going to charge 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: me with a crime, that's what they're trying to do. 45 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 4: To be honest, before I worked on this case, I 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: was not particularly familiar with the concept of shaking baby syndrome, 47 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 4: although in nineteen ninety eight, my understanding is that there 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 4: was quite a hysteria about shake and baby syndrome, and 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: there was this idea that is exhausted and burnt out 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: as they were parents of young babies were getting so 51 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: frustrated to the point of injuring them in these severe ways. 52 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 4: But as the scientific understanding of SBS has progressed, there 53 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 4: are all of these natural disease processes that occur very 54 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 4: tragically in babies like Colin that fully explain the presentation 55 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 4: with what folks in the SPS community will be familiar 56 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 4: with as the triad, which is intercranial bleeding, brain smelling, 57 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 4: and retinal hemorrhaging. 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: And you know, back when this case occurred in nineteen 59 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: ninety eight. The only way people really looked at it 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: was that violence shaking could be the only cause of 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: this triad of findings. But they never tested it. They 62 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: just assumed it. And I'm really glad we're here to 63 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: talk about it. We're going to have later on the show. 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: Kate Judson one of my personal heroes. She's the executive 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: director of the Set for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, and 66 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: she'll dive deeper into this. So, Clarence, before your life 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: got turned upside down by people who should have known better, 68 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 1: What was it like. Did you grow up in Baltimore? 69 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: Well, I did grow up in Baltimore, but I moved 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 3: out into the county area. 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: And how did you meet your wife Jennifer? Tell us 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: a little about when things were better. 73 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: I had met Jennifer doing one of the building that 74 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: she had lived in. I was a security officer at 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: the time, and basically that's how her and I got 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: to know one another. And I've always been into security work, 77 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: law enforcement work. In fact, I had my application trying 78 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: to become a Baltimore County Police office at the time 79 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 3: as it occurred. 80 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: Wow, So if this could happen to you and you 81 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: were working in and around law enforcement, a law abiding citizen. 82 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: Then would you agree that this could happen to anybody. 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: Yes, this could happen to anybody. You know the way 84 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 3: it came upon me. I didn't know that they was 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 3: trying to arrest me for something like this when I 86 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 3: was a kid. Loving father, very supportive. 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: So okay, So it seemed like he had everything going 88 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: in a very positive direction. You're married to the love 89 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: of your life, Jennifer, And was this your first child? 90 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 3: No, I have three other children. This one my son, Colin. 91 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: He was born with a condition called normalcytopenia PAPA or ITTP, 92 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: and just like his mother, Jennifer, she would could bleed easily. 93 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 94 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: ITP is a blood disorder in which your immune system 95 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: attacks to platelets, the red blood cells that are responsible 96 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: for clotting. So the result is easy bruising, as well 97 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: as potential internal bleeding and even intracranial hemorrhaging. One of 98 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: the three findings, if not the main finding associated with 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: sbs ITP, can be acute, clearing up spontaneously in six 100 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: months or less, or chronic like your wife, Jennifers. Now, 101 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: Colin had only lived to be just about ten weeks old. 102 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: It was such a short medical history, it's not clear 103 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: which form he had. And this wasn't the only cause 104 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: for concern. Upon Colin's birth, he had a pretty dramatic delivery, 105 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: to say the least. 106 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: Right, he had aspirated some maconium which his newborn stool. 107 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: He was in respiratory distress, all these things and he 108 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 3: had to stay and say you behind it. Then we 109 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: picked them Colin up and he had another episode that occurred, 110 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 3: which was July of ninety eight, which he had bleeding 111 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: in the lungs. What they characterized and diagnosed was pneumonia 112 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 3: at the time. 113 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 4: The thing about the diagnosis of pneumonia is pneumonia was 114 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: essentially the best guess about what was going on with Colin. 115 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 4: During his July hospitalization, they gave him a pretty heavy 116 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: duty course of antibiotics that they would have expected to 117 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 4: clear up the pneumonia if it had been pneumonia in fact, 118 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 4: and they didn't work within the timeframe, and Colin just 119 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: sort of appeared to be getting better on his own. 120 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: But unfortunately he was not actually getting better. Rather, his 121 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: medical issues appear to have gone undiagnosed and improperly treated 122 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: until it was just too late. 123 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 4: When you look at Collins medical files, and even if 124 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 4: you just look at his final hospitalization in August of 125 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety eight, immediately upon arrival, it was noted that 126 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: he had symptoms that were consistent with sepsis and a 127 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 4: bleeding disorder, which includes bleeding around the brain. But I 128 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 4: think the underlying thing here is like, no one can 129 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 4: look at the fact that he spent more than twenty 130 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: five percent of his short life in the hospital and 131 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 4: conclude anything other than this was a really sick kid 132 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 4: with a number of unresolved conditions that kept cropping back up. 133 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, this poor kid really didn't have a shot because 134 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: with all those problems and such a little tiny body. 135 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: You know, how does I mean anyway, So Clarence, this day, 136 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: what time did you, Jennifer go to work that day? 137 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, you were targeted 138 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: because you were the one that was home. And that's 139 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: we see that again and again in these cases. 140 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: Right Well, you know, being and I worked at night, 141 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: I took care at Colin in the daytime, and Jennifer 142 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: took care of them at night. Jennifer, she left about 143 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: one point fifty two o'clock that. 144 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 4: Day, Clarence and Colin had by all accounts, a pretty 145 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 4: normal afternoon. Like Clarence mentioned, he worked at night. He'd 146 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 4: come home in the morning, he'd sleep for a little 147 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: bit because he was working all night. He'd get up 148 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 4: when Jennifer had to go to work at the hair 149 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: cuttery at the Rotunda Mall, I believe right, Clarence, like 150 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 4: you just described, and then he'd be responsible for watching 151 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 4: Colin for the rest of the afternoon. He'd feed him, 152 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: he'd burb him, he'd change his diaper. Colin had a 153 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 4: little swing that he loved to spend time in that 154 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 4: Clarence had set up for him, and he worked out that. 155 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 4: Colin took a shower and then laid back down for 156 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 4: more sleep. And when he woke up, he went to 157 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 4: check on Colin and found him the state that costs 158 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: to bring him to the hospital. 159 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: That's correct. 160 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: He was sputtering wing with formula coming out of aspirrating 161 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: from his nose and mouth, and I immediately got my son, 162 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 3: placed him in his car seat and rushed them to 163 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: the hospital. And there being that this is inner city 164 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: hospital with all this kind of negative stuff going on 165 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: with parents that do do these child to be things, 166 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 3: and they automatically looked at me and say, oh my god, 167 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: he's a big guy. He had to have done this. 168 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: And they just didn't even consider the history of what 169 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: my son was born with. They didn't even in fact, 170 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 3: looked at it. They just looked at me as a 171 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: person and went on and started making their assumptions about SBS. 172 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: And we haven't mentioned this, but Clarence, you're a black man. 173 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: Jennifer is white, and this is America, So who knows 174 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: how race played into this whole scenario. And Lauren, did 175 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: the investigation reveal anything unusual that could have corroborated those 176 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: initial assumptions about SBS. 177 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 4: Well, according to the prosecutor during the trial back in 178 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, the fact that Clarence drank a protein shake, which, 179 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 4: as she said, could have been laced with steroids was 180 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 4: apparently something weird that could have been going on at 181 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 4: that time. 182 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: That's correct. 183 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 3: You know, I'd got my own weight set so I 184 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: could be home and work out and keep my eye 185 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 3: on my son, and it just all of that backfire 186 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: for me trying to be a healthy man. I mean, 187 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: I never drank, smoke, did narcotics, No marijuana, none of 188 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: those things. And for them to take something as healthy 189 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: as working out with weights and said it was a 190 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: steroid drink or some things in that nature. And I'm saying, 191 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: if that was true, everybody that you see in these 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: health fitness clubs would be on steroids and they are not. 193 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 4: But cynicism about that commentary aside. You know, if you 194 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 4: look at collins medical files from when he was admitted 195 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 4: to Sinai Hospital at seven forty five pm on August 196 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 4: twenty fifth, nineteen ninety eight, in a matter of hours 197 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 4: after he was admitted, Mind you, those hours included suctioning 198 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 4: formula from his airways, getting him intubated because this was 199 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 4: a baby in severe respiratory distress who was not able 200 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 4: to breathe on his own. After that was all done, 201 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 4: not much more time elapsed, and you see the first 202 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 4: reference to SBS shaken Baby syndrome in Colin's medical file 203 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 4: based on the fact that at that point they had 204 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 4: identified the presence of really just one symptom of the 205 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: triad and the related symptom, which was the intracranial bleeding, 206 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 4: based on the CT scan Colin received not long after 207 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 4: he got to the hospital in that note, Interestingly, there's 208 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 4: a reference to what else needs to be ruled out 209 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: as an alternate explanation for what Colin was presenting with, 210 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: specifically a bleeding disorder, and blood studies were run for him, 211 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: and actually in the admission note, I was looking through 212 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 4: this just yesterday. The very first thing in Colin's file 213 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 4: also says rule out sepsis, which, if you know anything 214 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 4: about steps switch to be frank. I didn't know too 215 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 4: much when I started working on this case, but it 216 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 4: is a really common cause of death among infants in hospitals. 217 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 4: It wreaks havoc on the body, It destroys the organs, 218 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 4: It causes respiratory distress what Colin was experiencing when he 219 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 4: was hospitalized, and it also causes your blood clotting system 220 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: to go haywire and for your body to bleed indiscriminately 221 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 4: and in places it shouldn't, including around the brain. 222 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: But instead of considering this confluence of medical issues, they 223 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: just forged right ahead with their SBS diagnosis. 224 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 4: I mean, Colin was labeled pretty early on as being 225 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,119 Speaker 4: a victim of SBS, and this sort of automatic diagnosis 226 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 4: of SBS, there's no understating how much immediate and certain weight. 227 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 4: It was given by the medical community and then as 228 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 4: a result by the law enforcement who were investigating this 229 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 4: case back in nineteen ninety eight. 230 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: The detectives came to the hospital and the next day 231 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 3: they got in touch with Jennifer and I. We was 232 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: preparing to go up to see Colin. We were, in fact, 233 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: we was gathering up a lot of materials that we need. 234 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: Because we were going to camp up the hospital and 235 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: stay there. 236 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: And this is early in the morning. The detective had 237 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 3: not on our door. I let him in, of course, 238 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: and I didn't even know what it was about. I 239 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: didn't had no clue. And they said, we wanted to 240 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: talk to you about your son. 241 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: You know. 242 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: I was saying, please to myself, I hope my son 243 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: ain't passed, and they said, no, can you follow us 244 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 3: to the station. So we followed them all the way 245 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: down to the station, and they put Jennifer in one 246 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: room and put myself in another room, and they used 247 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: Jennifer as a witness and used me as a suspect. 248 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 4: And in the course of questioning him, as Clarence has 249 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 4: recounted for us multiple times, they kept saying to him 250 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 4: and Claren's correct me if I'm getting this wrong. But 251 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 4: the doctors aren't lying. 252 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 5: The doctors aren't lying. 253 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 4: This is what the doctors are saying. 254 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 3: They just kept asking me, did I drop my son? 255 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: Did I hit my son in the head? And they 256 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: was getting to the point they was getting so upset. 257 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 3: They were saying, Clarence, sometimes I. 258 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: Get so mad. 259 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: Did I want to grant my child? And I want 260 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: to say, I say, that's what you would do to 261 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 3: your child. I said, not me, I wouldn't do. I 262 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: love my I was telling them. It was just a 263 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 3: back and forth thing. And then at the end, ultimately 264 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: they said, well you under rest for child abuse. 265 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Tryig 266 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Tryig leverages it's more 267 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices. To 268 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 269 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 270 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: greenbrog Triwity attorneys have exonerated and freedomanded Philadelphia represent numerous 271 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles 272 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's twenty 273 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for 274 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: their work on five death penalty cases. GT is reimagining 275 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: what big law can be because of a more just world. 276 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: Only happens by design. 277 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: And they took me out in handcuffs. Jennifer comes running 278 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 3: up to me trying to hug me. They didn't even 279 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: want Jennifer near me, and they took me to the 280 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: Baltimore County's Attention Center from net where I had to 281 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: see a commissioner to make bail. In fact, Jennifer's mom, 282 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: Missus Crocker, Oh, she was like a mother in itself 283 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 3: to me. Also, she had putting up her property, her 284 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: home for me to get out on bail. 285 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: And let's pause on that for a second. This was 286 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: your mother in law, right who was grieving with her 287 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: daughter over Colin, her nine week old grandson, who was 288 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: struggling in the hospital to survive. And in spite of 289 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: all that, neither her nor your wife Jennifer ever wavered 290 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: in their support, their steadfast belief that you could never 291 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: and would have never done anything to hurt this little child. 292 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: But their grief was just about to multiply in more 293 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: ways than one. Six days after Colin had been admitted 294 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: to the hospital. 295 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: That's right, Colin, my dear son, had passed on the 296 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: thirty first of that August nineteen ninety eight, and they 297 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: upgraded the charges to homicide. 298 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: So not only had they lost Colin, but now you're 299 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: facing trial for murder as. 300 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: Well, and you don't get a bail on murder. But she, 301 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 3: miss Crocker, she came to court and she told the 302 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: judge why I should have bail, And she asked the 303 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 3: judge because she put the same deed her property up 304 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: to reinstate my bail, and the judge went for it, 305 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 3: and he gave me bail, and I went. 306 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: Right back to work. 307 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: In fact, my boss, they was all at that hearing, 308 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: telling them what kind of employee I was pending that 309 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 3: hearing that I would always have a job. So they 310 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 3: gave me my job back and I went back to 311 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: work after all. 312 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: Of that on bail, and missus Crocker's generosity didn't stop there. 313 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: She and Jennifer hired your attorney, Donald Diaman as well, 314 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: and this went to trial on March first, nineteen ninety nine. 315 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: And was this a jury or a bench trial. 316 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: It was a bench trial. It lasted just a few 317 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 4: days this state. The prosecutor was Susan has for the 318 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 4: Baltimore County State's Attorney's Office, and the testifying experts were 319 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 4: one of collins doctors who treated him at the hospital, 320 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 4: and the medical examiner and the detectives in the case. 321 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: And to get a clearer picture of what was being 322 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: presented against Clarence back in nineteen ninety nine, I reached 323 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: out to the executive director of the Center for Integrity 324 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: and Forensic Sciences, none other than Kate Judson. 325 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 5: When Clarence Jones went to trial in nineteen ninety nine, 326 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 5: most of the challenges to SBS had only just begun, 327 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 5: so the medical establishment was firmly behind the faulty SPS hypothesis, 328 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 5: and the state's panel of five experts, which included Maryland's 329 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 5: chief medical examiner, doctor Dennis Chute, were no exception. Doctor 330 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 5: Shute performed Colin's autopsy and testified to the presence of 331 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 5: the findings associated with SBS, as well as a lack 332 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 5: of external or spinal injuries. Biomechanical studies have since shown 333 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 5: that without those injuries, shaking is an unlikely cause for 334 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 5: the injuries often associated with it. Additionally, Colin's treating physicians 335 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 5: at the hospital, doctor Aaron Zuckerberg and doctor Timothy Polk, 336 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 5: testified that retinal hemorrhaging defines child abuse and acceleration deceleration injuries, 337 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,479 Speaker 5: and doctor Polk said that the retinal hemorrhaging in this 338 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 5: case was the most severe he had ever seen. Then, 339 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 5: doctor Polk ignored Colin's bleeding disorder history and ruled out 340 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 5: sepsis as the cause of the retinal hemorrhaging. His reasoning 341 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 5: was that sepsis would cause more quote moderate and localized bleeding. 342 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 5: You know, even setting aside Colin's previous bleeding disorder throm 343 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 5: beside apenia, we know that sepsis can lead to another 344 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 5: bleeding disorder, disseminated intravascular coagulation or DC, which initially consumes 345 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 5: all the blood's clotting factors and results in not only 346 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 5: potential inappropriate clotting, but also uncontrolled internal bleeding. Doctor Poke's 347 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 5: conclusory claimed that the bleeding from sepsis would be moderate 348 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 5: and localized. It's just not something he could accurately predict, 349 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 5: which then sheds dout and everything. Poke believed logically followed 350 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 5: that he could quote imagine no possible cause of Colin's 351 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 5: injuries other than violent shaking, and that's what the judge heard, 352 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 5: not knowing that Pok had ignored sepsis and the bleeding 353 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 5: disorder DIC for the speculative conclusion that this had been 354 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 5: violent shaking. 355 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 4: Quite honestly, reading through the transcript, it's so clear the 356 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 4: thing was a moving train from the start, this moving 357 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 4: train of SBS, and it was impossible to get off 358 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 4: of and everyone had bought into it, hook line and sinker, 359 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 4: and given sort of the understanding of the medical evidence 360 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 4: at the time, you know, Clarence's defense was just kind 361 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 4: of nibbling around the edges of it. It was really 362 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: really hard, if not altogether impossible in nineteen ninety nine 363 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: when the trial took place to really take on SBS, 364 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 4: you know, head on, because it was it was so 365 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 4: widely understood and accepted as a cause for these types 366 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 4: of injuries and babies. 367 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: Right, it appears that even the defense's medical expert conceded 368 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: that SBS had some part in Colin's death, saying, quote, 369 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was shaking baby syndrome. But looking over 370 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: the history there are so many other medical problems that 371 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: I began to wonder if I could really separate the 372 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: medical problems from the pure traumatic part. And I don't 373 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: think I can. Unquote wow, So not even your own 374 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: expert was ready to competently defend you. Then the detective 375 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: Philip Marl testified about how upset you got when pressed 376 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: about hurting Colin when he said to you, the doctors 377 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: aren't lying, they're not making this up. I mean, you 378 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: never really had a chance, let's face it. So how 379 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: long did this awful sinister charade go on for? 380 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: The trial was three days? The fourth day I was 381 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 3: found guilty March nineteen ninety nine. The state's attorney, Susan 382 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 3: Haslet she was going on in her closing testimony being 383 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 3: really harsh. She don't even know me, was saying things 384 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: that didn't make any sense. And then the judge went 385 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: on and when the case was rested, Judge Grayson Turnbull, 386 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: he said that the eye doctor, doctor Timothy Pope, that 387 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 3: his testimony had the greatest amount of significance to it, 388 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: and he wrote those words down and that's what inflamed 389 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: him the most to make him come up with his decision. 390 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: Then he convicted me right then and there. 391 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: Now, the conviction was for both child abuse and murder. 392 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: And I understand that the state's attorney, Susan Haslet she 393 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: wanted to throw the book at you. 394 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 3: She wanted twenty years for the child abuse, and the 395 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 3: judge said, wait, Manue, it's not twenty years, it's fifteen 396 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: for that. They were just writing these numbers down like 397 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: it was just a yo. This man could do. This 398 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: is nothing I'm going to give. Okay, I'm going to 399 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 3: take the first degree and drop it to second degree murder. 400 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 3: So I'm going to sentence him to thirty years for 401 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: the murder and fifteen years for the child of you 402 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 3: that I'm going to run that concurrently. And I'm looking 403 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 3: at this and my family is in the courtroom. My 404 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 3: mom is in there, and my mom is wild. It's 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: falling apart, and she wasn't in the best of health. 406 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 3: And he just sentenced me to all that time. And 407 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: it's like it was like. 408 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: The Twilight he zon like, you know, am I hearing this? 409 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 3: They took me way up to the first institution, which 410 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 3: was w CI Western Correctional Institution up in Western Maryland. 411 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: The end of the stop you call it uh and 412 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: it was horrible from me. 413 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: It was just a bad experience to go and live 414 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 3: in such a small cell. It was hot, it was dingy, 415 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 3: dirty fights, arguments that you know, you got to remember 416 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 3: from being married from a I'm living with a nice 417 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: wife femininity and then moving into a high testisal of 418 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: guys wanting to fight, stealing from each other, all types 419 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: of gang members, something that I wasn't used to. 420 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: It was a hard show, you. 421 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 3: Know, because it's times I wanted I thought of suicide. 422 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 3: I said, wait a minute, I can't. You know, my 423 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 3: grandmother raised me up in church and you you know, 424 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 3: to my understanding, the Lord don't forgive you for suicide. 425 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 3: I was saying, Wow, this is a nightmare. That's what 426 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 3: kept me from wanting to be that type of person 427 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 3: to kill yourself. You know, I said, Wow, this is 428 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 3: really happening, and I had to. 429 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: Get with the program. I had to toughen up and 430 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 2: just keep studying. 431 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 3: When I found out that they had a law library, 432 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: that they had all medical books, then that's when I 433 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: started doing my research. 434 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: And this was at a time when the challenges to SBS. 435 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: The studies were just being done. The papers were just 436 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: being written at that time, and in two thousand euro 437 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: appeal was denied, as was a petition for post conviction 438 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: relief eight years later in two thousand and eight. So 439 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: then you reached out to the mid Atlantic Innocence Project. 440 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: I told them to look up my transcripts and I 441 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 3: started corresponding back and forth, sending them different information about 442 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: my son, what it happened. And they went deep and 443 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 3: deep and deep in than they knew they had wronged me. 444 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 3: But you know, I did, Innocence projects strengthened me. They 445 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 3: were sending constantly. I was getting legal mail mostly every month. 446 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: They was like they was in it with me, and 447 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: they had different law students coming in. But in twenty thirteen, 448 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: this is when I met Francis. 449 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: And by Francis, you mean Francis Walter is one of 450 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: the attorneys at the mid Atlantic Iainists Project. 451 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: Right, that's correct, Francis. That come up of October twenty thirteen. 452 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 3: And matter of fact, I was in the gym in 453 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: the prison, working out and they. 454 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: Jones, report to your housing units. 455 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 3: And I goes up to the visiting room and little 456 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: Francis she's standing there, and Francis looked at me and 457 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 3: she said, mister Jones, I'm gonna get you out. We 458 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 3: know what's going on. I'm gonna stay with you from 459 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 3: this time all the way till you get home. 460 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: And she did, Yes, she did, and she fought for 461 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: you in two different ways, both to clear your name 462 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: as well as with the parole board where you had 463 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: been repeatedly denied. And we know that they usually are 464 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: almost always wanted admission of guilt. 465 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 3: I went up, must have went up for parole about 466 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 3: five times, and every time they wanted me to milk guilt. 467 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 3: I said, I'm not gonna I said, I'll die. I'll 468 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 3: die in here because I said, I'm not going to 469 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 3: tell you I didn't do. I say, well, I mean, 470 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: where's the that's I can't live with myself. I'm telling 471 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: you only the truth. So they denied me parole. I 472 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 3: come up again, and I told them again and again, 473 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: and it kept denying me. But with Francis through the 474 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: mid Atlantic Innocent Project, had wrote them telling them that 475 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 3: they represented me, sent them medical reports, all these things 476 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 3: in the nature about my son, and they kind of 477 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 3: believed it. At the time, I had taken up a 478 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 3: trade to become an electrician, graduated and then got my 479 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 3: NCCI card. They were just telling all good things that 480 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 3: the parole hearing about me, But I still didn't omit 481 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 3: any guilt to them, and they just gave me a 482 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 3: parole date. 483 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: What was that? 484 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 3: I told her the eleventh, twenty seventeen when they released me. 485 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 2: That felt so good. 486 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 3: That was a real, real good high day for me 487 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 3: being released out in the public. 488 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 2: And then but the bad was where do I go 489 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: from here? What do I do? When they paroleed me. 490 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: I didn't have no Social Security card, I didn't have 491 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: a birth certificate card, I didn't have a driver's license, 492 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: I didn't have no money in my pocket. 493 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: They just threw me out. 494 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, It's something that I've been deeply concerned with and 495 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: involved in, is trying to figure out how to establish 496 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: better ways to help people coming home. I mean, obviously 497 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: we want to stop them from going in in the 498 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: first place, but let's face it, we probably have one 499 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand or more Clarence Jones in this 500 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: country right now that are serving time for crimes that 501 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: didn't commit and they have to We really should be 502 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: building ramps for people, and instead it seems like we 503 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: put up walls for people coming home and it's in 504 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: or guilty and it doesn't make any sense. It's not 505 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: good for them, it's not good for their families, it's 506 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: not good for their communities, it's not good for society. 507 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: And luckily I had my sister, Lynette. My sister has 508 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 3: been really strong in my life, coming to see me 509 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 3: every week, along with. 510 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: Her girlfriend who we fell in love, Peggy Peggy, between 511 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: Peggy and Linnet. 512 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 3: They took care of me because I had nothing, Just 513 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 3: like you dropped me off on a planet and I'm 514 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 3: with aliens. 515 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 2: That's how I feel. 516 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a completely different world from nineteen ninety nine, 517 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: and clearing your name could go a long way to 518 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: helping you reacclimate. So, Lauren, what did Francis Walters and 519 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic Innocescet Project do next? 520 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 4: So, the mid Atlantic Innocence Project file this petition for 521 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 4: rid of actual innocence in Baltimore City Circuit Court, which 522 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: is essentially trial court in Maryland State court system, with 523 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 4: the assistance of. 524 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: Don Saltzman, the Great Don Salzman, who is the senior 525 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: roboo partner and attorney at the Law Great Law Firm 526 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: of Skadnarp, slat Mar and Flom. And if that name 527 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: sounds familiar, it's because it was a firm that my dad, 528 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: rest in peace, was the senior partner of for many 529 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: many years, and the pro bono program was one of 530 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: his one of the things he was most proud of. 531 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: And so I know that Dad is viling down on 532 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: us from somewhere and is so happy that you're home. 533 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: So Dad, I guess we're going to dedicate this episode 534 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 1: to you, if that's okay with you, guys, And of 535 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: course to the Mid Atlanta A Gainnis's project, and all 536 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: the other lawyers who worked such long hours. They worked hard, 537 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: and they worked smart on your case, or you wouldn't 538 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: be here with us on the microphone today. 539 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 4: I mean, it's kind of crazy to think about how 540 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 4: quickly Colin was diagnosed and how much longer it took 541 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 4: to know how many minds had to be brought to 542 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 4: bear on a decision that was made relatively quickly so 543 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 4: many years ago in this case, So they filed this 544 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 4: petition for rid of actual innocence based on this theory 545 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 4: that you had. The court had all the medical evidence 546 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 4: of today to look at and to consider back when 547 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 4: Clarence was convicted, there's a substantial possibility that things would 548 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 4: have gone the other way. The team amassed all of 549 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 4: these doctors, these specialists, these forensic pathologists. They had like 550 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 4: a biomechanical engineer who explained how the forces of shaking 551 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 4: could not feasibly be possible for presentation of these types 552 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 4: of injuries. They had a pediatric infectious disease specialist to 553 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 4: talk about all the bacterial infections that Colin had when 554 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 4: he came into the hospital that caused the sepsis that 555 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 4: ultimately killed him. The trial court initially denied Clarence's petition. 556 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: Now it appears that Judge Turnbull had moved on to 557 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: be the Circuit and County administrative judge by twenty nineteen, 558 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: so this decision came from Judge Colleen Cavanaugh. Judge Kavanaugh 559 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: ruled that the defense hadn't even presented new evidence and 560 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: that there was a low likelihood of acquittal upon retrial. 561 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm not sure how that's possible, but okay, so 562 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: you appeal that up to the Maryland Court of Special Appeals. 563 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: What happened there? 564 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 4: The Court of Special Appeals in this case, and I 565 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 4: think in most cases it was a three judge panel, 566 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 4: and they reversed Judge Kavanaugh and remanded with instructions for 567 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 4: her to grant Clarence the rid of actual innocence, which 568 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 4: she did on June twenty fifth, twenty twenty one. 569 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: Right, CJ, that's correct, that's correct. 570 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: So CJ, let's talk about that, because we've talked about 571 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: a lot of miserable stuff that happened that day. What 572 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: do you remember about that day. 573 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: In the courtroom when she granted me the petition for 574 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 3: the rid of actual innocence and setting aside the convictions. 575 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: Oh, I felt. So it was a big relief, a 576 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: big relief for me. 577 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 3: They ended up even going back acting what they reconsider 578 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: but they said no and they kept them mat at 579 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: the same and then Judge Colleen did it and signed 580 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: it and said this court has done So that was 581 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: a real, real, big happy moment of my life. 582 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, amen to that. And you know, fortunately you'll now 583 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: be entitled to compensation. Even that takes too long, you know, 584 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of cold comfort, but it's certainly better 585 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: that we do compensate you. It's the least we as 586 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: a society can do. And there are too many men 587 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: and women like yourself who've suffered this unimaginable you know, 588 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: fate and come home and get nothing, and that's just 589 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: adding insult to injury. 590 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 3: But you know, nothing ever, ever could replace I look 591 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 3: at my son and I train a lot of guys 592 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 3: would have been his age twenty four in a gym today, 593 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: and a lot of them are biracial kids. And I look, 594 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 3: and I'd be wondering saying, Wow, my son would have 595 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 3: looked like that or whatever. 596 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: You know, it just it. It's so hard. 597 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 3: No amount of compensation and all this could fix that 598 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 3: with the death of losing the child, my son. 599 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: It's a hard thing. 600 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: You know, It's something that no one can No one 601 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: can fathom unless they've walked a mile in your shoes. 602 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: And to hear from you makes me want to work 603 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: harder and smarter for you and everyone who's been through 604 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: similar hardships, as I'm sure it does for the lawyers 605 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: work at the mid Atlantic and It's is Project and 606 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: other great organizations like it. They need our support, so 607 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: we'll have them linked in the bio. And now this 608 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: brings us to my favorite part of the show, closing arguments. 609 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to turn my microphone off, kick back in 610 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: my chair with my headphones on, and just listen. Lauren. 611 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: Let's let you start. You could say anything that you 612 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: think has been left unsaid. Then just hand the mic 613 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: off to mister Clarence Jones the third and Clarence, you 614 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: take us off into the sunset. I think one thing. 615 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 4: You know what you said at the outset Jason about 616 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 4: imagining the worst thing that could possibly ever happen to you. 617 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 4: I'm a parent of a little baby too, and it's 618 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 4: funny you said that because exactly how I describe this 619 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 4: case to anyone I tell about it. Imagine the worst 620 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 4: thing that could happen to you, And now imagine that 621 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 4: everyone is saying it's your fault, and you have to 622 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 4: sit in a courtroom and listen to them say terrible 623 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 4: things about you and what kind of person you are 624 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 4: and what kind of father you were. And then imagine 625 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 4: spending eighteen years in prison. Imagine not only that, but 626 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 4: you're not able to see your baby for a large 627 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 4: portion of the time he's in the hospital for the 628 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 4: last time because the police have told you you're not 629 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 4: allowed to go there. And then after your kid has 630 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 4: taken off life support, you're given a couple moments and 631 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 4: then you're handcuffed and you're taken away. And that's what 632 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 4: happened to Clarence. Here and here he is all these 633 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 4: years on, and he is still in the process of fighting, 634 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 4: and we're still in the process of fighting to get 635 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 4: him compensation, to get just a little bit of acknowledgment 636 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 4: from the state that what happened to him was wrong 637 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 4: and that he deserves some more relief and remedy for it. 638 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 4: But Clarence, as you can see, is an amazing and 639 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 4: inspiring person. He's an incredibly good man with a very 640 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 4: big heart. So thank you for the opportunity to share 641 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 4: his story, and I'll let him take it away from here. 642 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 3: Okay, listeners, You know it frightens me that any parents 643 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 3: today's up and coming parent that does something happened to 644 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: your child, that when you go into a medical facility 645 00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 3: to get treatment or whatever. 646 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: It is a scary thing for me. Anyway. 647 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: You know, I have grandchildren that and my fiance her grandsons, 648 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 3: four of them. They love me and I wouldn't want 649 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: to be around them by myself at all because little 650 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 3: boys play rough and if I per se us out 651 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 3: playing with one of them and say one of them 652 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 3: would by theirselves and they fell off a swing or 653 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: got hit by a baseball in their head. What am 654 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 3: I to do go over the same scenario. Doctors need 655 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: to consider the medical. 656 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 2: History examine instead of rushing to judgment. 657 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 3: You got to look at all the different facets of 658 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 3: how they fit together before you can just go out 659 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: and just accuse someone just because it happens. And I'm 660 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 3: just a person trying to pick up and keep my 661 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 3: head above water, doing the right things as I always 662 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 3: and like I say, I uphold the lot. I try 663 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 3: to live in the boundaries of doing the right things. 664 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 3: Just watch your children, love them, kiss them, be with 665 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 3: them at all times. 666 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: Make sure you have people. 667 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 3: Around you at all times, knowing where you're going, because 668 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 3: once you get caught up in something like this, the 669 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 3: other side never retreats. So it's a hurtful thing. If 670 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 3: it happened to me, it can happen to you. Say 671 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 3: your prayers, be true to your family. God bless everyone. 672 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: That's my word to you. 673 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. I want to 674 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, Anni, Chelsea, Lyla Robinson, 675 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn, and Kevin Wats. The music in this production 676 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 677 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 678 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 679 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 680 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on Instagram 681 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: at it's Jason flam Ravel. Conviction is a production of 682 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,959 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number 683 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: one