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Speaker 1: This is a me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless

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Speaker 1: severely vote bitten in my case, underwear listening makes eat podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't forget anything, all right, this is this is

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Speaker 1: here's the deal. We're right now. And what the highest

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Speaker 1: stadium highest high states of America. Yeah, so if you've

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Speaker 1: ever wondered, if you ever been laying in bed at

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Speaker 1: night wondering what the highest altitude college football stadium is

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Speaker 1: in America, which I was talking about that with my

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Speaker 1: wife last night. Um, it's this one Memorial Stadium. And

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Speaker 1: we're actually in Uh, if there was a game going on,

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Speaker 1: we would look out the window and see it. We're in. Like, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to call it a press box. It's the

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Speaker 1: athletic Director's box, the v A P suite, it's his

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Speaker 1: luxury box. Yeah, his luxury box. I'm here with introduce yourselves?

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Speaker 1: How much not? How much can you guys say, like

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Speaker 1: what you do for a living? I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know talk are you here? But I mean are you

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Speaker 1: here in your like can you talk to us in

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Speaker 1: your official capacity? Both? Well? Probably you know, as long

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Speaker 1: as it doesn't this like your work account or your

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Speaker 1: Gmail account. This is my work account. Gail I'm not qualifier.

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Speaker 1: I'm a policy advisor. That's what I meant for the governor.

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Speaker 1: Why I'm a governor, Matt Mead and uh, I'm working, working,

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Speaker 1: working for for about four years, and I do natural

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Speaker 1: resource Paul See. I came onto his team doing energy

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Speaker 1: UM work and I do UH right now. My main

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Speaker 1: deal is water, but interestingly enough, I also do UH.

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Speaker 1: I do water, I do firearms, refugees, international trade. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a really build out, like poker cards. That's

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Speaker 1: two of them showed up last week. We well, just

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Speaker 1: short short stories. That's why. I mean, we do not

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Speaker 1: have a refugee settlement program, so we'll just leave it

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Speaker 1: at that. And so it's just not a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of workloads there. Yeah, Dave, Yeah, David Williams. I'm a

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Speaker 1: policy advisor as well for the governor. I'm basically if

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Speaker 1: it's got hoofs or claws or pause, I'm working on

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Speaker 1: it for him. Wildlife other natural resource issues for the governor.

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Speaker 1: UM and been doing that for about a year. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you went to regular college and law school here.

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Speaker 1: I did. This is my alma mater. I did undergrad

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Speaker 1: and wildlife management and environment, natural resources and got my

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Speaker 1: law degree here as well. And then, uh, you worked

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Speaker 1: for fishing Wilder. I always want to call it fishing game,

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Speaker 1: but what you worked for the department here too, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: sort of? I mean I I was their attorney for

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Speaker 1: I was with the Attorney General's Office assigned to represent

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Speaker 1: the game of fish department. So yeah, I got involved

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Speaker 1: a lot of that. Yeah, so I did a lot

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Speaker 1: of their work. I don't know why. I've talked about

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Speaker 1: this many times and you can talk about this year podcast.

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Speaker 1: The name. Let you guys are down with who Laramie

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Speaker 1: was Jacques Yeah, yeah, spelled his name though l a

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Speaker 1: like law and then rumy and got a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff named after him for like and eight. He was

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Speaker 1: a trapper out here in eighteen twenty he went off

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Speaker 1: to go trap the headwaters at the Laramie eighteen twenty one,

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Speaker 1: doesn't show up at the rendezvous, never find his body.

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Speaker 1: There's all kinds of room is about what happened to him,

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Speaker 1: and winds up with half the state named after him.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty impressive. Yeah, Laramie, Peak, Lammie River, town of

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Speaker 1: Laramie radically change geologic episode. Dude, if he would have lived,

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Speaker 1: he would have had like he could have taken you know,

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Speaker 1: people out and been like in this and he for

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Speaker 1: a dude, they don't even know what happened to him.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even know he had a river named after him.

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Speaker 1: If he lived, nothing would have been named after Hi's

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Speaker 1: like being an artist, right, it might be you gotta

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Speaker 1: die to become famous. Before we get into what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, I want to talk about something that just

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Speaker 1: struck me so funny. Man. I was reading up on

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Speaker 1: Collapsible twenty twos and I and yesterday I took my

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Speaker 1: I took my daughter to her ballet class, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't long enough that you'd go and actually get something done,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I just kind of waited for and

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Speaker 1: while doing it, I fell in one of those internet traps.

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Speaker 1: I was just reading up on class with twenty two

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Speaker 1: and then I want to buy a on a survivalist website.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is this guy gets into what I

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Speaker 1: now think of as the ecology of apocalypse and what

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Speaker 1: he's what he's talking about was he's arguing what's the

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Speaker 1: best caliber for a post apocalyptic firearm? And he's like,

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Speaker 1: you got your commando, guys, you got your ninja guys,

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Speaker 1: But I'm gonna give you the straight dope on what's

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Speaker 1: up with post apocalyptic situation. He's like a twenty two

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Speaker 1: because you know, you're gonna have a lot of flooding

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Speaker 1: and whatnot, he's saying, and when that happens, it tends

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Speaker 1: to dry vermin out. This guy is so wrong. So

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Speaker 1: he's like, you're gonna be dealing a lot of rats

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Speaker 1: and wild dogs, and the twenty two, you see, is

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Speaker 1: a economical way to deal with all that. And he

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Speaker 1: goes in the deer populations only the last year, at

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Speaker 1: which point we're just gonna beating muskrats and whatnot, so

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Speaker 1: you're not even gonna need a big gun. The guys

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Speaker 1: out of he had the whole deal, like the and

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Speaker 1: I realized that there's like a good field of inquiry

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Speaker 1: would be the eco pology of the post apocalypse. You

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Speaker 1: could carry a lot of that stuff. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: can carry a lot of six. You're in the wrong

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Speaker 1: state talking to the wrong guys on that argument, because

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, in Wyoming, we just get up

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Speaker 1: and go to work. Yeah, get up and go to work.

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Speaker 1: That was even my brilliant segue is um, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: the ecology and the and the wildlife of the hypothetical

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Speaker 1: post apocalyptic future, and then there's the actual wildlife. Uh

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Speaker 1: that's here right now that we deal with. And you

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Speaker 1: guys already pointed out you work for the governor. I'll

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Speaker 1: point out you guys, governs, as far as approval ratings go,

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Speaker 1: has a like a pretty good, like an admirable approval rating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's often putting the top tier of of governors, like

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Speaker 1: usually of the people like you're doing really good, but six,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I was look at six. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: one of the time. I mean, they have different people

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Speaker 1: published top tens, and he's always in the top five.

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Speaker 1: He's he hasn't of course number one. You know, if

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Speaker 1: there's if it's messed up somewhere and they put somebody

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Speaker 1: else first, I'm sure that's a claric claro they can

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Speaker 1: take care of because is number one. Number one. Now,

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Speaker 1: he's a he's an amazing governor. He's a he's smart,

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Speaker 1: he's pragmatic, he's uh intelligent, he's a really easy guy

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Speaker 1: to work for. And I know Dave's just like me, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know some he uh he tapped me from the

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Speaker 1: industry I was in and asked me to come join

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Speaker 1: his team, and I got to think about it for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and I got to, you know, to

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Speaker 1: to look at him and how he does business, and

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Speaker 1: it's been He's just a really easy guy to work for.

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Speaker 1: And it's a it truly is a privilege. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's a fantastic individual. One of the things I think

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Speaker 1: is enviable about being the position you guys are in

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Speaker 1: in a state like this is you have uh like

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Speaker 1: uh I mentioned to you on an email, you have

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Speaker 1: sort of an intact suite of mega fauna like you

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Speaker 1: guys have. You're one of the few states really anywhere

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Speaker 1: that has its um that has specimens of all of

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Speaker 1: your law our channels, pretty much everything, all of the

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Speaker 1: pre contact of large mamals. Maybe not in the abundances,

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Speaker 1: but very few states are able to really say that

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Speaker 1: because you, I mean, you have a dozen Like if

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Speaker 1: you count a coyote and bigger as a large man,

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Speaker 1: you guys got about a dozen large mammals at least. Yeah. UM,

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Speaker 1: So a big part of your job is that you've

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Speaker 1: got people who actually sit around and thinking about wildlife

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Speaker 1: on a state level. And I think a lot of states.

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Speaker 1: I mean it always comes up. I mean it's like

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Speaker 1: a huge part of the work here. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: trying to keep the people happy while also doing a

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Speaker 1: responsible job of managing a menagerie of wildlife has a

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Speaker 1: lot of complications. This is a digree. I do want

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Speaker 1: to get back to. I do want top of what

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about. We're talking about wildlife management issues. UM,

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Speaker 1: but do you want do you want to have do

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Speaker 1: you wanna UM take to task you have? We talked

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Speaker 1: about stream access on the previous episode and you and

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Speaker 1: you felt that we were playing a little fast and

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Speaker 1: loose with a couple of definitions. Do you care? Do

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Speaker 1: you does it matter enough that you'd want to say, like,

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Speaker 1: here's where I think you were wrong? Now you bad?

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Speaker 1: I'd be happy to you know, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you want to go there now? And no, I mean

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Speaker 1: if you can do it in a quick way, if

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Speaker 1: you can say, let me just let me break it down,

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Speaker 1: let me just refresh yourmen's memory. So, in case you

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Speaker 1: didn't listen to this, we did an episode about stream

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Speaker 1: access law and and the and in doing that, basically

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Speaker 1: that comes down to UM, whether you and your state

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Speaker 1: or where you hang out, whether you're allowed to float

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Speaker 1: down a river. Okay, so in some states you're allowed

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Speaker 1: to stable or high water mark in your river, and

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Speaker 1: that means you can as long as you can get

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Speaker 1: in the water to fish, you can wait up and

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Speaker 1: down the river and you're cool. Um a stream gets

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Speaker 1: small enough to where you're not allowed to do that anymore,

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Speaker 1: you'd never go, you know, waiting up into private property

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Speaker 1: and a drainage ditch for instance. Like just the fact

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Speaker 1: that it's water doesn't mean as public access. So there's

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Speaker 1: all these definitions that govern what is what's known as

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Speaker 1: a navigable stretch of water, and there's some of these

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Speaker 1: and some of the definitions are so difficult in dealing

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Speaker 1: with it. For the last hundred years, people have been

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Speaker 1: arguing about it in courts, like um does said river

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Speaker 1: warrant public access, you know, like I, should you be

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Speaker 1: allowed to float it? Should you be allowed to wait

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Speaker 1: and it even though you don't have permission from landowners

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Speaker 1: who are on the river banks. The whole thing about that,

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Speaker 1: And afterwards N five very respectfully said that pointed out

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Speaker 1: some errors in yeah, just yeah, I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: tricky issue because I mean, and I think what I

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Speaker 1: mentioned is, you know, the way you guys are using it,

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Speaker 1: you're probably fine because you know, when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: navigable waters as you know, if you're saying navigable water

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Speaker 1: something I can put a boat in and quote and

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Speaker 1: really navigate, then you know you're fine. But the challenges,

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Speaker 1: you know, since you know, nineteen seventies, there's been uh,

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Speaker 1: the term navigable waters is used almost interchangeably with the term,

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Speaker 1: you know, waters of the United States or waters of

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Speaker 1: the US or not. People are saying votas. So if

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Speaker 1: you've never if you haven't heard that before, um, I

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Speaker 1: saw you use that unfamiliar with pods. But potas is

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Speaker 1: largely responsible for where we're at with votus right now,

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Speaker 1: and so waters the United States. When the Clean Water Act,

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Speaker 1: you know, nineteen seventy two, there's there's a suite of

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Speaker 1: just seminal you know, foundational important you know, environmental legislation

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Speaker 1: that came out all around the same you know, tan

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Speaker 1: twenty year period in our nation really had an awakening,

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Speaker 1: and that includes the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act,

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Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act, the you know protections that are

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Speaker 1: so you know, we talked about Land and Water Conservation

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Speaker 1: Fund and all these acts. There's you know, what you

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Speaker 1: had is bipartisan effort where everybody came together and said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, these things are bigger than me, They're

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Speaker 1: bigger than my issue, They're bigger than just one state.

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Speaker 1: Let's work together on these issues. And uh, you know

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Speaker 1: that's so you have this this passage of all these

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Speaker 1: acts and over time, am there's been some significant mission

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Speaker 1: creep in some of these and the Clean Water Acts,

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Speaker 1: the definition of waters in the US definitely falls into that,

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Speaker 1: you know ground where it started out, you know, protecting

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Speaker 1: the chemical, physical, biological integrity of the waters of the

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Speaker 1: United States. And you know, it was largely at the

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Speaker 1: beginning navigable waters, you know, and a few people are

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Speaker 1: going to argue that, and that's because a navigable water,

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Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act, it's all it's hitched up to

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Speaker 1: the commerce clause of the Constitution. So that so what

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Speaker 1: lets it work, What gives it its authority to go

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Speaker 1: into an area that you know, you know, some would

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Speaker 1: argue federalism should keep the federal government out of and

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Speaker 1: should be states rights. Is that those streams you can

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Speaker 1: use them for commerce because you can get your boat

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Speaker 1: in that stream and go across the line, and you're

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Speaker 1: you know, doing you bet. And so what happened is

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Speaker 1: over time you had things, you know, you had some

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Speaker 1: things like that. Before two thousand one that had gone

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Speaker 1: as far as having a rule card that called the

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Speaker 1: migratory bird rule right, which said, off, a migratory bird

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Speaker 1: flies across state lines and could land in that puddle

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Speaker 1: no matter where that puddle is at. Well, now that's

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Speaker 1: part of interstate commerce, therefore regulated by the federal you bet.

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Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court struck that down in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one. And I gotta be really careful about counselor

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Speaker 1: Dave here. The attorney is gonna, you know, when he

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Speaker 1: when he's you know, you mean to say so back up,

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Speaker 1: because I find it real hard to believe. You're saying

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Speaker 1: that someone proposed and from purely all touristic regulated Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I wish they would have won from a purely altruistic way,

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Speaker 1: because that'd be real good for me as a duck hunter.

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Speaker 1: But you're saying this uthing. But I would have a

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Speaker 1: real hard time justifying to add to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that it was an idea that if a

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Speaker 1: duck can land in it, it's federal property. Uh, not

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Speaker 1: federal the company it's but it's regulated by them, so

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's their pond. Yeah, but you want

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Speaker 1: to do something with that pond, you're going to ask

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Speaker 1: them for a permit. You're gonna come and say, mother,

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Speaker 1: may I And if you don't, you're going to get

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Speaker 1: the thirty thou dollar a day fine, you know, just

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Speaker 1: a fat fine on and that's you know. So that

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Speaker 1: was challenged and uh, and the court sent it back

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Speaker 1: and said, you know, I don't think so that's your

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Speaker 1: your overreaching. And then there are a couple more decisions

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Speaker 1: that occurred UM in round two thousand and six that

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Speaker 1: they're not going to go into details and born you

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Speaker 1: with swank and ripono's but those decisions the same thing,

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Speaker 1: basic thing happened. You had UM people challenging and said,

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Speaker 1: you know, you've gone too far, and this is you know,

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Speaker 1: you've taken too much authority. You know, you've gone past

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Speaker 1: the limits of what the commerce clauses should be allowing

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Speaker 1: you to do within the clean water wreck and uh,

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Speaker 1: and they the agencies were instructed to go back and

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Speaker 1: and kind of fix this issue and find and read

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Speaker 1: and and get defined what the waters of the United

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Speaker 1: States are, to get a definition of waters in the US.

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Speaker 1: And uh, the famous decision that kind of pushed everybody

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Speaker 1: back that way, you know, the pin and that everybody

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Speaker 1: that everything hinges on is Justice Kennedy who used the term,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, significant nexus, and he said, basically, look, if

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Speaker 1: you want this to attach to the Clean Water Act,

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Speaker 1: basically there has to be a connection. It has to

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Speaker 1: be significant. You can't just have you know, the grab

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Speaker 1: things from wherever. Has to be connection has to be significant.

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Speaker 1: And the reason he's pivotal is because four members of

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Speaker 1: the court said, we'd give you know, Army Core and

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Speaker 1: ep I can have jurisdiction of any waters they want.

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Speaker 1: Four members of the Court said, these guys are way

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Speaker 1: out of bounds. If it's not like right on a

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Speaker 1: navigable water, they shouldn't have it. So Kennedy said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if it's a significant nexus, then but now

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Speaker 1: to find significant nexus and so we've been in this

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Speaker 1: kind of gray area defining you know, what is a

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Speaker 1: water the US, which again people use interchangeably with you know,

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Speaker 1: navigable waters, where there's been a lot of discretion. People

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Speaker 1: been trying to figure out, well, what is it really? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when we were the argue, the discussion we had was

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Speaker 1: we never even talked about what the FED said. We

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Speaker 1: talk about how the different states define that, and that's

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Speaker 1: and honestly that's that's a different challenge because like in

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Speaker 1: Montana was one of the states we discussed, they defined

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Speaker 1: it as was it used for commerce? And that's again

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Speaker 1: that's where I say, like, where you guys are using

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Speaker 1: it the way you're using it, you're probably fine. But

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Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of the people who are

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Speaker 1: out there when they hear navigable waters and they think

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Speaker 1: that that's a settled question on the national scale, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially with the correlation, it's really not a settled question.

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Speaker 1: And so right now it's actually in the courts right now,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to you know, the the agency is

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Speaker 1: basically what happened is the EPA and Army Corps they

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Speaker 1: rolled out a proposal where they said anything with a

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Speaker 1: bed bank and an ordinary high water mark waters in

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Speaker 1: the US, anything with a bed bank in an ordinary

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Speaker 1: high wank because you sent me a picture of something

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Speaker 1: that I would even call a stream, And then that's

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Speaker 1: the issue. It doesn't even have to have water in it.

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Speaker 1: It's anything with a bed bank in ordinary high water marks,

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Speaker 1: so anything that shows sorting, anything that you know, So basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, pick a draw, you know, and if there's

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Speaker 1: potentially have a storm event and it's gonna have water

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Speaker 1: going down that draw, you know, going into a navigable water,

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Speaker 1: they think that that should be water. Us. That's a nash.

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Speaker 1: You're saying, that's a national national Yeah, it's and it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's not being implemented now because the courts, so

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Speaker 1: there were multiple efforts. Thirty two states challenged this thing

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Speaker 1: and said you've overstepped your bounds. And so in the

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Speaker 1: there's there's there's two stays on one of them within

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Speaker 1: a district court which includes you know, thirteen states including Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: and then one of them at a federal level it's

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Speaker 1: sixth Court of Appeals where it's also a state. And

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Speaker 1: what the stay means is that the states came in

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Speaker 1: to the judges and argued and said these guys overstepped

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Speaker 1: and then they looked at the they looked at the

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Speaker 1: evidence in front of them right now, and they said,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't let them implement this now because

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Speaker 1: it's gonna harm us. And the courts said that there's

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Speaker 1: a preponderance of likelihood that the states are gonna win

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Speaker 1: on the merits. And so this still has to play out.

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Speaker 1: It's going to play out in the circuit court, and

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Speaker 1: it's going to probably go to the Supreme Court. Um.

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Speaker 1: From my perspective, you know, and and and it's dicey,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a challenging issue. And the unfortunate

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Speaker 1: part about it kind of trying to come back around

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Speaker 1: to all these environmental laws that are so foundational important

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Speaker 1: it is because we didn't have to be there. You know,

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Speaker 1: there were some proposals for how you could define you know,

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Speaker 1: because there there's a The State of Wyoming protects all

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Speaker 1: waters to a degree higher than what the Clean Water

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Speaker 1: Act does. You know, if there's water on the ground

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Speaker 1: in the State of Wyoming, we protect that water and

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Speaker 1: you know, dump your cup over. You know, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: protect that water. We have water quality standards for that.

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Speaker 1: But the challenges when from my perspective that when you

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Speaker 1: have that influence coming in there, that that that federal influence, um,

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Speaker 1: it makes it really hard to be champions of of

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Speaker 1: of doing the right thing when somebody comes in and

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Speaker 1: tries to take it all away from you from a

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Speaker 1: you know, from that level. And really that's what we

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Speaker 1: feel happened with the Clean Water Act. You know, we

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Speaker 1: can take care of these waters. We know how to

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Speaker 1: do that. Montana can take care of theirs, they know

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Speaker 1: how to do that. You know, these these small streams,

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Speaker 1: these these other areas. You know we're good at you know,

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Speaker 1: come to Wyoming, comes see comes see our state. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna agree we're pretty pristine. We do a good job.

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Speaker 1: So do you guys feel this is what we emailed

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Speaker 1: about earlier more time with this and I want to

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Speaker 1: allow you to give voice this. But you feel that,

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Speaker 1: uh that that is a general theme in the American West,

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Speaker 1: in the US kind of this this Uh yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean as far as as far as when it

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Speaker 1: comes to natural resources management wildlife, do you feel that

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Speaker 1: there is a tug of war going on between states

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Speaker 1: and in the federal government? Absolutely? Where do you do?

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that that's particularly true in the West

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Speaker 1: or around the whole country? So, I, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it's more Western based, and part of it's because

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Speaker 1: you have all your public lands and west, so you

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Speaker 1: have you have your federal landownership, uh, federal land management decisions.

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Speaker 1: Then you have wildlife in the in the state's claim

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Speaker 1: ownership of the wildlife right, are trying to manage the wildlife,

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Speaker 1: and so you have inherent conflicts between the states and

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Speaker 1: the federal government in the West. Um, I'm sure it's

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Speaker 1: a I'm sure they have issues in the East as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's I think it's probably more pronounced in the West,

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Speaker 1: at least on the wildlife issues because of those the

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Speaker 1: public land interface with uh wildlife man, because it gives

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Speaker 1: them something to have jurisdictions. Yeah, yeah, um okay, because

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Speaker 1: because I think waters esoteric, it might be even a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to discuss. Now he is gonna go to

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Speaker 1: law school now after that? I mean it was good, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought it. It was good. But I want to

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Speaker 1: make I make a mean pizza as long as you

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Speaker 1: keep the cheese on top. Ways here in law school,

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Speaker 1: So I wanna do that same thing. But tell like, like,

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Speaker 1: tell me the story. Explain in terms of wolves, because

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Speaker 1: people love wolf. Yeah, explain like the state federal dispute

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Speaker 1: all right, in terms of wolves and wolves? I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: talk wolves, that's all I'm gonna am. I talk bears

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I want to talk, but for sure, wold, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear in terms

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Speaker 1: of wolves and bearrass. All right, So wolves, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do some devil's advocacy, don't do it just to make

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Speaker 1: sure we get the whole point out. That's a complicated thing,

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Speaker 1: it is, for sure. So history of wolves in Wyoming zero.

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Speaker 1: There were zero wolves in the state of Wyoming. Wolves

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Speaker 1: are are introduced or reintroduced depending on who you talk to. Uh,

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Speaker 1: depends need state to stay reintroduced. It depends on who

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Speaker 1: you talk to. We is someone saying that, is someone

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Speaker 1: proposing that wolves had migrated down from Canada. Look, no,

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Speaker 1: you know what you have is you have to two

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Speaker 1: trains of thought. And you have some folks that said, well,

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Speaker 1: the wolves that they brought in from Canada are different

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Speaker 1: than the wolves that in Wyoming before. And they're debating

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Speaker 1: introduced or reintroduced exactly. Yeah, anyway, so that different topics

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Speaker 1: that yeah, okay, yeah, alright, alright, so that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a great story, a great thing that they brought down

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Speaker 1: super wolves. Yeah, that's for another. And we've even met

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Speaker 1: a guy. We met a guy who told we met

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Speaker 1: a guy in BC who was like, oh, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: I knew one of the guys that was catching him.

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Speaker 1: I need a trapper, And he said he'd go in

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Speaker 1: there and pick out the meanest, nastiest ones and sent

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Speaker 1: him down to Wyoming. Anyway. Inefficient. Yeah, they've been effective wolves.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, So so I was messed up reintroduction introduction,

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Speaker 1: let's just let's just say and let's just say reinduced.

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Speaker 1: It's it's all the same. It's all the same species

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Speaker 1: in a, in a in Lena in terms, yeah, all

425
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: the same species reintroduced uh in ninety six, something like

426
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: thirty two or thirty four total wolves. Yeah no, But

427
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: just to get the full story, sure, where was the

428
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: state of Wyoming on that. That's an interesting one because obviously,

429
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: for the years leading up to that, uh, Wyoming didn't

430
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: want to see wolves come back into the state. But

431
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: it got to a point where, uh, we saw the

432
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: writing on the walls this was gonna happen. So we

433
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: negotiated what's called a ten J rule. So, and which

434
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: under the Endanger Species Act ten J is an experimental

435
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: but non essential population. So theoretically, uh, you can put

436
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: them in there. The overall population. If you take those

437
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: wolves out that you put in there, it's not gonna

438
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: have an effect on the overall population. And so it's

439
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: experimental non essential. Uh. And and by getting that designation,

440
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: we said, okay, as long as they're experimental non essential,

441
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, we'll take these wolves. Didn't because it gives

442
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: you some more latitude. It gives you some more latitude

443
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: with like lethal control and things if you right. It

444
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: so gives you more regulatory flexibility. That people are following

445
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: all this complicated, Yeah, I try. I'm gonna limit my interruptions,

446
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to paint one quick picture for

447
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: right now. There was a period of time when in

448
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: the bit roots, the bit root range, people were like

449
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: they were talking about in reintroducing some grizzlies in the

450
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: bit root range, and it would have carried the reinroduction,

451
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: would have carried with it that ten J status, or

452
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: you could have waited for the inevitable, which is one

453
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: was gonna show up there on its own. If it did,

454
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: it would have a whole different status. That's because it

455
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: wandered in there on its own. And I remember thinking

456
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: that the people who were uneasy with grizzlies, I like,

457
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: you ought to make a deal with the devil and

458
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: go with the ten J, Go with the ter go

459
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: with the ones that were put in their mechanically, because

460
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: you're gonna have a little more leeway because eventually they're

461
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: gonna get in there anyway, and then you're gonna not

462
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: have any leeway. That's right. And the flip side is

463
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: if if they leave the ten J area, uh, they

464
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: take on the threatened status. Yeah. So so you have

465
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: a designated area, so it works both ways. You have

466
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: this ignated ten J population and boundaries for the ten

467
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: J area. So Wing said, okay, uncle, do it right.

468
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: So we have them, Uh, they're reintroduced. We have wolves. Uh.

469
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: Since that time, over the course of the last twenty

470
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: years or so, Uh, we have managed that population to

471
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: the point that it was twelve thirteen years ago that

472
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: we met all of the recovery criterias. So the US

473
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: Fish and the Wildlife Service said, for purposes of delisting,

474
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: you need to do you need to meet X, Y

475
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: and Z. You need and they at the time at

476
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: the time of the yeah, yeah, and they worked with

477
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: the states on that, so set up these this framework

478
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: for Okay, if you get to this point, we'll start

479
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: the d listing process. So we met that twelve thirteen

480
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: years ago and I I you'll you'll ask me what

481
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: were those numbers, And I can't remember the specific numbers,

482
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: but it was somewhere around a hundreds. That was maybe

483
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: even less than that hundred wolves outside of UH. I

484
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: think it was outside of Yellstone National Parks, outside of

485
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: the outside of the park. So they cut they cut

486
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: thirty two loose inside the park. They did, and then

487
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: we had a requirement for what the management had to

488
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: be outside of the park UH and the wind River

489
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: Indian Reservations up there, and so those wolves don't count

490
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: towards our obligations as the state to meet these recovery crinteria.

491
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: So this one wolves was like gradual spill over from

492
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: the population that was introduced in Yellastone. I would not

493
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: call it gradual. I would call it almost instantaneous. I mean,

494
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: so now today we have almost four hundred wolves in

495
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: in Wyoming, not just outside the that's counting the park

496
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: and everything. But you've hit four times recovery objective. We've

497
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: we've were way over recovery objective. The Fish and Wildlife

498
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: Service has tried to delist wolves uh in Wyoming at

499
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: least a couple of times. Um, we've been in five

500
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: different losses and point that's the Feds. Yeah, that's people

501
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: that ran the introduction. That's right, it's not it's not

502
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: the state. I mean, the state's been pushing for for delisting,

503
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: but the federal government, the US Fish and Widlife Service

504
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: actually wrote two rules to d list wolves in Wyoming

505
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: and the and other states too much like them saying, Hey,

506
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: the wolves we put in there have got to the

507
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: point where we wanted them to get. We will now

508
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: turn them back to the state to manage. Can you

509
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: explain why people can hunt him in Idaho? The road

510
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: you hear the voice of to give you give you

511
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: a little bio real quick fishing guide, mediator, production assistant

512
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: general paint in the ass right, but yeah, I want

513
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: to get to that real. Have a question I think

514
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: that's relevant right now, is what the goal all along

515
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: was to get him off of the list, right, right?

516
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: And when it's time to get him off the list,

517
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: why would like Wyoming be pushing for it, and why

518
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: would the feds be pushing for it. If they even

519
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: were pushing for like, what do they get out of it?

520
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: If if like they say, please do this, let's do this,

521
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: and it does happen. So the states get something the

522
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: feds get. So the states get on ship and you know,

523
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: get management of their wildlife back, the ability to make

524
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: management decisions and and deal with uh, you know, they

525
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: can have hunting seasons, they can deal with damage problems, wolves,

526
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: killing livestock, you know that sort of thing. The federal

527
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: is mostly just like the ownership then of the regulation

528
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: and the wildlife right and the manes all the wildlife anyways, right,

529
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: and so from the federal government standpoint, it's an opportunity

530
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: to say, here's an example where the Endangered Species Act worked.

531
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: You know, we we had a listed species, we recovered

532
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 1: that species, we got them off the list. We can

533
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: move to the next thing and do it. See the

534
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act works. So that's what the federal government

535
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: gets out of it. Plus they get out of the management.

536
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: I mean, they get the they can move on to

537
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: other things, and their money doesn't have to go free

538
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: up those dollars, that personnel, you know, all that stuff.

539
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: Because the Nixon signed the Endangered Species Act in the

540
00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: law in they've listed about two thousand speed sees over

541
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: that ye about now, and I think they've no species

542
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: get off the list and a handful of ways that

543
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: they don't want to get off. Where they realized they're

544
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: extinct that's ten, or they realized that they messed up

545
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: the count and found populations that they didn't know about.

546
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, they're not they're not endangered. You got

547
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: the numbers good, or you're making them, or you actually

548
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: recover them. And how many have recovered out of two

549
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: tho roughly thirty four maybe thirty six have been recovered. Yeah,

550
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of works to be done, although

551
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: I'd argue six that have come off the list to

552
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: the recovery. There are other species on that list that

553
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: have recovered. Wolves and example, we have talked to you

554
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: guys that works on Cariboo in the lower forty eight

555
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: and there's about fifteen. Right, So here we are, you

556
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: got four hundred wolves whelming on. You know at the

557
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: point we left off you want up right right? That's

558
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's where we are today. Yeah, And so

559
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: I was only we we've now had I think five

560
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: different lawsuits since two thousand and four challenging the Fish

561
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Services attempts at delisting wolves in Wyoming. And

562
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: we've been through so we've been through multiple rounds and

563
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: and in one of them, and this will get to

564
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: your question about about Idaho and Montana, So in one

565
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: of them we have and this is a big controversy,

566
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: but in Wyoming we put together a wolf management plan,

567
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, and all the states had to put together

568
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: before there was delisting. All the states right had to

569
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: put together a wolf management plan that said, once wolves

570
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: are delisted, here's what we will do. And it needed

571
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: to be endorsed by the Fish and Wildlife Service for

572
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: the service to be able to move forward. And we

573
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: had some lawsuits over our plan. The Service wasn't liking

574
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: our plan, but ultimately we had a court say it

575
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: was fine. The biggest tea, the biggest hang up in

576
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: our plan was we we created a dual classification for wolves.

577
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: So in northwest Wyoming, where most of the world, well,

578
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: where all of our wolves are, we called them trophy game,

579
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: which in Wyoming is limited to things like grizzly bears uh,

580
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: wolves um, black bears, mountain lions uh they have a

581
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: certain there's a there's there's certain thresholds to be able

582
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: to hunt them. Yeah, if it's all there right now,

583
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: big horns are just a game animal, just a big

584
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: game anilso trophy game is treated a little different and

585
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: they have, you know, different quotas that they've set up,

586
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: and they manage them a little different. So it's more

587
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: heavily regulated. And so that's how they were classified there.

588
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: In the rest of the state, outside of this trophy

589
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: game area, we classified wolves as predators and in Wyoming,

590
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: like coyotes, in Wyoming predators you don't need a license.

591
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: It's open season. Um you know, no license, no season,

592
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: you go out and shoot as many wolves as you

593
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: see in the predator zone. And that was they didn't

594
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: like it, But we did have a federal judge say, look,

595
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: the the objective here is to recover wolves. The plan

596
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: that Wyoming's written still meets the requirements for having a

597
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: recovered wolf population, and they just have a different way

598
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: of doing business than Idaho and Montana. Um so, so

599
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: they moved forward with a d listing rule with that

600
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: management plan. Well, a different federal judge didn't much care for, uh,

601
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: for our management plan. Uh. And so the what ended

602
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: up happening, I guess is that the Service wound up

603
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: moving forward with trying to delist just in Idaho and

604
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Montana because there were problems with our plan and uh

605
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: in Idaho and Montana. UM what that went to litigation

606
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: as well, and the court there said, uh, you cannot

607
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: delist in just those two states. You know, they tried

608
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: to create what was called a distinct population segment UH,

609
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: which is another provision under the Endanger Species Act to

610
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: delist these wolves. UH. That didn't include Wyoming, and they said,

611
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: you cannot, right, you cannot draw the judge so you

612
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: cannot draw a DPS distinct population segment on political boundaries.

613
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: It has to be biological boundaries. These wolves are moving

614
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: across state lines. And so that's when Congress got involved. Uh.

615
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: So they struck down the judge struck down the rule

616
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: to delist in Montana and Idaho, and Congress got involved

617
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: and reinstated that rule and made it uh litigation proof.

618
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: So put the rule back in place, litigation proof. They

619
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: be that rule then meant those wolves in Montana and

620
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: Idaho were delisted. The ones in Wyoming stayed on. We

621
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: got another rule to de list in Wyoming in two

622
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, the service put forward another rule to

623
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: de list in two thousand twelve. We actually had management

624
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: authority for two years. UH. At that point, you guys

625
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: ran two wolf seasons. We did, and actually, in at

626
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: least in our first wolf season, we never actually met

627
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: our quota. Turns out wolves get really smart after being

628
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: shot at for a day or two, and they get

629
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: real hard to find. Was the quota? Oh, I think

630
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: the total quota. I'm gonna I'm just gonna throw a

631
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: number out there because I'm not gonna get it spot on,

632
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: but around fifty uh, and I think we missed that

633
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: by ten or so or fifteen uh in that first year.

634
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: Second year, I don't think we hit the quota either.

635
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: And then the court came out and UH vacated that

636
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: rule and they went back on the list again. And

637
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: actually last Friday we have the Fishing Wireless Service appealed

638
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: that decision. UH, and last Friday we had arguments on

639
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: that in d C. And it was kind of funny

640
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: that the judge and that not funny in a hahaway,

641
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: but the the judge and that in that district court

642
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: case in d c didn't argue that the that wolves

643
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: had actually recovered, said, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna

644
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 1: dispute the services decision or determination that wolves in Wyoming

645
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: have recovered. Her biggest problem was that our wolf management

646
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: plan wasn't it wasn't adopted in regulation or statute, and

647
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: so it wasn't it didn't have We made all these

648
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: promises that she felt like we could just break, uh

649
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: to maintain our wolf populations. Of course, in Wyoming, we

650
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: say we don't want to go through the last twenty

651
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: years again. Yeah yeah, uh so we I mean, we're

652
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: gonna be pretty conservative and we're going to manage these

653
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: wolves and we're gonna have wolves well into the future

654
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: because we don't want to go through what we've had

655
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: to go through the past twenty years. It is possible

656
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: that it could happen. Oh yeah, I mean, like it's like,

657
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 1: there's nothing preventing relisting from happening. Well, it's except having

658
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: enough wolves. I mean that's what I'm saying. Like, in

659
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: a legal way, if all of a sudden they were

660
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: all gone, they just get relisted right now, they're all gone.

661
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: If they if they got below a threshold, well if

662
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: the population started creating. Yeah, there's two ways. I mean,

663
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: the service couldn't look at it themselves and say, you know, Wyoming,

664
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: you're not doing a good job the populations created. We're

665
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna have to do it ourselves and relist ourselves.

666
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: Or uh, you know, somebody, anybody could file a petition,

667
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: uh with the Fishing Wilife Services and say, relist these wolves.

668
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: They're struggling. Um, we don't think that that's gonna happen.

669
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: I mean we we think we've proved in the two

670
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: years we managed the wolf population, Wyoming remains strong and

671
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: way over objective. So so who has me? Like what's

672
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: going on in Montana and idhol Right now? They have

673
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: Montana and Idaho they're managing wolves. They it's the states

674
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: of there's state animals. Now there's state wolves. But you

675
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: guys have not gotten the back. We have not gotten

676
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: why But why won't We're stubborn? But why not capitulate.

677
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: What's the argument for just saying like, Okay, what does

678
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: the plan they have? How did they get management? Why

679
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: don't we mirror that plan and get management? Every state's different,

680
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: we have our own priorities. You're you're taking your your

681
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: your approach is that you're like, no that we're right, Oh,

682
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: go ahead, I have the answer. Okay, if it's a

683
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: goofy answer, don't tell me. Okay you later. Then does

684
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: it have anything to do with Montana and Idaho managing

685
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: them as game animals that you gotta buy tags for

686
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: and Wyoming calling them predators and it's just a free

687
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: for all? That that was ultimately the reason why uh

688
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: why Montana and Idaho got there and we didn't. So

689
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: off Wyoming got control back. Would they handle it more

690
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: like Montana where you got to buy a tag and

691
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: it's a game animal and no, we I mean we

692
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: have we have a management plan. I mean, this dual

693
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: classification system has been signed off on by judge right now.

694
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: The problem is do we have it? You know, are

695
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: are the commitments we've made to maintain a certain population?

696
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: Are they sufficient? That? Yeah? Yeah? That also that's where

697
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: it still is that now, Yeah, yeah, that's that's like

698
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: whether it's whether it's been adopted into the sort of

699
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: rigid enough sense of the law. Can the states be trusted?

700
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: I mean that's what it was down. Can the states

701
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: be trusted to maintain this population. This is coming right

702
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 1: back around to the company the overarching issues. You started

703
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: with wolves. But when you look at these environmental laws,

704
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: we just talk about wolves in my opinion. You know,

705
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: the same groups that sue Wyoming, you know they're gonna

706
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: see Wyoming no matter what. They just needed to you know,

707
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: they needed a reason to do that. Those guys, they

708
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: don't want anybody hunting wolves. They don't want Montana and

709
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: Idaho hunting wolves. They don't want anybody hunting bears. They

710
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: don't want you know, it's just that's that's not the priority,

711
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: and so favorite animals. And when you look at so

712
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: you look at what you know, it wasn't an issue

713
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: how many wolves there were. You know, it's an issue

714
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: of hunting wolves. And when you look at you again

715
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: found out foundational pieces of environmental law. These these laws

716
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: that came together. Everybody's like, hey, let's work together. Is

717
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: a big team to protect this stuff. Endangered Species Act, Honestly,

718
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act is so similar to it and

719
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: how it kind of came about and works that it's

720
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: I mean, they're really all these laws are very similar.

721
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: But when you have every when you have a big

722
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: group come together saying let's keep water clean, Let's work

723
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: as a team, let's save alms, let's work as a team.

724
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: And you have you know, there are some folks that

725
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: that's you know, they don't have the same I mean,

726
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,959
Speaker 1: I think that these laws and we see people pushing

727
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: against these laws and saying they don't work anymore. It's

728
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: not that the laws don't work anymore. It's that, you know,

729
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: we have to find a way to get back to

730
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: the original intent of the laws, to get back to

731
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: what when Congress built them, what Congress hadn't mind, because

732
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: that's how you get everybody on board, rather than having

733
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 1: the law become a tool for uh a minority viewpoint,

734
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: If that makes sense. Yeah, that that's the point I've

735
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: made a handful of times. What happened a discussion is

736
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: that people, I feel have taken well meaning laws like

737
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act and sort of weaponize them where

738
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: you use it as a tool, where you're not talking

739
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: about what the intent of it is. You're talking about

740
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: how you can use it as a way to to

741
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: pursue some goal. And I feel as though I said

742
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: as many times, I feel as though you wind up uh,

743
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: delegitimizing the Act like if you say, it just pains

744
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: me to think that someone would would kill a grizzly Berger,

745
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: So in order to save Risley bears, I will take

746
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: something like the the E s A and sue on

747
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: grounds of how you're interpreting the E s A when

748
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: you're not really talking about the Endangered Species You're not

749
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: talking about the function of the Endangered Species Act. You're

750
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: talking about that you don't want someone to kill bears,

751
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: which would be I would suggest in that case you

752
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: should pursue some whole other thing like um, My Favorite

753
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: Animal Act or America's Most Cuddly Seeming Animals Act, by

754
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: which you could just pursue your goals in a way

755
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: that you're you're actually articulating what it is you're after,

756
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: rather than using it. You know as well as not

757
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: has has not intended to you know, these are they're

758
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: really challenging issues. But the reality is, and I think

759
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: that this is where we have a great opportunity right now.

760
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: I think people have seen I think people are tired

761
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: of they're tired of divisiveness. I think we've all seen

762
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: issues out there where you know, we've we've seen how

763
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't work to just get on opposite sides of

764
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: the table, put a problem in between us, and then

765
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: just argue about who whose fault it is. And I

766
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 1: think I honestly believe the majority of people now we're

767
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, we, you know, the pragmatic problem solvers. I

768
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: think most of us are that. I think most people

769
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: are that. I think we have a unique opportunity with

770
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: these at this point in time to get people who

771
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: are like all these people sitting around this table now,

772
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: who are just saying, hey, you know what, let's make

773
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 1: everything work, you know, because these things are too important

774
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: to fail at. You know, they're too important to fail at.

775
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: And and you see, you know, you know, I I'm

776
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 1: a fan. I listened to a lot of your stuff,

777
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, pick the environmental law, pick

778
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: the issue. You're always going to be able to find,

779
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: whether it's on this side over here, on left side

780
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: of that side over there on the right side, you're

781
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: gonna be able to find voices who are out there

782
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: that are on those those far you know, opposite sides

783
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: of an issue. And unfortunately, I think it's too easy

784
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: right now to get on Facebook and become friends with

785
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: people that only believe exactly what we believe and then

786
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: to believe that you know that that's exactly what you

787
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: should be doing, when in reality, I think if we

788
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: could all back away and look, you know, and not

789
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: demonize everybody's opinions or their point of view based on

790
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: the outliers that are within their community, we find that

791
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: we all actually do want the same thing still. We

792
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: all want healthy wildlife populations. And whyoming you know, we

793
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: believe we have the local knowledge and we've proven it

794
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: to know how to manage those things correctly to keep

795
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: them there. We all want clean water, you know, we

796
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: all want fish in that clean water. Um, but you

797
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: you have to at some point step back and trust

798
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: the people who are on the ground that have the

799
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: local expertise, and trust them with the ability to manage

800
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: and ultimately get their buy in, whether it's the private

801
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: landowner buy in or the local government buy in, because

802
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: it is the buying of those people living in those

803
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: ecosystems with those issues that's what ensures the success of

804
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: that species. That's what ensures that that stream gets fixed.

805
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: It's not a law, it's not a regulation. It's not

806
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: people who write a check from in place far away.

807
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 1: It's people who want to come and fix the issues

808
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: on the ground today and live with those issues and

809
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: make sure that they're kids like my kids. You know,

810
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: I have a six year old and the three year old. Man.

811
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm going into the wilderness to hunt elk on Thursday. Yeah,

812
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: we're exactly going. Yeah, well, I'll tell you the wilderness

813
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: the exact coordinates. It's right next to Colorado, right, David. Okay,

814
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,919
Speaker 1: maybe I won't tell you. How much do you guys file?

815
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: How much you guys follow the UH wolf fishing to

816
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: other states? I follow? Are you talking? You're going Western

817
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: Great Lakes on me? I want to talk. Well, let's

818
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: talk about Western Gray Lakes, which is where I'm from,

819
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: or where you say Northern Great Lakes or the Mexican

820
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: gray wolf like Mexican gray wolf. But no, because this

821
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: brings up a point you're talking about with with state

822
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: and federal stuff. So the Mexican gray wolf smaller than

823
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: a Northern gray wolf. They used to range in New Mexico, Arizona,

824
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 1: Western tech Us, Northern Mexico UH one extinct. They got

825
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: listed around the same time. Yeah, I released mid seventies. Okay,

826
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: then you wind up having I would say that in

827
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: a national sense you had overwhelming public support for reintroduction

828
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: of the gray wolf, and under the idea that if

829
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: you had a species, we have a species of wildlife

830
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: that when extinct due to human causes, so we brought

831
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: it to extinction. A lot of people feel that that

832
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: would mean you have a moral obligation to correct to right.

833
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: You're wrong if assuming that, like the God given animals

834
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: that live on the planet should be present, that's like

835
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: a basic assumption. People said, if we accept that that's true,

836
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 1: that we don't have the right to drive things to extinction.

837
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: We needed to right the wrong. Overwhelming public support. Now,

838
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: I would say generally when it comes to the Mexican

839
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: gray wolf, you've had generally, um, the States kind of

840
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: dragging their heels about this. There's a recent fight going

841
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: on where not too long ago, they had some animals

842
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: in there, and the Feds have been doing reinroductions using

843
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: with state permits. So they would do renin inductions, they

844
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: would get state permits. They weren't able to secure some

845
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: state permits and went and dumped into a couple more

846
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: wolves just on their own without state approval. I gotta

847
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: slap on the wrist about it, all right, But in

848
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: a case like that, wouldn't you say that the Feds

849
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: are sort of pursuing a national interest on federal property,

850
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: almost in conflict with people who have a local interest.

851
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: But they if you ask them, if you have the

852
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: people acting on that bad if they would say that, well,

853
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: our mandate is to the people of the nation. So

854
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: but but how do you feel, like, how do you

855
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: rectify those two things, because I'm wondering how were like

856
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 1: people generally want to accept like a local person, right,

857
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: a local person has sort of a you know, it

858
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: should be allowed like a reasonal amount of say in

859
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: issues that affect his backyard. But we also have the

860
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: bigger picture. Meaning if I pollute a stream in my

861
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: yard and I just say, but it's my stream, it's

862
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: my property, someone might say, but where does the water go? Right,

863
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: it goes down into my place. So you're not just

864
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: acting on your place, You're acting on everyone's place. Like

865
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: in a case like that, when you look at me

866
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: like and and personally, I support the idea that I

867
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: think states do a good job of managing wildlife that's

868
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: on the in the here and now. States to a

869
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: phenomenal job of managing wild if found the ground. That's

870
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: right here. But what about these cases where overwhelmingly people

871
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: want grizzly bears, they want wolves, and you have a

872
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: state that kind of is is up front in the

873
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: beginning of the process, not into the idea. Then all

874
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden they get there against that states will

875
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: You can see how the FEDS would then say, I'm

876
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: a little reluctant to hand this over to you because

877
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: you guys didn't want this to happen. Do you remember,

878
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: like how do you feel about that? Like that situation

879
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: where does the switch occur? Yeah, where the state says

880
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: you're right, I didn't, but they're here now and I promise.

881
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: So so that's where the I think the Endangered Species

882
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: Act comes into play, right, Yeah? So yeah, and that

883
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: I mean that brings us back to wolves in Wyoming.

884
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: I think that's where you're going, right, And well, anything

885
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: in Mexico, you know, you know, I don't Arizona. I

886
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: probably won't talk about that too. I'm very comfortable with

887
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: the microcol with it's an analogy, right, and and so

888
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: in Wyoming, yeah, we we very clearly didn't on them.

889
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: Uh but because of what, because of what reasons? Just

890
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: be just be Frank, I mean because you have a

891
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: huge Like you guys have what what percents your industries last, Well,

892
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: it's our third largest industry in the state, behind energy

893
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: and tourism and then agriculture, and so yeah, there are

894
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: a lot of grazing allotments up in the National Forest

895
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: and Northwest Wyoming. Uh. It's also uh the impacts to sportsmen,

896
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: especially on large angulus, so elk moves deer hunters, that's

897
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: a primary food source for wolves. And so there was

898
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: a lot of fear and it turns out some rightful

899
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: fear in what what bringing wolves back into Northwest Wyoming

900
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: might do to some of those angul population. Man, they

901
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: I mean how many you got four hundred outside of the

902
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: the park. The seven pounds me today counting the park,

903
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: that counts the park. I mean they eat seven pounds

904
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: of me today. So I mean you've seen this right Montana, Yeah,

905
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: the elk herd. I moved to Montana. The elk herd

906
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: my brothers still hunts the same el Kurt he's hunting

907
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: one third the number of elk to use hunted nine

908
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: to night. It's been real interesting living in northern Colorado,

909
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: watching what's happened up there because pretty much everyone in

910
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: northern Colorado has a wolf story. Who knows if they're

911
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:22,959
Speaker 1: there or not. But but yeah, you want to don't

912
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: have Colorado. But it's been interesting watch because Colorado just

913
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: wrote a preemptive wolf management plan based on the Mexican

914
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: gray wolf and based on what's happened up here. And

915
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: the gist of the plan was is we don't want

916
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: we will absolutely not put up with any kind of

917
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: reintroduction program. If they make it here naturally, so be it,

918
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: but we do not want wolves reintroduced in Colorado. And

919
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: that and that wolf management program, as far as I know,

920
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: was approved and it's so it's a lot of it

921
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: I think was politically driven, just seeing the kind of

922
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: the ship storm that revolves around wolves. But you know,

923
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: because they're worried about that, you are they down? Are

924
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: they they've been confirmed? Siding I know they're in Colorado. Yeah, no,

925
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: they've they've been wolves in Colorado. Are they have they

926
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: set up packs? I don't really answer to that. So

927
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: the reluxtance livestock, what it's gonna do to large ungulate

928
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: And then I think, you know, just to be frank,

929
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: having the federal government for something. It's a trust issue.

930
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean, at the heart of it, it's a trust

931
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: issue where you know, I've got a great friend who's

932
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: got a big ranch up uh, you know, right outside

933
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: the thoroughfare in Wyoming and just beautiful place. Uh go

934
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: hunt there, everyone, Um, Actually, don't go hunt there, go

935
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: on someplace else. I'll be there next week. Beautiful, beautiful,

936
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: beauty flurry. But I mean, you know, you talked to

937
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: this guy, and you know he lives with these prejutoricses

938
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: backyard every day and his number one goal, you know

939
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: what it is make sure that ranch gets passed down

940
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: to his kids, is to keep his lifestyle going. And

941
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: so we kind of demonize these folks and the reality

942
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: is these honestly, these guys, it doesn't matter whether they're

943
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: raising cows or whether they raising horses, or whether they

944
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: were raising bears. The fact is if you let them

945
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: keep their lifestyle going, you let them keep that place

946
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: economically viable. I mean, that's what's important to them. You know,

947
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: it's not they're not out there, you know, trying to

948
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: make biological decisions for everybody. They just want somebody to

949
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 1: come in and and honestly ruin their life and I've

950
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: got a good friend and said, hey, look I love fish.

951
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: I love you know, wildlife, and you know, between water

952
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: and fish, I'm gonna put some water from some water

953
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: in my ditch. So we always have fish. But don't

954
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: make it between my life and the fish. You know.

955
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: There's another value to that too, uh, And it's for

956
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: wildlife habitat. Northwest Wyoming is a pretty popular place for

957
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: people to move, you know, Jackson holds so forth. The

958
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: having these landowners that are able to continue their livelihood

959
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: and pass their ranches down to future generations allows a

960
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: buffer between you know, the federal land, the wilderness areas,

961
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: and your you know, highly fragmented ranch at type of

962
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: developments and communities. So you create this buffer habitat. So

963
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: it's pretty important and and I think we recognize that.

964
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing we've done for wolves,

965
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: to help these landowners and to help this happen is

966
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: by state law. If they can, If if we can

967
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: send somebody from our game and fish out and confirmed

968
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: that their livestock has been killed by a wolf, we'll

969
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: pay for Sportsmen are paying for it. Even though you

970
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: don't have management. Even though we don't have management, we

971
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: still compensate our landowners. You guys put the bill for that.

972
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: We put the bill, not the federals, the states. We

973
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: do it for grizzly bears, we do it for wolves, um,

974
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: and then we do it for other species. To elk,

975
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 1: you know, get into a haystack, we'll compensate the landowner

976
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 1: for that. But one of those wolfs, why don't you

977
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: guys just say, hey, it's not my problem, you know what,

978
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: because it is our problem still. Yeah, I mean, the

979
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: federal government is admirable to doing it, but I just wouldn't.

980
00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: I can't believe that it winds up being your financial respont.

981
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: The federal government is not going to come in and

982
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: do it. They don't have the money to run a

983
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 1: wolf management program anyway. They definitely don't have the money

984
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: to to pay landowners for the type of damage we're

985
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, million dollar numbers a year in

986
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: uh damage. That that's a huge misconception. I think that somehow,

987
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: because these laws exist, that the federal governments come with

988
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: the checkbook and taking care of all these issues, whether

989
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: it's on impaired streams, whether it's you know, wolf or bear. Honestly,

990
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 1: private landowners and states are the ones that they're paying

991
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: to fix these issues. You know, that's where the majority

992
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: of the money is coming from. I think that shows

993
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: a commitment from Wyoming too to having the wolves on

994
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: the landscape. Is the fact that you know, we're doing

995
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,399
Speaker 1: everything we can to make our landowners whole, uh, which

996
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: in turn build some some goodwill and and support, you know,

997
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: at least some support for having wolves there from landowners

998
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: if they know they're at least being made whole for

999
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: their losses. Uh. You know, we've been doing this for

1000
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 1: years with grizzly bears. Last year, I think we spent

1001
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: one point two million dollars on damage claims on compensating

1002
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: landowners for losses to livestock from grizzly bears. We don't

1003
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: have management authority at all over grizzly bears. Uh, but

1004
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: we're still paying for it. Yeah. So so. But but

1005
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: I want to get back to one point. What do

1006
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: you think about all this so far? Oh? Hi, Steve, nothing,

1007
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: I just uh, it drives me crazy. What does the

1008
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: whole fact that the federal government tells the states what

1009
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: they could do? I don't what does that? How could

1010
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: that be true? It's true because it's in my head.

1011
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: It's true. I mean, but I mean, but it's a

1012
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: it's a state, it's a state of way ow me.

1013
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: How does the federal government even because we're in the

1014
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: United States of America. I know, But they put the

1015
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: wolves up in Yellowstone. Didn't they ever think about the

1016
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: fact that they're gonna just migrate out of there? Yeah,

1017
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure they knew what they were gonna, know, somebody

1018
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: with a dream catcher. I thought it was a good idea.

1019
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: I hate wolves. I'm sorry. I'm a dog. I'm a

1020
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: dog guy. But wolves are dogs, I know. But they

1021
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: kill dogs. And come on, they kill a lot of dogs. No, yeah,

1022
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: they Okay, yeah, they'll kill some dogs, know what I'm saying.

1023
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: Come on about I still think it's fair, that's fine.

1024
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: I still love you. I still love you. I just

1025
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: think that's a wrong statement. Okay. I just wish we

1026
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't have meddled with it in the first place. Where

1027
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: could they be they'd be I don't know, there's a

1028
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of they would have probably Okay, they

1029
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: came into northern Montana, they would probably be down there anyway.

1030
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: I live in Michigan. Yeah, they would they came into Michigan.

1031
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: They didn't get reintroduced in the year home state, Your

1032
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: home states, Illinois. There's no reintroduction in Michigan. There's no

1033
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: reintroduction in Minnesota. There's no reintroduction Wisconsin. Why they came

1034
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: in on their own? Why are they only picking areas

1035
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: where the sports been used more ground and there's less

1036
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: they're putting wolves because those are areas that are suitable

1037
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: for wolves. Because one of the things that makes them

1038
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 1: suitable for wolves is like they don't get in trouble

1039
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: every five minutes. It's like, so we're gonna put something

1040
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: into this, and no one put it in there. They

1041
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: came in on their own. They were there. They were there. Okay,

1042
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: if you looked at at the time of at the

1043
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: time of Columbus's arrival in the West Indies, wolves were everywhere,

1044
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 1: right and they were in all the places we're discussing.

1045
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: They were extra pated for good reason. I don't know.

1046
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to put a value judgment at the

1047
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: time for what seemed like a very good reason. At

1048
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: the time, it seemed like a great reason. But I mean,

1049
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: people's mentality shift over time. But yeah, at the time,

1050
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: it was like here's the thing that competes for my interests,

1051
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: and and we, like all species are, are a selfish species.

1052
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: So now I think that the arguments focused on most places.

1053
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: You know, I made this play with grizzy bears. Grizzly

1054
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: bears were native from the Missouri very roughly from the

1055
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: Missouri River to the Pacific coast. No one's talking about

1056
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: that we need grizzlies in in park. Okay, well, yeah,

1057
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 1: there's if you're gonna pull Americans, or if you're gonna

1058
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: like get a bunch of ecologists together. They would say

1059
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: that the argument has has found its way into talking

1060
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: about ways where you have what might be defined by

1061
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: some as suitable habitat when they can come in and

1062
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: get a toe hold on their own, which is what

1063
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: we're seeing with mountain lions that are pushing east. No

1064
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: one's doing mountain lion re introduction reintroductions. They're they're they're

1065
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: doing it on their own, Okay, very effectively. Right now,

1066
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: Wolves in the Northern Great Lakes did it on their own,

1067
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: just crossing the ice and came down from Ontario northern

1068
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: Montana the same way here they some people came in,

1069
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: and maybe they now regret it, but they came in

1070
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: and sort of made a little jump and put them

1071
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: on a on a little island of land, and not

1072
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: an island, but an island of land that people in

1073
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: the US tend to. There's a thing I've identified recently

1074
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: is Yellowstone syndrome. It's what happens when the only thing

1075
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: you know about wildlife comes from Yellowstone Park. When you

1076
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: went to Yellowstone, your mom and dad, or ship you

1077
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: watched it was filmed in Yellowstone, and that's your entire

1078
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: idea of wilderness and wildlife. You know. The governor, you know,

1079
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: is one of the statements he always says, it's not

1080
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: that we don't like these things, but we are not

1081
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: a zoo. We live here, and I think that for us,

1082
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it comes back. There's a misconception

1083
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: that again the States somehow, if you, you know, hand

1084
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: these animals over the States, it's all gonna happen all

1085
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: over and they're gonna be gone. That's just not true.

1086
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: It's not it's not true because you would be because

1087
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: the hammer is over your head. You know. I think

1088
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: that I know you. I don't like that, and that's

1089
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: not that I don't really like the way I put it.

1090
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: But that's a factor, right it is. No, No, the

1091
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: I mean, the Endanger Species Act does some good things.

1092
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and argue that

1093
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: it's not maybe the most impact full federal law from

1094
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: a species protection standpoint out there. Uh No, I think

1095
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: it's a really strong case to be made that that

1096
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: is not working that well. Right, No, it's it's not,

1097
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: it's not, you know, I like to I would like

1098
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: to tell people I think the Endangered Species Act is

1099
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, think of it as a nice new car

1100
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: that you bought, you know, in nineteen seventy three, and

1101
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: it it's and you loved it, and you treated it,

1102
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: treated it well for a little while, and then you

1103
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: started neglecting it, and then it went through this horrible

1104
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: hail storm. So all the parts are the same, but

1105
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 1: it's it's been kind of messed up and it and

1106
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: it needs a little bit of work because I mean, frankly,

1107
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: the the hammer is not it's not necessarily a bad

1108
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: thing to have, uh to have at least, I don't

1109
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: want to use the word hammer. But you have the

1110
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: E s A out there, so it's a it's a motivator,

1111
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: you know. The SA is kind of a motivator. You

1112
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: want to do the right thing. Anyway, the e s

1113
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: A as a motivator to make sure you do the

1114
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: right thing because on a state's right standpoint, you don't

1115
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: want him to go back on the list. Um. And frankly,

1116
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: right now that with the way the e s A works,

1117
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: when things go on the list, they just don't come off.

1118
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: And so that's a pretty good that's a pretty good

1119
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: motivator to not want anything that you don't have on

1120
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: the list right now to get there, which is why

1121
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: we were so proactive with stage grouse, for example, and

1122
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: why the Midwestern states were so proactive with lesser prairie

1123
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: chicken um. And you're seeing a lot more proactive voluntary

1124
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: conservation efforts all over the country and particularly in the West,

1125
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: for species that aren't even listed yet to keep them

1126
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: from getting there. But we still have the problem of

1127
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: how do we get things like wolves and bears off

1128
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: the list when they've so obviously met these recovery criteria,

1129
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, how do we get them off the list?

1130
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: How do we get them back to state control? And

1131
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest hurdles right now is

1132
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: you have instead of instead of the s a being

1133
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: interpreted uh biologically, it's being interpreted socially and emotionally. Yeah,

1134
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: that's right. And you have a lot of judges now

1135
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: uh that that pull those social uh impacts or social

1136
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: thoughts into their decision making on what are really what

1137
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: really should be biological questions. Biologically, wolves have recovered in Wyoming, Biologically,

1138
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: grizzly bears have recovered in Wyoming. Socially, taking those off

1139
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 1: the list is frankly very unpopular outside of the inner

1140
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: inner Rocky Mountain West. Oh yeah, especially with grizzly bears.

1141
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: There's outside of the West, there's there is not a

1142
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 1: lot of support uh for delisting grizzly bears because of

1143
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: exactly what you said, this this Yellowstone syndrome. People think

1144
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: of grizzly bears in the greater Yellowstone area as the

1145
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: grizzly bears of Yellowstone, Golden gate Bridge. I mean people

1146
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: that that's you know, when you don't again, it's it's

1147
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: respecting the knowledge problem. Somebody who doesn't live in those

1148
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, in close proximity or or immerse themselves frequently

1149
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: in that just I mean, they really don't have a

1150
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: real idea of what it looks go. No, I don't

1151
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: know if they know they're in grizzly bear country. I mean,

1152
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: if they're country, but it makes them feel good and

1153
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: I respect this. You know, somebody who lives in New York,

1154
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, they want to feel like they want to

1155
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: feel like there's wild places that have bears someplace, and

1156
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: so hearing that somebody might take away it's hearing somebody

1157
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: might take away bear. I mean they mean you look outside,

1158
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: you know. I can imagine if if I lived in

1159
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: d C. There's nothing I don't want to except escape

1160
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: every weekend to Wyoming, so I can be in the mountains,

1161
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: you know, and people want to know that's there, and

1162
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: so they want that protected. But there's not a lot

1163
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: of you know, I think we all need to. I

1164
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: think we'd all agree there needs to be respect for

1165
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: the knowledge problem, which is that when you are removed

1166
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: from that thing, you're not right there with it. You

1167
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: gotta respect that the people who are on the ground

1168
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: who are managing that every day probably have a better

1169
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: idea than you the best way to management. So if

1170
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 1: you give them guidance, and that's what the SA is,

1171
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: that's what the clean wires react is. It's strong guidance.

1172
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: You gotta step back and let him work with it.

1173
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: You got to trust them to do that. And the

1174
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: challenge now, I think is that people aren't trusting states

1175
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: to make the final calls on those things. They're not

1176
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: trusting them to do the work that these acts allow

1177
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: them to do and put them in the position to

1178
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: be able to do. Instead, people who live miles away,

1179
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: who don't open their window and see that stream every

1180
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: day or see that bear, they want to make the

1181
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: calls and what's occurring with those things at the end

1182
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: of the day, even though they don't really know the way.

1183
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: Kind of my overall of you on it. A couple

1184
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: of things like I'm a firm believer in the scientific process,

1185
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: so I get a little bit uneasy when um things

1186
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: like what is it recovered species? What is an endangered species?

1187
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: Becomes the falls under the purview of just emotional decision

1188
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: making about what's my favorite animal or what animal do

1189
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: I like to look at the most, because I think

1190
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: that we have had if you look at the US

1191
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: in terms of our total population, our g MP, everything,

1192
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: it's um, it's kind of miraculous that we have the

1193
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: wildlife that we do like, no one's no, no other

1194
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: countries managed to even come close to what we've managed.

1195
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: And the way we've done it is by managing through

1196
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:16,439
Speaker 1: scientific like scientific pursuits. Okay, we we use biologists very well.

1197
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: We have systems in place by which we ascertain population levels,

1198
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: make decisions about what sort of harvest can be pulled

1199
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 1: from that in order to take into account everyone's needs

1200
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: from wildlife viewing the people who rely on wild meats

1201
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: for food to have, you know, to having like genetically

1202
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 1: viable populations, we've done a pretty fantastic job. I'm not

1203
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: saying when you compare it to like what your dream

1204
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: scenario is, but when you compare it to actual countries

1205
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: that around the actual earth, no one comes close. Now,

1206
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: A big part of that recipe of success, recipe for

1207
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: success has been state management of wild life. One could

1208
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: always go and look and look and say like, oh, yeah,

1209
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: but wolves went um wolves went extinct, So our wolves

1210
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: were extirpated from some of these states. So they haven't

1211
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: done a good job. But that problem was occurring before

1212
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: these places became a state. Elo Leopold has his you know,

1213
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: has his famous epiphany that he that he gives in

1214
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: san County Almanac, which occurs when he was down and

1215
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: I believe in New Mexico doing some wolf depredation. He

1216
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: was down in New Mexico, and New Mexico is a

1217
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 1: US territory killing wolves for the federal government. So when

1218
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: we're now look and want to blame states on past

1219
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: sins were oftentimes blame, it would be like me getting

1220
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: pissed at you about something your grandfather did. It is

1221
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: like a common thing that happens. The buffalo was driven

1222
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: to extinction when these were U S territories. It didn't

1223
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: happen under state management. So the idea of sort of

1224
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: like scientifically based state wildlife management agencies that came after

1225
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: the problems that these states are still trying to rectify

1226
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: when we have had the federal government come in and

1227
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: I would argue, different than some of the people in

1228
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: this room, for sure, the same as some of the

1229
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 1: people in this room, and different than some of them,

1230
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: I would argue that we do have an obligate that

1231
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: that it's a moral wrong to drive animals to extinction.

1232
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: At times, I think that the federal government has done

1233
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: It's just me talking, not defined David. I think the

1234
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: federal government has done. The kind of things that the

1235
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: federal government does well is stepping in with a lot

1236
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: of power and a lot of money and doing some

1237
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: big picture things to try to move things along. And

1238
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: I think that in some cases they've done good things

1239
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: in terms of wildlife, because I am the rare middle

1240
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: ground where I feel that we should have grizzly bears,

1241
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: we should have wolves, and they should be managed as

1242
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,439
Speaker 1: a renewable resource by the states which are white. Point

1243
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 1: out the state of Wyoming is right now and has

1244
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 1: been very successfully managing white tailed deer, mule deer, elk moose,

1245
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: black bears, mountain lions, big horn sheep, mountain goats. I

1246
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: said mountain lions, wrong, horn saiday, antelope didn't. I. Okay,

1247
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: we're not stage grouse. We're not trying something new here.

1248
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: People who worry about states management act like, oh my goodness,

1249
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: what's the state gonna do? But it's like they're already

1250
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:46,919
Speaker 1: doing all of that, So it's not outlandished to act

1251
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: like that that we would use the system that has

1252
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 1: served us very well in the modern age and not

1253
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: try to blame people and things that happened when they

1254
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 1: weren't even a state. Do you know who started all that. No,

1255
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: please tell me states the very first game laws. You know,

1256
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: when you had when you were losing passenger pigeons, when

1257
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: you were losing bison, when you were losing deer, uh, antelope,

1258
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 1: elk wasn't the federal government that came in and passed

1259
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of game laws to to build these populations

1260
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: back up as states first first white tailed deer laws came.

1261
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: I think they were in New York. Uh. Yeah. It

1262
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 1: was states responding to these types of activities that led

1263
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: to the development of the North American model you're talking about,

1264
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: and and led to the recovery of pronghorn from as

1265
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 1: few as twenty five thousand to now well over a million.

1266
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: I believe that we have in pronghorn, same thing with elk. Uh.

1267
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 1: You just go down the list of the species, the

1268
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: local territorial government. There was a guy trying to ban

1269
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 1: dynamite fishing for trout in Montana before the Little Big

1270
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: Horn massacre. At you point out the Custer lived to

1271
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: be older than Laramie. You know, I used to live

1272
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 1: right after Custar hit thirty seven. Larry died at thirty six.

1273
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: Larry may have died a better death. Oh dude, So

1274
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 1: we don't know, we know, we know, having to George Armstrong.

1275
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,719
Speaker 1: So but that's my take on it. It's and it's like, yeah,

1276
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 1: I just feel like there's a there's a misconception with

1277
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: people who live outside of wilderness state. Let's just I

1278
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,679
Speaker 1: don't know, like states, a lot of wildlife wilderness states,

1279
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: is that they want to look and be like, like,

1280
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: you come from a state where everything's destroyed. You know,

1281
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: your your native wildlife is not intact. It has no

1282
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,600
Speaker 1: chance of even being attacked. No one's even having a

1283
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: conversation about putting wolves back into Maryland. Like it's not

1284
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:57,600
Speaker 1: even on anyone's radar. It can't even be approached conversationally.

1285
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,839
Speaker 1: So but you want look and say that I wouldn't

1286
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 1: want that to happen here because you know, but out

1287
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: there those people that still have intact mega fauno and

1288
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: they have all of their species running around. And in

1289
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: the case of Wyoming, that has like what is mathematically

1290
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: regarded as the most remote area in the lower forty

1291
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 1: eight United States. And I'm giving a hint and he's

1292
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: already named it. Just remember, if you want to hunt

1293
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: wilderness in Wyoming, you have to have a guide. Yeah,

1294
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 1: if you're from out of states, if you call wilderness

1295
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 1: getting far away from the road, Wyoming has the biggest

1296
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 1: piece of wilderness in lower forty eight. So why is

1297
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:46,639
Speaker 1: the state villainized in the outside perspective as being they

1298
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 1: can't Oh, they're gonna mess it up. It's like based

1299
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: compared to what compared to who? Well and one other point,

1300
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 1: so we have you mentioned before species on the endangered

1301
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: species list, Wyoming this most state with all the wilderness

1302
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: and the most most remote place. I think of those

1303
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,600
Speaker 1: dred we have twelve, and and some of them are

1304
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: shared by other states, and some of them are plants species,

1305
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: and a couple of them we think are recovered in

1306
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 1: Chica that we've been talking about. Off that list, that's

1307
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: pretty solid. We have got the tenth largest state by

1308
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: area in the country, and we have twelve. I couldn't

1309
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: tell you, but I can tell you Hawaii has almost

1310
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: five hundred. I can tell you California has three hundred

1311
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 1: and fifty something like that. Uh. You know, those those

1312
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: two states combined have something like a third of all

1313
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 1: listed species. Uh. Wyoming has twelve. Uh. You go to

1314
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 1: places and that's an it's an aspect of this that

1315
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 1: boggles my mind where you think that more people would

1316
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: look and it would be like, what are those boys doing.

1317
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of like like economic factors

1318
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: that I don't want to simplified. There's a ton of

1319
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 1: economic factors. But I also think that it's like as

1320
01:11:54,800 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 1: far as finding a way to balance human needs, you

1321
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: guys have good spending on public schools relative to other states.

1322
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: I feel I don't live in Wilming, but I feel

1323
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: bad for I feel bad for you guys on the

1324
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: grizzly issue, and I feel bad for you guys on

1325
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: the wolf fish. We appreciate that doesn't change your sympathy. Yeah,

1326
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,680
Speaker 1: but no, you're right, You're right. I mean, it's uh,

1327
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 1: it's a frustrating place to be where we feel like

1328
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 1: we can we can point to example after example of

1329
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: example of what we do right and how we do

1330
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 1: balance all of the competing needs in the state and

1331
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 1: what happens. People come from all over the country and

1332
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,759
Speaker 1: all over the world to view our wildlife. Our tourism

1333
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,760
Speaker 1: is our second largest industry. And they're not coming here

1334
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: to look at an oil rig or a coal mine.

1335
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: They're coming here because of our wild life. Yet somehow

1336
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:59,600
Speaker 1: we can't be trusted to manage two species of wildlife

1337
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: that we have shown and for grizzly bear, for example,

1338
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: we've been the boots on the ground the past forty years.

1339
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: It's been the State of Wyoming that's been leading the

1340
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 1: charge on recovering grizzly bears. Yet we're not trusted that

1341
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: we can then do it once they're delisted, that will

1342
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: continue uh to manage these once they're delisted. It's it's

1343
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: a very frustrating thing, uh, to to have folks that

1344
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: don't live here, that have never been here tell us

1345
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 1: what we are and are not capable of, when they

1346
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: don't really understand what we do and what we've done. Yeah, man,

1347
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: any concluding thoughts, I just want to talk about Dave's rifle.

1348
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:46,639
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. They they you're you're you're hunting luddite. Oh yeah.

1349
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: Dave was saying, if you wanted to get to a

1350
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: four yard shot, you'd have to add up how many

1351
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: of the last about about probably probably four or five

1352
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: maybe more no nos. To get to a one yard shot,

1353
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: you have to add up probably the last three elk

1354
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: I've killed to get to this. Man like, honestly, he

1355
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: deserves some kind of a trophy. So if people are

1356
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 1: out there, please I mean, I'm not I don't know

1357
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 1: whether you should idolize him or you know, but man,

1358
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: my goodness, this guy is gun he's shooting a gunnygout

1359
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 1: and he's fourteen years old. And while I wanted in

1360
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 1: a raffle, actually my dad wanted in a raffle and

1361
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 1: gave it to me. Still shooting a hand me down.

1362
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, shoulder strap broke. I hold it together

1363
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: with a zip tie. I carry extras in my pack.

1364
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: So is it like but is this like, are you

1365
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 1: making a point I don't about, honey, or is it

1366
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: just like a general like life view you have about

1367
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 1: If it's like that, you just have you have respect

1368
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 1: for things that functioned, and yeah, you know you not

1369
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 1: what you don't want to take part in the disposable.

1370
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 1: I mean I I've killed a lot of animals with

1371
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: that gun and and the other things that I use. Uh,

1372
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: I mean I I have a seventy dollar scope on it.

1373
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: You don't need a scope when you're up putting the

1374
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 1: rifle right in there side. She got a hole and

1375
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:08,679
Speaker 1: I'm a little cheap I'm a little cheap. That's the fact. Okay, okay.

1376
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 1: So it's the hunting thing, if you had to pick

1377
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 1: a word, it's a hunting thing like sort of um

1378
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 1: like the hunting gear thing, reverence for sort of objects

1379
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 1: that are around in your life you'd like to have.

1380
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: Continuity is the us that you hate to spend money.

1381
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: So it's a combination. But my wife would tell me

1382
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 1: it's the latter. Yeah, she'll tell you I'm the cheapest person.

1383
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,959
Speaker 1: She knows. Part of it is there's a sentimental attachment

1384
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 1: to some of the stuff I've got, you know, and

1385
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 1: it takes me back to when I was a kid

1386
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: hunting with my dad. I still wear I got My

1387
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: dad bought me a vest when I started hunting in Wyoming,

1388
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: an orange vest reversible you know, sold you Yeah, that's what. Yeah,

1389
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:55,120
Speaker 1: thirty seven, I still wear that same vest. Uh. Zipper

1390
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: doesn't work. Uh oh the zipper broke ten years ago.

1391
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 1: Uh it's I mean, it's all it's faded. It's it's

1392
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: like a worn traffic cone instead of you know, bright orange. Uh.

1393
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 1: Is that legal? Probably? Not. Yani got remanded. Yanni got reprimanded.

1394
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: He got he got reprimanded. Not fined but reprimanded for

1395
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 1: his orange being a little too old. What state were you?

1396
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 1: I think Brody might have actually been with Remember it

1397
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: was his hat, his hat. The guy was like, you know,

1398
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 1: next year, Toy said, yeah, He's like, next year it

1399
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: might be too bad. Something like that. We might be

1400
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:38,560
Speaker 1: talking about, right. Um, a guy there's a there's a

1401
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: friend of mine, Robert Abernathy. He's a big turkey hunter

1402
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 1: and he uses really old stuff. But it's kind of

1403
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: to him. It be sort of became. Um it's large

1404
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:53,560
Speaker 1: response to like disposable culture. It's like it's like a

1405
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 1: person of rebellion against this idea that that you just

1406
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 1: that you just need. You know, I don't have that problem.

1407
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 1: I'm like fixated that I love that kind of stuff.

1408
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 1: I like checking stuff out. You know, I would love things.

1409
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: So I think it's because I'm so cheap. I would

1410
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 1: love if people would buy me a bunch of stuff,

1411
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: I'd probably use it. But like my backpack, the pack

1412
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: I've used for the past ten years. It was my

1413
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 1: computer bag in law school. I just repurposed it. It's

1414
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 1: now it's now my hunting my tape. Yeah, unt together,

1415
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,880
Speaker 1: this is why it just doesn't work. Yeah, I saw

1416
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:33,600
Speaker 1: you don't hunt the part that holds the laptop. I

1417
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 1: just that's where I put my knives in my Uh.

1418
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm the opposite into the spectrum. I don't have a

1419
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: lot of time, so I'll drink. I'll drink a pumpkin.

1420
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,719
Speaker 1: I'll refill it when it's done with a two later bottle.

1421
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm the cheapest guy. My friend I have a I

1422
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:53,680
Speaker 1: guess he's kind of a friend. There's a there's a

1423
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: person I used to me friends with, and she married

1424
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 1: this dude named Chris. And I saw a hunting picture

1425
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 1: for Chris had really old, old little hunting clothes on,

1426
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 1: and I, because of my occupation and whatnot, I tend

1427
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: to have a lot of hunting clothes laying around. And

1428
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 1: I asked her. I said, hey, I noticed that Chris

1429
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: is you know, threads are looking a little thin. Would

1430
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: he is he making a point? Or would he like

1431
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: me to send him over a box studs? And she

1432
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 1: pointed out that he's making She's not entirely sure what

1433
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 1: it is, but he's making some sort of point. Hey,

1434
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 1: this gets worse for Dave. I mean, this is the

1435
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 1: sad thing about David. This is a guy who's the

1436
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: lead attorney for game and Fish right? I mean for

1437
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,120
Speaker 1: years he's on the like the team for Safari Club.

1438
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:39,840
Speaker 1: Where's your fathering in my work, Dave? I won't go

1439
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: into that. I don't want to pimp product, but you

1440
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: know at that point that you know that suggested me

1441
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 1: he's harboring a drug and alcohol gambling problem and that's

1442
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: where all this money is gone. So that's your same best.

1443
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 1: That's my best. Slide through a couple of pictures there,

1444
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: he'll see me go, He'll see it go through time

1445
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: really see you know, you know, the wrong going the

1446
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:12,720
Speaker 1: wrong way, go the other way? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll

1447
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,080
Speaker 1: see some other pictures pop up. I think my concern

1448
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 1: is what's like like, I have tons of respect for

1449
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 1: the man's game, but he's gonna teach some hunter is

1450
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:24,839
Speaker 1: going to see this and think that's what you're supposed

1451
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 1: to do. You have a lot of people out there

1452
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:31,640
Speaker 1: with hypothermia. You're gonna have. I like it, though, I

1453
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:33,600
Speaker 1: must say, yeah, I can't say I'm gonna start doing that,

1454
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: but I do appreciate it. But I was hoping you're

1455
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 1: gonna hit me some some real philosophical stuff. I got

1456
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 1: no I'm just, I'm just, but this man has a

1457
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: whole warrant to the bottom with Yeah. I mean, yeah,

1458
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,280
Speaker 1: it's it's true, it's true. But I mean there is

1459
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 1: some philosophical more sentimentality philosophy. You know. It's a lot

1460
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: of the stuff that I hunt with, the stuff that

1461
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:00,160
Speaker 1: my dad gave me. Uh, you know when I art

1462
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 1: a hunting and an extent I can still use it.

1463
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,840
Speaker 1: That means a lot because it makes me remember those moments.

1464
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 1: And yeah, but vest I have he had, he had

1465
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 1: the same that it fits. It fits. You still have

1466
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,599
Speaker 1: a boyish you still have a boyish frame. Yeah, thanks

1467
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:23,439
Speaker 1: for that. I thought about this a lot with a

1468
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 1: guy we worked with, one of the camera guys who

1469
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 1: worked with working on a totally unrelated project in Africa,

1470
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:33,479
Speaker 1: and he comes out and huntled us. So he also

1471
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:35,840
Speaker 1: he's like in the jungle, having nothing to do with

1472
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 1: hunting at all, but he's filming in Africa, and some

1473
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 1: shots ring out in the in the brush and he's like,

1474
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 1: that's a familiar sound. And out of the woods steps

1475
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:50,599
Speaker 1: of a fella. Hold in no shirt, paar of shorts,

1476
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:55,840
Speaker 1: pair of flip flops, a shotgun, no bag or bag.

1477
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 1: They we forget a backpack like nothing but a gun,

1478
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 1: and he's got a big brush buck over his shoulder.

1479
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,160
Speaker 1: And I did look at that, and I'm like, where

1480
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: have we gone that? This guy he's got like a

1481
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:15,519
Speaker 1: pocketful of shells and goes out and I don't just

1482
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 1: dripping with gear, and I'm like stepping back in time

1483
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 1: for twenty years with my gear. But I get stuff

1484
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: every you know, every year, we can. You can do

1485
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: it both ways. You're more comfortable than I am because

1486
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: I've taken it upon myself. That's that's all relative. Man.

1487
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 1: I feel like when you when people say like, uh oh,

1488
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, um mountain men were were so tough. I

1489
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 1: feel that this is the theory amount of pet theory

1490
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 1: of mine. I feel like they were just about as

1491
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 1: comfortable as we are there. I feel like their perception

1492
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:55,440
Speaker 1: of comfort, like at any given moment, the relative perception

1493
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 1: of comfort, probably put their comfort right about where we

1494
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: think of our comfort. That's probably true. But I'll bet

1495
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 1: if I put on your rank gear, I'd be more

1496
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,759
Speaker 1: comfortable in a rainstorm than when I wear my arms

1497
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:10,320
Speaker 1: never had but you've only been wearing But because you've

1498
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 1: only been wearing garbage bags, your whole life. You don't know. Now,

1499
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,479
Speaker 1: if you took my stuff away from me and gave

1500
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 1: me your stuff, I'd be uncomfortable because relative to my

1501
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: normal understanding of what I feel like, right, I think

1502
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 1: I think that discomfort Here's what I'm trying to say.

1503
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 1: I think the discomfort is always just sort of like

1504
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,719
Speaker 1: what's your baseline, like what are you what? What comfort

1505
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,639
Speaker 1: are you used to and where are you at compared

1506
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,680
Speaker 1: to that. You know, if every day when you woke up,

1507
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 1: the first idea was hit your hand with a hammer

1508
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 1: right over time, your idea of how uncomfortable that is

1509
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: is gonna slowly change. Earlier, ask your concluding thought. Dave

1510
01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 1: has an old gun. Every listening to Steve, he's talking

1511
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,679
Speaker 1: about how he went to bomb Tana so to could

1512
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 1: go to school, so he could go someplace where this

1513
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,600
Speaker 1: big game. I just want you to know, reminder, we

1514
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:13,080
Speaker 1: are sitting at the highest altitude college football stadium in

1515
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 1: the nation. If you want place to go to school

1516
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:17,599
Speaker 1: where you can go out and hunt elk on the weekend,

1517
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: you need to consider that it was it was just

1518
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:23,760
Speaker 1: half a chance that I went there, not not quite,

1519
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,720
Speaker 1: but I didn't know one thing from the other I was,

1520
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,120
Speaker 1: I had got accepted kids to make that same mistake, Steve.

1521
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: I got accepted grad school in Colorado, and I got

1522
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 1: accepted at c s U, and I got accepted to

1523
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: graduate University of Montana, and I had a full ride

1524
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 1: at Colorado, and I had to pay at University Montana

1525
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: take out loans. I was clearly gonna go where I

1526
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,720
Speaker 1: had a full ride. I met my friend, the late

1527
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 1: buddy mind Eric Kern and bow Nicky's Bar. Eric Kern

1528
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 1: had just come he was doing his PhD program in Montana.

1529
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 1: We went at bow Nicky's bar. He goes right around

1530
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: the time that O. J. Simpson was was driving his

1531
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 1: Bronco down the road with the helicopters over him, and

1532
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,559
Speaker 1: everything is right around then it might even do that night.

1533
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:16,639
Speaker 1: And he he swayed me just based on his knowledge

1534
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 1: of hunting and fishing in southwest Montana compared to the

1535
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing he was hearing about from his buddy

1536
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: in Colorado. So I'm like, you know what, that's all

1537
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 1: I needed to hear. I'm gonna switch and told him no,

1538
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 1: told turn down the thing there and went here. I

1539
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,040
Speaker 1: now say I used to always say like I'll wind

1540
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 1: up back there, I now say, I will. I like

1541
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: if when people like if you can move anywhere and

1542
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:46,560
Speaker 1: you didn't have to deal with the things that you

1543
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:50,639
Speaker 1: deal with work, family. Um, I've now switched it where

1544
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:53,439
Speaker 1: I say here. Well, that's the right answer. You say Wyoming.

1545
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 1: That's that's what I now think and say, so I

1546
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:00,200
Speaker 1: knowing that story and that Wyoming wasn't one of two

1547
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 1: choices you made totally arbitrary, as totally but as a

1548
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 1: as a University of Wyoming alumnus, myself and and CS

1549
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:12,280
Speaker 1: Colorado State is a is a one of our principal rivals.

1550
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 1: I think you made the absolute right call to go

1551
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:18,599
Speaker 1: to Montana rather entangled. You don't want to, you don't

1552
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 1: want to end up there. The better choice obviously would

1553
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: have been Wyoming. At least at least you got yourself

1554
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,439
Speaker 1: a good education by going to Montana. But feeling the

1555
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 1: Colorado love, I never felt Colorado love from you. John

1556
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 1: Denver ruined it for me. I feel like John who

1557
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:36,840
Speaker 1: stay at John Denver store. I was working in Grand

1558
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:40,840
Speaker 1: Teton National Park and there's this place called Dornan's just

1559
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:44,560
Speaker 1: north of Jackson on the border a Grand Teetow and

1560
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: they used to have a hoot in any of there.

1561
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:49,519
Speaker 1: And John Denver showed up one time, just hammered and

1562
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 1: sang for the the whole player. That's what happens when

1563
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: magic happens. Not long before he wrecked is playing. Yeah, Yeah,

1564
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of Colorado love. I've never

1565
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 1: falt it. I'll tell you where it comes from. Um,

1566
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 1: this is one of the main things the someone was

1567
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:12,000
Speaker 1: explaining to me, Like the day that uh, sort of

1568
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:16,040
Speaker 1: like the day the Denver and Fort Collins became one

1569
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 1: city became you know, the day that they all of

1570
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,800
Speaker 1: a sudden constituted like fifty one percent of the state's population.

1571
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 1: You lost for bear management. Well and and yeah, and

1572
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:33,639
Speaker 1: I've always just had it's always just such a bad things,

1573
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: the bear thing, the ref bear referendum. Yeah, it's like

1574
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: you have the people least likely to be dealing with critters. Um,

1575
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a California feel, Yeah, mandating to

1576
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,559
Speaker 1: the people most likely to be dealing with critters about

1577
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,679
Speaker 1: how they should go about dealing with those critters. Kind

1578
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 1: to say, I thankful for the companies like Magpole and

1579
01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: Hives and thunderbe Storms who who made the smart decision

1580
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 1: to move across the border Wyoming. And for the rest

1581
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:05,040
Speaker 1: of you who are still in Colorado, the doors are openly.

1582
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:09,160
Speaker 1: Come on, why don't you tell him to stay out? Okay,

1583
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 1: you gotta work for this. I would say that I state,

1584
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 1: like Montana is in danger of the same thing. Oh yeah,

1585
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 1: it will happen in my lifetime. I'll be time. But

1586
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:21,879
Speaker 1: oh yeah, man, when I used to hang out Montana,

1587
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: I remember when. No, it'll be yeah, I think yeah,

1588
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:28,840
Speaker 1: I think that you know, Bowsman will become Denver. Yeah,

1589
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: is that your concluding thought? Yeah? I want more color

1590
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: more Colorado love from you, especially start especially in like

1591
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 1: a month and a half. If I have a good

1592
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 1: hunt down there. The last time I hunted in Colorado,

1593
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 1: um my goodness, I think that wasn't Colorado, Dude, that

1594
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:50,559
Speaker 1: was not Colorado's fault at all. You have a bad

1595
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:54,559
Speaker 1: hunt anywhere. I don't know, Man, talk to you after

1596
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 1: this weekend. I think you're gonna have a hard time here. Really,

1597
01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 1: they're all great, Dave, including thoughts. Uh, you know what? Uh?

1598
01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 1: One one thing I maybe I have to one. I

1599
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 1: really do want to thank the university owing for letting

1600
01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 1: us use this place. Uh, so this is the best location.

1601
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's great. Uh. But second thing I want

1602
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:16,720
Speaker 1: to I want to thank you Steve for uh, you

1603
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 1: know that article you wrote in the New York Times

1604
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:22,799
Speaker 1: and Grizzly Bears. Uh. You know, we needed a voice

1605
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: like that, you know, to talk about how important it is,

1606
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 1: uh to recognize that there are other people in this

1607
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:34,000
Speaker 1: country that are trying to manage species and that it

1608
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 1: can be done the right way, and that we're doing

1609
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 1: it the right way. And I guess my take home messages.

1610
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I really think uh states in the West

1611
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: are trying to do what right by wildlife. Uh and

1612
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:50,600
Speaker 1: and you know, regardless of whether they're listed species or not.

1613
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:54,680
Speaker 1: And uh, I'm just it's a great place to be

1614
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:58,439
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, appreciate you having us here and

1615
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 1: and thanks for taking up in interest in in some

1616
01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: of these wyoming issues because it's they're becoming national issues.

1617
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:09,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, No, I'm watching you guys because I

1618
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:12,560
Speaker 1: like to watch the states that have the most to

1619
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,519
Speaker 1: lose when it comes to wildlife rather than the states

1620
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 1: that are sitting on something where they're never I mean,

1621
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 1: it's just where it's unfathomable that they're ever going to

1622
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 1: put it back together again. This is where the this

1623
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: is where the interesting stuff is taking place in my

1624
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:28,679
Speaker 1: mind here in a handful of other players. It's not color.

1625
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 1: I don't have a concluding thought. I've have a concluding

1626
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:38,559
Speaker 1: question for you guys. Maybe you can make me feel

1627
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: better about it as a non resident hunter and it

1628
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 1: might want to come to Wyoming. Very good, very good point.

1629
01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:47,800
Speaker 1: What can I won't even ask you guys, can just

1630
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:52,320
Speaker 1: answer it the question why? Why? Why is it that way?

1631
01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 1: What's the question? Are you talking wilderness? Break it down?

1632
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:00,599
Speaker 1: You honest? Well, I don't know if I break it down.

1633
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,559
Speaker 1: But as far as I understand, in Wyoming, to hunt

1634
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:07,920
Speaker 1: wilderness is a nonresident for big game, all game hunt

1635
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:14,799
Speaker 1: hunt wilderness. Now camping wilderness? Can camp? Can't even upland

1636
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: birds can't. Can't. You have to be have a registered

1637
01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 1: guide or it doesn't have to it doesn't so you

1638
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:25,839
Speaker 1: have to have an outfit or guide or Wyoming resident

1639
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:30,800
Speaker 1: uh with you resident guide? Yeah, that's something I loves.

1640
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 1: You don't understand. If you've got a buddy, yeah, you're good.

1641
01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 1: If you know Dave Alaska, does you don't mind hunting

1642
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: dark timber with no skill. No, no, no, they have

1643
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:45,519
Speaker 1: some seri for some species that Alaska has some species

1644
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: you have to be a guide or a relative like

1645
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: grizzly bear relative, big horn sheep. But you could. You

1646
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:56,720
Speaker 1: could take me hunting in a wilderness as long as

1647
01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 1: I don't charge because I'm not I'm not a licensed guide,

1648
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:01,560
Speaker 1: so I can't charge you for it. But yeah, I

1649
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 1: could take fIF he won't spend it. Wyoming doesn't have

1650
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:13,880
Speaker 1: that requirement. You know. Here it's so you know, you

1651
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:15,840
Speaker 1: can get around the whole thing, not get around to

1652
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 1: get around the wrong way to put it. If if,

1653
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:22,240
Speaker 1: if you're worth a Wyoming resident, you can hunt wilderness. Yeah,

1654
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:24,479
Speaker 1: called haven't go out with you. I mean it's all

1655
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:26,400
Speaker 1: it takes. You're not you're not kidding me or something. No, no,

1656
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 1: you gotta have Wyoming resident. And you know they can't

1657
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:32,320
Speaker 1: be you can't be charged. They can't be charging you

1658
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 1: as an out. But they could be hunting to the

1659
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 1: count justly. You know, there's not guys not doing for profit.

1660
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 1: It's like, if you got a buddy that lives in Wyoming,

1661
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 1: you want to go hunt Wyoming. People do that all

1662
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 1: the time. Her friend comes over and again that's just wilderness, right,

1663
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 1: and there are some fantastic herres here. Don't overlook. For

1664
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:49,879
Speaker 1: those of you who are looking at hunting in Wyoming,

1665
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 1: Wyoming has wilderness like locations that are not wilderness. So

1666
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,479
Speaker 1: when you're looking at places like I don't want when

1667
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 1: like Capital w it has to be desert. Literally. I mean,

1668
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 1: there are a lot of there's a lot of general

1669
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:08,599
Speaker 1: hunt areas here that are absolutely phenomenal, and I don't

1670
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 1: want to tell you where they are, but come find them,

1671
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: all right, And can you just explain maybe like what's

1672
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 1: the what's the thinking what you know without going into

1673
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,760
Speaker 1: too much detail. I mean it's probably and I can't.

1674
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 1: I don't know the whole history of it, but Mike,

1675
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 1: this is my best guess. It's a way to protecting

1676
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:34,640
Speaker 1: an industry, to to protect outfit their jobs and and

1677
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 1: in all fairness, the offer is the other issue too.

1678
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:38,519
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, let's say I am going into

1679
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to the thoroughfare next week to

1680
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 1: hunt elk, but I'm going to another wilderness area. So

1681
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:48,799
Speaker 1: honestly those areas you know I'm going, I'm going sixteen

1682
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: miles back up into a place where I literally am

1683
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 1: going to see couple bears every day, and you know

1684
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:57,680
Speaker 1: that's not a place to mess around with just you know,

1685
01:32:57,800 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 1: driving and being like, hey, you know what I'm gonna do.

1686
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna wander up into that. Yeah. But but

1687
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 1: that that that argument loses me because you could live

1688
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:07,400
Speaker 1: on the Idaho side of the border and spend your

1689
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:09,719
Speaker 1: whole life hunting in wilderness or in the back country

1690
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 1: in Idaho, and then the second you step in Wyoming

1691
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: you said you're not qualified. You gotta have a you

1692
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:18,400
Speaker 1: gotta have a guide. They're gonna be exceptions people in Wyoming. Yeah,

1693
01:33:18,439 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: but you have to give him some kind of test.

1694
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 1: I always saw, like in Alaska, the things you can't

1695
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 1: hunt without it, you have to have a relative or

1696
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: an outfitter. Are the things that happened to be the

1697
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: things you could get yourself in most troubling. Um, mountain gools,

1698
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 1: dollarshep grizzy beards, like the things you like, the things

1699
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,320
Speaker 1: people are most likely to get tore up doing. Um,

1700
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 1: you need to have that. I don't. I don't. I

1701
01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 1: don't know that that's the case. It could be to

1702
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 1: protect outfitting jobs, but there's a help A lot of

1703
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: moose outfitters and you can hunt moose it out of guy. Yeah,

1704
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 1: But isn't there some there's some I've heard some rumors

1705
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: that in Alaska they're looking at that for moose. Oh,

1706
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: there's some big stuff happen there for big implications because

1707
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:03,320
Speaker 1: as a dude with a with a brother who lives

1708
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 1: in Alaska, Um, they're The Other thing they're changing up

1709
01:34:08,040 --> 01:34:12,880
Speaker 1: is if I'm hunting with him on for for the

1710
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 1: things that I need that he needs to be there

1711
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 1: in order for me to hunt, it counts on my kill,

1712
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 1: counts on his bag limit. So it used to be

1713
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:24,120
Speaker 1: we could go sheep, we could go hunt doll sheep together.

1714
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 1: Now if I kill one, that's his doll sheep, so

1715
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 1: that goes into effect between now in two thousand eighteen.

1716
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 1: But if it's but if you so, then if you

1717
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:37,160
Speaker 1: hire a guide, it doesn't you don't know it's the

1718
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:38,960
Speaker 1: only one you're doing the first it's only one you're

1719
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:40,640
Speaker 1: in the family hunt. So is that a is that

1720
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:44,920
Speaker 1: a protective law as well? Industry protection law? Uh? Danny

1721
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:46,840
Speaker 1: was pointing out to me that there's a the the

1722
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:51,960
Speaker 1: the the doll sheep take and you know it's a

1723
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 1: finite resource and the preponderance of dolls, sheep killing Alaska

1724
01:34:56,560 --> 01:35:01,640
Speaker 1: killed by non residents. So they're they're they're doing some

1725
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: things to um. You know, all states just for for listeners,

1726
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:10,479
Speaker 1: you know, all states tend to not tend to all

1727
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:13,519
Speaker 1: states are gonna give priority to wildlife resources to residents

1728
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:16,240
Speaker 1: its state managed just stands the reason they're gonna give

1729
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:20,840
Speaker 1: preference to their own residents. Um. You know, sometimes like

1730
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 1: if you're gonna hunt elk or let's say you're gonna

1731
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 1: ut white tailed deer in Michigan on a resident tag,

1732
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 1: you know it's twelve bucks or whatever. You're gonna hunt deer,

1733
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,719
Speaker 1: there's a non resid you're gonna pay two hundred fifty dollars.

1734
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 1: So you generally, for your people in your state, UM,

1735
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:39,320
Speaker 1: you give them a readier, less expensive access to renewable resources,

1736
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: and then people from out of state are gonna pay

1737
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 1: a little more moreting help bankroll the whole thing. It

1738
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 1: applies the lower place, uh it gets, it starts to

1739
01:35:48,120 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: seem most severe in destination states, you know, um, Colorado, Montana, well,

1740
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 1: you know all the western states, Alaska like place where

1741
01:35:56,520 --> 01:35:59,599
Speaker 1: people want to dream of go hunt. Sometimes they're often

1742
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:03,120
Speaker 1: have sticker shock because they've been buying resident licenses for

1743
01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 1: their whole life. My brother will ask you, you don't

1744
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 1: pay You don't pay for tags for the most part,

1745
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:12,360
Speaker 1: A residents don't pay for tax you buy a hunting license. Yeah,

1746
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:15,840
Speaker 1: they're doubling all nonresident tag fees. I am going to

1747
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:19,439
Speaker 1: disagree with Dave on this issue just because, honestly think

1748
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:21,599
Speaker 1: you know, if most people were like your honest we're

1749
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:23,080
Speaker 1: like you, Stephen, they were coming here to hunt in

1750
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:26,920
Speaker 1: the wilderness, wouldn't be an issue. No, But most people aren't.

1751
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 1: I mean, disagree with me on that one. Most guys

1752
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 1: who come out here for the first time and drive

1753
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 1: out from Wisconsin to go hunt ILK Like, I'm not

1754
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: sure you want those guys first time, you know, in

1755
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 1: the wilderness with nothing but a total map. And that's

1756
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:41,560
Speaker 1: just you know, this is all theory. I feel you

1757
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 1: can get his dream amount of trouble though. Chunkm yeah, yeah, alright, road,

1758
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:51,880
Speaker 1: let's move on. Um, you know, before we move on,

1759
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:56,560
Speaker 1: I want to make a point. Federally designated wilderness is

1760
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:01,479
Speaker 1: one of those cases where I feel that the FEDS

1761
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:06,400
Speaker 1: did what was right. I don't know to talk about

1762
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:13,559
Speaker 1: had your last thought. I agree this is not over Steve. No, well,

1763
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 1: I would love to hear your take on it. I

1764
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:18,000
Speaker 1: hate to drop a big bombshell on you like that

1765
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:24,040
Speaker 1: after you had I'll just say done correctly, you're right,

1766
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: but done correctly, you're right? Okay, Well, yeah, that's what

1767
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:30,920
Speaker 1: I would say too. Now that's where we might define

1768
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:32,760
Speaker 1: that differently. But yeah, I think that we're on the

1769
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:35,800
Speaker 1: same page. Was that your deal? You had a concluding question? So,

1770
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 1: just to clarify, federally designated wilderness stayed Wyloming. You gotta

1771
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:45,000
Speaker 1: have a guy to be with a guy from Wyoming, correct,

1772
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:50,559
Speaker 1: And you guys have some serious bad country wilderness. Yeah, yeah,

1773
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:52,759
Speaker 1: we do. We've got some of the biggest in the country,

1774
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:55,760
Speaker 1: at least in the lower forty eight Ron, what's your

1775
01:37:55,800 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 1: concluding thought? You have an anti federalist rant. Have you

1776
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:02,760
Speaker 1: lost a dog to wolf? Do you have any friends?

1777
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 1: I have? I have had dogs. I had acquaintances, not

1778
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:10,000
Speaker 1: friends like you and me friends or what beagles and

1779
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 1: coon dog guys and and bear dog guys. So here's

1780
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 1: my concluding thought. Cars, I love you. I guarantee they've

1781
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:22,360
Speaker 1: lost some dogs. Cars, I love you. I hate bears.

1782
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:27,600
Speaker 1: I love dogs. I'm going on online. I love you,

1783
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:31,240
Speaker 1: I hate bears. I love dogs, I hate wolves. I

1784
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:35,840
Speaker 1: love everybody here. And this has just been a silly

1785
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:39,479
Speaker 1: ass podcast because you're all on the same side. You

1786
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:41,799
Speaker 1: need to get somebody out here from the other side.

1787
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:44,080
Speaker 1: So like we should have been asking you more questions

1788
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:52,840
Speaker 1: because exactly but you're you have the only viewpoint here

1789
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:57,240
Speaker 1: that I think is illegitimate. I've known you since you're

1790
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. You and I have never agreed on

1791
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:05,360
Speaker 1: anything except we're like arguing about stuff forever. That's fair.

1792
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna end the future. I'm gonna vite you back on.

1793
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:11,439
Speaker 1: I want you to do some preparation. I want you

1794
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:15,400
Speaker 1: to come in. You convince me. You convince me that

1795
01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:19,719
Speaker 1: we should hate bears. Not bad to say bears. Yeah, wolves.

1796
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:24,360
Speaker 1: Grizzly bears were the ones I'm scared of. Two black

1797
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: bears up in my porch up at the cabin this

1798
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:29,479
Speaker 1: month there last month with you, So I don't hate

1799
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 1: black bears. That scared of them. Yeah, that's sure. You

1800
01:39:31,880 --> 01:39:34,000
Speaker 1: did almost ski yet we left stocked right up on

1801
01:39:34,080 --> 01:39:38,679
Speaker 1: my bottom of my sleeping bag. But no grizzly bears. Wolves.

1802
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:41,160
Speaker 1: I don't like them. Sorry, I'm a dog guy, small

1803
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:44,760
Speaker 1: game hunter. You know. Here's my concluding thought. That wasn't it?

1804
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:47,680
Speaker 1: I'm working into Well, I haven't talked for an hour

1805
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 1: and a half. I take two beers. I can't smoke now.

1806
01:39:51,080 --> 01:39:54,559
Speaker 1: Finally I get how do you want to cut me off?

1807
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:58,960
Speaker 1: All right? I find you know, I listened to a

1808
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:01,280
Speaker 1: lot of podcasts listening your podcasts, been listening to a

1809
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 1: few years. I got my own podcast, and I feel

1810
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:07,080
Speaker 1: like they talk about the dividing line between high fence

1811
01:40:07,160 --> 01:40:10,320
Speaker 1: hunters and wild hunter you know, wild game hunters and

1812
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:12,920
Speaker 1: out east and out west. That to me is the

1813
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 1: biggest dividing line ever Western hunters versus Eastern hunters. When

1814
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:22,400
Speaker 1: when I hear the podcast from all I hear about

1815
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:25,840
Speaker 1: is how big the rack was? What what's your buddy

1816
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:30,000
Speaker 1: with the podcast? That? In uh J, the two guys

1817
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:35,519
Speaker 1: J and DR, they literally just talked numbers on antlers, like, yeah,

1818
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:39,519
Speaker 1: saw three about one? Do you want to heat this thing?

1819
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:45,040
Speaker 1: Kill somebody with it? I think what happened when everybody

1820
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:49,600
Speaker 1: moved western of Mississippi. They lost their noodles, okay, and

1821
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:53,040
Speaker 1: they got way too wrapped up in everything we're back east.

1822
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:55,080
Speaker 1: We just do the same thing we've been doing since

1823
01:40:55,120 --> 01:41:00,479
Speaker 1: we such bs down such the coq d m. A

1824
01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:03,320
Speaker 1: thing is from the southeast. I don't pay attention to

1825
01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:06,640
Speaker 1: your hunter. I'm a bird hunter. If you think that

1826
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 1: wanting to shoot something big is a Western invention, dude,

1827
01:41:12,439 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 1: they're's bigger here. So you have no idea what you're

1828
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:19,679
Speaker 1: talking about, of course not, do you know that? Whatever

1829
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 1: you argue with me, that stuff like the white the

1830
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: white tailed deer world, you know what, and you know

1831
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: I'm not a part of it at all, like zero,

1832
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:32,160
Speaker 1: So all right, but it's just weird, I hear like

1833
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 1: so much like it's kind of like the people out

1834
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:44,240
Speaker 1: west are obsessive about Yeah, Rex, super obsessive. Other than

1835
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:50,839
Speaker 1: Dave that doesn't have any money. It's closed from Arkansas,

1836
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:55,160
Speaker 1: family is or something. Anyway, My concluding thought is that

1837
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:57,600
Speaker 1: thanks for having me here, and let's go hunting tomorrow. No,

1838
01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 1: we're going, Yeah, we're going hunting tomorrow. Um goss. The

1839
01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:05,720
Speaker 1: whole story, I'm gonna save it. My including thought is

1840
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 1: it's been thank you, NiFi Colon, Dave Wilms, the little

1841
01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 1: bit of time we've spent. Uh, I have an opportunity

1842
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 1: to talk about the issues we've talked about, and then

1843
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 1: that we've been able to share email correspondence. It really has. UH,

1844
01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:32,880
Speaker 1: it's really enhanced my understanding of wildlife issues in the US.

1845
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 1: I I I can't say, like like in a blanket way.

1846
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:43,840
Speaker 1: I can't say that we might agree on every single

1847
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:48,160
Speaker 1: detail about stuff, but I really have appreciated watching and

1848
01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:51,480
Speaker 1: just the little bit I've seen in our discussions, watching

1849
01:42:52,760 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 1: in a real time way. UH, how decisions about wildlife

1850
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 1: get made, how social perceptions are formed, and kind of

1851
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 1: the complexities of being the people and around the people

1852
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:14,280
Speaker 1: who are who actually have to make the compromises and

1853
01:43:14,479 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 1: forge the deals and have it be that you're looking

1854
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:22,680
Speaker 1: out for wildlife at the same time you're mindful of

1855
01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:26,479
Speaker 1: a constituency who needs to live here, make a living here,

1856
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:31,840
Speaker 1: raise their children here. It's been interesting to see. UM.

1857
01:43:32,720 --> 01:43:37,600
Speaker 1: I really invite people to to uh delve into some

1858
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 1: of the complexities because I think that you'll find, uh

1859
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 1: as you start to look at these issues, that that

1860
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: there's no comfort in how easy the solution is. There's

1861
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: a tendency to want to find ways where you look

1862
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:56,519
Speaker 1: and you'd be like, oh, it's simple they want to

1863
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:59,760
Speaker 1: do this or now they're gonna do that, And when

1864
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: you look into what it actually goes on, and and

1865
01:44:03,160 --> 01:44:07,719
Speaker 1: talking about these big emblematic things wolves and grizzly bears

1866
01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:10,719
Speaker 1: and other things that it's um, it's a mine field.

1867
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: And and the fact that you guys have UH in

1868
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: the state. I feel like ben in it in a

1869
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:21,640
Speaker 1: way and dealing with some things that are impacting the

1870
01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:23,960
Speaker 1: rest of the country and trying to do it in

1871
01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:26,880
Speaker 1: a thoughtful way and from a position that I know

1872
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:30,760
Speaker 1: personally comes from really admiring wildlife and wanting to be

1873
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:35,920
Speaker 1: out among wildlood. That you're like wildlife guys who spend

1874
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 1: your time out of doors appreciating and enjoying wildlood. Um,

1875
01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:44,840
Speaker 1: it's refreshing. Man, It's great to see. And I I

1876
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 1: trust that you have you know, wisdom and and and

1877
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:51,400
Speaker 1: good ideas going into the future. So thanks for coming on.

1878
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:07,240
Speaker 1: Assssssssssssss