1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Friends Media. Today's episode addicted to anti Blackness. 3 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Today, we're stepping into a chapter of American history that's 4 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: both sobering and enlightening. The crack cocaine era. 5 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 3: They call it crack, a killer drug, wasting innocent lives. 6 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: It's a time that shook communities, and the stories that 7 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: emerge from it reveal a complex web of struggles, truths, 8 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: and the power of narratives to shape our perceptions. 9 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: During the crack cocaine era, the media played a huge 10 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: role in shaping public opinion about addiction. Often, Black people 11 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: struggling with the day were portrayed as sub human super predators, 12 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: determined to destroy anyone in anything they came in contact with. 13 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: It's crucial to understand how storytelling and media, be it films, 14 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: TV shows, or news coverage, influenced the way we saw 15 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: crack users during that tumultuous time. 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: Take, for instance, the film Knwjack City. While it's a 17 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: powerful critique of the crack epidemics impact on communities, it 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: also painted crack users with a broad brush, often showcasing 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: them as violent, uncontrollable criminals. Pooky, played by Chris Rock 20 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: is a crack user who resorts to crime, reinforcing the 21 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 2: idea that addiction inevitably leads to criminal behavior. 22 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: And knows romping on that glove that's got men. 23 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: Oh, got no control over it now. 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: And then there's the infamous Just Say No campaign, spearheaded 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: by the Reagan administration and the subsequent local PSAs. These 26 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: initiatives oversimplified addiction as a personal feeling, neglecting the systemic 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: issues that contributed to the crack epidemic devastating effects. By 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: framing addiction as a purely individual problem, they ignored the 29 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: social and economic factors that were at play. 30 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. It's not that these stories didn't 31 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: have elements of truth. There were people whose lives spiraled 32 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: into crime due to addiction, and communities did experience heightened 33 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: violence during those years. However, the danger lies in reducing 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: an entire group of people to a single narrative, a 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: single story. The crack cocaine era was far more complex 36 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: than what these portrayals implied. 37 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: And let's not forget the role of music during this era. 38 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: Hip hop artists used their lyrics to address the crack 39 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: epidemic head on, while Grandmaster flashes White Lines critiques both 40 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: the drug trade and the systemic issues that contributed to 41 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: its proliferation. Other songs like The Dogs Your Mama's on 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: Crack Rock ridicules addicted women in particular and their family members. 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: And while the crack era was in the nineteen eighties 44 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: and nineteen nineties, its impact and the way we interact 45 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 2: with it through stories is still very much present today. 46 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: The way we frame stories about addiction still impacts how 47 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: we perceive crack addiction and other forms as well. It's 48 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: a reminder that we must challenge the oversimplified narratives that 49 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: lead to stigma. Addiction is a complex interplay of biology, environment, 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: and circumstance, and just like back then, we need stories 51 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: that reflect the full spectrum of experiences, from struggle to 52 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: recovery and everything in between. 53 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: And today we're speaking with an author who is telling 54 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: a more nuanced story of the crack era. 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm Katie, I'm Eves, And today we're talking to Donovan 56 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: X Ramsey about his book When Crack Was King. 57 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: I am Donovan x Ramsey. I am a journalist and 58 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: author from Columbus, Ohio. I report on the Black experience 59 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: and patterns of power. 60 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: All right, Donovan, So we had a time reading your book. 61 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: When I first heard about it, I had a vision 62 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: that it would only be about crack users, and then 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: of course when I read it, you had those multiple perspectives. 64 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: So why was it important for you to include multiple 65 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: perspectives the addict, the dealer, the mayor, the family member 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: instead of just focusing on the addict. 67 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 3: You know, I really wanted to make an attempt to 68 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: write a comprehensive history. I feel like black stories sometimes 69 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: get not sometimes a lot of times get short shripped, 70 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: and we don't get people's best efforts. So for me, 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: because there hadn't been a comprehensive history of the crack 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: epidemic written, it seemed like an opportunity to tell the 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 3: story from just more than one perspective. So I wanted 74 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: to make sure to get multiple cities. I wanted to 75 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 3: tell the story of the pre crack era, what the 76 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 3: era was actually like, what the world is like now 77 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: as a result of it. But I definitely wanted to 78 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: get different ways that people were impacted by it besides 79 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: just addiction, because all those stories are important to that history. 80 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also that is such a big story to tell. Like, 81 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: it's already a big story to tell to just talk 82 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: about the users, but to talk about the entire context 83 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: around it is an even bigger story to tell. How 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: did it feel to you to approach such an expansive topic. 85 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: Well, I am foolishly overconfident. That is one of our 86 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: gifts and you know curses, is that everything seems seems doable, 87 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: at least within journalism. I think, oh, you know, I 88 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 3: could do that. And I didn't realize until I was 89 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 3: deep into the reporting and writing process just how much 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 3: I have betten off, you know, like trying to we 91 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: those pieces together and all of those disparate pieces was 92 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: it was really difficult and hopefully uphold it off. 93 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: I feel like every writer is like, oh, shoot, now 94 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: I gotta write. 95 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounded really good in my head, but now 96 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: it's time to put the words on the paper and 97 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: it's like, wait, different ordeals exactly. Yeah. 98 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: But I think that over confidence in storytelling is how 99 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: a lot of the best Black stories, for sure get told. 100 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: Like if you think about like Eyes on the Price 101 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 2: or Roots, or you know, those those stories that really 102 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: like go deep and take it there. If the if 103 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: the person who would who thought those up knew what 104 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: it would take to bring these stories to the page 105 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: or to the screen, like they might have they might 106 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: have like second guessed themselves a little bit. So having 107 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: that over confidence to just go ahead and like tell 108 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: the story and I don't know, tell everyone you're going 109 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: to tell the story, so then you feel peer pressure 110 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: to actually finish it, I think is really important too. 111 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know what it also is, I think 112 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 3: like a part impetus to just jump into a big 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 3: story is also I feel a part of the Black 114 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 3: storytelling tradition. Like you know, I grew up around people 115 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: that were storytellers and very funny and very persuasive and convincing. 116 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: And they might start telling you one story and then 117 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: they hit you with the you know, well quiet as 118 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 3: it's kept, or you know, truth be told or if 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: you take all of these diversions, as they realize the 120 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 3: story is much bigger then they thought it would be originally, 121 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: and you know, and you get there. You know, it's 122 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: like it's like a part of our storytelling tradition is revision, 123 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: it is addendums, and so I just try to like 124 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 3: embrace that. 125 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's part of the human experience, 126 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: like nothing is just so linear, Like you're going to 127 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: go off on tangents and you're going to find these 128 00:07:55,320 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: like really obscure connections, and especially with something like the era, 129 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: which is, you know, we see it as recent history 130 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: that you know, either many of us were kind of 131 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: too young to be really in the know about it, 132 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: or even people younger than us weren't even born yet. 133 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: It kind of gets sanitized to like this happened, this happened, 134 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: and then this happened, and it doesn't doesn't. We don't 135 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: get the full breadth of it, which is like very hard. 136 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: So I'm so glad that when krack was king was 137 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: out so people can see those different connections, see those 138 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: different perspectives. And the person that I really loved reading 139 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: about was Lenny, who was a crack user, and I 140 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: noticed that she was the only woman out of the 141 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: four main people that you spoke with. Was that intentional 142 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: with that characters selection to have a woman speak to 143 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: the experiences of being addicted to crack with all that 144 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: comes with that, the sexual violence and the prostitution and 145 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: you know, the pimps and all that coming. 146 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: In her in her orbit. 147 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: You know, it intentional that I knew that I wanted 148 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 3: women to be a part of the book for sure, 149 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: and to have some central characters as women. I found 150 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: Lenny early on and I interviewed, i should say, like 151 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: hundreds of people across the countries, across the really twelve 152 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: hardest hit cities in twenty eighteen. So, you know, as 153 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: I got down to it in the actual writing process, 154 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: after having interviewed her, I realized that her experience as 155 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: a black woman addict included really everything that can happen 156 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: to a person while they are experiencing addiction, that you know, 157 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 3: she didn't have the protection of maleness in some cases. 158 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: You know, women were all all over and all through 159 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: out the crack epidemic, Black women in particular that they 160 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 3: were you know, city officials, they were drug dealers, they 161 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: were police officers and prosecutors. They were also addicts, but 162 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 3: more importantly, they were people who loved folks in all 163 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: those positions too. And you can't, you know, discount the 164 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 3: extent to which black women experienced the crack epidemic just 165 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: by loving people that were caught up in it. 166 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: And it's really impactful for you to just show the 167 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: entire breath of a person like that with so much empathy, 168 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: which is antithetical to the kind of portrayals that happened 169 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: in media. So I'm wondering, Donovan, for you what it 170 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: was like to maybe I don't know if this is 171 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 1: the word that you would use, but form this counterpoint 172 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: to media or mainstream and historical media narratives about people 173 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: who use crack and how there was there were these 174 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: depths that they couldn't get out of versus the people 175 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: in your stories whose lives you know, were turned around 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: and often did end in these positive ways. You know, 177 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: there was an alchemy in the way that they turned 178 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: their stories into ones that could change other people's lives 179 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: in positive ways. 180 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: That was essential to me. You know, in writing this 181 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: book that the place that I started from was the 182 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: fact that we were living in a post crack era, 183 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: and I felt like that was something that we hadn't celebrated. 184 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: So I started from the place that Black Americans survived 185 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 3: the crack epidemic and that we survived it without a 186 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 3: whole lot of help. So in finding people who were 187 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: going to tell that story or sort of illustrate that story, 188 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: you know, I then was looking for survivors of course, 189 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: knowing that through telling each of their stories that they 190 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: would include lots of other people who actually didn't arrived. 191 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: But that in talking about where we are today, we 192 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 3: are a community, a country, you know, really a society 193 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: that has survived the crack epidemic. 194 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: We got to take a quick break, but we'll be 195 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: right back. 196 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever met someone that I could 197 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: tell that they were using crack. But you have this 198 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: woman in your neighborhood. Do you remember like hearing songs 199 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: or watching TV and seeing someone that was portraying a 200 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: crack user and how you responded to that versus how 201 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: you responded to the people that you saw in your neighborhood. 202 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: I really despise TV representations of addicts, So you know, 203 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 3: I think about especially crack addicts, like I think about 204 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 3: the Dave Chappelle Tyrone Bigham's character, which is a you know, 205 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: comical character, and he does, you know, play it in 206 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: a funny way, and there are you know things that 207 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: listen we like laugh to keep from crying. Right, So 208 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 3: when you see people in your community who are you know, 209 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 3: doing ridiculous things and that you know that they're doing 210 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 3: it because they are either high or you know, just 211 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: just just out of their minds a little bit. It's like, 212 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 3: you laugh, because that's just like a part of their 213 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 3: character in the neighborhood. So you know. But but we 214 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: do that for whatever reason, with crack and not with 215 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: other drugs. And yeah, you know, I can't help to 216 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: think that it's you know that, like, you know, there 217 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 3: aren't the comical representations of opioid users. And even though 218 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: they're probably funny too, right, Like, there are things that like, 219 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: you know, humor that we can find in the behaviors 220 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 3: of people who are like nodding off, you know, on 221 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: their drives to work. I don't think it's funny, but 222 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: but you know, somebody might. There are a lot of 223 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 3: people who either used or became addicted to crack in 224 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: the eighties and nineties. The vast majority of those people 225 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: were white, because like anything in this country, the vast 226 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: majority of people who experience it use it whatever it is, 227 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: or white because most people in this country are white. 228 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 3: Black and Latino people use drugs, will use use crack 229 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: in particular, at a disproportionate rate. But we're still the 230 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: minority of users because they were because we are minority 231 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: groups in this country. But for whatever reason, the sort 232 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 3: of image of the crack user, you know what I 233 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: shouldn't say, for whatever reason, because of anti blackness, the 234 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: the image of the cracks you know, like like like 235 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: a black person, you know, tweaking and you know, being erratic, 236 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 3: which you know is a part of like the behavior 237 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: of people high on cocaine. But of course, right there 238 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: is like a spectrum of behaviors among people who do anything. 239 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: So so those people were a minority of a minority 240 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: of a minority. What I should say is that when 241 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 3: we create those kind of characters out of a dynamic, 242 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: what it does is it makes it so that other 243 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: people who are dealing with addiction, even addiction to crack 244 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: kind of become invisible. So you know, when you're looking 245 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: for a quote unquote crackhead, you're looking for tyrone biggems, 246 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: and then you're unable to see other people who are 247 00:15:54,200 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 3: struggling with addiction who may not look like that. And 248 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: and I think it just does a disservice to our 249 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: understanding of addiction. 250 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: Also, you reminded me when you said, like the anti 251 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: blackness in the crack era versus like folks who are 252 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: on opioids and we're not getting those like comical depictions 253 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: the white people get like the benefit of, you know, 254 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: like all the stuff that the black people went through. Like, oh, well, 255 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: you don't want us making fun of like opioid users 256 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: because you said doing that with crack. 257 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: What's bad, Like it's an epidemic now and we can 258 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: actually label it that instead of a quote unquote war. 259 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: It's so clear when it's like white people versus black people, 260 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: and it's like you can like couch and like, oh well, 261 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: it's the twenty twenties, like we're woke now, like we 262 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: don't make fun of people. But I would venture to 263 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: say if the crack era was going on right now, 264 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: people would be doing the same thing, you know, because 265 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: it would be like the oh yeah, the personification would 266 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: be like a black person, and we wouldn't be like 267 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: public health oriented about the situation because it would still 268 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: be like about black people. But of course, like you 269 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: can't say that for sure because it's not happening, and 270 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: like opioids are the new thing. 271 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: I mean, we sadly, I think might soon be able 272 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: to make that comparison because the opioid epidemic has shifted 273 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 3: from prescription pills, which was its original form, and it 274 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: has now shifted to street drugs like heroin, and we're 275 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: seeing now also with fittanol since about twenty twenty, so 276 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: you know, there is actually a heartening of attitudes around 277 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 3: opioids that corresponds to its blackening, so to speak. So 278 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: you know, I would just say keep your eye out 279 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 3: because America is a wild place that is addicted to 280 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 3: anti blackness. 281 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how in your book you get to 282 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: see the hirety of the way that things shifted over time. 283 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: How did that in your view and your perspective and 284 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: the work that you've done see that shift happening in 285 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: the way that the media told stories about people who 286 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: were using crack from the beginning of the era to 287 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: the end of it. 288 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 3: So in the beginning of the crack epidemic, the media 289 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: was actually pretty late, you know that that it was 290 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: really hip hop and like rap music that you know, 291 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 3: it's like where we have the earliest sort of accounts 292 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: of the crack epidemic back when it was called freebase, 293 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: so it's early. It's like nineteen eighty three. You have 294 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: rappers like mc shan on. You know, Jane stopped this 295 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 3: crazy thing, talking specifically about a neighbor of his that 296 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 3: is using freebase and telling her to stop the same 297 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 3: thing about White Lines are from White White Lines by 298 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: Rand Master Flash, which was an anti cocaine, anti freebase song. 299 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 3: Mainstream media doesn't really catch up until about nineteen eighty seven, 300 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 3: so and the representations that we get then are almost 301 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: all about celebrities. You know, it's about Richard Pryor blowing 302 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 3: himself up. It's about you know, athletes in baseball and 303 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 3: basketball testing positive for cocaine because they're using this new 304 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: thing called free base. It's about people like Lynn Bias, 305 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: who was the number one NBA draft pick. He died 306 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 3: of heart figure because he used cocaine, dying the night 307 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: of his draft from a cocaine overdose. But the representation 308 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 3: at that time was still pretty i would say, curious 309 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: and certainly not as harsh, are kind of demonizing, because 310 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: they were still working around this idea of cocaine as 311 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: like this like glamour drug that rich and famous people used. 312 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: It wasn't really until I would say Lynn Bias's death 313 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 3: in nineteen was at maybe eighty seven that we see 314 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: a shift into the crack narrative, So we stop calling 315 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 3: the substance freebase and we start calling it crack, and 316 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 3: it becomes associated with poor people in the inner city. 317 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: And then you see this kind of heartening of the 318 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 3: reporting where it's focused on, you know, just how depraved 319 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: the users and dealers are. And that's where we start 320 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 3: seeing the emergence of you know, the crackhead trope, the 321 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: super predator trope, the crack baby trope. That all of 322 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 3: those caricature sort of come to light and then they 323 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 3: take on a life of their own, you know, as 324 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 3: you see how effective they are to make people afraid. 325 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: And you know, eventually, as the epidemic way, and the 326 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: media just got tired of it and really stopped reporting 327 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: on the epidemic and ultimately didn't really cover its decline 328 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: because the decline isn't as you know, sensational as the epidemic. 329 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: You have an at break, but we'll be back soon. 330 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: It's interesting how it goes from curiosity to oh, it's 331 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: kind of glamorous and mysterious to demonize. And I wanted 332 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: to ask you, like, how do you think about crack 333 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: itself as a character and how it acts as a 334 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: character in when Crack was king, and thinking just about 335 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: how Crack acted on society. And even in the book, 336 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: when Lenny comes back from being pregnant, she notices how 337 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: the neighborhood has changed so much, and like Crack was 338 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: the thing that was acting on the neighborhood and had 339 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: this like very visible impact. So were you thinking about 340 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 2: Crack as a character when you were writing when Crack 341 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: was king. 342 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, Crack is the fifth character in the book. 343 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 3: So there's Lenny, there's Sean, there's Kurt, and there's Elgin, 344 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 3: and the book sort of tracks their lives over this 345 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: period of time alongside Crack, the sort of rise and 346 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: ball of this substance. And you know, as a character, 347 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: Crack is interesting because you know, I established early on 348 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: in the book that you know, crack is cocaine. It's 349 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 3: just consumed differently. So you know, people, you know, because 350 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: of the way that it's been positioned in our society, 351 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 3: thinks that it's a different substance and that the process 352 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 3: of making it somehow transforms it. 353 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's easy when you're thinking of Crack 354 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: as a character to make it that thing, like is 355 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: this real villain? Yeah, it's the villain. It's this relic. 356 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: It's like the motif. So it's very easy to place 357 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: the emphasis on that object and it being this thing 358 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: that in turn, it being used by that person transforms 359 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: it like it's some sort of magical sword or something 360 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: like that. When you hold on to it, you have 361 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: all these different powers, and it just so happens that 362 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: these powers are ones that everybody's looking at, like, I 363 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with. 364 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: That, I think. Also the naming of it, crack sounds 365 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: so harsh, and the cocaine sounds kind of fancy. 366 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 3: Which is funny because I mean, you like mentioned like 367 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: the name cocaine that you know that the name of 368 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: the plant that is derived from is coca and the 369 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: suffix you know, in means derived from, So it's Latin 370 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: for like derived from the coca plant. So that name 371 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 3: like sounds fancy because it is actually like scientific language 372 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: for what that substance was. Its original name, freebase, you know, 373 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 3: was also a like scientific term. It was it indicated 374 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: the process by which it was made. That you read 375 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 3: the base from other elements. Almost wonder if you know, 376 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 3: if it had retained its original name, if our relationship 377 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 3: to it would be different if we would understand that 378 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 3: it was the same substances. It's almost like renaming it, 379 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 3: you know, allowed it to be different in the imagination, 380 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 3: and then it made it harder for us to understand it. 381 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: Donovan, I know that you've been researching this book for 382 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: many years and have collected a lot of media, whether 383 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: it be PSAs or music videos or movie clips. Was 384 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: there one that stood out to you and you're like, 385 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: oh my god, I cannot believe this is real. 386 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: Oh yes, the you know, Partnership for a Drug Free 387 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 3: America was like a big part of my upbringing. They 388 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: did all the big anti drug PSAs. There was one 389 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 3: that was targeted specifically at at black children in the 390 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 3: early nineties, and it starts with, you know, Africans were 391 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 3: brought here in change, you know, hundreds of years ago. 392 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 3: Do not dishonor your ancestors by using drugs like cracking 393 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 3: and you know, in alcohol. And they literally show like 394 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 3: like a room full of kids who are I guess 395 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: like supposed to be high on cracks, so they're kind 396 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: of just like laying down and like sedated, which, by 397 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 3: the way, crack is a stimulant. People get energy from 398 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: using crack, they don't, you know, like like it's not 399 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 3: Heroin where they like not off. But then the kids 400 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 3: are there with their like high top fades and they're 401 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: like you know, rebox stuff on and then a chain 402 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 3: appears like around their necks as they're like laying there, 403 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: and I remember thinking to myself as a kid, this 404 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: is so damn disrespectful, like why are y'all talking about slavery? 405 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: Like literally the people making this ad do not give 406 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 3: a damn about slavery, And it was just meant to 407 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: be shaming and like sensational, and uh and I didn't 408 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 3: like it, you me as a kid, like I don't 409 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: want some disembodied white man voice telling me about slavery. 410 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: You know. 411 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: That was that was wild to me. And then there's 412 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 3: one that I think is like, actually, uh, pretty effective. 413 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: The series was called The Real Kids on the Block, 414 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: so they were using real you know, black children in 415 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: this case to like talk about drugs. And it's you know, 416 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: one point telling his brother that he can't hang out 417 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: his friend Walter, and his friend is like, you know why, 418 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 3: He's like, is Walter do drugs? It was heartwarming to 419 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 3: see a conversation between two children in terms they would 420 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 3: actually use about addiction. But when I looked at the 421 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 3: research about, you know, how the epidemic ended, it ended 422 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 3: because the next cohort of young people decided just not 423 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: to use crack. That you know, drug trends are like 424 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: any other trends where in order for them to continue, 425 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 3: they have to be picked up by a subsequent generation. 426 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: So whether it's bell bottoms or pet rocks or you know, 427 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: acid washed genes, if the next group of people don't 428 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: think it's cool, then it ends. Well. Its young people 429 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 3: looking at the devastation of their communities that said I'm 430 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 3: actually not going to do this. And you know, rates 431 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: of not just crack but hard drug use for black 432 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 3: and Latino people in particular completely plummeted around nineteen ninety two, 433 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: and they still are tremendously low, like much much lower 434 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: than they are for white youth. 435 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: Because you interviewed so many people for this book, what 436 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: did you find that were the kinds of stories that 437 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: they were telling themselves. Were you able to see some 438 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: of the real time processing in the ways that they 439 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: told their own stories and their relation to crack. 440 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: I found that there was a tremendous amount of shame 441 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 3: around the crack epidemic for most people, and for the 442 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 3: most part, they just didn't talk about it. So, you know, 443 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: the four folks that I have, I feel really lucky 444 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: to have because they were able to talk about their experiences. 445 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 3: Will one have memories of it, you know, because a 446 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 3: lot of people that go through traumatic stuff that they 447 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: just lose time and and and and and those folks 448 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: still have pretty good memories that they were willing to 449 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: talk openly to me about what they had been through. 450 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: And yeah, I like definitely saw some processing, especially with Elgin, 451 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 3: whose father was addicted to crack. You know, it was 452 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 3: through talking with Elgin that he realized that he was 453 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: dealing with some pretty significant anxiety still some like PTSD 454 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: from his experience, because you know, he had gotten through it, 455 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: he just didn't think about it anymore. But you know, 456 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 3: I think that it's so important for people that experienced 457 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 3: the crack up the day firsthand or second hand, and 458 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 3: also you know, really just everybody in this country that 459 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: we incorporate that period of time into our larger history 460 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: because it is something that we survived and there are 461 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 3: lessons to be learned from the ways that we survived. 462 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: It was tough, and it was also really hard to 463 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: listen to people's stories of the Crack era. But I 464 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 3: think it's worth it, like in the end that I 465 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 3: understand so much more about our country today as a 466 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 3: result of doing that work than I did before. 467 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I feel like it's an American tradition to 468 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: not learn from his. 469 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: I was just about to say that that it is 470 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: a recurring pattern. 471 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, would we be America actually learned from something. 472 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: Right, It's like the United States would probably write it 473 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: on its resume and the skills list like really good 474 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: at not acknowledging what happens so that I can not 475 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 1: grow from it. Yeah. 476 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Somebody said once that that within Western cultures that 477 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: there is this fear of history and this sphere of 478 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 3: the dead in particular that is manifested as like fear 479 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 3: of ghosts and like ghost stories and like Western traditions, 480 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 3: Whereas if you go into like other societies around the world, 481 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: that there is this way that we embrace ancestors and 482 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 3: there are people that like literally can continue to guide 483 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 3: us and to sort of help us. And I think 484 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: about it in that way that like crack is like 485 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 3: a ghost and you know, in like the Western tradition, 486 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: we're like, oh, you know, like keep that away from us. 487 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 3: Let's like exercise it, and we don't embrace it as 488 00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 3: an ancestor. That can, you know, continue to inform our lives. 489 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 3: And I feel like, in a very African way, like 490 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 3: I want to make the Crack epidemic and ancestor it is. 491 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 3: It is gone, but it is still very present in 492 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 3: our minds. 493 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: And now it's time for my favorite segment, roll credits, 494 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, thing, idea 495 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: Donovan x Ramsey, Who, what where? 496 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 3: When? 497 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: Why would you like to give credit to? Today? 498 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: I want to give credit to the city of Atlanta. Okay, 499 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 3: I went to college in Atlanta. I went to Morehouse. 500 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: You know. 501 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't be a more House man if 502 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: I didn't announce the fact that I. 503 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: Want to That's true. 504 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 3: But you know, Atlanta has given me so much. And 505 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 3: Atlanta's actually where I also wrote when Crack was king 506 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 3: that after I did the reporting, I wanted to be 507 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 3: somewhere where I felt like I could be at peace 508 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 3: and I could be comfortable, and I could work without 509 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 3: feeling like the pressure to do anything else. And you 510 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 3: haven't gone to college here. I was like, Atlanta is it. 511 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: I encourage, like any black person that is doing creative work, 512 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 3: if you haven't spent significant time in Atlanta, to spend 513 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 3: significant time in Atlanta, because you will be surrounded by 514 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 3: characters that will bring out the best of it, and 515 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 3: you will be in an environment that kind of like 516 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 3: wants you to be here in a way that I 517 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 3: feel like other cities are resistant to not necessarily black people, 518 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: but to like blackness, you know what I mean, like 519 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 3: real sauce and flavor, and Atlanta is all about again, 520 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: it's the dirty bird. It's all about the flavor. 521 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, doing it loudly at Eves. I'm want to 522 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: give credit to water today. I've been thinking a lot 523 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: about water recently because I'm usually in the warm months. 524 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: I like water, but I don't spend a lot of 525 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: time in it, and I realized that recently, so I've 526 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: been trying to reconnect to the ways and I'm linked 527 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: to water, thinking of thinking of as Donovan mentioned earlier, 528 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: was talking about earlier ancestors, the way in which rivers 529 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: are connected to ancestors, submerging myself and bodies of water, 530 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: meaning things in connection to baptism, rebirth, and also just 531 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: cooling down because it is super hot. We like to 532 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: say every summer that it's so hot. I never liked 533 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: this before warning but I know. But it's just funny 534 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: that that that's the talking point every year. But yeah, 535 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: I mean water and also like obviously it's life giving 536 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,959 Speaker 1: and in the drinking form. So thankful for that because 537 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: everybody doesn't get that either, truthfully. Yeah, that's that's my 538 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: shout out today. 539 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like y'all are so positive. I would 540 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: like to give credit to pet peeves. I have a 541 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: ton of pet peeves, and I feel like pet peeves 542 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 2: allow me to like, no, if I'm going to rock 543 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: with somebody or not, Like if I say, like, what's 544 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 2: your pet peeve and you say you don't have none, 545 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: I just know like we can't be friends. So I'm like, 546 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: yes you do, and you just don't want to complain 547 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: with me and like you're not my type of girl. 548 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: But yeah, pet peeves, it lets me know like what 549 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 2: type of person you are if I ask your pet 550 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: peeve and you let me know, like, oh, my pet 551 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 2: peeve is this, and I'm like I really identify with that, 552 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: or like nah, I am rock with that for real. 553 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's just like a really quick way to 554 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 2: judge people, and I know I need that. 555 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: But thank you, thank you, thank. 556 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 3: You so much for having me. This was a blast. 557 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: If you would like to keep up with Donovan, you 558 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Donovan x Ramsey. 559 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Go buy his book When Crack Was King, and also 560 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: a special shout out today to Donovan X Ramsey for 561 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: all the media clips that he provided from the Crack era. 562 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 563 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 564 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 565 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send 566 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. 567 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 568 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.