WEBVTT - Jackson Browne 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:26.116 Pushkin. In the nineteen seventies, Jackson Brown was known as 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:29.396 one of the originators of the care free California classic 0:00:29.476 --> 0:00:33.076 rock sound, with hits like Doctor My Eyes and Running 0:00:33.076 --> 0:00:50.076 on Empty Looking. As his career progressed, Jackson Brown's knack 0:00:50.156 --> 0:00:53.876 for writing soul searching lyrics turned more political. He began 0:00:53.916 --> 0:00:57.156 to write protest songs that addressed weighty issues like environmental 0:00:57.236 --> 0:01:01.196 degradation in US foreign policy. Brown continues to use his 0:01:01.316 --> 0:01:04.516 music as a vehicle for change today. His latest album, 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:07.996 Downhill from Everywhere, was inspired by a documentary about the 0:01:08.036 --> 0:01:12.036 Pacific garbage back and our impact on the planning. On 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:15.196 today's episode, Bruce Headlam talks to Jackson Brown about how 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:18.916 he is able to turn catastrophic headlines into palatable songs. 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:21.956 Brown also talks about moving to New York City when 0:01:21.956 --> 0:01:25.476 he was eighteen and writing songs for the Velvet Undergrounds Nico. 0:01:26.116 --> 0:01:28.996 Brown also remembers the time his former label boss, David 0:01:29.036 --> 0:01:31.996 Geffen shut down his attempt to quote the Black Panthers 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:39.036 Bobby Seal and a song. This is broken record liner 0:01:39.076 --> 0:01:47.076 notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce 0:01:47.156 --> 0:01:51.196 Headlam and Jackson Brown. I want to talk about your 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:54.076 new album. Of course, First of all, where did the 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:58.476 title come from? It comes from an oceanographer named Captain 0:01:58.596 --> 0:02:03.476 Charles Moore, the guy that discovered the North Pacific gyre 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:05.916 and all the plastic squirreling and the jar has become 0:02:06.756 --> 0:02:09.756 known as the Pacific garbage patch. He's the guy that 0:02:09.836 --> 0:02:11.996 sort of discovered it and sort of brought out to 0:02:12.036 --> 0:02:15.436 attention of the rest of the world. And in talking 0:02:15.476 --> 0:02:17.916 about the ocean and our impact on the ourc change 0:02:17.916 --> 0:02:21.156 says that's the ocean is downhill from everywhere, and that's 0:02:21.156 --> 0:02:23.476 where the title comes from. And it's really at the 0:02:23.516 --> 0:02:27.516 heart of what the song is talking about us humans 0:02:27.516 --> 0:02:30.756 impact on the planet. You know, this album it has 0:02:30.916 --> 0:02:34.276 political songs like that one the Dreamer. It's got other 0:02:34.316 --> 0:02:37.996 songs that deal with current issues. And this surprised me. 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.876 It seemed like a very optimistic album to me. The 0:02:41.956 --> 0:02:46.116 personal song seemed very optimistic, which is not always something 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:51.516 I associate with your music. It wasn't wistful or valedictory. 0:02:52.076 --> 0:02:54.196 Were you in a good mood when you when you 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:56.676 wrote this album? Were you in a good place? This 0:02:57.156 --> 0:03:00.916 album got written over a period of years, so I 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:03.796 think that that maybe I have a desire to be 0:03:03.916 --> 0:03:07.236 optimistic or to be be hopeful. Not optimistic, but to 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:10.076 be hopeful. The act of writings song, I think I 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:13.716 reflectively want to leave things in there'll be some light, 0:03:13.836 --> 0:03:18.236 some possibility for a positive outcome, you know. In still 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:22.796 looking for something, Looking for Love, you're you know, minutes 0:03:22.836 --> 0:03:26.796 from downtown. There are the songs of somebody who's kind 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:30.116 of in the game and enjoying it. The whole album 0:03:30.196 --> 0:03:33.596 has a sense of dealing with things that are interminable. 0:03:33.716 --> 0:03:35.596 They things that are going on and on and on, 0:03:35.676 --> 0:03:39.276 problems where they're before and are there now. Yeah, it's 0:03:39.276 --> 0:03:41.796 about moving forward, and it's about trying to find find 0:03:41.796 --> 0:03:44.556 your way, you know forward. As far as being in 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:47.276 the game, you know, you got to think that you are, 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:52.516 even if you're not, come on, you must be in 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:57.036 the game. Please give us hope here to want to 0:03:57.076 --> 0:04:00.596 make music, you know, you have to have that's the thing, 0:04:00.716 --> 0:04:03.196 just that that you want to. You know, they still 0:04:03.196 --> 0:04:06.316 want to. I mean, it'd be easy to get tired 0:04:06.316 --> 0:04:08.156 of it. But I think I think that probably the 0:04:08.156 --> 0:04:10.036 reason I don't is I I don't do it all 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:12.956 the time. I'm not I'm not releasing album after album, 0:04:12.996 --> 0:04:15.516 and you know, releasing an album every year or two. 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:18.956 You know, it's just I mean, the song the Dreamer. 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:21.596 I've been trying to write that many years ago, and 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:24.596 it just sort of took a turn. I met this guy, 0:04:24.636 --> 0:04:27.796 Eugene Rodriguez, and showed him this old song idea I had, 0:04:28.116 --> 0:04:30.956 which began with the you know, like the Minutemen being 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:34.636 down on the border enforcing you know, trying to you know, vigilantism, 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:37.476 and it just turned into a song about about a 0:04:37.556 --> 0:04:40.636 young person come into this country and giving her future 0:04:40.716 --> 0:04:43.396 to this country, and that is so optimistic. There's so 0:04:43.476 --> 0:04:45.636 much hope in that in the in the midst of 0:04:45.636 --> 0:04:49.996 the debacle that is our immigration policy and the years 0:04:50.036 --> 0:04:52.916 of trying to deny you know, access to people who 0:04:52.916 --> 0:04:55.756 are fundamentally here before we were, and you know, to 0:04:55.836 --> 0:04:58.076 a great extent. You know, people have been coming from 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:01.276 Mexico to California or Arizona, you know, since before they 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:03.916 were in the Union. It's just like they're the best 0:05:03.956 --> 0:05:07.196 among US immigrants. My grandmother came here when she was sixteen, 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:09.156 so there's a lot of there's a lot about this 0:05:09.316 --> 0:05:12.876 country that are the optimism that people have when they 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:16.916 come here. Folded together with the difficulties they endure. But 0:05:17.156 --> 0:05:21.036 you know, it's it's a mixture of both, you know, hardship, optimism, 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:23.636 you know, struggle in each all of these songs. I 0:05:23.676 --> 0:05:26.596 think you mentioned the Dreamer, and I'm wondering when you 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:29.116 when you do write a song that way, you know, 0:05:29.156 --> 0:05:32.676 because your personal songs, people relate to them because the 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:36.396 sort of commonality of emotions that people have and the 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:39.956 dilemmas they face in life. When you're approaching a more 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:42.436 political song, do you say, I want to write something 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:44.956 about immigration because it's wrong? I mean, how do you 0:05:44.996 --> 0:05:46.636 get from there? How do you get from this sort 0:05:46.636 --> 0:05:51.836 of high level New York Times headline to the emotional 0:05:51.876 --> 0:05:54.476 heart of a song like that. Yeah, that's a good 0:05:54.516 --> 0:05:58.836 question because the thing that I've tried, I've tried to 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:01.356 do in the past sometimes to try to broach a 0:06:01.436 --> 0:06:06.196 subject strategically and try to draw people into the subject 0:06:06.276 --> 0:06:09.276 and taught what matters to each of us. And there's 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:12.716 the problem with anything political is if you're too oblique, 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:15.076 they won't know what you're talking about. And if you're 0:06:15.116 --> 0:06:18.436 too direct, they run the risk of making people feel 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:21.596 that they're being sort of scolded or lectured. Also, I 0:06:21.596 --> 0:06:23.916 told myself, look, I want this to sound like the 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:25.516 way it would sound like if you and I were 0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:28.036 drinking in a bar and we're just talking about what's 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:31.116 going on in the world, not that as if you're 0:06:31.396 --> 0:06:34.316 some sort of elevated place and lecturing people about something 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:37.276 that should know about but dount or that they should care. 0:06:37.076 --> 0:06:39.236 But you know, you have to make people. You have 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:41.756 to get to people where where they do care and 0:06:41.796 --> 0:06:44.036 where what they do know about. In the case of 0:06:44.156 --> 0:06:47.116 Downhill from Everywhere, it's not exactly it's not exactly political 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:50.396 because there's no polemic. There is just like a bunch 0:06:50.436 --> 0:06:54.636 of compounding and sort of contrasting images, you know, the prison, 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:58.676 the mall, factory, farming, the hospital. And the fun of 0:06:58.716 --> 0:07:00.316 it was to make it flow out of it so 0:07:00.396 --> 0:07:03.876 that these seem like extreme consciousness, and sometimes it was. 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:08.036 But you have to make those words sound good with 0:07:08.196 --> 0:07:10.036 rock and roll. And if what I really wanted was 0:07:10.076 --> 0:07:11.236 a song that you don't have to listen to the 0:07:11.276 --> 0:07:13.476 words to at all, you would just listen. You might 0:07:13.476 --> 0:07:15.276 hear some of them going by while you're listening to 0:07:15.356 --> 0:07:18.276 the guitar part, or the or the drum based and 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:21.556 the drums, and I just wanted to feel good. I 0:07:21.676 --> 0:07:23.916 decided not to talk. I mean, I had like a 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:26.676 verse that was gonna you know, it wasn't like going 0:07:26.756 --> 0:07:29.236 to name Trump. I just didn't want a song with 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:31.116 his name in it. I wasn't going to refer to him, 0:07:31.116 --> 0:07:33.516 but I was gonna be talking about like, you know, 0:07:33.596 --> 0:07:36.356 downhill from the White House, downhill from the dump, downhill 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:39.876 from that's something, or the downhill from the biopsy and 0:07:39.996 --> 0:07:43.316 that suspicious lump and yeah, right, but that's I don't 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:47.476 think that's the editor in me that said, Okay, you 0:07:47.556 --> 0:07:51.356 can put that aside. Keep looking. Do you think as 0:07:51.396 --> 0:07:53.396 a result of this last year, when you go back 0:07:53.396 --> 0:07:55.716 out in the road, are there songs of yours from 0:07:55.716 --> 0:07:58.836 your catalog? You say? You know, suddenly this makes sense 0:07:58.916 --> 0:08:01.236 now if I if I take this out in a 0:08:01.276 --> 0:08:04.276 way it might not have two years ago. I'm not 0:08:04.356 --> 0:08:07.756 sure the process of deciding what you're gonna play is 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:11.916 a really involved saying. I'd say I'm more involved in 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:15.156 with which of my old songs the audience wants to 0:08:15.236 --> 0:08:18.116 hear after having been shut down for this amount of time, 0:08:18.156 --> 0:08:20.916 In which of my new songs I can you know, 0:08:21.276 --> 0:08:24.396 I can I can expect to get a real, real 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:27.156 strong listening to. You know, there were times when I 0:08:27.156 --> 0:08:28.996 went out and tried to play every every new song 0:08:29.076 --> 0:08:30.956 on an album in a set, and you wind up playing, 0:08:31.436 --> 0:08:33.636 you know, more than half the songs would be these 0:08:33.676 --> 0:08:36.436 new songs. And I got sort of chided by some 0:08:36.476 --> 0:08:39.596 of my friends, like, and people really come to hear 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:41.836 you what they already know, and you might want to 0:08:41.876 --> 0:08:43.636 just like cut that down to two or three songs. 0:08:43.716 --> 0:08:45.676 And at the same time, I think that this is 0:08:45.676 --> 0:08:47.956 a really important time where people do want to know 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:53.116 what's what's transpired. And these a lot of these songs 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:56.956 were you know, written before and the pandemic, and they're 0:08:56.956 --> 0:09:01.076 about the last several years or their or their culminations. 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:02.996 Some of the songs go back a lot longer than that. 0:09:03.636 --> 0:09:05.636 And Man of Fact, Downhill from Everywhere was the song 0:09:06.076 --> 0:09:09.036 I was writing for a long time. And what I think, 0:09:09.116 --> 0:09:11.316 it's probably not going to be apparent to anybody, you know, 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:13.676 but how would anybody know? But I mean, I've got 0:09:13.756 --> 0:09:16.676 on my laptop screener, I've got like all these sound 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:20.236 checks from trying to play that song. I play these 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:22.556 things back and there are moments when, like I thought, Okay, 0:09:22.596 --> 0:09:25.476 that's the way the drums have to play this song. Well, 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:28.316 that's or the time that Greg Lea's played this incredible 0:09:28.396 --> 0:09:32.516 like dang dann't get that deck out, this really great 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:36.236 guitar leg. He figured it out all these sound checks 0:09:36.996 --> 0:09:39.836 where something happened and I go, oh yeah. And then 0:09:39.836 --> 0:09:43.076 there was the time where I cut the song and 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:45.716 and I say, look, I'm I'm screwing us up. Let 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:47.276 me just try to play my guitar black Jeff, you 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:50.276 sing it and he's singing my keyboarders. The guy was 0:09:50.316 --> 0:09:54.556 singing this line down here from the water. Well, he's 0:09:54.556 --> 0:09:57.196 swinging in a certain way. He just hears things that way. 0:09:57.236 --> 0:10:03.836 He goes like don godd dump. So he's swinging the 0:10:03.876 --> 0:10:06.236 track that way with his la la laws whatever. He's 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:10.636 singing to lead the band, whereas the melody really goes 0:10:11.316 --> 0:10:15.196 all got data and it's against the beat, which provides 0:10:15.196 --> 0:10:16.956 a kind of tension and you can get away with it, 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:21.076 but it's not as in the I tried to convert 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:24.196 all the phrasing to his phrasing, and that really didn't work, 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:26.636 throwing off the words again and then coming back to Minka. 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:28.516 I gotta go back to my Then I just realized, 0:10:28.516 --> 0:10:30.676 I said, just I can have him answer it. I 0:10:30.676 --> 0:10:35.836 can have him reaffirmed that rhythm with his vote Downhill 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:38.396 from the fat from the band in the room, Downhill 0:10:38.436 --> 0:10:40.196 from the you know, so I gave. I wrote a 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:43.316 bunch of lines for him to sing too, and Downhill. 0:10:43.316 --> 0:10:46.876 I thought, as cool as like getting my getting my 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:50.236 singers to sing Downhill from the Anthropascene. I was gonna 0:10:50.236 --> 0:10:54.036 have one of us say, look it up downhill. You 0:10:54.116 --> 0:10:56.996 know it's fun because I'm writing for a band like 0:10:57.316 --> 0:10:59.796 I called in writing that song, I really called the 0:10:59.836 --> 0:11:03.196 guitar part from Greg and a vocal phrasing from Jeff. 0:11:03.196 --> 0:11:06.676 I mean a moment where Fritz was kind of channeling 0:11:06.676 --> 0:11:08.756 the Stones and trying to play this thing. Just make 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:13.036 the song about music first, you know, And so do 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:16.516 most songs. For you to start with lyrical ideas, it's 0:11:16.636 --> 0:11:19.396 usually some piece of lyric and music at the same time, 0:11:19.436 --> 0:11:21.916 I feel, or a little little bit of music at 0:11:21.916 --> 0:11:24.556 the same time. But it's usually a phrase. Yeah, but 0:11:24.636 --> 0:11:29.596 you're still you're a slow writer, aren't you. You've noticed, Yeah, 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:32.236 what's the fastest you've ever written a song? One of 0:11:32.276 --> 0:11:35.636 the fast songs was on this album A little soon 0:11:35.676 --> 0:11:38.756 to say, came up pretty quickly. What's a little quickly 0:11:38.796 --> 0:11:41.796 for you? That I had this idea and a month 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:44.436 later I really started to write it. And then in 0:11:44.476 --> 0:11:46.236 a matter of about a week or so, I had 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:49.396 kind of you know, wow, yeah, stuff happens. I got 0:11:49.436 --> 0:11:51.196 a phone call in the middle of writing this verst 0:11:51.196 --> 0:11:52.836 and I got a phone from a friend of mine 0:11:52.836 --> 0:11:55.356 who's who I worked with, like my production guy, like 0:11:55.516 --> 0:11:58.156 I ever told him to do, but had that conversation 0:11:58.196 --> 0:12:01.476 with him. I just led me into this whole reassessment 0:12:01.476 --> 0:12:03.396 of my whole you know, like I didn't find much 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:06.156 wisdom when I was when time was on my side. 0:12:06.196 --> 0:12:08.276 That verse came from like a feeling I had from 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:10.996 a conversation on the while writing the song. It's not 0:12:11.076 --> 0:12:13.796 like I set out to say something. It's just you. 0:12:14.276 --> 0:12:17.316 It's a process of uncovering things that in you. You know, 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:20.316 within you. We'll be right back with more from Jackson 0:12:20.356 --> 0:12:27.596 Brown after this break. We're back with more from Bruce 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:31.596 Headlam and Jackson Brown. You are associated with Los Angeles 0:12:32.316 --> 0:12:34.756 in a way that few people are associated with places. 0:12:34.796 --> 0:12:38.316 You know, maybe Kurt Cobain and Seattle, or Willie Nelson 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:42.436 in Austin, but you are this Los Angeles character. So 0:12:42.516 --> 0:12:45.436 I'm interested in that early part of your career when 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:47.516 you left, when you went to New York to work. 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:50.196 Can you tell me a bit about that, because it 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:53.036 was Dylan who inspired you to a certain extent. And 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:57.396 what was it like for you're very young a kid 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:00.116 to leave LA and go to New York. Well, I 0:13:00.156 --> 0:13:03.156 grew up in LA until I was about thirteen. But 0:13:03.236 --> 0:13:04.996 then at the time that I went to New York, 0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:07.036 I've been living in Orange County. My family had moved 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:11.156 out to Fullerton. You know. I kicked myself that I 0:13:11.156 --> 0:13:13.876 didn't go somehow get a job at Defender Factory and 0:13:13.956 --> 0:13:17.876 like have like a stash of sixties you know, stratocasters 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:21.476 to show for it. But I was really, yeah, I 0:13:21.556 --> 0:13:26.476 was really immersed in folk music and Dylan, and continue 0:13:26.516 --> 0:13:29.676 to be immersed in roots music and folk music after Dylan. 0:13:29.796 --> 0:13:32.436 Sort of. See, there's a thing about folk music is 0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:34.596 that you learn a song and you make it your own. 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:38.316 You either combine maybe you've combined Dave Van Rogg's version 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:42.756 of stagger Lee with Mississippi John Hurt's version of Staggerly. 0:13:42.796 --> 0:13:45.036 You take the best of those versions and you put 0:13:45.036 --> 0:13:46.996 them together and to put it in your own. In fact, 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:49.956 I wrote a verse a version of stagger Lye that 0:13:50.036 --> 0:13:55.876 in which I'm combine those versions and I'm quoting Bobby Seal, 0:13:56.516 --> 0:13:59.636 you know, the Black Panthers, you know, like Bobby Seals says, 0:13:59.676 --> 0:14:02.636 stagger Lee was the brother off the block whose actions 0:14:02.636 --> 0:14:05.276 had to had to speak for him because he couldn't 0:14:05.276 --> 0:14:08.196 relate to talk. Listen, all you millionaires is something you 0:14:08.236 --> 0:14:11.196 should know. He's his ship together. So I'm you gonna 0:14:11.236 --> 0:14:15.916 have to go? Is that a political song? The fact 0:14:16.036 --> 0:14:19.716 is that David Geffen heard that an he went, huh, women, 0:14:19.916 --> 0:14:22.356 what's wrong with millionaires? What's wrong? We wanted to be 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:25.556 a millionaire And it didn't make my album to make 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:28.436 the first album. But just so you know, like what 0:14:28.556 --> 0:14:30.196 I was referring to is that the fact that you 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:34.516 made these folk songs speak for you and it wasn't 0:14:34.596 --> 0:14:38.676 just like summoning up an arcane song and rendering it 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:41.556 faithfully from you know, we made have started with that. 0:14:41.836 --> 0:14:46.396 I always Joan Baena's incredible songs that she curated on 0:14:46.436 --> 0:14:48.716 her albums, you know, but she did something to them. 0:14:48.836 --> 0:14:51.796 She cast a spell on them that was brand new 0:14:51.916 --> 0:14:55.236 and traditional and ancient at the same time. So that's 0:14:55.236 --> 0:14:58.156 what we started happening. And Dylan, Dylan did it, you know, 0:14:58.756 --> 0:15:01.356 and they did it so well that you sort of, 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:04.636 you know, led the whole procession off into like a 0:15:04.676 --> 0:15:07.876 brand new direction. And I always living in Orange County 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:10.556 by the time that start happening, and when I got 0:15:10.556 --> 0:15:12.596 involved in folk music. Before that, I listened to my 0:15:12.596 --> 0:15:15.396 father's music in Dixie Land, so some of the great 0:15:15.996 --> 0:15:19.276 singers Eelaphus Gerald and man. In fact, we saw Dylan 0:15:19.676 --> 0:15:22.236 on the television one time. It was before first I 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:24.276 ever saw him, and I was it was like a 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:27.196 very short show and it was Dylan sitting on the 0:15:27.276 --> 0:15:28.956 edge of a stage somewhere. It's maybe one of the 0:15:28.996 --> 0:15:31.316 first appearances of him in in TV. And he was 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:34.276 I said, wow, what is this? You know? My dad says, 0:15:34.756 --> 0:15:37.236 and he wasn't into folk music, but he said, this 0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:40.236 is the real thing. This is the real thing. He said. 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:43.356 I knew guys in the army that sounded like this. 0:15:43.356 --> 0:15:45.796 This is he was stationed in Mississippi for a WI said, 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:48.116 this sound reminds me of that guy sitting on the 0:15:48.196 --> 0:15:50.036 edge of his bed playing the guitar. In the barracks. 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:52.596 You know this is like this is, And so he 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:56.156 sort of validated Bob Dylan very early on for me 0:15:56.196 --> 0:15:58.476 at a time when and what happened to meeting, of course, 0:15:58.596 --> 0:16:02.276 is that all these songs that he had written were 0:16:02.396 --> 0:16:05.236 learned by everybody. And the thing is that the job 0:16:05.356 --> 0:16:09.796 still was to make it your own. So I started 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:12.116 writing songs at that right around that same time. And 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:14.756 what you write about what you know? You know? Your 0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:17.956 dad he what instrument to be playing. He played piano, 0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:21.556 but he loved horns, He loved the trumpet, and he 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:25.996 loved the trombone. He played a lot of Jack Teagarden, 0:16:26.036 --> 0:16:28.796 and he would walk around the house playing the trombone, saying, listen, 0:16:28.836 --> 0:16:31.116 there's only three positions. Can you check out how many 0:16:31.156 --> 0:16:33.916 notes he's playing. But he's only never forget having like 0:16:33.956 --> 0:16:36.836 combinations of thin of keys and fingering you only they 0:16:36.956 --> 0:16:40.316 have that, that and that and then it's your lip. 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:42.956 And so he's walked. He's fascinated with how the trombone 0:16:42.996 --> 0:16:44.516 is played. He's not he's not good at it. But 0:16:44.716 --> 0:16:47.196 he actually did one one time get to play with 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:51.236 Jack Teagarden and he went up with Teagarden's tie and 0:16:51.276 --> 0:16:55.036 Tea Garden. Evidently Tea Garden like typed his tie. They 0:16:55.116 --> 0:16:57.236 left the jack had at six in the morning or something, 0:16:57.276 --> 0:16:58.876 and like te Garden had a stein. So he wanted 0:16:58.916 --> 0:17:01.076 him and it was it was like a tallest amount. 0:17:01.116 --> 0:17:03.516 It was like a for eyes possession of his Also 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:05.836 a picture of him playing with Django Reinhard. He was 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:09.556 a really good musician and he wasn't in rains band. 0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:11.916 He actually booked Ryan Hard for these parties and he 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:14.396 would get to sit in Wow. So we I grew 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.196 up with that sort of lore. But when folk music happened, 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:21.076 it was taking on all this information about the world, 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:25.396 about our history, and about who really is here, you know. 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:27.396 So even though I lived in this like really sterile 0:17:27.396 --> 0:17:30.676 little tract home in Orange County with my family, I mean, 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:33.796 the conduit and the lifeline to the to the world 0:17:33.876 --> 0:17:36.996 outside was music. A lot of musicians I've talked to 0:17:37.876 --> 0:17:43.636 their their fathers were jazz musicians, and often they didn't 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:48.756 like their kids musical choices. My father. I remember my 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:51.076 father coming to see my one of my gigs. I 0:17:51.356 --> 0:17:54.716 vaguely understood that that there wasn't a lot about my 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:59.076 singing or my even my my my songs were not sophisticated. 0:17:59.116 --> 0:18:01.356 You know. It wasn't like he was. He was not 0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:03.996 going to get to cross the Jordan, you know, and 0:18:04.076 --> 0:18:06.596 come go off into the future with us. You know. 0:18:06.636 --> 0:18:11.436 He was like even in jazz, you know, he told him, 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:15.276 you like, he said like, yeah, Miles Davis, Wow, you 0:18:15.316 --> 0:18:19.876 know what I thought? Really? Oh no, I thought, okay, well, 0:18:19.876 --> 0:18:23.316 you're definitely telling me where you're at. But we we 0:18:23.396 --> 0:18:25.876 diverged on so many things. He said, you and your 0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:30.116 friends think you're nonconformist. We didn't really, And then they 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:32.716 were to use that where there wasn't the issue. He said, 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:34.716 but you're gonna have to cut your hair, and you're 0:18:34.716 --> 0:18:36.676 gonna have to You're gonna want to raise a family, 0:18:36.676 --> 0:18:37.956 and then you're gonna have to get a job and 0:18:37.996 --> 0:18:40.716 cut your hair. And I thought, I don't think so. 0:18:42.076 --> 0:18:44.756 You know, so there are all ways in which that 0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:48.396 you don't necessarily have to follow your parents the dictates 0:18:48.396 --> 0:18:50.876 of their their their view. But at the same time 0:18:50.916 --> 0:18:54.596 he gave me, he gave me such an incredible love 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:59.516 and appreciation for music, jazz, for for and an understanding 0:18:59.556 --> 0:19:02.916 of who's here terms of you know, racially, you know, 0:19:03.356 --> 0:19:06.236 the deities in our house were like I say, Ella Fitzgerald, 0:19:06.276 --> 0:19:09.556 and I vaguely understood that he didn't have that find 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:12.516 an appreciation for what I was doing. He'd come to 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:14.476 my gig and at the end of the gig he said, 0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:17.556 I don't lose that drummer. You know about all he 0:19:17.556 --> 0:19:21.556 could say. And he's right. I mean, like you'd think, 0:19:21.636 --> 0:19:24.556 you know, he really dug Russconsle's drumming. And but I 0:19:24.996 --> 0:19:27.556 had him come over and I wanted to send him 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:29.796 down and play him the pretender. I mean, there's a 0:19:29.836 --> 0:19:33.436 song for him in the second half. He was asleep 0:19:33.516 --> 0:19:36.036 before we got to the second half, you know, and 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:38.796 I just went, well, that's just about perfect. You know, 0:19:39.076 --> 0:19:41.796 he didn't hear he didn't hear Daddy's tune. No, he 0:19:41.916 --> 0:19:46.156 didn't wow when he talked about like cutting your hair 0:19:46.316 --> 0:19:49.276 and were those his resentments that he had to he 0:19:49.356 --> 0:19:51.756 wasn't resentful about it. He just thought that we were, 0:19:51.796 --> 0:19:54.596 you know, young and so on our wild oats, but 0:19:54.636 --> 0:19:56.996 that there was he was describing what he had done, 0:19:56.996 --> 0:20:00.716 which was he said he never thought he was a 0:20:00.756 --> 0:20:03.436 professional musician. He always thought of himself as an amateur, 0:20:04.156 --> 0:20:07.476 and that he had never really followed through, or that 0:20:07.596 --> 0:20:10.436 he'd gotten the job the jobs that he needed to 0:20:10.476 --> 0:20:12.756 do to have a family. But he also told me 0:20:13.116 --> 0:20:16.316 really wild stuff, like he enjoyed being in the army 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:19.036 because he didn't have to think and to be to 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:21.916 be fourteen and to hear that, it was like all 0:20:21.916 --> 0:20:25.716 I needed to know. That's okay, that kind of disqualifies 0:20:25.756 --> 0:20:30.156 you as a as an advisor, you know. But he 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:33.196 also he'd say the coolest stuff, like one time he 0:20:33.276 --> 0:20:36.116 said he was over in my house, he was leaving. 0:20:36.116 --> 0:20:38.356 He said, well, play good. But you didn't have to 0:20:38.396 --> 0:20:41.356 say he is. He was an English teacher and a 0:20:41.396 --> 0:20:43.996 metic who correct us every night at the dinner table. 0:20:44.556 --> 0:20:46.876 We didn't have to learn grammar or any of the 0:20:47.076 --> 0:20:49.956 rules of because we were just forced to speak correctly 0:20:49.996 --> 0:20:52.716 all the time, not forced, but just admonished if we didn't. 0:20:53.356 --> 0:20:56.276 And I said to him, play good. What do you mean, dude, 0:20:56.316 --> 0:20:58.556 don't you mean play well? He said, yeah, but I've 0:20:58.596 --> 0:21:04.156 never heard of musicians say play well, play good? So 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:07.116 how old were you then when you went to New York? 0:21:07.756 --> 0:21:10.836 I was eighteen, and you'd been playing around la and 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:14.556 then what took you to New York? I've been playing 0:21:14.596 --> 0:21:17.716 out in Orange County, you know, coffee houses and stuff, 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:19.996 and I was living in Orange County. My friends would 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:22.676 drive into New York and there was like a they 0:21:22.716 --> 0:21:25.236 needed a third person to share with the gas and 0:21:25.596 --> 0:21:28.756 share in the driving. We made that trip in three 0:21:28.836 --> 0:21:30.556 and a quarter days. You know, it was like just 0:21:30.636 --> 0:21:33.596 straight through driving around the clock. We were delivering a 0:21:33.596 --> 0:21:37.756