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Speaker 1: Pushkin. In the nineteen seventies, Jackson Brown was known as

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Speaker 1: one of the originators of the care free California classic

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Speaker 1: rock sound, with hits like Doctor My Eyes and Running

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Speaker 1: on Empty Looking. As his career progressed, Jackson Brown's knack

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Speaker 1: for writing soul searching lyrics turned more political. He began

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Speaker 1: to write protest songs that addressed weighty issues like environmental

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Speaker 1: degradation in US foreign policy. Brown continues to use his

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Speaker 1: music as a vehicle for change today. His latest album,

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Speaker 1: Downhill from Everywhere, was inspired by a documentary about the

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Speaker 1: Pacific garbage back and our impact on the planning. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, Bruce Headlam talks to Jackson Brown about how

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Speaker 1: he is able to turn catastrophic headlines into palatable songs.

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Speaker 1: Brown also talks about moving to New York City when

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Speaker 1: he was eighteen and writing songs for the Velvet Undergrounds Nico.

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Speaker 1: Brown also remembers the time his former label boss, David

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Speaker 1: Geffen shut down his attempt to quote the Black Panthers

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Speaker 1: Bobby Seal and a song. This is broken record liner

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Speaker 1: notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce

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Speaker 1: Headlam and Jackson Brown. I want to talk about your

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Speaker 1: new album. Of course, First of all, where did the

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Speaker 1: title come from? It comes from an oceanographer named Captain

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Speaker 1: Charles Moore, the guy that discovered the North Pacific gyre

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Speaker 1: and all the plastic squirreling and the jar has become

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Speaker 1: known as the Pacific garbage patch. He's the guy that

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Speaker 1: sort of discovered it and sort of brought out to

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Speaker 1: attention of the rest of the world. And in talking

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Speaker 1: about the ocean and our impact on the ourc change

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Speaker 1: says that's the ocean is downhill from everywhere, and that's

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Speaker 1: where the title comes from. And it's really at the

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Speaker 1: heart of what the song is talking about us humans

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Speaker 1: impact on the planet. You know, this album it has

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Speaker 1: political songs like that one the Dreamer. It's got other

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Speaker 1: songs that deal with current issues. And this surprised me.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like a very optimistic album to me. The

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Speaker 1: personal song seemed very optimistic, which is not always something

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Speaker 1: I associate with your music. It wasn't wistful or valedictory.

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Speaker 1: Were you in a good mood when you when you

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Speaker 1: wrote this album? Were you in a good place? This

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Speaker 1: album got written over a period of years, so I

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Speaker 1: think that that maybe I have a desire to be

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Speaker 1: optimistic or to be be hopeful. Not optimistic, but to

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Speaker 1: be hopeful. The act of writings song, I think I

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Speaker 1: reflectively want to leave things in there'll be some light,

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Speaker 1: some possibility for a positive outcome, you know. In still

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Speaker 1: looking for something, Looking for Love, you're you know, minutes

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Speaker 1: from downtown. There are the songs of somebody who's kind

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Speaker 1: of in the game and enjoying it. The whole album

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Speaker 1: has a sense of dealing with things that are interminable.

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Speaker 1: They things that are going on and on and on,

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Speaker 1: problems where they're before and are there now. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: about moving forward, and it's about trying to find find

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Speaker 1: your way, you know forward. As far as being in

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Speaker 1: the game, you know, you got to think that you are,

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Speaker 1: even if you're not, come on, you must be in

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Speaker 1: the game. Please give us hope here to want to

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Speaker 1: make music, you know, you have to have that's the thing,

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Speaker 1: just that that you want to. You know, they still

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Speaker 1: want to. I mean, it'd be easy to get tired

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Speaker 1: of it. But I think I think that probably the

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Speaker 1: reason I don't is I I don't do it all

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Speaker 1: the time. I'm not I'm not releasing album after album,

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Speaker 1: and you know, releasing an album every year or two.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just I mean, the song the Dreamer.

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Speaker 1: I've been trying to write that many years ago, and

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Speaker 1: it just sort of took a turn. I met this guy,

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Speaker 1: Eugene Rodriguez, and showed him this old song idea I had,

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Speaker 1: which began with the you know, like the Minutemen being

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Speaker 1: down on the border enforcing you know, trying to you know, vigilantism,

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Speaker 1: and it just turned into a song about about a

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Speaker 1: young person come into this country and giving her future

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Speaker 1: to this country, and that is so optimistic. There's so

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Speaker 1: much hope in that in the in the midst of

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Speaker 1: the debacle that is our immigration policy and the years

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Speaker 1: of trying to deny you know, access to people who

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Speaker 1: are fundamentally here before we were, and you know, to

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Speaker 1: a great extent. You know, people have been coming from

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Speaker 1: Mexico to California or Arizona, you know, since before they

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Speaker 1: were in the Union. It's just like they're the best

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Speaker 1: among US immigrants. My grandmother came here when she was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: so there's a lot of there's a lot about this

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Speaker 1: country that are the optimism that people have when they

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Speaker 1: come here. Folded together with the difficulties they endure. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a mixture of both, you know, hardship, optimism,

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Speaker 1: you know, struggle in each all of these songs. I

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Speaker 1: think you mentioned the Dreamer, and I'm wondering when you

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Speaker 1: when you do write a song that way, you know,

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Speaker 1: because your personal songs, people relate to them because the

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Speaker 1: sort of commonality of emotions that people have and the

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Speaker 1: dilemmas they face in life. When you're approaching a more

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Speaker 1: political song, do you say, I want to write something

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Speaker 1: about immigration because it's wrong? I mean, how do you

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Speaker 1: get from there? How do you get from this sort

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Speaker 1: of high level New York Times headline to the emotional

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Speaker 1: heart of a song like that. Yeah, that's a good

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Speaker 1: question because the thing that I've tried, I've tried to

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Speaker 1: do in the past sometimes to try to broach a

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Speaker 1: subject strategically and try to draw people into the subject

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Speaker 1: and taught what matters to each of us. And there's

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Speaker 1: the problem with anything political is if you're too oblique,

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Speaker 1: they won't know what you're talking about. And if you're

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Speaker 1: too direct, they run the risk of making people feel

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Speaker 1: that they're being sort of scolded or lectured. Also, I

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Speaker 1: told myself, look, I want this to sound like the

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Speaker 1: way it would sound like if you and I were

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Speaker 1: drinking in a bar and we're just talking about what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the world, not that as if you're

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Speaker 1: some sort of elevated place and lecturing people about something

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Speaker 1: that should know about but dount or that they should care.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you have to make people. You have

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Speaker 1: to get to people where where they do care and

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Speaker 1: where what they do know about. In the case of

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Speaker 1: Downhill from Everywhere, it's not exactly it's not exactly political

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Speaker 1: because there's no polemic. There is just like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of compounding and sort of contrasting images, you know, the prison,

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Speaker 1: the mall, factory, farming, the hospital. And the fun of

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Speaker 1: it was to make it flow out of it so

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Speaker 1: that these seem like extreme consciousness, and sometimes it was.

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Speaker 1: But you have to make those words sound good with

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Speaker 1: rock and roll. And if what I really wanted was

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Speaker 1: a song that you don't have to listen to the

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Speaker 1: words to at all, you would just listen. You might

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Speaker 1: hear some of them going by while you're listening to

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Speaker 1: the guitar part, or the or the drum based and

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Speaker 1: the drums, and I just wanted to feel good. I

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Speaker 1: decided not to talk. I mean, I had like a

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Speaker 1: verse that was gonna you know, it wasn't like going

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Speaker 1: to name Trump. I just didn't want a song with

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Speaker 1: his name in it. I wasn't going to refer to him,

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Speaker 1: but I was gonna be talking about like, you know,

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Speaker 1: downhill from the White House, downhill from the dump, downhill

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Speaker 1: from that's something, or the downhill from the biopsy and

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Speaker 1: that suspicious lump and yeah, right, but that's I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's the editor in me that said, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: can put that aside. Keep looking. Do you think as

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Speaker 1: a result of this last year, when you go back

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Speaker 1: out in the road, are there songs of yours from

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Speaker 1: your catalog? You say? You know, suddenly this makes sense

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Speaker 1: now if I if I take this out in a

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Speaker 1: way it might not have two years ago. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure the process of deciding what you're gonna play is

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Speaker 1: a really involved saying. I'd say I'm more involved in

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Speaker 1: with which of my old songs the audience wants to

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Speaker 1: hear after having been shut down for this amount of time,

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Speaker 1: In which of my new songs I can you know,

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Speaker 1: I can I can expect to get a real, real

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Speaker 1: strong listening to. You know, there were times when I

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Speaker 1: went out and tried to play every every new song

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Speaker 1: on an album in a set, and you wind up playing,

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Speaker 1: you know, more than half the songs would be these

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Speaker 1: new songs. And I got sort of chided by some

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Speaker 1: of my friends, like, and people really come to hear

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Speaker 1: you what they already know, and you might want to

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Speaker 1: just like cut that down to two or three songs.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, I think that this is

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Speaker 1: a really important time where people do want to know

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Speaker 1: what's what's transpired. And these a lot of these songs

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Speaker 1: were you know, written before and the pandemic, and they're

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Speaker 1: about the last several years or their or their culminations.

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Speaker 1: Some of the songs go back a lot longer than that.

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Speaker 1: And Man of Fact, Downhill from Everywhere was the song

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Speaker 1: I was writing for a long time. And what I think,

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Speaker 1: it's probably not going to be apparent to anybody, you know,

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Speaker 1: but how would anybody know? But I mean, I've got

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Speaker 1: on my laptop screener, I've got like all these sound

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Speaker 1: checks from trying to play that song. I play these

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Speaker 1: things back and there are moments when, like I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's the way the drums have to play this song. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's or the time that Greg Lea's played this incredible

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Speaker 1: like dang dann't get that deck out, this really great

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Speaker 1: guitar leg. He figured it out all these sound checks

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Speaker 1: where something happened and I go, oh yeah. And then

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Speaker 1: there was the time where I cut the song and

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Speaker 1: and I say, look, I'm I'm screwing us up. Let

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Speaker 1: me just try to play my guitar black Jeff, you

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Speaker 1: sing it and he's singing my keyboarders. The guy was

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Speaker 1: singing this line down here from the water. Well, he's

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Speaker 1: swinging in a certain way. He just hears things that way.

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Speaker 1: He goes like don godd dump. So he's swinging the

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Speaker 1: track that way with his la la laws whatever. He's

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Speaker 1: singing to lead the band, whereas the melody really goes

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Speaker 1: all got data and it's against the beat, which provides

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Speaker 1: a kind of tension and you can get away with it,

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Speaker 1: but it's not as in the I tried to convert

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Speaker 1: all the phrasing to his phrasing, and that really didn't work,

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Speaker 1: throwing off the words again and then coming back to Minka.

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Speaker 1: I gotta go back to my Then I just realized,

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Speaker 1: I said, just I can have him answer it. I

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Speaker 1: can have him reaffirmed that rhythm with his vote Downhill

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Speaker 1: from the fat from the band in the room, Downhill

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Speaker 1: from the you know, so I gave. I wrote a

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Speaker 1: bunch of lines for him to sing too, and Downhill.

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Speaker 1: I thought, as cool as like getting my getting my

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Speaker 1: singers to sing Downhill from the Anthropascene. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: have one of us say, look it up downhill. You

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Speaker 1: know it's fun because I'm writing for a band like

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Speaker 1: I called in writing that song, I really called the

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Speaker 1: guitar part from Greg and a vocal phrasing from Jeff.

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Speaker 1: I mean a moment where Fritz was kind of channeling

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Speaker 1: the Stones and trying to play this thing. Just make

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Speaker 1: the song about music first, you know, And so do

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Speaker 1: most songs. For you to start with lyrical ideas, it's

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Speaker 1: usually some piece of lyric and music at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I feel, or a little little bit of music at

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Speaker 1: the same time. But it's usually a phrase. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you're still you're a slow writer, aren't you. You've noticed, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's the fastest you've ever written a song? One of

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Speaker 1: the fast songs was on this album A little soon

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Speaker 1: to say, came up pretty quickly. What's a little quickly

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Speaker 1: for you? That I had this idea and a month

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Speaker 1: later I really started to write it. And then in

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Speaker 1: a matter of about a week or so, I had

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, wow, yeah, stuff happens. I got

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Speaker 1: a phone call in the middle of writing this verst

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Speaker 1: and I got a phone from a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: who's who I worked with, like my production guy, like

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Speaker 1: I ever told him to do, but had that conversation

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Speaker 1: with him. I just led me into this whole reassessment

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Speaker 1: of my whole you know, like I didn't find much

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Speaker 1: wisdom when I was when time was on my side.

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Speaker 1: That verse came from like a feeling I had from

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Speaker 1: a conversation on the while writing the song. It's not

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Speaker 1: like I set out to say something. It's just you.

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Speaker 1: It's a process of uncovering things that in you. You know,

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Speaker 1: within you. We'll be right back with more from Jackson

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Speaker 1: Brown after this break. We're back with more from Bruce

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Speaker 1: Headlam and Jackson Brown. You are associated with Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: in a way that few people are associated with places.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe Kurt Cobain and Seattle, or Willie Nelson

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Speaker 1: in Austin, but you are this Los Angeles character. So

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in that early part of your career when

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Speaker 1: you left, when you went to New York to work.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me a bit about that, because it

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Speaker 1: was Dylan who inspired you to a certain extent. And

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Speaker 1: what was it like for you're very young a kid

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Speaker 1: to leave LA and go to New York. Well, I

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Speaker 1: grew up in LA until I was about thirteen. But

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Speaker 1: then at the time that I went to New York,

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Speaker 1: I've been living in Orange County. My family had moved

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Speaker 1: out to Fullerton. You know. I kicked myself that I

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Speaker 1: didn't go somehow get a job at Defender Factory and

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Speaker 1: like have like a stash of sixties you know, stratocasters

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Speaker 1: to show for it. But I was really, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was really immersed in folk music and Dylan, and continue

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Speaker 1: to be immersed in roots music and folk music after Dylan.

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Speaker 1: Sort of. See, there's a thing about folk music is

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Speaker 1: that you learn a song and you make it your own.

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Speaker 1: You either combine maybe you've combined Dave Van Rogg's version

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Speaker 1: of stagger Lee with Mississippi John Hurt's version of Staggerly.

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Speaker 1: You take the best of those versions and you put

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Speaker 1: them together and to put it in your own. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I wrote a verse a version of stagger Lye that

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Speaker 1: in which I'm combine those versions and I'm quoting Bobby Seal,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Black Panthers, you know, like Bobby Seals says,

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Speaker 1: stagger Lee was the brother off the block whose actions

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Speaker 1: had to had to speak for him because he couldn't

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Speaker 1: relate to talk. Listen, all you millionaires is something you

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Speaker 1: should know. He's his ship together. So I'm you gonna

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Speaker 1: have to go? Is that a political song? The fact

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Speaker 1: is that David Geffen heard that an he went, huh, women,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with millionaires? What's wrong? We wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a millionaire And it didn't make my album to make

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Speaker 1: the first album. But just so you know, like what

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Speaker 1: I was referring to is that the fact that you

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Speaker 1: made these folk songs speak for you and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just like summoning up an arcane song and rendering it

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Speaker 1: faithfully from you know, we made have started with that.

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Speaker 1: I always Joan Baena's incredible songs that she curated on

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Speaker 1: her albums, you know, but she did something to them.

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Speaker 1: She cast a spell on them that was brand new

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Speaker 1: and traditional and ancient at the same time. So that's

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Speaker 1: what we started happening. And Dylan, Dylan did it, you know,

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Speaker 1: and they did it so well that you sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, led the whole procession off into like a

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Speaker 1: brand new direction. And I always living in Orange County

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Speaker 1: by the time that start happening, and when I got

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Speaker 1: involved in folk music. Before that, I listened to my

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Speaker 1: father's music in Dixie Land, so some of the great

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Speaker 1: singers Eelaphus Gerald and man. In fact, we saw Dylan

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Speaker 1: on the television one time. It was before first I

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Speaker 1: ever saw him, and I was it was like a

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Speaker 1: very short show and it was Dylan sitting on the

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Speaker 1: edge of a stage somewhere. It's maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: first appearances of him in in TV. And he was

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Speaker 1: I said, wow, what is this? You know? My dad says,

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Speaker 1: and he wasn't into folk music, but he said, this

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Speaker 1: is the real thing. This is the real thing. He said.

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Speaker 1: I knew guys in the army that sounded like this.

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Speaker 1: This is he was stationed in Mississippi for a WI said,

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Speaker 1: this sound reminds me of that guy sitting on the

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Speaker 1: edge of his bed playing the guitar. In the barracks.

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Speaker 1: You know this is like this is, And so he

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Speaker 1: sort of validated Bob Dylan very early on for me

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Speaker 1: at a time when and what happened to meeting, of course,

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Speaker 1: is that all these songs that he had written were

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Speaker 1: learned by everybody. And the thing is that the job

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Speaker 1: still was to make it your own. So I started

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Speaker 1: writing songs at that right around that same time. And

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Speaker 1: what you write about what you know? You know? Your

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Speaker 1: dad he what instrument to be playing. He played piano,

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Speaker 1: but he loved horns, He loved the trumpet, and he

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Speaker 1: loved the trombone. He played a lot of Jack Teagarden,

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Speaker 1: and he would walk around the house playing the trombone, saying, listen,

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Speaker 1: there's only three positions. Can you check out how many

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Speaker 1: notes he's playing. But he's only never forget having like

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Speaker 1: combinations of thin of keys and fingering you only they

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Speaker 1: have that, that and that and then it's your lip.

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Speaker 1: And so he's walked. He's fascinated with how the trombone

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Speaker 1: is played. He's not he's not good at it. But

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Speaker 1: he actually did one one time get to play with

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Speaker 1: Jack Teagarden and he went up with Teagarden's tie and

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Speaker 1: Tea Garden. Evidently Tea Garden like typed his tie. They

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Speaker 1: left the jack had at six in the morning or something,

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Speaker 1: and like te Garden had a stein. So he wanted

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Speaker 1: him and it was it was like a tallest amount.

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Speaker 1: It was like a for eyes possession of his Also

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Speaker 1: a picture of him playing with Django Reinhard. He was

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Speaker 1: a really good musician and he wasn't in rains band.

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Speaker 1: He actually booked Ryan Hard for these parties and he

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Speaker 1: would get to sit in Wow. So we I grew

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Speaker 1: up with that sort of lore. But when folk music happened,

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Speaker 1: it was taking on all this information about the world,

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Speaker 1: about our history, and about who really is here, you know.

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Speaker 1: So even though I lived in this like really sterile

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Speaker 1: little tract home in Orange County with my family, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the conduit and the lifeline to the to the world

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Speaker 1: outside was music. A lot of musicians I've talked to

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Speaker 1: their their fathers were jazz musicians, and often they didn't

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Speaker 1: like their kids musical choices. My father. I remember my

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Speaker 1: father coming to see my one of my gigs. I

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Speaker 1: vaguely understood that that there wasn't a lot about my

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Speaker 1: singing or my even my my my songs were not sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't like he was. He was not

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Speaker 1: going to get to cross the Jordan, you know, and

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Speaker 1: come go off into the future with us. You know.

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Speaker 1: He was like even in jazz, you know, he told him,

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Speaker 1: you like, he said like, yeah, Miles Davis, Wow, you

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Speaker 1: know what I thought? Really? Oh no, I thought, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: you're definitely telling me where you're at. But we we

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Speaker 1: diverged on so many things. He said, you and your

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Speaker 1: friends think you're nonconformist. We didn't really, And then they

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Speaker 1: were to use that where there wasn't the issue. He said,

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Speaker 1: but you're gonna have to cut your hair, and you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to You're gonna want to raise a family,

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Speaker 1: and then you're gonna have to get a job and

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Speaker 1: cut your hair. And I thought, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: You know, so there are all ways in which that

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have to follow your parents the dictates

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Speaker 1: of their their their view. But at the same time

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Speaker 1: he gave me, he gave me such an incredible love

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Speaker 1: and appreciation for music, jazz, for for and an understanding

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Speaker 1: of who's here terms of you know, racially, you know,

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Speaker 1: the deities in our house were like I say, Ella Fitzgerald,

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Speaker 1: and I vaguely understood that he didn't have that find

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Speaker 1: an appreciation for what I was doing. He'd come to

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Speaker 1: my gig and at the end of the gig he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't lose that drummer. You know about all he

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Speaker 1: could say. And he's right. I mean, like you'd think,

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Speaker 1: you know, he really dug Russconsle's drumming. And but I

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Speaker 1: had him come over and I wanted to send him

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Speaker 1: down and play him the pretender. I mean, there's a

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Speaker 1: song for him in the second half. He was asleep

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Speaker 1: before we got to the second half, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I just went, well, that's just about perfect. You know,

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Speaker 1: he didn't hear he didn't hear Daddy's tune. No, he

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Speaker 1: didn't wow when he talked about like cutting your hair

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Speaker 1: and were those his resentments that he had to he

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Speaker 1: wasn't resentful about it. He just thought that we were,

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Speaker 1: you know, young and so on our wild oats, but

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Speaker 1: that there was he was describing what he had done,

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Speaker 1: which was he said he never thought he was a

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Speaker 1: professional musician. He always thought of himself as an amateur,

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Speaker 1: and that he had never really followed through, or that

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Speaker 1: he'd gotten the job the jobs that he needed to

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Speaker 1: do to have a family. But he also told me

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Speaker 1: really wild stuff, like he enjoyed being in the army

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Speaker 1: because he didn't have to think and to be to

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Speaker 1: be fourteen and to hear that, it was like all

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Speaker 1: I needed to know. That's okay, that kind of disqualifies

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Speaker 1: you as a as an advisor, you know. But he

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Speaker 1: also he'd say the coolest stuff, like one time he

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Speaker 1: said he was over in my house, he was leaving.

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Speaker 1: He said, well, play good. But you didn't have to

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Speaker 1: say he is. He was an English teacher and a

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Speaker 1: metic who correct us every night at the dinner table.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have to learn grammar or any of the

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Speaker 1: rules of because we were just forced to speak correctly

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Speaker 1: all the time, not forced, but just admonished if we didn't.

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Speaker 1: And I said to him, play good. What do you mean, dude,

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Speaker 1: don't you mean play well? He said, yeah, but I've

390
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Speaker 1: never heard of musicians say play well, play good? So

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Speaker 1: how old were you then when you went to New York?

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Speaker 1: I was eighteen, and you'd been playing around la and

393
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Speaker 1: then what took you to New York? I've been playing

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Speaker 1: out in Orange County, you know, coffee houses and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I was living in Orange County. My friends would

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Speaker 1: drive into New York and there was like a they

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Speaker 1: needed a third person to share with the gas and

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Speaker 1: share in the driving. We made that trip in three

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Speaker 1: and a quarter days. You know, it was like just

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Speaker 1: straight through driving around the clock. We were delivering a

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Speaker 1: car to my friend's family up in I think it

402
00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:39,716
Speaker 1: was up in Niagara Falls that he had to deliver

403
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Speaker 1: this rambler American station wagon, and so we drove it

404
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Speaker 1: straight to New York and went to the another friend's

405
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Speaker 1: house who was living on the on the Lower East Side.

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Speaker 1: So I had a well, yeah, I was from I

407
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Speaker 1: was from a set of players and that hung around

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Speaker 1: a club called the Paradox in tust And the reason

409
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Speaker 1: they called it the Paradox was it was traditional music

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Speaker 1: for contemporary minds. Is what the guy's business cards sent.

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Speaker 1: And in a way it was in that guy. The

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Speaker 1: guy that owned the club sang a lot of Hank

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Speaker 1: william and that he and his partner their dream was

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Speaker 1: to have a club where people came and made music.

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Speaker 1: And in that club I heard Sonny Cherry Brown, McGee,

416
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Speaker 1: Jack Elliott, all these musicians that would come and play

417
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Speaker 1: the Ash Grove in LA would always be looking for

418
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Speaker 1: another gig, and there was a gig out in Orange

419
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Speaker 1: County that they could go play a weekend, you know,

420
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Speaker 1: the ad and have to fray the costs of coming

421
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Speaker 1: west in the first place. So there was a really

422
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Speaker 1: strong folk scene and there were a bunch of songwriters,

423
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Speaker 1: and these guys hired my friend Steve Noon and two

424
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Speaker 1: he got a gig there. It was really a big

425
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Speaker 1: deal that one of us, one of us sort of

426
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Speaker 1: rug rats, were like, I had a gig, he had,

427
00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,396
Speaker 1: Like we could go hear each other's and Steve sang

428
00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:51,996
Speaker 1: some songs in mine and sang songs that he had

429
00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:54,676
Speaker 1: written with Great Copeland. And these are my mentors, you know,

430
00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,356
Speaker 1: guys that were two years older than me, but let

431
00:22:57,396 --> 00:22:59,956
Speaker 1: me hang with them. But when we went to New York,

432
00:23:00,396 --> 00:23:02,956
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened in that first week

433
00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:04,996
Speaker 1: or two that was there is that Tim Buckley had

434
00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:07,756
Speaker 1: a gig at the at the Dam, and Niko was

435
00:23:07,956 --> 00:23:10,996
Speaker 1: on the billing and she was being accompanied by Sterling

436
00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:15,516
Speaker 1: Morrison and apparently sometimes it would be Sterling, sometimes it

437
00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:17,596
Speaker 1: would be lou Reid, sometimes it would be John Cale

438
00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:21,436
Speaker 1: but she was leaving the Velvet underground and to be

439
00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:24,476
Speaker 1: a solo artist. And I think that it was the vibe.

440
00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:26,396
Speaker 1: I don't really know this for sure, but the vibe

441
00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:27,996
Speaker 1: was that it was all something that they were all

442
00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:31,276
Speaker 1: agreed about. I say, she stayed in the Velvets might

443
00:23:31,276 --> 00:23:34,436
Speaker 1: have been a more mainstream band, you know. On the

444
00:23:34,436 --> 00:23:36,316
Speaker 1: other hand, I don't think they care that much about that.

445
00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:40,716
Speaker 1: Webb's mainstream. They were actually like real outliers. But I

446
00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:44,396
Speaker 1: think that they were helping her along with her transition

447
00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:47,916
Speaker 1: to a solo artist. So she offered Tim Bucket the

448
00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,036
Speaker 1: job of a company or because I don't think that

449
00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:52,236
Speaker 1: I don't maybe didn't go well with her that one

450
00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:54,036
Speaker 1: night it was one guy, one night it was another guy.

451
00:23:54,356 --> 00:23:57,276
Speaker 1: So she wanted her own accompanies, and he came in

452
00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,676
Speaker 1: and said that there was this shot. He said, I

453
00:23:59,676 --> 00:24:02,116
Speaker 1: don't think she understands that I have like a career

454
00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:04,836
Speaker 1: that I'm like, he doesn't know about me and know

455
00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:06,916
Speaker 1: I've got a gig in Boston next week. I'm not

456
00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:09,236
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to become her accompany. And

457
00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:11,836
Speaker 1: he knew I was destitute. I came to New York

458
00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:16,956
Speaker 1: with fifty bucks in my pocket and a Signal Oil

459
00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,436
Speaker 1: credit card that I could use if it was an emergency,

460
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:24,916
Speaker 1: my mom's credit card, you know, and without without clothes

461
00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:26,556
Speaker 1: for winter. It was the snow on the ground, and

462
00:24:26,596 --> 00:24:28,636
Speaker 1: I was wearing these loafers, you know, and like, I

463
00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,036
Speaker 1: don't know what people thought about us with California, like

464
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:34,156
Speaker 1: wearing T shirts and loafers and stuff in the snow,

465
00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:38,116
Speaker 1: and like what, you know, what are you doing? I

466
00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:40,316
Speaker 1: had that job for just a little while. It didn't

467
00:24:40,476 --> 00:24:43,276
Speaker 1: didn't last very long. I wanted wanting to go back home,

468
00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:46,236
Speaker 1: and but you gave you gave her some songs like

469
00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,916
Speaker 1: these Days, which she made it. Yeah, during that time,

470
00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,036
Speaker 1: that song that that herd Chelsea Girl record was recorded

471
00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:56,076
Speaker 1: and I was on a session. I mean we recorded

472
00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:58,516
Speaker 1: what we did. I mean, she had learned three of

473
00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:01,316
Speaker 1: my songs and they're they're on that record. And I

474
00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:05,156
Speaker 1: also accompanied her on a Tim Harden song that where

475
00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:08,116
Speaker 1: Tim Harden wrote a song about Lenny Bruce, a Dylan

476
00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:10,396
Speaker 1: song called keep It with Mind, which no one had

477
00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:13,716
Speaker 1: ever heard before. It was like she she was curating

478
00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:16,916
Speaker 1: songs the way really. I mean, I compare her to

479
00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,516
Speaker 1: Judy Collins, because Judy Collins was the one who would

480
00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:22,396
Speaker 1: make an album was something before we were coming to

481
00:25:22,476 --> 00:25:24,676
Speaker 1: New York. I mean a song of her record of

482
00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:27,236
Speaker 1: her lot was her album in which she had Circle

483
00:25:27,316 --> 00:25:31,996
Speaker 1: Game and an Obscure Donovan song, a Leonard Collins song,

484
00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:36,396
Speaker 1: a Jacques Brell song. Judy Collins was really like curating

485
00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,916
Speaker 1: songs and presenting them, you know, and as a singer

486
00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:42,716
Speaker 1: and as a stylist, and really nobody thinks of her

487
00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:44,996
Speaker 1: this way, of course, but that's what Niko was doing.

488
00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,956
Speaker 1: She had collected a bunch of songs. She had lou

489
00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:51,676
Speaker 1: Reed songs, you know, police Kick and Stomp, Young Love

490
00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:56,356
Speaker 1: plus runs through matted here. I remember these songs. Loui

491
00:25:56,396 --> 00:25:59,236
Speaker 1: Reid was as that he was on the he was

492
00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:00,836
Speaker 1: on the session I was on and that when I

493
00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:02,556
Speaker 1: say on the session, it was just it was just

494
00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:05,556
Speaker 1: me and him and she recorded the songs that in

495
00:26:05,636 --> 00:26:08,156
Speaker 1: that day and it was Tom Wilson, the great great

496
00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:12,196
Speaker 1: Columbia staff producer would produce Bob Dylan. I don't know

497
00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:13,916
Speaker 1: if he knew what to make of you know, what

498
00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:16,436
Speaker 1: to do as a producer. But but what one thing

499
00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:18,196
Speaker 1: they did was they took all these songs that were

500
00:26:18,276 --> 00:26:22,916
Speaker 1: basically sung that she sang with one person playing guitar,

501
00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:25,956
Speaker 1: and the day I was there, it was like the

502
00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:28,196
Speaker 1: song that I accompanied her on, the song that she

503
00:26:28,236 --> 00:26:32,356
Speaker 1: did with lou Reid. Then later they put strings on everything,

504
00:26:32,556 --> 00:26:35,476
Speaker 1: which Leco hated. She thought that was like I think

505
00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:37,476
Speaker 1: she thought it was kind of like an easy solution

506
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:39,596
Speaker 1: to like what to do with these songs. It was

507
00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:41,436
Speaker 1: like a kind of one size fits all. It was

508
00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:44,756
Speaker 1: a thing that has mastered everything. But I think it

509
00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:47,956
Speaker 1: resulted some of these songs like These Days and Fairest

510
00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:51,676
Speaker 1: of the Seasons really benefited by having the strength of string.

511
00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:55,036
Speaker 1: Arrangements were great. Chelsea Girls has had a kind of

512
00:26:55,076 --> 00:26:57,876
Speaker 1: longevity and a kind of there was a there's a

513
00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:00,876
Speaker 1: moment there that was sort of captured. So why didn't

514
00:27:00,876 --> 00:27:02,716
Speaker 1: you want to stay? I guess that was just all

515
00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:05,836
Speaker 1: I'm sick, you know. And when I think about it,

516
00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:09,796
Speaker 1: what would have happened that I stayed isn't intriguing question

517
00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:12,156
Speaker 1: for me, because I probably would have gotten in a

518
00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:14,556
Speaker 1: band all the way earlier than sooner than I did.

519
00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:18,116
Speaker 1: I would have been an East Coast musician. I would

520
00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:21,196
Speaker 1: have been exposed to more kinds of music. But when

521
00:27:21,196 --> 00:27:23,516
Speaker 1: I did, though, I mean when I came back, I

522
00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:26,316
Speaker 1: tried out for this band called the General Soul, and

523
00:27:26,356 --> 00:27:28,996
Speaker 1: there in that same audition I met Jesse Ed Davis.

524
00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:32,356
Speaker 1: And also in that same that same sort of audition

525
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:37,276
Speaker 1: session was this guy Leroy Marinell who later wrote co

526
00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:40,476
Speaker 1: wrote Whereols of London with Warren Zevon and a couple

527
00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,236
Speaker 1: other songs. So, I mean, I was I was growing,

528
00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:44,996
Speaker 1: you know, I just go here, go there. On the

529
00:27:45,036 --> 00:27:48,116
Speaker 1: way home from the airport, there was a leaked version

530
00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:52,556
Speaker 1: of Sergeant Pepper playing on the radio. Then it wasn't

531
00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:55,556
Speaker 1: supposed to be played, but somebody had this I think

532
00:27:55,596 --> 00:27:58,356
Speaker 1: b Mitchell reads. I mean, he had this copy of

533
00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:00,316
Speaker 1: that he'd been given by one of the Beatles. Then

534
00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 1: he just couldn't help himself. He played it on his

535
00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:07,396
Speaker 1: shofl people going to the Beatles run caft D and

536
00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:09,516
Speaker 1: a week later the album came out. But I mean,

537
00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:12,756
Speaker 1: all these momentous things from me to be hearing a

538
00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:14,676
Speaker 1: day on the life and she's leaving home on the

539
00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:17,156
Speaker 1: way home from an airport. But it was it was

540
00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:19,716
Speaker 1: exciting time for me. I was just you know, writing songs,

541
00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,196
Speaker 1: trying to write songs. I like I had started the

542
00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:24,236
Speaker 1: song a child in these hills when I was in

543
00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:26,836
Speaker 1: New York because it was out of homesickness. It's like,

544
00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:31,196
Speaker 1: you know, it's about being from a more pastoral place.

545
00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:34,796
Speaker 1: You know. We'll be right back with more from Jackson Brown.

546
00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:41,796
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Bruce Headlam's interview with

547
00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:44,836
Speaker 1: Jackson Brown. It's interesting to think about what kind of

548
00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:47,196
Speaker 1: songwriter you would have been had you stayed there, right,

549
00:28:47,516 --> 00:28:51,676
Speaker 1: different influences, different well, you know what I mean. Out

550
00:28:51,676 --> 00:28:54,596
Speaker 1: in Orange County where my friends and I were, you know,

551
00:28:54,636 --> 00:28:57,636
Speaker 1: like we're practically a little like squatters. I mean, somebody

552
00:28:57,716 --> 00:28:59,756
Speaker 1: to rent a house and then there'd be like twenty people,

553
00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:04,156
Speaker 1: you know. But they were really into the Velvet Underground

554
00:29:04,276 --> 00:29:06,036
Speaker 1: much more than I was. When I was in New York.

555
00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:08,676
Speaker 1: They got into the Velvet Underground and played that stuff

556
00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:11,636
Speaker 1: all the time. So I never really like got the

557
00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:16,476
Speaker 1: whole LA New York. The differences. The differences are more

558
00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:19,076
Speaker 1: apparent to me now, but at the time I didn't

559
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,716
Speaker 1: think that you were you know, and everybody I met

560
00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:25,516
Speaker 1: in New York wanted to come to California. I you know,

561
00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:28,116
Speaker 1: they find out that I was from LA and they say, oh, yay,

562
00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:30,676
Speaker 1: I want to go to la, let's go. I got

563
00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:32,556
Speaker 1: a car, you want to go. I'll be looking at

564
00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:35,916
Speaker 1: this girl with a Mustang and thinking, yeah, I want

565
00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:41,076
Speaker 1: to go. But it was an exciting time. Hey, I

566
00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:44,676
Speaker 1: was eighteen and there was a lot of world unfolding

567
00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:47,516
Speaker 1: wherever I went. I'm interested if you could go back

568
00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:50,516
Speaker 1: and talk to her eighteen year old self about writing.

569
00:29:50,956 --> 00:29:53,796
Speaker 1: I'd say what Dwayne Aldman eventually did say to me,

570
00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 1: like this folk music thing, that's okay, and you do

571
00:29:57,596 --> 00:29:59,916
Speaker 1: it really well. It's okay, but you need to be

572
00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:04,316
Speaker 1: in a band, brother, Yeah, you need to play these

573
00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 1: songs with a drummer. Come on, man, you're in the

574
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,356
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But you have the

575
00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:16,756
Speaker 1: single best induction speech I do, even if it did

576
00:30:16,956 --> 00:30:20,356
Speaker 1: really eclipse me, it right, And I think about me

577
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:24,316
Speaker 1: was a clip by that speech? No, no, no, not

578
00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:27,156
Speaker 1: at all, not at all. Now, everybody remembers the first

579
00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:31,516
Speaker 1: part of that speech, and it's Bruce Springsteen describing how

580
00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:34,196
Speaker 1: when he would play with you, you would get all

581
00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:38,916
Speaker 1: the great looking girls looking at you on stage, and

582
00:30:39,116 --> 00:30:42,036
Speaker 1: the street band would only get men and, as he said,

583
00:30:42,076 --> 00:30:45,036
Speaker 1: not very good looking man. But that's the part people remember.

584
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:46,916
Speaker 1: But I think the heart of the speech. Do you

585
00:30:46,916 --> 00:30:48,356
Speaker 1: mind if I just play you a little clip at

586
00:30:48,396 --> 00:30:51,796
Speaker 1: the heart of the speech? Is that? Okay? Jackson Brown

587
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:56,956
Speaker 1: gave us paradise lost. I always imagine what if Brian Wilson,

588
00:30:57,076 --> 00:30:59,556
Speaker 1: long after he'd taken a bite of that orange that

589
00:30:59,676 --> 00:31:02,796
Speaker 1: the serpent offered to him. What if you married that

590
00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:07,756
Speaker 1: nice girl and Caroline no I was figured that she

591
00:31:07,836 --> 00:31:11,636
Speaker 1: was pregnant anyway. And what if he moved into the

592
00:31:11,716 --> 00:31:17,196
Speaker 1: valley and had two sons. One of them would have

593
00:31:17,236 --> 00:31:21,756
Speaker 1: looked and sounded just like Jackson Brown. Kane, of course,

594
00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:28,236
Speaker 1: would have been Jackson's brother in arms, Warren's Evan. I

595
00:31:28,396 --> 00:31:32,636
Speaker 1: love your Warren, But Jackson to me, Jackson to me

596
00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:37,196
Speaker 1: was always the tempered voice of Abel, toiling in the vineyards,

597
00:31:37,676 --> 00:31:41,876
Speaker 1: here to bear the earthly burdens, confronting the impossibility of love,

598
00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:45,956
Speaker 1: here to do his father's work. Jackson's work was really

599
00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:49,716
Speaker 1: California pop gospel. Listen to the chord changes that rock

600
00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:52,476
Speaker 1: me on the water before the del You just gospel

601
00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:56,956
Speaker 1: through and through, Okay. Other than he tried to upstage

602
00:31:56,996 --> 00:32:01,116
Speaker 1: you on your night. I mean, I do think it's

603
00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:03,636
Speaker 1: one of the great speeches I've ever heard about anything.

604
00:32:03,956 --> 00:32:08,236
Speaker 1: I'm interested in your reaction to that. I was blown away,

605
00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:11,876
Speaker 1: it was. It was also so funny, but I was,

606
00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:15,516
Speaker 1: you know, my reaction, you know, it didn't escape him.

607
00:32:15,516 --> 00:32:17,756
Speaker 1: My notice that there was a camera on me watching

608
00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:20,116
Speaker 1: him say this stuff, you know, but it was it

609
00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:24,476
Speaker 1: was really, it was, it was. It was huge. You know. See,

610
00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:26,916
Speaker 1: for the longest time, I didn't know how to describe

611
00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:28,916
Speaker 1: what I did. I don't know. I didn't know that

612
00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:31,156
Speaker 1: anybody how many people really got what I did, or

613
00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:32,916
Speaker 1: how to how to describe it or what to say.

614
00:32:32,956 --> 00:32:34,876
Speaker 1: The idea that someone else was going to stand there

615
00:32:35,236 --> 00:32:37,996
Speaker 1: and sum it up or say in so many words

616
00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:41,636
Speaker 1: what it is that I do was really interesting to me.

617
00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:44,116
Speaker 1: You know, the word genius doesn't mean like that you're

618
00:32:44,156 --> 00:32:46,676
Speaker 1: smarter than everybody. Means that there's one particular thing that

619
00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:49,476
Speaker 1: is your genius. You know. One time I told a

620
00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,436
Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine this, you should, oh, don't worry, you're

621
00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:57,236
Speaker 1: not one. But the thing is that whatever it is

622
00:32:57,236 --> 00:33:00,196
Speaker 1: that you're particularly good at, I have somebody describe that

623
00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:03,716
Speaker 1: it's as incredible gift. And that's somebody that I think

624
00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:06,036
Speaker 1: so much of that and it's meant so much to

625
00:33:06,116 --> 00:33:09,276
Speaker 1: me that it was just a really overwhelming thing to

626
00:33:09,316 --> 00:33:10,796
Speaker 1: have happened. At the same time, it was done with

627
00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:13,956
Speaker 1: such love and such an such an embrace. It was incredible.

628
00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,596
Speaker 1: I find that a little scary. That speech almost not scary,

629
00:33:17,716 --> 00:33:21,596
Speaker 1: but it puts a huge burden on you to me,

630
00:33:21,756 --> 00:33:25,676
Speaker 1: like you're the responsible one. You're the guy who was

631
00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:29,156
Speaker 1: like who you know, witnessing the failure of love, you know,

632
00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:32,516
Speaker 1: the impossibility of love and trying to put together the

633
00:33:32,516 --> 00:33:35,396
Speaker 1: fragments of our life. And I thought, oh, man, poor

634
00:33:35,476 --> 00:33:40,516
Speaker 1: Jackson Brown, Like but you almost I had read recently

635
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:43,716
Speaker 1: that you said you were writing songs when you're a kid,

636
00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:45,916
Speaker 1: but you probably would have had more fun had you

637
00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:48,796
Speaker 1: just gone out in a garage band and played Gloria

638
00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:52,636
Speaker 1: for three hours the way every other kid was doing. Yeah,

639
00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:54,516
Speaker 1: I still want to do that. I've I've had to

640
00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:57,316
Speaker 1: have some offers after I wherever that was Predator or

641
00:33:57,436 --> 00:33:59,276
Speaker 1: so Setllite, people say like, hey, we want to play

642
00:33:59,276 --> 00:34:02,516
Speaker 1: Gloria with you. That's there's something about that. Look, that's

643
00:34:02,556 --> 00:34:05,636
Speaker 1: just a component that I that got left out being

644
00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:09,836
Speaker 1: unbanded in high school. But I didn't. I didn't. I

645
00:34:09,876 --> 00:34:12,276
Speaker 1: liked Gloria, but I didn't really admire that the fact

646
00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:15,316
Speaker 1: it was really hard place for songs to grow and

647
00:34:15,356 --> 00:34:17,516
Speaker 1: for lyrics, lyrics to be heard, very hard. So I

648
00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:20,636
Speaker 1: saw I gravitated to the listening rooms where people really

649
00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,276
Speaker 1: really listen and thought about what they're listening to. And

650
00:34:23,316 --> 00:34:26,556
Speaker 1: so yeah, the thing is that there's joy. Rock and

651
00:34:26,676 --> 00:34:28,436
Speaker 1: roll is so full of joy, and it's so full

652
00:34:28,476 --> 00:34:31,956
Speaker 1: of the need, the desire for freedom and the and

653
00:34:31,996 --> 00:34:35,156
Speaker 1: the willingness to risk everything for it. You know, there

654
00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:38,916
Speaker 1: is meaning in the sound of a ride symbol. There's

655
00:34:38,916 --> 00:34:42,076
Speaker 1: a way in which somebody does a particular rhythmical thing,

656
00:34:42,196 --> 00:34:44,276
Speaker 1: or like a guitar chord or way in which played

657
00:34:44,316 --> 00:34:47,796
Speaker 1: that is really more power and there's more there's more

658
00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:51,996
Speaker 1: meaning in it than in the meaning of the words. Well,

659
00:34:52,396 --> 00:34:56,956
Speaker 1: there's as much. So which you I want both of those?

660
00:34:57,116 --> 00:34:59,756
Speaker 1: I want this, I want that's that's also like what

661
00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:01,596
Speaker 1: I was trying to do in Downhill from Everywhere. I

662
00:35:01,596 --> 00:35:03,116
Speaker 1: want you to listen to the way these guys are

663
00:35:03,156 --> 00:35:06,156
Speaker 1: playing this. And we really worked on which just that's

664
00:35:06,276 --> 00:35:08,876
Speaker 1: my garage band there, you know the thing that I've

665
00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:11,476
Speaker 1: I fish just to have the words engage you in

666
00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:15,916
Speaker 1: a place where you care. That's what I want to do.

667
00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:19,156
Speaker 1: And to do that you have to hear them. I

668
00:35:19,316 --> 00:35:21,276
Speaker 1: just I'll just ask you one more question about that,

669
00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:24,476
Speaker 1: because we've determined that you've got a new album that's

670
00:35:24,516 --> 00:35:27,636
Speaker 1: hard rocking and you're back into game, all all the

671
00:35:27,716 --> 00:35:30,036
Speaker 1: nice things I want to say about your record. When

672
00:35:30,116 --> 00:35:33,316
Speaker 1: you write, you do write political songs? Do you start

673
00:35:33,316 --> 00:35:37,156
Speaker 1: out an anger? Sometimes? Yeah? I met this guy wanted

674
00:35:37,276 --> 00:35:39,236
Speaker 1: He it's a punk rocker. I can't remember his name now,

675
00:35:39,476 --> 00:35:42,396
Speaker 1: and he was telling me, you know, I like your music. Okay,

676
00:35:42,516 --> 00:35:44,476
Speaker 1: you know, I think, but you know, I think it

677
00:35:44,476 --> 00:35:46,116
Speaker 1: should be a little angrier. You know, I think you

678
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:48,556
Speaker 1: should be angrier. I just doug that he was willing

679
00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:50,796
Speaker 1: to talk to me because it was that's the saying

680
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:55,196
Speaker 1: with which all this enables. Days of shoegazing, like introspective

681
00:35:55,196 --> 00:35:58,916
Speaker 1: songwriters were sort of swept aside by punk music. But yeah,

682
00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:01,516
Speaker 1: I think that, after all, there's plenty of stuff that

683
00:36:01,556 --> 00:36:04,876
Speaker 1: I'm angry about. I think that I have something similar.

684
00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:10,236
Speaker 1: But it's not about getting the anger out, but hope

685
00:36:10,756 --> 00:36:14,716
Speaker 1: in I want to engage about what's what's going on

686
00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:18,756
Speaker 1: in this life and and also try to at least

687
00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:22,716
Speaker 1: chart a course or in some way, you know, direct

688
00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:27,716
Speaker 1: myself and whoever else is listening to a possibility that

689
00:36:27,876 --> 00:36:31,196
Speaker 1: things might be could be improved upon, you know, and

690
00:36:31,236 --> 00:36:34,996
Speaker 1: really that always comes down to improving yourself. And first,

691
00:36:35,116 --> 00:36:37,556
Speaker 1: you know, are you more hopeful now than you've been

692
00:36:37,596 --> 00:36:40,836
Speaker 1: in the past? Well, the whole like that. The Haitians say,

693
00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:45,556
Speaker 1: you know, lespark Feviv, hope makes life. That that's such

694
00:36:45,556 --> 00:36:48,036
Speaker 1: a simple anguage Haitian creole. But I mean what they

695
00:36:48,036 --> 00:36:51,476
Speaker 1: mean is like, hope makes life possible. So you know,

696
00:36:51,516 --> 00:36:54,436
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful as a motherfucker. You know, I'm trying to

697
00:36:55,436 --> 00:36:58,276
Speaker 1: I'm trying to find it wherever I look. You know,

698
00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:02,996
Speaker 1: I think we've got your next album title right, hopeful

699
00:37:03,036 --> 00:37:06,716
Speaker 1: as a MOTIFU listen. Thank you so much for this.

700
00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:09,996
Speaker 1: It's been just fantastic than the left for the conversation.

701
00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:15,236
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. Thanks to Jackson Brown for talking

702
00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:18,036
Speaker 1: about his career and the inspiration behind his new album,

703
00:37:18,316 --> 00:37:21,396
Speaker 1: Downhill from Everywhere. You can check out that album plus

704
00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:24,276
Speaker 1: all of our favorite Jackson Brown songs at Broken Record

705
00:37:24,276 --> 00:37:27,636
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube

706
00:37:27,676 --> 00:37:31,116
Speaker 1: channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where

707
00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:33,836
Speaker 1: you can find all of our new episodes. You can

708
00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:37,196
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is

709
00:37:37,236 --> 00:37:41,276
Speaker 1: produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez,

710
00:37:41,556 --> 00:37:45,876
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafen.

711
00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:49,716
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is mio Leabell. Broken Record is a

712
00:37:49,716 --> 00:37:53,156
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and

713
00:37:53,236 --> 00:37:57,836
Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus

714
00:37:57,916 --> 00:38:01,796
Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and unindrupted

715
00:38:01,876 --> 00:38:04,236
Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine of a month.

716
00:38:04,516 --> 00:38:08,516
Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and please

717
00:38:08,556 --> 00:38:10,996
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on their podcast

718
00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:14,636
Speaker 1: That a theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,

719
00:38:18,156 --> 00:38:18,196
Speaker 1: h