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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore

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Speaker 1: the intersection of technology, identity, and social media. And this

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Speaker 1: is another installment of our weekly news roundup where we

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Speaker 1: dig into all the stories that you might have missed

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Speaker 1: on the Internet this week, so you don't have to.

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Speaker 1: And if you're hearing a little extra twang or drawled

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Speaker 1: in my voice, it is because I'm coming to you

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Speaker 1: from Austin, Texas, where I'm here for south By Southwest,

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Speaker 1: where I just finished to talk on why audiences do

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Speaker 1: not like AI in their media.

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Speaker 2: Y'all.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of geeked right now because after I finished

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Speaker 1: that talk, I rushed over to see Steven Spielberg do

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Speaker 1: a whole talk about aliens on The Big Picture podcast

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Speaker 1: with Sean Fantasy. I am basically in nerd heaven. It

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Speaker 1: was awesome. But what is also awesome is having Joey

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Speaker 1: back on the podcast. Joey, it is so nice to

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Speaker 1: have you back on the show. After believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: we've been making this podcast together for years. We finally

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Speaker 1: met in person for the first time at the On

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Speaker 1: Air Festival in New York City, which was delightful.

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Speaker 3: We did guess Yeah, so excited to be back on

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Speaker 3: the show and always so nice to finally meet you

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Speaker 3: in person. On airf us was great. Shout out to

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Speaker 3: everybody that organized a lot. I'm wearing my hat that

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Speaker 3: I got from it right now. It says ESPN Podcasts,

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Speaker 3: which has been great because I'm trying to do this

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Speaker 3: bear right now or I pretend to know things about

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Speaker 3: sports when I don't, which I think.

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Speaker 2: Leads really well to our first story.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great segue, so I have to give

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Speaker 1: a big caveat that. I've only actually seen one episode

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Speaker 1: of Heated Rivalry because I've just been very busy. But

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Speaker 1: the online discourse around it has been super charged, and

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Speaker 1: a GQ piece called do Normies have the Right to read?

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Speaker 1: Heated Rivalry? Fan? Fixed by Catherine d It breaks down

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Speaker 1: how expectations around online fandom has created a lot of

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Speaker 1: tensions in the Heated Rivalry online discourse, a discourse Joey

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Speaker 1: that I know that you're pretty tapped into.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, I'm so glad you brought this to my attention,

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Speaker 3: bridget Caveat.

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Speaker 2: Like you, I have the opposite.

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Speaker 3: I've watched all of Heated Rivalry except for the last episode,

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Speaker 3: which many of my friends are inna should about.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, I keep doing this with TV shows.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why, And Bridgett, I know you also

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Speaker 3: do this and you have a better reason than me.

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Speaker 2: But like I will watch shows and then not watch

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Speaker 2: the last episode I do.

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Speaker 1: I do the exact same thing. When I really love

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Speaker 1: a show where it's meaningful to me, I won't watch

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Speaker 1: the last episode because I can't bear the idea of

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Speaker 1: there being no more of it to watch, and I

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Speaker 1: like the feeling of saying, oh, I can still watch

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Speaker 1: one more. So I haven't watched the last episode of

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Speaker 1: Hacks because I loved it so much. I haven't even

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Speaker 1: ever watched the last episode of thirty Rock, which was

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Speaker 1: like ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I Hacks.

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Speaker 3: At least there's like a new season coming out, so

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Speaker 3: there's like a deadline for that. But for me, it's

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Speaker 3: more that I think I just have commitment issues. But yeah, anyways,

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Speaker 3: I love the show. I Bridgett, you know, my favorite

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Speaker 3: thing to talk about is fan fiction, So I'm so

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Speaker 3: ready for this. I think specifically, I do want to

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Speaker 3: bring up at the top because the thing that I

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Speaker 3: think is interesting about Heated Rivalry and talking about Heated

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Speaker 3: Rivalry and fan fiction specifically, is that it started as

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Speaker 3: a fan fiction. I'm I'm not into I know, there's

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Speaker 3: like two stories. One of them is like, actually I

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Speaker 3: think about like hockey.

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Speaker 2: Players or something.

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Speaker 3: I again don't know shit about sports, so whatever I know,

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Speaker 3: I think, like Alia and Shane is like actually based

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Speaker 3: on hockey players, but like the whole Scott and Kip

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Speaker 3: storyline that is based on Captain America fan fiction, which

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Speaker 3: was really big for me as somebody who spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of their formative years bringing Captain America fan fiction.

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Speaker 1: So when it comes to Heated Rivalry, here's what's going down.

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Speaker 1: So there was a recent New York Mad cover story

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Speaker 1: about Heated Rivalry and fujoshi, which is a Japanese word

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Speaker 1: for women who enjoy romantic and sexual stories about men,

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Speaker 1: and this sparked a lot of online conversation. The author,

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Speaker 1: e Alex Jung had included direct links to fan fiction

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Speaker 1: about Heated Rivalry posted to AO three or Archive of

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Speaker 1: our Own, which is like a fan fiction platform. Many

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Speaker 1: people felt like this was a problem since it was

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Speaker 1: essentially sending a large mainstream audience to this community specific

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Speaker 1: mostly under Pseudonym's writing platform, never meant for them, and

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Speaker 1: so while it's true AO three is not a private space,

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Speaker 1: people who show up there kind of treat it as

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Speaker 1: if it's a semi private online community, with some expectation

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Speaker 1: of it being only for quote insiders in the know,

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily for what you might consider to be

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Speaker 1: like a normy audience. As Catherine d puts it in

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Speaker 1: her piece for GQ, the debate touches on something fundamental

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Speaker 1: about the experience of online spaces, and it is further

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Speaker 1: reaching implications that it might seem. The Internet has a geography.

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Speaker 1: It is a place more than it is a communication tool.

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Speaker 1: It has cities and towns and houses and rooms and

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Speaker 1: rooms within rooms. Each region of the Internet has its

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Speaker 1: own culture and dialect and etiquette. The Internet also has

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Speaker 1: places that are public in the technical sense, but private

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Speaker 1: and the social one. Yes, AO three is a website

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Speaker 1: that anyone can visit, browse, sign up, and make an

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Speaker 1: account on, but many fans perceive it less like a

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Speaker 1: public square and more like a communal living room.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have.

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Speaker 3: Conflicting thoughts on this one, because so I read the

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Speaker 3: original piece that came out that was in New York Magazine.

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Speaker 3: Shout out to the many many people that set me

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Speaker 3: that over Instagram. I'm glad that I have a brand apparently.

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Speaker 3: Like I read the article and I honestly I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: this is cool. This is like a like I was like,

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Speaker 3: this is an area of like internet.

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Speaker 2: Culture that I'm really interested in I've been a part of.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a good kind of take on that.

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Speaker 3: I understand the frustration, specifically with the fact that he

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Speaker 3: linked to these fan fictions, and I understand why people

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Speaker 3: maybe weren't super happy with that.

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Speaker 2: I think we're gonna get a little bit.

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Speaker 3: More into this, but I think like there's like this

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Speaker 3: assumed maybe not like this isn't this is maybe not

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Speaker 3: assuming that it's private, but assuming like it's going to

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Speaker 3: stay in this corner of the Internet, and it's like

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Speaker 3: not really going to breach containment. And I think, like

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Speaker 3: I understand that, like when it does breach containment, that's

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Speaker 3: annoying and upsetting. Uh, But also like because of how

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Speaker 3: AO three works, like you said, it's like a lot

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Speaker 3: of people use pseudonyms. A lot of people like there's

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Speaker 3: ways to make it more private, there's ways to keep

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Speaker 3: your actual identity off of it. So that to me

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Speaker 3: is more like, all right, in my book, it's like,

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Speaker 3: you wrote this thing, you put it on the internet,

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Speaker 3: you kind of control what happens to it.

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Speaker 1: Well, she reveals that exact tension the piece, where on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, this is in no way an underground community.

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Speaker 1: It might feel niche, but you know it's really not.

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Speaker 1: Fan fiction is not niche like it used to be.

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Speaker 1: You know, there was a time, I'm old enough to

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Speaker 1: remember the time where if you were engaging in like

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Speaker 1: niche fandom communities online, they were they were public, but

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Speaker 1: they felt so small and off the radar that it

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Speaker 1: was unlikely that a journalist would wander in there and

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Speaker 1: start writing about it. But here in twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 1: that's not really the case anymore.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even like thinking about like when I

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Speaker 3: was a teenager, like ten years ago, like in these

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Speaker 3: spaces and writing fan fiction.

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Speaker 2: And like rating a lot of this stuff. Not that

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Speaker 2: I don't also do that now, but whatever.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, it was like it was a very different environment

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Speaker 3: I've like talked about on this podcast, like I was

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Speaker 3: really on Tumblr, like that was like my main platform

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Speaker 3: when I was a teenager. I think, like it's really

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Speaker 3: interesting with like fandom stuff seeing it kind of moved

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Speaker 3: to TikTok and the way that TikTok is so much

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Speaker 3: more like public, like your face is literally attached to

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Speaker 3: it versus I'm like, I don't like any of the

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Speaker 3: fandom stuff that I did back when I was sixteen.

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Speaker 3: There's no way to connect it back to me. My

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Speaker 3: face was not on it, my name was not on it.

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Speaker 3: It was on some I don't even remember which tumbler.

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Speaker 3: I had so many different usernames about point. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I don't even remember which one like it would have

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Speaker 3: been on.

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Speaker 1: And the GQ piece really plays at the tension that

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Speaker 1: you were sort of getting at of what is it?

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Speaker 1: What are the implications of when this thing that feels

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Speaker 1: private but actually isn't private is like talked about and

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Speaker 1: amplified in these ways. You know, on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: this is in no way an underground community, that's just

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Speaker 1: the bottom line. But it is also reasonable to not

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Speaker 1: want what feels like your private little corner of the

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Speaker 1: web or you can be like your freaky little weirdo self,

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Speaker 1: which we love, being turned into a public spectacle and

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Speaker 1: like blown up. And so the piece returns to this

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Speaker 1: analogy of being filmed in public. Nobody wants to be

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Speaker 1: filmed in public, but when you go out and public

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Speaker 1: on a public street, you actually have no expectation of privacy.

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Speaker 1: So it's perfectly legal to film people in public, even

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Speaker 1: though nobody likes that. And so that analogy really made

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me, and I just think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting from the perspective of a journalist like I

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Speaker 1: bumped up against this when I was writing my audiobook

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Speaker 1: Love at First Prompt, because I was essentially lurking in

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Speaker 1: what felt like semi private spaces subreddits like my Boyfriend

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Speaker 1: is Ai, where people go to talk about their intimate

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Speaker 1: connections with AI. These conversations are obviously sensitive and intimate

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Speaker 1: and like delicate. These are people who are talking about

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Speaker 1: things that have garnered a lot of scrutiny because of

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Speaker 1: the things sort they're talking about, and so it does

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Speaker 1: feel weird to be silently lurking in these communities publishing

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Speaker 1: anonymously what some of these people are saying. So that

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Speaker 1: I can create commentary around it, but then wondering about

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Speaker 1: the ethics of that, and the ethics are clear, right,

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Speaker 1: Like if you write something on Reddit and a public

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Speaker 1: subreddit that's on the Internet for everybody to see, whoever

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Speaker 1: wants to respond to that, blow that up, amplify that

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Speaker 1: they can. But I understand this sort of like tension

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Speaker 1: that she's getting at, because it does raise I wrestled

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Speaker 1: with how to handle that when I was putting together

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Speaker 1: the book, and she really nails that tension in the

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Speaker 1: GQP she writes. The impulse to gatekeep AO three to

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Speaker 1: insist that journalists should honor community norms that they never

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Speaker 1: agreed to is understandable, but it runs up against a

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Speaker 1: hard reality. You can lock your aosree account or post

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Speaker 1: to invite only spaces, but what people actually want is

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Speaker 1: harder to guarantee. They want to publish openly, but to

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Speaker 1: only be read by the right people. That is something

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Speaker 1: both the Internet and our broader culture used to provide

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Speaker 1: briefly and accidentally, and most likely never will again. Obscurity

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Speaker 1: work when fandom was small, but it no longer is,

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Speaker 1: and no amount of gatekeeping will ever bring the healcyon

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Speaker 1: days of the early two thousand back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I we really need to do a full episode

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Speaker 3: about AO three at some point because I have so

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Speaker 3: much to say to this, but I yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: she put it really well. Like I said, I understand

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Speaker 3: that impulse to gatekeep again and again as somebody who's like,

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Speaker 3: I've written some really bad fan fiction out there again

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Speaker 3: totally anonymous. Which is why I'm like not embarrassed by

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Speaker 3: that fact because I was like, yeah, I made this

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Speaker 3: when I was like sixteen, and it was fun.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that's actually a good thing to do.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but uh yeah, I think it is

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Speaker 3: like we're at such a weird time with like fandom

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Speaker 3: culture where I think, like, like she said, like.

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Speaker 2: Fandom isn't small anymore.

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Speaker 3: It's become so much more mainstream, like trying to look

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Speaker 3: at it from the perspective of like why people want

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Speaker 3: to keep this contained, keep this anonymous.

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Speaker 2: I get that it's annoying.

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Speaker 3: To have people like coming into your weird nerdy space

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Speaker 3: that you just like don't want to whatever.

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Speaker 2: I get that. I'm the same way.

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Speaker 3: I also think, like, like she said, you can lock

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Speaker 3: your account, you can make it, you only have you

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Speaker 3: have to have an AO three account to read people's

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Speaker 3: fan fictions.

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Speaker 2: Most people don't have their name on it, and that.

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Speaker 3: To me, that to me, I think it's like more

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Speaker 3: of an issue of like this is why it's important

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Speaker 3: to protect online spaces where you can be anonymous, because

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Speaker 3: that's such a great like creative tool for people. Because

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Speaker 3: like at the end of the day, and this is

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Speaker 3: where i have like a more positive take on this,

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Speaker 3: where I'm like, I actually think it is good that

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Speaker 3: people are talking about this more.

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Speaker 2: AO three Like when you think about it, you think.

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Speaker 3: About it like platforms where you can like create things

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Speaker 3: and make media. Fan fiction is like one of the

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Speaker 3: few kind of forms of media right now you just

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Speaker 3: like cannot monetize at all, like unless you turn it

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Speaker 3: into an original story later on. The most writers aren't

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Speaker 3: going into fan fiction being like I'm gonna make money

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Speaker 3: off of that.

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Speaker 2: Like they're doing it for the love of the game,

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Speaker 2: and that.

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Speaker 3: To me is like we get so little, like there's

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Speaker 3: so few examples of that right now.

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Speaker 2: That like I always say, like AO three is genuinely

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Speaker 2: like one.

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Speaker 3: Of the sites online right now, like is like one

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Speaker 3: of the few websites right now that like gives me

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Speaker 3: hope for like the future of the Internet and people

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Speaker 3: be able to being able to like create things on

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Speaker 3: the Internet because of that, because it's like you can't

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Speaker 3: monetize it, there's no algorithm.

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Speaker 2: You literally are just like posting to it. This is yeah,

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Speaker 2: just people doing it for the love of the game.

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Speaker 3: And to me, like, I think that's like a really

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Speaker 3: important part of like creating art. I uh yeah, Like

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Speaker 3: I was very like, yeah, I was shamed of the

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Speaker 3: fact that I like wrote fan fiction growing up, I

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Speaker 3: didn't talk to anybody about it.

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Speaker 2: But also like that was one of the earliest.

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Speaker 3: Ways I was able to like engage in non engaged

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Speaker 3: in like creative writing in a way that was like

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Speaker 3: felt accessible at the time. We just need people creating

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Speaker 3: more art, and like I think, if you want to

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Speaker 3: create art.

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Speaker 2: You should do it.

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Speaker 3: And like I guess, like my main takeaway is I

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Speaker 3: get the anxiety around these articles. I get the impulse

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Speaker 3: to want to gatekeep. I also think like there's no

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Speaker 3: harm in just like creating things. And part of me

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Speaker 3: is like, you know what, yeah, if we're like becoming

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Speaker 3: more open about that, if we're saying like, fuck, cringe,

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Speaker 3: embrace the cringe. Read write as much fanfiction as you want. Like,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. You

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Speaker 3: heard it here first, Folks, embrace the cringe.

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Speaker 1: You never know how far it will take you.

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Speaker 3: You never know literally, like I'll be real, it has.

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Speaker 2: Genuinely like given me a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of like, I think it's really beautiful that this was

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Speaker 3: a series, Like yeah, started as a just somebody writing

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Speaker 3: this for fun, which is what a lot of art

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Speaker 3: starts as, and then it turns into this thing that

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Speaker 3: resonates with a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Best case scenario, you make the biggest TV show of

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Speaker 2: the year.

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Speaker 3: Worst case scenario, you made a fun piece of art

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Speaker 3: and had fun.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break eder back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so speaking of writing, y'all have probably all heard

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Speaker 1: this by now, but I could not stop thinking about

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Speaker 1: the Grammarly thing it is. I just can't stop thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. So if we don't know what's going on,

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Speaker 1: Grammarly the AI writing tool had this feature that used

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Speaker 1: AI to simulate editorial feedback, so it would make it

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Speaker 1: seem like you're getting editorial feedback or an editorial critique

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Speaker 1: from real, named, living, specific people like you could ask

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Speaker 1: Grammarly to give you feedback in the style of novelist

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Speaker 1: Stephen King or tech journalist Kara Swisher. Notably, Grammarly did

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Speaker 1: not get permission from any of the hundreds of real

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Speaker 1: alive i've human experts included in this feature that they

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Speaker 1: called expert review. Side note, whenever some platform is rolling

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Speaker 1: out some kind of dubious, questionable thing, they always have

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Speaker 1: to give it a cute see name that actually obscures

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Speaker 1: how awful it truly is. So this is from The Verge,

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Speaker 1: where they found that numerous other tech journalists named in

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Speaker 1: this feature, including former Verge editors Casey Newton and Johanna Storn,

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Speaker 1: former Verge writer Monica Chin, Wired's Lauren Good, Bloomberg's Mark

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Speaker 1: German and Jason Shearer. The New York Times is Kashmir Hill,

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Speaker 1: the Atlantics, Caitlin Tippany, PC Gamers, West Fenlin, Gizmotos, Raymond Wong,

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Speaker 1: and many many more. The descriptions for some of the

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Speaker 1: experts also contain inaccuracies like outdated job titles, which the

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Speaker 1: Verge notes Grammarly could have actually updated in a correct

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Speaker 1: way had they just reached out to these people for

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Speaker 1: permission to reference their work and their name. So that

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Speaker 1: to me, I just find that to be like I

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Speaker 1: don't even know. Usually when I hear a story like this,

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Speaker 1: I have some sense of how we got here where

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, they miscalculated in this way or

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Speaker 1: they overlook this. I genuinely don't have an answer for

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Speaker 1: how they how grammarly got this so wrong. I genuinely don't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things with a lot

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Speaker 3: of AI stuff for like genuinely, my immediate reaction that's

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Speaker 3: just sort of like.

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Speaker 2: Why, like what's the point? I Maybe that's me, I

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Speaker 2: guess like.

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Speaker 3: If you just like really want to have like journalists

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Speaker 3: like I just don't see the point of it, or

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Speaker 3: if you're gonna have like somebody commenting like when you

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Speaker 3: want it to be like something kind of funny, like

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Speaker 3: I don't know, like in the style of like Larry

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Speaker 3: David or some shit.

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Speaker 4: Like I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that. I'm like, oh, okay, now I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Again, my response to most AI stuff is just kind

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Speaker 3: of like O hey, but like, what's the point, Like

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Speaker 3: why would I want to do that?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And you know, if you asked CHATCHYBT to give

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Speaker 1: you feedback, in the style of some public figure or

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Speaker 1: like journalist or voice.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it would do it. There was just something about.

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Speaker 1: Grammarly taking it upon themselves to offer up advice from

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Speaker 1: these these people that I just find so strange. In

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Speaker 1: his outlet, platformer Casey Newton actually showed Kara Swisher what

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Speaker 1: kind of advice Grammarly was giving that they named as

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Speaker 1: in her style or in her voice, and she said, quote,

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Speaker 1: you rapacious information and identity thieves, better get ready for

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Speaker 1: me to go full McConaughey on you also you suck,

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Speaker 1: which I wonder if that's the spot like the style

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Speaker 1: of response that Grammarly's AI was suggesting to people. So now,

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Speaker 1: according to tech Crunch, one of the writers, journalist Juliet Angwin,

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Speaker 1: has filed a class action lawsuit against Superhuman, which is

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Speaker 1: the parent company that owns Grammarly, arguing that Superhuman violated

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Speaker 1: the pride I have to see in publicity rights of

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Speaker 1: her and other writers that they impersonated. Because this is

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Speaker 1: a class action lawsuit, other writers who were impersonated in

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Speaker 1: this way or had their names or likeness is used

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Speaker 1: can join the class in a statement and when said,

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Speaker 1: I have worked decades honing my skills as a writer

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Speaker 1: and editor, and I am distressed to discover that a

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Speaker 1: tech company is selling an imposter version of my hard

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Speaker 1: earned expertise.

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Speaker 2: So something else.

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Speaker 1: I have to just sort of pause on for a

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Speaker 1: moment is that when this was first reported and all

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Speaker 1: the writers were thinking what the hell and responding, also

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Speaker 1: doing this to tech journalists, I feel like is so

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Speaker 1: wild to me, because it's like, these are people who

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Speaker 1: are not afraid to speak up, They've made careers speaking up. Like,

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Speaker 1: of all the people that you would not want to

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Speaker 1: enrage through impersonation of their likeness, tech journalists, I can't

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Speaker 1: think of. I can't think of like people who are

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Speaker 1: worse to do this too. But so when all the

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Speaker 1: journalists were speaking up at first, Grammarly was like, okay, her,

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Speaker 1: you writers do not like this, So our compromise is

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna let the writers opt out if they

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Speaker 1: don't want their names and likenesses used without permission, which

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Speaker 1: to me is like, wow, y'all, that was the worst

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Speaker 1: little attempt at a fix that y'all could have done.

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Speaker 1: But then eventually they pulled, they did pull the feature

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Speaker 1: all together, and I think that little digression into saying like, well, fine,

402
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Speaker 1: y'all can opt out if you don't like it. Really

403
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Speaker 1: reveals grammarly and also a lot of AI companies their

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Speaker 1: first instinct right when confronted with the fact that they

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Speaker 1: had used all these people's names and reputations and likenesses

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Speaker 1: without their permission, it was not to apologize and take

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Speaker 1: it down, but to offer this opt out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I could do a drinking game with

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Speaker 3: the show where like every time the word like opt

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Speaker 3: out is said that it could be a big one.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that feels like the book.

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Speaker 3: Basically every response now is like, oh, well, we're gonna

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Speaker 3: do this terrible thing that you can opt out of it,

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Speaker 3: which is great.

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Speaker 2: I love I love that that's my responsibility.

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Speaker 3: Now, it's like and sort of morbidly curious why I

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Speaker 3: do wonder, like, what would my AI tone be towards

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Speaker 3: editing somebody's writing.

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Speaker 2: Uh, but yeah, no, that's man. I can't keep doing this.

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Speaker 1: It's so bad. And I just think this dynamic where

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Speaker 1: the burden should be on the writers to go reclaim

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Speaker 1: their identities from this for profit product that they never

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Speaker 1: agreed to be in relationship with. In the first place.

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Speaker 1: I just think it tells you everything about how these

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Speaker 1: companies think about consent. It's just they it's something that's

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Speaker 1: it's like they're not thinking about it at all, and

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Speaker 1: it's only something that they offer in the most disingenuous

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Speaker 1: way when they're caught. And I just think that the

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Speaker 1: idea that like the like the fact that one of

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Speaker 1: these writers is starting a class action lawsuit, that's not cheap, right,

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Speaker 1: having to get an attorney, having to do a lawsuit,

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Speaker 1: that is not cheap, But like that assumption that we

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Speaker 1: can use what you made, we can use what you built,

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Speaker 1: we can use your name and who you are. You

437
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 1: can come and ask us nicely to stop. But that

438
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: legal fight is like yours to fund. That opt out

439
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: form is yours to figure out, yours to find It's

440
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: it's up to you to know that this is even

441
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: happening in the first place, because like, had this not

442
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: blown up online, I don't think people would have known.

443
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: Those burdens are just always on the creator. So that

444
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: actually reminds me of this other story that I saw.

445
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: Shout out to Matt Grokuot over at PetaPixel for covering

446
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: a very similar and also similarly upsetting story. So this guy,

447
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: Gerald Carter, founded Diversity Photos back in twenty sixteen. I

448
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: remember when this happened. I remember Diversity Photos. If you've

449
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: ever tried to find stock images, a lot of stock

450
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: image websites are not very diverse, and so Diversity Photos

451
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: was meant to be a stock photo library specifically built

452
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: to serve communities that are often historically underrepresented in stock photos.

453
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: He spent years recruiting real, traditionally marginalized people, getting proper consent,

454
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: and like building something genuinely valuable and scarce that filled

455
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: a need. So in twenty eighteen, he partnered with Adobe

456
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: to distribute these photos through Adobe Stock. Now, back in

457
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, like AI was a thing, but it was

458
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: not a thing like it is now, and so generative

459
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 1: AI tools simply did not exist the way they exist now.

460
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: So in whatever contract he signed with Adobe Stock, certainly

461
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: there was no carve out for how those images would

462
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: be used to train AI because that wasn't a thing yet. Really,

463
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 1: So he partners with Adobe to distribute the diverse stock

464
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: images through Adobe stock should be all good, right, Well,

465
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, Adobe launched Firefly, it's aiimage generator. Now.

466
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: I remember this too. I think we might have covered

467
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: it on the podcast.

468
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: I can't remember that, but I remember that they marketed

469
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: it as a platform that was going to really respect

470
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: creator rights at a time when a lot of voices

471
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: were talking about like AI and creator rights. It was

472
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: like a very splashy launch where Adobe said all the

473
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: right stuff. So Carter, when they released this, quickly realized

474
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: that Adobe had fed his entire diverse stock photo library

475
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: into Adobe's Firefly training data without asking, without even attempting

476
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: to get some sort of separate license or contract, and

477
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: notably without any compensation. They just were like, oh, you

478
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: get you partnered with us in this one capacity, we

479
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: can use that in RII. So when he pushed back,

480
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: Adobe's position was that the twenty eighteen distribution agreement that

481
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: they had already gave them the right to do this,

482
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: pointing to language about content for quote developing new features

483
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: and services, Carter told PetaPixel, when I found out that

484
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: Adobe had fed our entire library into their AI training pipeline,

485
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: without asking, without a separate license, and without any compensation,

486
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: it was devastating. They didn't just use a few images.

487
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: They ingested our content and used it to build products

488
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: that now directly compete with us. Adobe's AI can now

489
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: generate the same kind of diverse imagery that we spent

490
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: years and significant resources creating. They took our competitive advantage

491
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: and turned it into their feature that is so messed

492
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: up now. Carter says that that clause was about improving

493
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: the platform, not building a competing AI product, because he's

494
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: probably thinking, I would have never agreed to let my

495
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: images that I spent years and resources and money be

496
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: used to create a competitor that I didn't agree to.

497
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: You Like, He's like, I probably would never have agreed

498
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: to that. So Adobe's argument is essentially that the word

499
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: new means anything new under the sun, including technology that

500
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: did not exist when the contract was signed, which that

501
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: is a terrible contract, Like why would somebody ever sign that.

502
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 5: It's like, what the hell, Yeah, we could just we

503
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 5: could just do whatever you want, whatever we want for

504
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 5: however time, It's like a Ron Swanson contract from Parks

505
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 5: and Recreation that just says I can do whatever I.

506
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 2: Want, I do what I want. It's like that's just

507
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: every corporation.

508
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 5: Now.

509
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: I God, this was so long ago, but I'm thinking

510
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: about the like, was it Disney like sued this couple

511
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 3: who like died or this person that like died at

512
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 3: Disney World.

513
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 2: Or something like. It was like one of those things.

514
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh, well, you couldn't have sued Disney.

515
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

516
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had signed up for that style of Disney Plus.

517
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: And then she from an allergy, a food allergy at

518
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: a Disney theme park, and they were like, well, you

519
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: clicked yes when you wanted that Disney Plus streaming subscription,

520
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: therefore you can't sue us.

521
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: A good fucking lord.

522
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: I don't know.

523
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I.

524
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: Don't know.

525
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 4: I keep it.

526
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of people in.

527
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: My life recently like ask me questions about AI and

528
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 3: like AI and the entertainment industry specifically and stuff, and

529
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: I feel like I've genuinely reached the point where I

530
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 3: just keeping like, I don't know, man, I'm just gonna

531
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: hope for the best and hope though we don't totally like,

532
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's so like I'm trying to not

533
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: be like, wow, it's so bleak, we're all so screwed

534
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: because of this. But then I'm like, I sure, we're

535
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: signing away our rights to anything new, anything new, anything new.

536
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: I can do what I want. So Adobe offered Carter

537
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: just a little over one thousand dollars in what they

538
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: called a quote bone fee for nearly twelve thousand images

539
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: that they used to train AI models that their company

540
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: now monetizes through subscriptions. Now, Carter points out that this

541
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: was not a licensing fee. They did not call it compensation.

542
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: They called it a bonus quote, as if they were

543
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: doing me a favor, and they made it clear that

544
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: they didn't even believe they were required to pay that

545
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: under the agreement. It showed a fundamental disrespect for the

546
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: value of what we'd created and the communities that we respect.

547
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: So Carter was like, you can take your money and

548
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: shove it. He rejected that money. And just for some context,

549
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: a single one year license of his library of stock

550
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: images for AI evaluation purposes can run into hundreds of

551
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars, and Adobe is like, ooh, actually we

552
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: get it for free, but will throw you one thousand

553
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: dollars just as a little bit of a bonus. I

554
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: can understand why, like folks should read the article. It's

555
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: a really both an article, and like I can understand

556
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: why he is so hurt and dejected because this is

557
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: just just very disrespectful. This is a disrespectful way. It's

558
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: disrespectful to act like you care about representing these communities,

559
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: enjoy all of this like splashy positive pr about how

560
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: you respect creators, and then do somebody like this who

561
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: was in partnership with you trying to fill an actual

562
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: need in in the way that we're represented it online

563
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: and imprinted an image like it's just so disrespectful. And

564
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: I can understand why this my man sound's pissed, and

565
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: every quote in the piece my man's house pissed. So

566
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: Carter engaged in this legal fight, and he says it

567
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: was kind of designed to basically just spend down his

568
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: money financially. And you know, obviously Adobe has tons of money.

569
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: They are not hurting for cash, and he's one person.

570
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: And so there was an arbitration clause in his contract

571
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: that said that Adobe would cover the cost if he

572
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: could not afford them, but Adobe just allegedly refused to

573
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: honor that clause, and then the arbitrator sided with Adobe's framing,

574
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: so Carter had to withdraw from his last remaining legal

575
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: claim because he said he couldn't afford the twenty four

576
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: thousand dollars fee just to argue his case. He just

577
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: couldn't afford it. And so it really connects back to

578
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: the story we were just talking about where you know,

579
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: it's these companies I believe, stealing from people and misusing

580
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: people's work and their labor and their talent and then saying, okay, well,

581
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: if you have a problem with it, fight us in court.

582
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: And again, I'm happy that the writers who were had

583
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: their likenesses taken by Grimmarly are trying to do a

584
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: class action suit. That's great, but it shouldn't the burn

585
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: and should not be on individuals to go up against

586
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: these massive companies that have massive resources lawyers on retainer.

587
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: Is just a really fucked system. Yeah, it's and it's like.

588
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: It's one of those things that's sort of like with

589
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: especially with this guy in this story, like how was

590
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: he supposed to know?

591
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: AI has moved so quickly in the last couple of years, like.

592
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: So many of us have some sort of I have

593
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: shared a lot of my photography online. I'm sure some

594
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 3: of that is like gone mine for AI stuff. If

595
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: here again, if you're somebody who like wrote fan fiction

596
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: at some point, that's probably or any sort of like

597
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: online story you know that you just like publish that

598
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 3: people can like access, like that's getting one. And it's

599
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: also that you wouldn't like I wouldn't have thought through

600
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: the time being like, oh yeah, one day people are

601
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: just gonna make a bunch of jbbies like like that

602
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 3: was like an issue that we didn't even know was

603
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: gonna happen, uh, which is like, what's frustrating here?

604
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: I mean, like I think.

605
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: We were talking at like Bridget.

606
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: We've talked about kind of like the AI like voice

607
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 3: training stuff too and all that, right, I like was

608
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: talking to my friend recently where said something that I

609
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, no, of course I would like never

610
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: side away my voice or something like that. But also

611
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: there's so many recordings of me speaking online at this

612
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: point that somebody could very easily just like take that

613
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: and make an AI thing out of it without my permission.

614
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: So that's cool.

615
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 3: I love that we just have like no say over

616
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: our image anymore. It's really cool, really great, and I

617
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: think is a sign of progress and art becoming more

618
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: democratized obviously, and not just like the fact that I

619
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know, I just I've heard the

620
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: like the art the art argument, so like way more

621
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 3: in the past few months than I expected to.

622
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: And I was like it genuinely is like having like I.

623
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 3: Like had multiple moments where I had to be like,

624
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: what the fuck are we talking about? Like what reality

625
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: are you living in?

626
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 1: Like I don't know.

627
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 2: This is great, this is great. I feel so good

628
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: about the future right now.

629
00:32:44,080 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 1: Very well, society we have here more after a quick break,

630
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. Okay, So shout out

631
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: to four four Media for this next story about Quitter,

632
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: which is an app that promises to help men stop

633
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: watching pornography. Well, that app that promised to help men

634
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: get their pornography viewing under control also leaked intimate data

635
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: on hundreds of thousands of those men, many of whom

636
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: are not mad at all, their miners, their kids, and

637
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: to be clear, we're talking about information that includes their

638
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: masturbation habits, and the app Quitter, according to four four,

639
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: lied about the security issues that they knew the app

640
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: was experiencing. So interestingly enough, when four four first found

641
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: out about this app and reported about it security issues

642
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: back in January, they couldn't do so by naming the

643
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: app because had not yet fixed these issues, and so

644
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 1: they thought like, oh, well, if we report on the

645
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: security issues and we name the app, that could just

646
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: make the situation worse, because it'll be like a bat

647
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: signal to hackers because they haven't fixed this. The piece

648
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: reads that they reported Quitter exposing user data in January,

649
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: but we were unable to name Quitter in the story

650
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: because its creators, Alex Slater and Connor McClaren, did not

651
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: fix its security issues despite multiple requests and an offer

652
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: from an independent researcher to help them fix the problem.

653
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: Naming the app while hackers were still able to easily

654
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: steal Quitter's user data would have endangered their privacy and

655
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: put them at risk of extortion from hackers, which is

656
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: very common today. Some of the data exposed includes the

657
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: user's age, how often they masturbate, and how viewing pornography

658
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: makes them feel. According to that data, many of them

659
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: are miners, and so this is awful. It reminds me

660
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: quite a lot of the t app, which for for

661
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: Media also investigated, where developers they claim to care about

662
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: some super intimate or super sensitive gendered issue and they

663
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: make an app around it and then just do not

664
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: meaningfully demonstrate the most basic standard level of care to

665
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: this vulnerable community. That they care. That they claim to

666
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: want to be protecting or helping, what they actually want

667
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: to be doing is just like getting rich as four

668
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: or four rights. Quitter is operated by Slater and McLaren,

669
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,959
Speaker 1: members of the so called app Mafia, gross, a group

670
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: of men in their early twenties who claimed to have

671
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: made millions of dollars on mobile app development. Slater and

672
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: McLaren were recently subjects of a long New York Mad profile,

673
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: which detailed the opulent lifestyle the success of Quitter has

674
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: afforded them, including driving exotic supercars and living in a

675
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: Miami mansion. Slater shares videos about his lifestyle on his

676
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: personal YouTube channel as well. So I checked out Alex

677
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: Slater's YouTube and it's exactly the kind of soulless, rich

678
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: guy in his twenties who lives in Miami YouTube vlog

679
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: content that you would imagine. It's him, like on a

680
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: balcony of a condo in Miami with like palm trees

681
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: behind him, or doing boxing lessons, or like doing a

682
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: backflip into an infinity pool, just the most boring, Like

683
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: basically you're exploiting young people who are vulnerable so that

684
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: you can live the most boring, soulless, cookie cutter, rich kid, asshole,

685
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: normy douchebag existence on social media possible. It's just so boring.

686
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: I mean that's what my Instagram looks like. So I

687
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 2: don't know, sounds like, actually, shore.

688
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: We doing a backflip in money pool?

689
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: No, if if I could do If I could do

690
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: a backflip, I would post constantly about it.

691
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: Side note, I used to be able to.

692
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 4: Like.

693
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: My thing when I was growing up was how good

694
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: I was at backflips. And my friends and I when

695
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: I was in junior high, we went as the Spice

696
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: Girls for Halloween and I was the only black girl

697
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: in the group, and so they were like, oh, you

698
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: got to be scary. But I was like, actually, I

699
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: should be supporty because one she wears sports brols and

700
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: I wore sports Pearls all the time. And two she's

701
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: always been backflips and I could do a backflip.

702
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I'm so jealous.

703
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: I unfortunately could not do a backflip and never could,

704
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: but I really would love to.

705
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: I haven't like tried to like learn how to do

706
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: but I would.

707
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 3: I would love if I could just wake up one

708
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 3: day and do a backflip. Yeah, no, I agreed. It

709
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: is like it's always the same kind of dude. They're

710
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 3: always in Miami. Uh yeah, I don't know.

711
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: I mean this whole, like the whole premise behind this

712
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: app too, is like depressing on it. Like it's like

713
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: another thing too where it's like, I, yeah.

714
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 3: It's like there is such a moral panic around porn

715
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: and around masturbation right now, and I'm willing to assume

716
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 3: that like the majority of the users are probably people

717
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: that are like more affected by that than like actual

718
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: like sex addiction or anything.

719
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: Again, I don't know, like.

720
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 3: This is speculative, but I think like, like just hearing

721
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: all the story and tandem with like, yeah, a lot

722
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: of the weird like alt right online discourse about like

723
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: masturbation and about sex for like young men, it's like, yeah.

724
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised that like a lot of these are teenagers, and.

725
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: Like that probably is a deeper issue we should you know,

726
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 3: talk about.

727
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: Oh yes, there is actually a fantastic episode that does

728
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: a deep dive into this of the podcast panic World

729
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: about how the no Fat movement, which is like a

730
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: movement that tries to get people to stop masturbating, and

731
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: sort of the porn rejection movement can sometimes like, if

732
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: you like, there are people who legitimately feel like porn,

733
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: just like any other thing, has become an issue in

734
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: their life that they don't feel they have control over.

735
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: But and that's like a valid thing. However, the episode

736
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: really makes a very interesting argument about how that feeling,

737
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: which in a lot of cases can be valid, can

738
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: also be so easily exploited toward extremism and just sort

739
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: of extremist ways of thinking. It's such an interesting episode.

740
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: We'll put the link in the show notes. But yeah,

741
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: I guess I agree with you that we're just in

742
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: a climate where it's so hard to have nuanced conversations

743
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: about sex and young people and what healthy attitudes around

744
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 1: those things look like for folks. And I think these

745
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: people are really exploiting that that we don't have a

746
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: lot of places to have nuanced conversations about how to

747
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: have a healthy relationship with sex and pornography and masturbation.

748
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: And you know, if they just made an AO three

749
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: dot com.

750
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: Account right trying to make a joke, I'm thinking of

751
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 3: what you're putting down.

752
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: I'm just bringing it by guy. Yeah, fun fact I

753
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: did at one point. I'm not denying the fact that

754
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: there's like a lot of porn on AO three O.

755
00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: There is that.

756
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: I did have a partner at one point who I

757
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: would talk a lot about fan fiction and the entire time,

758
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 3: he assumed that I was just talking about porn. And

759
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 3: it literally took like months of this happening before he

760
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: like said something about it. And I was like, you

761
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: think I've been talking about porn this entire time?

762
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: Like are you fine? I was like, right again, I'm like,

763
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: I'm not.

764
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 3: Denying that there was some in there, but like, damn,

765
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 3: like you really just let me go on about this

766
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: thing for months thinking I was just talking about porn

767
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 3: the entire time.

768
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: Dang, they bring up porn at the dinner table, they

769
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: bring it up at all at talk about it all

770
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: the time.

771
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: I was like, because there was.

772
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 3: Some points too, I was like I definitely was like, yeah,

773
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 3: you're supriz.

774
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: Of this, you would like it, Like you're a writer,

775
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: are you like this stuff?

776
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I love that you sat through me

777
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: having that conversation, and it, yeah, like took you months

778
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: to be like you're talking about porn, And I was like, well,

779
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: not necessarily.

780
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 4: But.

781
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: I got this wouldn't be my way.

782
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 3: Takeaway at the other the day, any any everything you

783
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: need on the internet is I three, you don't need

784
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 3: anything else?

785
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we're going through So these guys sound like

786
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: such assholes to me. In that New York mag profile,

787
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: one of them is quoted as saying, quote, we were like,

788
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: how can we build an app to make money? Then

789
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: I realized how large the issue was. That's when it

790
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: became more of a passion project, like how can we

791
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: help men actually become men?

792
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 4: Again?

793
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: I just hate that so much? And like according to them,

794
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean I I yeah, like the way that these

795
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: first of all, go look at this guy's YouTube and

796
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: tell me that, like this is the person that you

797
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: think is the model for healthy masculinity. So it does

798
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: sound like this app is having some success according to

799
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: the creators Quitter. I suppose it's been downloaded more than

800
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: one point five million times, and they say it brings

801
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: in five hundred thousand dollars a month. But despite these

802
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: incredible numbers and all of this money and all of

803
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: these downloads, the developers were somehow unable or unwilling to

804
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: fix this major security flo that was putting their users,

805
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: many of whom are miners, at risk for months. So yeah,

806
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: you'll forgive me if I don't think these sound like

807
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: people who are meaningfully invested in helping the men and

808
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: boys that are making them rich by using their apps,

809
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: if they cannot even make the bare minimum investment in

810
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: protecting the very sensitive information that these people are giving

811
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: to these these app developers.

812
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: Explain how that works to me?

813
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: How is men not masturbating making them more masculine?

814
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: Like I feel like, can we There's no consensus here.

815
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: Either you have to be like hyper sexual or like

816
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: not having sex at all, like I I'm confused.

817
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: I'm confused.

818
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. I just think we

819
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: have a dynamic where men and boys have these, you know,

820
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: valid anxieties around what does it mean to be men?

821
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: And then you have these charlatans who just want to rich,

822
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: basically stepping in and saying we can help you be

823
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: quote a real man, give me your money, and then

824
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: just exploiting these anxieties and vulnerabilities that they're expressing. And

825
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: I guess in a well culture we would have more

826
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: healthy spaces for folks who feel like they are genuinely

827
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: struggling with pornography or whatever, instead of just your hand

828
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: your most sensitive information about this vulnerable part of yourself

829
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: over to a charlatan so that he can be taking

830
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: a boxing class and driving a Lamborghini in Miami like that.

831
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: Like it's like, oh, can you do healthy spaces and meaningful,

832
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: nuanced conversation. Best I can do is scam you and

833
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: I get rich off of it, you know, like it

834
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: infuriates me. So the researcher said that he could access

835
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: the information of more than six hundred thousand users of

836
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: the app, including one hundred thousand of which that he

837
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: identified as miners and so mind you. This app invites

838
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: users to confessions about their masturbation habits. One of them wrote,

839
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: I just can't do this, man, I honestly don't know

840
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: what to do anymore. I'm such a loser. I need

841
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: serious help. Like these are real people, possibly even like teens,

842
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: who downloaded this app because they were struggling or like vulnerable,

843
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: and they trusted the person on the other side of

844
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: the screen. You built this app, and that person did

845
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: not give a damn about them, because if they did

846
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: give a damn about them. They would have built in

847
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: the most basic security features to protect their sensitive information,

848
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: and like, the story is so awful. A journalist called

849
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: the app one of the app developers to find out

850
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: what was going on, and even though the app developers

851
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: had previously confirmed like, oh, this is a problem, we're

852
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: going to fix it things for pointing it out, they

853
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: told this journalist there isn't a problem and then hung

854
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: up on them. And so, yeah, I just feel like

855
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: these people, they're just so cynical and gross and self interested,

856
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: and I hate how lazily and sloppily they're able to

857
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: weaponize folks' vulnerabilities so that they can get rich. And

858
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: I just I guess I would call I would caution

859
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: there are so many apps like this, Like this is

860
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: not a one off story. There are so many spaces

861
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: and people and stuff online that are about that rapid

862
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: in the language of healing and self improvement and leveling

863
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: up and all of that, it's about extracting money and

864
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: data and moving on to the next grift. And I'm

865
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: just sick of it.

866
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 4: More. After a quick.

867
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: Break, let's get right back into it, Okay, So we

868
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: have to talk about this new Uber feature that they

869
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: distrolled out that allows both women writers and women drivers

870
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: across the US to only be matched with other women

871
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 1: for trips. Uber had initially launched this as a pilot

872
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: program in a few states, but now it is rolling

873
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: out nationwide. This despite an ongoing class action lawsuit against

874
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: this women only drivers slash writers policy in California, which

875
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: was filed by Uber drivers who argue that it discriminates

876
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: against men. Lift, a rival ride sharing company, also faced

877
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: a similar discrimination lawsuit over a similar offering that it

878
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: issued nationwide in twenty twenty four, according to the ap SO.

879
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: According to Uber's blog, this future allows women to request

880
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: a female driver through an option called women Drivers. Passengers

881
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 1: can opt for another ride if the wait for women

882
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: is too long. They can also reserve a trip with

883
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: a woman driver in advance. A third option allows female

884
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: users to set a preference for a female driver in

885
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: the app settings, which would increase the chances of being

886
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: matched with a woman, but doesn't guarantee it. Uber also

887
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: allows teen account users to request women drivers. Women drivers

888
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: can set the apps preferences to request trips with female writers,

889
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: and then they can turn off that preference anytime that

890
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: they want Now. Uber says that they hope that this

891
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: will help attract more women drivers. I know what you're thinking,

892
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: what about trans women? What about non binary folks? Well,

893
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: unlike Lifts Women Connect program, Uber's feature is not open

894
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: to riders or drivers who identify as don binary. According

895
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: to the AP for drivers, Uber says the company just

896
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: relies on the gender listed on somebody's driver's license, meaning

897
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: that for trans women, their ability to use the feature

898
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: basically kind of depends on whether or not their state

899
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: allows them to change their gender identification on documents. So

900
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: kind of goes back to what we talked about a

901
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: few episodes ago with Kansas, like freak, I think this

902
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: roll out. I have a lot of thoughts about this rollout.

903
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: I'll put it that way.

904
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a question here.

905
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: I have a question here because, like Bridget, if you

906
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 3: ever had the experience of like having like calling an Uber,

907
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: getting the profile picture and like the name and it's

908
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: like a woman is a woman's name, It's like a

909
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: feminine name, and then you get in the car and

910
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 3: there's like a man's not the person. Cause, like, like

911
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: my question is I'm like, okay, but what's stopping people

912
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 3: from doing that like this is the first time hearing

913
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: with any to like check their driver's license, because I

914
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: was like, I've definitely had that happen a couple of times,

915
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 3: and like, I don't know, for me, it was never

916
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: a like, oh my god, this feels like it's a

917
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 3: nefarious whatever. Like I was like, sure, whatever, I'm sure

918
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 3: you did that for whatever reason. But yeah, that's my

919
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 3: main question is just like how do you even enforce

920
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 3: the policy?

921
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I've had that experience more with food

922
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: delivery where it says Sheila, it's coming with through order

923
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't think. I don't know if

924
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: you're Shila, you don't match this picture. I always assume

925
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: it's like somebody couldn't use the app for some reason

926
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: and so now they're using like a girlfriend's account or

927
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: a friend's account. That's why I always assume. But that's

928
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: a good question of like I don't know how strict

929
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: the enforcement is on any of this, just.

930
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: The whole way down.

931
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how instrell strict the enforcement is on

932
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: any of this, just full stop. In response to this policy,

933
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: two California Uber drivers filed a class action lawsuit against Uber,

934
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: arguing that by potentially giving female drivers access to a

935
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: wider pool of passengers, the feature violates California's UNRU Act,

936
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: which prohibits sex discrimination by business enterprises. The lawsuit also

937
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: argues that Uber's policy reinforces the gender stereotype that men

938
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: are more dangerous than women. So The Ape spoke to

939
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: Anne Oliverus, who is a co founder of a law

940
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: firm that specializes in sex discrimination and harassment cases, and

941
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: she said that she believes that ride share companies like

942
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: Uber and Lyft have a strong case against discrimination litigation

943
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: because the future addresses an urgent business need to protect clients.

944
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: Lowering a client risk of rape. Is that a business necessity?

945
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: I would argue that it is a business necessity, she said. So,

946
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: all of that being said, I have what might be

947
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 1: a little bit of an unpopular opinion about this, which

948
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: is that I don't like it. And here is why.

949
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,959
Speaker 1: So I want to be clear, it is true that

950
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: sexual assaults and assaults and harassment in ride share is

951
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: a problem. Between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two, Uber

952
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: received a report of sexual assault or misconduct almost every

953
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: eight minutes, totaling over four hundred thousand reports. Over five years,

954
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: which was far higher than a much smaller number around

955
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: twelve thousand of quote serious incidents that the company had

956
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: publicly disclosed. So I want to be clear that this

957
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: is a real problem. In twenty twenty one, Lift put

958
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: out a safety report that showed that four thousand, one

959
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty eight sexual assault reports from twenty seventeen

960
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen had occurred. That report came out on

961
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Lift has not released a safety report since,

962
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 1: and I want to talk about how that one report

963
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: from Lyft came to be. In one of our earliest

964
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: episodes of the podcast. I think it might have been

965
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: our third or four episode. We'll put that episode in

966
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: the show notes. We spoke to my friend Alison Turcos.

967
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: Alison Turcose is amazing. They have turned into an advocate

968
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: for making ride shares safer for everybody after a horrifying incident.

969
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: So just a heads up that this does include like

970
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: horrifying sexual fault content because Alison was sexually assaulted in

971
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: a lift in twenty seventeen. After a night out with friends,

972
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: they got into a lift. That driver had a gun

973
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: and at gunpoint drove Alison to a different state because

974
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: this has happened in Brooklyn, So like Brooklyn, New Jersey,

975
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, was a they're close by states where Alison

976
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: was then gang raped by multiple men. It is the

977
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: most horrifying, harrowing thing I have ever heard. Then they

978
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: sued Lift and to this day they are still fighting

979
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 1: to make ride shares safer for everybody because of that horrible,

980
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: horrible experience. And so the only reason why Lyft released

981
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: that report in twenty twenty one, that one report was

982
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 1: because Alison pushed and advocated for them to do so,

983
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: and they dragged their feet. They only did it kicking

984
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 1: and screaming because they continued to stay on Lift's asked

985
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: to make them do it. So the only reason we

986
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: even have any insight into those numbers is because of them.

987
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: And that was a dogfight that was like pulling teeth.

988
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: And so I guess what I'm saying is that people

989
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: like Alison who have had these horrible experiences, they have

990
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: had to use those experiences to push for these companies

991
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: to do the baseline right thing. And I want to

992
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: be clear that I think it is possible that this

993
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 1: women Riders Driver's thing might make the experience of ride

994
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: share safer, and if it prevents one assault, in my book,

995
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: that is great.

996
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 2: However, I also think they do these.

997
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: Little pr moves that are really kind of like bells

998
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: and whistles and add ons to avoid having to do

999
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: the more meaningful and urgent work of making their systems

1000
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: less exploitable, and they do that while continuing to silence

1001
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: and lie about the mostly women and non binary people

1002
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: who have been harmed because of their product. Right, and

1003
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: so if these companies like lift and Uber really did

1004
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: care about safety, they would be lifting these folks up,

1005
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: not silencing them.

1006
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I agree, I honestly, I it is

1007
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 3: in just saying like when you when you were starting

1008
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 3: the story, I sort of had a second where I

1009
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 3: was like, wow, am I gonna have to be the

1010
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: person on this one to be like I actually don't

1011
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 3: know about this, but no, it is like one of

1012
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 3: those things where because I've heard about this being a

1013
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 3: thing before, like I've heard about this being like a like, yeah,

1014
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: you could request women drivers personally, I've never used it,

1015
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 3: but it is always one of those things that to me,

1016
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 3: I'm like, how much does this actually protect people? Honestly,

1017
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, and like I mean, like you said,

1018
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 3: maybe it does, there's no real way of knowing for sure. Yeah,

1019
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 3: I agree with I use that, and I think it seems

1020
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 3: like it's it's more doing the pr than it is

1021
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: actually helping people. And that's where I'm like, even just

1022
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 3: the fact that there's such a like performative lawsuit about

1023
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 3: this from the other side where it's like obvious and

1024
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 3: again having just talked about a bunch of different lawsuits

1025
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: in this episode where it's like it's very expensive, you

1026
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 3: have to pay for all this stuff, and then you

1027
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: look at it, it's like these male Uber drivers are

1028
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 3: mad and it's like, Okay, this is definitely being funded

1029
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 3: by one of those like weird like we're taking back,

1030
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: we're ending woke kind of like it's the same thing

1031
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 3: with like the affirmative action stuff, Like it's like this

1032
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 3: is backed by like a bigger like political thing.

1033
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: This has nothing to do with like gender equality or whatever.

1034
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like the fact that they can do that

1035
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: and it's so obviously performative makes me wonder if like

1036
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 3: what Uber was trying to do was even effective in

1037
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 3: the first place.

1038
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I wonder the exact same thing. I

1039
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: would love to me, I have not seen studies that

1040
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 1: suggest that this meaningfully makes the experience of ride share safer.

1041
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: I will do some research and update folks, but I yeah,

1042
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: I just there are so many things that Uber and

1043
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: lyft and ride share could do if they wanted to

1044
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: be responsible for less harm, and I just don't like

1045
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: that they. And I also wonder like if some if

1046
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: somebody is assaulted or harmed, will they be like, oh, well,

1047
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: you should have picked that, like put the women driver's option.

1048
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: I just this is the way to put the onus

1049
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: back on us. And I just I don't know. I

1050
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 1: just I just don't like it. I don't I don't

1051
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: think it, and I just it's hard for me to

1052
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: read stories like this one where Uber and ride share

1053
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: companies are ostensibly doing something that like maybe kind of

1054
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: seems good and maybe is kind of good, without thinking

1055
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: about people like my friend Alison, who I know was

1056
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: so deeply harmed by a ride share company, and just

1057
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: the sheer amount of horror and pain that they had

1058
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: to go through and endure to even get these companies

1059
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: to be talking about safety. Like, I just see the

1060
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: way that the blood and sweat and harm and pain

1061
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: and grief and trauma of people like Alison is what

1062
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: gets us to these like pitily little like is not

1063
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 1: cannot possibly be enough to repair the damage that they

1064
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: have these companies have done. I just yeah, it's a

1065
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: tough one for me. Yeah.

1066
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And again what you said, Like it's like

1067
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 3: what's the response, like, oh, you should have picked the

1068
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 3: women's only one, Like maybe you should have Field and

1069
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 3: your employees better.

1070
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1071
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:04,439
Speaker 2: Contract, I mean yeah, that's.

1072
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 3: Also a bigger issue about like how Uber works where

1073
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 3: it's all like contracts directly what whatever. Yeah, there's bigger

1074
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 3: societal company specific issues here.

1075
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 2: Also, Like.

1076
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 3: I don't mean this in a like not all men

1077
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: women do this too kind of way, but like like

1078
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 3: it feels very like we're just putting, we're saying because

1079
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 3: this is only women, like nothing bad can happen, then,

1080
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 3: like what if something bad happens, Like what is the

1081
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 3: response to that.

1082
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: So something I've been feeling just in my digital diet

1083
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: is I'm using social media a lot less in general,

1084
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: but I'm using Instagram specifically a lot less. And it

1085
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: turns out I am not alone. Because a comprehensive report

1086
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: from Buffer analyzed tens of millions of posts from over

1087
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,959
Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety one thousand monthly users throughout twenty

1088
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: twenty five, and basically people are not using Instagram like

1089
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: they once were. I found declining interaction rates on Instagram,

1090
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: LinkedIn and threads, while platforms like X, Pinterest, and Facebook

1091
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: we're seeing gains. And we talked a little bit about this,

1092
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: but I am not surprised by any of this. I

1093
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: do you what's what is your?

1094
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 2: I'm surprised that X and Facebook are getting more.

1095
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 3: I guess I shouldn't be, because that's just more than

1096
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not the one using it at Facebook.

1097
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: I'm less surprised over because again, I.

1098
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 3: Think it's just the generational I am genuinely surprised that

1099
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 3: X is getting reviews.

1100
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 2: I am, however, yeah, very much not surprised.

1101
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 3: Uh.

1102
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: I've been having a very similar sort of thing with

1103
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: Instagram lately.

1104
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 3: It's I actually like if being a the your like

1105
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 3: totally just like deleted it off my phone for two

1106
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 3: weeks and it was hard, but like I don't know,

1107
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 3: like I've been going back and forth about just like

1108
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: trying to take it off my phone and I can't

1109
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 3: because I need to use it a lot for my

1110
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 3: job and for connecting with people, and like it is

1111
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 3: become a way how I like a big part of

1112
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 3: how I communicate with people. But I like I keep

1113
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 3: having I keep having to like think, be like, wow,

1114
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 3: I'm stressed. What are some things that are stressing me out?

1115
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 3: And like Instagram is always one of the ones that's

1116
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 3: just like right there, and I'm like, yeah, like my

1117
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 3: options are kind of just like continue to do this

1118
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: or delete it or like try to use less or whatever.

1119
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 3: But uh but yeah, no, one hundred percent totally hard.

1120
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 2: H I ad for the Instagram lately.

1121
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of have to be there to promote

1122
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: the show, the book, you know, a bunch of my

1123
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: other work. I don't. I find myself using it less

1124
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,439
Speaker 1: and less for genuine It once was a place where

1125
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: you would genuinely showcase like your personal life, what you

1126
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: were doing, where you were up, what you were up to.

1127
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: I don't really do that anymore. And I think part

1128
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: of it is that it I just I'm just burned

1129
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: out on social media and I think that Instagram is

1130
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: an app where they make such rapid changes that it

1131
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: is doesn't feel worth it to stay checked in to

1132
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: how the app works.

1133
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 2: Anymore.

1134
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: It is rare that I see people that I I

1135
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: know in real life that I have told Instagram that

1136
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: I want to follow, Like I'll be like, I'm following you.

1137
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: I want you in whatever the thing used to be

1138
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: able to pick to be like, I want to see

1139
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: this person's content first. I don't can't remember the last

1140
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: time I saw somebody that I genuinely know on Instagram.

1141
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: It's all people I don't know, influencers I don't know,

1142
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: And I don't use TikTok anymore since the since it

1143
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: was sold. But for a while it was just like, oh,

1144
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: do you want to see reels a week later that

1145
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: you or that people already saw on TikTok, Like That's

1146
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: how it was feeling. And also I used to be

1147
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: in a place where I would get feedback from Instagram

1148
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: about how to succeed on the platform. They're tripping, like

1149
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: the amount of work that they basically it's like you

1150
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: have to be I mean, this is just I don't

1151
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: remember what it actually was, but it was like, Oh,

1152
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: to perform well on the algorithm, you need to post

1153
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: five times a day a reel and once a day

1154
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 1: in the store and this and comment this many times,

1155
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: and you know, I am self employed. I don't work

1156
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: for Meta, and at some point it's like I'm just

1157
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: am I just working for this algorithm and then they're

1158
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: gonna change it in a week, and then all the

1159
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: stuff that I thought that I was told performed well

1160
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: on Monday by Friday is gonna be totally different, And

1161
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: just keeping up with that just became such a slog.

1162
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's genuinely like, there's exactly what you sud like.

1163
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 3: It either just moves so fast or it just is

1164
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 3: not really effective to begin with. I remember also reading

1165
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 3: something that had that same It was like post five

1166
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: reels a day, and I was like, I do not

1167
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 3: have time for that. Yeah, I agree about the algorithm too.

1168
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 3: I mean, my main issue with it recently because I

1169
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 3: went from I loved Instagram for so long. I think, like,

1170
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 3: especially like I'm a photographer, I like I it was

1171
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 3: really great. It was a great way to like keep

1172
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 3: up with what my friends were doing. It was a

1173
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 3: great way to like keep in.

1174
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: Touch with people.

1175
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: Now it's like literally every time I open it.

1176
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 3: I just recently had to go through and like block

1177
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 3: a bunch of celebrity and news sites because somehow it

1178
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 3: like you will like look at one thing for too

1179
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 3: long and that'll be your entire like feed. And I

1180
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 3: genuinely was just like I end up done a rabbit

1181
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 3: hole where I was like I keep like spiraling out

1182
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: over this, like comparing myself to people like doing all

1183
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 3: of these things.

1184
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, what am I doing?

1185
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 3: Like I'm literally and I was like, I the problem

1186
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 3: is I just keep getting all of these like celebrity

1187
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 3: news videos and I was like, I don't even care

1188
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 3: about this shit, Like this has nothing to do with

1189
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: my life. If I was, it would be one thing

1190
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 3: if I was opening and being like, oh cool, let's

1191
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 3: see what my friends are up to, or like I

1192
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 3: think a lot of like uh, a lot of like

1193
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 3: events stuff now is also on Instagram, Like a lot

1194
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 3: of like nightlife stuff that I go to, they're like

1195
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 3: promoting it on Instagram.

1196
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I kind of gonna stand on Instagram.

1197
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't know when things are happening, but like, yeah,

1198
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: there's also there's so many ads.

1199
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: Uh.

1200
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 3: That's where I'm at right now, is like trying to

1201
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 3: navigate being like this is a useful tool for me

1202
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 3: to keep in touch with people, for me to like

1203
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 3: promote my work for me to do whatever.

1204
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: Also, I need to find a way for it not

1205
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: to like, yeah, give.

1206
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 3: Me like panic attacks every time I open it, because like,

1207
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 3: I yeah, it's either that or it's like you end

1208
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 3: up on some sort of like I think getting a

1209
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 3: lot of like very rage baby like Instagram reels lately too,

1210
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 3: I think, like really word because TikTok, there's definitely a

1211
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 3: problem with this. It's it's somehow worse on reels, like

1212
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 3: I think it'scifically if you're thinking it so like the

1213
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 3: kind of.

1214
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 2: Con surprise prize.

1215
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 3: I get a lot of like content aimed at like

1216
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 3: queer people on TikTok, I feel like it's much more

1217
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 3: aligned with what I want to see.

1218
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 2: And then on reels it's like stuff that is like.

1219
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 3: Genuinely like I'll have to stop and be like, is

1220
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 3: this rage bait or is this something like somebody is

1221
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 3: like legitimately making like it feels much more like I

1222
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 3: don't really know, like this feel like it's so obvious

1223
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 3: they're just trying to like manipulate the algorithm to the

1224
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 3: point that I'm like, what am I doing on this app?

1225
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, Uh, one of my goals for

1226
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: this year that has been going very poorly.

1227
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 3: Is I I as a very ear I'm like, I'm

1228
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 3: gonna spend time less time on like social media and

1229
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 3: try to repair the fact that my brain like doesn't

1230
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 3: have an attention span anymore.

1231
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: But you know what, it's hard.

1232
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: It's hard.

1233
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 3: I'll give to you all everybody else trying to do that.

1234
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 3: It's as somebody who's been like trying to use Instagram

1235
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 3: blasts over the last.

1236
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: Like how many months in the year. We two and

1237
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 2: a half months now, Like, it's it's really hard.

1238
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: Now, I'm with you. My I had to sort of

1239
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: divest from a lot of mine was Shade Room and

1240
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: other kinds of like there's just a just a such

1241
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 1: a scourge of.

1242
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: Like black like aimed at black audiences.

1243
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: Like you can tell it's aimed at black audiences. Just

1244
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: the worst bass content you've ever seen in your life,

1245
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: and something about it this pulls me in, Like you

1246
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: can say, any misogynistic, transphobic, queer phobic, fat phobic, fucked

1247
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,919
Speaker 1: up thing on Instagram, and I just had I found

1248
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: myself in just a toxic relationship with that kind of content.

1249
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: I had to go through and unfollow and block specific accounts,

1250
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: and I think I might be more susceptible than your

1251
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: average bear on this one because I get pulled in

1252
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: and then you're just training the algorithm that's like, oh,

1253
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: so you like this post that shared a picture of

1254
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: the fact that your favorite singer, Shade has a gender

1255
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: non conforming child, and you like that this outlet posted

1256
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: the picture of the child and it's the word thoughts,

1257
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: question mark. You like content like that, And it's like

1258
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: they never I mean I could talk all day, they

1259
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: never come out and say it that the kind of

1260
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: content defines me. They never come out and say it,

1261
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: but you know exactly what they're insinuating. The comments are

1262
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: all crazy either all hateful, and I just like it

1263
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: was like fo I felt like that kind of stuff

1264
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: was following me around the internet. It was just so

1265
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: toxic for me.

1266
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's bad.

1267
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 3: Yeah again, Like I fully just like deleted Instagram off

1268
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 3: my phone for like a week at the beginning of

1269
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 3: this year because like, I don't know, like I had

1270
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:20,919
Speaker 3: I had kind of a rough start to a year,

1271
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 3: and like there was just like a point where like

1272
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 3: one of the things that was really bugging me was

1273
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 3: I was like I just have like I'm.

1274
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 2: Somebody that lives in like a very you know, I'm

1275
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 2: very lucky.

1276
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 3: I'm able to be very very like openly queer and

1277
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 3: like openly like gender not conforming and stuff like that.

1278
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: But it was like I've like was reaching a point

1279
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 2: where I was.

1280
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 3: Like getting stressed and I was like getting anxious about

1281
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 3: like presenting the way that I do.

1282
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 2: And I was like, I'm not getting this from the

1283
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 2: people around me.

1284
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 3: I'm getting this from being on my phone all the time,

1285
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 3: like genuinely, And.

1286
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so ry, And I mean, I agree with you.

1287
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 3: I think I'm the same way where I was like,

1288
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 3: I definitely get sucked into the like the rabbit hole

1289
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 3: of whatever the thing is. I'm in an abusive relationship

1290
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 3: with Instagram. I think that's what I'm gonna say, because

1291
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 3: I know I'm not going to delete it, but uh,

1292
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 3: I hate it. I hate what it's doing with my brain.

1293
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 3: But also I'm on it all the time, So you're

1294
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 3: not one.

1295
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: Of the people that's using it less maybe you did

1296
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: when you deleted it.

1297
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 3: I want you, Yeah, I aspire to.

1298
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 2: I'm really trying.

1299
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 3: It's not going super well, but I'm really trying. But yeah,

1300
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 3: and again, like what I was saying, it's also hard.

1301
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 3: Like I one of my goals for myself this year

1302
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 3: was I was like, I want to get back into

1303
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 3: posting a lot of my photography, and I've been trying

1304
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 3: to do like I have done something modeling on the

1305
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 3: side and stuff like that, and I was like, well,

1306
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 3: I need.

1307
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 2: To use my Instagram to promote that, like I need to.

1308
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 3: Like that's kind of like the way that I make

1309
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 3: Like that's how I also connect with other artists. That's

1310
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 3: how I like show people the work that I'm doing.

1311
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 3: Our only option is the thing that's like ruining all

1312
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 3: of our brains. So I guess I'm just gonna keep

1313
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 3: using the thing that's ruining all our brains, Like I.

1314
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 2: Don't know what else I'm supposed to do.

1315
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sometimes it feels like we have a little bit

1316
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 1: of a dismal digital landscape, but we have places like

1317
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: AO three. We have there is hope.

1318
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 2: We have places like AO three. That is again, at

1319
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: the end of the fucking day, AO three is what

1320
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: gives me hope in this world.

1321
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 1: Always nice to end on a little bit of Internet

1322
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 1: landscape hope.

1323
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 2: Joey, thank you so much for being here. Where can

1324
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 2: folks keep up with you, of course at your time.

1325
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:31,959
Speaker 2: You can find me failing to not be on Instagram at.

1326
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 3: At Pat not prat that's p attn ot, p R

1327
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:43,639
Speaker 3: A T T. That's also my Twitter and other things

1328
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,680
Speaker 3: that I only really use Instagram. You can find me

1329
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 3: on TikTok at Hot Topic Dad. That's hot topic like

1330
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 3: the store and then dad like the Father Figure. You

1331
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 3: can hear more of my work.

1332
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 2: On There Are No Girls the Internet.

1333
01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 3: You can also check out some of our other outspoken

1334
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 3: shows like Outlaws, The TS Madison, The Black Bat fan Podcast,

1335
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 3: and Afterlives, all of which feature work that I've done.

1336
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, find me online, find me walking around with

1337
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 3: my ESPN podcast hat find me and I'm still waking

1338
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 3: for whatever the next heated rivalry raves near where I live.

1339
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 3: I want to dress up as as Scott with the

1340
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 3: like baseball hat on in the sunglasses. I think that

1341
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 3: would be fun. That's also just how I dress most days.

1342
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 3: But Bridget, you have a Gonolin episode. Yeah, that's the

1343
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 3: Captain America one. That's yeah, okay, I'll watch.

1344
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: It and then I'll report back again.

1345
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 3: This is It's so weird because I was like, I

1346
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 3: have this one weird area of expertise from having been

1347
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,759
Speaker 3: a weird kid on the internet at sixteen. Embrace cringe,

1348
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 3: Embrace the weird thing you're into. You never know when

1349
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 3: it's gonna become the biggest piece of media of the year.

1350
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:07,879
Speaker 1: Yes, and please embrace our audio book, Love at First Prompt.

1351
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: You can pre order it at Love at First Prompt

1352
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: dot AI. If you do that and you send me

1353
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 1: a screenshot of you of your pre order or an

1354
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: email with your screenshot of your pre order, we will

1355
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 1: send you a handwritten thank you card and a sticker.

1356
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: So please do that. Thanks to everybody who's already done it.

1357
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to all of you for listening. I

1358
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: will see you on the Internet. Got a story about

1359
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi?

1360
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tegody dot com.

1361
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody

1362
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was

1363
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,480
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget tod. It's a production of iHeartRadio,

1364
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 1: an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari

1365
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is

1366
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:53,480
Speaker 1: our contributing producer, I'm your host.

1367
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 4: Bridget Todd.

1368
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review.

1369
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:57,720
Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts.

1370
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,799
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, called the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1371
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,