1 00:00:13,630 --> 00:00:14,030 Speaker 1: Hi, guys. 2 00:00:14,130 --> 00:00:17,500 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Fessler. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. 3 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:21,300 Speaker 2: So two people are murdered. A woman is convicted and 4 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: sentenced to life. But years later, a group of amateur 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: sleuths become convinced police got the wrong person, and their 6 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:34,230 Speaker 2: investigation uncovers a possible alternative suspect. After six years digging 7 00:00:34,270 --> 00:00:36,970 Speaker 2: into the case, the filmmakers behind a killer story still 8 00:00:37,150 --> 00:00:40,370 Speaker 2: don't have a simple answer. In fact, they say they 9 00:00:40,409 --> 00:00:44,780 Speaker 2: wouldn't have convicted Dana Chandler. So did they get it wrong? Today, 10 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:48,300 Speaker 2: director Matthew Galkin and executive producer Josh Levine take us 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,620 Speaker 2: inside a killer story and the murder investigation that refuses 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,220 Speaker 2: to stay buried. Thank you for joining. 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: Our pleasure. 14 00:00:55,980 --> 00:00:57,580 Speaker 4: Thanks for having us. 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,540 Speaker 2: So here's the thing. I loved this documentary. And I 16 00:01:01,740 --> 00:01:05,310 Speaker 2: don't say that to everyone. Just in case you're wondering. 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,810 Speaker 2: I thought it was so great. I thought it was 18 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:09,950 Speaker 2: great for so many reasons. I mean, I always say that. 19 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:11,429 Speaker 2: My cut's kind of gross, right? 20 00:01:11,510 --> 00:01:12,070 Speaker 1: It's about. 21 00:01:12,530 --> 00:01:17,910 Speaker 2: people being murdered. So there's that. But, um, the way 22 00:01:17,930 --> 00:01:23,020 Speaker 2: the story was so captivating and just even like, I 23 00:01:23,020 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: don't know, I kind of fell for Joe Sexton. I 24 00:01:25,660 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: thought he was so funny. And so maybe because he 25 00:01:29,540 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: like dropped the F bomb constantly, but I just, which 26 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:35,150 Speaker 2: I sort of like, I just thought he was fascinating 27 00:01:35,290 --> 00:01:38,180 Speaker 2: to watch and to listen to. And, I don't know, 28 00:01:38,340 --> 00:01:42,350 Speaker 2: pen pal, the whole thing, I thought. And really, unfortunately, though, 29 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:44,950 Speaker 2: very unsatisfying at the end. But I don't think there's 30 00:01:44,970 --> 00:01:46,470 Speaker 2: anything you could have done about that. But all right, 31 00:01:46,850 --> 00:01:49,430 Speaker 2: let's just kind of jump in, please. Tell me what 32 00:01:49,530 --> 00:01:53,660 Speaker 2: led you guys to this story. Why a killer story? 33 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:57,380 Speaker 1: I mean, I was reached out to by Story Syndicate, 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: who's the production company that ultimately produced the documentary. This 35 00:02:00,660 --> 00:02:03,740 Speaker 1: had started with Joe Sexta actually receiving the tip from Eileen. 36 00:02:04,250 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the whole genesis of this project was 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,300 Speaker 1: literally how it was portrayed in the series. So Joe 38 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:13,660 Speaker 1: brought it to Story Syndicate because I think he realized 39 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: quite early on that there is a great, you know, 40 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,340 Speaker 1: he's a journalist. So like, I think his first thought 41 00:02:19,380 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: is like, okay, well, this could be a great series 42 00:02:21,740 --> 00:02:24,340 Speaker 1: of articles or a great book or a great piece 43 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,180 Speaker 1: of long form journalism. But he saw the layers in 44 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:31,020 Speaker 1: here that were very specifically about true crime TV and 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,169 Speaker 1: true crime entertainment. And I think he's, initial thought is like, oh, 46 00:02:34,230 --> 00:02:36,850 Speaker 1: I should bring this to a production company that I 47 00:02:37,030 --> 00:02:40,970 Speaker 1: have a previous relationship with. And Story Syndicate is Liz Garbus' 48 00:02:41,610 --> 00:02:44,470 Speaker 1: and Dan Kogan's production company. It's great, you know, sort 49 00:02:44,490 --> 00:02:47,330 Speaker 1: of top of the mountain for documentary work. So he 50 00:02:47,350 --> 00:02:47,790 Speaker 1: brought it there. 51 00:02:48,090 --> 00:02:48,770 Speaker 4: They called me. 52 00:02:49,910 --> 00:02:53,650 Speaker 1: I instantly called Josh Levine. You know, we were both 53 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: incredibly drawn in. The details of the case are certainly interesting, 54 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:03,049 Speaker 1: but then when you meet Joe Sexton... And you realize 55 00:03:03,070 --> 00:03:07,980 Speaker 1: what a phenomenal journalistic voice and character he is. 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,660 Speaker 2: I'm so glad it wasn't just me. 57 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: Okay. No, no, no. 58 00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:13,940 Speaker 1: And then what kind of lens he can provide. You know, 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,230 Speaker 1: we were both kind of film nerds in a lot 60 00:03:17,270 --> 00:03:19,290 Speaker 1: of ways. And there's, there was a lot of, there 61 00:03:19,310 --> 00:03:21,470 Speaker 1: are a lot of layers to the story that, that are, 62 00:03:21,850 --> 00:03:27,820 Speaker 1: reminded us of film noir, of crime stories from mid-20th century. 63 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,020 Speaker 1: There's sort of Coen brothers aspects to this story. 64 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:33,340 Speaker 4: We're all just sort of like, okay, this could be 65 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:37,140 Speaker 4: stylistically very interesting and rich for us to explore. I'll 66 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 4: let Josh sort of continue that. 67 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: Well, let me just, I'm just going to jump in 68 00:03:40,770 --> 00:03:42,710 Speaker 2: if you don't mind, because I made these notes. Just, 69 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:47,650 Speaker 2: there were so many in terms of stylistically, even like 70 00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:49,810 Speaker 2: when you guys zoomed in, I remember at the beginning of, 71 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,300 Speaker 2: in the town on the sign that just said like museum. 72 00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:55,580 Speaker 2: And do you know what I'm talking about? And it 73 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: was like this really haunting, creepy, stupid. 74 00:03:59,420 --> 00:03:59,500 Speaker 3: It. 75 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,650 Speaker 2: Really felt, this one for me felt like a story. 76 00:04:06,710 --> 00:04:09,790 Speaker 2: I didn't key in as much the true crime of 77 00:04:09,830 --> 00:04:11,150 Speaker 2: it all. I don't know if that's a good thing 78 00:04:11,210 --> 00:04:13,650 Speaker 2: or a bad thing because I found there were so 79 00:04:13,690 --> 00:04:18,750 Speaker 2: many parts of it maybe because of Joe that were comical. And, okay, 80 00:04:18,770 --> 00:04:20,270 Speaker 2: so tell me about that, please, Josh, I don't mean 81 00:04:20,290 --> 00:04:20,870 Speaker 2: to interrupt. 82 00:04:21,150 --> 00:04:24,050 Speaker 3: No, no, no, it's fine. I think, you know, that was, 83 00:04:24,610 --> 00:04:26,289 Speaker 3: Matthew and I have both done a lot of true crime. 84 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:29,390 Speaker 5: And so I think that was the draw initially when 85 00:04:29,410 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 5: we started working on it. There was a question when 86 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:34,260 Speaker 5: it came to us of like, do we include Joe 87 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 5: or not? 88 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,620 Speaker 3: It was very clear, of course we need to. 89 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:44,260 Speaker 5: And so the layers of the story provided opportunity for 90 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 5: it to be more than genre. And so we talk 91 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:49,460 Speaker 5: about it a lot as a story about a story. 92 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 5: And I think that was really the most interesting part. 93 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 5: And then when we met Keenan and Eileen, it all 94 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 5: became really their relationship and their work as a base 95 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:04,260 Speaker 5: or sort of a lens to see this crime through. 96 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:05,059 Speaker 3: Yeah. 97 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: And a lot of the stylistic choices Because it is 98 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: a story about stories, because there are these kind of 99 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:17,270 Speaker 1: crime slash entertainment layers to this, I think we approached this. 100 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:20,190 Speaker 4: Stylistically in a very deliberate way. 101 00:05:20,430 --> 00:05:26,020 Speaker 1: More maybe in line with scripted narrative crime stories and 102 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: maybe less so in like a verite documentary kind of way, 103 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,940 Speaker 1: even though there are elements. in the series of that, 104 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: but it was probably more deliberate than almost anything we 105 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,020 Speaker 1: had ever done before because of, because of the story that. 106 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 4: We were trying to tell. 107 00:05:39,980 --> 00:05:42,140 Speaker 2: Well, listen, you don't need me to tell you this, 108 00:05:42,170 --> 00:05:45,370 Speaker 2: but it worked. I found the whole thing. And again, 109 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:47,190 Speaker 2: I mean, I it's right. It's like a, it's a 110 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:49,350 Speaker 2: little awkward to sit here and say that I found 111 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:53,370 Speaker 2: the story about a true double homicide entertaining, but I 112 00:05:53,390 --> 00:05:56,310 Speaker 2: don't know. It's your fault, not mine. So anyway, that's 113 00:05:56,350 --> 00:05:59,430 Speaker 2: on you. um so and also the way that you 114 00:05:59,450 --> 00:06:02,630 Speaker 2: did highlight eileen and keen and i know i'm saying 115 00:06:02,650 --> 00:06:05,489 Speaker 2: that's how you say his name right keen yeah keen 116 00:06:06,190 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: um and their relationship and their i mean that has 117 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: nothing to do with this story and yet it does 118 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: it's i mean it certainly has to do with you 119 00:06:15,020 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: know the film and the way that this whole thing 120 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:20,539 Speaker 2: unfolded they are the reason a big part of the 121 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,700 Speaker 2: reason why right that that that Dana got focused on 122 00:06:25,740 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: again and they did so much work and all of that, 123 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: but just them, they are, they're such an interesting couple. 124 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,340 Speaker 2: I still don't get it. Like, I still don't understand 125 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: what really makes these people tick. Like, what are you doing? 126 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,740 Speaker 2: Why are you so, and I don't know if it's, 127 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,740 Speaker 2: maybe it's Jesus. Maybe it's just their fascination for true crime, 128 00:06:45,220 --> 00:06:49,050 Speaker 2: but they are fascinating. The obsession, right? I mean, do 129 00:06:49,370 --> 00:06:51,409 Speaker 2: they have kids by the way? They do. 130 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:52,810 Speaker 3: They have four sons. 131 00:06:53,270 --> 00:06:55,089 Speaker 2: Oh, come on. You gotta be kidding me. 132 00:06:55,589 --> 00:06:58,350 Speaker 1: And they're not allowed to speak of the Dana Chandler 133 00:06:58,370 --> 00:07:00,370 Speaker 1: case in the presence of their family. 134 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:03,190 Speaker 2: Like you've lost your effing mind. 135 00:07:04,490 --> 00:07:05,370 Speaker 4: A little bit, yeah. 136 00:07:05,589 --> 00:07:09,270 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there is a layer of obsession there. But, 137 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: I mean, they are true believers. 138 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,540 Speaker 2: Still, are they? 139 00:07:14,980 --> 00:07:17,660 Speaker 4: They're full believers in Dana's innocence, for sure. 140 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:18,620 Speaker 2: Okay. 141 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,330 Speaker 1: But they are true believers in their faith. They're true 142 00:07:22,350 --> 00:07:25,230 Speaker 1: believers in justice and they're true believers in each other. 143 00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:29,570 Speaker 1: And I think that there's something incredibly earnest and sweet 144 00:07:29,710 --> 00:07:31,810 Speaker 1: about the way that they love each other and the 145 00:07:31,850 --> 00:07:33,590 Speaker 1: way they truly I'm married. 146 00:07:33,710 --> 00:07:35,830 Speaker 4: Like, I don't have that. I don't have that relationship 147 00:07:35,870 --> 00:07:37,050 Speaker 4: with my wife. I love her. 148 00:07:37,410 --> 00:07:40,430 Speaker 1: But like the way that they I mean, how many years, Josh, 149 00:07:40,450 --> 00:07:43,330 Speaker 1: have they been married? 30, 40 and more. 150 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:45,490 Speaker 3: I mean, they've been together since they were in high school. 151 00:07:45,890 --> 00:07:47,500 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got good news for you. Nobody has that 152 00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: relationship with their wife or their husband. I haven't seen that. 153 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,900 Speaker 4: You can call them insane, but there's. 154 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: I like them so much. 155 00:07:58,580 --> 00:08:04,260 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. It almost becomes aspirational to me. 156 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe in anything as much as they believe 157 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,900 Speaker 1: in Dandana's innocence. 158 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 4: I find them quite moving. 159 00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:14,770 Speaker 3: In a lot of ways. 160 00:08:15,130 --> 00:08:17,570 Speaker 2: So do I. And even their story, they met, they 161 00:08:17,590 --> 00:08:22,290 Speaker 2: were babies, right? They were like, what, 15 or something ridiculous. 162 00:08:23,550 --> 00:08:27,170 Speaker 2: And just the whole way down. One of the parts 163 00:08:27,210 --> 00:08:30,290 Speaker 2: of this that did upset me, though, was that I 164 00:08:30,430 --> 00:08:35,770 Speaker 2: really hope that Keene did not have an ulterior motive 165 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:40,410 Speaker 2: for the accusations against Jeff Sutton. I wish you could 166 00:08:40,429 --> 00:08:42,170 Speaker 2: have just like left that out because I only want 167 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: to see him as pure and good. I hope that really, 168 00:08:45,460 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: and I couldn't, I don't think so personally from having 169 00:08:48,020 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: watched it. What do you guys think? 170 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 3: Yeah. 171 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:52,589 Speaker 5: I mean, I think that complication is one of the 172 00:08:52,610 --> 00:08:56,330 Speaker 5: things that's really interesting, you know, because that initially was 173 00:08:56,710 --> 00:08:59,969 Speaker 5: what drew them to the crime, their personal relationship, whether 174 00:08:59,990 --> 00:09:05,420 Speaker 5: or not that bias clouded them to the degree that, 175 00:09:05,980 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 5: you know, that they couldn't see the forest for the 176 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 5: trees here. I don't know, but that's certainly a big 177 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,690 Speaker 5: part of it. And I think to leave that out 178 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:15,330 Speaker 5: would have been a mistake because, Yeah. Because they're not 179 00:09:15,370 --> 00:09:20,170 Speaker 5: purely altruistic. Like they had this connection to Jeff Sutton. 180 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:22,230 Speaker 2: You're breaking my heart, but okay. 181 00:09:22,610 --> 00:09:25,380 Speaker 4: I mean, you've seen, obviously you've seen all three episodes. 182 00:09:25,429 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: So, you know, I think to Josh's point, one of 183 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,420 Speaker 1: the draws was that this became much more complicated than 184 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: maybe it appears on its surface in episode one. 185 00:09:35,740 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 4: There's just like layers. Oh yeah. We were, this was 186 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:40,570 Speaker 4: rolling on in real time. 187 00:09:40,620 --> 00:09:45,670 Speaker 1: So we were, we started filming this in 2021. early 2020. 188 00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:48,230 Speaker 1: And so, you know, at that point, Dana had not 189 00:09:48,290 --> 00:09:51,710 Speaker 1: been retried. So when we jumped on the train, we 190 00:09:51,730 --> 00:09:55,650 Speaker 1: were just sort of experiencing these complications as they arose 191 00:09:55,750 --> 00:10:02,099 Speaker 1: through this case. So you know, the deeper we went, 192 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,339 Speaker 1: the more layers sort of revealed themselves. And the fact 193 00:10:05,380 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: that you couldn't directly just say Keenan and Eileen were 194 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: 100 percent altruistic and like just questioning their motives became quite. 195 00:10:13,210 --> 00:10:15,180 Speaker 1: It was an interesting storytelling layer for us. 196 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: That was a bummer. But also the thing is when, 197 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:21,530 Speaker 2: you know, getting the information that we did get on 198 00:10:21,570 --> 00:10:25,610 Speaker 2: Jeff Sutton, it certainly seemed his DNA obviously was not 199 00:10:26,110 --> 00:10:28,349 Speaker 2: the hair that was tied onto the bullet, but then again, 200 00:10:28,390 --> 00:10:32,710 Speaker 2: neither was Dana's, but it certainly seemed feasible, you know, 201 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: that he had, I'm not saying, I am not saying 202 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,700 Speaker 2: that he did in fact commit this, these murders, but 203 00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: you know, he had a background sort of shady more 204 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,209 Speaker 2: so than Dana did. Right. So, That's the thing with that. 205 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:50,030 Speaker 2: You're Josh. You're like, do you think Dana has a 206 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:50,489 Speaker 2: shaky back? 207 00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:52,610 Speaker 5: No, I didn't mean to say it like that. It's, 208 00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:56,690 Speaker 5: I think, you know, they definitely had a case there 209 00:10:56,750 --> 00:10:59,330 Speaker 5: to be made against them. I think Dana had, you know, 210 00:10:59,350 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 5: I was shaking my head because I think Dana does 211 00:11:01,030 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 5: have a lot of stuff in her past that that's problematic. 212 00:11:03,380 --> 00:11:06,939 Speaker 2: Well, besides the emails, what besides obviously she didn't get custody. 213 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,579 Speaker 2: She's an alcoholic, although, or excuse me, recovering alcoholic, but, 214 00:11:13,429 --> 00:11:17,710 Speaker 2: If I'm correct, Mike was also an alcoholic, right? So 215 00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:18,670 Speaker 2: they were both drinking. 216 00:11:19,170 --> 00:11:21,420 Speaker 5: They were both heavy drinkers, yeah. I just think they 217 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:24,260 Speaker 5: had a contentious divorce. And I think there were a 218 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:29,780 Speaker 5: lot of both allegations and proven instances where there was 219 00:11:29,820 --> 00:11:30,540 Speaker 5: a little bit of. 220 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,179 Speaker 3: Stalking or spying on him. There was a lot of rapid. 221 00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:38,870 Speaker 5: Calling to the house at all hours. I think certainly 222 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:42,300 Speaker 5: Mike and Karen's families had issues. 223 00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:45,490 Speaker 3: So I don't think it was out of left field. 224 00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:47,970 Speaker 3: I mean, but that contributed to their bias. Like it 225 00:11:48,030 --> 00:11:48,790 Speaker 3: has to be her. 226 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:53,630 Speaker 5: And so I think it dovetails, you know, into the 227 00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:57,270 Speaker 5: story about who's telling what story. 228 00:11:56,890 --> 00:11:57,890 Speaker 3: And who do you believe? 229 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,500 Speaker 5: Because, you know, I think he and Eileen are correct 230 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,900 Speaker 5: in that there are a lot of good reasons to 231 00:12:04,940 --> 00:12:06,770 Speaker 5: believe that Jeff Sutton had it. 232 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:08,699 Speaker 3: And I think a judge agreed, you know? 233 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,390 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously not enough, but in my mind, 234 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:17,170 Speaker 2: there's not enough, obviously, and I would think most of 235 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:19,689 Speaker 2: the viewers would get on board with there is not 236 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:20,689 Speaker 2: enough evidence. 237 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:21,090 Speaker 3: Here, right? 238 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:25,530 Speaker 2: For her to have been convicted, although she was. So, 239 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,929 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I wasn't in the jury, on 240 00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:33,470 Speaker 2: the jury, but that fact that she decided to represent 241 00:12:33,510 --> 00:12:35,589 Speaker 2: herself in real time and you guys had to watch 242 00:12:35,650 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: that happen, you must have died. Like if you're making 243 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: a film, okay, you're making it, I'm just picturing you're 244 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: making a true crime doc and this crazy person decides 245 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 2: to represent herself. Like what is better TV than that? Sorry, 246 00:12:48,740 --> 00:12:50,459 Speaker 2: but that's my guess. Am I right? 247 00:12:50,780 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: You're true, you are right. 248 00:12:52,340 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: And when we realized there was going to be a 249 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,890 Speaker 1: third trial, you know, strictly from a storytelling point of view, 250 00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:00,870 Speaker 1: I think the worry is like, this is just going 251 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:02,610 Speaker 1: to be a redux of the second trial because she 252 00:13:02,630 --> 00:13:05,150 Speaker 1: had the same legal team. There were the same, basically 253 00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: the same details that they were going to argue. And 254 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: I think we all kind of figured, at least I did, 255 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,220 Speaker 1: that it would probably be another hung jury and she'd probably. 256 00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:14,979 Speaker 4: Walk and that would be the end of it. But 257 00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:16,699 Speaker 4: when she sort of pulled. 258 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:20,750 Speaker 1: That left turn and decided to represent herself, it was, 259 00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:22,420 Speaker 1: we were, I mean, it was sort of like, let's 260 00:13:22,450 --> 00:13:23,250 Speaker 1: hang on for dear life. 261 00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:23,970 Speaker 3: This is crazy. 262 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:27,250 Speaker 1: What it did do ultimately, which is, has been, had 263 00:13:27,309 --> 00:13:30,550 Speaker 1: been a creative challenge for us is because we don't 264 00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:31,590 Speaker 1: have a Dana interview. 265 00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:33,780 Speaker 4: She didn't sit for it. 266 00:13:34,390 --> 00:13:34,790 Speaker 3: Of course. 267 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:35,150 Speaker 2: Yeah. 268 00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: And she didn't sit for a jailhouse interview for, For us, 269 00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:41,260 Speaker 1: of course, we wanted to have her tell her own story. 270 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,180 Speaker 1: But given what transpired in the third trial, she did 271 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:48,150 Speaker 1: tell her own story. She put herself on the stand. 272 00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:52,230 Speaker 1: You know, we basically got Dana Chandler's story from Dana Chandler. 273 00:13:52,929 --> 00:13:56,510 Speaker 1: So it afforded us as storytellers, it was a real 274 00:13:56,590 --> 00:13:57,550 Speaker 1: luxury in that way. 275 00:13:57,570 --> 00:13:58,390 Speaker 3: Yeah. 276 00:13:58,410 --> 00:13:58,569 Speaker 4: Yeah. 277 00:13:59,670 --> 00:14:01,110 Speaker 2: I hate to say like you lucked out. I mean, 278 00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:03,890 Speaker 2: this is a true crime is so it's crazy, right? 279 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:06,130 Speaker 2: Because we're talking about, and I have to always remind 280 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:08,010 Speaker 2: myself of this, of real, we're talking about real people. 281 00:14:08,130 --> 00:14:12,090 Speaker 2: People were murdered here. This is not like all, but again, 282 00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:14,239 Speaker 2: it's your fault. I just, the whole, the film is 283 00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: very entertaining and crazy and frustrating. And I still don't 284 00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:25,300 Speaker 2: think she did it. I don't. Do you? 285 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: I don't know. 286 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:27,310 Speaker 4: Oh, you have to. 287 00:14:27,340 --> 00:14:29,610 Speaker 2: Come on. Stop it right now. I'm not going to 288 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:30,450 Speaker 2: hold you to it. 289 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:33,730 Speaker 4: What do you think? No, of course you're not. You can. 290 00:14:33,770 --> 00:14:35,140 Speaker 4: I don't care if you do it or not. 291 00:14:35,170 --> 00:14:38,390 Speaker 1: I really genuinely do not know whether she did it 292 00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:41,250 Speaker 1: or not. I would say if I were to place 293 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: bets that she would be a good bet. But without 294 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: there will never, ever be certainty. That's sort of what 295 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: Joe is getting at at the end. It's like without evidence. 296 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,700 Speaker 1: How can you ever be certain either way that she 297 00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:53,100 Speaker 1: did it. 298 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: Or didn't do it? 299 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,140 Speaker 3: I know. Yes. 300 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,690 Speaker 4: You know, so I don't, you know, over the course of. 301 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,500 Speaker 2: So you wouldn't have convicted her. I feel like you 302 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: guys have said. 303 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 4: Zero percent chance. 304 00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:04,100 Speaker 1: Because if I were to do my civic duty as 305 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: a juror and the and the duty, the bar to 306 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,060 Speaker 1: clear is beyond a shadow of a doubt. 307 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 4: Like, how can you ever convict her? Because of course 308 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 4: there's the doubt. There's no evidence. So it's all circumstantial. 309 00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:18,820 Speaker 4: And the case against Sutton was all circumstantial. You know, 310 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 4: it's just it's it's so. 311 00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: Well, this is one of these things that is so 312 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,060 Speaker 1: fascinating to both Josh and I, and to Joe. This 313 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,900 Speaker 1: is sort of like, it is just the deeper you go, 314 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:30,660 Speaker 1: the more elusive the truth becomes. And again, as storytellers, 315 00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:33,530 Speaker 1: that's really interesting terrain to walk on. 316 00:15:33,710 --> 00:15:35,830 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Josh, you're not getting off the hook here. 317 00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:36,989 Speaker 2: What do you think? 318 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:39,350 Speaker 3: Well, no, I think it's also interesting. 319 00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:43,230 Speaker 5: I think similar to Matthew and Joe is that I 320 00:15:43,270 --> 00:15:46,910 Speaker 5: would not have voted to convict. There wasn't the evidence. And, 321 00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 5: you know, her story really falls apart. So I think 322 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 5: she's certainly the one that makes sense the most. At 323 00:15:56,540 --> 00:15:59,619 Speaker 5: the same time, you know, not only the lack of 324 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:03,070 Speaker 5: physical evidence, but just knowing what we know about the crime, 325 00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:06,190 Speaker 5: we don't know how it was possible for her to 326 00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:08,370 Speaker 5: have done it. I mean, there's just so many questions 327 00:16:08,430 --> 00:16:10,370 Speaker 5: about how she got into the house, how she would 328 00:16:10,390 --> 00:16:13,950 Speaker 5: have gotten an Uzi style weapon or Israeli made blue 329 00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:17,870 Speaker 5: tip bullets. It just doesn't make sense. Um, and so 330 00:16:18,370 --> 00:16:22,290 Speaker 5: the ending, if it's unsatisfying is that's real life, you know, 331 00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:24,750 Speaker 5: like we don't know what happened. And I think that 332 00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:29,500 Speaker 5: also plays into going against, you know, the true crime genre, 333 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:31,460 Speaker 5: which is, you know, we didn't know. 334 00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:32,620 Speaker 3: Right. 335 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:33,380 Speaker 2: Wrap it up. 336 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,100 Speaker 5: So for the audience, the audience wants certainty and like, 337 00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:37,900 Speaker 5: we can't provide that. And so I don't think we 338 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,570 Speaker 5: wanted to, when we didn't have it ourselves. 339 00:16:55,650 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 4: What did you want the ending to be like when 340 00:16:58,300 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 4: you were watching it? Where did you want to go? 341 00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: I wanted her to get off. I wanted it. I wanted, 342 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: of course, I wanted her free and clear. And I 343 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 2: wanted it. I wanted it to be a fact that 344 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,909 Speaker 2: she was, in fact, innocent. And really, I think a 345 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,070 Speaker 2: lot of that was because I hate to say it, 346 00:17:15,109 --> 00:17:17,410 Speaker 2: but I always forget Keane. I always say his name wrong. 347 00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:20,030 Speaker 2: I just love. Keenan Eileen and I don't want them 348 00:17:20,070 --> 00:17:23,490 Speaker 2: to be upset. That's what it goes to. Like you 349 00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:26,189 Speaker 2: fall in love with this couple and you're like, aw. 350 00:17:27,030 --> 00:17:29,070 Speaker 1: But I mean, I feel like half the audience is 351 00:17:29,310 --> 00:17:31,620 Speaker 1: probably going to feel the opposite of you. They want 352 00:17:31,630 --> 00:17:35,060 Speaker 1: to put away because she seems guilty. I mean, in 353 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,420 Speaker 1: the second trial out of a 12 person jury, seven 354 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:39,540 Speaker 1: of them wanted to convict her. 355 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: I know, but I know, but I even watching it, 356 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:45,580 Speaker 2: I mean, she, yes, she, she dug herself a hole. 357 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:46,740 Speaker 2: She absolutely did. 358 00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:49,590 Speaker 1: But she hadn't done it in the second trial she 359 00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:51,310 Speaker 1: had not dug herself a hole yet. Well, she wasn't 360 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:52,250 Speaker 1: representing herself. 361 00:17:52,369 --> 00:17:52,689 Speaker 6: Right. 362 00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: I mean, so she was– nobody ever got to the 363 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:59,860 Speaker 2: bottom of what she was thinking with that. I know that, 364 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: you know, Keenan and Eileen don't talk to her anymore. 365 00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: They won't pick up the phone. I think their children 366 00:18:04,660 --> 00:18:07,219 Speaker 2: probably said, you know, if you do lose our numbers. 367 00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:13,470 Speaker 2: But I'm wondering if anybody got any insight into what 368 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:17,100 Speaker 2: she was thinking. She knows her case better. I mean– 369 00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:20,140 Speaker 2: That's the only thing that would make me, that's almost 370 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:22,270 Speaker 2: one of the only, not one of the only, but 371 00:18:22,740 --> 00:18:25,669 Speaker 2: the fact that she's so crazy to do that, that 372 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:28,130 Speaker 2: doesn't help her case. Like you gotta be a certain 373 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:29,430 Speaker 2: amount of nut job to do that. 374 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:33,379 Speaker 4: 100%. And I think you hit it. 375 00:18:33,550 --> 00:18:36,550 Speaker 1: Like she felt that she was the person who knew 376 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:39,890 Speaker 1: her case best. Joe says it so well in the 377 00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:42,610 Speaker 1: third episode of just like, just, you know, knowing your 378 00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:46,660 Speaker 1: case and arguing it effectively in court are very different things. 379 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 4: So like Dana certainly knew. 380 00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:53,350 Speaker 1: The details, but she ended up utilizing the third trial 381 00:18:53,390 --> 00:18:55,170 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways to sort of settle scores 382 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,350 Speaker 1: with people that she had wanted to directly speak to 383 00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:02,730 Speaker 1: for 20 years. And it was, it became quite ugly 384 00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:05,230 Speaker 1: to watch real, real slow motion train wreck. 385 00:19:05,670 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: Did you guys feel like when, you know, the guilty 386 00:19:08,890 --> 00:19:12,780 Speaker 2: plea was read all three times, she was just like, Oh, 387 00:19:13,869 --> 00:19:17,010 Speaker 2: I didn't see any. She was like, all right, bye. 388 00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:19,770 Speaker 2: She was like waving to her family. Did you notice that? 389 00:19:19,790 --> 00:19:20,890 Speaker 2: Or was it just me? 390 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,740 Speaker 4: No, she's not one of, she's not a human of 391 00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 4: large emotions, at least, at least externally. 392 00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 393 00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:31,350 Speaker 4: Which makes her more than all the more fascinating, at 394 00:19:31,369 --> 00:19:31,830 Speaker 4: least to me. 395 00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:34,030 Speaker 2: I have to tell you that, you know, you did, 396 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:35,770 Speaker 2: you put a lot of focus as you should have 397 00:19:35,950 --> 00:19:40,330 Speaker 2: on her daughter, which I, That was so interesting because I, 398 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,419 Speaker 2: at the beginning, and you tell me if this was 399 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: something you were going for, I was like, maybe the 400 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,810 Speaker 2: daughter did it. I'm sorry for saying that out loud. 401 00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:49,050 Speaker 2: I hope the daughter never listens to this. Obviously you 402 00:19:49,070 --> 00:19:50,649 Speaker 2: didn't do it and you've been, through it. And I'm 403 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:54,889 Speaker 2: so sorry. But again, your fault. I was like, is 404 00:19:54,930 --> 00:19:55,710 Speaker 2: it the daughter? 405 00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:56,990 Speaker 3: What made you think that? 406 00:19:57,340 --> 00:19:59,500 Speaker 2: You tell me. You made me think it. I mean, 407 00:19:59,540 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: you went, you zoomed right in on her face. There 408 00:20:02,380 --> 00:20:04,900 Speaker 2: was a lot of her face. There was a lot. 409 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: And I didn't have... The sympathy for her, I certainly, 410 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,109 Speaker 2: in a big picture, this is a film, so if 411 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:20,149 Speaker 2: I stop and I say this to real people, of 412 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:23,930 Speaker 2: course I feel terrible for this person, but I don't know, 413 00:20:24,430 --> 00:20:26,300 Speaker 2: you didn't play her, she didn't play her, I don't know, 414 00:20:26,340 --> 00:20:27,780 Speaker 2: she didn't seem that sympathetic to me. 415 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: Was it because in the first 48 Hours episode, she 416 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: basically said her mother should receive the death penalty? 417 00:20:34,369 --> 00:20:35,590 Speaker 4: If she killed her father? 418 00:20:35,890 --> 00:20:38,170 Speaker 1: It's like, that's sort of the first thing you learn 419 00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: about Hayley is that. 420 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for reminding me. Yes. When, and yes, I 421 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: don't know. There was just, she seemed to have no 422 00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: real feeling. And I guess I don't feel like I 423 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,060 Speaker 2: had enough background in terms of what kind of a 424 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: mother she was. Maybe she was this, you know, total 425 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: monster as a mother when they were together. There's a 426 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,310 Speaker 2: reason she obviously didn't get custody. So maybe I was 427 00:21:02,350 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: missing something, but Was that part of it, you guys, 428 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: to sort of, I don't know, what was your focus 429 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: with her? 430 00:21:09,820 --> 00:21:10,020 Speaker 6: Yeah. 431 00:21:10,540 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, what? Start to what? 432 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: No, no, no, Matthew. 433 00:21:13,660 --> 00:21:14,740 Speaker 2: What are you hiding from me? 434 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 4: There's nothing. 435 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:19,100 Speaker 1: I'm hiding nothing. I will just say that we turned 436 00:21:19,140 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: over every possible rock. 437 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: You think she did it? 438 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: No. 439 00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,460 Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the process, let's just say 440 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,550 Speaker 1: all possibilities were on the table of who could possibly 441 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:32,190 Speaker 1: have done this if it wasn't Dana. 442 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,780 Speaker 2: You must be so impressed with yourselves because I'm picking 443 00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:37,140 Speaker 2: up everything you're laying down. 444 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 6: I am. 445 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,570 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're going to tell me not, 446 00:21:41,609 --> 00:21:43,310 Speaker 2: but what do you mean? You thought that there was 447 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:45,870 Speaker 2: a possibility that she was involved. You can't take it back. 448 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:48,050 Speaker 2: You just literally said we pulled out all the stops. 449 00:21:48,550 --> 00:21:49,010 Speaker 3: I didn't. 450 00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:51,350 Speaker 4: I don't think she was involved. I don't either. 451 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:55,930 Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the process of us making this, 452 00:21:56,630 --> 00:22:00,169 Speaker 1: we did have to look at every possibility. 453 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: I mean, but you're filmmakers, you're not detectives, you're not investigators. So, 454 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: so what do you mean? 455 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,290 Speaker 5: Well, we're not investigators, but it is our job to 456 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:11,790 Speaker 5: try to, you know, tell all sides. And I think, 457 00:22:12,609 --> 00:22:14,550 Speaker 5: you know, we talk, or Joe talks a lot about 458 00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:17,830 Speaker 5: the dangers of certainty. So going into it, you know, 459 00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:20,790 Speaker 5: we knew the story that other media had told, um, 460 00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:24,450 Speaker 5: the police, what they told. And I think, you know, 461 00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:27,030 Speaker 5: we needed to dig into what Keenan and Eileen were saying. 462 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 5: So we looked at everything, um, But yeah, I agree 463 00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:34,180 Speaker 5: with Matthew. I don't think she was involved. I think 464 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:39,650 Speaker 5: it's really difficult to watch kids, you know, point to 465 00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:41,970 Speaker 5: their mother as the one that killed their father, but 466 00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:43,270 Speaker 5: they truly believe that. 467 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:46,629 Speaker 2: When she said, that was, when she said, I still 468 00:22:46,690 --> 00:22:50,869 Speaker 2: love you, the way that she said it was so creepy. 469 00:22:51,310 --> 00:22:53,380 Speaker 2: And again, I don't think she did it. I don't think. 470 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: But it was this, almost this menacing, like manipulative. 471 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 4: You don't think she did it or you just wouldn't 472 00:23:00,260 --> 00:23:00,780 Speaker 4: convict her? 473 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,740 Speaker 2: I definitely wouldn't convict her. And I don't, I don't 474 00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:09,300 Speaker 2: think that she did it. I wouldn't be, it's not like, 475 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: you know, that's out of the realm of possibility for me. 476 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:14,889 Speaker 2: I think if you said she in fact did, I 477 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:23,109 Speaker 2: wouldn't be completely astounded, but there's just nothing. There's nothing. 478 00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:27,540 Speaker 2: There's no evidence except that she was wacky with her 479 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,419 Speaker 2: ex-husband and i have about 20 friends that i can 480 00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:34,659 Speaker 2: tell you are the same that have left nasty messages 481 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,340 Speaker 2: that have lost their minds after divorces i'm not saying 482 00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: that they're killers but they have you know they have 483 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,660 Speaker 2: done they've acted in wacky ways. 484 00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:48,270 Speaker 1: We talked about that a lot making this i mean 485 00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:51,510 Speaker 1: you're basically zooming in on the worst moments of somebody's 486 00:23:51,550 --> 00:23:54,060 Speaker 1: life like post you know, when you're, when you're going 487 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: through a divorce, it's like, we've all, I mean, I 488 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: have not gone through a divorce, but I know many 489 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,899 Speaker 1: people who have, and it's, it's ugly and it gets ugly. 490 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: And if you, if you pull that stuff out in 491 00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:07,050 Speaker 1: isolation and put it in a court, like it's just 492 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:09,730 Speaker 1: going to, it's going to read like you're an insane person. 493 00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:10,430 Speaker 3: Right. 494 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:15,890 Speaker 2: So, and now you add drinking to that newly divorced. 495 00:24:16,290 --> 00:24:20,290 Speaker 4: Angry, losing her, losing custody, custody. 496 00:24:20,430 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: She has your kids. You know, I don't know. I 497 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 2: don't have a lot of friends who've lost custody, but 498 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:27,859 Speaker 2: I do have a lot of divorced friends who have 499 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,900 Speaker 2: lost their minds and and started drinking more. And that 500 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:36,330 Speaker 2: doesn't help that none of them are capable of murder. 501 00:24:36,550 --> 00:24:38,850 Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Is that 502 00:24:39,650 --> 00:24:41,070 Speaker 2: is that, in fact, evidence? 503 00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:49,150 Speaker 1: If it wasn't for Dana's terrible storytelling around her alibi, terribly. 504 00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:52,109 Speaker 1: certainly in the third trial. And the fact that she 505 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:55,670 Speaker 1: has had two different alibis in the second trial, that 506 00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:58,899 Speaker 1: was really the, the linchpin for me where I was like, Oh, 507 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:01,980 Speaker 1: this is, this could be, this is a problem. And 508 00:25:02,020 --> 00:25:04,100 Speaker 1: this is like, okay, so if you knew where you 509 00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:07,500 Speaker 1: were and you weren't anywhere, you shouldn't have been, why 510 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,939 Speaker 1: couldn't you just communicate that very directly to a, to 511 00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:13,980 Speaker 1: a jury? And she couldn't do it. And she had 512 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: 20 years to figure out what to say to a jury. 513 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: And she, It's like, it's brutal to watch yourself disrupt 514 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: on the stand in the third trial. But like, it's, 515 00:25:23,030 --> 00:25:24,870 Speaker 1: you know, so if you, everything that we just talked 516 00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:28,650 Speaker 1: about as far as, you know, being an alcoholic, losing 517 00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:31,810 Speaker 1: custody of her children, having a history of stalking Mike, 518 00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:34,889 Speaker 1: that's all circumstantial. And then, but then when you add 519 00:25:34,930 --> 00:25:38,369 Speaker 1: to it, like I couldn't communicate the alibi cleanly. 520 00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:38,610 Speaker 3: Yeah. 521 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:41,210 Speaker 4: It becomes much more complicated. 522 00:25:41,530 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: And her phone was off. 523 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,220 Speaker 2: But she sat in a cell for years and years 524 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,859 Speaker 2: and years. And she still couldn't get it right. I 525 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,830 Speaker 2: don't know if that would mean that makes her more 526 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:57,070 Speaker 2: likely to be guilty or just stupid or crazy. I 527 00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:58,910 Speaker 2: don't really know. Like, cause the thing is, if you 528 00:25:58,990 --> 00:26:01,850 Speaker 2: did it, you would think you would hone in on 529 00:26:02,290 --> 00:26:04,970 Speaker 2: what you're going to say on those details, right? You're 530 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:08,140 Speaker 2: not going to screw that part up. If you are guilty, 531 00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: you're very, very, very careful. Maybe that implies some, I 532 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,699 Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, I'm just making this up. 533 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,060 Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? 534 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:18,179 Speaker 2: I do. 535 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,380 Speaker 1: And we, you know, there's like, we talked about, you know, 536 00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: could Dana have hired a hit man to kill Mike 537 00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:26,340 Speaker 1: and Karen? And like, then you start to turn that 538 00:26:26,540 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: idea over. And if she did actually do that, why 539 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: would she then turn her phone off and go into 540 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:35,810 Speaker 1: the mountains for two days? Like, why wouldn't you basically 541 00:26:35,890 --> 00:26:39,070 Speaker 1: like create a great alibi for yourself? Like I was home, look, 542 00:26:39,090 --> 00:26:41,790 Speaker 1: I have receipts from the pizza I ordered or whatever 543 00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:43,970 Speaker 1: it's going to be. You know, it's like, so there's 544 00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:48,630 Speaker 1: this hole in her, schedule over that weekend that is 545 00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:52,649 Speaker 1: just it will remain a giant question mark forever. 546 00:26:52,270 --> 00:26:56,100 Speaker 2: Don't say forever i can't live with forever it will 547 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: get solved so i. 548 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 4: Would say odds are at this point it will be 549 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,580 Speaker 4: forever but who knows. 550 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 5: Eileen believes there's still a miracle out there so you 551 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 5: know she believes. 552 00:27:05,619 --> 00:27:09,010 Speaker 2: She's a true believer not dana but eileen i mean 553 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 2: i can't Well, what does they say to all of that? 554 00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: Like when you say to them after the fact, you know, 555 00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 2: I know they were so upset. They thought that she 556 00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:33,580 Speaker 2: made this, what she did this huge mistake by representing herself. 557 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: But when she, when they saw her fumble, that didn't, 558 00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: they didn't have more questions after that. They didn't then say, 559 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,660 Speaker 2: you know what, maybe nothing changed for them. They just, 560 00:27:46,740 --> 00:27:49,420 Speaker 2: from the beginning, innocent period, full stop. 561 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: I think they'd be the first to admit that that 562 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,050 Speaker 1: was not Dana's best performance. But I think the thing 563 00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:59,470 Speaker 1: that knocked them even more sideways was when Dana decided 564 00:27:59,510 --> 00:28:02,810 Speaker 1: to represent herself. Because it was a very direct, it 565 00:28:02,830 --> 00:28:04,290 Speaker 1: was a bit of a fuck you to them. 566 00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:04,970 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. 567 00:28:05,030 --> 00:28:06,210 Speaker 4: All of the people that had. 568 00:28:06,109 --> 00:28:08,449 Speaker 1: Worked so hard and spent so much money and their 569 00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: resources and their time for decades to help Dana. And 570 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,780 Speaker 1: just to do that in a one five-minute meeting with 571 00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:18,220 Speaker 1: the judge, it was like all of that. 572 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 4: Work has been erased. That was a really hard thing 573 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 4: for them as well. 574 00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:23,810 Speaker 3: Still is. 575 00:28:23,850 --> 00:28:23,980 Speaker 2: Yeah. 576 00:28:24,510 --> 00:28:26,750 Speaker 5: Even if Eileen, or sorry, I was just going to say, 577 00:28:26,810 --> 00:28:30,530 Speaker 5: even if Eileen believed that, you know, she did lie 578 00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:33,970 Speaker 5: about her alibi, I think she's upset because there's a jump, 579 00:28:34,369 --> 00:28:35,790 Speaker 5: you know, and she even uses this term. 580 00:28:35,810 --> 00:28:37,470 Speaker 3: It's like liar, liar, murderer. 581 00:28:38,130 --> 00:28:41,220 Speaker 5: Just because she lied doesn't mean that she killed Mike 582 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:44,940 Speaker 5: and Karen. So I think even as problematic as that is, 583 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 5: she gets past it very quickly. 584 00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:47,340 Speaker 4: Yeah. 585 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I would suggest that she did get 586 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,500 Speaker 2: past it because she, I would not want to live 587 00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:55,380 Speaker 2: my life thinking I had devoted all of these years, 588 00:28:55,940 --> 00:28:58,780 Speaker 2: all of these resources to something that turned out to 589 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 2: be a big scam. 590 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: And you, you know, we have to give one thing 591 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: we haven't talked about with Keenan Eileen is like, they 592 00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: single-handedly brought that prosecutor down, which is really as a, 593 00:29:10,860 --> 00:29:15,420 Speaker 1: as sort of citizens. Um, it's, it's an extraordinary thing 594 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:19,030 Speaker 1: to have done. And like, Jackie's paddling would probably still be, 595 00:29:19,310 --> 00:29:22,230 Speaker 1: you know, uh, practicing law to this day if it 596 00:29:22,270 --> 00:29:25,270 Speaker 1: wasn't for Keenan Eileen. Cause like no one, no one 597 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:27,290 Speaker 1: was digging through that case except for the two of 598 00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:28,620 Speaker 1: them that we know of. 599 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:30,010 Speaker 2: Yeah. 600 00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 5: And what about the, um, Richard Bowley, who you see 601 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 5: on the stand a lot in the trials also retired. 602 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,340 Speaker 2: Also a liar. What's with the liars? And where is 603 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,500 Speaker 2: he now? I guess he has... No, there was... He's 604 00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:48,990 Speaker 2: not culpable. There's nothing. He's just living his life. Retired. 605 00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:50,950 Speaker 1: I don't know. 606 00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:54,650 Speaker 2: A woman went to jail based on these lies. Do 607 00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:55,030 Speaker 2: you guys. 608 00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:55,950 Speaker 4: Are you with me here? 609 00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:56,510 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 610 00:29:56,530 --> 00:29:57,150 Speaker 4: Yeah. 611 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:00,970 Speaker 2: You think that too? Like, I don't get it. 612 00:30:01,460 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 4: I wish I had a clean answer for you. 613 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:03,340 Speaker 1: I don't. 614 00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:05,580 Speaker 4: I mean, it's, it's a, it's a crazy thing to 615 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 4: have seen. 616 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: And then it's a, it's also a crazy thing to 617 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,850 Speaker 1: have watched the prosecutor in the second trial, put a 618 00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,210 Speaker 1: witness on the stand that was basically telling lies. 619 00:30:15,050 --> 00:30:17,990 Speaker 2: What the hell was that? That's the thing. Like that 620 00:30:18,170 --> 00:30:20,010 Speaker 2: is the Terry Anderson, right? 621 00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:21,550 Speaker 3: Correct. Right. 622 00:30:21,730 --> 00:30:25,590 Speaker 2: Okay. The whole thing is so bizarre. And so that's 623 00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:28,890 Speaker 2: why I said it's a watching this documentary and I 624 00:30:28,910 --> 00:30:31,170 Speaker 2: have to remind myself these are real people. And so 625 00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:32,970 Speaker 2: I do always have guilt about it, but I really 626 00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:36,620 Speaker 2: enjoyed it, you guys. Well done. Seriously. I mean, if 627 00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:39,700 Speaker 2: that's your point, if that's what you're trying to accomplish here, 628 00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:41,780 Speaker 2: you know, you're telling a true story. So I'm sure 629 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:45,140 Speaker 2: that I would think that would be the most important thing, right? 630 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,310 Speaker 2: To get the story right. But we're talking about a 631 00:30:48,420 --> 00:30:49,830 Speaker 2: bunch of crazy people. 632 00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:50,970 Speaker 4: I agree. 633 00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:54,330 Speaker 1: And there's, I mean, look, we didn't set out to say, hey, 634 00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:56,650 Speaker 1: we're going to make some sort of dark comedy about 635 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: all of these tragedies in a row, but we do 636 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,060 Speaker 1: have incredibly charismatic. 637 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:03,690 Speaker 4: Characters in this. 638 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 3: Yes, you do. 639 00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:07,250 Speaker 4: They're characters, they're also real people, Keane and Eileen and Joe. 640 00:31:07,550 --> 00:31:08,230 Speaker 6: Yes, right. 641 00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:12,210 Speaker 1: There obviously were crazy twists and turns that we never 642 00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:14,650 Speaker 1: could have foreseen when we started this production. So of 643 00:31:14,670 --> 00:31:19,590 Speaker 1: course we're going to track those, but ultimately, I personally 644 00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:23,130 Speaker 1: don't feel like it lands in comedic territory by the 645 00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:25,740 Speaker 1: end of episode three. I think that there is actually a, 646 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:30,290 Speaker 1: a tragedy at the center of this that I think 647 00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:32,510 Speaker 1: Joe quite eloquently communicates. 648 00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:38,010 Speaker 4: Um, you know, uh, he, for one thing, when. 649 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:43,740 Speaker 1: He's talking about, um, Dana cross-examining her own daughter and 650 00:31:43,780 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: he says, he just realized that this was a room 651 00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:49,380 Speaker 1: full of broken people and like that this case had 652 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,140 Speaker 1: just decimated numerous families that had been going on. This 653 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,430 Speaker 1: had been going on for 20 years. But, you know, 654 00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:58,350 Speaker 1: Josh and I had other things on our mind that 655 00:31:58,390 --> 00:32:01,490 Speaker 1: we wanted to explore with this series. Things like the 656 00:32:01,530 --> 00:32:06,220 Speaker 1: collision of criminal justice and entertainment. The idea of, you know, 657 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: that just because.... 658 00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:12,690 Speaker 4: You want a satisfying ending. 659 00:32:14,410 --> 00:32:17,030 Speaker 1: You know, if we're tracking a case, like that's not, 660 00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:18,910 Speaker 1: it might not be a satisfying ending for people. 661 00:32:19,330 --> 00:32:22,610 Speaker 4: That's real life. That has to be reflected in the show. 662 00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:27,310 Speaker 4: And there have been other true crime television episodes made 663 00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:30,610 Speaker 4: about this case that had a very specific, that had 664 00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:32,390 Speaker 4: a very specific ending, like 48 hours. 665 00:32:32,590 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: Right, right, right. They wrapped it up. 666 00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 4: So it's, yeah, the need for. 667 00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:43,370 Speaker 1: The need for certainty for all of the people within 668 00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:46,770 Speaker 1: this story, and also as a viewer of true crime, 669 00:32:46,790 --> 00:32:49,630 Speaker 1: the need to feel like you have a tidy ending 670 00:32:49,810 --> 00:32:50,350 Speaker 1: to wrap up. 671 00:32:50,370 --> 00:32:51,670 Speaker 4: This was not that. 672 00:32:52,850 --> 00:32:55,370 Speaker 1: And we sort of knew it at the time. We 673 00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: knew that this was a case that had no physical evidence. 674 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: There's probably never going to be real certainty of who 675 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: actually did this. 676 00:33:02,260 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 4: And so we. 677 00:33:04,060 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: Kind of knew that this was going to be an 678 00:33:05,580 --> 00:33:09,370 Speaker 1: ending that maybe some of the audience would find unsatisfying. 679 00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:12,970 Speaker 4: We find it, I find it deeply satisfying and it's uncertainty. 680 00:33:12,990 --> 00:33:16,330 Speaker 2: I'm happy for you. I do not. That's great. 681 00:33:16,390 --> 00:33:16,970 Speaker 4: I'm thrilled. 682 00:33:16,990 --> 00:33:19,470 Speaker 2: I'm thrilled that you're going to bed happy and sad. No, 683 00:33:19,550 --> 00:33:22,350 Speaker 2: it's going to keep me up for weeks now, but 684 00:33:22,670 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: nothing we can do about it. Listen, you guys, you 685 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,140 Speaker 2: have to tell the truth. It is what it is. 686 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,580 Speaker 2: The Terry Anderson of it all, that was just, I 687 00:33:29,620 --> 00:33:32,770 Speaker 2: feel like you guys stepped in a golden pile of 688 00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:37,670 Speaker 2: shit like one wacko after the next wacko what like 689 00:33:37,690 --> 00:33:39,310 Speaker 2: she's lying then you went to her house do you 690 00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:40,130 Speaker 2: feel bad about. 691 00:33:39,970 --> 00:33:43,910 Speaker 6: It yeah i feel bad about it okay like what 692 00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 6: do you it was just unbelievable the characters were crazy 693 00:33:48,740 --> 00:33:51,860 Speaker 6: well done i am pissed but i would watch it 694 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,100 Speaker 6: and probably will watch it again and maybe again and 695 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 6: i will tell all my friends to watch it so 696 00:33:56,980 --> 00:33:59,330 Speaker 6: thank you There's something to be said for that. Yeah. 697 00:33:59,550 --> 00:34:02,610 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it, you guys. Good job. Thank you 698 00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:04,370 Speaker 2: so much for coming on. Please come back because I 699 00:34:04,390 --> 00:34:05,990 Speaker 2: know you have other stuff going on. 700 00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:06,850 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. 701 00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:08,830 Speaker 2: Don't forget about me. Okay. 702 00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:09,250 Speaker 1: All right. 703 00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:10,250 Speaker 4: Thank you so much.