Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories.
Speaker 4: Done Done, Hi, and welcome to That's Messed Up and
Speaker 4: SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara Klank.
Speaker 2: And I'm Lisa Trigger, coming at you fast and slow
Speaker 2: on an end loose. We're an SVU podcast, a crime podcast,
Speaker 2: a celebrity interview podcast. Are really multifaceted girls living in
Speaker 2: a multifaceted world. Brat summer, Kamala Harris running for president.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the Home of the Air, Hope in
Speaker 1: the air. So that's that's how I feel. It's the summer.
Speaker 1: Lisa and I are way into the time machine because
Speaker 1: you know, we take a little break in August, so
Speaker 1: this is like coming out not necessarily on time. So
Speaker 1: if something catastrophic happens in the next couple of weeks
Speaker 1: that we haven't touched.
Speaker 3: On, we're a little bit in the time machine.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to say, I don't know how much
Speaker 1: you believe in this, But I haven't talked to my
Speaker 1: friend Aaron. She's a bit of a political pundit, she's
Speaker 1: in the crooked media universe. She has been following a
Speaker 1: lot of psychics on Reddit, like what they're saying, and
Speaker 1: a lot of psychics apparently are saying stuff like before
Speaker 1: Biden dropped out, a lot of them were saying, we
Speaker 1: don't see the election happening, like we just can't see it.
Speaker 1: We like don't see it happening. And then they were
Speaker 1: saying a lot of them were saying, I don't see
Speaker 1: either of them winning, which is like a good omen
Speaker 1: if you believe in that stuff, that maybe it's Kamala, right,
Speaker 1: because Biden's not gonna win, It's gonna be Kamala. So
Speaker 1: then a lot of them are saying, and she's been
Speaker 1: sending me screenshots because I'm happy to entertain this as
Speaker 1: like a fun convo piece, but not something that we
Speaker 1: should actually base anything on realistically, that a lot of
Speaker 1: them are seeing that one of the candidates is going
Speaker 1: to have a health event that would make them essentially
Speaker 1: not even able to be like running in the end,
Speaker 1: like they'll be on the ballot or whatever, but they
Speaker 1: won't like And so.
Speaker 2: I was like, ooh, what does that mean? Yeah, I'm excited,
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I just got giddy on the inside.
Speaker 2: It's never good when you're just like hoping someone to die.
Speaker 3: But I mean, I don't know if it's like a
Speaker 3: death or like a.
Speaker 2: Heart attack or like a Tenacious D moment, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: we have to stay in line. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well but yeah, So that's what the psychics are buzzing
Speaker 1: about on Reddit. So if people are into that, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to let you know that's what they're talking about.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm getting from my friend. She's also like
Speaker 1: on materni leave, so I think she's deep down into.
Speaker 3: Uh she had another kid.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, so she's she's deep down into some
Speaker 1: Reddit holes. But yeah, do you want to tell about
Speaker 1: the lift driver or something that you were gonna say?
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I had a really long live Listen.
Speaker 2: I'm a working actress, guys, that's just the reality of
Speaker 2: my life. I didn't and so I've been doing like
Speaker 2: night shoots, which I've never done, which is exciting. But
Speaker 2: I didn't get back to my hotel till like six
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning or seven, and then I was like, great,
Speaker 2: I'll charge my phone, I'll smoke some weed, I'll back
Speaker 2: and then I'll get the car back into the city
Speaker 2: and it's a two hour drive and he was just
Speaker 2: so annoying and it's like read the room. But then
Speaker 2: I was like, whatever, I'm grateful that even took this ride,
Speaker 2: you know, back all the way back. So I'm like, right,
Speaker 2: and if he really is this desperate to chat, I
Speaker 2: gotta at least give him something.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't engaged at he just was so annoying
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, what was hell?
Speaker 2: So he was just telling stories about things and like,
Speaker 2: oh that this bridge is made out of this steel
Speaker 2: and these motor and I would go nice and I
Speaker 2: would tell a story and I'd go that's good.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 2: I glad that worked out. Like I wasn't ignoring. I
Speaker 2: had my headphones in. It's like, dude, play your classic
Speaker 2: rock and drive. But then I'm like, I am asking
Speaker 2: this person to drive two hours like but it was
Speaker 2: just like, shut the fuck up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I hear you.
Speaker 2: It's Saturday morning at seven am. Like, what isn't there
Speaker 2: like a no talking function that you can flip on that.
Speaker 3: I thought there's like a thing that's like.
Speaker 1: It on the I would love no, I know, but
Speaker 1: like in middle future, I think there's like a thing
Speaker 1: that's like you prefer silence or something like that. I
Speaker 1: don't even know if I have it checked for myself,
Speaker 1: but it is what I.
Speaker 2: I'm also not trying to get murdered, you know, so
Speaker 2: you're not going to be a bitch either.
Speaker 1: And we have also famously, you and i'd been in
Speaker 1: the car with a guy who was falling asleep at
Speaker 1: the wheels. So maybe that's how this guy doesn't but
Speaker 1: the wheels since it's like seven in the morning or
Speaker 1: six in the morning.
Speaker 3: Maybe, like I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was just like, yeah, I used to I
Speaker 1: did a drive once to atlant Like he wanted to
Speaker 1: tell me about like he was talking about the city,
Speaker 1: like yeah, you know on this street, in this street,
Speaker 1: this pizza place, I've been there.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, I don't know what you want.
Speaker 1: Like some people drive for apps because they have to
Speaker 1: work alone.
Speaker 3: Now yeah, and he goes, yeah, I used to drive.
Speaker 2: And then they started wanting me to, you know, move
Speaker 2: kilos of coke and it's not worth it, and I go,
Speaker 2: it's not, it's really not.
Speaker 3: You got me what? Okay, Now we're getting interesting. Who
Speaker 3: wanted him to move kilos of.
Speaker 2: Coke a car service that he worked for, and he
Speaker 2: told me about his private clients, and it's just like,
Speaker 2: I don't believe you're in the mob. He seemed like
Speaker 2: someone with the scarface poster that wanted me this is it.
Speaker 2: He wanted me to believe that he was just like
Speaker 2: a hot shot in the driving business and like no
Speaker 2: is a made man or something like that. I was
Speaker 2: just like, sir, I just can't deal with this. I
Speaker 2: just my eyes are shutting. I'm struggling for my life.
Speaker 2: Like but you know, I was as kind as I
Speaker 2: could be. I offered to buy him stuff because I
Speaker 2: got anti EN's pretzels.
Speaker 5: Nice.
Speaker 3: Well that's good. That's a nice thing that you did.
Speaker 5: The offer.
Speaker 2: Not ignot oh, I did offer, he said no. I
Speaker 2: was like, I will buy you a mountain dew if
Speaker 2: you want, or like whatever you need. The thing is
Speaker 2: everyone's mad at jd Vance about the mountain diet mountain dew,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's I do love diet mountain dew.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it was just a dorky joke. Like it
Speaker 1: wasn't like I didn't even get the joke. I didn't
Speaker 1: even get that. No, exactly, it's so bad. And then
Speaker 1: he stops and like waits for laughter. It's like very
Speaker 1: it's giving Jeb Bush like it's very bad, Like he
Speaker 1: is not good, he is not helping them.
Speaker 2: He's not that's really great and he is a fool
Speaker 2: and he's not that poor, Like shut up.
Speaker 3: It's just like I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just hate if kat ladies were miserable, let them
Speaker 2: be miserable. If the life of a if the life
Speaker 2: you want to force women to do was the better choice,
Speaker 2: Like why wouldn't they be doing like you wouldn't have
Speaker 2: to force us to do it if it was awesome.
Speaker 1: I don't really get how a childisscat lady is affecting
Speaker 1: his fucking life at all.
Speaker 2: But you know what I don't well, because you know
Speaker 2: these types of men. It's like women should do these
Speaker 2: things and stay in these boxes and like this is
Speaker 2: what a woman is and you need to do that
Speaker 2: r It's like, why would you want women to do
Speaker 2: fun stuff if like you can trick them into making
Speaker 2: you bread.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: But then it's also like he's married to this to
Speaker 1: a woman and a woman of color, and I'm like.
Speaker 3: What how is that working?
Speaker 6: Out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean Candice, you know there is a
Speaker 2: high population of Southeast Asians that are you know, Trumpers.
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean vivak Ramaswami. I think is now in
Speaker 1: his camp for sure, because I remember the women's march.
Speaker 2: There was like an Indian family and the kids that
Speaker 2: looked kind of pissed, but they were all in Maga hats,
Speaker 2: and like the dad was confused that we were there,
Speaker 2: because I think that's what happened. Like a lot of
Speaker 2: Trumpers did come from the inauguration and then a bunch
Speaker 2: of dumb bitches came in to.
Speaker 1: Town and in their pink hat. Yeah, I ruined there,
Speaker 1: ruined their day.
Speaker 2: But there was a meme with his wife where it
Speaker 2: was her face and then the face of what's her
Speaker 2: name of Anstravobowski, Oh yes, yes, and had main and
Speaker 2: ends being like when you realize that all the hate
Speaker 2: is meant for you too, Like I just don't know
Speaker 2: how you stand there and go women shouldn't be in
Speaker 2: the workforce and then your wife's just behind.
Speaker 3: I just don't get it. I'm it's hard for me
Speaker 3: to understand.
Speaker 1: I understand we're all tricks by the patriarchy, and you know,
Speaker 1: fooled by society and we're all susceptible to it. But
Speaker 1: it's also confusing, like yes, why do.
Speaker 2: You want this? Why do you want this? And it's like,
Speaker 2: we're fine for people to stay at home. You just
Speaker 2: want to be respected.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1: Look, I put my children to work. Rosie did a
Speaker 1: lemonade stand this past weekend. I fucking saw that. Was
Speaker 1: it a success? Woman in the workforce? Woman in the workforce. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she wanted to do a lemonade stand. She's been asking
Speaker 1: for weeks. We set a date, we got the stuff.
Speaker 1: We didn't make lemonade, sorry, we bought it. We brought
Speaker 1: out a cute little picture with ice and I put
Speaker 1: lemon slices in it. So I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was false advertising. But a lot of my friends said
Speaker 1: that they did that as well, so I didn't feel
Speaker 1: that bad. You can tell by tasting it. We did
Speaker 1: not make it. You know that is some But are
Speaker 1: you is it like powder or no? No, it's like
Speaker 1: boughta lemonade like I bought like you know, whatever the
Speaker 1: kind is, you buy it like a bout like, I
Speaker 1: just bought that at the super market and then we
Speaker 1: made like forty dollars and she's gonna donate it to
Speaker 1: a pet charity actually, because she's, you know, an aspiring,
Speaker 1: childless catwoman and she wants to give it to animals,
Speaker 1: she said. So it was fun and she had a
Speaker 1: great time at the beginning, like when there was like
Speaker 1: a bunch of customers, and she loved taking the money
Speaker 1: and she learned how to pour the picture without spilling
Speaker 1: it and she was really into it. But the minute
Speaker 1: there wasn't a customer, she was like, oh, this is boring,
Speaker 1: and she would just go play at the playground because
Speaker 1: we did it at a playground because I didn't we
Speaker 1: weren't going to get enough foot traffic at our house.
Speaker 3: So it was cute.
Speaker 1: Though it was cute, but at the end, like tip yesterday,
Speaker 1: not even I was putting on our PJ. She goes
Speaker 1: the lemonade nade stand was just kind fun. I just
Speaker 1: didn't like it when there were no customers and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I mean, babe's that's that she would
Speaker 1: just like. Her way of advertising was so funny. People
Speaker 1: would come in and she go, you want lemonade? Like
Speaker 1: not just like, hey, we have lemonade, ice cool lemonade.
Speaker 1: She was just like pointedly asking people, Hey, you sir,
Speaker 1: make eye contact with me, you want lemonade. But it
Speaker 1: was fun. It was fun, fun, little fun, little activity.
Speaker 1: We did it in the morning before it got to
Speaker 1: scorching hot. But then, oh my gosh. Today I went
Speaker 1: to the dermatologist for my annual By the way, everybody
Speaker 1: get your moles checked. And she was, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I love to get a tan. I love to be tan,
Speaker 1: and I know it's not good for me, but I
Speaker 1: do wear sunscreen.
Speaker 3: I try to.
Speaker 1: She's lying, thank god you did a correction. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: try to wear sunscreen. I'm trying to. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: always wear it on my face now for sure, body, I'm.
Speaker 3: Sometimes a little bit more lax.
Speaker 1: But I also try to go to the pool like
Speaker 1: late in the day as well, when the sun is
Speaker 1: a little bit weaker. But she was like, oh, you're pretty,
Speaker 1: tann and like the dermatologist is the place where your
Speaker 1: pretty tan is like not a compliment, like she's mad
Speaker 1: at you, you know, She's like, oh, you're looking tan.
Speaker 1: I go, yeah, I'm like, but I'm wearing one pieces.
Speaker 1: She's like, no, I can tell. It's like your chest
Speaker 1: in your back. Like I was like, okay, She's like,
Speaker 1: you're two different colors. I was like, all right, all right,
Speaker 1: got it, got it, got it. So I have to
Speaker 1: fucking get my shit together. She's get me mad at me.
Speaker 1: And now I'm seeing her always in the summer, and
Speaker 1: it's like I got to move my appointments to like
Speaker 1: the winter or something.
Speaker 3: I don't get in trouble anymore.
Speaker 2: I keep thinking I'm san and then I look at
Speaker 2: my legs and they are white.
Speaker 1: It's not for everybody, But what else is happening. It's
Speaker 1: the getting to be the end of summer. This is
Speaker 1: coming out. Summer's gonna be coming to a close.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, our nice intras are going to be
Speaker 2: so jam packed.
Speaker 1: I know it flies by well. I also, okay, I
Speaker 1: kind of have a confession to make. Uh oh, I
Speaker 1: made all these bracelets in a day. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: Like how many times I think it's time to start
Speaker 1: antsy store. I don't know what to say. What are
Speaker 1: you going to do with all of Well, you just
Speaker 1: give them out and stuff, right, I give about this.
Speaker 1: This I'm going to give to people.
Speaker 2: But like you know, when you start with a good
Speaker 2: idea and you're like, everyone's gonna love this, and then you're like,
Speaker 2: is this humiliating?
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. I'm like, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: going to give.
Speaker 2: Everyone some bracelets, and then I'm like, god, I have
Speaker 2: an issue. And then someone requested some. You know, it's
Speaker 2: some are some Taylor Swift ideas I had. Some are different,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's do you think that there's like twenty here?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess it's not that bach, but it kind of
Speaker 1: looks more than more like thirty. I mean, that looks
Speaker 1: like a lot.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm just I can't tell them seeing shadows or the
Speaker 1: actual bracelet, but there's a lot that's amazing. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're like getting your working your hands while
Speaker 1: you're watching like OC and stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I am working, I mean, and it's
Speaker 2: mostly procrastinating, but it is this fun creative outlet and
Speaker 2: they do like searching for the letters and making the
Speaker 2: patterns with the colors, like and you're not scrolling when
Speaker 2: you're doing it, right, No, my my phone time has
Speaker 2: been better.
Speaker 1: It's sit ye and I'm not saying that about you.
Speaker 1: Like that's me too. Like anything I'm doing that's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm doing something with my hands. It's like I'm not
Speaker 1: just scrolling while I'm watching TV or something. It's good.
Speaker 3: That's a I'm all for that.
Speaker 1: We know as people who have been given bracelets by
Speaker 1: a lot of you are beautiful listeners at our live
Speaker 1: shows that the ones that are like the funniest and
Speaker 1: like the most sort of esoteric are the best, right, Like,
Speaker 1: so I feel like you probably have some good ones
Speaker 1: or obscure but perfect like yeah, I like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: like we love Little Clever, we love Stablers Done, and
Speaker 1: we love Mommy's Juice.
Speaker 3: You know, we love like the ones.
Speaker 1: That's like, you have to have seen this one episode
Speaker 1: to even get what we're talking about, you know. I
Speaker 1: like that, And I think that's goes along with you
Speaker 1: have to know this on Taylor Easter Egg or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know. I'm cause playing as somebody who knows what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. When it comes to Taylor, I couldn't
Speaker 1: even come close. But speaking of you know, friendship bracelets
Speaker 1: and live shows, guys, we are going to be on
Speaker 1: tour in October a little spooky season tour from your
Speaker 1: Girls that that's messed up. We're gonna be on a
Speaker 1: lot of sort of West side of the country cities
Speaker 1: La San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Denver, Phoenix. Come see
Speaker 1: us tickets links or at that's messed up live dot
Speaker 1: com as well as, uh, you know, get our merch there,
Speaker 1: see Liza's tour dates, get our promo codes. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of information all in that one place, so go
Speaker 1: check that out. And uh yeah, let's get started.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, someone just tagged us in a post
Speaker 2: and it's Lizzie Borden's house Lego Bill.
Speaker 3: I just saw that. I just all right, let's get started.
Speaker 1: We've got a great episode for you today.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to be doing the episode low Down today.
Speaker 2: So about the down Low. So they really did something
Speaker 2: there with the title. They really switched it up. And
Speaker 2: this is season five, episode twenty, and we're at a
Speaker 2: sex worker hot spot. They're all dressed provocatively and they're
Speaker 2: looking for some work. One dude drives by a woman
Speaker 2: in pleather and then so she calls him a scumbucket,
Speaker 2: which I gotta remember to call I do call a
Speaker 2: lot of the housewives scum, but scum bucket is funnier.
Speaker 3: It's funnier. You're a bucket filled with scum.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the vice cops break it all up and
Speaker 2: they call someone a dude who's clearly presenting as a
Speaker 2: very feminine woman, and she walks away, and you know,
Speaker 2: they're having little sassy chats back and forth, and she
Speaker 2: finally sells, well, if you want some of this sass,
Speaker 2: you know where to find me, and the cop goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: the big girls section at Macy's.
Speaker 1: That's funny, you know. I know we're a cab, but
Speaker 1: that's funny. Meanwhile, though, meanwhile, this girl is skinnier, like
Speaker 1: way thinner than I mean, she's a very thin person.
Speaker 3: I think it's the shoulder.
Speaker 2: I think it's the muscles and maybe you know, I
Speaker 2: think this person is like six ' four, like I
Speaker 2: think that's where.
Speaker 3: Girl y yea yi.
Speaker 2: And so they walk towards a car and they're like,
Speaker 2: zip it up to a man, sir, come on, let's go,
Speaker 2: and then they go, how are you even going to
Speaker 2: tell your wife about this one?
Speaker 3: They assume so much.
Speaker 2: But anyways, they put flashlights forward we see the man
Speaker 2: is dead, there's a red cloth around his neck, eyes
Speaker 2: wide open, and so they do a really nineteen twenties
Speaker 2: joke like he won't be telling his wife nothing you know,
Speaker 2: or or I did that.
Speaker 1: I don't remember, so Stabler, it's very uh, you know,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties gangsters.
Speaker 2: Stabler's in a baseball cap and he goes, good morning
Speaker 2: sunshine to a short hair, thick banged Benson while it's
Speaker 2: very much still dark out, take your hat off your
Speaker 2: balt so uh, basically, this sky is white male thirties
Speaker 2: and then hands Olivia the red thing that was around
Speaker 2: his neck. There's no sign struggle. Stabler's confuse, like I've
Speaker 2: never seen a hooker use hotpants to strangle a john before.
Speaker 2: And then the fashion expert of the sixteenth Precinct says, oh,
Speaker 2: these are not hotpants, these are leggings.
Speaker 3: You wear them to the gym. Okay a clue.
Speaker 2: So the Stabler goes, oh, wow, a hooker who works out,
Speaker 2: and it's like, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Is that so crazy to believe? Stabler?
Speaker 2: They don't have to be in shape, like I don't
Speaker 2: I don't get it. Or maybe he assumes they're all homeless,
Speaker 2: like I don't know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's either way, it's not good not a
Speaker 1: good look stick.
Speaker 2: Well, it's just kind of in the episode Pixies when
Speaker 2: they're like this young girl, she must be a street walker,
Speaker 2: and it's like she's clearly a young athletic girl, like.
Speaker 3: They just jump.
Speaker 2: They just don't They just don't understand the complexities of women.
Speaker 2: We are not one dimensional. So they look inside and
Speaker 2: there's a condom. There's come inside the condom, so that's exciting.
Speaker 2: Seemen number one clue and then there's lipstick on the
Speaker 2: outside of the condom. The wallet and credit cards are missing,
Speaker 2: but the cars registered to Jeffrey Yorke with a West
Speaker 2: Side address. And then something clicks for Benson and she goes,
Speaker 2: oh my god. So she rushes towards the gurney and
Speaker 2: they unzip and she goes, fuck, he's an assistant DA
Speaker 2: in the Bronx.
Speaker 3: I dated him.
Speaker 1: She sighs.
Speaker 2: We're at the credits, and we're back from the credits,
Speaker 2: and Benson brings Craigan a coffee. Okay, sexism, No, I
Speaker 2: don't know, she's just thoughtful. I don't think he asked
Speaker 2: for it. And then Stabler has his hat turned backwards
Speaker 2: right now, so he's in his let's get serious era.
Speaker 2: And why is Craigan so tired? I don't know why
Speaker 2: I asked that.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like it's okay to be tired.
Speaker 2: But he says that he had to actually call the
Speaker 2: Bronx at two am to tell him about the DA death,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's like, hey, your DA is in
Speaker 2: a known sex worker hot spot, Stroll, and their office says, well,
Speaker 2: hopefully you guys aren't jumping to conclusions, and Creigan goes,
Speaker 2: are right, guys, and Stabler goes, sure, the guy just
Speaker 2: like hanging out with strippers in his spare time, and
Speaker 2: Benson's like, no, hooker's stab or cut.
Speaker 3: They do not strangle.
Speaker 2: But Stabler's like, well, they could be on crack and
Speaker 2: Benson's so they could be on crack but not work out.
Speaker 2: And Benson's like that's bullshit. How many women do you
Speaker 2: know with that kind of upper body strength to choke
Speaker 2: a guy. So Craigan suggests maybe a transworker and Benson's like,
Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, that wasn't his type. And he
Speaker 2: also was not the type to look for street sex.
Speaker 2: Like something is off here and she walks off in
Speaker 2: a huff, and she's taking this as like a personal
Speaker 2: attack on her. Sabler's like everyone has secrets, you know that.
Speaker 2: So what's he doing down there? If it wasn't for sex?
Speaker 2: How about that? So then Finn walks in right in
Speaker 2: the nick of time. Hey, sometimes things are just like
Speaker 2: the way they are, and he has two pieces of
Speaker 2: paper and you know he's reporting. And there's prints from
Speaker 2: the past her door handle and also the dead guy's
Speaker 2: belt buckle.
Speaker 3: Same prince.
Speaker 2: It's a man Kevin Brown aka Keisha Brown, and she's
Speaker 2: a known transsex worker who we met earlier in the episode,
Speaker 2: who you know, might or might not shop at Macy's.
Speaker 3: So we got to go talk to her.
Speaker 2: And then Craigan sends munchin Finn to go through jeff
Speaker 2: Yorke's last three years of cases as a bronx DA.
Speaker 2: So Benson looks shocked, like, WHOA.
Speaker 3: Was I wrong?
Speaker 1: Fuck?
Speaker 2: So we're we're with Keisha Brown and she goes, Nope,
Speaker 2: not me. I didn't kick him. I didn't kick him.
Speaker 2: She didn't kick him or kill him. She didn't kill him.
Speaker 2: So she says she did touch the car though he
Speaker 2: was already dead. She did want to rob him, but
Speaker 2: the wallet was already gone. She only took a gym back,
Speaker 2: but there were closes in it, not her style. She
Speaker 2: threw the bag under an underpass, and so they bully
Speaker 2: her a little bit back and forth.
Speaker 3: She doesn't want to get you charged with murder.
Speaker 2: She knows how these dirty cops play, but she finally
Speaker 2: does confess about the bag. So we have a young
Speaker 2: baby o'haleran, and he's digging in a dumpster and that's
Speaker 2: pretty funny. And Stabler gets dirt on Jeff from Benson.
Speaker 2: You know, they're chatting while he's digging, so he doesn't
Speaker 2: remember her mentioning him, and she goes, yeah, it was
Speaker 2: five years ago. We worked a case together. We dated
Speaker 2: only a month. Nice guy, but no chemistry. So then
Speaker 2: we hear o'haleran success. He finds the bag in the trash.
Speaker 2: So it's a red licra top and some sneakers which
Speaker 2: go with the leggings that were found around his neck.
Speaker 2: And there is a business card and it's for Tina Gardner,
Speaker 2: an investigator for the bronx DA. So Stabler guests is ooh,
Speaker 2: office romance gone wrong and Benson's like, why would you
Speaker 2: know you leave this in the car? Then, so we're
Speaker 2: gonna call her up, see what's up. They meet it
Speaker 2: Perks Cafe. Perks Cafe sounds like a place where I
Speaker 2: would get some over easy eggs. Honestly, they play. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like such a nightmare. I did get an asa
Speaker 2: e bowl for breakfast. I'm looking at it. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: have it, but now I want an egg and cheese,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's like I don't want
Speaker 2: I got it. I'll have it. I'm sure once I
Speaker 2: bite into it, I'll be happy.
Speaker 3: To have it.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've had a I don't think I've
Speaker 2: had a produce outside of a lettuce burger topping in
Speaker 2: weeks in weeks. So it is good, but man in
Speaker 2: my like, fuck, well, you're just getting hungrier and hungrier,
Speaker 2: and like when you get hungrier, you just want the
Speaker 2: most delicious, you know thing you can get, you know.
Speaker 2: But I was adamant. I was like, I'll get an
Speaker 2: off Sai bowl. Okay. So this woman at Perks Cafe,
Speaker 2: Tina Gardner and investigator. She and Jeff played handball two
Speaker 2: nights a week and if this was made today. I'm
Speaker 2: sure they'd be playing pickleball. But Jeff Grove, she forgot
Speaker 2: her bag in his car on Monday. She's like, we
Speaker 2: are not dating, we are friends, and she's really sad
Speaker 2: that he is dead, and she seems sad. She did
Speaker 2: see him last night around six, leaving the office and
Speaker 2: he said he was gonna go home. She goes paying
Speaker 2: for sex, like, I don't know, that's not Jeff at all,
Speaker 2: but she does accurately describe the contents of the bag.
Speaker 3: They know it's her.
Speaker 2: Then Benson asks about her lipstick habits, and she says,
Speaker 2: Melanie Rose, Blush Rose, Why maybe I missed up. There's
Speaker 2: too many Roses. They probably got something wrong. She goes,
Speaker 2: why do you even want to know. I know who
Speaker 2: it is. It's Alvarez. The guy was convicted last week
Speaker 2: of murder and he got the max and threatened him
Speaker 2: in open court. Jeff shrugged it off, but she suggests
Speaker 2: they talked to the other ADA on the case, Andy Abbott.
Speaker 2: And we're in a very choreographed, high octane walk and
Speaker 2: talk and this office loves plants or maybe one girl
Speaker 2: in this cubicle, but the greenery is piled high on
Speaker 2: this woman's desk and he's like, yep, they wanted a
Speaker 2: deal and Jeff said no, and Stabler's like, well, why
Speaker 2: do you think Jeff should have made the deal, And
Speaker 2: he goes, no, someone threatened me and wanted to murder me.
Speaker 2: I'd make sure they were in jail forever and not
Speaker 2: be free. Hello, and I'm with him, and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: who is even Alvarez?
Speaker 3: He goes listen a small time dealer.
Speaker 2: In Mott Haven, but he wants to make it big time.
Speaker 2: So he racked up three bodies and he got off
Speaker 2: on the first two and he strangled them. The first
Speaker 2: he got off with jury tampering, in the second, they're
Speaker 2: a chief witness recanted, and third time.
Speaker 1: Finally he got it done.
Speaker 2: But Andy's wife is so worried and wanted protection for
Speaker 2: him and for him to stay away. But he goes,
Speaker 2: look at this tape, and we look at the tape
Speaker 2: and the new the News did an interview and Jeff's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm used to being threatened. We can't walk away from
Speaker 2: every case where there's revenge, Like I don't give a fuck,
Speaker 2: I'm here, and Andy goes, yeah, he loved his job,
Speaker 2: his ethics were almost biblical, and she said, it seems
Speaker 2: like you were more worried than he was. And now
Speaker 2: we had got another walk and talk back from his office,
Speaker 2: you know, through the cubes. He says that he told
Speaker 2: Jeff to carry a gun, and Jeff laughed and said,
Speaker 2: you know, he didn't want to shoot himself on accident.
Speaker 2: So Andy's like, listen, go talk to Alvi and when
Speaker 2: you do, tell him, I said, hello, so Alvarez at
Speaker 2: this jail. He takes credit for putting the hit out
Speaker 2: on Jeff, and the lawyer's like, lol, he's just having
Speaker 2: some fun. And Benson goes, if you want to have fun,
Speaker 2: go to Coney Island and ride the cyclone.
Speaker 3: Under used quote of hers.
Speaker 2: You know we always talk about the the you know,
Speaker 2: the pickle and the Captain, but I like this one.
Speaker 2: She says, I don't find dead prosecutors all that amusing.
Speaker 2: And she gets in his face and he goes, easy, mommy,
Speaker 2: it was a joke. The lawyer butts in and he's like, listen,
Speaker 2: this guy's looking at twenty five hard. He's angry, but
Speaker 2: not angry enough to kill a da And Benson's unhinged
Speaker 2: and she's like oh yeah, really, and then she accuses
Speaker 2: the lawyer of the hit, and you know, the man
Speaker 2: is giving me soft I'm sorry. I don't think this man,
Speaker 2: but he did get indicted for the jury tampering and
Speaker 2: not to mention, an eyewitness suddenly has amnesia. Come on,
Speaker 2: he does look scummy, but not murder. I don't believe it.
Speaker 2: So too big a risk for this guy doesn't want prison.
Speaker 2: He knows what prison's about, and he's not willing to
Speaker 2: risk him is the energy I get from him? But
Speaker 2: also like he pays dominate Trick says, So he tells
Speaker 2: Stabler to tell his partner to relax.
Speaker 3: Not good.
Speaker 2: So the lawyer says, here's my office number, my cell
Speaker 2: numb my ohone number, you know, here's everything.
Speaker 3: Here's the log of all my calls.
Speaker 2: I got no games here and Alvarez says he's had
Speaker 2: no visitors but the lawyer so, you know, but earlier
Speaker 2: he did take credit for it, and he goes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, like, no, no, cap I don't know.
Speaker 2: I actually two boys walking on my street and one
Speaker 2: of them said, no, cap I like, I've never seen it.
Speaker 3: I've never heard it out in the world.
Speaker 1: In the wild.
Speaker 3: Are you googling what it means?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I sell you, God, I tell you it means the truth.
Speaker 3: Like no lies, right, no, lie, no lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all back at the office. No one has anything,
Speaker 2: and you know they ran all the pieces from the crowd.
Speaker 2: Have nothing's popping out that looks similar. Craigan screams to
Speaker 2: get more specific and like keep looking at crimes for
Speaker 2: a pattern. Finn says that Jeff York left the courthouse
Speaker 2: for the night at six fourteen, but he wasn't killed
Speaker 2: until nine or ten, so there are three hours unaccounted for.
Speaker 2: At this moment, the Bronx DA walks in Francisco Martinez.
Speaker 2: He wants to talk to Craigan privately. He comes with
Speaker 2: a folder of information. It's York's bank statements and it
Speaker 2: was received by the DA's office two weeks ago. There
Speaker 2: was an investigation because Alvarez, like on the inside, said
Speaker 2: that he bought off York to throw the trial. But
Speaker 2: money actually wasn't going in at all when they looked
Speaker 2: into it. But five hundred dollars was going out every
Speaker 2: three days, so how did he afford that? And he
Speaker 2: wasn't paying bills, his credits in the toilet. What's going
Speaker 2: on here? So the bronx DA dude is like, I
Speaker 2: have no clue. It's up to you now I want
Speaker 2: to find out who killed him.
Speaker 3: He leaves.
Speaker 2: Stabler gets a soda from the vending machine and then
Speaker 2: he tosses it in the air, flips it around, catches it,
Speaker 2: and then hands it to Craigan. It would explode unless
Speaker 2: it's a brisk Unless it's a brisk iced tea, but
Speaker 2: like anything else is.
Speaker 1: It it's got a minute made lemonade or otherwise you're
Speaker 1: about to prank your boss. And Creagan doesn't open it,
Speaker 1: so like he probably is also thinking, like, got my
Speaker 1: detective is a fucking idiot? Why are you juggling?
Speaker 7: Do you?
Speaker 1: Are you a believer in the tap tap tap stops
Speaker 1: the I don't know. I'm a believer, but I do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do it, whether it's a calm can of
Speaker 2: coke or bustling. I tap tap tap Yeah, I've never
Speaker 2: drank out of a can without tapping it.
Speaker 3: Ever, No, I'm the same, I always do. I'm like,
Speaker 3: I don't know where this guy's been tap tap tap.
Speaker 2: You know, Doctor Pepper has like they've they've they've culture
Speaker 2: vultured from the Mormons, and they're making like creamy doctor pepper,
Speaker 2: creamy coconut Doctor peppers and stuff. Oh yeah, because I
Speaker 2: have a friend who on the plane puts half and
Speaker 2: half into the doctor pepper can and she said it's good.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So I haven't tried it, but I am. I obviously
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should. You need more dairy, so you should do.
Speaker 1: You should try it. Why am I such a dairy fiend?
Speaker 2: And then after I had a one of these strawberry
Speaker 2: milk things, I was free ice cream day. I didn't know,
Speaker 2: so I like ice cream please, so I got a
Speaker 2: free you know, I put it in the freezer for later.
Speaker 1: But it's still it's just the dairy is it's coming
Speaker 1: on strong.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: I have a block of Monster in the fridge. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's where I get my dairy intake. For me, it's cheese.
Speaker 1: I'm like a cheese I'm a cheese cycle, I know.
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna say something controversial. I hate the Trader
Speaker 2: Joe's string cheese.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, but is it the kind you eat at
Speaker 1: my house? I mean I'll eat it, of course, but
Speaker 1: I hate I don't like it because I get the light.
Speaker 1: I do get the light, and I do feel as
Speaker 1: though the regular full flavor is probably better. Just I
Speaker 1: don't want you to like be fully against the Trader
Speaker 1: Joe's if you're only having it at my house because
Speaker 1: I am getting the lights, okay, Yeah, which is which sucks,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's certainly not as good as like, uh,
Speaker 1: what was the one you had that one time where
Speaker 1: you were like, oh my god, it was like a
Speaker 1: hidden valley string cheese and you were like freaking out
Speaker 1: about it. You were like, this is so good. This
Speaker 1: is the best dring cheese I've ever had. But I
Speaker 1: wish we could remember the brand.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where it's like, hey, do
Speaker 2: you want to eat seven string cheeses? And it's like
Speaker 2: absolutely not, are you crazy? And then it's like, well,
Speaker 2: how about we deep fry them and put him in
Speaker 2: a you'll dip And it's like, actually, I will pass
Speaker 2: that over to me. Yeah, no one could have any.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So all right, where are we?
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I'm talking so much about Dary. We have
Speaker 2: not even gotten to the lowdown of the lowdown. So anyways,
Speaker 2: there's a soda we got to find out who killed him? Okay,
Speaker 2: Cragan's in suspenders and basically jeffinitely had thirty dollars in
Speaker 2: his account the night he died. The stock screen came
Speaker 2: back clean as well, and Stable tells Craigan that Benson's
Speaker 2: a little over zealous about this case, and Craigan goes, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would be too if I was her.
Speaker 3: What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: So she pops in and she's like, hey, so I
Speaker 2: called the lab and they're going to run the lipstick.
Speaker 2: He tries to shut her down, and she's like, how
Speaker 2: about you just listen. And the DA's investigator who worked
Speaker 2: for Jeff told them that she carried lipstick in her bag,
Speaker 2: but we didn't find it. And guess what. The lipstick
Speaker 2: matches the condom lipstick? But whose lips? You know what's
Speaker 2: going on here? So did she leave saliva behind? What's
Speaker 2: what's up? So no, basically Judas Cziper Captain Judas Ciper
Speaker 2: aka Karen Browning, you know, friend of the pod. She said,
Speaker 2: the imprint is so perfect, and Sailor goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: if it was oral, it would be smudged. So this
Speaker 2: lipprint was put on the condom after it was used,
Speaker 2: so it was kissed. After Melinda Warner is here and
Speaker 2: she's ready for work. She looked at the guy's seamen
Speaker 2: vessels and there was no semen in there or in
Speaker 2: his body. And the semen in the condom is different
Speaker 2: than Jeff's semen and so that wasn't there. But anyway,
Speaker 2: the DNA doesn't match. So there were two men in
Speaker 2: the car that day. And Stabler says, well, that makes
Speaker 2: sense why you guys had no chemistry. He's gay and
Speaker 2: so the New York Ledger, of course Prince has line
Speaker 2: that says murder da and a gay sex sleigh.
Speaker 3: At least, you know, it's a fun's say. I do
Speaker 3: like that. They's the word sleigh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were way way ahead.
Speaker 3: Of drug race.
Speaker 2: Casey and Craigan are walking and talking and they're like,
Speaker 2: so what went on in their fucking car? You know,
Speaker 2: the credit card were stolen, never used. The first thing
Speaker 2: a hooker would do is use them. I mean, Stabler,
Speaker 2: come on, but it's true. So it's not well, yeah,
Speaker 2: because when my friend got pistol lipped in the streets
Speaker 2: of Chicago and they robbed her, then the people went
Speaker 2: to McDonald's and it's like, you truly broke her jaw
Speaker 2: to go to McDonald's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so fuck up. I feel like always what I
Speaker 1: would hear in New York is like people go down
Speaker 1: into the Metro and like buy unlimited Metro cards, like
Speaker 1: a ton of them, really fast, like on those machines,
Speaker 1: because like you are going to cancel your shit like
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, you know, And if you're getting robbed at night,
Speaker 1: it's like best Buys not open if you want to
Speaker 1: buy electronics or anything, you know. So people are getting
Speaker 1: Metro cards. I think that happens a lot. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's all they're getting, but yeah, McDonald's. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: fucking that's so wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, so it's not you know, or I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of the episode Chameleon where she goes and buys kids stuff.
Speaker 2: So that's how they knew that. It was like a
Speaker 2: woman with a kid, you know, maggots and credit card receipts.
Speaker 2: They tell us a lot about what happened, so it's
Speaker 2: not a robbery, sure, but it was a setup. So
Speaker 2: what's going on? Stabler goes, well, this is a known
Speaker 2: lover's lane. Maybe Jeff picked up a guy and had
Speaker 2: a good time with him in Casey's like, then what
Speaker 2: is the motive to kill him? And Craigan goes, maybe
Speaker 2: an accident from rough sex and Benson goes, I don't know.
Speaker 2: He seemed kind of vanilla, and Craigan is savage and goes, well,
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot you didn't know about him.
Speaker 3: She gives him a dirty look.
Speaker 2: He sends her in Stabler to go check out his
Speaker 2: apartment and see what they can find, and he lived
Speaker 2: on West ninety eighth. They see he had a lot
Speaker 2: of medical bills and the day he died, he had
Speaker 2: drinks with Andy Abbott at the Carlson Hotel. Why wouldn't
Speaker 2: Andy mention that? And then they find thousands in medical bills.
Speaker 2: He had insurance through the DA's office, so why is
Speaker 2: he not combining it. Then Stabler opens a cabinet and
Speaker 2: finds tons of meds and says that he probably didn't
Speaker 2: use that insurance to pay the you know, for these pills.
Speaker 2: And then he goes, look at this AZT, so that
Speaker 2: means he was HIV positive and he paid for treatments
Speaker 2: in cash.
Speaker 3: They're walking outside.
Speaker 2: And Sibblers like geeesh, you good and she's like, fuck,
Speaker 2: I'm getting tested and he reminds her, you know, go
Speaker 2: private like Jeff did, and she goes, yeah, no, duh,
Speaker 2: So she's obviously gonna be worrying.
Speaker 1: Is that like a thing though, Like I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: changed now, but like, was that a thing that you, like,
Speaker 1: your work would have to know your HIV status?
Speaker 3: Like or was he just paranoid?
Speaker 2: I mean the insurance would know, Like he just didn't
Speaker 2: want anyone to know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I wondered, like to have thirty dollars in
Speaker 1: your bank account because you're worried about your job finding out?
Speaker 2: I guess right, because he's also closeted. So it's not
Speaker 2: even the AIDS of it. Yeah, Like I'm gay, I
Speaker 2: have AIDS. I mean that's a genre AJO. So like
Speaker 2: he does this joke where he's in New York and
Speaker 2: someone comes in and like pushes him on the chest
Speaker 2: and in this order he pushed millenniy and goes, excuse me,
Speaker 2: I am homeless, I am gay, I have AIDS. I'm
Speaker 2: new in town. And he's just like, you're gonna close
Speaker 2: on new in town. That's not the most dramatic thing
Speaker 2: you said, and he goes, you had me at AIDS
Speaker 2: and he goes I would have worded it, excuse me,
Speaker 2: I'm a new in Town And it gets worse, and
Speaker 2: then he's like, did this guy practice the pitch all
Speaker 2: in the morning, just like I'm gonna push him and
Speaker 2: go I'm new No, no, no, I'm gonna push him and
Speaker 2: go I have AIDS. And it's like this whole thing
Speaker 2: of him planning how he's gonna like enter and it's honestly,
Speaker 2: it's one of the best jokes. And I think about
Speaker 2: it every time I think about AIDS, which is I
Speaker 2: guess often. Okay, talking about this show, but New in
Speaker 2: Town is an amazing special.
Speaker 1: Everybody should watch it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Tim Dillon said this once.
Speaker 2: It's like you never get as good as your first one,
Speaker 2: cause it's really like your life's work.
Speaker 1: Like you put all this simon, you put it all out.
Speaker 2: And then if you become successful, you'll never be as
Speaker 2: good again because your sense of everything is warped.
Speaker 3: People are just yeah.
Speaker 1: And you're also only taking like a year or two
Speaker 1: to put together the next one, probably whereas you spent
Speaker 1: like probably ten years making the first one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, crazy.
Speaker 1: It's like the first seasons of Housewives are always the
Speaker 1: best or like the ones before they knew about the fame,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 2: Anyway, but I'm trying to think because I love Let
Speaker 2: It Go by Bill Burr, like that's my favorite, and
Speaker 2: I won. I don't I wonder if that's his first
Speaker 2: hour or not. But yeah, and you know, John Laney
Speaker 2: did just get better and better. But anyways, if you
Speaker 2: guys haven't heard this ades joke, you should go watch that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, oh, where are we? Where are we getting tested?
Speaker 3: Private?
Speaker 2: Okay, so basically she'll worry about the HIV test. But
Speaker 2: they got to go talk to Andy Abbott immediately, and
Speaker 2: he's tightening his tie while chatting very super casually. He goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: we always have drinks after work. I must have forgot
Speaker 2: because I was so upset. But it's not an out
Speaker 2: of the ordinary thing. I would have popped out at me.
Speaker 2: So Stable goes, But we talked to his coworkers and
Speaker 2: he lied to them about where he was going. Why
Speaker 2: would he do that? Andy says, that's strange. Andy's like,
Speaker 2: that's so weird. You know, he was meeting someone for
Speaker 2: dinner after drinks. He doesn't know, but also didn't ask.
Speaker 2: Jeff didn't talk about his personal life much and they
Speaker 2: ask if he knew he was gay, and Andy is shocked,
Speaker 2: and then a doorbell rings and he calls down for
Speaker 2: his wife, like go grab the door, and he's like,
Speaker 2: are you sure he didn't seem gay? The wife and
Speaker 2: the child come upstairs. The babysitters here, it's time to leave.
Speaker 2: He kisses his daughter good night. The wife buttons his
Speaker 2: sleeve and he says that he left Jeff sitting at
Speaker 2: the Carlson and he had a poker game to get
Speaker 2: to a lot of plays.
Speaker 3: For these men, very busy, very very social lives.
Speaker 2: They're talking to a cocktail waitress who remembers clocking Jeff
Speaker 2: because he was hot and she thought Andy was hot too,
Speaker 2: And that is Michael Beach by the way, and the
Speaker 2: thumbnail on Hulu for the episode is this actor. It
Speaker 2: was booked and blessed. He is busy and he is
Speaker 2: great in this episode. And she says, you know, and
Speaker 2: they're definitely not tourists and they were really good tippers.
Speaker 2: And Andy's story checks out. He did leave first. And
Speaker 2: the detectives are like, this hotel bar seems like pretty
Speaker 2: swinky for DA's and so far from the office.
Speaker 3: Like maybe he was meeting a boyfriend.
Speaker 2: So they go to the desk worker, who seems very
Speaker 2: bitchy and posh, and they show him a photo and
Speaker 2: he knows mister Yorke, who was a regular guest every
Speaker 2: Wednesday and would always check in alone. This week, he
Speaker 2: tried to check in, but they were fully booked. Why
Speaker 2: wouldn't he just reserve it ahead of time? But whatever,
Speaker 2: And I guess that's he's spending money here too, cash,
Speaker 2: and so he was so yeah, so he's like, oh,
Speaker 2: we can call.
Speaker 1: Some of her sister hotels. He goes, Oh, it's no
Speaker 1: big deal, and he left.
Speaker 2: Nobody met him, but he did talk to a football
Speaker 2: player on the way out named Deshaun McGovern who's a
Speaker 2: former running back for Miami and now he's a big
Speaker 2: time real estate persons. They go to McGovern's office. He's
Speaker 2: in a giant office, tons of trophies everywhere. He is
Speaker 2: relaxed in his posture, and he was down meeting a
Speaker 2: client when he ran into Jeff and the lobby. They
Speaker 2: know each other from a kid's charity benefit. They chatted
Speaker 2: because Jeff needed help selling his place, and they're like,
Speaker 2: we saw his apartment. He seems a little poor for you,
Speaker 2: Deshaun giggles. He goes, yeah, yeah, I know. But he
Speaker 2: seemed nice and desperate, so I was happy to help.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to let him down, and I got
Speaker 2: the feeling he had money problems. Stabler asks where he
Speaker 2: was after the hotel, and he goes, well, I came
Speaker 2: back to the office for a little bit, and then
Speaker 2: I went out with some friends. I mean, these men
Speaker 2: social calendars. These are men who lunch. And so Benson
Speaker 2: answers a call. Deshaun offers to give a friends like
Speaker 2: the friend's names from dinner. Benson goes, thanks, we'll holler
Speaker 2: if we need anything, but we gotta go.
Speaker 3: Finn has something.
Speaker 2: So it's a meetup of the Fantastic four, and they
Speaker 2: know who fixed the crime scene to fit the hooker killing.
Speaker 2: And it is copies of three cases, a piece from each.
Speaker 2: So one of the crimes that it's copied is there
Speaker 2: was an underpass with panny host strangle. The next was
Speaker 2: a bronx sex worker beats up a john in a
Speaker 2: car and leaves him unconscious with condom and lipstick, and
Speaker 2: case three mugged and while it taken so and all
Speaker 2: went to trial, and all were prosecuted by Andy Abbott.
Speaker 2: Did Andy kill Jeff York? So Craig doesn't see why
Speaker 2: Andy would kill Jeff though, and then we're like, maybe
Speaker 2: that's a lover's quarrel gone wrong. So once the semen
Speaker 2: in the condom is tested, we can see if it's Andy's.
Speaker 2: But Novak says there's not enough evidence to compel to
Speaker 2: get a DNA sample from Andy. Craigan's like, how about
Speaker 2: those three cases that match them? And it's like, come on, bro,
Speaker 2: you know it's circumstantial, and he can claim someone is
Speaker 2: framing him. Wants to bring Andy in, but he's no dummy.
Speaker 2: He's gonna lawyer up. So Stabler is like, we don't
Speaker 2: have to tell him he's a purp. Let's just say
Speaker 2: we're stuck and we need his help. Craigan sends Stabler
Speaker 2: to go work on that, but tells Benson that Warner
Speaker 2: wants her down at the Morgue. There's fear in Benson's eyes.
Speaker 2: Basically she reveals that Jeff did have aids. Melinda says
Speaker 2: that she will test Benson and she'll keep it a
Speaker 2: secret for her, and she agrees. Melinda's always doing a
Speaker 2: solid Benson does a walk and talk and asks swang
Speaker 2: like fuck, like I have aids, and he's like, listen,
Speaker 2: your risk is low and she's shut. So how long
Speaker 2: can you have aids? You think before you realize you
Speaker 2: have aids? Like, right, you have HIV first?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then that you know turns out, So let's
Speaker 1: say HIV.
Speaker 2: So like I mean, when do you feel sick? Like
Speaker 2: when do you feel a side effect? When do you
Speaker 2: figure it out? Like she you know she had sex
Speaker 2: with ONEm what five years ago? Yeah, exactly when she
Speaker 2: had a tickle in her throat or man, I would
Speaker 2: have imagined that also, like Benson has been tested for
Speaker 2: STIs at her physical at one point in five years,
Speaker 2: like she's if you're working for the NYPD, I'm sure
Speaker 2: you have to have like routine physicals, you know, And like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if STI testing is part of that.
Speaker 2: Somebody can let me know if we have any NYPD listeners,
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, like I would imagine in five years
Speaker 2: she would have known and yeah, they had sex one time,
Speaker 2: but you're right, Like I wonder how long it does
Speaker 2: take show.
Speaker 3: The episode risk?
Speaker 2: You know, these people are having HIV for years before
Speaker 2: they figure it out.
Speaker 3: Let me, let me, let me google this. Okay, according to.
Speaker 1: The NHS of the UK, but that's just my first
Speaker 1: Google result, and I'm sure it's the same everywhere. Most
Speaker 1: people infected with HIV experience a short flu like illness
Speaker 1: that occurs two to six weeks after infection. After this,
Speaker 1: HIV may not cause any symptoms for several years. So
Speaker 1: but up to eighty percent of people who are infected
Speaker 1: get this flu like symptom, like two six weeks, but
Speaker 1: you know, raise temperatures or a throat, body rash, tiredness,
Speaker 1: joint pain. I mean, you could honestly think that was
Speaker 1: just like a virus or like the flu.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those symptoms last one to two weeks, but can
Speaker 1: be longer, and it's a sign that your immune system
Speaker 1: is putting up a fight against the virus. And like
Speaker 1: they said, not for years, but during the time, the
Speaker 1: virus remains active and can cause progressive damage to your
Speaker 1: immune system. So yeah, but yeah, that's a good question
Speaker 1: because it is like a lot of people that are
Speaker 1: just sort of like living with no clue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, he reassures her that her risk is low,
Speaker 2: and she's shocked. She missed this, and he's like, listen,
Speaker 2: you're not the first woman to have sex with a
Speaker 2: closeted man. She says maybe he didn't know, and Huang's like, okay, babe,
Speaker 2: he knew. But also he says sexuality is complicated and
Speaker 2: just because he was gay doesn't mean he wasn't attracted
Speaker 2: to you. Andy's wife is now running through the halls
Speaker 2: looking for Andy. She looks worried. She tells Bunsen that
Speaker 2: Andy canceled on lunch and told her to meet him
Speaker 2: at SVU. She asks if there was a break in
Speaker 2: the case. Huang says by and waves away. Andy isn't
Speaker 2: answering his cell. She wants to know if they have
Speaker 2: heard from him or anything, and goes, no, but you know,
Speaker 2: I'll let you know if I see him. So Craigan
Speaker 2: meets Benson and Huang in the spyglass and guess what
Speaker 2: in cement room bars is Andy Benson lied to his
Speaker 2: wife's face, and Stabler's in there with him and they're
Speaker 2: going through files.
Speaker 1: I can't believe Olivia lied to the wife.
Speaker 2: So he's looking through suspects and isn't keen on what's
Speaker 2: going on, but Benson is thinking about his wife hardcore
Speaker 2: and it's like, fuck, what if Jeff is HIV positive
Speaker 2: and Andy might be two? They can't warn her legally,
Speaker 2: you know, HIV status is confidential even after death. Stabler
Speaker 2: comes out for a moment and they tell him his
Speaker 2: wife is there, and he's like, oh, hell, yes, let's
Speaker 2: play with that. So it's time to play the wife card.
Speaker 1: Uh oh.
Speaker 3: They hand him a coffee mug. Is that a DNA? Gotcha?
Speaker 2: He gives up on the search and can't think of anyone,
Speaker 2: but Stabler's like, listen, it has to be someone that
Speaker 2: knew your cases.
Speaker 3: Who can it be?
Speaker 2: But Andy doesn't see the connection, so Stabler brings up
Speaker 2: an inside job suggestion. It finally clicks. He's like, oh
Speaker 2: you think I did it? He and he asks if
Speaker 2: he's a suspect, and Stabler tries to table. Stabler tries
Speaker 2: to bully him. He's a lawyer. It's gonna be harder
Speaker 2: than your usual gameplay, Stabler. Benson walks in. He says,
Speaker 2: why would I kill my friend? And she goes, you
Speaker 2: were more than friends. He calls her crazy. She says,
Speaker 2: your wife is here, by the way, and he gets stern,
Speaker 2: what did you tell Mary Allen dramatic music plays. She
Speaker 2: says she didn't say anything yet. He says, don't threaten me.
Speaker 2: He gets loud. If you spread these fucked rumors, you're
Speaker 2: looking at departmental charges.
Speaker 3: Annie.
Speaker 2: Then he threatens a lawsuit as well. He says, you
Speaker 2: are forcing things together. Benson says, okay, easy solution, give
Speaker 2: us your DNA. He goes, do you think I'm fucking stupid?
Speaker 2: Go fuck yourself. He screams, I wasn't even there. I
Speaker 2: had a poker game every Wednesday night. He runs off.
Speaker 2: Now we're at Jerome Adam's office. It's another man in
Speaker 2: the poker hang, nice office, big chair, rich vibes, frame
Speaker 2: photo of his kids.
Speaker 3: He says he was stressed.
Speaker 2: They cut to another man and dreads, who picks up
Speaker 2: the story. Stressed about the threats in court and when
Speaker 2: they keep pushing both his friends don't like these accusations.
Speaker 2: They're like, what's going on, But they ask about the
Speaker 2: poker games, the changing locations, and this time it was
Speaker 2: at a Brownston and Park slope, the rich office guy's place.
Speaker 2: The wife goes to the movies with her friend and
Speaker 2: he loves poker Knights. Five to six dudes beers a
Speaker 2: rowdy time, no limit. There is a frame at Dread's
Speaker 2: place and it's all the men that play and includes.
Speaker 1: The football player.
Speaker 2: So DeShawn is in this poker group, and if they
Speaker 2: were all at the game together, why wouldn't Andy say that?
Speaker 2: So something is going on and everyone's protecting him. So
Speaker 2: what did they have to hide? Finn thinks that they
Speaker 2: were all on the down low. Craigan goes down, what
Speaker 2: So now we learn about the down low and it's
Speaker 2: about black men having sex with other men and they
Speaker 2: all have wives and kids and it's just sex. But
Speaker 2: they don't think they're gay, like they believe you have
Speaker 2: to be a man and being gay is for the whites.
Speaker 2: Benson says, even whites have issues being gay, and you
Speaker 2: know they're doing crystal meth and he's like, yeah, but
Speaker 2: these guys they go home and have like sex with
Speaker 2: their wives and they pretend to be straight, and they
Speaker 2: all stare at him extra long, and he goes, don't
Speaker 2: look at me, I just know stuff, and Finn goes.
Speaker 1: A classic iced tea line. I would say, don't look
Speaker 1: at me, I just know stuff. I remember watching this
Speaker 1: episode and this being the first time I'd ever heard
Speaker 1: of this concept, which we will get into more later,
Speaker 1: but like this episode as always educating me. I guess I.
Speaker 2: Don't know what here this is to when I learned
Speaker 2: about it, but it was kind of a thing in
Speaker 2: Chicago where people from the South Side would come to Boystown,
Speaker 2: like everyone kind of talked about that and then do their.
Speaker 1: Gay shit and go back home.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know when I was spending my
Speaker 2: time in the streets of Chicago.
Speaker 1: I learned as I was eating it.
Speaker 3: Duncan.
Speaker 1: We were just talking about this at a brunch that
Speaker 1: I was at last weekend with a bunch of people
Speaker 1: from my hometown and they were like, oh, they were like,
Speaker 1: there were so many closeted gay dads in New Canaan,
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait, do you really think so?
Speaker 1: Like I never knew anybody's dad, like I could never
Speaker 1: I could not tell you what any of my friend's
Speaker 1: dads looked like.
Speaker 3: I knew all their moms.
Speaker 1: I could draw their mom's faces if I had to,
Speaker 1: Like all of them, I knew their moms.
Speaker 3: I never knew the dads.
Speaker 1: The dads were always like at work, and so my
Speaker 1: friend was like, oh, I know guys that have come
Speaker 1: from the little metro north out to Connecticut to have
Speaker 1: sex with married guys out there. Like I was, like,
Speaker 1: I just never even put that, you know, in my
Speaker 1: mind about my little suburban town.
Speaker 2: Well not only closeted, but your brother's friend, who's the
Speaker 2: sex addict therapist, was saying, Yes, of his clients are
Speaker 2: like Connecticut, you know, men who ruin their.
Speaker 1: Lives for their you know, yeah, a listener, A listener
Speaker 1: shout out.
Speaker 5: To my friend.
Speaker 1: I won't name I won't name him. No, we won't
Speaker 1: name butt a shout out.
Speaker 2: So Finn then goes to talk to m a governor,
Speaker 2: and he's like, I'll go do that, and he's gonna
Speaker 2: connect better than the whiteswell and you know, so he's
Speaker 2: got he's got to take charge. And this dude has
Speaker 2: McGovern has so much fruit on his counter. He's drinking OJA,
Speaker 2: nice place, big shoulders, amazing view, he's divorced, no kids.
Speaker 2: He sits and drinks the oj in front of his
Speaker 2: gorgeous view, and Finn butters them up like I'm a
Speaker 2: football fan, and then insults him with why didn't you
Speaker 2: have any endorsement deals? You know, you're so good at ball.
Speaker 2: Where's your money? He doesn't like that. He stands up,
Speaker 2: what's your problem, man? Finn says, what's your problem? He
Speaker 2: turns and they all look at the view, and he goes,
Speaker 2: I was an athlete hero. Everyone looked up to me,
Speaker 2: and they still do, and I wanted to stay that way.
Speaker 2: Finn calls him out, like, yep, that won't happen if
Speaker 2: they know you fuck men. He says, yo, get clear, bro,
Speaker 2: and then he goes, I'm no f word. He says,
Speaker 2: you're on the download, dude, and this saint no poker game.
Speaker 2: You guys are having sex with each other. He says,
Speaker 2: I can't overcome this. Finn goes, you tell me details
Speaker 2: or I will start digging around and talking about these parties.
Speaker 2: And he says, I'm not gay. I have relationships with
Speaker 2: women and sex with men, and Finn goes, news flash,
Speaker 2: you're gay. So dramatic music plays and he says that
Speaker 2: the game has been going on for four years. Every
Speaker 2: week someone gets, you know, someone gets to take someone
Speaker 2: to the bedroom, and it's like nothing ever happened. No condoms,
Speaker 2: because if you bring condoms, that means that you're admitting
Speaker 2: why you went there. So they asked how Jeff Yorke
Speaker 2: is involved, and Jeff fell in love with Andy and
Speaker 2: wanted him to leave his wife. So Andy asked Deshan
Speaker 2: to get some sense into him, and he looks off.
Speaker 2: Andy did it. He didn't mean too. Jeff would have
Speaker 2: dragged everyone into a mess. So they go to arrest Andy.
Speaker 2: They read him his rights. He takes over reading the
Speaker 2: rights because he knows his rights. He is a lawyer.
Speaker 2: So he's back in the cement room bars and he's like,
Speaker 2: I'm not gay, I wasn't his lover and I did
Speaker 2: not kill him. Benson says, listen, the sperm is going
Speaker 2: to be a match, and then Shaun c Zerko, you
Speaker 2: know lawyer, He goes he can explain that. So I
Speaker 2: can't wait to know why the Jew's was in there.
Speaker 2: So Andy knew Jeff wanted to talk and had been tense,
Speaker 2: so he knew something was up, and he thought it
Speaker 2: was about Alvarez, but he said he was in love
Speaker 2: with him, and he said he didn't feel the same way,
Speaker 2: so he was embarrassed and they both got drunk. He
Speaker 2: gave Andy a ride to the poker game since he
Speaker 2: couldn't get a cab because of racism, I assume. And
Speaker 2: then when they drove by some sex workers, Jeff pulled over.
Speaker 2: He wanted to prove his manhood. He says, I went first,
Speaker 2: you know, And when the sex worker was finished with me,
Speaker 2: I left and I took a cab to Brooklyn, and
Speaker 2: Siegeler goes, why didn't you tell me this to start?
Speaker 1: And Shauncey goes, yeah, right, that would have go over well.
Speaker 2: A threesome with a hooker, and he says he blames
Speaker 2: himself and he shouldn't have left chef there. Benson goes, yep,
Speaker 2: you know you have answers for everything, but you didn't
Speaker 2: account for Deshaun talking to him at the hotel coincidence,
Speaker 2: and he goes, no, it's probably a business meeting. Stabler
Speaker 2: Yell's false. It was a meeting about the murder and
Speaker 2: Jeff confessing his love. You didn't want your wife to
Speaker 2: know you were on the down low. He's like, I'm
Speaker 2: sure he said exactly what you wanted him to say,
Speaker 2: so you wouldn't ruin his life. Novak's watching behind the
Speaker 2: spyglass and she goes, damn, he's good.
Speaker 1: This wild story might work, and Finn goes, oh, wait
Speaker 1: really quickly, really quickly. So what he's saying, Andy is
Speaker 1: saying happened is that they pulled over a sex worker
Speaker 1: gave hu a bij Andy Andy.
Speaker 3: And that's why his jiz was in that condom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then the that still doesn't really make sense
Speaker 1: that there's like a perfect lipstick print on it, right,
Speaker 1: but whatever, oh yeah, correct, yeah, he but he doesn't
Speaker 1: even know that evidence yet, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like you thinks.
Speaker 3: He really did it.
Speaker 2: He's a lawyer, and yeah, so, and even Novak's impressed
Speaker 2: with him, but Finn thinks the jury is going to
Speaker 2: see right through him. But Novak does not think that
Speaker 2: family man gets drunk with colleague, wrong place, wrong time.
Speaker 2: Finn goes, yeah, but Deshaun will testify, and Novak and
Speaker 2: Finn are in his office, and he of course yells,
Speaker 2: hell no, he doesn't want to do it. He will
Speaker 2: fucking lie and you are not going to mess up
Speaker 2: his life. He's going to deny, deny, deny. So Finn
Speaker 2: does tell Novac like, yeah, you were off, you idiot.
Speaker 2: So whatever, he kicks them out of the office. Now,
Speaker 2: what we need proof, always in need of more proof,
Speaker 2: I would say, that's in every episode. So they go
Speaker 2: to Warner to try to get more proof out of her.
Speaker 2: Squeeze any extra info they have. So she ran the
Speaker 2: DNA and the dead can speak. The HIV in Jeff's
Speaker 2: blood is the same as Andy's, so Andy has HIV two.
Speaker 2: It's suggestive that it's like the same same kid, you know,
Speaker 2: back and forth, but it's not conclusive.
Speaker 1: There's no numbers, and it's not good enough for a jury.
Speaker 3: So now what.
Speaker 2: Benson walks away, Werner stops her and whispers that she's negative,
Speaker 2: and Benson is obviously happy to hear that news. So
Speaker 2: Novak and Benson walk into SVU headquarters like what do
Speaker 2: we do? Finn walks by them, and WARN's like, uh oh,
Speaker 2: she is steaming. Mary Ellen runs up like how do
Speaker 2: you what are you doing? How dare you you think
Speaker 2: my husband killed our friend? So Benson is like, we
Speaker 2: have credible evidence, and she goes, oh, more lies. You
Speaker 2: lied to me already asking me questions when you knew
Speaker 2: he was a suspect. She is a damn good actress,
Speaker 2: and she goes, don't lie to me again, And now
Speaker 2: Novak pops in, being messy as hell, and She's like,
Speaker 2: your husband is gay and having an affair with jeff Yorke.
Speaker 2: She calls Novak sick. She goes, you don't have to
Speaker 2: believe me, but for your own sake, get an HIV
Speaker 2: test jeff had aids. So Mary Ellen goes go to
Speaker 2: hell and runs off. So Novak says she needed to know.
Speaker 2: Chauncey disagrees and chase her down a hallway and goes, hey,
Speaker 2: this is a complaint to the Disciplinary Committee of the bar,
Speaker 2: demanding you be suspended from the practice of law is
Speaker 2: so unprofessional, if not criminal.
Speaker 3: The what you did.
Speaker 2: You revealed medical information that's confidential to a client's wife.
Speaker 2: And she goes, listen, I want to protect her, but
Speaker 2: you know, he thinks that she's trying to humiliate the wife.
Speaker 2: And then he says, but don't worry, I'll rip this
Speaker 2: up if we can make a deal. So she goes, Lol,
Speaker 2: you're blackmailing me while accusing me of ethical issues. He goes,
Speaker 2: I'm defending my client. I didn't break the law man
Speaker 2: two five years probation. Take it or leave it. She's like,
Speaker 2: fuck you, so she walks off. She runs to Marlow
Speaker 2: Thomas's office AKA you know Mary Conway Clerical offices and
Speaker 2: she's like, damn, you're crazy.
Speaker 3: Novak goes, fuck the law.
Speaker 2: You know, this woman's life is at stake, and Marlow goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you're screwed, and Novak knows it, and it's like,
Speaker 2: you also did it to play games. You didn't just
Speaker 2: care about her health. Admit it, and she's like, sure,
Speaker 2: I do know that. So Novak goes to the wife
Speaker 2: and the wife goes, you shouldn't be here, and Novak
Speaker 2: is there to apologize. Novak admits she was wrong and
Speaker 2: it wasn't her place to tell her, and she's like,
Speaker 2: if I was in your position, I would want someone
Speaker 2: to tell me. She says, you ruined my life and
Speaker 2: Novak responds, I didn't expose you to HIV Andy did?
Speaker 2: She responds, I didn't put Andy's arrest on the front
Speaker 2: page and on the TV. I have two children. They're
Speaker 2: asking me what their daddy did wrong. What do I
Speaker 2: tell them? Novak doesn't know what to even say. You know,
Speaker 2: she goes, go talk to your husband and then she cries,
Speaker 2: and then Mary Allen goes, how do I tell my kids?
Speaker 2: I'm HIV positive? So Novak says sorry again the wife
Speaker 2: sighs she doesn't want her girls to suffer.
Speaker 1: Well, wait, I just want to really quickly interject here.
Speaker 1: It is wild that the episode retro that we just
Speaker 1: did a few episodes ago is like in the same.
Speaker 3: Season as this, it was ten episodes ago.
Speaker 1: And in that episode it was like, it was a
Speaker 1: crime for you to not like get your children tested
Speaker 1: and not get them treatment. So how is it not
Speaker 1: a crime of Andy Abbott to just be HIV positive?
Speaker 3: And like, I guess he.
Speaker 1: Could claim he didn't know, he don't think and didn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: he doesn't know, so he can't be so yeah, But
Speaker 1: like to me, it's it is almost like a life
Speaker 1: saving move of Novak to tell the wife, even though
Speaker 1: it's against like bureaucratic privacy laws, because who knows if
Speaker 1: he was even planning on telling her if he got
Speaker 1: off you know, no, I bet he would take it
Speaker 1: to the Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also he's a man, so it's not you know,
Speaker 2: another man woman thing. I'll bring up. I was reading
Speaker 2: something where it's about widows. It's about Bob Saggett's widow
Speaker 2: was writing something and how like men we talk about
Speaker 2: this all the time, get married right away. I mean,
Speaker 2: their wife can be not dead for even a year,
Speaker 2: and the men are remarried marry a friend, like they
Speaker 2: need to be with someone, and we're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, he needed someone. But with women, she's like,
Speaker 2: you could honestly wait five years and it's never enough time.
Speaker 3: And people are.
Speaker 2: So mad when women widows date or find love again.
Speaker 2: And she's dating someone and she's like, I talk to
Speaker 2: his daughters like I did love my fucking husband. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's just something I didn't think about. But it's true.
Speaker 2: I mean I judged the men pretty harshly when they
Speaker 2: marry so fast that it's something I talk about.
Speaker 3: But we are like, oh, thank god, someone will help
Speaker 3: with the kids.
Speaker 2: But when women do it, it's like you should be
Speaker 2: sad for the rest of your life.
Speaker 3: You yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely double standard.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2: But you know, Novak is sorry, Like at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, Novac is really sorry about the whole situation.
Speaker 3: What she did.
Speaker 2: She knew she was kind of selfish, but like you said,
Speaker 2: it is the right thing to tell the wife. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, so the wife's size. She doesn't want
Speaker 2: her girls to suffer. So they have a plan. They
Speaker 2: go to the prison, Novak and the Wifey go to
Speaker 2: see Andy and Chauncey. Chauncey's like, what the fuck, bitch,
Speaker 2: you were going way too far. The wife interrupts and says,
Speaker 2: I asked her to come. It was my decision. So
Speaker 2: Chauncey stands down and Uh Mary Ellen walks over to Andy.
Speaker 2: She sits down and holds Andy's hands and says, one
Speaker 2: day you picked up a little paintbrush and you painted
Speaker 2: a watercolor Christmas card for me. She remembers it like yesterday,
Speaker 2: and she fell in love with him that day, and
Speaker 2: she still loves him. She says she will love him
Speaker 2: till the day she dies, and by the grace of God,
Speaker 2: I will live long enough to see your girls grow
Speaker 2: up and find their way in life. He's crying listening.
Speaker 2: She says, I forgive you. They are both wet eyes.
Speaker 2: She can't forgive him, though, if he lets the kids suffer,
Speaker 2: you know, He's like, she goes, if you let their
Speaker 2: kids and their friends and families be destroyed with a
Speaker 2: trial that will drag everyone through the mud.
Speaker 1: I will not forgive you.
Speaker 2: She's asking him, like, Andy, be a man, admit what
Speaker 2: you've done, and all he can muster is, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: and he should.
Speaker 3: Have told her the truth.
Speaker 2: And he's like just very sorry what he did to her,
Speaker 2: and she knows he is, and he starts talking. He
Speaker 2: wanted me to leave my family. I couldn't. I couldn't
Speaker 2: admit I'm gay. We argued and I got so angry
Speaker 2: and I killed him. Novak says. Man won seven and
Speaker 2: a half to fifteen years, and you alocute, but only
Speaker 2: the plea and sentence are on record and the rest
Speaker 2: will be sealed. Chauncey, because of that, will drop the
Speaker 2: disciplinary committee thing. Chauncey turns and asks Andy, and Andy
Speaker 2: nods and says done.
Speaker 3: She ugly cries.
Speaker 1: They hug. She cries into his neck, and that's dick
Speaker 1: wolf baby. It's like the word bisexuals never brought up
Speaker 1: the whole episode, like no one's ever just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I kind of like both, I don't know, it's interesting
Speaker 1: like that, well, you know, famously, it's like women are
Speaker 1: allowed to be bisexual, I think, but like men, it's
Speaker 1: like now if you like, you know, you can't be.
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, our dear friend of the pod,
Speaker 1: Robert Brooks Cohen is an out and proud bisexual who
Speaker 1: has a podcast about being bisexual and you know, wants
Speaker 1: to end the end that stigma. All right, well, thank
Speaker 1: you for that detailed recap, Lisa, and now we're going
Speaker 1: to get into the true crime, true life, true life phenomenon,
Speaker 1: whatever you'll call it. I just looked into the concept
Speaker 1: of the down low, which became like a super has
Speaker 1: an interesting history, and I will say right now, there
Speaker 1: is not a lot of current information out about the downloaw.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's like as much of a thing anymore,
Speaker 1: but it had like a cultural moment. So when I'm what,
Speaker 1: a lot of my research is from the early two
Speaker 1: thousands or mid two thousands, around when this episode came out,
Speaker 1: So just you know, a little warning that, like, I
Speaker 1: don't think a lot of this is like still holding up.
Speaker 1: This is just like what the thoughts were at the
Speaker 1: time that this episode came out. So obviously, yeah, an
Speaker 1: inversion of low down is the episode is called lowdown.
Speaker 1: It's an inversion of the term down low, and it
Speaker 1: was originally popularized as a as a term just meaning secret,
Speaker 1: like you know, keep it on the DL, like by
Speaker 1: the way, like we're gonna drink tonight, keep it on
Speaker 1: the DL, you know anything, Like I remember saying this
Speaker 1: all the time in school and when I was young.
Speaker 1: So it was popularized in the nineties by singers like TLC.
Speaker 3: And Boo R.
Speaker 1: Kelly, and then it morphed into a slang term for
Speaker 1: the African American community that refers to Black men who
Speaker 1: publicly identify as heterosexual but seek out sexual encounters with men.
Speaker 1: Obviously we glean that from the episode. In fact, in
Speaker 1: medical research there's even the term down low is used.
Speaker 1: Other terms used in the medical research are sexual identity,
Speaker 1: behavior discordance, dude sex, bud sex, hetero flexible sex, hetero
Speaker 1: flexible men, sex between straight men, behaviorally bisexual, non gay,
Speaker 1: and heterosexual self presentation. So I just thought those were
Speaker 1: like some interesting terms that are also used it medically
Speaker 1: to describe this sort of phenomenon. All the research that
Speaker 1: is about this basically says that, you know, Black culture
Speaker 1: is typically hyper masculine, centers masculinity and fatherhood as the
Speaker 1: primary concerns of Black men, and so most down low
Speaker 1: men identify themselves not as gay or bisexual, but first
Speaker 1: and foremost as black. So to them in Black culture,
Speaker 1: that equates to being inherently masculine. And also in this culture, homosexuality,
Speaker 1: as they say in the episode, was historically thought to
Speaker 1: be a white man's perversion. But the down low subculture
Speaker 1: rejects LGBT culture because they think that LGBT culture is
Speaker 1: like white and effeminate.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and three, there was a big report,
Speaker 1: a big article that was called double Lives on the
Speaker 1: Download that came out in two thousand and three where
Speaker 1: there was like a very long article in New York
Speaker 1: Times magazine where the reporter like sort of embedded himself
Speaker 1: with DL guys and like learned a little bit about
Speaker 1: like where they were coming from and their philosophies and stuff,
Speaker 1: and not that these men speak for everyone, but one
Speaker 1: of the guys he spoke to, who gave the name
Speaker 1: rakim Uh to the reporters, said, quote, we know there
Speaker 1: are black gay rappers, black gay athletes.
Speaker 3: And they're all on the DL.
Speaker 1: If you're white, you can come out as openly gay,
Speaker 1: skier or actor or whatever. It might hurt you some,
Speaker 1: but it's not like if you're black and gay, because
Speaker 1: then it's like you've let down the whole black community,
Speaker 1: black women, black history, black pride end quote. So that's
Speaker 1: a little bit where some of these guys are coming
Speaker 1: from with this. So the DL label they felt was
Speaker 1: the safest option for them, so they don't risk losing
Speaker 1: their family or friends or their you know, status in
Speaker 1: their communities. And it's more than just being in the closet,
Speaker 1: you know, it's different from being in the closet because
Speaker 1: these men were actively like dating or marrying women while
Speaker 1: maintaining this masculine image. They would obviously meet anonymously. Many
Speaker 1: of them were young inner city men who participate in
Speaker 1: hyper masculinity or what New York's Time magazine called thug
Speaker 1: culture quote unquote, So you know a lot of these
Speaker 1: guys two yes, But it's also very different from what
Speaker 1: is presented in this episode, as these men are all
Speaker 1: very successful, they're all very like they're they're educated, they're successful,
Speaker 1: they have great jobs, they have families that they like.
Speaker 1: A lot of the research suggests that men with that
Speaker 1: kind of background would be more comfortable coming out and
Speaker 1: that it's like this more like inner city guys that
Speaker 1: are like more obsessed with like the social hyper masculine
Speaker 1: part of it, that were more part of this culture.
Speaker 3: But you know, I think the show plays with both.
Speaker 1: It's also worth mentioning that the term down low was
Speaker 1: eventually co opted and turned into a marketing term in
Speaker 1: the gay porn world, which people accuse it of using
Speaker 1: that word to sexualize Black and Latino communities, which are
Speaker 1: already like sexualized men, I would say, and women. The
Speaker 1: DL scene really started to pop off kind of in
Speaker 1: the nineties, but the first mainstream outlet to report on
Speaker 1: it was the La Times in February of two thousand
Speaker 1: and one. By two thousand and three, this article that
Speaker 1: I mentioned comes out that's like a huge sort of
Speaker 1: bombshell about this subculture.
Speaker 3: And then by two thousand and four, Oprah's talking about it. Baby.
Speaker 1: So by then men, you know, by the two thousands,
Speaker 1: men are finding other DL men on websites, internet chatrooms,
Speaker 1: private parties like this poker night type of thing, and
Speaker 1: special knights at clubs. But then at this also around
Speaker 1: this time, the DL phenomenon is starting to worry the
Speaker 1: public health sector. Much like in this episode, they feared
Speaker 1: that DL men were spreading HIV to their wives and
Speaker 1: girlfriends because they would be like unknowing of their status. Also,
Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, closer to when this episode aired,
Speaker 1: the Center for Disease Control the CDC said a third
Speaker 1: of young urban Black men who have sex with men
Speaker 1: are HIV positive and ninety percent of them are unaware
Speaker 1: of their status. So in two thousand and one, that's
Speaker 1: like a pretty scary statistic. You know that a third
Speaker 1: of young of these young men have it and that
Speaker 1: most of them don't know. So in two thousand and four, also,
Speaker 1: AIDS was the leading cause of death for African Americans
Speaker 1: ages twenty five to forty four. Black women accounted for
Speaker 1: seventy two percent of all new female AIDS cases. And
Speaker 1: it was yeah, and it's really interesting because this medical researcher,
Speaker 1: Sandra Singleton MacDonald, she had gone down to work at
Speaker 1: the CDC in Atlanta in nineteen eighty six and she's
Speaker 1: been She showed up being like, I want to research
Speaker 1: diseases that affect black people in the South. And they
Speaker 1: were like, one of her colleagues was like, you should
Speaker 1: look at HIV and AIDS. She was like, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I said, black people like because HIV and AIDS were
Speaker 1: simply like a white gay disease. It's like that's how
Speaker 1: it had been framed by the public even though this
Speaker 1: and that was in eighty six, So fast forward to
Speaker 1: like fifteen years down the line, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: like a huge, a huge problem for the black community,
Speaker 1: and she says Sandra Singleton McDonald says she tried to
Speaker 1: warn leaders in the black community and they looked at
Speaker 1: her like she was nuts. They told her that's a
Speaker 1: white problem. And a huge turning point was like five
Speaker 1: years later when Magic Johnson revealed his status in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, and that's what got a lot of black
Speaker 1: men to attention. And they said they were being flooded
Speaker 1: with calls of black men being like, how do I
Speaker 1: what does this mean?
Speaker 3: How do I get tested?
Speaker 1: Like so obviously now I think there's more public education
Speaker 1: that AIDS and HIV can affect any community, and it
Speaker 1: seems that.
Speaker 2: We It just reminded me, you know, I was just
Speaker 2: thinking how it sucks to be in the closet and
Speaker 2: I'll want not you know, have to keep your life
Speaker 2: a secret, and how if you don't know or you're
Speaker 2: not willing to come to terms, you're not getting tested.
Speaker 2: And remind me of something I saw not having to
Speaker 2: do with this, But I guess there's a book that's
Speaker 2: banned in a lot of places, but it's like a
Speaker 2: sex said book for kids. And this little girl took
Speaker 2: it out from the library and went to her mom
Speaker 2: and goes, this is this is what's happening to me.
Speaker 2: And it gives kids the words on how to like
Speaker 2: express that they're being abused. And her dad was raping her,
Speaker 2: oh and now and now he's in prison. And it's like,
Speaker 2: so thank god for this book that she was able
Speaker 2: to see herself in it and point it to her
Speaker 2: mom and be like that that's happening to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And all of these right wing lunatics are trying to
Speaker 2: get it banned, and it's like, no, these kids need
Speaker 2: this information more than anybody. And it's something I never
Speaker 2: thought about. I mean, I think about lots of stuff,
Speaker 2: but not in this context where if I get into
Speaker 2: an argument or something, I'd be like, well, how do
Speaker 2: you want a kid to know what's happening? Like the
Speaker 2: secrecy is what allows all this to happen.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yes, I'm glad I saw that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that's heartbreaking, but I'm glad that she was,
Speaker 1: Like the book helped her.
Speaker 3: That's that the.
Speaker 2: Book helps her and that her mom believed her so
Speaker 2: fucked did something. That's the little book banning the law
Speaker 2: worked and put the dat away. You know, It's like
Speaker 2: so many steps had to happen for it to even
Speaker 2: you know, to get some sort of justice. But yeah, yeah, crazy, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: So back to AIDS, my bad, back to age AIDS
Speaker 2: and HIV. Imagine Johnson what kind of like a hero
Speaker 2: because I don't I mean, I wasn't really aware during
Speaker 2: this time.
Speaker 3: I was probably very little, but people still are obsessed.
Speaker 2: With him, Like I'm sure there was jokes, and there's jokes,
Speaker 2: like I'm sure you know, I think it was like yeah,
Speaker 2: but no one respected him less unless I'm really not
Speaker 2: part of that community.
Speaker 1: And I think that he was like a late night
Speaker 1: punchline probably in the nineties. But I think like now
Speaker 1: he's like a trailblazer.
Speaker 3: Like the fact that.
Speaker 2: Well now people just shut on Magic Johnson because he
Speaker 2: has a gay son, you know, who loves makeup.
Speaker 3: So that's yeah, yeah, it's like you can be that.
Speaker 2: I mean that's really interesting too, where it's like Magic
Speaker 2: Johnson is still like seen as straight and masculine and
Speaker 2: an athletic hero, and so.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I think he when he came out
Speaker 1: with his status, he also said, like, I've been cheating
Speaker 1: on my wife with other women, and so that's like
Speaker 1: where he like he sort of controlled the narrative on that.
Speaker 1: I mean, whether that's the truth or not, I have
Speaker 1: no fucking idea, but you know, like that's so he
Speaker 1: never lost any of the like quote unquote masculinity points
Speaker 1: that he's like having, you know, with it.
Speaker 2: Would have gotten down so much different. You're right, yeah,
Speaker 2: like he wouldn't have. I don't know, it's.
Speaker 3: Like it would have been different.
Speaker 1: I think if like, let's say the character in this
Speaker 1: episode who's a football player who's divorced with no children
Speaker 1: suddenly is like IMHIV positive, I feel like the narrative
Speaker 1: would have taken a life of its own, you know,
Speaker 1: like he knows how it would come out across across.
Speaker 1: So anyway, obviously there's a ton more public education that
Speaker 1: AIDS and HIV can affect any group, and it's not
Speaker 1: a white or a black issue obviously, And it seems also,
Speaker 1: like I said at the beginning, the download phenomenon, at
Speaker 1: least it probably still exists, of course, but it's died
Speaker 1: down in terms of being like now, homosexuality I think
Speaker 1: is more culturally accepted across the board, and they're safer
Speaker 1: sex practices in terms of AIDS and HIV education, people
Speaker 1: know to be safer than I think they probably did
Speaker 1: in the late nineties early two thousands. And there's also
Speaker 1: like a flip side to this, like some researchers claim
Speaker 1: that white men are on the DL just as much
Speaker 1: as black and that research that claims that this is
Speaker 1: unique to black culture is just trying to like pathologize
Speaker 1: black sexuality and attribute it to the spray of spread
Speaker 1: of HIV while overlooking other factors like drug use and
Speaker 1: poverty and things that can you know, affect the spread
Speaker 1: of HIV.
Speaker 3: So I also.
Speaker 1: Found this opinion piece by a writer in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: Ryan Lee, who wrote for The Reckoning criticizing the New
Speaker 1: York Times magazine piece, saying that it basically created this
Speaker 1: image of black gay and bisexual men as quote unquote predatory, duplicitous,
Speaker 1: and responsible for alarmingly disproportionate rates of HIV among straight
Speaker 1: black women. And he also wrote, quote while white gay
Speaker 1: and bisexual men were granted victimhood and the narrative about
Speaker 1: their lives in the closet. Any black gay man who
Speaker 1: was not upfront about his sexual orientation suddenly became an
Speaker 1: aide super spreader lying in wait a pathology who's taint
Speaker 1: soon splashed onto black openly gay men and ultimately black
Speaker 1: men altogether. So I think this, according to this, which
Speaker 1: is very possibly true, you know, it made black men
Speaker 1: out to be predators who are just like, you know,
Speaker 1: not caring about their status and spreading aids, while white
Speaker 1: men could be doing this just as much. And like,
Speaker 1: why are we putting this all? So it's it's just
Speaker 1: an interesting flip side, you know.
Speaker 2: And so like we just mentioned every white dude and
Speaker 2: Connecticut it out cheating on his way, Yeah, I know,
Speaker 2: right in the closet.
Speaker 1: So that, yeah, I wonder why. And there's white people
Speaker 1: who have sated with Yeah, like, there's white people who
Speaker 1: have just as much like religious shame over being gay,
Speaker 1: probably as they're as as like is equivalent to you know,
Speaker 1: this hyper masculine shame that these that men might have.
Speaker 1: Other scholars think it's also unfair to paint black culture
Speaker 1: as more homophobic than white culture. Went back in the
Speaker 1: forties and fifties, when anti gay sentiment was at an
Speaker 1: all time high, Black society was way cooler with it
Speaker 1: than white society was. So is it like really fair
Speaker 1: to say, like, oh, well, to be black and gay
Speaker 1: so much worse than to be white and gay. I mean, really,
Speaker 1: everything you think you fell out of a coconut tree.
Speaker 1: Everything exists in the context. You know, like, sure, you're
Speaker 1: white growing up in New York City might be very
Speaker 1: different than your white growing up in like Appalachia or
Speaker 1: like a place where you'd be run out of your
Speaker 1: family if you told them you were gay. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm just like this, everything I've presented today
Speaker 1: is just like what was written about in the early
Speaker 1: two thousands when this episode came out. I'm not an
Speaker 1: anthropologist or a in the you know, psychology field, so
Speaker 1: I can't say, like where a lot of the like
Speaker 1: what is really true or not? But I think that's
Speaker 1: what the episode was trying to And and the DL
Speaker 1: as a concept was featured on OZ Law and Order
Speaker 1: like a ton of different TV shows, Like at this time,
Speaker 1: it was like a thing people were talking about. And
Speaker 1: I think now, at least if you're sort of on
Speaker 1: the down low, and cheating on your wife with men
Speaker 1: you're using protection, you know, or maybe not sleeping with
Speaker 1: your wife. Hopefully people know, uh more save sex practices,
Speaker 1: but that's not on that.
Speaker 2: But also don't cheat yeaay straight HIV not like don't
Speaker 2: cheat yeah yeah yeah yeah, And we don't like cheating
Speaker 2: on this podcast.
Speaker 1: So another case that popped up as possibly being associated.
Speaker 1: It's a very loose but I'll just walk you guys
Speaker 1: through it. It is about a high profile lawyer named
Speaker 1: Frank Maccaro. He was a very high profilelawyer in Tampa, Florida,
Speaker 1: and he was known to be like a hot blooded
Speaker 1: Italian guy. He liked to party, he had a temper,
Speaker 1: and in nineteen ninety one he presented He represented two guys,
Speaker 1: Carl Allison and Mark Urbanski. I think the former got
Speaker 1: different representation halfway through the trial, but he at first
Speaker 1: was representing both of them. At the end was representing
Speaker 1: at least Mark or Banski. Orbanski was the son of
Speaker 1: a Tampa Tribune executive. Both of these guys were privileged,
Speaker 1: like rich dudes, and they were accused of raping a
Speaker 1: woman that they met in a downtown nightclub. They were
Speaker 1: of course eventually both acquitted of the assault, and Vacaro
Speaker 1: was always in the news in this area, like he
Speaker 1: was always getting.
Speaker 3: In bar fights. He hired a bodyguard.
Speaker 1: The National Organization for Women picketed him because he was
Speaker 1: making this rape victim seem like a bad person, like
Speaker 1: he was just being a dick. And eventually he checked
Speaker 1: himself into a mental hospital after he sent a letter
Speaker 1: to the victim's attorney threatening to do him a Sicilian style.
Speaker 1: So after he mails a death threat to his opposing counsel,
Speaker 1: he checks himself into a mental hospital, and then after
Speaker 1: he gets out of the mental hospital, he opens his
Speaker 1: law office but quickly shudders it and he never really
Speaker 1: got back to law. He basically lived off the proceeds
Speaker 1: of other big cases that he had won and a
Speaker 1: settlement from a nightclub that he had won where he
Speaker 1: got into a fistfighter bar fight in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1: So he's just living the Tampa life now as a
Speaker 1: former lawyer who's like this colorful character in Tampa, you know,
Speaker 1: or Florida news. He's also very connected in Tampa and
Speaker 1: had all of these like judges and politicians are his friends.
Speaker 1: And he used to have these epic parties at his
Speaker 1: waterfront home, and then at one point in nineteen ninety two,
Speaker 1: he had a big party and he announced to all
Speaker 1: of his friends and people that he invited that he
Speaker 1: was gay, and that was a huge surprise to everybody.
Speaker 1: Nobody knew that he was really big into you know,
Speaker 1: Italian macho culture, and feared how this would be received.
Speaker 1: But a lot of his friends said that the coming
Speaker 1: out like really changed him. He was more laid back,
Speaker 1: more at peace, and so then in nineteen ninety four
Speaker 1: he sold the party house and he bought a townhouse,
Speaker 1: and he was simplifying his life. He was calming down
Speaker 1: on the partying, and he met and started dating Mark W.
Speaker 3: Johnson in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: They were both hot heads and they had party pasts
Speaker 1: and they fought a lot. But Johnson was Vaccaro's like
Speaker 1: first boyfriend, like his first love, and he was on
Speaker 1: a employed and so people were skeptical like that he
Speaker 1: was using Vacaro, but he took care of him, like
Speaker 1: had a drink waiting for him at home, and Vacara
Speaker 1: liked being taken care of. So they shared the townhouse
Speaker 1: for a year a little over a year until nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety four when Vacaro was shot to death, and Johnson
Speaker 1: is the one who did it. But what happened was
Speaker 1: I guess a few days earlier they'd fought and apparently
Speaker 1: split for the second time. Then the night of the murder,
Speaker 1: Johnson went out to a bunch of bars looking for Vacaro,
Speaker 1: being like.
Speaker 3: Where is he?
Speaker 1: But like one of them he they won't even let
Speaker 1: him in because he'd been banned for life for previous
Speaker 1: violent behavior. So these guys were just like tearing up
Speaker 1: Tampa at the time, or they had been a couple
Speaker 1: like a year or so earlier. Back at the townhouse
Speaker 1: that night, Vacara and Johnson had an argument that escalated
Speaker 1: into violence. According to the police, they fought over a
Speaker 1: three five seven Magnum revolver, which went off, and Vacara
Speaker 1: was shot once in the neck and died at the scene.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it was a murder per se.
Speaker 1: I do think it's seemed like it was an accident
Speaker 1: according to what the police said.
Speaker 3: Johnson's the one that called nine one one.
Speaker 1: He didn't try to cover it up or anything, and
Speaker 1: he was charged with an indictment. He was indicted with
Speaker 1: first degree premeditated murder, but a jury found him guilty
Speaker 1: of manslaughter with a firearm, like they found him guilty
Speaker 1: of a lesser charge.
Speaker 3: He did appeal.
Speaker 1: I found the appeal online, but then I can't figure
Speaker 1: out from all the legal mumbo jumbo, like what actually happens,
Speaker 1: Like I just found the appeal, so it's he was
Speaker 1: given like a few years in jail when he was
Speaker 1: originally convicted of manslaughter with a firearm, So it does
Speaker 1: sound like it was an accident, but I do think
Speaker 1: he should get some jail times. So I guess if
Speaker 1: anyone knows how to read legal briefs, please let me
Speaker 1: know how this turned out. But I was googling him,
Speaker 1: there's like nothing more recent about what happened to Mark W.
Speaker 3: Johnson after his appeal, So.
Speaker 1: Really sort of very lightly related in that it's about
Speaker 1: like a lawyer coming out as gay, but really not
Speaker 1: a lot else is related. But I thought the guy
Speaker 1: being sort of a Italian macho character also coming out
Speaker 1: to his community was interesting, and sadly he did he
Speaker 1: did not live so to you know, live his truth
Speaker 1: for longer than a couple of years. And that is
Speaker 1: that on that and don't go anywhere because we have
Speaker 1: an amazing guest today. Okay, our guest today is a
Speaker 1: prolific actor who has been in some major films and
Speaker 1: TV shows. Most recently, you may have seen him in
Speaker 1: Saw X or Saw ten. I don't really know how
Speaker 1: we're supposed to say that one, but he was also
Speaker 1: in classics like Waiting to Exhale and Soul Food, a
Speaker 1: regular on shows like Third Watch and Sons of Anarchy.
Speaker 1: You guys all know I'm a Sons of Anarchy head,
Speaker 1: but you know him today as the closeted murderer bronx
Speaker 1: Ada Andy Abbott. Guys, please enjoy our delightful convo with
Speaker 1: Michael Beach.
Speaker 5: Yay.
Speaker 1: Welcome, Michael, Yay.
Speaker 5: Michael Beach, Hello, Hello.
Speaker 1: We've been trying to get you for a while. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad our Ski finally linked up.
Speaker 5: I ducked and.
Speaker 8: Dodged as long as I This is a season five episode,
Speaker 8: just as I would say, S for You is really
Speaker 8: like taking flight, and everybody's getting super into the show.
Speaker 1: Did you like you had done Law and Order before?
Speaker 1: I think you had done regular Law and Order before
Speaker 1: you did this.
Speaker 5: I did the first one, like, uh, maybe in the
Speaker 5: second season of the first original Lawn.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you knew the dick Wolf universe.
Speaker 5: Yes, particularly now. Yeah, And I had been in New
Speaker 5: York because I was doing a show called Third Watch.
Speaker 5: I literally just finished that show and then maybe a
Speaker 5: couple of months later I did this episode.
Speaker 1: And so, like, they sent you over the script for this,
Speaker 1: and what were your thoughts initially.
Speaker 3: When you got it?
Speaker 1: Were you like, yes, I'm gonna play this closeted gay ada,
Speaker 1: Like this is juicy, like what you know?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I always look for juicy stuff, to
Speaker 5: be honest. I wanted to see Mariska again because I
Speaker 5: we we never worked on camera on er, but you know,
Speaker 5: we knew each other from that. And I was enjoying
Speaker 5: this show, you know, watching as a as a fan,
Speaker 5: and uh so I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I'd
Speaker 5: love to do it, you know, so regardless of what
Speaker 5: the you know, what the subject matter was. Uh And
Speaker 5: then of course reading it, it was just like icing
Speaker 5: on the cake because it was so juicy.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, twists and turns the very end.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and you.
Speaker 1: Have this like powerhouse scene with the woman that plays
Speaker 1: your wife, like at the end where like she's like
Speaker 1: begging you to let and you just like have this
Speaker 1: one like tear that goes down your face.
Speaker 5: Oh I got I got the Denzel one tier.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, you pulled her out.
Speaker 5: Well, let me tell you something. She was. She was fantastic,
Speaker 5: was very nervous because she was very new and I
Speaker 5: don't I can't remember her name, forgive me, but she
Speaker 5: hadn't done a lot of TV, so she didn't know
Speaker 5: about the camera, about the angles, about whether it's a
Speaker 5: close up or not. And even back then, today we
Speaker 5: shoot with two three four cameras all the time. Back
Speaker 5: then it wasn't you know, maybe you did two cameras,
Speaker 5: but you still have to worry about the master and
Speaker 5: the coverage and the close up stuff like that. Today
Speaker 5: it's a lot less of a concern because they almost
Speaker 5: all shoot at the same time on most shows. But
Speaker 5: so she was so nervous about you know, because at
Speaker 5: one point I told I remember telling her, oh, don't
Speaker 5: worry about it. It's on me, so you don't have
Speaker 5: to worry about that. So she started because we were shooting
Speaker 5: my side, so she started whispering well for some reason
Speaker 5: I can't remember, and just after the take, I had
Speaker 5: just gently said no you can, you could still, you know,
Speaker 5: give it to me, and she was, oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5: I said, no, no, no, no problem. It's just it's
Speaker 5: it's very you know if you have never done it
Speaker 5: or only done it a few times. Because everybody thinks, oh,
Speaker 5: I could be an actor. I could just yeah, you
Speaker 5: just memorize your lines and blah blah blah. But technically
Speaker 5: she didn't have much of a clue of what she
Speaker 5: was doing. But when she locked in as an actress,
Speaker 5: she was phenomenal. I mean I was. I was so
Speaker 5: impressed with her, and I just remember or that that
Speaker 5: particular scene how she really really found whatever she needed
Speaker 5: and she just she just hit a home run.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Her name was Bethany Butler. Bethany Butler.
Speaker 2: Do you have any memories from the beginning of your
Speaker 2: career when you were that person that like didn't realize
Speaker 2: something or just kind of things you look back on
Speaker 2: and laugh.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, I gotta say, for whatever
Speaker 5: reason without patting myself on the back, I don't know,
Speaker 5: but it just came to me, you know, because I
Speaker 5: remember my first audition and I had nothing on my
Speaker 5: resume except for school, right, and so the casting director
Speaker 5: looked at my resume and I went to Juilliard, and
Speaker 5: so she was totally not impressed. Right, it's just the same.
Speaker 3: Aren't people impressed with Juilliard?
Speaker 5: I think they usually they were back then. I have
Speaker 5: no idea about it now. But anyway, she she was
Speaker 5: not right, and and I hadn't said any words, so
Speaker 5: it wasn't like I came in and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I just came from Julia to you know, I didn't
Speaker 5: say shit, you know, and she said, okay, listen here
Speaker 5: in film and TV, we don't we don't do the
Speaker 5: big acting and the you know, blah blah blah. And
Speaker 5: I hadn't. I hadn't done anything yet, So I don't know.
Speaker 5: She just had this she had a foot up her
Speaker 5: ass about Juliard, I guess. So I said, okay, that's
Speaker 5: that's I get it. I get it, and uh, and
Speaker 5: you know, we did the scene and she was, you know,
Speaker 5: she was like, oh okay, okay, she you know, I
Speaker 5: did what she asked. I brought it down and this
Speaker 5: and that, and I ended up getting that job, and
Speaker 5: so I just kind of felt, I don't know, it
Speaker 5: just came to me really fast. About how the how
Speaker 5: the camera was intimate. You know, it was much more
Speaker 5: intimate than what you would normally feel on stage. And
Speaker 5: I just started doing In fact, I didn't do much
Speaker 5: theater for years, and I just jumped into film and
Speaker 5: TV and I learned pretty quickly the dudes and the
Speaker 5: don'ts and hitting your marks and all of that stuff,
Speaker 5: and how important the lighting is and make sure you
Speaker 5: don't lean out of your light. And obviously as the
Speaker 5: years have gone by, a lot of those details have
Speaker 5: have aren't as specific because they've opened it up. You know,
Speaker 5: the camera can can search for you more. The lightning
Speaker 5: is a little more friendly and warm as opposed to
Speaker 5: back then when it was like that's your mark, then
Speaker 5: on your mark, and you can't lean this way, Oh
Speaker 5: you can't leave that way.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's a lot more forgiving today.
Speaker 1: Wait, so you booked your first audition.
Speaker 5: I did. I booked my first audition, and it was
Speaker 5: the first and only time, thank god. But it was
Speaker 5: the first time I got fired from a job as well.
Speaker 5: I mean before I even I didn't go to set.
Speaker 5: I didn't even make it on the plane. You know.
Speaker 5: It was one of those things like, oh, we decided
Speaker 5: that we're gonna go another way with another look. You know,
Speaker 5: as I was at home packing my bag to fly
Speaker 5: to Florida. I was in New York, gonna fly to
Speaker 5: Florida to shoot this film, and got the call saying,
Speaker 5: you know that they were renigging and.
Speaker 3: Going another direction.
Speaker 5: Going another direction, my first little feel of Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Well it didn't stop you because you literally have been
Speaker 1: working NonStop for over thirty years.
Speaker 3: Thirty five years.
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, it's going to be forty years next year. Yeah,
Speaker 5: something like that.
Speaker 3: Crazy. Were you a theater kid?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 5: No, Actually I didn't start theater till my last year
Speaker 5: of high school. And that was because I was I
Speaker 5: was a football player who had hopes of playing in college,
Speaker 5: had a few decent colleges looking at me. I got
Speaker 5: hurt at the beginning or the end of my like
Speaker 5: the beginning of my junior year, and then that's.
Speaker 6: When I long story, I don't know if you want
Speaker 6: to hear a long story, but I got Somebody asked
Speaker 6: me if I would audition for a play, and I
Speaker 6: was like, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 5: Why would you ask me that? And I said no
Speaker 5: a few times and then I finally said yes, and
Speaker 5: I auditioned, and I fell in love. You know, I
Speaker 5: did a it was it was the diary of Anne Frank,
Speaker 5: you know, about the family hiding out in the Holocaust
Speaker 5: during hiding out in Germany during the Holocaust, which was
Speaker 5: odd for seventeen eighteen year old young black kid, but
Speaker 5: I did. And I fell in love with rehearsal and
Speaker 5: with exploring and asking all the questions about why this
Speaker 5: and why that, and how would you deal with this
Speaker 5: situation and deal with that? And from that, I just
Speaker 5: I auditioned for every play while I was still there.
Speaker 5: It's probably about a under a year, and uh, and
Speaker 5: I probably did maybe four or five plays, one musical
Speaker 5: and which and I never sang before either, so that
Speaker 5: was funny.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: And then and then auditioned for the theater schools and
Speaker 5: and got into them and was told I should go
Speaker 5: to Juilliard and I said, Okay, that's so cool and
Speaker 5: way less concussions, I would say, with that sway way less,
Speaker 5: way less.
Speaker 3: You have played like just like browsing through your thing.
Speaker 3: You've played in this year an eighty A.
Speaker 1: But and you've played like a ton of cops, lawyers,
Speaker 1: a f b I agent. Yeah, you're like a big
Speaker 1: law enforcement guy, do you love? But then also I'm
Speaker 1: a huge Sons of Anarchy fan where I know you
Speaker 1: from as well. So what's your what's your? It's kind
Speaker 1: of a like, do you prefer good guys or bad guys?
Speaker 1: But like, is are the bad guys so much more
Speaker 1: fun to play? That's what most people tell us, But.
Speaker 5: I think it's true because they're more complicated, you know,
Speaker 5: they have more meat to play with, you know, more grit,
Speaker 5: and you know, without in my opinion, you never see
Speaker 5: yourself as good or bad. You know you just you you.
Speaker 5: You have something you want and you're going for that
Speaker 5: right and then you have all your obstacles and you
Speaker 5: have the actions the way in which you go about
Speaker 5: getting what you want. And that's kind of that's why
Speaker 5: people either see you as good or bad because of
Speaker 5: the actions you take, in my opinion, and it's just
Speaker 5: usually more fun when the person has more obstacles to
Speaker 5: deal with. And I think as a good guy, you
Speaker 5: know you just you, you know you, I've gotta say this,
Speaker 5: so I've got to do that, and it's it's can
Speaker 5: be a little boring sometimes, you know, so, I mean
Speaker 5: it's always great if you can get a good guy
Speaker 5: who you know, has has some negative qualities.
Speaker 1: You know, I think this guy seems like he was
Speaker 1: a good guy right up until he killed someone, like
Speaker 1: the guy you play in this episode.
Speaker 9: You know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's kind of that kind of changes things when
Speaker 5: you kill somebody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that just crime of passion. Though, besides that,
Speaker 1: he seems like a good dad. You know, he's got
Speaker 1: a cute little kid. Wait, I have to ask you
Speaker 1: about another project that you're doing that just got the
Speaker 1: portrailer just came out.
Speaker 3: You're going to be in the Perfect Couple.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, we interviewed We interviewed the showrunner Jenna Lemia.
Speaker 5: On our own pod.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Meghan Fahi on Yes her episode of
Speaker 1: s view is.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's like phenomenal.
Speaker 1: But but like, yeah, this feels like it's going to
Speaker 1: be like the new hot family drama like water Polar.
Speaker 3: Show that everyone's going to be talking about.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just it's a limited series. It's only six episodes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're in all six. So what's your character?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, well I'm I'm the chief of police, okay,
Speaker 5: and so I'm the one investigating. There's a murder, and
Speaker 5: I'm the one we know. I think it's an accidental drowning,
Speaker 5: but there's basically a murder, and everyone in the show
Speaker 5: is a suspect, and and so I am investigating and
Speaker 5: questioning everyone trying to find out who the murderer is.
Speaker 1: And it's a family that has all these secrets, right,
Speaker 1: It's like this.
Speaker 5: Very wealthy Nantucket family. Nicole Kidman is the is the mom,
Speaker 5: and leav Schreibers the dad, and and then they have
Speaker 5: their kids and there's a there's a wedding going on
Speaker 5: or the day the wedding is happening, somebody is yea,
Speaker 5: and then the whole show is about trying to figure
Speaker 5: out who that person is.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see it. And the coda Fannings
Speaker 1: in this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Kota Fanning, Yeah, it's got it. It's a great cast.
Speaker 5: It's got like a really strong group of young actors
Speaker 5: who are phenomenal.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, Kara texted me, yeah, to remind me because
Speaker 2: when we interviewed the writer the Writer's Show, she was like,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of working on something, like I'm trying to
Speaker 2: write this thing.
Speaker 3: And then to see the trailer.
Speaker 1: That was because we interviewed her like a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, like Pandemic was like winding down, but she'd
Speaker 1: been kind of like, you know, working on this adaptation
Speaker 1: of like a beach Read. And then I saw the
Speaker 1: commercial and I was like, this sounds familiar. And then
Speaker 1: when I was look, hey, you're on IMDb, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: and we're talking to Michael be like right, all as
Speaker 1: the trailers coming out, we're getting all this all this
Speaker 1: perfect couple.
Speaker 2: Goss, this is awesome. Obviously you were excited to see Marishka.
Speaker 2: Did you were you? Did you have any memories with
Speaker 2: either Iced Tea or Christopher Maloney or just any memories
Speaker 2: from the set.
Speaker 5: No, just you know, iced Ty and I talked a
Speaker 5: little bit, not much, and I remember having fun with
Speaker 5: Mariska and Chris because you know, it was one of
Speaker 5: those things where and they're very cool with their guest stars.
Speaker 5: That show is very cool with their guest stars. But
Speaker 5: a lot of times when guest stars come on and
Speaker 5: they mess up something or you know, and I I
Speaker 5: just know this from when they come on shows I've
Speaker 5: been regulars on that. You know, this is why you
Speaker 5: really have to you have to kind of help no
Speaker 5: matter what, you gotta kind of help guests along, right,
Speaker 5: because they're nervous. You know. Obviously if you're very new,
Speaker 5: you could be nervous, but even if a seasoned person
Speaker 5: can be nervous coming on a big show. And oftentimes guests,
Speaker 5: especially if they're the main guest or you know, one
Speaker 5: or two of the main guests, they have a lot
Speaker 5: of stuff to do because it's their story that you're
Speaker 5: trying to pick apart, right, So I just remember them,
Speaker 5: you know, whenever you flub on the line, like I have.
Speaker 5: If we're doing a walk and talk, so the the
Speaker 5: guy's got a steady cam on his back and they're
Speaker 5: either pulling you so they're in front of you, or
Speaker 5: they're pushing you so they're following you. Right. In this
Speaker 5: particular case, I had a lot of the dialogue and
Speaker 5: they're they're pushing us, so they're behind us, and I'm
Speaker 5: in the front and Mariska and Crista behind me and
Speaker 5: the camera's following us, and I'm talking. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 5: blah blah blah, I'm grabbing shit here, grabbing shit there,
Speaker 5: talk talk talk, And I just remember, uh, flubbing on
Speaker 5: my lines, but instead of talking, instead of stopping, I
Speaker 5: just said some ship. And then Mariska came in with
Speaker 5: her line and Chris came in, and then we were
Speaker 5: able to just pick it, pick up and keep going
Speaker 5: and you know, and and so after the after the take,
Speaker 5: you know, Mariska and Chris are like, man, it's so
Speaker 5: good to work with somebody who knows that you just
Speaker 5: keep going, you know, especially for the shot right because
Speaker 5: if they were pulling us, it's different because now my
Speaker 5: face is on camera, and so if I mess up
Speaker 5: and it's and it's really noticeable, you can't cut into
Speaker 5: that because because the because of the movement of the camera,
Speaker 5: you know, and but they're not, so you can just
Speaker 5: keep going and it's still usable footage, you know. So
Speaker 5: stuff like that where you know, I mean, that's one
Speaker 5: of the things I remember. But they you know, just
Speaker 5: how it's so fun to be able to come into
Speaker 5: another persons show and you know, just just feel good
Speaker 5: and be accepted and go, oh, well we we.
Speaker 7: We appreciate you being here and and you know, bringing
Speaker 7: whatever whatever skill set I have and stuff like that,
Speaker 7: and a few few things like that with the with
Speaker 7: with her and Chris that's so.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you talked about it.
Speaker 2: The first note on my page before it says walk
Speaker 2: In talks because he looked you were like carrying boxes,
Speaker 2: there were sheets, you were going from one room to
Speaker 2: the hallway, and it was yeah, it was noticing.
Speaker 5: It's probably it's probably that scene, Yeah, in my office.
Speaker 5: I think you mentioned.
Speaker 2: Even if you're seasoned, sometimes being a guest star on
Speaker 2: a show, you do get like nervous. Do you remember
Speaker 2: any in particular that you were more nervous than others
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 5: I'm always nervous, to be honest with you. Yeah, the
Speaker 5: nerves don't go away. You just learn how to fenagle
Speaker 5: them a little better, you know. But in general, I'm
Speaker 5: always I like to prepare my ass off because you
Speaker 5: never know. A lot of times you just don't know,
Speaker 5: especially if you don't know the act or but believe
Speaker 5: it or not, there are times when the main cast
Speaker 5: or some of the main casts are not warm and
Speaker 5: friendly and inviting, and they don't care what you've done
Speaker 5: or haven't done, or that you're here on this show
Speaker 5: or whatever, and maybe they're having a bad day or whatever.
Speaker 5: Who knows, So you just have to be ready. You
Speaker 5: have to be prepared, and so I make it a
Speaker 5: I make it a habit to particularly on my first
Speaker 5: day of a show when I'm if I'm doing a recurring,
Speaker 5: I don't usually anymore do like a one episode thing,
Speaker 5: but I will. I don't know, it depends, but in general,
Speaker 5: like I do large recurrings or regular but if it's
Speaker 5: a show I really like and say, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: let's go on that. But I gotta be ready. I
Speaker 5: gotta be prepared because just by the nature of this business,
Speaker 5: something is going to happen. Yeah, and it's gonna pull
Speaker 5: your attention or it's gonna you know, the main guy
Speaker 5: is late and you have less time to do the
Speaker 5: scene and whatever. You know, there's noise there. You know,
Speaker 5: the sets are run differently, blah blah blah. So if
Speaker 5: you have a lot of dialogue or something deep or heavy,
Speaker 5: it's just smart to be ready so that you don't
Speaker 5: get thrown by either a small thing or a multitude
Speaker 5: of small things or something big. You know. So I'm
Speaker 5: I'm yeah, I haven't gotten over nervousness. I think I
Speaker 5: deal with it well, but I still have it. I
Speaker 5: still feel it, you know, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's somebody has to like send a memo to like
Speaker 1: all the number one on all the call sheets and
Speaker 1: be like, if you just act like Murushka Hargete, you're
Speaker 1: gonna be on for twenty five seasons, you know exactly.
Speaker 5: So it really does it really does matter, not just
Speaker 5: to guess people, but if you know, I've been on
Speaker 5: shows where you know, let's say there's eight regulars, right,
Speaker 5: and so the crew either knows they're going to have
Speaker 5: a good day or a bad day based on whatever number,
Speaker 5: because you know, the number one guy two, three on
Speaker 5: the call sheet, right, the call sheet lists all the
Speaker 5: actors and and and in order, and so they're really
Speaker 5: known as number one or two or four or five
Speaker 5: or whatever. And so if you know, if you're on
Speaker 5: the crew and you know, like number five has three
Speaker 5: scenes today and that person never knows their lines or
Speaker 5: doesn't hit their marks or is always complaining about the
Speaker 5: writing or whatever it is, so you know the crew,
Speaker 5: so obviously the guest actor is gonna be in for
Speaker 5: a little trouble, but the crew knows, oh shit, okay,
Speaker 5: so what could have been a ten hour day is
Speaker 5: now going to be a thirteen hour day. You know,
Speaker 5: or if it's a number two and they know Number
Speaker 5: two knows their lines. They you know that they're going
Speaker 5: to be friendly and warm and da da da. So
Speaker 5: we're doing it. We're doing a ten hour day, maybe
Speaker 5: a nine hour day, you know.
Speaker 1: And that trickles down to everybody's happiness exactly.
Speaker 5: That's the whole point, right, And it's like, why are
Speaker 5: we You know, if you have problems with the script
Speaker 5: or the scenes or whatever, and especially if you're a regular,
Speaker 5: you need to deal with that shit before you come
Speaker 5: to the set, not when you get to the set,
Speaker 5: because now you're wasting everybody's time, and you can actually
Speaker 5: have some discussion and some time to figure it out
Speaker 5: and work it out so that you come to the
Speaker 5: set happy because you're like, oh, I understand this, I
Speaker 5: understand that, and I wanted to try this, and I
Speaker 5: thought this line could be and you and you worked
Speaker 5: it out with the writers before you came to set,
Speaker 5: and so now things can move. But if you just
Speaker 5: come to the set to complain about that, you just
Speaker 5: wasted everybody's time.
Speaker 1: Oh I bet you could really name names. One hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy seventy credits. You could really name some names
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear it. I feel like you've dropped
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons for everyone listening. Yeah, really insightful stuff.
Speaker 5: Well, I love, I love, I love what I do.
Speaker 5: I really do. I mean, I really enjoy it. I
Speaker 5: feel I feel privileged to be able to still be
Speaker 5: doing it, and it's yeah, I'm I'm definitely grateful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and your career shows it. I know this has
Speaker 1: all been amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and we can't wait to watch you know,
Speaker 2: the perfect, perfect.
Speaker 9: Couple, perfect couple, perfect cuple and don't forget about you
Speaker 9: know right now still Mayor of Kingstown is on Paramount Plus.
Speaker 5: We have I think three more episodes left and that's all.
Speaker 5: That's a blast. That was a great show to be on. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and also on Paramount Plus. I think The Perfect Couple
Speaker 5: comes out September fifth on Netflix, and then on September fifteen,
Speaker 5: season two of Tulsa king with Sliced Alone, which I
Speaker 5: did season one in season two, and that that comes
Speaker 5: out on Paramount Plus as well.
Speaker 1: So got so many, so many irons in the fire, Michael,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that our schedules finally lined up. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you could take the time, we really really
Speaker 1: appreciate it.
Speaker 3: I was obsessed with him inspiring as.
Speaker 2: Fuck, so great, so great, what a great stuff. And
Speaker 2: I actually brought him up to you know, I've been
Speaker 2: talking about him. I really liked him, but I brought
Speaker 2: him up to Clark and he is here. He knew exactly,
Speaker 2: and we started doing impressions of him, like he is
Speaker 2: an icon and a hero, and it just felt like,
Speaker 2: I just feel special we get to talk to such
Speaker 2: great people like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, he was great and he is somebody that
Speaker 1: we like. We had it said and then it got
Speaker 1: moved and then like, so we're just happy that our
Speaker 1: everybody was able to be patient and wait for it
Speaker 1: to come together so we could talk to him.
Speaker 2: But he was I just felt like I knew that
Speaker 2: Walk and Talk was special, and then him bringing it
Speaker 2: up like that, that meant a lot to me because
Speaker 2: it looked hard.
Speaker 3: It looked hard. It was hard, a hard.
Speaker 1: One, but looked hard. SVU is like walk and Talk
Speaker 1: like boot camp. For like, if you want to later
Speaker 1: go be on an Aaron Sorkin show, probably you like
Speaker 1: have to be in an SVU and do it walk
Speaker 1: and Talk and then you can be in one of
Speaker 1: his shows. But damn, I mean, we've been doing it
Speaker 1: feels like a lot of AIDS related content lately, because
Speaker 1: the show really did tackle a lot of AIDS related
Speaker 1: content because it came about in the late nineties, and
Speaker 1: I think it was just like it. I mean, it
Speaker 1: still is obviously an important topic of conversation, but back
Speaker 1: in the I don't know, there was just more panic
Speaker 1: around it, and then in the late nineties and the
Speaker 1: two thousands, and I think the show definitely mined a
Speaker 1: lot of that, but also interesting, It was interesting to
Speaker 1: read about this whole down low thing because I just
Speaker 1: don't know if it's real or not, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Like, I think it was definitely a real
Speaker 1: thing that this guy like reported on, but like reporters
Speaker 1: are always like putting spins on it.
Speaker 3: And Oprah talked to like a guy who wrote a
Speaker 3: whole book.
Speaker 1: About this, you know, And so I think it is real,
Speaker 1: But what is you know, the coconut tree?
Speaker 3: What is the context of what was happening around?
Speaker 1: Are we trying to paint black people as like HIV
Speaker 1: predator super spreadators in this situation?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm kind of hesitant to be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is an actual phenomenon that was happening.
Speaker 2: No, this is this is a thing with straight men period.
Speaker 2: Like the Connecticut they just the Connecticut men just have
Speaker 2: a different name for it, like this is just you know,
Speaker 2: I told you that this is what I would see
Speaker 2: in Chicago, where it's you know, they're calling it the
Speaker 2: down low and they have their own kind of homophobia
Speaker 2: to deal with as a culture, and then we have
Speaker 2: our own and I don't know what it's called when
Speaker 2: all the straight Connecticut daddies come to New York to
Speaker 2: get their dick sucked.
Speaker 3: Well, you know what.
Speaker 1: I was just talking to a friend recently at a
Speaker 1: brunch with a bunch of people that I know from Connecticut,
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, I know people who guys
Speaker 1: come out to Connecticut for that. They come out like
Speaker 1: a guest house. Okay, yeah, I don't know what where's happening,
Speaker 1: what's going on? But because we were talking about it,
Speaker 1: we went to high school together in a Connecticut town.
Speaker 1: We're like, oh, do you think like a lot of
Speaker 1: the there were any like closeted dads like where we
Speaker 1: And my friend was like, oh, I know exactly who
Speaker 1: the closeted dads were like I could tell you like
Speaker 1: this one girl was saying that. I was like, no way,
Speaker 1: and I was saying, oh for me, the dads were
Speaker 1: just invisible growing up, Like I never met any dads.
Speaker 3: I only met moms. But but like.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and my friend who is a gay guy,
Speaker 1: I was like, I know guys who go out on
Speaker 1: Metro North for a little you know, a little a
Speaker 1: little straight daddy.
Speaker 3: How's it going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I don't think it's spun it like the
Speaker 1: black community are AIDS spreaders.
Speaker 2: I think it's like, you know, denial. They don't even
Speaker 2: think they're gay. Like but also so like it just
Speaker 2: seems silly, like I'm not going to bring condoms because
Speaker 2: then you're admitting what you're doing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like so much shame and swirling around in that.
Speaker 2: Like I don't think he thought he gave it to
Speaker 2: his wife, you know, I don't think he didn't tell
Speaker 2: her on purpose. Like I don't think it's it's not
Speaker 2: like that other episode that we covered the rooftop where
Speaker 2: the guy was purposely infecting young girls with AIDS.
Speaker 3: It's a couple of episodes like that.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's another one where it's like a
Speaker 1: white guy doing it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean spreading aids is uh sees no color.
Speaker 3: Anyone can do that, anyone, Yes, yes, But.
Speaker 1: I think it's a real thing. I think it's all
Speaker 1: not fair.
Speaker 2: People have to hide and not be who they are
Speaker 2: and do all these weird games and kill their friends. Also,
Speaker 2: if you're going to set up someone, you got to
Speaker 2: smear the lipstick on that condom, Like that is a
Speaker 2: lesson for sure. That God, you just you think you
Speaker 2: know it all and it's like this one that that
Speaker 2: to me was.
Speaker 1: The ringer for me, Like I know that I would
Speaker 1: be like setting up a crime that I've just committed.
Speaker 1: I'd be like setting it up. Then I'm like asleep
Speaker 1: two days later and I wake up in the middle.
Speaker 1: Then eyes fly open and I'm like, I didn't see
Speaker 1: lipstick on the condom, Like I know, I would like
Speaker 1: remember that later, you know. It's like you just remember
Speaker 1: that one little thing we were.
Speaker 2: Like fuck like so well, I'm like fighting every urge
Speaker 2: right now. So I have this E six thousand glue
Speaker 2: and it's like very intense glue.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: My friend was telling me about that yesterday she said
Speaker 1: that like shit like literally causes like birth defects and
Speaker 1: you have to like use it outside. She's like, this
Speaker 1: shit's like we were talking about super glue, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I use superglue so much
Speaker 1: to fix all the shit that my kids break, and
Speaker 1: she goes, oh, I use the E six thousand or whatever.
Speaker 3: But it's like it's like bad for you. She said,
Speaker 3: maybe it's different. Is that like a super super super
Speaker 3: glue or.
Speaker 2: Is that just as like flexible I put it. No,
Speaker 2: it's because my handle on my fridge broke and I
Speaker 2: put it on there too. Y. It's a flexible industrial
Speaker 2: strength adhesive.
Speaker 1: She said. It will literally glue like glass to metal.
Speaker 1: Like it's like really really like fucking hardcore. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I love it. It just takes long time to dry.
Speaker 2: But I've been picking on the like what is this
Speaker 2: metal tip called on like this part and all it
Speaker 2: had all those dried glues, So I've been having a
Speaker 2: fun time like trying to pick off the thick layers
Speaker 2: of it. And I am holding it and playing with
Speaker 2: it right now, and I obviously want to put it
Speaker 2: into my candle and burn it, but I think that
Speaker 2: would be scary and I'm not going to That's what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about it because I just I had a
Speaker 2: vision of me doing it and then you guys just
Speaker 2: seeing like ah explosion and.
Speaker 1: The glass well like and my friend like just told
Speaker 1: me it's like toxic and bad for you.
Speaker 3: So I don't think you should be burning in your
Speaker 3: own I know not to.
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you the arge, yes, yes, the odd
Speaker 1: natural urge to want to burn a toxic chemical in
Speaker 1: your candle. I get it.
Speaker 3: I get it anyway with this, I just like love
Speaker 3: this glue. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I can't believe it says that toxic, but I can
Speaker 2: believe it. I can't believe it.
Speaker 1: I mean, please, what's not toxic these days? Okay, let's
Speaker 1: move on. Huh to what would sister Peg do?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards
Speaker 1: an organization.
Speaker 3: Or a blog post.
Speaker 1: I always say blog posts, Like what am I like
Speaker 1: living in tumbler world of two thousand and three? You
Speaker 1: saying blog posts is like when I say nightclubbing. Yes, totally,
Speaker 1: totally I'm going to go blog post in a nightclub.
Speaker 1: But it's you know, we just give you more information
Speaker 1: about what we talked about today, or send you to
Speaker 1: an organization that we'll have more information where you can donate,
Speaker 1: read more, et cetera. And I wanted to point you
Speaker 1: guys to the National Black Justice Collective, which we first
Speaker 1: came to know about through a queen on drag Race
Speaker 1: called Angeria who we love Injuria?
Speaker 3: What is it Injeria?
Speaker 1: Paris some Michaels van Michaels, that's right, And it's a
Speaker 1: civil rights organization dedicated to the empowerment of black LGBTQ
Speaker 1: plus people, including people living with HIV AIDS, through coalition building,
Speaker 1: federal policy change, research, and education. Their mission is to
Speaker 1: end racism, homophobia, and LGBTQ plus bias and stigma. For
Speaker 1: more information on how you can get involved and take
Speaker 1: action with this group, head over to NBJC dot org.
Speaker 1: And as always, that will be in our show notes
Speaker 1: that will be shared as a story the day this
Speaker 1: episode comes out and then saved forever in our WWSPD highlights.
Speaker 3: Damn.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that. And if you'd like
Speaker 2: to continue on this journey with us, which you better,
Speaker 2: We're going to be doing Shattered next week from season eleven,
Speaker 2: episode twenty four get with it or obsessed with everyone,
Speaker 2: and thanks and hopefully it didn't say anything too crazy,
Speaker 2: because I do feel delirious.
Speaker 1: Talk to you later, guys, bye e.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 1: At glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes
Speaker 1: for sources and more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.
Speaker 1: Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and.
Speaker 2: To Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen
Speaker 2: Andrews for our artwork.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff,
Speaker 1: Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media dot dum