1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:33,886 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The Channel Islands have the kind of stark, pristine 2 00:00:33,926 --> 00:00:38,026 Speaker 1: beauty that makes people fall in love with California. Santa 3 00:00:38,046 --> 00:00:41,066 Speaker 1: Cruz Island is probably the most stunning in the archipelago. 4 00:00:41,806 --> 00:00:45,006 Speaker 1: About 30 miles due west of Malibu, it's surrounded by 5 00:00:45,106 --> 00:00:50,546 Speaker 1: glassy indigo water, giant kelp forests, and tide pools. But 6 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,216 Speaker 1: probably the island's most fascinating feature, the one that draws 7 00:00:54,296 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 1: kayakers and scuba divers from all over, is its abundance 8 00:00:58,016 --> 00:01:01,956 Speaker 1: of sea caves, with names like Shipwreck Cave and Limbo. 9 00:01:03,936 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 1: On the north side of the island, a couple hundred 10 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:09,496 Speaker 1: feet into the ocean, there's a huge white spattered rock 11 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:13,366 Speaker 1: with a sheer cliff face. It's called Bird Rock for 12 00:01:13,426 --> 00:01:18,256 Speaker 1: obvious reasons. Bird Rock has its own sea cave, a 13 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:21,116 Speaker 1: tall chamber with walls that are covered in green algae. 14 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:25,776 Speaker 1: It's mysterious and cool, but once you know the story 15 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 1: of Fred Raylor, it's impossible to look at the sea 16 00:01:29,056 --> 00:01:32,556 Speaker 1: cave or any part of this beautiful island the same 17 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: way again. On January 2, 1981, Raylor, a 38-year-old man 18 00:01:39,866 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: from Malibu, was pulled out of the water on the 19 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: open ocean side of Bird Rock, along with his wife, 20 00:01:45,536 --> 00:01:51,116 Speaker 1: 36-year-old Verna Johnson Raylor, and her son, his stepson, 8-year-old 21 00:01:51,296 --> 00:01:56,336 Speaker 1: Doug Johnson. Verna and Doug were soon declared dead. Fred 22 00:01:56,386 --> 00:02:01,146 Speaker 1: was cold, but other than that, fine. His pulse was steady, 23 00:02:01,386 --> 00:02:06,416 Speaker 1: his breathing was normal. He appeared to be unscathed. Fred 24 00:02:06,426 --> 00:02:10,296 Speaker 1: said their rowboat, a 16-foot orange dory, had overturned, and 25 00:02:10,316 --> 00:02:13,576 Speaker 1: he had done everything possible to save his wife and stepchild. 26 00:02:14,496 --> 00:02:17,956 Speaker 1: He was the sole survivor and the only witness. 27 00:02:22,226 --> 00:02:25,226 Speaker 2: For many, many months, we were just trying to figure 28 00:02:25,326 --> 00:02:31,516 Speaker 2: out what happened, and is there any truth to Raylor's story? 29 00:02:32,696 --> 00:02:36,606 Speaker 1: That's a criminalist named Dr. Dwayne Mosey, At the time 30 00:02:36,646 --> 00:02:39,426 Speaker 1: of Verna and Doug's deaths, he worked for a California 31 00:02:39,466 --> 00:02:40,366 Speaker 1: state crime lab. 32 00:02:41,106 --> 00:02:43,486 Speaker 2: And eventually we decided there was no truth to it 33 00:02:43,546 --> 00:02:51,006 Speaker 2: at all. We could not substantiate anything he said, but 34 00:02:51,046 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 2: we could substantiate alternatives. And as I saw all this 35 00:02:57,016 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 2: going on, it all came together in my head as 36 00:03:02,016 --> 00:03:02,696 Speaker 2: a story. 37 00:03:05,906 --> 00:03:06,186 Speaker 3: Dr. 38 00:03:06,226 --> 00:03:10,186 Speaker 1: Mose is an expert in crime scene reconstruction. When he 39 00:03:10,246 --> 00:03:13,066 Speaker 1: found out about the sea cave inside Bird Rock, he 40 00:03:13,106 --> 00:03:14,066 Speaker 1: wanted to investigate. 41 00:03:14,086 --> 00:03:17,856 Speaker 2: I said, I want to go inside. And I looked 42 00:03:17,896 --> 00:03:22,336 Speaker 2: around at the rocks, the height of the cave, and 43 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:24,816 Speaker 2: that's when another piece of the puzzle fell in place. 44 00:03:25,816 --> 00:03:27,856 Speaker 2: That's when I turned to the people in the boat 45 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:31,376 Speaker 2: and I said, this is where it happened. It did 46 00:03:31,436 --> 00:03:33,486 Speaker 2: not happen out there in the ocean. It happened in 47 00:03:33,526 --> 00:03:34,006 Speaker 2: this cave. 48 00:03:35,016 --> 00:03:38,336 Speaker 1: The cave, he said, was spacious and secluded. 49 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:43,736 Speaker 2: And it's tall and narrow. It's tall enough so that 50 00:03:43,776 --> 00:03:48,296 Speaker 2: a man can take a oar to a rowboat, swing 51 00:03:48,336 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 2: it high, and bring it down on an object with 52 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:55,836 Speaker 2: some force. My theory is that he rowed the boat 53 00:03:55,936 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 2: into this cave with the intention of killing. 54 00:03:59,176 --> 00:03:59,676 Speaker 4: Both of them. 55 00:04:00,706 --> 00:04:03,546 Speaker 1: He would have started with Verna, catching her off guard. 56 00:04:04,396 --> 00:04:07,336 Speaker 2: Verna was in the bow and Douglas was in the stern, 57 00:04:08,456 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 2: and Raylor was sitting where a rower would normally sit, 58 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:17,836 Speaker 2: and he was in the middle. So while Verna would 59 00:04:17,856 --> 00:04:20,876 Speaker 2: be looking forward to defend the bow of the boat 60 00:04:20,936 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 2: against the rocks, Raylor could easily pick up an oar, 61 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:26,206 Speaker 2: swing it, hit her on the head. 62 00:04:27,206 --> 00:04:28,946 Speaker 1: Then he would have turned to Doug. 63 00:04:29,646 --> 00:04:34,106 Speaker 2: I believe that Douglas Johnson sprang from the stern of 64 00:04:34,146 --> 00:04:40,606 Speaker 2: the dory onto Raylor in an attempt to protect his mother. 65 00:04:41,806 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 2: And I believe that Raylor took Douglas by the head, 66 00:04:47,216 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 2: slammed the back of his head twice into the edge 67 00:04:52,456 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 2: of the seat, where the seat met the inside surface 68 00:04:56,156 --> 00:04:56,696 Speaker 2: of the hull. 69 00:04:59,206 --> 00:05:05,916 Speaker 1: Verna was petite, 115 pounds. Doug, only 50-something. Fred was 70 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:09,256 Speaker 1: 6 feet 2, 195 first thing in the morning. He 71 00:05:09,276 --> 00:05:13,136 Speaker 1: could have easily overpowered them, knocking them out, Mose says, 72 00:05:13,536 --> 00:05:14,696 Speaker 1: so he could finish them off. 73 00:05:15,666 --> 00:05:20,026 Speaker 2: He then threw, pushed, or carried both of them overboard 74 00:05:20,466 --> 00:05:26,486 Speaker 2: and drowned them. He then exited the cave, and it 75 00:05:26,506 --> 00:05:28,866 Speaker 2: would have been difficult to get both bodies back in 76 00:05:28,886 --> 00:05:31,216 Speaker 2: the boat, so I think he pushed the boat out 77 00:05:31,256 --> 00:05:35,506 Speaker 2: of the cave, and then took the two bodies and 78 00:05:35,606 --> 00:05:38,186 Speaker 2: swam around to the other side of Bird Rock where 79 00:05:38,246 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 2: he was found and taken out of the water by 80 00:05:43,176 --> 00:05:45,096 Speaker 2: the people on this boat that was passing by. It 81 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 2: explained so much. Explained all the damage to the hull 82 00:05:50,376 --> 00:05:54,906 Speaker 2: of the Dory. Explained why there was no witnesses to 83 00:05:54,946 --> 00:05:59,366 Speaker 2: what went on. It just made it easier to do 84 00:05:59,406 --> 00:06:02,666 Speaker 2: what he did. By the way, the oars for the 85 00:06:02,726 --> 00:06:07,306 Speaker 2: dory were never recovered. They were lost somewhere, somehow in 86 00:06:07,346 --> 00:06:07,786 Speaker 2: the ocean. 87 00:06:09,146 --> 00:06:13,276 Speaker 1: But this is just a story, albeit a powerful, persuasive one. 88 00:06:14,116 --> 00:06:15,616 Speaker 1: It's a story that a lot of people have come 89 00:06:15,656 --> 00:06:19,176 Speaker 1: to believe is true. It's a story that helped send 90 00:06:19,276 --> 00:06:25,756 Speaker 1: Fred Raylor to prison. But Fred's story, that he was 91 00:06:25,816 --> 00:06:28,186 Speaker 1: trying as hard as he could to save his wife 92 00:06:28,246 --> 00:06:32,046 Speaker 1: and stepson... that he was a rescuer, not a murderer. 93 00:06:32,866 --> 00:06:36,826 Speaker 1: His story has a few supporters, too. To this day, 94 00:06:38,206 --> 00:06:43,986 Speaker 1: I do not believe he did this. That's Verna's sister, Julianne. 95 00:06:44,786 --> 00:06:48,046 Speaker 1: Verna's mother went to her grave convinced of Fred's innocence. 96 00:06:48,866 --> 00:06:52,106 Speaker 1: And Verna's daughter, Kim, who lost not only her mother, 97 00:06:52,566 --> 00:06:55,926 Speaker 1: but also her little brother, Doug, she believes Fred, too. 98 00:06:56,966 --> 00:07:01,066 Speaker 1: So do his two daughters, Heidi and Kirsten. They all 99 00:07:01,126 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 1: maintain that Verna and Doug died in a tragic accident. 100 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,836 Speaker 1: And it's not just the family. There are legal experts 101 00:07:08,896 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: who believe Fred's case was a miscarriage of justice. This 102 00:07:12,716 --> 00:07:17,106 Speaker 1: is Justin Brooks, director of the California Innocence Project. Well, 103 00:07:17,166 --> 00:07:19,086 Speaker 1: it looked to me like the kind of case where 104 00:07:19,166 --> 00:07:23,796 Speaker 1: a person was convicted based on bias. This summer, I 105 00:07:23,816 --> 00:07:27,776 Speaker 1: got access to an archive of recorded interviews, investigation reports, 106 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: and court filings. They led me into a forgotten world, Malibu, 107 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:37,666 Speaker 1: in the late 70s and early 80s, when the consummate 108 00:07:37,746 --> 00:07:43,346 Speaker 1: family man was accused of horrible crimes. And Malibu itself 109 00:07:44,586 --> 00:07:51,736 Speaker 1: was the motive. I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. 110 00:07:54,246 --> 00:08:02,656 Speaker 5: This is season two, Dead in the Water. Episode one, 111 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:06,656 Speaker 5: Dead in the Water. 112 00:08:23,626 --> 00:08:30,256 Speaker 1: Mr. Malibu. Fred Raylor is an inmate at the California 113 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:34,396 Speaker 1: State Prison in Lancaster. He's serving a life sentence without 114 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 1: the possibility of parole for the murders of his wife, Verna, 115 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,816 Speaker 1: and his stepson, Doug. For the past few months, he's 116 00:08:41,856 --> 00:08:45,456 Speaker 1: been calling me most days, usually at 8.30 a.m. sharp, 117 00:08:45,916 --> 00:08:47,776 Speaker 1: just after I've dropped off my kids at school. 118 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 6: Good morning. 119 00:08:49,696 --> 00:08:50,656 Speaker 1: Hi, Fred. How are you? 120 00:08:51,256 --> 00:08:51,756 Speaker 7: Good, thanks. 121 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: His daughter, Kirsten, put us in touch. She's 47, the 122 00:08:55,956 --> 00:08:58,356 Speaker 1: youngest of the sisters, and she doesn't have a family 123 00:08:58,376 --> 00:09:01,596 Speaker 1: of her own. She's devoted her adult life to freeing 124 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:05,206 Speaker 1: her father. In the time since I started talking to Fred, 125 00:09:05,466 --> 00:09:08,526 Speaker 1: he's been given a diagnosis of kidney cancer, and the 126 00:09:08,586 --> 00:09:11,626 Speaker 1: project of getting him released has become even more urgent 127 00:09:11,666 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: for his kids. Fred has told his story a thousand 128 00:09:15,626 --> 00:09:18,856 Speaker 1: and one times. He's written it down, recorded it into 129 00:09:18,896 --> 00:09:21,596 Speaker 1: a polygraph machine, sworn to it on the witness stand, 130 00:09:22,096 --> 00:09:25,816 Speaker 1: committed it to memory. So the story has a plotting quality, 131 00:09:26,216 --> 00:09:28,446 Speaker 1: like an old horse that's been led around the ring 132 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:34,126 Speaker 1: too many times. On January 2nd, 1981, the family set 133 00:09:34,206 --> 00:09:38,686 Speaker 1: out early from Ventura Harbor on Perseverance, their 50-foot sailboat. 134 00:09:39,506 --> 00:09:41,976 Speaker 1: It was a Friday, the first weekend of the new year. 135 00:09:43,376 --> 00:09:46,456 Speaker 1: Much of Fred's extended family was on board, his mother 136 00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 1: and father and his brother and sister-in-law who were visiting 137 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:53,006 Speaker 1: from Indiana for the holidays. His wife, Verna, the four 138 00:09:53,066 --> 00:09:56,446 Speaker 1: kids they had between them, ages 6 to 11, and 139 00:09:56,486 --> 00:10:01,506 Speaker 1: the family dog, a six-month-old beagle puppy named Lady. They 140 00:10:01,576 --> 00:10:06,736 Speaker 1: crossed the channel to Santa Cruz Island. Verna steered Perseverance 141 00:10:06,796 --> 00:10:09,856 Speaker 1: into the anchorage to the east of Bird Rock. around noon. 142 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:13,976 Speaker 1: They had lunch. Then Fred's brother and his wife took 143 00:10:14,016 --> 00:10:16,896 Speaker 1: an inflatable dinghy to the island, bringing the two older 144 00:10:16,936 --> 00:10:20,966 Speaker 1: girls with them. Kirsten was only six, and she was 145 00:10:21,026 --> 00:10:23,806 Speaker 1: told to stay back with her grandparents and take a nap. 146 00:10:25,246 --> 00:10:29,366 Speaker 1: That left Fred, Verna, and Doug... Fred says an idea 147 00:10:29,446 --> 00:10:30,526 Speaker 1: popped into Verna's head. 148 00:10:31,386 --> 00:10:35,386 Speaker 6: We had the puppy aboard for the first time. And 149 00:10:35,466 --> 00:10:40,006 Speaker 6: Verna suggested that we go out and maybe take some 150 00:10:40,046 --> 00:10:44,186 Speaker 6: pictures with the dog and Douglas and the boat and things. 151 00:10:45,486 --> 00:10:48,996 Speaker 1: Verna, he says, had a specific shot in mind. Doug 152 00:10:49,096 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 1: holding Lady in front of Bird Rock with Perseverance in 153 00:10:52,216 --> 00:10:57,076 Speaker 1: the deep background. So Fred, Verna, Doug, and Lady piled 154 00:10:57,116 --> 00:11:00,506 Speaker 1: into the orange dory. Fred made sure Doug grabbed a 155 00:11:00,526 --> 00:11:04,246 Speaker 1: life jacket. Fred had on a float coat, buoyant but 156 00:11:04,286 --> 00:11:07,746 Speaker 1: not life-saving, and Verna didn't have any kind of flotation device. 157 00:11:09,106 --> 00:11:11,246 Speaker 1: He rode them around the north side of Bird Rock, 158 00:11:11,766 --> 00:11:16,046 Speaker 1: the open ocean side, to the spot Verna chose, approximately 159 00:11:16,046 --> 00:11:19,726 Speaker 1: 30 feet off the rock. In the anchorage, the water 160 00:11:19,746 --> 00:11:22,866 Speaker 1: had been glassy, but out here it was rougher, and 161 00:11:22,906 --> 00:11:24,906 Speaker 1: they were also effectively alone. 162 00:11:24,926 --> 00:11:31,946 Speaker 6: So we had just We'd gotten past what they called 163 00:11:32,046 --> 00:11:37,546 Speaker 6: bird rock and were getting ready to start lining things up. 164 00:11:38,626 --> 00:11:41,166 Speaker 1: According to Fred, Verna was in the bow, the front 165 00:11:41,186 --> 00:11:43,546 Speaker 1: of the boat. He was in the middle, sitting on 166 00:11:43,566 --> 00:11:45,746 Speaker 1: the bottom of the boat with his knees over the seat. 167 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,056 Speaker 1: He had his back toward Verna and was facing Doug, 168 00:11:49,296 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 1: who was in the stern, the rear of the boat. 169 00:11:52,856 --> 00:11:56,886 Speaker 6: Verna had been holding Lady, which was Doug's name, And 170 00:11:56,956 --> 00:11:59,316 Speaker 6: she passed them to me, and then I passed the 171 00:11:59,376 --> 00:12:05,976 Speaker 6: dog to Douglas. And the dogs got very enamored with 172 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 6: the birds that were on the rock and got excited. 173 00:12:10,336 --> 00:12:14,066 Speaker 6: And no sooner had he got a hold of the 174 00:12:14,126 --> 00:12:16,686 Speaker 6: dogs than the dogs started to go over the side. 175 00:12:17,906 --> 00:12:21,486 Speaker 1: Lady, he says, lunged for the birds. And Doug lunged 176 00:12:21,546 --> 00:12:24,346 Speaker 1: for Lady, toppling halfway out of the dory. 177 00:12:25,206 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 6: So Douglas... started to go for the dog, too. And 178 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:34,456 Speaker 6: then I had one of the dog's legs, and then 179 00:12:34,496 --> 00:12:37,476 Speaker 6: I saw a bump in my back, and it was 180 00:12:37,616 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 6: probably Verna trying to help as well. 181 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: And with that final accidental jolt from Verna, Fred says, 182 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:45,826 Speaker 1: the dory flipped. 183 00:12:45,846 --> 00:12:52,536 Speaker 6: Then the boat went over, and when I was underneath it, 184 00:12:53,486 --> 00:12:56,186 Speaker 6: I got tangled and got stuck underneath the boat. 185 00:12:57,256 --> 00:13:00,906 Speaker 1: It was terrifying, he says. Between the bow and stern 186 00:13:00,946 --> 00:13:03,866 Speaker 1: lines and his camera strap and the strings on the 187 00:13:03,886 --> 00:13:07,526 Speaker 1: hoodie of his float coat, he was caught. He couldn't 188 00:13:07,566 --> 00:13:10,006 Speaker 1: find an air pocket and he couldn't breathe. 189 00:13:11,046 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 6: I actually thought I was going to die under there 190 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:15,816 Speaker 6: because I couldn't get my head away from the seat 191 00:13:16,136 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 6: when I was underwater. So my head was up against 192 00:13:20,336 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 6: the seat and I couldn't get loose and I kept 193 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:27,026 Speaker 6: trying and. 194 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:35,016 Speaker 1: When he surfaced, he says, he looked around and spotted Verna. 195 00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:39,356 Speaker 6: Her eyes were open, but unseeing. He swam straight to Doug. 196 00:13:39,376 --> 00:13:43,636 Speaker 6: Doug was in bad shape, listing in the water near 197 00:13:43,736 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 6: the dory's stern. I noticed Douglas was off just a 198 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:03,216 Speaker 6: few feet away, but he wasn't saying anything. 199 00:14:04,016 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: The waves, Fred says, were splashing in Doug's face. 200 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:09,956 Speaker 6: So I got a hold of Douglas, and then I 201 00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:14,556 Speaker 6: noticed that he was vomiting and wasn't really responding. So 202 00:14:14,616 --> 00:14:17,196 Speaker 6: I cleared the vomit out, and then I tried getting 203 00:14:17,256 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 6: some air into him. 204 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 1: Carrying Doug with one arm, he swam back to Verna. 205 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:26,126 Speaker 1: He tried giving them both CPR. They didn't respond. 206 00:14:27,486 --> 00:14:30,126 Speaker 6: I was so stunned. I didn't really know what to do. 207 00:14:30,146 --> 00:14:35,796 Speaker 6: It was way too far to swim back to Perseverance. 208 00:14:38,736 --> 00:14:40,476 Speaker 1: He was desperate to get to land. 209 00:14:41,816 --> 00:14:46,116 Speaker 6: The dory was overturned, and it was basically floating to 210 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:51,066 Speaker 6: the south, away from us. And so I tried to 211 00:14:51,106 --> 00:14:54,426 Speaker 6: go over to the Rockburg Rock itself. 212 00:14:55,646 --> 00:14:59,046 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Lady had somehow clawed her way onto his shoulders. 213 00:14:59,726 --> 00:15:02,486 Speaker 1: So he swam that way, with Verna under one arm 214 00:15:02,706 --> 00:15:05,706 Speaker 1: and Doug under the other, and the puppy riding piggyback. 215 00:15:07,026 --> 00:15:09,696 Speaker 1: But Bird Rock was not to be their salvation. 216 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:14,276 Speaker 6: And when I got to where the rock was, the 217 00:15:14,336 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 6: Bird Rock, there was a blowhole, which is like a 218 00:15:19,816 --> 00:15:22,506 Speaker 6: cavity where the water goes in and then it shoots 219 00:15:22,526 --> 00:15:25,826 Speaker 6: the water out. So we had to swim past that. 220 00:15:26,746 --> 00:15:29,526 Speaker 1: That side of Bird Rock is a sheer cliff, some 221 00:15:29,526 --> 00:15:33,466 Speaker 1: 60 feet tall. Craggy, covered in barnacles, no place to 222 00:15:33,486 --> 00:15:37,056 Speaker 1: get footing. But somehow, Fred says, he was able to 223 00:15:37,076 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: get Lady onto Bird Rock. 224 00:15:39,416 --> 00:15:40,176 Speaker 6: It was January. 225 00:15:52,616 --> 00:15:55,576 Speaker 1: The water was 50 degrees, and they'd been in it, 226 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,656 Speaker 1: according to Fred's timeline, for something like an hour. They 227 00:15:59,696 --> 00:16:04,156 Speaker 1: were bundled up, waterlogged by now. Fred had on jeans, 228 00:16:04,416 --> 00:16:08,246 Speaker 1: a velour shirt, and the float coat. Verna was wearing pants, 229 00:16:08,426 --> 00:16:11,206 Speaker 1: a blouse, a sweater, and a brown and orange nylon 230 00:16:11,226 --> 00:16:15,886 Speaker 1: ski jacket. Doug, Fred later noted, was dressed like Charlie 231 00:16:15,906 --> 00:16:18,946 Speaker 1: Brown going out to play in the snow. Underneath his 232 00:16:18,986 --> 00:16:21,806 Speaker 1: life jacket, he was wearing a bulky winter sweater and parka, 233 00:16:22,316 --> 00:16:25,676 Speaker 1: and a pair of jeans. Near the rock, the waves 234 00:16:25,776 --> 00:16:29,816 Speaker 1: surged to four feet. Their three heads bobbed up and down. 235 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:34,656 Speaker 1: They were exhausted, near death, or maybe, in Verna and 236 00:16:34,696 --> 00:16:36,676 Speaker 1: Doug's case, already dead. 237 00:16:36,696 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 6: And then I knew I was sinking. I knew that 238 00:16:40,736 --> 00:16:43,896 Speaker 6: if we didn't get help soon, all three of us 239 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:44,806 Speaker 6: would have gone down. 240 00:16:46,206 --> 00:16:49,826 Speaker 1: Finally, Fred says, he saw a sailboat and yelled for help. 241 00:16:50,826 --> 00:16:54,786 Speaker 6: They heard me. And then they came over to where 242 00:16:54,866 --> 00:17:00,156 Speaker 6: I was and threw me a rope. We got, Verna 243 00:17:00,196 --> 00:17:04,836 Speaker 6: and Douglas were pulled up on board their boat. And 244 00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 6: then as I was trying to get up the ladder, 245 00:17:08,736 --> 00:17:13,126 Speaker 6: my legs were shot. And then they winched me aboard. 246 00:17:13,166 --> 00:17:16,586 Speaker 6: And the next thing I really knew was I woke 247 00:17:16,646 --> 00:17:17,746 Speaker 6: up in a helicopter. 248 00:17:18,946 --> 00:17:22,786 Speaker 1: He woke up into a nightmare. His wife was dead. 249 00:17:23,386 --> 00:17:28,406 Speaker 1: His stepson, dead. I'm going to ask you point blank 250 00:17:28,446 --> 00:17:31,806 Speaker 1: about Verna and Doug. Did you kill Verna and Doug? 251 00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:33,636 Speaker 6: I did not. 252 00:17:35,376 --> 00:17:39,936 Speaker 1: To Fred, Verna was perfect. Their life together in Malibu 253 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:45,536 Speaker 1: was a dream. Why would he have killed them and 254 00:17:45,656 --> 00:18:09,446 Speaker 1: ruined everything? You have to imagine Malibu when the railers 255 00:18:09,506 --> 00:18:13,446 Speaker 1: lived there. Same epic beaches, bathed in the same magic 256 00:18:13,486 --> 00:18:17,146 Speaker 1: hour light, but with practically no one on them. It 257 00:18:17,206 --> 00:18:21,536 Speaker 1: was the 70s. The innocent, squeaky clean Gidget era of 258 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:26,136 Speaker 1: the 1950s was over. The coke-fueled 80s were just roaring 259 00:18:26,156 --> 00:18:34,186 Speaker 1: into view. Malibu was on the cusp of becoming the 260 00:18:34,326 --> 00:18:39,176 Speaker 1: maximalist Fantasia it is today. $ 100 million mansions and Lamborghinis 261 00:18:39,256 --> 00:18:44,066 Speaker 1: and Birkin bags at the beach. But not yet. There 262 00:18:44,106 --> 00:18:50,506 Speaker 1: were celebrities, but they were low-key, laid-back, cool. Movie star 263 00:18:50,606 --> 00:18:53,466 Speaker 1: Ali McGraw lived out there with her young son and 264 00:18:53,506 --> 00:18:55,506 Speaker 1: her movie star husband, Steve McQueen. 265 00:18:56,746 --> 00:19:00,896 Speaker 8: It was 1972, and we rented a house on that 266 00:19:01,346 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 8: fantastic broad beach, which at the time was the widest 267 00:19:05,636 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 8: swath of Perfect sand. 268 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:09,336 Speaker 6: I loved it. 269 00:19:09,676 --> 00:19:12,586 Speaker 8: I loved it, and it provided my son with an 270 00:19:12,626 --> 00:19:13,846 Speaker 8: incredible childhood. 271 00:19:14,786 --> 00:19:17,806 Speaker 1: Their house, a rental on Broad Beach Road, was a 272 00:19:17,866 --> 00:19:21,306 Speaker 1: street away from the railers. And she doesn't remember this, 273 00:19:21,946 --> 00:19:23,926 Speaker 1: but Fred coached her son in sports. 274 00:19:25,006 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 8: All of us had funky little houses left over from 275 00:19:28,056 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 8: the 50s. You know, sand dunes in front of the 276 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:34,256 Speaker 8: house and the kind of flowers that only grow where 277 00:19:34,276 --> 00:19:40,456 Speaker 8: there's sand. My house was a funky little clabbered house, 278 00:19:40,896 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 8: really small, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a small kitchen, a 279 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:50,046 Speaker 8: living room facing the ocean. It was, when I rented it, 280 00:19:50,496 --> 00:19:59,926 Speaker 8: an absolute horror of brown wood inside, shag carpeting, brown kitchenware. appliances. 281 00:20:00,946 --> 00:20:03,786 Speaker 1: Back then, the celebrities had privacy. 282 00:20:04,806 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 8: Nobody came out there to photograph Steve or Goldie Hawn 283 00:20:10,816 --> 00:20:16,136 Speaker 8: or Sylvester Stallone. These are people, artists and directors and musicians, 284 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:20,146 Speaker 8: half of the rock star's had second homes there. 285 00:20:21,026 --> 00:20:24,226 Speaker 1: There was a freedom to do whatever. 286 00:20:25,106 --> 00:20:27,326 Speaker 8: There were tons of drugs. I didn't do drugs at 287 00:20:27,376 --> 00:20:31,316 Speaker 8: that point. But yeah, of course. I mean, it was 288 00:20:31,376 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 8: the most amazing moment in Los Angeles music. I never 289 00:20:38,156 --> 00:20:42,176 Speaker 8: met Bob Dylan, and he's still out there. But there, 290 00:20:42,476 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 8: you know, there was Neil Young, there were most of 291 00:20:44,416 --> 00:20:47,776 Speaker 8: the Eagles, there was you know, Peter, Paul, and Mary, 292 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:52,946 Speaker 8: and Chris Christopherson, and the band, you know, all of 293 00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:54,736 Speaker 8: Robbie Robertson's crowd were out there. 294 00:20:58,346 --> 00:21:02,266 Speaker 1: Robbie Robertson had moved his family there, sight unseen, into 295 00:21:02,346 --> 00:21:06,046 Speaker 1: Sam Peckinpah's house in the Malibu colony because his friend 296 00:21:06,106 --> 00:21:07,366 Speaker 1: David Geffen told him to. 297 00:21:08,346 --> 00:21:13,046 Speaker 7: The night that we arrived there, I was sitting there 298 00:21:13,086 --> 00:21:19,366 Speaker 7: with my wife, and then we heard this ungodly screaming 299 00:21:19,446 --> 00:21:23,026 Speaker 7: from a woman. So we jumped up and we ran 300 00:21:23,086 --> 00:21:25,886 Speaker 7: out to the front door trying to figure out what 301 00:21:25,946 --> 00:21:32,786 Speaker 7: was going on. What was that? And we should call 302 00:21:32,826 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 7: the police. What should we do? We're running back and forth. 303 00:21:38,416 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 7: But the screaming keeps going on and on until it 304 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:49,806 Speaker 7: becomes like an odd thing, an odd screaming. And as 305 00:21:49,886 --> 00:21:54,426 Speaker 7: it turned out, our next door neighbor was Diane Cannon, 306 00:21:54,486 --> 00:21:58,966 Speaker 7: the actress, and she was practicing primal scream. 307 00:21:59,946 --> 00:22:03,326 Speaker 1: He set up a studio in a former bordello called Shangri-La, 308 00:22:03,766 --> 00:22:07,206 Speaker 1: overlooking Zuma Beach. Everyone recorded out there. 309 00:22:08,046 --> 00:22:13,146 Speaker 7: The band and Bob Dylan, we just, we found this 310 00:22:13,246 --> 00:22:17,826 Speaker 7: to be kind of like a sanctuary that you could 311 00:22:17,886 --> 00:22:22,526 Speaker 7: be invisible as well as be around some of the 312 00:22:22,566 --> 00:22:25,686 Speaker 7: most famous people in the world. It was a very 313 00:22:25,886 --> 00:22:36,176 Speaker 7: unusual and great combination. The 70s became pretty crazy. And 314 00:22:37,116 --> 00:22:41,496 Speaker 7: there was a lot of drugs and a lot of 315 00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:46,926 Speaker 7: everything going on. And when you're just in the middle 316 00:22:46,966 --> 00:22:51,966 Speaker 7: of something, it seems very natural. It seems very normal. 317 00:22:53,146 --> 00:22:57,206 Speaker 7: So you just participate. You just hang out and say, oh, 318 00:22:57,766 --> 00:22:58,866 Speaker 7: everybody's doing it. 319 00:22:59,566 --> 00:23:00,386 Speaker 9: This is cool. 320 00:23:01,346 --> 00:23:04,066 Speaker 1: But most of the people in Malibu then were pretty normal. 321 00:23:04,746 --> 00:23:07,136 Speaker 1: And the electricians and the school teachers and the movie 322 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: stars all sent their kids to the local elementary school. 323 00:23:11,406 --> 00:23:14,826 Speaker 8: What was extraordinary about it was in that time, I 324 00:23:15,886 --> 00:23:18,846 Speaker 8: have to call them real people lived there. It was 325 00:23:19,586 --> 00:23:23,126 Speaker 8: just people who did every sort of job you can imagine. 326 00:23:23,146 --> 00:23:28,516 Speaker 8: And it was so, so normal. So, of course, the 327 00:23:28,656 --> 00:23:32,836 Speaker 8: sea there then was clean and beautiful, and the kids 328 00:23:33,496 --> 00:23:35,456 Speaker 8: swam in it every single day after school. 329 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:39,466 Speaker 1: It was maybe the last moment that a middle-class family 330 00:23:39,556 --> 00:23:44,626 Speaker 1: could live beachfront in Malibu. Before long, even Allie McGraw 331 00:23:44,646 --> 00:23:47,546 Speaker 1: got priced out. The house she was renting got put 332 00:23:47,586 --> 00:23:48,146 Speaker 1: up for sale. 333 00:23:48,886 --> 00:23:52,046 Speaker 8: I couldn't afford to buy it. And so a big 334 00:23:52,386 --> 00:23:55,336 Speaker 8: entertainer bought it, took every single thing down off of 335 00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:58,396 Speaker 8: the property and is currently on the market for $ 16 million. 336 00:24:00,576 --> 00:24:04,756 Speaker 1: Back then, Malibu was fun and it was sexy and 337 00:24:04,776 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: it was a little out there. It wasn't really yet 338 00:24:08,416 --> 00:24:10,706 Speaker 1: on the map. at least not in the way it 339 00:24:10,766 --> 00:24:16,966 Speaker 1: is now. But it was also changing, getting flashier, fancier, faster. 340 00:24:17,726 --> 00:24:24,656 Speaker 7: And I was losing my fascination with the place because 341 00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:31,276 Speaker 7: it was changing. This vibe that was there before started 342 00:24:31,456 --> 00:24:38,396 Speaker 7: evolving into different people. And it didn't have the same 343 00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 7: charm didn't have the same quality of coolness with all 344 00:24:43,696 --> 00:24:45,876 Speaker 7: of these wonderful people. 345 00:24:45,896 --> 00:24:49,616 Speaker 1: The drugs had changed, and that changed everything. 346 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:55,646 Speaker 7: I don't know. In the beginning, it felt fun and 347 00:24:56,006 --> 00:25:01,466 Speaker 7: more inclusive and friendly. And later on, you know, with 348 00:25:01,526 --> 00:25:06,176 Speaker 7: hard drugs, I mean, that's all it takes. You know, 349 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:11,676 Speaker 7: you go from social drugs to hard drugs, it ain't 350 00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 7: social anymore. 351 00:25:12,856 --> 00:25:15,746 Speaker 1: And there was a new crowd in town. 352 00:25:16,286 --> 00:25:22,966 Speaker 7: It was a combination of some people with money and 353 00:25:23,026 --> 00:25:30,726 Speaker 7: drug dealers and kind of scroungy people. And there was even, 354 00:25:31,426 --> 00:25:37,666 Speaker 7: it went from being this Shangri-La world out there this 355 00:25:37,766 --> 00:25:43,546 Speaker 7: bit of paradise into a feeling of, it just felt 356 00:25:43,606 --> 00:25:44,866 Speaker 7: dirty all of a sudden. 357 00:25:46,986 --> 00:25:50,366 Speaker 1: Soon the middle class, the real people, would be edged out. 358 00:25:51,166 --> 00:25:54,546 Speaker 1: People like Fred and Verna. She was a teacher's aide. 359 00:25:55,166 --> 00:25:57,726 Speaker 1: He was a civilian employee of the naval base at 360 00:25:57,786 --> 00:26:01,856 Speaker 1: Point Magoo. Highly educated, with a master's from Berkeley in 361 00:26:01,896 --> 00:26:07,776 Speaker 1: naval architecture, but a government employee, making government money. They 362 00:26:07,816 --> 00:26:11,096 Speaker 1: were raising four kids in what was quickly becoming one 363 00:26:11,136 --> 00:26:14,496 Speaker 1: of the most expensive communities in America. It would have 364 00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:19,816 Speaker 1: been hard to compete, let alone hang on. But the 365 00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:23,876 Speaker 1: Raylor family had something very valuable. They owned a house 366 00:26:24,096 --> 00:26:28,096 Speaker 1: on Sea Level Drive, a private gated street that dead-ends 367 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,616 Speaker 1: at one of the prettiest beaches in Malibu. Their house 368 00:26:31,656 --> 00:26:35,516 Speaker 1: was large and ugly, covered in orange shag. But Fred 369 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:38,556 Speaker 1: was fixing it up, building a roof deck with panoramic 370 00:26:38,726 --> 00:26:43,466 Speaker 1: ocean views. He knew what they had. And if they 371 00:26:43,486 --> 00:26:45,886 Speaker 1: played it right, they might be able to ride this 372 00:26:45,986 --> 00:26:49,826 Speaker 1: wave of real estate and money and get to live 373 00:26:49,876 --> 00:27:11,386 Speaker 1: in Malibu forever. Fred and Verna bought the house on 374 00:27:11,466 --> 00:27:14,826 Speaker 1: Sea Level Drive in the fall of 1977. They were 375 00:27:14,846 --> 00:27:18,266 Speaker 1: a new couple, in love, and they had a powerful connection. 376 00:27:19,286 --> 00:27:22,526 Speaker 1: Fred was a widower. His wife Jean, the mother of 377 00:27:22,586 --> 00:27:26,146 Speaker 1: Heidi and Kirsten, had died the year before. And Verna 378 00:27:26,186 --> 00:27:29,866 Speaker 1: was a widow. Her husband, Bill Johnson, the father of 379 00:27:29,906 --> 00:27:34,146 Speaker 1: Kim and Doug, had also died. By suicide, people whispered. 380 00:27:35,126 --> 00:27:40,086 Speaker 1: Lovely Verna's hair had turned prematurely silver. The kids were 381 00:27:40,146 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 1: all little. Heidi and Kirsten needed a mom. Kim and 382 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 1: Doug needed a dad. Fred was attractive. Thick, curly, dark hair, 383 00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:56,386 Speaker 1: a little broody, a catch. And Verna? Everyone in Malibu 384 00:27:56,586 --> 00:28:00,446 Speaker 1: loved Verna. They found each other, and it worked. 385 00:28:01,406 --> 00:28:03,946 Speaker 9: I think a lot of people envied Fred and Verna. 386 00:28:04,766 --> 00:28:08,116 Speaker 10: You know, they were the perfect story of yours, mine, 387 00:28:08,176 --> 00:28:08,636 Speaker 10: and ours. 388 00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:12,316 Speaker 1: That's Mark Hetrick, an old friend of the family that 389 00:28:12,356 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: I talked to recently. His wife Beth and Verna taught 390 00:28:15,856 --> 00:28:19,816 Speaker 1: together at the elementary school. Mark was a carpenter. He 391 00:28:19,856 --> 00:28:22,316 Speaker 1: was helping Fred with the roof deck, and they all 392 00:28:22,386 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 1: hung out a lot. 393 00:28:23,966 --> 00:28:26,466 Speaker 9: He kind of could do anything. 394 00:28:26,546 --> 00:28:30,766 Speaker 10: I mean, he wasn't a professional contractor or carpenter, and 395 00:28:30,806 --> 00:28:33,046 Speaker 10: he wasn't afraid to, you know, take the roof off 396 00:28:33,086 --> 00:28:34,666 Speaker 10: of his house and put a deck on it. 397 00:28:35,336 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 9: You know, he could. 398 00:28:35,936 --> 00:28:38,576 Speaker 10: Weld and he was a mechanic. I mean, he could 399 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:41,336 Speaker 10: just do all these things. He was just very mechanical 400 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 10: and very engineering. 401 00:28:42,416 --> 00:28:46,816 Speaker 1: As a family, they were athletic and outdoorsy, always hiking 402 00:28:46,886 --> 00:28:47,846 Speaker 1: or getting in the ocean. 403 00:28:48,466 --> 00:28:54,346 Speaker 10: They were 100% involved in their children's lives. You know, 404 00:28:54,446 --> 00:28:58,686 Speaker 10: Verna was in the teacher's assistants in their classes. And, 405 00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:01,886 Speaker 10: you know, Fred was there for all of the kids 406 00:29:02,006 --> 00:29:06,016 Speaker 10: all the time. And Verna was there for all the 407 00:29:06,066 --> 00:29:09,486 Speaker 10: kids all the time. And, I mean, they just were 408 00:29:09,506 --> 00:29:12,846 Speaker 10: the parents that every kid would want. And their family 409 00:29:12,906 --> 00:29:16,046 Speaker 10: was just the most important thing to them. 410 00:29:17,086 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 1: Mark told me he and Beth looked up to Fred 411 00:29:19,496 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 1: and Verna. 412 00:29:20,856 --> 00:29:27,296 Speaker 10: They were the picture postcard, Christmas postcard family of just, 413 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:32,946 Speaker 10: you know, two very handsome, intelligent people with four kids 414 00:29:33,026 --> 00:29:36,776 Speaker 10: that were just delightful. Those were the kind of kids 415 00:29:36,816 --> 00:29:38,896 Speaker 10: that we wanted to have and kind of the family 416 00:29:38,936 --> 00:29:40,496 Speaker 10: that we wanted to have. 417 00:29:42,386 --> 00:29:45,686 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna seemed pretty unimpressed by the wealth and 418 00:29:45,726 --> 00:29:46,746 Speaker 1: glamour of Malibu. 419 00:29:47,606 --> 00:29:52,056 Speaker 10: They weren't your, you know, your real upscale, um, Malibu 420 00:29:52,376 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 10: people that had, um, a Hollywood connection, you know, or 421 00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 10: a movie industry connection. 422 00:29:57,716 --> 00:29:59,636 Speaker 9: Cause Fred and Verna, you know. 423 00:29:59,676 --> 00:30:04,096 Speaker 10: They were, you know, they were pretty settled, um, solid, 424 00:30:05,056 --> 00:30:09,366 Speaker 10: you know, upper middle-class family living there that, um, you know, 425 00:30:10,006 --> 00:30:12,426 Speaker 10: had this wonderful piece of property and they were, you know, 426 00:30:12,466 --> 00:30:14,046 Speaker 10: and it was a wonderful place to live and a 427 00:30:14,186 --> 00:30:15,806 Speaker 10: wonderful place to raise kids. 428 00:30:16,786 --> 00:30:20,936 Speaker 1: Fred, in particular, did not seem concerned with appearances. 429 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:28,016 Speaker 9: You know, he was sort of not your average Malibu guy. 430 00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:32,396 Speaker 9: You know, I mean, he wasn't trying to be Mr. 431 00:30:32,456 --> 00:30:37,056 Speaker 10: Malibu. So was Fred affected by the whole Malibu glitz 432 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 10: and glamour? 433 00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:40,786 Speaker 9: No, not at all. Fred, you know, he didn't really 434 00:30:40,826 --> 00:30:41,686 Speaker 9: care about that stuff. 435 00:30:42,326 --> 00:30:45,956 Speaker 1: He was a family man, living his values. And there 436 00:30:46,096 --> 00:30:48,536 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of that going around Malibu at the time. 437 00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:52,056 Speaker 1: Here's another friend in an interview with investigators. 438 00:30:52,796 --> 00:30:55,216 Speaker 11: We've seen so many people our age that sort of 439 00:30:55,296 --> 00:30:59,376 Speaker 11: the man goes through this sort of midlife crisis where 440 00:30:59,416 --> 00:31:07,246 Speaker 11: they're sort of insecure and concerned with material things and girlfriends. Mm-hmm. 441 00:31:08,006 --> 00:31:14,686 Speaker 11: You know, driving a Porsche and chasing girls. And, you know, 442 00:31:14,726 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 11: sort of where their family is a drag on them. 443 00:31:19,496 --> 00:31:21,156 Speaker 11: And there were an awful lot of people like that 444 00:31:21,176 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 11: in Albu. And, you know, Fred couldn't be more different 445 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:26,616 Speaker 11: than that. 446 00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:32,036 Speaker 1: Like a lot of engineers, Fred was logical and analytical, 447 00:31:32,496 --> 00:31:36,296 Speaker 1: and he was highly competent, especially in the water. On 448 00:31:36,316 --> 00:31:40,316 Speaker 1: the sailboat, he was meticulous about safety. Here's Mark Hetrick 449 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 1: again in an archival interview. 450 00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:46,746 Speaker 4: The kids always had their life jackets on if they 451 00:31:46,786 --> 00:31:48,706 Speaker 4: weren't in the cockpit, and they had to ask an 452 00:31:48,746 --> 00:31:51,046 Speaker 4: adult permission to get out of the cockpit and go 453 00:31:51,146 --> 00:31:54,906 Speaker 4: anywhere else on the boat. Anytime they were ever rowing 454 00:31:54,966 --> 00:31:57,186 Speaker 4: around in the dinghy, whether it was in the harbor 455 00:31:57,386 --> 00:31:59,786 Speaker 4: or whether it was over on the island, they couldn't 456 00:31:59,846 --> 00:32:02,406 Speaker 4: go out of shouting distance of the boat. 457 00:32:03,746 --> 00:32:06,416 Speaker 1: Mark sailed with Fred a lot. and was in several 458 00:32:06,536 --> 00:32:10,716 Speaker 1: harrowing situations with him. But whatever was going on, he said, 459 00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:12,816 Speaker 1: Fred kept his composure. 460 00:32:13,806 --> 00:32:18,806 Speaker 4: Never, never raised his voice. Never shouted or got angry. 461 00:32:20,046 --> 00:32:29,536 Speaker 4: And was extremely calm in situations that were potentially dangerous 462 00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:30,296 Speaker 4: or scary. 463 00:32:31,176 --> 00:32:35,596 Speaker 1: Remain calm under pressure. Fred's extensive training in the water 464 00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:39,736 Speaker 1: had taught him this. But that quality of composure, of 465 00:32:39,776 --> 00:32:43,736 Speaker 1: not succumbing to panic or hysteria, it hadn't helped him 466 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:55,906 Speaker 1: save Verna and Doug's lives. Fred was the only survivor 467 00:32:55,926 --> 00:33:00,576 Speaker 1: of the Dory incident, the only human survivor. The day 468 00:33:00,776 --> 00:33:04,496 Speaker 1: after Verna and Doug drowned, Lady, the beagle puppy, was 469 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:09,446 Speaker 1: rescued from Bird Rock. Here's Tony Clinch, an experienced sailor 470 00:33:09,806 --> 00:33:13,066 Speaker 1: who knew the waters around Santa Cruz Island well. He's 471 00:33:13,106 --> 00:33:16,246 Speaker 1: telling an investigator about how he found Lady hiding under 472 00:33:16,286 --> 00:33:16,666 Speaker 1: a shrub. 473 00:33:16,686 --> 00:33:20,266 Speaker 3: We noticed the birds were dive-bombing it. That's how we 474 00:33:20,286 --> 00:33:23,226 Speaker 3: spotted the dog. Tiny little dog, this dog. Maybe that big. 475 00:33:23,286 --> 00:33:23,766 Speaker 1: Beagle. 476 00:33:23,866 --> 00:33:24,606 Speaker 11: Beagle. 477 00:33:24,806 --> 00:33:25,506 Speaker 6: Beagle. 478 00:33:26,566 --> 00:33:29,626 Speaker 1: It would seem a bittersweet footnote to the tragic story. 479 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:32,996 Speaker 1: Fred's heroic efforts in the water had not been a 480 00:33:33,076 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 1: total waste. At least he was able to save his dog. 481 00:33:37,786 --> 00:33:42,426 Speaker 1: But the fact of Lady, that she was, improbably, alive, 482 00:33:43,466 --> 00:33:47,066 Speaker 1: opened up a seam in Fred's story. Fred said he 483 00:33:47,166 --> 00:33:50,146 Speaker 1: swam from where the dory capsized over to Bird Rock, 484 00:33:50,686 --> 00:33:55,106 Speaker 1: carrying Verna and Doug, with Lady on his head. Clinch 485 00:33:55,126 --> 00:33:59,186 Speaker 1: didn't buy it. With the current and the wind, just, no. 486 00:34:00,096 --> 00:34:02,576 Speaker 3: How could he have? He couldn't have thrown that dog ashore. 487 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:04,536 Speaker 3: The dog couldn't have made it ashore. 488 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:08,196 Speaker 1: Then the claim that he hoisted Lady up onto Bird Rock, 489 00:34:08,936 --> 00:34:10,466 Speaker 1: and that Lady scrambled up it. 490 00:34:10,986 --> 00:34:13,766 Speaker 3: That's sheer clue. I would defy the dog. A human 491 00:34:13,806 --> 00:34:15,886 Speaker 3: being could have scaled and faced that clue. 492 00:34:16,486 --> 00:34:18,166 Speaker 10: Much less an animal. 493 00:34:18,626 --> 00:34:21,526 Speaker 1: If Fred was telling the truth about where they capsized, 494 00:34:21,586 --> 00:34:25,956 Speaker 1: what he did, where he swam, then Lady should be dead. 495 00:34:27,296 --> 00:34:32,696 Speaker 1: But Lady was alive. Fred's sailing buddy Dick had picked 496 00:34:32,736 --> 00:34:36,516 Speaker 1: her up from Tony Clinch. And soon Lady would return 497 00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:39,196 Speaker 1: to Sea Level Drive and provide a small bit of 498 00:34:39,276 --> 00:34:42,676 Speaker 1: comfort to Kim, Heidi, and Kirsten as they began their 499 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:49,646 Speaker 1: lives without Verna and Doug. Lady's inexplicable survival. That was 500 00:34:49,706 --> 00:34:52,146 Speaker 1: just one of the things that made the police suspect 501 00:34:52,326 --> 00:35:11,776 Speaker 1: Fred's story was the invention of a murderer. Coming up 502 00:35:11,916 --> 00:35:16,046 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Lost Hills, detectives come knocking. 503 00:35:16,066 --> 00:35:18,966 Speaker 1: They have a lot of questions for Fred. 504 00:35:18,986 --> 00:35:22,026 Speaker 12: To be honest with you, Fred, we really don't know 505 00:35:22,506 --> 00:35:27,296 Speaker 12: much about what's going on. We have no idea of, well, 506 00:35:27,496 --> 00:35:29,396 Speaker 12: I can't say we have no idea. We do have 507 00:35:29,416 --> 00:35:34,396 Speaker 12: an idea of what happened out at the island, but 508 00:35:34,416 --> 00:35:40,206 Speaker 12: everything is really sketchy. So we're kind of like, turn 509 00:35:40,266 --> 00:35:44,746 Speaker 12: into after the fact. Somehow we need to figure out 510 00:35:45,006 --> 00:35:49,666 Speaker 12: if there's a way we can figure out to make 511 00:35:49,726 --> 00:35:53,456 Speaker 12: sure that there was no foul play or anything like that. 512 00:35:54,356 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 2, Quiet No Longer. Lost Hills 513 00:36:04,616 --> 00:36:08,376 Speaker 1: is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created 514 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,586 Speaker 1: by me and Ben Adair. and produced by Western Sound 515 00:36:11,786 --> 00:36:15,376 Speaker 1: and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can 516 00:36:15,396 --> 00:36:18,076 Speaker 1: hear the whole season ad-free and get early access to 517 00:36:18,096 --> 00:36:21,176 Speaker 1: the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost 518 00:36:21,196 --> 00:36:23,916 Speaker 1: Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.