1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:33,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The Channel Islands have the kind of stark, pristine 2 00:00:33,916 --> 00:00:37,996 Speaker 1: beauty that makes people fall in love with California. Santa 3 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: Cruz Island is probably the most stunning in the archipelago. 4 00:00:41,676 --> 00:00:45,556 Speaker 1: About thirty miles due west of Malibu. It's surrounded by glassy, 5 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 1: indigo water, giant kelp forests, and tide pools. But probably 6 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 1: the island's most fascinating feature, the one that draws kayakers 7 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:58,036 Speaker 1: and scuba divers from all over, is its abundance of 8 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 1: sea caves with names like Shipwreck Cave and Limbo. On 9 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 1: the north side of the island, a couple hundred feet 10 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:09,676 Speaker 1: into the ocean, there's a huge, white, spattered rock with 11 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: a sheer cliff face. It's called bird Rock for obvious reasons. 12 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:19,036 Speaker 1: Bird Rock has its own sea cave, a tall chamber 13 00:01:19,076 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 1: with walls that are covered in green algae. It's mysterious 14 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 1: and cool, but once you know the story of Fred Railer, 15 00:01:27,476 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: it's impossible to look at the sea cave or any 16 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:35,756 Speaker 1: part of this beautiful island the same way again. On 17 00:01:35,876 --> 00:01:39,436 Speaker 1: January second, nineteen eighty one, Railer, a thirty eight year 18 00:01:39,436 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 1: old man from Malibu, was pulled out of the water 19 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,996 Speaker 1: on the open ocean side of Bird Rock, along with 20 00:01:45,076 --> 00:01:48,396 Speaker 1: his wife, thirty six year old Verna Johnson Railer and 21 00:01:48,516 --> 00:01:53,596 Speaker 1: her son, his stepson, eight year old Doug Johnson. Verna 22 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:57,476 Speaker 1: and Doug were soon declared dead. Fred was cold, but 23 00:01:57,556 --> 00:02:01,916 Speaker 1: other than that fine, His pulse was steady, his breathing 24 00:02:01,996 --> 00:02:07,276 Speaker 1: was normal. He appeared to be unscathed. Fred said their rowboat, 25 00:02:07,316 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: a sixteen foot orange story, overturned and he had done 26 00:02:10,756 --> 00:02:14,756 Speaker 1: everything possible to save his wife and stepchild. He was 27 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 1: the sole survivor and the only witness. For many, many months, 28 00:02:23,956 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 1: we were just trying to figure out what happened and 29 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:33,636 Speaker 1: is there any truth to Railer's story. That's a criminalist 30 00:02:33,716 --> 00:02:37,116 Speaker 1: named doctor Dwayne Mose. At the time of Verna and 31 00:02:37,156 --> 00:02:40,356 Speaker 1: Doug's deaths, he worked for a California state crime lab, 32 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:43,436 Speaker 1: and eventually we decided there was no truth to it 33 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 1: at all. We could not substantiate anything he said, but 34 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 1: we could substantiate alternatives. And as I saw this going on, 35 00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: it all came together in my head as a story. 36 00:03:05,876 --> 00:03:10,036 Speaker 1: Doctor Mose is an expert in crime scene reconstruction. When 37 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:12,476 Speaker 1: he found out about the sea cave inside Bird Rock, 38 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: he wanted to investigate and I said, I want to 39 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: go inside, and I looked around at the rocks, the 40 00:03:20,116 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 1: height of the cave, and that's when another piece of 41 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 1: the puzzle fell in place. That's what I turned to 42 00:03:26,956 --> 00:03:29,156 Speaker 1: the people in the boat and I said, this is 43 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 1: where it happened. It did not happen out there in 44 00:03:32,436 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: the ocean. It happened in this cave. The cave, he said, 45 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 1: was spacious and secluded, and it's tall and narrow. It's 46 00:03:42,436 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 1: tall enough so that a man can take an oar 47 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:50,076 Speaker 1: to a rowboat, swing it high, and bring it down 48 00:03:50,156 --> 00:03:54,876 Speaker 1: on an object with some force. My theory is that 49 00:03:54,956 --> 00:03:58,596 Speaker 1: he rowed the boat into this cave with the intention 50 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:01,556 Speaker 1: of killing both of them. He would have started with 51 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 1: Verna catching her off guard. Verna was in the bow 52 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: and Douglas was in the stern, and Railer was sitting 53 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 1: where a rower would normally sit, and he was in 54 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:19,316 Speaker 1: the middle. So while Verna would be looking forward to 55 00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: defend the bow of the boat against the rocks, Railer 56 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:25,676 Speaker 1: could easily pick up an oar, swing it hit her 57 00:04:25,716 --> 00:04:28,916 Speaker 1: on the head. Then he would have turned to Doug. 58 00:04:29,556 --> 00:04:34,076 Speaker 1: I believe that Douglas Johnson sprang from the stern of 59 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:40,596 Speaker 1: the doorway onto Railer in an attempt to protect his mother, 60 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: and I believe that Railer took Douglas by the head 61 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: slammed the back of his head twice into the edge 62 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:56,076 Speaker 1: of the seat where the seat met the inside surface 63 00:04:56,116 --> 00:05:01,716 Speaker 1: of the hull. Verna was petite, one hundred and fifteen pounds, 64 00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:07,876 Speaker 1: Doug only fifty something. Fred was six feet two. First 65 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 1: thing in the morning. He could have easily overpowered them, 66 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:14,676 Speaker 1: knocking them out, Moses says, so he could finish them off. 67 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:19,996 Speaker 1: He then threw, pushed, or carried both of them overboard 68 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 1: and drowned them. He then exited the cave, and it 69 00:05:26,436 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: would have been difficult to get both bodies back in 70 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: the boat, so I think he pushed the boat out 71 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:35,436 Speaker 1: of the cave and then took the two bodies and 72 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:38,196 Speaker 1: swam around on the other side of Bird Rock, where 73 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:42,596 Speaker 1: he was found and taken out of the water by 74 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:46,116 Speaker 1: the people on this boat that was passing by. That 75 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 1: explained so much, explained all the damage to the hull 76 00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:54,716 Speaker 1: of the dory, explained while there was no witnesses to 77 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 1: what went on, it just made it easier to do 78 00:05:59,356 --> 00:06:02,676 Speaker 1: what he did. By the way the oars for the 79 00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: Dory were never recovered. They were lost somewhere somehow in 80 00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:11,836 Speaker 1: the ocean. But this is just a story, albeit a 81 00:06:11,836 --> 00:06:15,036 Speaker 1: powerful persuasive one. It's a story that a lot of 82 00:06:15,036 --> 00:06:18,356 Speaker 1: people have come to believe is true. It's a story 83 00:06:18,396 --> 00:06:24,996 Speaker 1: that helps send Fred Rayler to prison. But Fred's story 84 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 1: that he was trying as hard as he could to 85 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:30,796 Speaker 1: save his wife and stepson, that he was a rescuer, 86 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:34,796 Speaker 1: not a murderer. His story has a few supporters too. 87 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:40,596 Speaker 1: To this day, I do not believe he did this. 88 00:06:41,716 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: That's Verna's sister, Julianne, Verna's mother, went to her grave 89 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 1: convinced of Fred's innocence. And Verna's daughter Kim, who lost 90 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 1: not only her mother but also her little brother Doug, 91 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 1: she believes Fred too, So do his two daughters, Heidi 92 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 1: and Kirsten. They all maintain that Verna and Doug died 93 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:06,956 Speaker 1: in a tragic accident. And it's not just the family. 94 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 1: There are legal experts who leave Fred's case was a 95 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. This is Justin Brooks, director of the 96 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: California Innocence Project. Well, it looked to me like the 97 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 1: kind of case where a person was convicted based on bias. 98 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:26,516 Speaker 1: This summer, I got access to an archive of recorded interviews, 99 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: investigation reports, and court filings. They led me into a 100 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: forgotten world Malibu in the late seventies and early eighties, 101 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:40,756 Speaker 1: when the consummate family man was accused of horrible crimes, 102 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: and Malibu itself was the motive. I'm Dana Goodyear and 103 00:07:49,876 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 1: this is Lost Hills. This is Season two, Dead in 104 00:08:20,076 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 1: the Water, Episode one. Mister Malibu. Fred Railer is an 105 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:33,076 Speaker 1: inmate at the California State Prison in Lancaster. He's serving 106 00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 1: a life sentence without the possibility of parole for the 107 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 1: murders of his wife, Erna and his stepson Doug. For 108 00:08:40,716 --> 00:08:43,156 Speaker 1: the past few months, he's been calling me most days, 109 00:08:43,516 --> 00:08:46,756 Speaker 1: usually at eight thirty am sharp, just after I've dropped 110 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:50,356 Speaker 1: off my kids at school. Good morning, Hi, Fred, how 111 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 1: are you? His daughter Kirsten put us in touch. She's 112 00:08:54,916 --> 00:08:57,836 Speaker 1: forty seven, the youngest of the sisters, and she doesn't 113 00:08:57,836 --> 00:09:00,676 Speaker 1: have a family of her own. She's devoted her adult 114 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:04,116 Speaker 1: life to freeing her father. In the time since I 115 00:09:04,156 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 1: started talking to Fred, he's been given a diagnosis of 116 00:09:06,996 --> 00:09:10,156 Speaker 1: kidney cancer, and the project of getting him released has 117 00:09:10,196 --> 00:09:14,356 Speaker 1: become even more urgent. For his kids. Fred has told 118 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: his story a thousand and one times. He's written it down, 119 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 1: recorded it into a polygraph machine, sworn to it on 120 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: the witness stand, committed it to memory. So the story 121 00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: has a plot in quality, like an old horse that's 122 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:32,196 Speaker 1: been led around the ring too many times. On January second, 123 00:09:32,356 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, the family set out early from Ventura 124 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 1: Harbor on Perseverance, their fifty foot sailboat. It was a Friday, 125 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 1: the first weekend of the new year. Much of Fred's 126 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: extended family was on board, his mother and father, and 127 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:49,316 Speaker 1: his brother and sister in law, who were visiting from 128 00:09:49,316 --> 00:09:53,356 Speaker 1: Indiana for the holidays. His wife, Ferna, the four kids 129 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: they had between them, ages six to eleven, and the 130 00:09:56,556 --> 00:10:00,156 Speaker 1: family dog, a six month old beagle puppy named Lady. 131 00:10:01,316 --> 00:10:05,996 Speaker 1: They crossed the channel to Santa Cruz Island. Verna steered 132 00:10:06,036 --> 00:10:08,836 Speaker 1: Perseverance into the anchorage to the east of Bird Rock. 133 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 1: Around noon. They had lunch. Then Fred's brother and his 134 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:16,316 Speaker 1: wife took an inflatable dinghy to the island, bringing the 135 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:20,436 Speaker 1: two older girls with them. Kirsten was only six, and 136 00:10:20,596 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 1: she was told to stay back with her grandparents and 137 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:28,436 Speaker 1: take a nap. That left Fred, Verna and Doug. Fred 138 00:10:28,516 --> 00:10:31,916 Speaker 1: says an idea popped into Verna's head. We had to 139 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:38,356 Speaker 1: puppy aboard the first time, and Verna suggested that we 140 00:10:38,516 --> 00:10:41,196 Speaker 1: go out and maybe take some pictures with the dog 141 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 1: and Douglas and the boats and things. Verna, he says, 142 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:49,916 Speaker 1: had a specific shot in mind, Doug holding Lady in 143 00:10:49,956 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: front of Bird Rock with perseverance in the deep background. 144 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:58,116 Speaker 1: So Fred, Verna, Doug, and Lady piled into the orange story. 145 00:10:59,076 --> 00:11:02,356 Speaker 1: Fred made sure dog grabbed a life jacket. Fred had 146 00:11:02,356 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 1: on a float coat buoyant but not life saving, and 147 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 1: Verna didn't have any kind of floatation device. He rowed 148 00:11:09,516 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 1: them around the north side of Bird Rock, the open 149 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: ocean side to the spot Verna chose approximately thirty feet 150 00:11:16,756 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: off the rock. In the anchorage, the water had been glassy, 151 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:23,516 Speaker 1: but out here it was rougher, and they were also 152 00:11:23,636 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: effectively alone. So we had just gotten passed what they 153 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 1: called bird Rock, and we're getting ready to start lining 154 00:11:37,036 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 1: things up. According to Fred, Verna was in the bow, 155 00:11:40,796 --> 00:11:42,916 Speaker 1: the front of the boat. He was in the middle, 156 00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 1: sitting on the bottom of the boat with his knees 157 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:47,996 Speaker 1: over the seat. He had his back toward Verna and 158 00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 1: was facing Doug, who was in the stern the rear 159 00:11:50,956 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 1: of the boat. Verna had been holding lady with the 160 00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:58,516 Speaker 1: dog's name, and she passed them to me, and then 161 00:11:58,556 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: I passed the dog to Douglas. When the dog got 162 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:08,556 Speaker 1: very enamored with the birds that were on the rock 163 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 1: and got excited, and no sooner head he got ahold 164 00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:16,076 Speaker 1: of the dogs, and the dog started to go over 165 00:12:16,156 --> 00:12:20,596 Speaker 1: the side. Lady, he says, lunged for the birds, and 166 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: Doug lunged for Lady, toppling halfway out of the dory. 167 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 1: So Douglas started to go for the dog too, and 168 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: then I had one of the dog's legs and then 169 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:37,476 Speaker 1: I fall a bump in my back, and I was 170 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 1: probably Verna trying to help as well. And with that 171 00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: final accidental jolt from Verna, Fred says, the dory flipped. 172 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:52,476 Speaker 1: Then the boat went over, and when I was underneath it, 173 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 1: I got tangled and got stuck underneath the boat. It 174 00:12:57,436 --> 00:13:01,316 Speaker 1: was terrifying, he says. Between the bow and stern lines 175 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: and his camera strap and the strings on the hoodie 176 00:13:04,196 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 1: of his float coat, he was caught. He couldn't find 177 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:11,676 Speaker 1: an air pocket and he couldn't breathe. I actually thought 178 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:14,676 Speaker 1: I was gonna die under there because I couldn't get 179 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: my head away from the seat. And when we were 180 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: I was underwater, so my head was up against his 181 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: seat and I couldn't get loose, and I kept trying, 182 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:31,956 Speaker 1: and finally I did get loose. When he surfaced, he says, 183 00:13:32,396 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 1: he looked around and spotted Ferna. Then I saw her 184 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,356 Speaker 1: on the bow of the boat with sort of like 185 00:13:39,436 --> 00:13:43,196 Speaker 1: one arm on the on the overturned portion. She was 186 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: like she was sort of holding on. Her eyes were open, 187 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:52,116 Speaker 1: but unseeing. He swam straight to Doug. Doug was in 188 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: bad shape, listing in the water near the Doory's stern. 189 00:13:56,076 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 1: I noticed Douglas was off just a few feet away, 190 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:05,596 Speaker 1: but he wasn't saying anything. The waves Fred says were 191 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:08,796 Speaker 1: splashing in Doug's face, so I got to hold his 192 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 1: doug us and then I noticed that he was vomiting 193 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 1: and wasn't really responding. So I cleared the vomita and 194 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 1: I tried getting some air into him. Carrying Doug with 195 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 1: one arm, he swam back to Verna. He tried giving 196 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 1: them both CPR. They didn't respond. I was so stunned. 197 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:33,396 Speaker 1: I didn't really know what to do it it was 198 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 1: way too far to swim back to Perseverance. He was 199 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:43,396 Speaker 1: desperate to get to land. The dory was overturned and 200 00:14:43,396 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 1: it was basically floating to the south away from us, 201 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: and so I tried to go over to the rock, 202 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:58,076 Speaker 1: bird Rock itself. Meanwhile, Lady had somehow clawed her way 203 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 1: onto his shoulders. So he swam that way with Verna 204 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 1: under one arm and Doug under the other and the 205 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: puppy riding piggyback. But Bird Rock was not to be 206 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:13,476 Speaker 1: there salvation. And when I got to the where the 207 00:15:13,556 --> 00:15:18,036 Speaker 1: rock was, the bird Rock, there was a blow hole, 208 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: which is like a cavity where the water goes in 209 00:15:21,676 --> 00:15:24,596 Speaker 1: and then it shoots the water out. So we had 210 00:15:24,596 --> 00:15:28,036 Speaker 1: to swim past that. That side of bird Rock is 211 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:32,956 Speaker 1: a sheer cliff some sixty feet tall, craggy covered in barnacles, 212 00:15:32,956 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 1: no place to get footing. But somehow Fred says he 213 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 1: was able to get Lady onto bird Rock. And then 214 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 1: I pushed the dog up on the rocks, and I 215 00:15:43,756 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: was trying to get a handhold so I could pull 216 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,876 Speaker 1: Vernon and dug out of the water right now into 217 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 1: the rock, but I couldn't. It was January, the water 218 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:56,236 Speaker 1: was fifty degrees and they'd been in it, according to 219 00:15:56,236 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 1: Fred's timeline, for something like an hour. They were bundled up, 220 00:16:00,996 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 1: water logged by now. Fred had on jeans of a 221 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: lore shirt and the float coat. Vernon was wearing pants, 222 00:16:08,356 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 1: a blouse, sweater, and a brown and orange nylon ski jacket. Doug, 223 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:16,596 Speaker 1: Fred later noted, was dressed like Charlie Brown going out 224 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: to play in the snow. Underneath his life jacket, he 225 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:22,396 Speaker 1: was wearing a bulky winter sweater and parka and a 226 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:26,436 Speaker 1: pair of jeans. Near the rock, the waves surged to 227 00:16:26,516 --> 00:16:30,716 Speaker 1: four feet. There's three heads bobbed up and down. They 228 00:16:30,716 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 1: were exhausted, near death, or maybe in Vernon and Doug's case, 229 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:39,996 Speaker 1: already dead. And then I knew, I was thinking. I 230 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:42,076 Speaker 1: knew that if I didn't, if we didn't get help, 231 00:16:42,116 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 1: soon all three of was gone down. Finally, Fred says 232 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: he saw a sailboat and yelled for help. They heard me, 233 00:16:52,276 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: and then they came over to where I was and 234 00:16:56,396 --> 00:17:00,956 Speaker 1: threw me a rope. We got. Vernon and Douglas were 235 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:06,036 Speaker 1: pulled up on board their boat. And then as I 236 00:17:06,076 --> 00:17:09,356 Speaker 1: was trying to get get up the ladder. My aggs 237 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:14,476 Speaker 1: were shot, and then they winched me aboard, And the 238 00:17:14,596 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 1: next thing I really knew was I woke up in 239 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:22,156 Speaker 1: the helicopter. He woke up into a nightmare. His wife 240 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:28,116 Speaker 1: was dead, his stepson dead. I'm gonna ask you point 241 00:17:28,116 --> 00:17:31,796 Speaker 1: blank about Verna and Doug. Did you kill Verna and Doug? 242 00:17:32,916 --> 00:17:38,836 Speaker 1: I did not to Fred. Verna was perfect. Their life 243 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:43,356 Speaker 1: together in Malibu was a dream. Why would he have 244 00:17:43,436 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: killed them and ruined everything? You have to imagine Malibu 245 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 1: when the tailors lived there, same epic beaches, bathed in 246 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 1: the same magic our light, but with practically no one 247 00:18:15,916 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 1: on them. It was the seventies. The innocent, squeaky clean 248 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: gidget era of the nineteen fifties was over. The coke 249 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 1: fueled eighties were just roaring into view. Malibu was on 250 00:18:32,876 --> 00:18:36,276 Speaker 1: the cusp of becoming the maximalist fantasia it is today, 251 00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:40,116 Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars mansions and Lamborghinis and Birken bags 252 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:45,436 Speaker 1: at the beach, But not yet. There were celebrities, but 253 00:18:45,516 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 1: they were low key, laid back cool. Movie star Ali 254 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:53,556 Speaker 1: McGraw lived out there with her young son and her 255 00:18:53,556 --> 00:18:58,956 Speaker 1: movie star husband Steve McQueen was nineteen seventy two, and 256 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:03,836 Speaker 1: we rented a house on that fantastic broad Beach, which 257 00:19:03,876 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 1: at the time was the widest swath of perfect sand. 258 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:12,196 Speaker 1: I love, I loved it, and it provided my son 259 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: with an incredible childhood. Their house, a rental on Broadbeach Road, 260 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 1: was a street away from the railers. And she doesn't 261 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:25,076 Speaker 1: remember this, but Fred coached her son in sports. All 262 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: of us had funky little houses left over from the fifties. 263 00:19:29,476 --> 00:19:31,396 Speaker 1: You know, sand dunes in front of the house and 264 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: the kind of flowers that only grow where there's sand. 265 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 1: My house was a funky little clapboard house, really small, 266 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:46,356 Speaker 1: three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a small kitchen, a living room 267 00:19:46,396 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 1: facing the ocean. It was when I rented it, an 268 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: absolute horror of brown wood inside, shag carpeting, brown kitchen appliances. 269 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: Back then, the celebrities had privacy. Nobody came out there 270 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:12,716 Speaker 1: to photograph Steve or Goldie Hawn or Sylvester Stallone. These 271 00:20:12,756 --> 00:20:16,756 Speaker 1: are people artists and directors and musicians. Half of the 272 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 1: rock stars had second homes there. There was a freedom 273 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:26,716 Speaker 1: to do whatever. There were tons of drugs. I didn't 274 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:30,796 Speaker 1: do drugs at that point, but yeah, of course, I 275 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:37,156 Speaker 1: mean it was the most amazing moment in Los Angeles music. 276 00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: I never met Bob Dylan and he's still out there. 277 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 1: But there, you know, there was Neil Young, there were 278 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 1: most of the Eagles. There was you know, Peter Paul 279 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: and Mary and Chris Christofferson, him and the band. You know, 280 00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:59,156 Speaker 1: all of Robbie Robertson's crowd were out there. Robbie Robertson 281 00:20:59,196 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: had moved his family there sight unseen, into Sam Peck 282 00:21:02,876 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 1: and Pau's house in the Malibu Colony because his friend 283 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:10,356 Speaker 1: David Geffen told him to the night that we arrived 284 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:13,796 Speaker 1: there thing And I was sitting there with my wife 285 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:20,196 Speaker 1: and then we heard this ungodly screaming from a woman. 286 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: So we jumped up and we ran out to the 287 00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 1: front door, trying to figure out what was going on. 288 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:33,636 Speaker 1: What was that? And we should call the police, we 289 00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:36,716 Speaker 1: should what should we do? We're running back and forth, 290 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 1: but the screaming keeps going on and on until it 291 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:49,796 Speaker 1: becomes like an odd thing and odd screaming. And as 292 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: it turned out, our next door neighbor was Diane Cannon, 293 00:21:54,436 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 1: the actress, and she was practicing primal scream he set 294 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:04,276 Speaker 1: up a studio in a former bordello called Shangola overlooking 295 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 1: Zooma Beach. Everyone recorded out there, the band and Bob Dylan, 296 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:15,476 Speaker 1: we just we found this to be kind of like 297 00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 1: a sanctuary that you could be invisible as well as 298 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:24,116 Speaker 1: be around some of the most famous people in the world. 299 00:22:24,116 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 1: It was a very unusual and great combination. The seventies 300 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 1: became pretty crazy, and there was a lot of drugs 301 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:46,036 Speaker 1: and a lot of everything going on, and when you're 302 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: just in the middle of something, it seems very natural, 303 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 1: seems very normal, so you just participate. You just hang 304 00:22:56,196 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: out and say, oh, everybody's doing it, this is cool. 305 00:23:01,316 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 1: But most of the people in Malibudan were pretty normal, 306 00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: and the electricians and the school teachers and the movie 307 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: stars all sent their kids to the local elementary school. 308 00:23:11,356 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: What was extraordinary about it was in that time, I 309 00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:18,836 Speaker 1: have to call them, real people lived there. It was 310 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: just people who did every sort of job you can imagine, 311 00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:28,876 Speaker 1: and it was so normal. So of course the sea 312 00:23:28,956 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 1: there then was clean and beautiful, and the kids swam 313 00:23:33,796 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 1: in it every single day after school. It was maybe 314 00:23:37,116 --> 00:23:39,996 Speaker 1: the last moment that a middle class family could live 315 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:45,396 Speaker 1: beachfront in Malibu. Before long, even Ali McGraw got priced out. 316 00:23:45,996 --> 00:23:48,196 Speaker 1: The house she was renting got put up for sale. 317 00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: I couldn't afford to buy it, and so a big 318 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 1: entertainer bought it, took every single thing down off of 319 00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 1: the property, and is currently on the market for sixteen 320 00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:04,116 Speaker 1: million dollars. Back then, Malibu was fun and it was sexy, 321 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:08,076 Speaker 1: and it was a little out there. It wasn't really 322 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 1: yet on the map, at least not in the way 323 00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:16,836 Speaker 1: it is now. But it was also changing, getting flashier, fancier, faster, 324 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 1: and I was losing my fascination with the place because 325 00:24:24,756 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: it was changing. This vibe that it was there before 326 00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 1: started evolving into different people and it didn't have the 327 00:24:38,036 --> 00:24:43,356 Speaker 1: same charm, didn't have the same quality of coolness with 328 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:48,236 Speaker 1: all of these wonderful people. The drugs had changed, and 329 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:52,996 Speaker 1: that changed everything. I don't know. In the beginning, it 330 00:24:53,036 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 1: felt fun and more inclusive and friendly, and later on, 331 00:25:00,956 --> 00:25:04,156 Speaker 1: you know, with hard drugs, I mean, that's all it 332 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:09,516 Speaker 1: takes you. You know, you go from a social drugs 333 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:14,436 Speaker 1: through hard drugs and ain't social anymore. And there was 334 00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:20,556 Speaker 1: a new crowd in town. It was a combination of 335 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 1: some people with money and drug dealers, and you kind 336 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:32,316 Speaker 1: of scroungy people, and there was even It went from 337 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 1: being this shangril world out there, this bit of paradise, 338 00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: into a feeling of it just felt dirty all of 339 00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:49,556 Speaker 1: a sudden. Soon the middle class, the real people, would 340 00:25:49,596 --> 00:25:53,636 Speaker 1: be edged out. People like Fred and Verna. She was 341 00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:56,796 Speaker 1: a teacher's aid. He was a civilian employee of the 342 00:25:56,876 --> 00:26:01,036 Speaker 1: naval base at Point Magoo, highly educated with the Masters 343 00:26:01,076 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: from Berkeley in naval architecture, but a government employee making 344 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 1: government money. They were raising four kids and what was 345 00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 1: quickly becoming one of the most expensive communities in America. 346 00:26:14,076 --> 00:26:16,916 Speaker 1: It would have been hard to compete, let alone hang on, 347 00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 1: but the Railer family had something very valuable. They owned 348 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 1: a house on Sea Level Drive, a private, gated street 349 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: that dead ends at one of the prettiest beaches in Malibu. 350 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 1: Their house was large and ugly, covered an orange shag, 351 00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:37,556 Speaker 1: but Fred was fixing it up, building a roof deck 352 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:43,076 Speaker 1: with panoramic ocean views. He knew what they had and 353 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 1: if they played it right, they might be able to 354 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: ride this wave of real estate and money and get 355 00:26:49,556 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 1: to live in Malibu forever. Fred and Verna bought the 356 00:27:10,916 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: house on Sea Level Drive in the fall of nineteen 357 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:16,756 Speaker 1: seventy seven. They were a new couple in love, and 358 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:21,676 Speaker 1: they had a powerful connection. Fred was a widower. His wife, Jean, 359 00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:24,836 Speaker 1: the mother of Heidi and Kirsten, had died the year before, 360 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 1: and Verna was a widow. Her husband, Bill Johnson, the 361 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 1: father of Kim and Doug, had also died by suicide. 362 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 1: People whispered lovely. Verna's hair had turned prematurely silver. The 363 00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 1: kids were all little. Heidi and Kirsten needed a mom, 364 00:27:43,876 --> 00:27:49,876 Speaker 1: Kim and Doug needed a dad. Fred was attractive, thick, curly, 365 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: dark hair, a little broody, a catch, and Verna. Everyone 366 00:27:55,716 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: in Malibu loved Verna. They found each other and it worked. 367 00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people envied Fred and Verna. 368 00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:08,116 Speaker 1: You know, they were the perfect story of yours, mine 369 00:28:08,116 --> 00:28:11,756 Speaker 1: and ours. That's Mark Hetrick, an old friend of the 370 00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:15,076 Speaker 1: family that I talked to recently. His wife, Beth, and 371 00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 1: Verna taught together at the elementary school. Mark was a carpenter. 372 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: He was helping Fred with the roof deck and they 373 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 1: all hung out a lot. He kind of could do anything. 374 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 1: I mean, he wasn't a professional contractor or a carpenter, 375 00:28:30,596 --> 00:28:32,836 Speaker 1: and he wasn't afraid to, you know, take the roof 376 00:28:32,876 --> 00:28:34,716 Speaker 1: off of his house and put a deck on it. 377 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:37,476 Speaker 1: You know, he could weld, and he you know, he 378 00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:39,156 Speaker 1: was a mechanic. I mean, he could just do all 379 00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:42,356 Speaker 1: these things. He was just very mechanical and very engineering. 380 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:46,796 Speaker 1: As a family, they were athletic and outdoorsy, always hiking 381 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:50,116 Speaker 1: or getting in the ocean. They were a hundred percent 382 00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 1: involved in their children's lives. You know, Verna was in 383 00:28:55,516 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 1: the teacher's assistance in their classes, and you know, Fred 384 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 1: was there for all of the kids all the time, 385 00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 1: and Verna was there for all the kids all the time. 386 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 1: And I mean they were the parents that every kid 387 00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 1: would want, and their family was just the most important 388 00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:18,796 Speaker 1: thing to him. Mark told me he and Beth looked 389 00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:23,676 Speaker 1: up to Fred and Verna. They were the picture postcard 390 00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:30,756 Speaker 1: Christmas postcard family of just you know, two very handsome, 391 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: intelligent people with four kids that were just delightful. Those 392 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 1: were the kind of kids that we wanted to have 393 00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 1: and the kind of the family that we wanted to have. 394 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:45,636 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna seemed pretty unimpressed by the wealth and 395 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:49,596 Speaker 1: glamor of Malibu. They weren't your you know, your real 396 00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 1: upscale Malibu people that had a Hollywood connection, you know, 397 00:29:56,036 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 1: or a movie industry of connection. Because Fred and Verna, 398 00:29:59,396 --> 00:30:04,236 Speaker 1: you know, they were you know, they were pretty settled, solid, 399 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:08,436 Speaker 1: you know, upper middle class family living there that m 400 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 1: you know, had this wonderful piece of property and they 401 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 1: were you know, and it was a wonderful place to 402 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:17,356 Speaker 1: live in, a wonderful place to raise kids. Fred in 403 00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:22,316 Speaker 1: particular did not seem concerned with appearances. You know, he 404 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:28,716 Speaker 1: was sort of not your average Malibu guy, you know. 405 00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:33,836 Speaker 1: I mean, he wasn't trying to be mister Malibu. So 406 00:30:34,076 --> 00:30:38,076 Speaker 1: was Fred affected by the whole Malibu glitz and glamour. No, 407 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:40,956 Speaker 1: not at all. Fred, you know, he didn't really care 408 00:30:40,996 --> 00:30:44,996 Speaker 1: about that stuff. He was a family man living his values, 409 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 1: and there wasn't a lot of that going around Malibu 410 00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:52,116 Speaker 1: at the time. Here's another friend in an interview with investigators. 411 00:30:52,676 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 1: We've seen so many people our age that sort of 412 00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: the man goes through this sort of midlife crisis where 413 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: they're sort of insecure and concerned with material things and girlfriends, 414 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:14,596 Speaker 1: you know, driving a poor and chasing girls, and you know, 415 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 1: sort of where their family is a drag on him, 416 00:31:19,396 --> 00:31:21,676 Speaker 1: and there were an awful lot of people like that alboat, 417 00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:26,556 Speaker 1: and you know, Fred couldn't be more different than that. 418 00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 1: Like a lot of engineers, Fred was logical and analytical, 419 00:31:32,396 --> 00:31:36,196 Speaker 1: and he was highly competent, especially in the water on 420 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:40,316 Speaker 1: the sailboat. He was meticulous about safety. Here's Mark Keatrick 421 00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 1: again in an archival interview. The kids always had their 422 00:31:45,396 --> 00:31:47,796 Speaker 1: life jackets on if they weren't in the cockpit, and 423 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 1: they had to ask an adult permission to get out 424 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:53,436 Speaker 1: of the cockpit and go anywhere else on the boat. 425 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:56,116 Speaker 1: Anytime they were ever rowing around in the dinghy, whether 426 00:31:56,156 --> 00:31:58,276 Speaker 1: it was in the harbor or whether it was over 427 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:01,836 Speaker 1: on the island, they couldn't go out of shouting distance 428 00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:05,516 Speaker 1: at the boat. Mark sailed with Fred a lot and 429 00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:09,636 Speaker 1: was in several harrowing situations with him. But whatever was 430 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:14,796 Speaker 1: going on, he said, Fred kept his composure, never never 431 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:20,796 Speaker 1: raised his voice, never shattered or got angry. Man was 432 00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:30,876 Speaker 1: extremely calm and in situations that were potentially dangerous or scary, 433 00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 1: remain calm under pressure. Fred's extensive training in the water 434 00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:39,716 Speaker 1: had taught him this. But that quality of composure of 435 00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:43,796 Speaker 1: not succumbing to panic or hysteria, it hadn't helped him 436 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:55,876 Speaker 1: say Verna and Doug's lives. Fred was the only survivor 437 00:32:55,916 --> 00:33:00,596 Speaker 1: of the dory incident, the only human survivor. The day 438 00:33:00,636 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 1: after Verna and Doug drown, Lady the beagle puppy was 439 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:09,396 Speaker 1: rescued from Bird Rock. Here's Tony Clinch, an experienced tailor 440 00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:13,036 Speaker 1: who knew the waters around Santa Cruz Island. Well, he's 441 00:33:13,076 --> 00:33:16,276 Speaker 1: telling an investigator about how he found Lady hiding under 442 00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:20,596 Speaker 1: a shrub. Were not supposed, Bob, that's how we spotted 443 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:27,116 Speaker 1: the dogs. Das dog. Maybe that's begle. It would seem 444 00:33:27,196 --> 00:33:31,756 Speaker 1: a bittersweet footnote to the tragic story. Fred's heroic efforts 445 00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:34,676 Speaker 1: in the water had not been a total waste. At 446 00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:37,956 Speaker 1: least he was able to save his dog, But the 447 00:33:38,076 --> 00:33:43,836 Speaker 1: fact of Lady that she was improbably alive, opened up 448 00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:47,596 Speaker 1: a seam in Fred's story. Fred said he swam from 449 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:51,476 Speaker 1: where the dory capsized over to Bird Rock, carrying Verna 450 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 1: and Doug with Lady on his head. Clinch didn't buy it. 451 00:33:56,356 --> 00:34:00,236 Speaker 1: With the current and the wind, just no, what I 452 00:34:00,356 --> 00:34:03,436 Speaker 1: could he have? He couldn't have in front the dog 453 00:34:03,476 --> 00:34:06,156 Speaker 1: couldn't have made it a shore. Then the claim that 454 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:10,116 Speaker 1: he hoisted Lady up onto bird Rock and Lady scrambled 455 00:34:10,196 --> 00:34:13,756 Speaker 1: up at Suli. I would define that the line of 456 00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:18,676 Speaker 1: even being could have scaled and faced Cliff must If 457 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:21,636 Speaker 1: Fred was telling the truth about where they capsized, what 458 00:34:21,756 --> 00:34:25,876 Speaker 1: he did where he swam, then Lady should be dead. 459 00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:32,676 Speaker 1: But Lady was alive. Fred's sailing buddy Dick had picked 460 00:34:32,716 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 1: her up from Tony Clinch, and soon Lady would return 461 00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:39,156 Speaker 1: to Sea Level Drive and provide a small bit of 462 00:34:39,276 --> 00:34:42,676 Speaker 1: comfort to Kim, Heidi, and Kirsten because they began their 463 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:49,636 Speaker 1: lives without Verna and Doug. Lady's inexplicable survival that was 464 00:34:49,716 --> 00:34:52,116 Speaker 1: just one of the things that made the police suspect 465 00:34:52,276 --> 00:35:11,796 Speaker 1: Fred's story was the invention of a murderer. Coming up. 466 00:35:11,876 --> 00:35:15,996 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Lost Hills, detectives come knocking. 467 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:19,596 Speaker 1: They have a lot of questions for Fred. To be 468 00:35:19,716 --> 00:35:22,676 Speaker 1: honest with you, Fred, we really don't know what much 469 00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:27,196 Speaker 1: about what's going on. We have no idea of well, 470 00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:29,276 Speaker 1: I can't say we had no idea. We do have 471 00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 1: an idea of what happened out at the island, but 472 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:40,156 Speaker 1: everything is really sketchy. So we're kind of like turn 473 00:35:40,236 --> 00:35:44,516 Speaker 1: into after the fact, somehow we need to figure out 474 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:49,596 Speaker 1: if there's a way we can figure out to make 475 00:35:49,676 --> 00:35:51,876 Speaker 1: sure that there was no file play or easy like 476 00:35:51,996 --> 00:36:04,436 Speaker 1: that's next in episode two. Quiet No Longer Lost Hills 477 00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 1: is written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's created 478 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 1: by Me and Benedair and produced by Western Sound and 479 00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:15,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 480 00:36:15,556 --> 00:36:17,996 Speaker 1: the whole season add free and get early access to 481 00:36:18,076 --> 00:36:21,156 Speaker 1: the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost 482 00:36:21,236 --> 00:36:24,676 Speaker 1: Hill Show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.