1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: It's torture. It torture is my mind, you know, I 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: don't know. It's just hard to move forward. It's hard 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: to think about anything else because I just won't have 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: him and take him and lay him to rest as 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: he asked. That's Janice Dyson McAfee. She was the last 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: woman married to John McAfee, the anti virus software pioneer, 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: before he died. When we spoke to her, his body 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: was still laying in the morgue in Spain. Even a 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: year later, she still clearly remembered the moment she found 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: out about his death. And then I saw the news. Um, yeah, 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: I just kind of broke down, you know, and I was, 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, kind of inconsolable for a while and just um, 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: really in disbelief. John McAfee has been found dead in 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: a Spanish prison cell, shortly after it was announced he 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: would be extradited to the US to face charges of 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: financial crimes. The founder of the anti virus saw where 17 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: that bears his name, had just been ordered extradite into 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: the United States on tax evasion charges. He was seventy 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: five and a wild ride of a life. It was 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: that was June one, inside the cell of a prison 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: just outside Barcelona. Medics tried and failed to resuscitate him. 22 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: McAfee was arrested in Barcelona as he was about to 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: board a flight to Istanbul in October. In a tweet 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: posted June tenth, McAfee told his one million Twitter followers 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: quote there is much sorrow in prison disguised as hostility. 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Janna said that McAfee was allowed to make three eight 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: minute phone calls a day from prison, so she talked 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: to him all the time, and she was stunned by 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: the news. I was trying to make arrangements to um 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: go and see his body, and and and get his 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: things from the prison, and just understand how it was that, 32 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, the world had found out before I did, her, 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: before his attorney did. She was also living in Spain. 34 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: She made her way over to the prison in front 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: of a group of reporters. She said, he would never 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: have done this, but he's a fighter. He's always a fighter, 37 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: and anybody that knows John, that knows him even a 38 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: little bit, knows that about him. He would never quit 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: this way. He would never take his life in this way. 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: She didn't believe that her partner would kill himself and 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: that feeling only became stronger when she went to view 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: the body. So I came into the room and there 43 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: was um, you know, glass window in between and he 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: was there and on the bourney, and so I couldn't 45 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: see anything. He was completely completely covered. Um they had 46 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: a sheet and a blanket wrapped over him, over top 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: of him. Genesis suspicions seemed to add fuel to the 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories that were already beginning to take off. He 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: would want his death to be a subject of great speculation. 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: He was a He was a wild character. He had 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: a tattoo that said whacked to remind people that if 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: he was found to commit suicide, that he didn't do it. Oh, man, 53 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: I wonder in this if the joke is actually on us. 54 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: The comparisons to Jeffrey Epstein came quickly. McAfee claimed that, 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: like Epstein, he too was the target of powerful people 56 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: who wanted him silenced. Maybe those comparisons were inevitable. Both 57 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: men died in jail awaiting trial, and McAfee stoked those 58 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories himself. In October, he tweeted from prison, I'm 59 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: contenting here. I have friends, The food is good all 60 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: as well know that if I hang myself allah Epstein, 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: it will be no fault of mine. McAfee's death raised 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: a host of other questions. He was staying in a 63 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: hotel owned by Russians that had previously been rated by 64 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: the police. Who was he working with there? Why was 65 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: he even in Spain? Anyway? We went to Barcelona and 66 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: Cambriel's looking for answers. We thought talking to one of 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: the people closest to McPhee would help, but Jana's only 68 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: deep in the mystery. Here's contributing reporter Matthew Bremner. What 69 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: kind of things were you doing? Um, you know, how 70 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: long are you there for? Roughly? In general terms? No, 71 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: I just I just don't want to go into details about, 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, the I really don't want to get into 73 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: dates and time period. The hotel where you were reportedly 74 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: staying was also a crypto mine that was owned by Russians. 75 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: Can you confirm and deny that? Okay? I can either 76 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: confirm nor deny that, okay. But what we're I mean 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: it's I mean, obviously on John's Twitter there are videos 78 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: with him appearing with Russians, So I mean something that's 79 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: in the public sphere, something in the public record. I'm 80 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: not trying to I'm not gonna catch out here, I understand, 81 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: but but I I enjoy breathing. Um. I don't want 82 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: that to to stop happening. Yeah. No matter what you believe, 83 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: whether you think his death was an international conspiracy or 84 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: a desperate suicide, John McAfee's death in a Spanish jail 85 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: was a pitiful end to the life of a one 86 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: time cybersecurity pioneer, someone whose name was synonymous with network security, 87 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: someone who was considered a technical genius before McAfee was 88 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: an alleged criminal. He was an entrepreneur who helped build 89 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: an industry that's now a pillar of Silicon Valley. It's 90 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: a story that's been mostly forgotten in the deluge of 91 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: salacious news that followed. But McAfee started from nothing and 92 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: essentially kickstarted the modern cybersecurity business. It's hard to overstate 93 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: how ubiquitous McAfee Anti virus soft where was for decades. 94 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: Just about every time you logged onto a computer, first 95 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: you see the Windows logo, then you see McAfee anti 96 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: virus software scanning, always running in the bottom right hand 97 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: corner of the screen. McAfee built a piece of software 98 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: that dominated the technology industry in the eighties and nineties. 99 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: Like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, he was a leading 100 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: tech founder of his day. Unlike so many of his peers, 101 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: McAfee had a public personality and a profile, appearing frequently 102 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: on television introducing audiences to the concept of a computer virus. 103 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: John McAfee was a walking embodiment of the early Internet industry, 104 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: both the good and the bad. He was idealistic, brash, brilliant, 105 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: and wildly successful. He made moon money off of his invention, 106 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: but then his life took a sharp turn. He squandered 107 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: his fortune. Supposedly a hundred million dollars disappeared just like that. 108 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: There were aerial accidents and deaths and escaped to Belize, 109 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: and allegations of sex with miners and allegations of rape, 110 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: accusations of murder, multiple arrests, multiple instances of fleeing the authorities, 111 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: And just when it looked like McAfee was turning things 112 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: around back in America, he makes an unlikely bid for president. 113 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: He waged an unconventional and antagonistic campaign that in hindsight, 114 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: doesn't look that different from Donald Trump's, and McAfee becomes 115 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: a very early evangelist of cryptocurrencies. He amassed what would 116 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: become a fortune in bitcoin before most people knew what 117 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: it was. That's when the government went after him. He 118 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: made one final run for his life, and it ended 119 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: in his death. You're listening to Foundering. I'm your host, 120 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: Jamie Tara Bay. I report on side were Security for 121 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. I've been a foreign correspondent for over twenty years, 122 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 1: and I spent about a decade as a conflict reporter. 123 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: I've met and interviewed terrorists, war criminals, and dictators. Throughout 124 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: my career. I've reported on men with God complexes, men 125 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: who didn't believe they had to be accountable for their actions, 126 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: men who may have gotten away with murder. In this 127 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: season The Foundering, we will tell the story of John McAfee, 128 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: how he walked the line between inventor and madman, how 129 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: despite his early good fortune, his choices led him down 130 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: the path towards a public and decades long self destruction. 131 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: Over the course of this series, you'll hear the story 132 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: of John McAfee's life and a reconstruction of his last 133 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: moments based on interviews with colleagues, lovers, friends, and family members. 134 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: Some of these people have never spoken publicly about him. 135 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: The reporting spans the glory, tracing McAfee's legacy in Silicon 136 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: Valley to his escape to Central America and his final 137 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: days on the quiet streets of Cambriel's Spain, to the 138 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: legacy of his death. Here's our reporter, Matthew Bremner, in Barcelona. 139 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: So it's quite weird to think that whilst we were 140 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: just in the morgue there and we had it confirmed 141 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: that the bodies are actually all kind of kept in 142 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: a basement, that McAfee was only a matter of meters 143 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: away from us, below our feet, in some fridge, piled 144 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: on top of other bodies. What we found will demystify 145 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: some of the lines John McAfee told throughout his life, 146 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: reveal the secrets he kept and resolved questions surrounding his demise. 147 00:09:48,280 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. One of the saw says I 148 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: was talking to, asked, how do you tell the story 149 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: of John McAfee. There are, frankly many stories, many lives, 150 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: as it were, there was the Silicon Valley tycoon, the 151 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: party animal, the spiritual guru, the international fugitive, the prophet 152 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: of cyber security, and bitcoin, the alleged murderer and rapist, 153 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: and in his last act, the death that launched countless 154 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: new conspiracies. When mccafee tells his own life story, he 155 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: always started the same way. He talks about his father, 156 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: a violent alcoholic. Here he is on ABC in one 157 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: of the things that was not idyllic, there was your father. 158 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: He said that he was raging alcoholic, that he was 159 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: abusive to you, like your mother. Nobody has an ideal life, 160 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: even short dad. When you're they have shot himself. He 161 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: shot himself. People aways looked at the best to explain 162 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: the present doesn't work that way. McAfee's father was an 163 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: American soldier based in southwest England. His mother, Joan Williams, 164 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: was a bread She gave birth to John a little 165 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: over two weeks after the official end of World War Two. 166 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: The family moved to the US not long after. Here's 167 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: Fran John's first wife. She asked us not to use 168 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: her last name. Unfortunately, his father was a drinker and 169 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: he turned He was the main drug, as they say. 170 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: But John and his mom really had the brunt of 171 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: the you know those ghosts in that guy's head. That 172 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: was a living hell. France says, these early years of 173 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: abuse haunted John and they kept company with him throughout 174 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: his life. But absolutely he was abused emotionally. John had 175 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: a tremendous, volatile temper, which is it comes from what 176 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:09,359 Speaker 1: happened to him during those years. Up until he's fifteen, 177 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: McAfee spent most of his formative years in the town 178 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: of Salem, Virginia. People close to the family told me 179 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: he was sent to live with his aunt in England 180 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: after his father died. He returned to the US in 181 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: time to attend Roanoke College once he finished high school. 182 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: He told ABC News that while he studied there, he 183 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: also sold cocaine. Math came easy to me. I never studied. 184 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: I just did what I felt like I should do 185 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: in college mc if he says, he began peddling a 186 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: product he knew he could sell, cocaine. But it's interesting 187 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: that that drug dealing was really your first foray into entrepreneurship. Yeah, 188 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: well it is. It's entrepreneurs it's it's everything, it's salesmanship. 189 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: This is such a telling interview to me on a 190 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: couple of levels. First of all, this attitude of superiority, 191 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: almost articism, I don't need to study. It comes easily 192 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: to me. Then there's the casual admission to drug dealing. 193 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: Drugs will be a major factor in McAfee's life, cocaine 194 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: in particular, and of course, his ability to spin an 195 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: idea into a business was something he replicated repeatedly. After 196 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: graduating from college, McAfee moved to Monroe, Louisiana, where he 197 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: taught Matt as part of a graduate program he was 198 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: doing at Northeast Louisiana State University. He met his first wife, Fran, 199 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: when she was an eighteen year old student in his class, 200 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: and he said that that very first day, right after 201 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: that very first class, they got together. Fran remembers it 202 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: slightly differently. I met him when I was eighteen, probably 203 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: he was teaching MATT and I walked into my classroom, 204 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: and he from the get go, he made it so obvious. 205 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it was like he latched on. He was 206 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: I won't say it was like a vulture by any means, 207 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: but he picked me out of the group to the 208 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: point that it was really embarrassing for me because we 209 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: had this whole classroom there. He made no bones about 210 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: it that he was attracted to me. In fact, I 211 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: went home that evening and I said, Mama, I've got 212 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: to get out of this classroom because I'm not going 213 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: to be able to learn maths. And of course she said, 214 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: old frand You'll be just fine. But I knew his 215 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: behavior sounded pretty aggressive, practically predatory. But he eventually wore 216 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: her down and they started dating. Once their relationship became known, 217 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: McAfee was fired by the university and he soon moved 218 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: back to Virginia. That was after the university decided that 219 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: John didn't need to be teaching school, but they allowed 220 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: him to finish out his curriculum that semester because he 221 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: was working towards his doctorate through their program. With his 222 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: academic qualifications in hand, McAfee went on to work at 223 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: a couple of high profile companies Serox, UNIVAC, Siemens, Booze Allen, 224 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: and lockeed Martin. The one who seemed to have been 225 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: most proud of was his time at NASA. He went 226 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: to work at the god Art Institute for Space Studies, 227 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: which is on the campus of Columbia University in New 228 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: York City. He was there from night for about two years. 229 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: In six McAfee described his work at NASA. In a 230 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: knop ed for Business Insider, McAfee claimed that he encrypted 231 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: the image is sent by the Tyrous Weather satellite when 232 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: he worked at NASA in ninety I asked NASA several 233 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: times about McAfee's time there. They said, yes, he briefly 234 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: worked as a programmer, but several current and former NASA 235 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: employees I spoke to could not confirm his assertions about 236 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: what he did there, and he made other claims that 237 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: he'd worked on the Apollo programs and that he came 238 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: up with the solution to ten years of data coming 239 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: in from space without any system to process it. Former 240 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: NASA engineer Jim Cameron told me this was simply not plausible. 241 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: He worked at the same Godard Institute of Space Studies 242 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: years after McAfee left. He said McAfee's accounts was an 243 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: insult to the people whose names are recorded in the 244 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: volumes of NASA's history. As you'll hear, this is a 245 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: bit of a pattern with John McAfee. He had a 246 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: tendency to tell tall tales, to exaggerate, and even straight 247 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: up fabricate. That's dint a xerox. He told one biographer 248 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: he was based in London for the company, and was 249 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: flown first class every weekend for six months back to 250 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: New York to see his family. Not true, people close 251 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: to the family said, those were just some of the 252 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: many lines and exaggerations we've come across. He would later 253 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: brag about all the journalists he'd played with, the tails 254 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: he'd spun. Eventually, McAfee made his way to Palo Alto. 255 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: He landed at a company called Omex in the early eighties. 256 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: They were one of the first companies to build storage 257 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: devices for data on glass discs that held several gigabytes. 258 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: I spoke to Rebecca Costa, a colleague at his at Omex. 259 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: She says her first meeting with John was memorable, and 260 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: I remember looking out of my office window and seeing 261 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: this guy drive up in a motorcycle with a black 262 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson looking leather jacket and show up at like 263 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: eleven o'clock in the afternoon. Now, in those days we 264 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: worked eight to five. There weren't flex hours, and he 265 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: didn't even have a a knapsack or a backpack or anything. 266 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: He just walked in and I thought somebody should call security. 267 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: Who is the So McAfee comes walking up the stairs, 268 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: and he came around the corner and I remember him saying, oh, 269 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: you must be Rebecca cost I'm John McAfee. I'm the 270 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: I had up a research and development and I was 271 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: a little taken back, and I said, well, great, um, 272 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: we were supposed to have a meeting at eight this morning. 273 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: Again he said yeah, but I was hungover in Rebecca 274 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: was one of a handful of women with senior executive 275 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: roles in Silicon Valley. She headed product development. John headed research. 276 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: His job was to design the software for the operating systems. 277 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: So I said, would you mind if I came over 278 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: to the lab and spent some time with you there 279 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: to try to understand the technology better? And and he 280 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: was very forthcoming. And it took me all of fifteen 281 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: minutes in the R and D lab to realize he 282 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: was brilliant. And I didn't I didn't care about the 283 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,239 Speaker 1: rest of it. I didn't care if he set up 284 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: a bar in R and D and drank all day long. 285 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: If if he could solve the kinds of technical problems 286 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: he was solving, then he was my guy. By this point, 287 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: John McAfee's character was set. He lived and worked according 288 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: to his own rules, and he found himself in an 289 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: environment where that was okay. He was going to show 290 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: up when he was going to show up. I couldn't 291 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: necessarily trust him to meet deadlines or stay within budget. 292 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: But I did what old companies should do with brilliance, 293 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: surround them with people that aren't as brilliant. You know. 294 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: I was one of the people that was surrounding John 295 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: to make John effective so that we could harness him. 296 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: Those days that Omes were heady, just as they were 297 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: throughout the rest of Silicon Valley. There was a sense 298 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: of pioneership, that new ground was being broken in an 299 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: industry that was still coming up with names for itself. 300 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: People were creating things that had never existed before. They 301 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: were and no rules here. There were no checks on 302 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: people's behavior. Everybody was snorting coke, everybody was sleeping under 303 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: their desks. And by the way, OMEX wasn't that unusual 304 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley. You know, you would drive by these 305 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: startups and the entire parking lot would still be full. 306 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: We didn't go home. There were days where I had 307 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: to go in and literally tell John to go home 308 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: and take a shower. He smelled bad. Those were days 309 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: of wild successes and spectacular failures. The mouse was invented. 310 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: Around this time, Apple, Atari, and Hewlett Packard were all 311 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: making their products right in the valley. The people at 312 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: Omex were creating new technology alongside those other companies, but 313 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: the products they were pushing out weren't selling. Rebecca says 314 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: the writing was on the wall for Omex, and both 315 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: she and John McAfee left the free wheeling company after 316 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: a couple of years there and when John decided to 317 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: create his own startup, McAfee and associates that mixture of 318 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: work and play, the recklessness and the chaos would be 319 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: part of the company's very foundation. That's next, Let's talk 320 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: about technology in the eighties and early nineties. Back then, 321 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: technology seemed so alien to people. In movies, computers were 322 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: consistently portrayed as evil, like in the Matthew Broderick film 323 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: War Games, where in Hello, shall we play a game? 324 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: Hollywood played on people's distrust of the unfamiliar. Folks who 325 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: did have computers were more often programmers, people who worked 326 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: with them for a living, or yes, gamers. Here's Paul Ferguson, 327 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: who's been in cyber security for over thirty years, so 328 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of hackers who wanted to know how 329 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: things work. And when you take things apart, you put 330 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: them back together and you know how they work. You 331 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: become an expert, which also five lover buildings, and then 332 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: you can build a whole industry out of it. Paul 333 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: says that it was a moment where possibilities felt endless. 334 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: The basic building blocks of today's computer technology were being 335 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: formed with little thought for the consequences. Collectively, as an industry, 336 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: we didn't really think about how some of the stuff 337 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: that we designed and built and put into place to 338 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: enable all this wonderful connectivity could be used to steal 339 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars out of your bank account or take 340 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: down the all the news sites in Estonia. In those 341 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: exhilarating days of the early Internet, McAfee was living in 342 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 1: Santa Clara. He was in his early forties, working at 343 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: Lockheed Martin, and he was already onto a new wife, 344 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: a woman named Judy. Here's Jim Lynch who lived next 345 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: door to the car ball for about ten years. There 346 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: were the kind of neighbors who had waved to each 347 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: other over the fence and chat about their jobs. He 348 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: had a phone line brought into his house a separate 349 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: one from his regular phone line, and he put a 350 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: computer there and hooked it up, and it was what 351 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: they called them bulletin boards, so it's basically a chat room. 352 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: Bullets and boards were like an early version of web 353 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: forums or social media. People could connect their computers through 354 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: phone lines and trade ideas. Jim says that McAfee was 355 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: a programmer. He was a gamer. He was obsessed with puzzles. 356 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: He'd upload computer programs onto those bullets and boards and 357 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: delve into discussions with people who had logged on from 358 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: around the world. McAfee could sense an opportunity surrounding the Internet. 359 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: He became particularly fascinated with computer viruses. Jim says the 360 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: first virus that caught McAfee's attention was one called the 361 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: Pakistani Brain. We had coffee together in the front yard 362 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: one sunny Sunday morning and he said something about, I've 363 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: got an interesting new problem to solve, and there's this 364 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: virus called the Pakistani Brain. He explained something to me 365 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: about it, what it did and uh, and that he 366 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: was fascinated with this. And then it was a few 367 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: weeks later that he said this might be the business 368 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: opportunity of a lifetime for me, and I might not 369 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: be at Lockeed any longer. The Pakistani brain virus was 370 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: a self replicating virus that automatically copied onto disks. It's 371 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: read luck wildfire. Jim says it puzzled McAfee. He took 372 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: it apart, studied it and figured out how it worked, 373 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: and with the help of a programmer named Dennis Yell, 374 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: who soon went to work for him, McAfee created his 375 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: first anti virus software program. He describes it on ABC. 376 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: I was figuring out, Oh, yeah, I can stop this yere, 377 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: I thought this year, I can do that. I can 378 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: actually removed the thing and wrote a program in a 379 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: day and a half. So mcfe anti virus was created 380 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: in a day and a half. And how old did 381 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: it worked? Four million people were using it within a month. 382 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: Four million people within a month, and McAfee went even 383 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: further to drum up publicity. Here's James Spafford, a computer 384 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: scientist at Purdue University who was active in the anti 385 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: virus community, and apparently I've seen pictures. He had gotten 386 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: a truck that he had dressed up as an anti 387 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: virus response unit with lights and big signs on it. Uh, 388 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: sort of like an amplified version of Ghostbusters doing with 389 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: the ambulance, And when companies would report a virus, he'd 390 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: drive this to their site to eliminate the virus. The 391 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: business kind of took off from there. I guess this 392 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: was late nineteen seven, early McAfee's business was really taking off. 393 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: His house now had several phone lines leading into it. 394 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: More people came into work. One person made the top 395 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: of the washing machine her workspace so she could answer called. 396 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Another was working from the kitchen table. And Paul says 397 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: the product was legitimately good. So it was a gold standard, 398 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and pretty much if there was a detection 399 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: on McAfee's you pretty much could feel confident in the 400 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: fact that it was not false positive. Right, So there 401 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: was a general consensus that there. It wasn't just a 402 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: piece of crap software scanner that it might tell you 403 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: if you were in vector or not. It was actually 404 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: quality in it. It had a good decent reputation. The 405 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: business model was simple, and McAfee was pretty clever about it. 406 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: He didn't put a price on the software he was 407 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: sending out there. It was called shareware. Anyone could download 408 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: the software on their personal computer for free, but when 409 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: the business wanted the software, they needed a license to 410 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: use it, and that's where the money was coming from. 411 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: McAfee became the go to guy in the media to 412 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: talk about viruses. They were slowly making their way into 413 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: the public's mindset as the Internet became more and more 414 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: of a thing. Here he is on PBS News Hour. 415 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: I see infections of small companies where every computer has 416 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: become infected and the company is near collapse from financial loss. 417 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: Virus expert John McAfee, president of a newly formed computer 418 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: virus association, helps companies recover from attacks. The problem is 419 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: getting worse. We're seeing a new virus arrive on the 420 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: scene at the rate of about one a month now. 421 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: Most of the new viruses are worse than the old 422 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: viruses because they are more subtle, more sophisticated, and they 423 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: cause a great deal more damage. This is a simulation 424 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: of an attack by a virus that infected four hundred 425 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: computers in Mexico earlier this year. Its effects are obvious, 426 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: but most viruses work surreptitiously, erasing data files and programs 427 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: before they're detected. McAfee and others have developed new countermeasures 428 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: called vaccines and anti viral programs that detect and neutralize 429 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: viral infections. A few years later, the scariest virus yet 430 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: came on the scene. It was called the Michelangelo virus, 431 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: and what made it different was that it was said 432 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: to infect a device but remain dormant until March six, 433 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: the birthday of the famous Italian sculptor and painter. The 434 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: virus would then override the data on that disc, destroy 435 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: the disc, and make it impossible to get that data back. 436 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: The alarm this caused sent purchases of antivirus software skyrocketing. 437 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: Here's McAfee talking to Jim Lauer on PBS News. Our 438 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: first to you, Mr McAfee, What is though, the potential 439 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: for having from this thing. Well, we know that on 440 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: the sixth of Mara, if you are infected with this virus, 441 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: it will destroy all of the data in your hard disk. 442 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: The question is how many systems are infecting. Estimates range 443 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: anywhere from fifty thousand to five million, depending upon the number, 444 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: and depending upon the number that is still infected by tomorrow. 445 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: The habit could be substantial. But you don't have there's 446 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: no way to know how many have been infected. What 447 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: depends on who you believe and and who you listen to. 448 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: But even the smallest estimate, so let's assume that only 449 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: one in one thousand computers are infected. That's sixty thousand 450 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: computers worldwide, and at an estimate of five hundreds of 451 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for each one to recover, we're still talking 452 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: sixty million dollars at the very low end in terms 453 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: of global costs. But in this case, Lara brought on 454 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: a second computer expert, a guying named Charles Rothstein from 455 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: the National Computer Security Association, and he had a different 456 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: perspective on the michael Angelo virus threattin anything you want 457 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: to add or subtract to that. As far as the 458 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: impact of this, yes, I think rs months are actually 459 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: significantly lower than that. Current estimates for virus infections by 460 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: Michelangelo in the US are currently from our group around 461 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: ten to twenty tho uh. And we also say that 462 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: it probably won't be as expensive as as Mr McAfee says. 463 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: Under certain circumstances, when they are infected, it may not 464 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: cost a million dollars to clean up, So we think 465 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: there will be fewer infections costing less. We called childs 466 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: up for this podcast. Apparently he was only a college 467 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: student when he was invited to appear on PBS News Hour, 468 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: And unlike McAfee, he wasn't selling anti virus software. I 469 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: was told I was I was being brought on simply 470 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: to provide an objective view of someone who didn't have 471 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: any financial interest. Um. You know, it's it's been said 472 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: many times in many parts of life that if you 473 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: want to find the truth, follow the money. And you know, 474 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: we had no vested interest. There was no money trail 475 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: for us in you know, inflating or deflating, you know, expectations. 476 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: But for someone who was running an anti virus company 477 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: at the time, as John was, there was certainly a 478 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: financial interest in making this perhaps a bigger deal than 479 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: it was. In the end, the virus impacted a number 480 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: of devices, closer to Charles's more conservative prediction a few thousands, 481 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: but the anti virus software industry exploded and McAfee software 482 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: dominated the desktop computer market. My recollection was that it 483 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: was truly ubiquitous. It was fair to say that they 484 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: had the leading market share at that time. Um, and 485 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: it became you know, more of a household name than 486 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: most of the other anti virus suites at the time. 487 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: They had deals YEP that preinstalled it on many computers. 488 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: By this point, venture capitalists began calling the office looking 489 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: to invest and proposing to take the company public. Jim 490 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: Lynch remembers taking at least one of those call, and 491 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: so I went into John, I said, can you take 492 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: a call? Somebody's asking about the business, And so I 493 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: handed in that call and that led to him talking 494 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: to the vcs them investing in the company with a 495 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: plan to take the company public. Jim Lynch says they 496 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: didn't need to go public the company was making so 497 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: much money, but McAfee saw this as his opportunity to 498 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: achieve another level of success in his career. The investors 499 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: brought in new management to prepare McAfee and associates first 500 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: I p O. One of the new employees, Andrea Nation, 501 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: said she found herself covering for John when his wife, 502 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: Judy would come to her with questions. Judy was kind 503 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: of like a thorn in my side, always asking questions, 504 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: questioning credit card bills, you know, company American Express bills 505 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: and everything. And I don't throw anybody under the bus 506 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: I don't, you know, like when it comes to stuff 507 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: like that. We've reached out to Judy for comment. She 508 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: has not responded to us as of this recording. The 509 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: stuff like that, Andrea mentions had to do with a 510 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 1: series of competitions that took place within the office. They 511 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: kept a running tally of who had sex with witch 512 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: colleague and where, and there was a name for the 513 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,719 Speaker 1: group of people involved with the Yeah, so they had 514 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: the Little Foxes group. And you know, you would get 515 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: points around the office for having sex and all this 516 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: other stuff, and you know I would, I would clean 517 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: Bill's desk off. And the first time he saw me 518 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: doing it, he's like, you don't have to do that. 519 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: What do you like? You know that's above and beyond. 520 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yes I do. I'm like, this is 521 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: the most points in the office. And I told him 522 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: and he's like, why did we have to get rid 523 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: of the would getting rid of these crazy people? Bill 524 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: is Bill Larson, the man tasked by investors to take 525 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: over the company's leadership. Andrea is saying that she was 526 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: wiping down his desk because other employees had had sex 527 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: on it the night before. Because in their workplace, games 528 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: sex on the new Bosses desk scored the most points. 529 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: Andrea says McAfee's office was truly bizarre. There was three 530 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: employees and they would tell us that they were witches, 531 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: and they would sit at the conference table and they 532 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: do their wiccan ceremonies. We had other people that used 533 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: to come to work in like renaissance clothing. Um one Halloween, 534 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: a guy like actually just wore a cop piece, you know. 535 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: But they were so used to just being able to 536 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: do whatever they wanted to do. And when when the 537 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: suit and tie guy came in with Bill, you know, 538 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: that was really hard for these people. You know. Bill 539 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: Lawson was the chief student taie guy. He was brought 540 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: in by venture capitalists to make McAfee and Associates run 541 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: more like a company that could go public and meet 542 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: SEC requirements. So Bill became the new CEO. McAfee was 543 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: named chief technical officer of his own company, and the 544 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: two never saw eye to eye. John was a amazing 545 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: technical genius, but he wasn't a leader. He couldn't take 546 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: the company to the next level. On what Bill Larson 547 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: did was amazing. Bill Lawson was ready for McAfee to 548 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: leave and McAfee was ready to cash out. She says, 549 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: I think it was John's mindset, you know, number one, like, 550 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: you know funck this. You know, these guys are taking 551 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: this away. But you know, I think he knew in 552 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: the back of his mind that he shouldn't be there. 553 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: Bill always told me from day one, He's like, we're 554 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: gonna get a big building and everybody's going to see 555 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: the name of the company, but it's not gonna be McAfee, 556 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: you know. Bill Lawson eventually got rid of the entire 557 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: original crew of McAfee and associates. McAfee stepped down as 558 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: an employee in nine and as a board member in 559 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: From our internal calculations, his cash disbursements and stock sales 560 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: earned him about eighty four million dollars. I spoke to 561 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: a number of cybersecurity experts who said that McAfee anti 562 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: virus software shaped computer security for decades onward. Because McAfee 563 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: introduced his product at just the right time, right when 564 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: many of today's technologies were being developed. He sparked an 565 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: entire industry built around convincing people to buy new things 566 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: that would keep their systems secure. That was his genius. 567 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: Here's Allan Lisca, who's an authority in cybersecurity. He's worked 568 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: in the industry for nearly thirty years, both as an 569 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: ethical hacker and a threat intelligence analyst. All of this 570 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: and it kind of all started with John McAfee, where 571 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: he convinced people, oh, no, you shouldn't make a more 572 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: secure operating system. Instead, you should just buy my software 573 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: and put that on the operating systems. Alan Liska says 574 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: that as more and more people went online, they were 575 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 1: told antivirus software was a must, and when that wasn't enough, 576 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: they were told they had to buy more security features, 577 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: firewalls and proxies and gateways, male security programs. McAfee set 578 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: us on the road where instead of building safer operating systems, 579 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: we buy add ons, and that hard sell continues today. 580 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: So rather than pitching people to improve Microsoft security, go 581 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: buy my thing instead, and then you know, my company 582 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: makes lots of money. So that's kind of the genius 583 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: of John McAfee, not the programming, but his ability to 584 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: sell this thing that really people should need. What people 585 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: should be doing is saying, please make more secure software. 586 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: So what he's saying is there was a moment when 587 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: software developers could have resolved to create more secure networks, 588 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: but instead they relied on anti virus software for protection. 589 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: So it begs the question did McAfee actually create a 590 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: less secure world? In some ways, this was the beginning 591 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: of the cybersecurity industry, a world we know today that 592 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: is dominated by firms that are called in when companies 593 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: like Colonial Pipeline get hacked and the gas stops pumping. 594 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: These are the people hired to fight viruses and hackers, 595 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: to deal with a tax that encrypt data and demand ransoms. 596 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: And John McAfee was kind of like the midwife and 597 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: he made bank out of it. Here's Charles Rudstein. It 598 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: was an extraordinary amount of money in any era. Today 599 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: it means you never have to work again and you 600 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: can do whatever you want with the rest of your life. 601 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: And back then it was worth some multiple of that. 602 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: So in short strokes, you know the guy hadn't made. 603 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: He had it made. But in just over a decade 604 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: McAfee will say that he squandered almost all his money. 605 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: In less than three decades, he would be hanging in 606 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: a jail cell. How did he wind up losing it all? 607 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: That's next time on foundering the John McAfee. Story Foundering 608 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Jamie Tara Bay. Sean Wyn is 609 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Matthew Bremner can bitted reporting to this 610 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: episode special thanks to Eilena Pang. Molly Nugent is our 611 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: associate producer. Sharif Yusef is our audio engineer, Mark Million 612 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: and Vander May, Andy Martin and Molly Shoots are our 613 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: story editors. Be sure to subscribe and if you like 614 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: our show, leave a review. Most importantly, tell your friends 615 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: see you next time.