1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Our subject today 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: is Mexico and it's experience with drugs and drug prohibition 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: really over the last hundred years. But that we're going 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: to cover a lot of ground. My guest today in 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: this case are two people really dear friends of mine, 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Alejandro Madrasso and Catalina Perez. Until recently, we're both professors 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: at a prestigious Mexican university called c d C I 16 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: d E, and Alejandro had founded the Drug Research Center there. 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: Catalina is also a professor there. They both have extensive 18 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: academic degrees from Mexican universities. They both received their doctorates 19 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: in law in Alejandro's case from Yale and Catalina's case 20 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: from Stanford. They've published extensively, They've been active in the 21 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: public debates over drugs and criminal justice and the military 22 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: in Mexico, and I've known them both for a number 23 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: of years. Alejandro recently joined the board of my old organization, 24 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance. Catalina and I have been on the 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: advisory board of George Soros' Foundations Global Drug Policy Program. 26 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: We haven't seen each other since before the pandemic, but 27 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: it's wonderful to have them both on. So Alejandro Catalina, 28 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on Psychoactive. Thanks 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: for the invitation, Ethan. It's a great pleasure. You've been 30 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: second to having you here, but it's still a great pleasure. Also, 31 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: I should say this is the first time I'm doing 32 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: a podcast with two guests, so this is a bit 33 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: of an experiment. Well, let's just focus specifically on the 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: drugs itself before we get into the violence and the 35 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: corruption all of that, because I think in a way, 36 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's such a huge subject. I want to 37 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: try to make sense of this for our audience. But 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, you think back to the old days right. 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Mexico has been producing opium and shipping heroin 40 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: to the United States for almost a hundred years and marijuana. 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: Mexico was for a long time the major source of 42 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: marijuana into the US, but that's now I think, being 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: displaced to some extent by US domestic production. And we 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: see heroin declining in part because entinyl has become um 45 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: so significant. But at the same time, Mexico appears very 46 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: innovative in terms of maintaining a significant role in this 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: broader economy. Well, let me put it this way. I 48 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: think that the role that Mexico has played has changed, 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: but it's simple portants has been maintained because of its neighbor, 50 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: which is the United States. I would think of Mexico's 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: role in the international drug trade in three big moments. 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: One would be one in which we were mostly small 53 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: time producers would move their poppies or later cannabis also 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: to the border and then just push it across the border, 55 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: and then the trade would take place in the United States. 56 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: Then there's a second important moment, which begins probably around 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: the eighties, when the US closes off the maritime route 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: from Colombia for cocaine from South America through the Caribbean 59 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: into the United States, and so the trade shifts. It's 60 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: not Mexican concaine, it's it's South American cocaine, but it 61 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: now comes into the United States through Mexico because it's 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: such a large border such so difficult to police, whereas 63 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: the ships along the Caribbean were easier to police. And 64 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: then I think you have to start thinking of a 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: third moment, which is now, which I think would probably 66 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: begin around the time that we began or full blown 67 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: war on drugs in two thousand six, in which it's 68 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: not just about moving South American cocaine into the United States, 69 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: but also moving precursors of synthetic drugs such as fentanyl, 70 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: and actually producing meth and crystal here in Mexico and 71 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: moving into the United States. So it's always been relevant 72 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: because of its proximity to the United States, but our 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: specific role has shifted along the years. We still produced 74 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: some opium, but it's certainly not as relevant as it 75 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: was before fentanyl. We still produce cannabis, but it's certainly 76 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: not as relevant as it was before the US legalized 77 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: and had its markets. I mean, the US has been 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: the largest production of cannabis in the world for a 79 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: long time, even before it began regulating its markets, Mexico 80 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: was second to the US. But still you guys stop 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: all your pots, and you still needed some of ours. 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: So most of our production was for experts, you know, Catalina, 83 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: can you help put this in a sort of broader 84 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: Latin American perspective, because if I look back historically, right 85 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: in Mexico, because of the border, its has this advantage 86 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: position visa the Colombia, Bolivia, Peru. I think there's never 87 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: been a period in US history when less than a 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 1: third of the heroine the US was not coming from Mexico, 89 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's been two thirds or more. But I mean, 90 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: obviously Colombia, Bolivia, Peru have played significant roles. Brazil plays 91 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: a big role in terms of export internationally. How would 92 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: you sort of like compare and contrast this sort of 93 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: role of Mexico visa vi these other prominent Latin American 94 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: countries who have been deeply involved. I think what Alejandro 95 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: was saying earlier is important. We've we have changed from 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: being a producer that exported either heroin, opioids or cannabis. 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: We were at some point the largest producer of cannabis 98 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: in the world. Two of a different type of economy. 99 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: Many of the drugs that go into the US aren't 100 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: produced in Mexico, but enter the US through Mexico. The 101 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: complexity of Mexico has to do with the fact that 102 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: we're exporting in some cases and precursors are received and 103 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: then distributed to the rest the continent, whether north of 104 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: the border to the US and Canada or south and 105 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: and it used to be the that we were also 106 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: producing and sending out to two different countries. So I 107 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: think that the problems are quite different. Some countries in 108 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: Latin America are just countries where the drugs go through, 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: and so that's one type of problem that we see 110 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: within the prohibition and the current black market of illicit drugs. 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: And then there's a different one, which is which drugs 112 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: are being produced and where are they being sent, and 113 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: so we have both of those issues in Mexico. And 114 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: then of course there's a problem of the organizations that 115 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: are commercing or producing drugs are also involved in other 116 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: solicit economies, and so it's a very complex issue. I think. 117 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: Just to answer your question more specifically, the role of 118 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: Mexico in that is that we are a transit country, 119 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: but we're also a country which receives precursors and then 120 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: we ensemple and and produce different types of drugs and 121 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: then export them. And we are also a producer of 122 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: other types of illicit drugs which are grown here, like 123 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: cannabis or poppy. I mean, obviously the US is the 124 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: principal market, but it's also drugs that are now being 125 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: exported to Europe, right Africa, westward to Asia. I mean, 126 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: we always think about some of these drugs coming out 127 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: of you know, coca being growing in Bolivia, Pru Colombia 128 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: and then shipped from there to Europe or through Brazil. 129 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: But this is Mexico scene is playing in every bigger 130 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: role in the sort of non US international market as well. Well. 131 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: You know, something that's been interesting with COVID is the 132 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: change of roles for organized crime. And you know, there's 133 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: some stories, some investigations that have been made of how 134 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: the Mexican drug cartels are now trying to control European markets, 135 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: and so it's interesting to see it's not only the US, 136 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: but they're also sending it to Europe and we're also 137 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: receiving it from from China, from other Asian countries. So 138 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: again it's a very complex question because it's not only 139 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: losing and exporting, but it's also receiving and sending to 140 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: other countries. You know, I had on a previous episode 141 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: of the former President of Columbia, President Santo sign and 142 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit. I think about this sort 143 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: of entrepreneurial tradition in Colombia and how if one looks 144 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: at Colombia's very special role different than Mexico's, but also 145 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: very special in Latin America, it wasn't just about geography 146 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: being relatively closer than Bolivia proved to the United States, 147 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: and wasn't just about terragn that there was some entrepreneurial tradition. 148 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: And then I look at Mexico and I remember twenty 149 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: years ago when meth amphetam started to become a big 150 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: issue in substantial parts of the United States, and a 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: lot of it it was being produced in domestic labs, oftentimes 152 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: backyard labs, kind of you know, low quality, low skill, 153 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: sometimes blowing up and killing you know, the producers and 154 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: their families, and a whole big domestic law enforcement thing, 155 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: and very quickly it's seen within a few years, Mexico 156 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: comes along, created these mega labs and basically sort of 157 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: displacing a fair bit of the homegrowing meth duction in 158 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: the United States by producing a higher quality myth amphetamy 159 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: that they're shipping to the US. And then you look 160 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: at fentintel. A few years ago, the story was fentatil 161 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: being exported from China either directly to the US or 162 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: via Canada, coming through the Males. It doesn't you don't 163 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: need to ship, you know, you don't need big trucks 164 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: or big boats or anything like that. And then in 165 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: the last few years, all of a sudden surprise, Mexico 166 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: like becoming maybe the number one ultimate exporter or a 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: fentinil to United States. And obviously stats are unreliable. So 168 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: I mean, is it true that one could say that 169 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: there is some kind of particular tradition that's here where 170 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: Mexican you know, criminal entrepreneurs are ready to jump on 171 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: whatever is the latest illicit product. Or is it simply 172 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: about geography. Let me jump in here. I think that 173 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: geography certainly plays a leading role. You were speaking of 174 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur culture in Colombia. Let me say this, if 175 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: there is an entrepreneur culture that we could call Mexican. 176 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: I think that it's main characteristic, and this is both 177 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: for icit and illicit markets, is that enterprise is built 178 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: by having cozy relationships with authorities. We have a long 179 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: tradition of chrony capitalism and government, and I think that 180 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: that tradition also plays a role that is relevant in 181 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: or illicit economies. So I'm not surprised when you can 182 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: find capital investments that are far more intense in Mexico 183 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: than in the US, because you know, most often than not, 184 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: producers and traffickers have some form of hoots going on 185 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: with some authority at some level, and that allows for 186 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: more capital investment that in places when where you don't 187 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: have agreements with authorities and you have to be you know, 188 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: jumping and moving around. So the border. Was it Clinton 189 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: who said it's the economy stupid in Mexico and drugs, 190 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: it's the border stupid. I mean, it's always the border, 191 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: and the border is the key factor that you have 192 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: to take into consideration. But if we're gonna look at 193 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: the kind of entrepreneurial culture that we have, I think 194 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: that we would have to look at the chrony capitalism 195 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: that we have been so invested in for such a 196 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: long time. The relationship and the ties between enterprise LISIT 197 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: or LISIT and authorities has to be a key factor 198 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: in explaining any and all entrepreneurial and divorce in Mexico ethan, 199 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: if I can jump into that, I think there's also 200 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: an issue of Mexico was one of the main producers 201 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: in the world of cannabis, and so a lot of 202 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: the drug market was geared towards producing better or more 203 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: cannabis which would be exported to the US or opioids. 204 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: And with the fentanel crisis, opioid prices have gone down 205 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: and so there isn't a market anymore for people to 206 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: grow poppy and to produce opioid, and the same thing 207 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: has happened with cannabis. I had a student a few 208 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: years ago that did a study about legal cannabis flowing 209 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: into Mexico from the U S. And and it's quite 210 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: common and there isn't a lot being done about it. 211 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: And so the Mexican Canada cannabis markets are falling because 212 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: we do have a lot of things coming in from 213 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: the US from the legal cannabis market in the US, 214 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: and so it's also a question about people that used 215 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: to distribute cannabis or now seeing that market isn't profitable anymore, 216 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: so what are the options? And the market right now 217 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: is for fentanel. So I think it's also just a 218 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: question of market opportunity which is coming from the US 219 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: and the need for substitution. You know, they wrote a 220 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: book on the internationalization of US criminal law enforcement, wrote 221 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: a book called Cops Across Borders, and I looked at 222 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: the history of transnational crime and law enforcement, and it 223 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: was an old transition of the contra bondista coming out 224 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: of Mexico. And it could have been smuggling alcohol during 225 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition. It might have been smuggling opium. It might 226 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: have been smuggling cattle, or it might have been questioning 227 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: people or commodities or electronic whatever it might be. There's 228 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: that long tradition, but in some respects, a lot of 229 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: it seemed relatively tame when you look back in the 230 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: old days, and now it seems a lot less tame. 231 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: That this economy is becoming I don't know, much more dynamic. 232 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know that it's a growing 233 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: percentage of Mexico's GDP. It's not like Afghanistan or opium 234 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: looms so large, but it does seem bigger, more dynamic. 235 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: Is that fair to say. I think it's fair to 236 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: say that it's bigger insofar as particularly. I think the 237 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: biggest shift was when the cocaine route started passing through Mexico. 238 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: That opened up a market that was probably far more 239 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: profitable than cannabis and heroin put together. And that was 240 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: the mid eighties or so. It started in the middle, yeah, 241 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: the mid eighties and into the nineties, So that's one 242 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: factor that one needs to take into consideration. It is 243 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: bigger because as cocaine started moving through Mexico instead of 244 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: through the Caribbean. Basically, as it moves from the coast 245 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: of Colombia, or moved from the coast of Colombia or 246 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: from the southern part of the Hemisphere through the Caribbean, 247 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: it stopped over in a couple of island but it 248 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: was not necessarily anywhere, and you could have your pilots 249 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: ship it or fly it basically all the way from 250 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: Colombia into the United States. Whereas when it started going 251 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: by land through Mexico, then the people that move it 252 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: through the land become much more important, and so as 253 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: that happened, the bargaining position of the Mexican traffickers visa v. 254 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: The Colombian producers became much more important, and so the 255 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: negotiations there tended to leave more of the utility of 256 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: the market in Mexico rather than Colombia. And so it 257 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: is bigger as it is bigger since cocaine, I think, 258 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: but it's also changed radically in terms of what kind 259 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: of enterprise that is, and that has to do directly 260 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: with Mexican government policies regarding prohibition. And what I mean 261 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: by that is that it used to be a logistics enterprise. 262 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: It used to be entrepreneurs trying to run things from 263 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: point A to point B. But then in the two 264 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: thousands early two thousands it started becoming a territorial business, 265 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: and that is you didn't need to control the logistics 266 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: or know how to move the stuff around. But because 267 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: prohibition became more intensely enforced, partly because of pressure from 268 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: the US after the Krena case in the mid eighties, 269 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: but also because we had this is explained that the 270 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: Kiki Camarady case was a d agent in Mexico who was, 271 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, captured and murdered. That was the year when 272 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: I was doing my graduate research, and I was actually 273 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: working the State Department's Narcotics Bureau, and I had access 274 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: to classify cables coming back and forth, and I just 275 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: remember the impact of the kidnapping and torturing killing of 276 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: the d E agent and Carey had a huge impact 277 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: on sort of somewhat on public consciousness, certainly on the 278 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: kind of elite federal law enforcement at that time. I 279 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: think it's a huge shift. I think that symbolically it 280 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: was very important because it made the d A agents 281 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: feel vulnerable away they had felt before, and so they 282 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: had to be far more aggressive. And the U. S 283 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: Government also felt more vulnerable and therefore really bore down 284 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: in its diplomatic pressure on the Mexican government. And as 285 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: you said, it wasn't only the kidnapping and murder, but 286 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: the torture and the brutal torture that he was objected to. 287 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: So he became a symbol and a rallying cry for 288 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: US enforcement agencies, which then pressured the Mexican government to 289 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: do a far more aggressive crackdown on trafficking that had 290 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: ever done. And that crackdown changed the incentives because you 291 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: no longer needed to move stuff from point A to 292 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: point B, but you actually needed a lot more cloud 293 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: from authorities, and you needed a lot more firepower to 294 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: protect that goods that you were moving from point to 295 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: point B. You could think of it as, you know, 296 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: a bit of an arms race after the Cama in 297 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: a case in which both the US government but particularly 298 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: the Mexican government started putting in a lot more effort 299 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: into repressing trafficking, and all the traffickers started investing in 300 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: far more firepower than they had before. But there's a 301 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: particular shift in the year two thousand, or around the 302 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: year two thousand that I think changed the nature of 303 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: the game. An indigenous guerilla uprising in Chiapas, the Sapatista 304 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: movement in that kind of like shook the establishment because 305 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: there hadn't been political violence in something like twenty five years, 306 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: and certainly it hadn't been a Sailian in media as 307 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: the Sapatista rebellion. And so the Mexican government apparently decided 308 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: to train special forces in counterinsurgency, and so they sent 309 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: a group of special forces to be trained in the 310 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: United States by what was left of the School of 311 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: the Americas and these special forces when they came back 312 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: to Mexico in the nineties and particularly in the late nineties, 313 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: the government policy regarding the Sapatista rebellion had changed. It 314 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: was no longer about counterinsurgency, but it was more about 315 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, spin control in the media. So what to 316 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: do these special forces that had been trained in counterinsurgency 317 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: in very brutal tactics in the US, and then they 318 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: were sent not to do the counter insurgency worked that 319 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: they were trained to do, but they were sent as 320 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: police in the drug enforcement Agency in the north of Mexico, 321 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: and they dissected, they defected to the drug traffickers and 322 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: started an elite cartel of themselves called the sets. And 323 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: so I think that this logic, the military logic of 324 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: the SETAs, which is territorial and not about logistics, also 325 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: became a real game changer in what happened. And you 326 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: really started with an arms race in the years two 327 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: thousand and then of course when we fully militarized prohibition 328 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: starting in two thousand and six, it all went cahoots, 329 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: It all went berserk, because the logic is not about transit, 330 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: but it is about firepower and territorial control. We'll be 331 00:18:49,160 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: talking more after we hear this. Cally, let me turn 332 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: to you here. When we see this dramatic escalation, I 333 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: think it's a dramatic escalation of violence beginning. I guess 334 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: when President Calderone comes to power and launches a really 335 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: serious drug war. When he sees in the serious drug war, 336 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: I mean, is that a sort of fundamingly different than 337 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: what we can think about sort of twenties, you know, 338 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: what had been going on and next over the last 339 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: fifty years, it's completely different. I think there's a breaking 340 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: point in two thousand and six that you can see 341 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: in terms of homicide. For example, we had declining rates 342 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: of homicide before two thousand and six, and then in 343 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, President Calderon, who had won the 344 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: elections actually against our current president Lopez Rador, but he 345 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 1: won't buy a very small margin, it was less than 346 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: one percent, and once he was given the definite win 347 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: for the election, he decided to declare the war on rugs. 348 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: And it was basically he came out dressed as a 349 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: military and said, we're going to stop the drugs that 350 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: are going to our families, We're going to protect our kids, 351 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: and he basically launched a war against our own population. 352 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: By the end of his first year in term, there 353 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: was more than fifty thousand soldiers that were being deployed 354 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: in different parts of Mexico, and we saw an increase 355 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: in different types of violence. One of them was, as 356 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: I said, homicides. We also saw shootouts with the military 357 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: starting to appear all across the country, and where something 358 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: that I've studied and documented here in at Sea there, 359 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: which is basically every time there was a shootout, there 360 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: were very few survivors. So we had the military going 361 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: out and having, you know, something that looked like extrajudicial 362 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: executions in this supposed war against drugs. And then there 363 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: was also something they said was we're going after the 364 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: heads of the cartels, and that made something else happen, 365 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: which was the breaking down of the big cartels. And 366 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: suddenly we start seeing all these other cartels, smaller cartels 367 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: appearing and fights within the bigger cartels, which also created 368 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: another type of violence. So so we had the military 369 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: fighting the drug cartels, new drug cartels coming up and 370 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: fighting for territory, and we saw an increase in other 371 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: types of crimes, there were kidnappings went up carceft. For 372 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: the first time in Mexican history, we started seeing that 373 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: the main cause of women's homicide was firearms and no 374 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: longer domestic violence. And that was another shift in violence 375 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: because Mexico was not known as a particularly violent country 376 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: for many decades before that. I mean, now I think 377 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: the homicide rate must be triple or quadruple what it 378 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: is in the US, and I think the country as 379 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: a whole has a homicide rate of maybe thirty thousand, 380 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: which is really equivalent to not the worst, but sort 381 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: of the second tier of the most violent cities in America. 382 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: You also have to, you know, see the different parts 383 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: of the country. To go Tomas, the homicide rates even 384 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: higher than that, whereas if you come to Ascalliantes, where 385 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: see the one of the homicide rate is much lower. 386 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: So you know, you say thirty over one hundred thousand, 387 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 1: and and that's across the country, but in some areas 388 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: of Mexico it's a lot higher. It's gone up to 389 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, a hundred and twenty over one hundred thousand. 390 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: Saline is pointing out to the differences and how it 391 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: impacted the country just to give you an idea. At 392 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: some point in I believe it was two thousand ten 393 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: or two thousand elevens which sits across from a pass 394 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: on the border, had a homicide rate that was higher 395 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: than back that which at that time was occupied by 396 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: US troops. So we had something like you know above, 397 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: nearing two hundred homicides per hundred thousand people, whereas in 398 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: two thousand six across the country we had eight homicides 399 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: per hundred thousand people. In the country, we now have 400 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: thirty homicides you say, correctly, homicides per hundred thousand people. 401 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: But in what is the crisis was so bad that 402 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: we exceeded two hundred homicides for thirty people and the crack, 403 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, what really changed everything is two thousand six, 404 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: And as Catalina was pointing it out, it was a 405 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: politically motivated move by the incoming president. Then there was 406 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: no violent crisis, there was no criminal crisis, There was 407 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: no real national wave of violence in two thousand six. 408 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: In Mexico. There were visible homicides that were very how 409 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: shall I say, very performative, you know, beheadings and stuff 410 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: like that in min and on the border of Tamaulipas 411 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: and the United States. But when you look at the numbers, 412 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: the homicide rate was still going down. We were becoming 413 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: a more Pacific country up until the time that President Calron, 414 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: and they cost context of a highly questioned election, decided 415 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: to dress himself up as a military and launch a 416 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: war on drugs. In my opinion, he was trying to 417 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: emulate what George Bush had done with the War on Terror. 418 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: You know, both had had a highly questioned election and 419 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: both became very popular in the middle of the war. 420 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: The differences Bush didn't create nine eleven and he didn't 421 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: launch a war within the territory of his own country. 422 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: Calderon created out of nothing the war of drugs in Mexico, 423 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: and he launched it within his territory and against his population. 424 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: And the difference with what happened with one war and 425 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: the other well is now visible. Mexico is in a 426 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: deep deterioration of its social and institutional context. Prior to 427 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: two thousand six, Now do you think that decline and 428 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: violence would have continued but for Calderon's you know, stepping 429 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: up the drug war at that time, Because I remember 430 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: one of the theories was that you know, for seventy years, 431 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: Mexico is essentially a one party clasi democracy the Prey, 432 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: and that part of what happened is that there were 433 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: understandings between in the gangsters and powerful leaders in the 434 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: pre which dominated not just the federal government but most 435 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: state governments. And that then, you know, two thousand comes along, 436 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: I think it was, and for the first time, you know, 437 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: the opposition party, the Panamore kind of center right party, 438 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: and Vicente Fox gets elected and that a lot of 439 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 1: those old arrangements sort of break down. At the same 440 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: time that you have beginnings of meth amphetamine, you know, 441 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: beginning to come into Mexico and you know, new markets 442 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: in that way, Mexico's really becoming dominant in the cocaine 443 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: trade as well, the heroine stuff picking up again. So 444 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, was Calderone just simply a kind 445 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: of cynical ploy or was he responding to something real? 446 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: I have to say this outright, I think it was 447 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: a cynical political move. I don't think he was responding 448 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: to something real. All of what you said is true. 449 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: The cartels were getting more money from the you know, 450 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: cocaine from South Americans with the eighties and nineties, there 451 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: were some fractures and I'm breaking ups. There was more 452 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: political part pluralities of the protection racket was harder to 453 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: hold on to. And yet homicides went from twenty by 454 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand to eight by a hundred thousand in 455 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: two thousand six. The numbers tell us very clearly that 456 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: through this whole period in which Mexico was becoming more 457 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: important to drug trade, in which cartels were becoming more fractured, 458 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: all of that, we stabily became a safer and safer 459 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: and safer country. Two thousand six is as the hiatus. Undoubtedly, 460 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: when you look at the statistics, life expectancy in Mexico 461 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: dropped by almost two years between two thousand five and 462 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: two thousand ten. And that's the period of time in 463 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: which which Mexico invested most money in its health system. 464 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: So all indicators of health we're going up, and that's 465 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: pointing to a bigger life expectancy. The only variable that 466 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: explains the lowering of the life expectancy in Mexico is 467 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: that we started killing our kids, young male adults, and 468 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: that shift is two thousand seven two two and two. 469 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: It's the magnitude that really changes the game, and it 470 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: has everything to do with the Calton administration beginning in two. 471 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: One of the hypothesis that has been put out there 472 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: is that there were these arrangements, as you said, at 473 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: the local level, where you know, the police or maybe 474 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: political members from the political parties would look away or 475 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: make deals with organized crime, and there were all these 476 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: arrangements at street level even to deal and organize crime. 477 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's not always possible and it's not always 478 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: the task of the police to completely eliminate crime, but 479 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: it's also to organize it. You know, you can sell 480 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: illicit products from China in these corners here, but you 481 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: can't sell it over there, and you can't do you know, kidnappings, 482 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: but maybe we'll allow some type of other thefts. And 483 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: so one of the hypothesis is that at the moment 484 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: that the military was deployed, all of those local arrangements 485 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: were broken and nothing was there to substitute it, because 486 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, the way that the militarization works is that 487 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: the military is deployed as an occupational force and it 488 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: brings peace to a zone, well at least at a 489 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: short term. But then you know, the police and all 490 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: the all these other arrangements breakdown, and then when the 491 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: military is retired, everything is broken and there's no longer 492 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: a police force to rearrange what was already there. So 493 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and all these are hypothesis, it hasn't been tested, 494 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: but we do know that there was a big illicit 495 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: economy which worked in some type of arrangement where you know, 496 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: it was kind of peaceful, not not very peaceful. So 497 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: we don't know, you know, would it have blown up 498 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: eventually into something similar to what we look like what 499 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: we have today, But we do know that there is 500 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: a causal effect between the strategy you that's President Calton 501 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: took and what we're seeing today. And when we describe 502 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: the violence I mean and the levels of homicides, and 503 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: obviously there's one portion the normal violence that goes on, 504 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of domestic violence and street violence 505 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: that isn't related to all of this bigger stuff directly 506 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: at least, And then there's the violence committed by the 507 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: drug gangs. And then there's the violence being committed by 508 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: the security services, by the police, by the military who 509 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: may be in cahoots with the gangs, who may not 510 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: be you know, I mean, is most of the violence 511 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: being committed by the gangs and a small proportion by 512 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: the security forces. Or is it actually so muddled because 513 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: there's so much corruption at this point going on that 514 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to break it out. I mean, Catalina, how 515 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: would you answer that? We know stories. The most recent 516 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: scandal was Canadal sim Foegal, who was Defense Secretary with Calton. 517 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: He was accused in the US for having supposedly receiving 518 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: money from the Beltrand Labels, one of the big cartels 519 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: here in Mexico, and he was accused of trafficking or 520 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: allowing heroin to be trafficked into the US. And so 521 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: we know that these exists, and and there's also some 522 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: studies that show that it's it's politically motivated in some cases. 523 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: In some some spaces it's you know, you give me money, 524 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: I'll give you protection, and then I'll allow the whatever 525 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: business you have to go through. In other cases it's 526 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: more politically driven. So there's the political party, maybe there 527 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: are elections, and so the cartels are given protection in 528 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: exchange of having a rackets in that state. And and 529 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: so it's politically driven and not just economically in the 530 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: sense of you get paid off. There's different ways in 531 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: which this happens, but but it does show how vulnerable 532 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: the Mexican authorities and the Mexican system is big power 533 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: and the economic power of the cartels, and and and 534 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: I think that's you know, one of the things that 535 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: we've seen. We've also seen that after two thousand and 536 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: six and with the deployment of the military, the drug 537 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: cartels started seeing that, you know, they were going to 538 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: be shootouts, and so they needed better weapons. And so 539 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that we have seen is how 540 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: the drug cartels now have you know, really potent equipment, 541 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: which by the way, a lot of those guns and 542 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: armament comes from the US, from your legal market, and 543 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: it comes into the Mexican market illegally. But now there's 544 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: an armament race within our country, which which authorities are 545 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: trying to keep up with the cartels to ensure that 546 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: they have enough firepower. And then the cartels, with all 547 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: that money and the access that they have two consend 548 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: the US, you know, are buying new weapons and they're 549 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: all it's basically what we're we're fighting with here and 550 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: what we're seeing are you know, Mexicans killed with inside 551 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: the country. So basically the violence is mistat the size 552 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: because even when Calderon leaves office at the end of 553 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: twelve and he's replaced by Enrage Pennonieto from the old 554 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: pre that had ruled Mexico for most of the twentieth century, 555 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: and now by Lopus Overdoor a k a. Armlow, the 556 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: current president. I mean, it seems the violence levels are 557 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: as high, if not higher, than they wanted to Calderon. 558 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: Is that just because things shifted in a way where 559 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: we're just dealing with a whole new phenomenon and that 560 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's there's just almost no way to deal 561 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: with it at this point. I think there's something to that. 562 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: I think that Calderon broke the damn in two thousand six, 563 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: changed the game completely, and now it's very difficult. And 564 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how coloqual I can be in this podcast, 565 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: but it's very hard to put the ship back in 566 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: the baby even and so Callon brought it out and 567 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: now it's very difficult to put it back in. But 568 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: let me be a bit more specific about that. I 569 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: think that we see an increase in violence. When you 570 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: look at the curve of homicides, for instance, you see 571 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: a constant increase in violence from two thousand seven through two. 572 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 1: Then it kind stabilizes two thousand ten, two thousand eleven, 573 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: and it starts declining in two thousand eleven into two 574 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: thousand twelve. In two thousand twelve, we have a change 575 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: of administration and Penia comes in. The downward tendency continues slightly. 576 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: It is a slight downworker tendency, but it's there, and 577 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: then it starts going up again in two thousand fourteen. Now, 578 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: the one thing that did happen between two thousand eleven 579 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: and two thousand fourteen is that the military had a 580 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: less prominent role in government at the beginning of the 581 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: Pinion administration. Then in two thousand fifteen two thousand sixteen, 582 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: the military take again an important role in government, and 583 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: there's actually legal reforms being pushed through to allow them 584 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: to legally do the work, the security work that they've 585 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: been doing, because, by the way, the decision to bring 586 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: out the military to substitute police was unconstitutional and illegal, 587 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: and it stayed on constitutional legal for several years. And 588 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: so in two thousand and sixteen, the military push the 589 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: Peni administration to pass a law, the Interior Security Law, 590 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: And in this context, in the debate. It is about 591 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: the same time that we have the debate for legalizing 592 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: military policing that homicides start going up again. They keep 593 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: on going up through the end of the Peon administration 594 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: into the lopesord of administration. There's a small downward trend 595 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the COVID epidemic, but then it's 596 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: skyrockets again. And right now we are at levels that 597 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: are slightly higher than the peak during the Caldon administration. 598 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: After studying this for now twelve years, I'm increasingly convinced 599 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: that the national catastrophe that we have has as its 600 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: most important explaining and catalyzing factor military station of public security. 601 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: And you can look at it across time and it 602 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: plays out, and you can look at it across territory 603 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: and it plays out, and you can even look at 604 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: it across tactics. And this is something that was very scary. 605 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: The beheadings, the heads being rolled into the dance floor 606 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: at a nightclub in Luapan in two thousand and six. 607 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: That kind of performative violence in which dismembered bodies are 608 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: placed in very visible positions is precisely the kind of 609 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: training that they set us had when they were military 610 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: and being trained in counterinsurgency in the United States. The 611 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: testimonies from the SETAs correspond exactly due to that kind 612 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: of performative violence in which dismembering bodies and setting up 613 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: a perimeter so as to delineate a territory and do 614 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: it in a way that makes it unequivocal who is 615 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: performing the violence is something that you can see consistently 616 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: from the training of the Special Forces in the nineties 617 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: to the SETAs in the early two thousand and then 618 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: it becomes metastasized, as you say, throughout the territory. From 619 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: culturally speaking, you know, you have this phenomenon or what 620 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: they call the narco corridas narco the songs, the celebration 621 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: of the narcos, and so here you have these narcos 622 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: cutting off hair. It's really acting effectively as terrorists, right, 623 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: terrorizing communities. I'm sending a message to other gangs into 624 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement, but also terrorizing the local population. Yet we 625 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: have these songs being done and you know it's celebrating them. 626 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: Is you know they kind of beloved gorillas, robin hoods 627 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: and all this sort of stuff. Why was that and 628 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: is that still going on? Even though in the wake 629 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: of all this violence, the gorridos have a long history 630 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: of being a way of transmitting news in Mexico since 631 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: the nineteenth centuries. Gorridos are basically songs that tell epic 632 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: stories of cultural heroes that are most often lower class, 633 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: rural cultural heroes who are deemed criminals by authorities. So 634 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, you have gorridos of bandits in the nineteenth century, 635 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: or of tobacco traffickers when the tobacco was a government 636 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: monopoly in the nineteenth century. Then during the US Prohibition 637 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: you have the corridos tequileros carrillos, which are gorrido's written 638 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: about traffickers of tequila into the United States. And that's 639 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 1: actually very interesting because when you look at those corridos 640 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: and then you look at the narco corridos of the 641 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties when they came back into force 642 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: with narco traffickers now as a protagonist, specifically drop traffickers, 643 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: you see a pattern that is very specific. Mexican authorities 644 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 1: are not the enemy. It is the United States Border 645 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: Patrol that's the enemy. And they have a special word 646 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: for it, and it's the ring ches, which is a 647 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: deformation of the Texas Rangers. So when you look at 648 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: the Tequileros, the corridos te Quileros, and you look at 649 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: the early corridos in the seventies, eighties, nineties, and even 650 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: the early two thousands, the authorities in Mexico are not 651 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: portrayed as the enemy. It is during the Calderon administration 652 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: that you start finding corridos speaking more, much more openly 653 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: of confronting Mexican authorities, not US border, not traders, not 654 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: rival bank gangs, not former allies who be trade And 655 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: so there is the shift during the warr drocks on 656 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: that culture of carrillos, and the fact that the naticles 657 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: so successfully tapped into that cultural stream tells you that 658 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: didn't see them as terrorists, at least not originally, and 659 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: many times they don't see them asterists, but rather as 660 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: insurgents in some way. And that's what's most worrisome is 661 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: that the political categories of who is doing law enforcement 662 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: and who is doing terrorism are completely blurred at this time. 663 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: And they're completely blurred because it is very difficult to 664 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: tell who is terrorizing the population because both authorities and 665 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 1: criminals use very bloody signals to as you mentioned, established 666 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: their authorities. So torture is a common practice among Mexican authorities. 667 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: Extra judicial executions, as Catalina has a very famously documented 668 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: in Mexico, are are ways in which the authorities also 669 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: perform violence in a way so as to terrorize specific populations. 670 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: And so you know, the population and it's caught in 671 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: between these very terrifying groups of people who are exerting 672 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: violence in a way that wants to be visible. And 673 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: we have to be very careful about that because I 674 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 1: think that points to a decomposition of the idea of 675 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: a political community. The big problem that we have is 676 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: the legitimacy of authorities in Mexico, especially the police. If 677 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: you see surveys about you know, trust and authorities are 678 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: local police are usually at the very bottom of the 679 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: you know, the the authorities along with politicians there they're 680 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the list of authorities and the 681 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: trust of Mexicans and two authorities. Let's take a break 682 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: here and go to an ad. I wonder sometimes I 683 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: look at the levels, you know, when you see these 684 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: periodic reports of corruption of governors, of senior federal officials 685 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: in Mexico, you know, being threatened or baby being killed, 686 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: or being charged with corruption. I wonder at times if 687 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: a governor or, for that matter, I mean I even 688 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: wonder if a president seriously wants to go in a 689 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: very systematic way to target some of the biggest criminal organizations, 690 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: do they have to worry about their own personal security 691 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: or their children. I look, now you have your current 692 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: president Omlo, and he's declared he doesn't want to continue 693 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: the old drug war of Calderone. He wants to I 694 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: don't know what was the expression, and give him a 695 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: hug not whatever it is, right, Hugs not bullets, Hugs 696 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: not bullets. Right. And I was reading recently about complaints 697 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: by people, you know, Mexicans who are living along the 698 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: West coast, you know where Jalisca, Jalisca Jalisco is and 699 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: mihaw Kind is. And they're saying, God, I mean, all 700 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: all the authorities are doing here is just trying to 701 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: keep the two gangs apart from one another, while those 702 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: gangs are extorting from UH and taxing us, just trying 703 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: to move around. But you know, it's not to say 704 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: that Amlo is scared of them. But I do wonder 705 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: how high up does the feeling of fear, even among 706 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: the most senior officials go that something could happen to them. 707 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: The short answer is, I don't think they can go 708 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: after these guys seriously. And they can't go after these 709 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 1: guys seriously because Mexico has done a very poor job 710 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: of setting up professional institutions for investigation, for police work, 711 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: and even for the military. You say the military have 712 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,479 Speaker 1: a reputation of being less corrupt. Yes, but I fear 713 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: that that's a reputation. It's not necessarily the truth. Here. 714 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: You have to understand a little bit why the security 715 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: and just the separatus of the state it is so deficient, 716 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: and that has to do with the way things played 717 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: out during the Peri regime. The pr I was the 718 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: hegemonic political party that completely dominated politics in Mexico from 719 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: two around about the early nineties. So you basically had 720 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 1: a one party system with nominal elections, and that meant 721 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: that most of the repressive apparatus of the state was 722 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: subjected to this very authoritarian political regime with very little 723 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: checks and very little supervision over it. So when we 724 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: started transitioning towards a competitive electoral system in which the 725 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: hemogemonic party lost power throughout the nineties. It congealed finally 726 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,720 Speaker 1: in the year two thousand when the presidency was lost 727 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: the pure I lost the presidency to the pan to 728 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: the to the right wing party. But it had been 729 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: happening throughout the nineties. I mean, it didn't just happen 730 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: in one day. There were governorships, and they were cities, 731 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: and there were congressional positions that opened up. In that 732 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: transition towards democracy. We did not reform the security forces, 733 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: which were basically designed and operated as a repression apparatus, 734 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: are selectively repressive apparatus that didn't really need technical competence 735 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: to pursue and prosecute. And so that broke consists him 736 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: went into this new democratic, politically competitive system in the 737 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: year two thousand and and the political control that could 738 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: be exerted under the authoritarian regime no longer could be exerted. 739 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: But the apparatus was basically the same, and so the apparatus, 740 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,760 Speaker 1: the police apparatus, the military apparatus, the judiciary apparatus basically 741 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: became free agents. And so they are now free agents 742 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: that maximize the rents that they can pull out of 743 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: the system. They're not technically competent, and so you will 744 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: hardly be able to face these criminal organizations which have 745 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: been growing. With the police, the prosecutorial, the judicial, and 746 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: the military apparatus that you have. What you can do 747 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: is keep saying that you need more resources to do 748 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,879 Speaker 1: it and keep growing that apparatus. And so what we've 749 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: been doing is we've been investing a lot of money 750 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,720 Speaker 1: in police and the military, but not getting particularly better 751 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 1: police forces. Prosecutors, better judges are better militaries. So basically 752 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: what I'm driving at here is that the political the 753 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: politicians don't have the tools that they would need to 754 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: face organized crime because they don't want to do the 755 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: long term investment that it would take to reform all 756 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: these institutions. I mean, you know, the United States launched 757 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: this Plan Plan Merrita right to provide o ethic over 758 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: the years, billions of dollars to Mexico to help basically 759 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: with the drug war, and my understanding with Andrew Obama, 760 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: there was more of a push towards doing things like 761 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 1: training of the sorts that should theoretically make a difference. 762 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, with all of that investment 763 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: that happened, at least I presume under the Obama days, 764 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: you know what keeps it from really taking whole And 765 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: what I wonder is that if you're working in this 766 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: system and then you're finding out, whether privately or in 767 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: the media, that some of the most senior people involved 768 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: in law enforcement and the judiciary, the person who is 769 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: the drugs are of Mexico, you know, key generals, that 770 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: it turns out they were taking money from major drug traffickers. 771 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: Even somebody who wants to be well trained and be 772 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: a serious conscientious investigator has to look around him. He's 773 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: seeing journalists getting killed, He's seeing other law enforcement getting 774 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: killed at various levels. He's seeing the most senior people 775 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: ultimately landing up to turn out to have been in 776 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: bed with major traffickers. It seems like the situation where 777 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 1: the corruption and maybe intimidation is so pervasive that it's 778 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: almost a hopeless situation to imagine that there's going to 779 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 1: be some turning around on this. Here's a problem on 780 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: that narrative. I mean, it's true, but here's a problem 781 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: with it. You're looking at it from the perspective on 782 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: the individual who wants to do right, and the solution 783 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: is not going to come from the individual to what's 784 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: to do right. What you need to do is you 785 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: have to change the structures of the system. And the 786 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: key change in the structures of the systems is you 787 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: have to have supervision and trans parency. So you know, 788 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: Obama can throw all the money at once at security 789 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: in Mexico through the Very Die initiative. But if the 790 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: Mexican authorities do not have civilian supervision over military authorities, 791 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: or if they don't have transparency in the way the 792 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: Attorney General's office works and transparency in the way the 793 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: judiciary works, then all that opacity is going to be 794 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,399 Speaker 1: just putting money into a black box and you don't 795 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: know how it's spent, and you don't know that it's 796 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: spent in the things that should be spent in, or 797 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: just buying more expensive toys. So it's not about a 798 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: good person wanting to fight the system. The solution is 799 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: not going to come from goodwill. The solution is going 800 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: to come from intelligent structural institutional change, and that change 801 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 1: comes with more transparency. And the tragedy of this whole 802 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: situation is that as violence has grown in Mexico, the 803 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: punitive discourse gains more political attraction and the punitive discourse 804 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 1: usually leads to more opaque laws and less civilian supervision 805 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: or citizen supervision under honor authorities. So we're getting more 806 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: opaque institutions, more powerful institutions, less civilian and less citizens supervision. 807 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: And these institutions have more money. And what we're actually 808 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: doing is we're making the whole system worse. I'm reading 809 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: occasionally these headlines Mexico legalizes, are about to legalize marijuana, 810 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: you know, bills being introduced in Congress, multipartisan support for 811 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: these bills. They didn't legalize that's another thing. They didn't 812 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: legalize medical marijuana. They legalized pharmaceutical marijuana. So it has 813 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: to be cannabis derivatives with less than two percent of 814 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: THHC and they have to come, you know, from they 815 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: have to be imported. They can't be produced here because 816 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: of the specifications with you know, regarding the production. So 817 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 1: it's basically US or Canadian products. So it's you know, 818 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: sometimes the media is very misleading. You know, Why do 819 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: we say every you know, six months that cannabis has 820 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: been legalized. The last time I counted, there were already 821 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:04,760 Speaker 1: twenty eight proposals of cannabis legislation. Being proposed in either 822 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, either chambers in the legislative and they just 823 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,959 Speaker 1: you know, won't go won't go through. And it's good 824 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,799 Speaker 1: in some ways that it hasn't gone through because the 825 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: proposals are basically you know, legislations that favor Canadian pharmaceuticals 826 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: requirements that are being established in the in those you know, 827 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: bills or proposals for bills which will only allow certain 828 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: you know, companies to produce because of the way and 829 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: the requirements that are being asked for if you want 830 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: to produce or cell cannabis here in Mexico. But so far, 831 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,359 Speaker 1: none of them have actually passed passed Congress. I mean, 832 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 1: I remember going to a conference in I think Guana 833 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 1: Wata a few years ago organized by former President the 834 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: Center Fox, who is a big promoter of the marijuana industry. 835 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: Is nobody actually making money in Mexico legally on the 836 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,479 Speaker 1: marijuana stuff? Now? Importers, people who in port drops, people 837 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: who have a permit to import droubs, those the ones 838 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,320 Speaker 1: making money. But but it's without THHC. And so basically 839 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 1: you do have some products, but it's for you know, 840 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,759 Speaker 1: bombs that will be sold in Walmart or you know 841 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,479 Speaker 1: CBD drops for you know, your pets, or or or 842 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: for arthritis. I mean, I remember when I visited you 843 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 1: guys in late nineteen and allhandre you were. I felt 844 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: quite excited at the time. He frustrated, but excited because 845 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: you were working with people in the government, I think 846 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: the Interior Minister, you know, about real marijuana legal regulation 847 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: proposals and trying to get as we do in the 848 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: American States, a better bill worth instead of a worse 849 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: bill out. I guess Lopez over Door leaves office in 850 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: um about three years from now, a little into three 851 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 1: years from now, are we actually going to see the 852 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: emergence of retail cannabis shops in Mexico before he leaves office? 853 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 1: Probably not, I mean who knows, but probably not. And 854 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: and so I mean part of understanding why not during 855 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 1: his term in office has to do with going back 856 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: to the question you asked about him being, you know, 857 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: an outsider and the left wing president. So to understand 858 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: what kind of left lopeso Alort is, you have to 859 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: understand his history. And he comes from a history of 860 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: being a p r I party operative in the seventies 861 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 1: and eighties, So the left to him means close borders, 862 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: import substitution economy, and highly centralized government control over the economy. 863 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: That's what the left means to him. It is not 864 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: progressive drug policy, it is not you know, progressive gender agenda. 865 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: It is the left of the nineties seventies in Mexico, 866 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: which was really authoritarian and really vertical. And the thing is, 867 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: he is the president with the least checks and balances 868 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: since the democratic transition, and so in many ways his 869 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: administration looks like a restoration of the p r I, 870 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: both in discourse and and substantive agenda, but also in 871 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: the way he operates government because without checks and balance, 872 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: it is because he has a comfortable majority in Congress, 873 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: he basically bullies around the judiciary and the States. And 874 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: so what had happened with democratic opening, which was the 875 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: pluralization and opening up of politics in Mexico, has reverted 876 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,320 Speaker 1: and it's become highly centralized. And now I don't think 877 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:16,959 Speaker 1: that he will push through an aggressive reform agenda regarding cannabis, 878 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: first of all, because he doesn't believe in it. It's 879 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: not something that he thinks is the left. I think 880 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: he actually comes from a left that thinks that the 881 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 1: States should have an important role in dictating the morality 882 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: of the population, which has an important tradition in the 883 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,680 Speaker 1: in Mexico's left that sometimes we band casinos and all 884 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: of that same logic. So substantively, he doesn't have any 885 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:45,919 Speaker 1: commitment to it. But politically, the war on drugs all 886 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 1: drug crimes because they are federal crimes as opposed to 887 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: state crimes, and so it's federal criminal policy are a 888 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 1: vehicle for further centralization, and militarization is a vehicle for 889 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,319 Speaker 1: further centralization. So it is useful to him to have 890 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,800 Speaker 1: prohibition because it is one of the tools through which 891 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: government has become more centralized. So I don't think he 892 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:08,879 Speaker 1: will let up, and I don't think we will have 893 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: a robust, healthy market. If we do have any form 894 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: of reform passed through in the next two years, it 895 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: will probably be something that is highly limited, very much 896 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,320 Speaker 1: oriented by the interests of the American and Canadian industries 897 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 1: that have already introduced themselves into Mexico through medical marijuana. 898 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,280 Speaker 1: But as Catalina was saying, it's not that we're actually 899 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 1: using pot for medical use, is that we're using pots 900 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: to extract derivatives that can be used as you know, 901 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 1: supplements or CBD, but not THHD based medicine, and so 902 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: we will probably look at a very restrictive market, very 903 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: small market. The bills that were introduced, and you were asking, 904 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I was involved with the Ministry of the Interior, 905 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,319 Speaker 1: and I was frustrated. So let me tell you how 906 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,359 Speaker 1: that story ended. And it's a sad story, but I'll 907 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: be quite open about it. I was advising the Ministry 908 00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,799 Speaker 1: of the Interior and we had a table set up, 909 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: working group set up with the legislative and with the 910 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: Ministry of Health, and we were producing and we actually 911 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,400 Speaker 1: produced what I think is a very nice federal piece 912 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: of legislation that would have the under Secretary and a 913 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,400 Speaker 1: relative opened up you know, retail, well regulated cannabis markets. 914 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: But then it turns out that the under Secretary and 915 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,120 Speaker 1: a relative of the secretaries had a parallel working group 916 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: in which American and Canadian big industry and Mexican importers 917 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: were sitting at the table, and basically what they were 918 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,799 Speaker 1: drafting is a bill that would make it very very 919 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: difficult for small producers to participate in the legal market. 920 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,160 Speaker 1: And it would have produced the scenario in which in 921 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: the long term, I mean not immediately, but in the 922 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: long term. Foreign industry could set up their production at 923 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: cheaper labor costs than the production in the US or Canada, 924 00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: but expensive enough in terms of you know, technology for 925 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: traceability of pot or in terms of you know, patenting seeds, etcetera, 926 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,439 Speaker 1: so that local producers would not be able to enter 927 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: the legal market. So had that bill been approved, the 928 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: production for legal cannabis would have been in the hands 929 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:22,839 Speaker 1: of people with the capacity to inject important capital investments 930 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 1: into technology that is not needed in Mexico and that 931 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,320 Speaker 1: has no reason to be forced into the production in Mexico. 932 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 1: Do you worry at all that, even if you've been successful, 933 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 1: that the small growers now producing legal marijuana would have 934 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: been just as much under the thumb of the criminal 935 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: organizations as they were before, the least able to defend themselves, 936 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,239 Speaker 1: the most susceptible to being extorted, That they would be 937 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 1: every bit as vulnerable as the folks in the avocado 938 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,400 Speaker 1: industry of the line industry in some parts of the country, 939 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,319 Speaker 1: as the avocado industry and the line industry. Yes, as 940 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: the current cannabis industry. No, because out of their role 941 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,239 Speaker 1: may ability is they can't turn to the authorities. Now, 942 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,840 Speaker 1: the difference between avocado and pots is that avocado you 943 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: need to be in micho Can to produce it, and 944 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,840 Speaker 1: min is you know, relatively far away from the cities 945 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: and institutional cus at least where the where the where 946 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 1: this is produced, and therefore it's vulnerable because that's where 947 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, you have the criminal economy taking over. But 948 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,759 Speaker 1: you could produce cannabis in places that are not that 949 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,759 Speaker 1: far away and that are relatively safe. The people who 950 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,879 Speaker 1: have been in producing pot for the illegal economies would 951 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 1: probably keep producing for the same guys, but still the 952 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: incentives for extorting violence on the rower would be less 953 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 1: if prohibition wasn't there. Let me just finally ask you this, 954 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,839 Speaker 1: I mean in talking with you, it's I can't come 955 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: away except with a very pessimistic feeling. Where are the 956 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: reasons for optimism in all of this? Let me put 957 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 1: it this way, I think that we're past a mystic 958 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,359 Speaker 1: because governments, at least the last three governments that we've 959 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,799 Speaker 1: been watching closely, you could probably safely say that they've 960 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 1: done everything wrong, and they've done everything wrong both to 961 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,360 Speaker 1: make things worse but also to entrenched interests in keeping 962 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: things as bad as they are. You know, the security, 963 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,080 Speaker 1: the arms deals that drugs themselves, the diversification of exhortion, 964 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,280 Speaker 1: all of that are entrenched interests and they all depend 965 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 1: on actually having a very obscure, very opaque, and very 966 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: dysfunctional security and justice system. And so there's a lot 967 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: of incentives for keeping that and there's no inkling of 968 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,760 Speaker 1: hope because governments have got it wrong time and time again, 969 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,720 Speaker 1: or at least have gotten it wrong from the policy perspective. Again, 970 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: I think that they've reaped huge benefits from the political perspective, 971 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,160 Speaker 1: and of course some parts of the state have really 972 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 1: huge benefits. From the budgetary perspective. You're looking at pessimism 973 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:58,960 Speaker 1: because the people who are in charge I have been 974 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,839 Speaker 1: doing everything wrong. But when you look at society, at 975 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,799 Speaker 1: civil society, that's when you see hope, because when you 976 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,200 Speaker 1: look at civil society you see that what in fact 977 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: are huge steps forth in drug policy reform, such as, 978 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 1: for instance, getting a Supreme Court to actually say that 979 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: using cannabis is a fundamental right that should be respected 980 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,080 Speaker 1: under the regime of human rights, or when you look 981 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 1: at the possibility of growing pot through you know, very 982 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: ants like judicial activism in which we probably now have 983 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: a couple of thousand people who can legally grow pot 984 00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 1: or And this is my big optimistic face when you 985 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,439 Speaker 1: look at the statistics of what people think about pot 986 00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,440 Speaker 1: prohibition and where it was when the drug war began. 987 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,560 Speaker 1: When the drug war began, there was something like seventy 988 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,680 Speaker 1: percent of the population were in favor of prohibition and 989 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 1: of the militarization of prohibition. And about four years ago 990 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: the measurements started showing that there was an overwhelming support 991 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 1: above seventy for medical kind of legalization, and that non 992 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: medical or adult use of cannabis was actually above fifty nationwide, 993 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,640 Speaker 1: And of course this is stronger in the younger generations. 994 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 1: So when you look at the statistics of what civil 995 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: society thinks about drugs, there is reason for optimism, but 996 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: that optimism seems to be a demographic push, and it's 997 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,560 Speaker 1: not going to move the politicians who are now in 998 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: power and who will be empower until they die off. 999 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,560 Speaker 1: So I'm optimistic about civil society, but I'm very pessimistic 1000 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,320 Speaker 1: about government and Catalina last words, same question to you, 1001 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,880 Speaker 1: do you see any sources of reasons for optimism and 1002 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,360 Speaker 1: looking ahead visa, the Mexico situation as it relates to 1003 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,840 Speaker 1: security and the drug war and all of that. I 1004 00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 1: think the change that there has been in the US 1005 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: and regulating cannabis in different ways has changed the perception 1006 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 1: in Mexico about cannabis at least and what the correct 1007 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,960 Speaker 1: spots from government should be. And I'm optimistic in the 1008 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: sense of, you know, legislation hasn't passed today, not only 1009 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: because you know, we aren't really sure about, you know, 1010 00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:15,360 Speaker 1: how to regulate, but it's also you know, there's there's 1011 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,959 Speaker 1: a big idea that whatever legislation passes has to be 1012 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: focused on social justice, and so far, I think civil 1013 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: society has been successful in saying we don't want any 1014 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 1: type of regulation, we want a specific type of regulation 1015 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,760 Speaker 1: that may be helpful for the people who have suffered 1016 00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,920 Speaker 1: most from prohivision in Mexico. And I think, no, for me, 1017 00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 1: it's a positive thing to to see that, at least 1018 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,360 Speaker 1: in cannabis, we still have a chance to get a 1019 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 1: regulation that may have some social justice embedded in it 1020 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: and that may, you know, turn the cards for the 1021 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,480 Speaker 1: people who have suffered the most from the world on 1022 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,720 Speaker 1: drugs in Mexico well, and that note, let me thank 1023 00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,440 Speaker 1: both of you. Catalina Hydro, I miss you eyes. I 1024 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 1: hope to see you back, either at your Homonouguas Collientis 1025 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: or elsewhere in Mexico sometime, befar along come and visit. 1026 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: I will definitely do that and give my love to 1027 01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:18,040 Speaker 1: your children as well. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell 1028 01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,160 Speaker 1: your friends about it, or you can write us a 1029 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,320 Speaker 1: review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1030 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,080 Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 1031 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,080 Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave 1032 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven 1033 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you 1034 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,640 Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or 1035 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,000 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also 1036 01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,040 Speaker 1: find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a 1037 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted 1038 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,600 Speaker 1: by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by no him Osband 1039 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:02,000 Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1040 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus, and Darren Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures Alex Williams 1041 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. 1042 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1043 01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:32,000 Speaker 1: to a bios f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb. Next 1044 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: week I'll be talking with Sam Canonis, the journalist whose 1045 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,760 Speaker 1: book Dreamland, about the spread of heroin, won all sorts 1046 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,080 Speaker 1: of awards, and his latest book, The Least of Us 1047 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 1: tells us about the spread of fentanel and the spread 1048 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 1: of a new form of meth amphetamine and its impact 1049 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,720 Speaker 1: on communities around America. It's about how our opioid epidemic 1050 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 1: ignited the creativity and the profit mode of the Mexican 1051 01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: trafficking world, and along the way of providing us with heroin, 1052 01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,800 Speaker 1: they discovered fell could be in in a lab. And 1053 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:06,120 Speaker 1: it's the story too of how they become really just 1054 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: synthetic drug producers mostly and that this is extraordinarily a 1055 01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,280 Speaker 1: deadly harmful thing for the country of the United States. 1056 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Will Mexico to, I have to say. And at the 1057 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: same time, though, along with that, I find great hope 1058 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 1: possible because all of this is really awakening us, I 1059 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:29,280 Speaker 1: think to or pointing us to the idea that how thoroughly. 1060 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,400 Speaker 1: We have shredded a community in this country in many, 1061 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,400 Speaker 1: many ways. Subscribe to Cycle Active now see it, don't 1062 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:36,720 Speaker 1: miss it.