WEBVTT - Who Wants to Live Forever? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.400 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:14.720 Forward Thinking. Hi there, everyone, and welcome to Forward Thinking, 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.759 of the audio podcast that looks at the future and says, 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.040 I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.040 want to achieve it by not dying. I'm Jonathan Strickland, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.360 I'm Lauren back Obama, and I'm Joe McCormick. And that 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.280 quote from Woody Allen that I paraphrased is sort of 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.000 what we're talking about today. We're talking about immortality. M hmm. 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:35.720 Thanks for the backup there, Joe. Yeah, all right. So 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.839 we recently had an episode about longevity and uh, and 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.080 if you were to extend that logically, then you would 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.600 see that beyond longevity, we'd be talking about the possibility 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.840 of actually attaining immortality or at least prolonging our lifespan 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.040 to the point where, um, we we tend to live indefinitely. 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.360 This is a dream that a lot of futurists have, uh, 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.720 and there are various ways that they have proposed that 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.920 we might actually achieve this dream. Um. But we want 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.040 to talk about sort of a couple of those different 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:13.040 ideas and then what would that ultimately mean to humans. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.640 If we were to actually get this ability to live 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.080 effectively for as long as we want to, it raises 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.600 a lot of questions. I'd say more than raises questions. 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.360 I mean getting rid of death, well, not getting rid 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.720 of death, because we should make sure to make a 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.360 distinction between uh, the sort of natural immortality, meaning making 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.400 you immune to dying by old age and stuff like that, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.800 essentially eliminating aging. Yeah, it would be not quite the 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.880 same thing as eliminating death completely, because you if you 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.760 were never we can never make it so that if 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.760 injury or disease were eliminated, that would be an entirely 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:52.600 different thing, right if you were, if you were able 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.040 to somehow find a medical cure for say, getting hit 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.360 by a bus, then maybe that would lead to effective 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.320 immortality in all aspects. But really, you know, there are 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.640 going to be cases where, unless we find a way 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.720 to make ourselves invulnerable Superman style, uh, death will still 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.240 be something that could happen to you. It's just it 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.480 won't be something that would happen to you just from 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.240 being around the earth too long, unless we're talking about 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.560 digital immortality. Yeah, in that case, you might be talking 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.520 about the death of a physical body, but not of 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:25.880 the consciousness. But we'll we'll kind of we need to 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.000 break all that down and define it first and then 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.920 talk about what the the concerns are. Right, what I 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.720 started to say about the concerns is that this seems 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.280 to me like it would just completely change what it 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.120 means to be alive, what it means to be humans. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.679 So much of human civilization, as you know, some kind 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.600 of morbid psychologists might say, is based around avoiding thinking 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.120 about your impending death, or it's about dealing with the 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:59.560 death of others, or it's about accepting your impending death, 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.240 depending upon which culture you're talking about and how they 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.600 view mortality. And it could be argued that, um that 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.960 we find all of our meaningfulness in life due to 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.840 the fact that it won't last forever exactly right. So 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.600 if you if you remove that, if life lasts indefinitely, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.840 do you in fact remove meaning or does that just 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.880 mean that we have to redefine it? Uh. These are 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:24.840 all good conversations that I want to get into. But 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.480 before we get into the philosophical stuff, let's talk about 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.760 some of the actual ways that people have said we 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:37.720 might somehow achieve immortality. Now, you mentioned digital immortality, Lauren. Now, 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.880 this is an idea that I I personally think is 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.880 very science fiction. E um. It's the idea that we're 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.320 somehow able to port our consciousness what it is that 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:55.400 makes us us into some sort of electronic mechanical, you know, system. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.120 So essentially the way most people use shorthand as they say, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.080 you upload your brain to a computer. Now, there are 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.640 a lot of problems with this, chief among them is 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.280 how do you actually get the whatever it is in 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.760 our consciousness that makes us who we are out of 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.040 our minds and into a machine. Yeah. Right, now, there's 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.960 so much that we don't understand about human consciousness in 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.960 the brain that it seems like an impossibility. And there 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:26.560 may not be any sort of way to to interconnect 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.279 our consciousness with a machine beyond a very surface level. 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.560 So in other words, uh, you might be able to 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.200 interact with a computer with a brain computer interface. We've 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.839 seen those already and they're getting better every year. But 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.400 being able to make a computer do what you want 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.400 by thinking about it and making a transition from your 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.320 body into a computer are huge orders of magnitude apart 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.560 from one another. Yeah, and if the language on this 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.800 hasn't been clear yet. It's worth making a really fine 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.200 distinction on the difference between having a copy of your 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.440 brain in a computer and having that be the thing 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.680 that is currently your experience. Right, So, even if we 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.480 get to a point where we can simulate a human 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.040 brain down to the last luron, imagine they could actually 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.880 copy it. So somebody could go interact with that computer, 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.040 and to them it would be like interacting with you. 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.200 The personality would be identical. However, that computer have the 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.560 experience of interacting with that person. Well, and even even 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.440 if we can't answer that question, we still are bothered 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.080 by the question of well, yeah, okay, so we've got 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.800 a computer copy, but I'm still in my body, right, 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.000 that's it. It's not like it's not like me that 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.719 that somehow my own experience of the universe as I 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.120 know it continues on. There's just a copy of me. 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.200 It's almost as if you were to make a physical 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.479 clone of me. If you were to clone me and 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.080 there was a second me there, that second me which 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:00.160 might have very similar personality traits and actually might not. 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.920 But that's kind of interesting too. But anyway, let's assume 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.400 that somehow it's a perfect copy of me. That doesn't 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.200 mean that if my clone goes out the door and 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.040 talks to someone, I suddenly have that experience of talking 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.359 to that person. That's two totally separate experiences of reality. 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.040 So I still lose it when I die. I'm gone. Well, however, 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.320 I mean, if that clone has all of your experiences 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.080 up until the point that you die, if it's made 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.080 at your death and then can still go out and 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.880 update Twitter and have all of your memories, then to 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.080 everyone else, I seem alive. To me, I'm still dead. Well, 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:35.279 but that but how do you How do you know 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.600 that if you're, if you're because your consciousness, if you're 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.120 continues on. But no, no, no, no, it's not my consciousness, 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.359 it's his consciousness. See. That's the problem is that it 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.000 becomes his as soon as that becomes a thing. Same 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.640 thing with the digital model is that there are two 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.280 consciousness is now conscious nigh whatever the plural of consciousness 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.839 would be. But there are two of them and so 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.920 and that's the problem is that they're distinct from one another. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.920 They both are based on the same thing. But this 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.000 is the same problem I have with transporter technology. By 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.160 the way, Yeah, it's essentially cloning. It's breaking down a 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.080 body and then reconstructing it. So every single time anyone 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.840 on Star Trek is using the transporter, and this is 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.800 something that Bones himself points out a couple of times. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.400 They die and resurrected, but it's it's a copy of 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.920 the person. It's the next generation. Dealt with that in 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.360 a very important episode about Riker, but it wasn't every episode, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.640 and an important episode about Riker and how he sits 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.120 down in the manliest of ways and every chair he 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.560 comes into contact with. Is he his action man, it's not. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.800 It's not his faulty. He also walks through doors sideways 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.120 because his shoulders are just far too wide to fit through. 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.160 Uh kid, Jonathan breaks He's a nice guy. I met 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.480 him a couple of times. I love you Jonathan anyway. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.960 Uh So that but that's a real that's a real 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:52.720 thing though. That's a real thing in science fiction, and 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.920 it's a real thing. That people have argued is that 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.280 the you could maintain the illusion of immortality that way 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.000 to everyone, to any outside observer, it would be as 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.560 if you were living forever, but you, the actual entity, 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.120 would cease to be upon your death right. That the 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.840 so the new you might have the sense of continuity, right, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.840 the new you might continue on and it would be 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.640 as if you had actually been transported. It's just that 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:25.080 your consciousness ends, which not acceptable. We're talking, We're getting 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.120 into a very metaphysical conversation about what it means to 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.119 be conscious and what I mean because I I would 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.280 I would argue the counter. I would argue that if 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.040 if you can wake up in a new body, but 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.120 you're not as all of your memories, you're not waking 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.600 up someone else is waking up with all your memories. No, 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:43.600 but if it's all of your memories, it's still you, 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.480 but it's not you the person individually, because you both 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.640 exist at the same time, Lauren, If you clone yourself 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.840 right now and your clone walks outside and does stuff, 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.360 you are not going to know what's happening. So your 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.719 consciousness is existing independent. It doesn't matter. But that's that's 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:05.960 the whole pay We're trying to avoid death, right. Okay, So, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.640 so digital immortality, we've got a problem with consciousness porting 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.320 and all that aside. But how would digital immortality be 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:18.360 different from physical immortality? So digital immortality, let's let's say 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.240 that somehow we have reached a point where we actually 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.840 can move a person's consciousness from a physical body into 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.040 a digital construct. I don't know how we did it, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.960 but somehow we magically found the way. You know, we've 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.000 got the USB port. You just transferred your brain over 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.040 USB sevn D three and uh it went really quickly. 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.559 And then you're seeing from this computer. That's where your 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.839 your consciousness has now been transported into a computer, whether 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.080 that computer is a giant mainframe, or it's inside a 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.800 robotic body, or it's some sort of weird free form 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.120 literal cloud computing. Because we've gone so far that nanotechnology 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.320 has taken. Okay, I I put in right now for 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.000 electronic jellyfish, electronic jellyfish from I'm just gonna say goo 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.959 like magic, Google magic, goof for Joe personally, I want 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:11.480 a flame breathing unicorna but that's close enough. A lama 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.000 in a unicorn. Our world's apart. But anyway, so, so 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.120 all right, we we've reached that point. In this case, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.280 we're talking about a continuing consciousness. But there's you. You 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.040 are separated from what was your body, right you are 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.520 not now you might be able in this weird science 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.600 fiction world, to reconstruct your body in some way so 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.240 that you can at least continue the experience of going 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.880 through the world as if you were in a human body. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.960 Can change mind to mechanical shark, mechanical shark body, you're 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.720 in goo. You can take whatever form you want, all right, 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.440 But the point being that, you know, if you could 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.240 support your brain so that you could be in a 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.160 digital format, you would not be limited to the human 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.920 experience anymore. Uh. There are a lot of other questions 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.199 that happened, Like what happens if you were to upload 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.920 to justness? Is this this is to the same computer? 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.160 Then would they merge in some way? What happens if 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.400 we were to port the entire human race into some 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.760 sort of digital format. What happens with reproduction? Would we 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.680 actually be able to create brand new digital life forms 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:21.520 that never once we're inside a human body? Uh? Again, 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.560 I think all this is pure science fiction. I don't 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.960 see us ever getting there. But these are kind of 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.679 those cool science fiction e like ideas that you get 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.480 when you're yeah, yeah, yeah, it's are we going to 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.679 be the borg? Like would we have a shared consciousness 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.920 at that point? Or uh, you know, would it be 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.640 would the human race essentially become a giant ant colony, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.840 like every single consciousness actually becomes more like an individual 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:48.640 neuron in a giant hive brain. Um. I honest, again, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.040 I don't think we're ever going to get there, So 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.040 it's almost a moot discussion in my mind. But you know, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.880 I could be totally wrong. Well, so it does seem 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:01.160 to me that it's slightly more probable that we will 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.679 achieve something like a physical immortality. And again to clarify, 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.120 not in vulnerability, but conquering aging because we can actually 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.040 zero in on what aging is. Yeah, and uh, and 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.120 if we zero in on the genes that govern aging 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:21.360 to a point where we can uh make meaningful decisions 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:26.280 so that we counteract the aging process, we could indefinitely 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.200 halt aging. Now, these are all a lot of ifs, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.720 and on the scientific level, I think all of that 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.880 is achievable. Um, I don't. I don't think there's anything 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:40.439 fundamentally uh that would be a fundamental barrier to that. 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.640 But I do think that in order for that to happen, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.160 there'll be a lot of hurdles to overcome. However, I 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.199 do think that between the two major roads, digital immortality 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.079 or conquering aging. I think the aging one is the 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.200 one that's actually more plausible. It looks it looks more 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:58.920 likely right now. I mean, we already know that the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.719 hey flick limb it um, which is which is the 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.280 limited which cells stop dividing and go through a programmed 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.959 cell death. Uh, we know what that is. We know 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.440 that there's a protein um telomerase that has to do 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.600 with with with triggering that and that if you can 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:23.120 remove that limit, then stuff like cancer cells don't have that. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:24.920 So I mean, you know, we we've already looked at 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.600 it and said, hey, that thing, it's just yeah, yeah, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.600 this is an idea where uh well, like like the 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.320 idea that you know, you have the the caps on 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.079 the end of uh, genetic material, the telomeres, right that 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.480 get a little shorter every time the cell divides, and 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.840 once they get down to the end, that's pretty much 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.920 game over for that cell um. If we were able 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.920 to reverse that process or halt that process, then in theory, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:53.640 we would be able to to hold off death indefinitely. 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.640 And we've seen experiments like this in h on the 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:02.200 cellular level, but not anything that's human as far as 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.839 we know. I mean, there are some conspiracy theorists out 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.439 there who believe that there are folks who are already 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.319 in possession of this immortality, but for fear of the 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:16.760 mass of of of the unwashed, charging with pitchforks and 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.760 pistols in hand, they have not revealed their immortal status. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.360 Perhaps they even glitter in sunlight. I do not know, 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.880 but I don't hold those conspiracy theories in in. I'm 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.520 skeptical all of them. Let's say that I'm quite skeptical too, 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.720 but I don't think part of that idea is unreasonable, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.200 not necessarily that somebody has actually figured this out. But uh, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.880 let me introduce a little thought experiment. So imagine you 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.840 discover the cure to a disease, you know, like polio. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.520 You know you were the discoverer of the polio vaccine. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:59.080 Do you have a moral duty to share that knowledge 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.080 of how to create that vaccine with the rest of 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.920 the world. I would say yes, Like you have an obligion, 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.760 I would say. I would say ethically, not morally, but yes. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.240 But I just make that distinction between ethics and morality 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:16.440 because I think morality suggests there's a specific belief system 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:22.760 that is usually tied to religious affiliation, But I think 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.920 ethically you would certainly be expected to share that. Yeah, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:33.400 semantic distinctions, you would have an ethical responsibility. Would you 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.640 have the same responsibility if what you discovered was the 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.400 cure to aging? I and just intuitively don't feel that 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.760 you necessarily would. I think that that's a tougher question. Well, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:51.840 it's certainly if we were to somehow discover with irrefutable 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.320 proof that we had found a way too safely stop 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.360 the aging process, and we were to just spontane eviously 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:04.400 roll that out throughout the entire human population, there would 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.000 clearly be some massive consequences we would have to deal with, 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:14.120 and I honestly think that, uh, we would really have 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:18.920 to think about, discuss consider the consequences of those actions 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:24.120 before rolling that out. So I think that while this 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.480 this conversation is largely philosophical, uh, it's it's an important one. 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.000 And I think in order for us to ever get 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.600 to a future where we do actually roll out some 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.880 form of of defeating the whole aging process, we have 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.400 to have these conversations now, because if we don't, we're 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.800 gonna be dealing with some ugly consequences further down the road. Yeah. Yeah, 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.880 it more depends on on a bunch of other ethical 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.200 considerations that are brought up if the possibility of of 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.960 this longevity becomes real. So for example, like, uh, you know, 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.600 there's there's the idea that we talked about this in 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.640 another episode of forward Thinking, the idea that there's a 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:08.159 capacity that any particular region has to support life on it, 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.719 a particular type of life, right like, and once you 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:17.480 once you exceed that, you've actually gone beyond the capacity 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.800 of that area to support that life, then you have 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.600 massive die offs. So you're saying, like, imagine we we 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.919 keep breeding, but we mostly stop dying, right So in 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.760 other words, uh, there's a question is it does it 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:38.280 become unethical to h to reproduce if you are creating 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.720 a greater burden on the entire planet to provide the 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.879 resources necessary for everyone to continue to survive. Then there's 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.720 I mean that that's and is it for the more 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.320 ethical to tell people that they can't reproduce? Is is 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.520 removing that capacity, you know, violating basic human rights? Right? 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.160 Do you therefore make a distinction and say any who 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.439 wants to reproduce, that's fine. You don't get the magic 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.000 serum that keeps you alive forever, and then what would 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.639 what would most people choose? And then on the on 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.600 top of that, you've got the question of if it's 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.560 a if it's a private company that comes up with 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.879 this this approach like they've got gene therapy that will 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.159 um conquer aging uh, And it's a private company, and 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.919 you know, private companies exist in order to make a profit. 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.760 That's the business. That's ultimately what the goal is. Now, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.320 there are different ways of going about it, and you 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.439 can do it in ethical ways, you can do it 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.280 in unethical ways, but that's really beside the point. The 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.840 whole purpose of a business is to make money. That's 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.359 why they exist. So if you have a business that 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.920 comes up with this plan, um, what happens when how 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.800 do you set your price? Like you've got something that 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.000 you know lots of people are going to want, Maybe 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.560 not everyone. There might be people out there who have 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.960 no interest in living forever. They don't they think for 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.840 whatever reason that that is not for them. Well, I'd 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.520 imagine there's a huge middle category. I'd probably include myself 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.880 in this that would probably like to live a good 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.639 bit longer than people usually naturally live, but would really 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.600 probably not like to live forever, right, right, So well, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.760 and and there's you know, well, first of all, we're 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:23.000 talking about prolonging life indefinitely, but that does not necessarily 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.720 mean well, I mean we're talking about a practical forever. 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.560 I mean, obviously we're not going to billions of years 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.840 until keep death of the Unix. Just a bunch of 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.359 us sitting there going, well that was something, wasn't you know? 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:41.760 But but right, so so let's just let's say, uh, 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.240 five hundred thousand years. I mean, yeah, that's I'd like 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.640 to I'd like to live longer than I probably naturally will, 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.640 but I don't want to live five hundred thousand years. 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.880 That's fair, And that's a good question. Maybe maybe maybe 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.000 you get you get seven eight hundred years into it, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:56.440 and you go and you know, this is pretty cool. 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.000 That's true. You can't really predict. But then maybe seven 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.520 hundred hundred years after that, you're like, I'm done at 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.080 last five years was a bear? You know, you don't know, 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:10.440 you don't know. But but here's here's the things that 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.239 that's a good question. I mean, would you would that 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.080 mean if we if we get to a point where 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:20.640 people were able to achieve immortality. Would um, would suicide 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:26.080 be a permissible thing in this society where someone has 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.959 felt that they have lived long enough and they do 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.760 not wish to continue living if it's if it's something 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.840 that requires uh, you know, periodic treatments. I can imagine 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:41.000 a world where if you are able to demonstrate this 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:42.639 This is a weird concept, but if you're able to 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.840 demonstrate that you are mentally sound, that you would halt 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.000 those treatments and allow the aging process to continue. Can 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.800 you imagine that where I'm sorry, you're not You're not 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.280 mentally capable, so we have to keep you alive indefinitely. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.600 That's kind of an interesting, but but possible future. This 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.840 converse station introduces such a weird instability in the way 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.800 I'm viewing humans. I had the question popped into my mind, like, 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.400 would be would mental soundness still be the same thing 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.040 in this world? I mean, that's how fundamentally I feel 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.960 this would alter the human experience. So like, if someone 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.040 said that they no longer wish to live, would that 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.560 person be viewed as truly crazy? Yeah? Well, I mean 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.159 can and can you imagine? I mean, because losses is 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.200 a big scary part of our lives right now. Can 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:32.200 you imagine losing someone that you've known for eight hundred years? Yeah, yeah, 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:38.439 I can imagine wanting to know just just just just 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.280 how to relationships work at that point, you know how? Right? 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.160 I mean that there are a lot of I mean 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.760 fundamental questions about what it is to have the human experience. 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.480 That's another question is if you were able to do this, 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.240 would it mean that you were no longer actually human 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.239 at least as the way, not not from a you know, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:03.399 necessarily from the genetically, but from an experience from what 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.760 from what? If a human condition depends upon death, then 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.120 by defeating death are we human? And and which which 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.160 also gets into the questions of spirituality. I mean, because 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.800 most lots of religions um base a lot of their 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.880 philosophy on what happens after you die. If you don't die, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.000 then then you know, then what does that mean? What 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.800 are you? You know? If God has a plan for us, 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.840 what does that mean? If if reincarnation is the road 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.159 to um enlightenment, then what does that mean? Right? I 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.040 can imagine one way that that might be dealt with 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.800 is just purely practically, like if if you want to 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:44.560 talk about heaven and hell, or other versions of afterlife. Um, 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.040 you could merely fall back on the fact that, well, 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.480 I mean, this isn't going to mean actual immortality, so 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.160 maybe it takes you a hundred thousand years to uh 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.560 face your judgment or whatever. But I think that will happen. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.440 I think it would widely. It would wide be very 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:05.120 depending upon the various religious faiths out there. Obviously, Yeah, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:10.320 so there'd be some that would probably uh embrace this, 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.480 and there'd be some that might say, you know, this 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.959