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Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. In Montgomery County Public

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Speaker 1: Schools in Maryland, the school board approved LGBTQ inclusive texts

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Speaker 1: to prove for instructional use. Books with titles like Pride Puppy,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Bobby's Wedding, Born Ready, The True Story of a

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Speaker 1: Boy named Penelope, Rainbow Revolutionaries, Fifty LGBTQ plus People who

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Speaker 1: Made History are just a few of the approved book titles.

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Speaker 1: Several parents with religious backgrounds came together to sue the

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Speaker 1: school board to restore their right to opt their children

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Speaker 1: out of instruction that is inconsistent with their faith. However,

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Speaker 1: a US District Court judge denied their request for a

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Speaker 1: preliminary injunction in August twenty fourth. The ruling on the

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Speaker 1: injunction does not mean that the lawsuit stops. The court

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Speaker 1: still needs to hear the full case and issue a

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Speaker 1: final decision. Here to discuss the ongoing story book mandate case,

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Eric Baxter. He

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Speaker 1: is the Vice president and Senior Council at the Beckett

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Speaker 1: Fund for Religious Liberty and the attorney representing the plaintiffs

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Speaker 1: in the case. Eric, Welcome and thank you for joining

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Speaker 1: me on Newts World.

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Speaker 2: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the background of

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Speaker 1: the lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: Certainly, you know, Montgomery County, Maryland, is the largest county

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Speaker 2: in Maryland, right outside of Washington, d C. It has

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Speaker 2: long had a wonderful religious diversity policy that allows students

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Speaker 2: to opt out of any instruction that would violate their

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Speaker 2: religious beliefs. That's reflective of the very diverse nature of

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Speaker 2: the county. We have people from diverse faiths, you know,

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Speaker 2: immigrants from many different countries. It's a wonderful melting pot

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Speaker 2: in Montgomery County. School District has traditionally respected that by

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Speaker 2: allowing opt outs. Maryland law itself also requires opt outs

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Speaker 2: from any instruction on family life and human sexuality. Last fall,

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Speaker 2: the school board, in an effort and what it describes

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Speaker 2: is to improve inclusivity, adopted a series of books, and

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Speaker 2: our lawsuit particularly targets those geared at students in pre

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Speaker 2: k through fifth grade. Books that all push an ideology

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Speaker 2: on gender and sexuality that encourages kids to consider their sexuality,

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Speaker 2: their gender identity, their pronouns, to embrace gender transitioning, and

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Speaker 2: to think about childhood romances One of the books invites

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Speaker 2: teachers to discuss with kids what it means when you

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Speaker 2: like like versus just liking someone, what it means when

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Speaker 2: your heart goes stumpany thump when you look at some

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Speaker 2: on the playground, and this needs to say has created

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Speaker 2: quite a controversy in the county.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think the school board went to for

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Speaker 1: we have? I think one book asked three and four

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Speaker 1: year olds to search for images from a list that

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Speaker 1: includes intersex, flag, drag, queen underwear, leather, and the name

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Speaker 1: of a celebrated LGBTQ activist and sex worker. I mean

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Speaker 1: for three and four year olds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's totally age inappropriate. When the books were first

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Speaker 2: announced in the fall, the school board's own principles, basically

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Speaker 2: the Union of Elementary School Principles in Montgomery County, wrote

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Speaker 2: a letter to the school board saying these books are

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Speaker 2: totally inappropriate, their age inappropriate, they're dismissive of students' religious beliefs,

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Speaker 2: they encourage students to respond to students' concerns with comments

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Speaker 2: that are shaming to students. The principle said, you know,

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Speaker 2: our teachers are not comfortable talking with children, and it's

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Speaker 2: inappropriate to be talking to children about playground romances regardless

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Speaker 2: of sexual orientation. And so when you have even the

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Speaker 2: principles in the school opposing what the school board is doing,

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Speaker 2: it does raise the question what is the school board thinking?

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Speaker 2: And you know, they say they're doing this in the

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Speaker 2: name of inclusivity, but lots of counties in Maryland promote inclusivity,

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Speaker 2: teaching children how to be kind and respectful to each

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Speaker 2: other without pushing kind of an extreme ideology on gender

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Speaker 2: and sexuality.

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Speaker 1: If even the elementary school principles are worried, why didn't

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Speaker 1: the school board back down?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a great question. You know, normally school

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Speaker 2: board meetings are a pretty sleepy affair. You don't see

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Speaker 2: a lot of meetings where there are lots of parents

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Speaker 2: getting involved. Some of these meetings over the summer have

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Speaker 2: had over a thousand parents attending, dozens of parents lining

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Speaker 2: up to get statements, students standing up to protest. We've

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Speaker 2: even had teachers reaching out. Many of the teachers, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: are afraid to speak out because they're afraid about losing

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Speaker 2: their jobs. But a lot of teachers also opposing this curriculum.

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Speaker 2: So it's really a mystery why the school board won't

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Speaker 2: back down. There seems to be someone who has the

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Speaker 2: year of the school board that's really pushing to have

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Speaker 2: these books into the curriculum. Superintendent is claiming this is

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Speaker 2: necessary for every child to feel safe in Montgomery County.

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Speaker 2: But really all it does when you're pushing this kind

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Speaker 2: of conformity on students, it really just creates more animosity.

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Speaker 2: Students who feel like they're being pressured to believe things

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Speaker 2: that don't make sense to them, the violate their religious beliefs,

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Speaker 2: they're more likely to react adversely than if they're given

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Speaker 2: an opportunity, just as our parents are asking just to

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Speaker 2: leave the classroom when some of these things are being taught.

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Speaker 1: From that standpoint, as I understand it, this is sort

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Speaker 1: of interestingly unifying the religious groups. So you have Muslims, Christians,

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Speaker 1: and Jews, all three objecting to this kind of radical

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Speaker 1: effort aimed at kids who were k through sixth grade.

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Speaker 2: Let's say, yeah, it's really been fascinating to watch, and

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Speaker 2: Montgomery County has one of the largest populations of Muslims

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Speaker 2: in the United States. There's also a large concentration of

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Speaker 2: in particular Ethiopian Orthodox and other Ethiopian Christians, and they've

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Speaker 2: really been leading out on these issues, standing up and saying, wait,

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Speaker 2: we came here for greater religious freedom. In the name

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Speaker 2: of inclusivity, you're actually excluding many students who just disagree

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Speaker 2: with these teachings and are not trying to take them

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Speaker 2: out of the school even but are simply asking to

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Speaker 2: step out of the classroom. But it really has united

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Speaker 2: people faith groups.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think Judge debraah Boardman turned down by

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Speaker 1: asking for an injunction.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will give the judge credit for being very

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Speaker 2: well prepared. She's very thorough, careful, thoughtful, but she really

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Speaker 2: got stuck in a bunch of case law that's out

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Speaker 2: of date and doesn't really address the realities of the situation.

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Speaker 2: So the early case on this issue came from the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court. It's a case called Wisconsin versus Yoder that

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Speaker 2: involved the Amish who wanted to withdraw their children from

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Speaker 2: the public schools beginning in the ninth grade. Wisconsin law

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Speaker 2: required them to tend through the tenth grade, and there

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Speaker 2: were criminal penalties for withdrawing children early. The Amish sued,

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Speaker 2: and the Supreme Court said, yes, the Amish view may

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Speaker 2: not be the same view of education may not be

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Speaker 2: the same view as other Americans, but they have a

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Speaker 2: system where children are educated, they become productive citizens, and

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Speaker 2: this is essential to the preservation of their religious values

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Speaker 2: and communities. So the parents absolutely have the right to

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Speaker 2: opt their children out of high school when it becomes

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Speaker 2: inconsistent with their religious beliefs. So that's kind of the

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Speaker 2: core case, which should speak to the fact that we're

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Speaker 2: asking for much less. The conflict is much smaller. We're saying,

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Speaker 2: just let our children apt out from one story hour,

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Speaker 2: and so that Supreme Court Yoda decision should really win

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Speaker 2: the day here. Unfortunately, throughout the eighties and nineties and

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Speaker 2: the early two thousands, courts across the country kind of

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Speaker 2: sidelined the Yoda decision whenever parents brought challenges to curriculum

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Speaker 2: in the schools. Now a lot of those lenges or

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Speaker 2: efforts to really remove curriculum from the schools, not just

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Speaker 2: get an opt out. And so in a lot of

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Speaker 2: those cases, the court said, well, once you put your

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Speaker 2: kids in the school, you really don't have a direct

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Speaker 2: saying what curriculum is used. That's an issue for the

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Speaker 2: ballot box. Go and vote out the school board if

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Speaker 2: you don't like it, and there's a fair point there,

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Speaker 2: but at some point when curriculum violates an individual students'

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Speaker 2: religious beliefs, the right to opt out is sacred, saying,

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Speaker 2: and really is essential to preserve parents' rights to be

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Speaker 2: the primary decider of how and when to teach their

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Speaker 2: children about these sensitive issues. And so really the judge

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Speaker 2: relied on this line of cases from that thirty year period,

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Speaker 2: most of which rejected parents claims and said, well, I

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Speaker 2: don't really see any burden on religion here, because you're

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Speaker 2: just being exposed to ideas that you don't like, and

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Speaker 2: your parents can continue to teach you at home and

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Speaker 2: so forth. But that's all just poor analysis when you

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Speaker 2: think about you're really for a child to sit through

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Speaker 2: something that their parents or religious reasons, would otherwise not

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Speaker 2: allow them to do. And parents all the time put

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Speaker 2: restrictions on their children for religious and other reasons. They say,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're not old enough to read this book

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Speaker 2: or to watch that movie. But the schools are basically

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Speaker 2: saying here, like, well, as a condition of using public schools,

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Speaker 2: you have to give up that right to control those

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Speaker 2: things if you want to come to public schools. So

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Speaker 2: that's highly problematic, especially for parents who can't afford to

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Speaker 2: use private schools, don't have the ability to homeschool their children,

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Speaker 2: public schools are really their only option, and attending schools

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Speaker 2: shouldn't come at the cost of giving up your religious beliefs.

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Speaker 1: When I looked at her opinion, I mean, part of

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Speaker 1: it's just incoherent. I mean, she says, with or without

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Speaker 1: an opt out right, the parents remain free to pursue

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Speaker 1: their sacred obligations to instruct their children and their faiths,

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Speaker 1: even if their children's exposure to religiously offensive ideas makes

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Speaker 1: the parents' effort less likely to succeed. That does not

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Speaker 1: amount to a government and burden on their religious exercise.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you just read that, do you think

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Speaker 1: this has no relationship to the real world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly suggests a level of religious illiteracy that

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Speaker 2: if you think that the parents' role is just like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I checked the box, I told my kids what I

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Speaker 2: think about religion and about their obligations to God and

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Speaker 2: so forth, that's just totally unrealistic. You know, parents have

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Speaker 2: a deep commitment to do everything they can to help

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Speaker 2: their children be formed in the faith, to develop character,

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Speaker 2: to learn who they are as an individual, what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a sexual being, and how to use

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Speaker 2: that in ways that are appropriate, both for the creation

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Speaker 2: of families, that the perpetuation of the human race and

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Speaker 2: all those things. Those are deeply religious issues. Parents feel

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Speaker 2: deep commitment.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: There's also serious consequences when children become confused on those issues,

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Speaker 2: consequences that parents and family members bear, not school teachers

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Speaker 2: or administrators. And so this is much more than just

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Speaker 2: saying like, oh, I told my kids what I think.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is about forming your children's character and

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Speaker 2: their faith, and that takes a sustained, concentrated effort, including

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Speaker 2: controlling the information that comes into your children, especially such

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Speaker 2: a young, unformative age.

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Speaker 1: Then this all becomes sort of a slippery slope of

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Speaker 1: the government having absolute control over your child. In both

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Speaker 1: Washington State and California. Washington State's passed the law. California

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Speaker 1: is about to pass the law. It basically says, if

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Speaker 1: your parent does not totally support whatever gender you decide

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Speaker 1: you are this week, the state can intervene and take

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Speaker 1: your child away. It is starling.

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Speaker 2: We've watched some of those cases and are looking at

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Speaker 2: some of those laws that are being passed. But that

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Speaker 2: is startlingly the approach of the school board taking here.

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Speaker 2: Their position is that once your child passes through the

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Speaker 2: schoolhouse doors, you have no right. It's they trust us

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Speaker 2: for they experts. I mean, they could show anything to

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Speaker 2: your child and still come to you and say like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you can go homeschool then if you don't

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Speaker 2: like what we're doing, And that's really an imbalance of power.

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Speaker 2: No one elected school boards to take over the formation

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Speaker 2: of their children's character, their religious education, and the school

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Speaker 2: board has lost some perspective about their role to kind

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Speaker 2: of meet the needs of the community and assist parents

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Speaker 2: without taking over their role.

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Speaker 1: Well, and this is exactly the fight that Governor Youngkin

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Speaker 1: has been in Virginia where he has really been very

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Speaker 1: aggressive and taking on the Louden County school Board in

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Speaker 1: the Fairfax County school Board over precisely these kind of

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Speaker 1: issues of whether parents have a legitimate role or whether

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Speaker 1: they basically give up their child to the school. And

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Speaker 1: of course, when you have the elementary school principles saying

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Speaker 1: that this is a really bad idea, you have to

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Speaker 1: wonder why the school board thinks it knows. More so,

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Speaker 1: even if they're making the argument g our professionals can

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Speaker 1: be trusted. The professionals are saying we don't want to

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Speaker 1: do this, then.

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Speaker 2: They'd made arguments like well, we just can't handle the

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Speaker 2: number of opt outs. It's like, well, that should be

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Speaker 2: a signal to you that maybe you're getting ahead of

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Speaker 2: your constituents and you're here to serve the community. If

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Speaker 2: the community is objecting to the point that over a

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Speaker 2: thousand people are showing up to school board meetings where

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Speaker 2: you usually get a couple of people on u snattering

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Speaker 2: of issues, that I should tell you that you're not

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Speaker 2: really fulfilling your role as an elected official and you're

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Speaker 2: instead trying to push on families and individuals and ideology

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Speaker 2: that's really inconsistent with the community standard.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask us for a second before we get

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Speaker 1: to the appeals process. Describe the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty.

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Speaker 2: So we're a nonprofit law firm. Our work is to

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Speaker 2: litigate in the courts, but we do it with the

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Speaker 2: support of donors so that we can represent our clients

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Speaker 2: for free. We represent people of all faiths, where one

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Speaker 2: of the few truly ecumenical organizations in that respect that

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Speaker 2: we represent everyone from A to Z. We've literally represented

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Speaker 2: Anglicans and Zoroastrians and most faith groups in between, and

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Speaker 2: we do it out of a desire to do two things.

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Speaker 2: One first to uphold the principles of the First Amendment,

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Speaker 2: and second to recognize the inherent dignity in every human

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Speaker 2: being and their right to worship as they see fit.

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Speaker 2: So I like to say we've took off people on

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Speaker 2: the left and the right. Some of our cases are

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Speaker 2: unappreciated on the left, some unappreciated on the right, But

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Speaker 2: we really strive to uphold the right of every individual,

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Speaker 2: regardless of their political persuasion or mistakes they've made. We

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Speaker 2: represent prisoners to allow them to exercise their religion freely,

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Speaker 2: and part because we've also believed just the good that

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Speaker 2: religion does in the lives of individuals and in our society.

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Speaker 2: We sometimes forget how influential religion has been throughout our

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Speaker 2: history and in our current culture and legal structure, and

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Speaker 2: so we want to preserve that for the future.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, you have appealed the decision to

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Speaker 1: the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. What

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Speaker 1: do you think happens now?

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Speaker 2: So we are literally waiting on pins and needles. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the briefing was completed a week ago. The Fourth Circuit

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Speaker 2: traditionally responds pretty quickly to these types of applications, and

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Speaker 2: so we're expecting a decision sometime today or hopefully no

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Speaker 2: later than the end of this week on whether the

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Speaker 2: parents will be protected while the litigation plays out. As

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Speaker 2: you mentioned in the opening, this is really just about, hey,

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Speaker 2: let's maintain the status quo. All last year the school

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Speaker 2: allowed opt outs. It was only on March twenty third

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Speaker 2: of this year that the school suddenly said, oh, we're

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Speaker 2: no longer going to notify parents when these books are read.

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Speaker 2: We're no longer going to honor opt out requests. They

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Speaker 2: actually continue to allow that through the end of the

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Speaker 2: school year, but they repeatedly told parents who asked, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we'll give it to you this year, but not next year.

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Speaker 2: And then this year there's been a total ban, no notice.

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Speaker 2: Some of our parents have talked to the teachers and

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Speaker 2: teachers and said, I'm not sure I can talk to

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Speaker 2: you about this even and so we've asked the court, Hey,

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Speaker 2: while this litigation is pending, protect us on a temporary

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Speaker 2: basis so that you have time to fully consider these

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Speaker 2: issues without depriving some of these children of their innocence

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Speaker 2: and overwriting the parents free exercise rights.

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Speaker 1: What's your guess about when you would actually go to

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Speaker 1: trial on the substance of the issue.

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Speaker 2: Well, the way that judge rules, she said, basically there's

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Speaker 2: no religious burden by being forced to submit your children

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Speaker 2: to this, And so the school board have said that

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Speaker 2: once we get back down, are going to move to dismiss.

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Speaker 2: If she's consistent in her ruling, she would just dismiss

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Speaker 2: anyway and we'd be back. So it's really the appeal

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Speaker 2: process that has to play out. I don't anticipate we'll

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Speaker 2: go to trial for a while. Besides this emergency proceeding

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Speaker 2: the Fourth Circuit where we are has said that it

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Speaker 2: wants to brief this case by December, which would suggest

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Speaker 2: that they would give a final ruling on it within

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Speaker 2: a year from then. So maybe we'd be looking at

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Speaker 2: like January twenty twenty five before we had a final

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Speaker 2: ruling from the Court of Appeals. It's possible that court

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Speaker 2: could then say we'll go back and have a trial,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's likely we would then appeal the

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Speaker 2: full merits. If we lost to the Supreme Court, or

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Speaker 2: if we win, then hopefully the school board would live

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Speaker 2: without ruling.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the nationwide problem in the long run,

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Speaker 1: does there need to be sort of a civil rights

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Speaker 1: federal law that says the parents do have rights to

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Speaker 1: know what's happening to their children.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we would certainly welcome that. We would

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Speaker 2: certainly welcome a ruling from the Supreme Court kind of

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Speaker 2: saying that the Yoda decision I mentioned earlier is still

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Speaker 2: good law and that it applies in this context. I

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Speaker 2: think it's also going to be important for parents to

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Speaker 2: continue to pay more attention to what's going on in

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Speaker 2: their schools. And I think one good thing about this lawsuit,

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Speaker 2: and really maybe this came from the Code experience, a

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Speaker 2: lot of parents were exposed to what was being taught

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Speaker 2: to their children, and there's been an impetus to be

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Speaker 2: more involved. I think we're seeing generally across the nation

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Speaker 2: more parents being aware of what's going on in the schools.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's aside from the lawsuit, that's also

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Speaker 2: a really important stat because in some of these schools,

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Speaker 2: it's not just a storybook here or there. They're trying

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Speaker 2: to integrate this material into every classroom and trying to

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Speaker 2: make it very difficult to opt out. Even if you've

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Speaker 2: opted out of it here or there, you're going to

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Speaker 2: get it somewhere else. And so the larger political movement

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Speaker 2: to align what schools are doing with what parents want is,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, very important.

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Speaker 1: I think this is a really important thing. Let me

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Speaker 1: say first of all, I think it's very important what

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Speaker 1: you do and what the beck At Fund does. There's

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Speaker 1: so many cases around the country now where the government

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Speaker 1: basically takes religion head on and limits our freedom despite

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Speaker 1: the First Amendment that having something like the Becket Fund

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Speaker 1: for Religious Liberty is really really important in protecting our

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Speaker 1: freedoms and exposing the scale of the government assault on

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Speaker 1: freedom of religion. And I think what you're doing is

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Speaker 1: really important for the country.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and we're certainly appreciative of We get

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Speaker 2: letters and emails from people around the country who appreciate

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Speaker 2: this case, and we're very appreciative of the support the

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Speaker 2: prayers donors who make this possible and the clients who

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Speaker 2: have the courage to stand up. You know, it's very

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Speaker 2: difficult for our clients who are often suing their kids' schools.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've brought cases against the military, lots of

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Speaker 2: cases against the federal government. It's very hard for people

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Speaker 2: to sue the government because there can be really severe

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Speaker 2: consequences and the power of one of the most powerful

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Speaker 2: entities on earth in the United States government and its agencies.

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Speaker 2: And so we're grateful that there are people who are

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Speaker 2: willing to stand up on these issues. And just for example,

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Speaker 2: to build on that a little bit, a thousand parents

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Speaker 2: at a school board meeting, it's really hard for many

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Speaker 2: of them to step up and be part of a lawsuits,

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Speaker 2: so finding parents who actually want to challenge it and

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Speaker 2: go to court, and so we're very appreciative of those

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Speaker 2: who have courage to continue standing up on these issues,

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Speaker 2: so letting their voices be heard and with civic dignity,

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Speaker 2: working to advance these issues to protect children and parents.

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Speaker 1: That's terrific. Eric. I want to thank you for joining me.

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Speaker 1: We will be closely watching the next steps in the

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Speaker 1: Pride story bookcase in Montgomery County, and I want to

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Speaker 1: personally thank you for continuing to fight for religious freedom

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Speaker 1: for all of us here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's our pleasure and thank you for having this

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Eric Baxter. You can learn

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Speaker 1: more about the Pride storybookcase and our show page at

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Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Ginger three sixty

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Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our

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Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was

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Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley Vicil. Thanks to the team at

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Speaker 1: Gingish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope

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Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can

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Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of neut

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Speaker 1: World consigner for my three freeweekly columns at gingishtree sixty

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Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is neut

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Speaker 1: World