Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookate F Daily with
Speaker 1: me your girl Danny al Moody, recording from the home
Speaker 1: bunker of folks. I am recording this prior to the
Speaker 1: President speaking addressing the nation, so you will have to
Speaker 1: follow my social media for my reactions to that. But
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to welcome back to the show. After
Speaker 1: his travel abroad, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel
Speaker 1: has returned. He has spent some time in London, he
Speaker 1: has spent some time back in Israel and comes back
Speaker 1: to join us and give us some insight into how
Speaker 1: people are feeling and talking about the US, talking about
Speaker 1: gun control, talking about a lot of different issues that
Speaker 1: overlap with what is happening here, folks. I'm getting ready
Speaker 1: to take a couple of days off, I know, shocking,
Speaker 1: but leaving you with some really great interviews that I
Speaker 1: have done over the past couple of days. I will
Speaker 1: be back live, you know, as it's a podcast, but
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, in a couple of days.
Speaker 1: But for all of the good things, you know, follow
Speaker 1: me on social because I never truly take off. So
Speaker 1: coming up next, our conversation with our in house doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, it has been weeks, weeks I think,
Speaker 1: since we have had our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan
Speaker 1: Metzel on with us. He left the country to go
Speaker 1: and travel and talk about racial justice, to go talk
Speaker 1: about gun reform, hop in from continent to continent. Jonathan,
Speaker 1: welcome back. Hey, it is so it is so great
Speaker 1: to see you. Tell us about your trip and tell
Speaker 1: us about where you were, what the vibe was, the conversation, etc.
Speaker 2: Well, it was a crazy time to be away. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's always crazy, So it was interesting. I mean, so
Speaker 2: I'll give you the three main components of the trip
Speaker 2: because they're also fascinating. So first I was in the
Speaker 2: UK and I was in Durham, which is up up
Speaker 2: in the north. It was freaking forty degrees in July,
Speaker 2: but beautiful. And then I was in London and I
Speaker 2: gave a number of talks in museums about guns in
Speaker 2: America and what the lessons are for the world about
Speaker 2: guns and democracy, and of course that happened while that
Speaker 2: assassination happened, a time to happen on Trump and so
Speaker 2: I was giving all these talks and people it's just
Speaker 2: interesting how people around the world like They're like, isn't
Speaker 2: this a wake up call? And people are going to
Speaker 2: come together?
Speaker 1: And I was like, and did you laugh at them?
Speaker 2: Well, I said, I said, actually, that is the premise
Speaker 2: of my entire book is why doesn't that happen? Is
Speaker 2: actually that these moments of polarizing crisis split people into
Speaker 2: two totally different camps. They actually see two different realities.
Speaker 2: And so the talks were interesting, but they were you know,
Speaker 2: there's like a little NR chapter in London, and by
Speaker 2: the time I finished my talk, everybody's like, we're going
Speaker 2: to shut that thing down. We don't let that coming here,
Speaker 2: and so it just, you know, it was it was
Speaker 2: interesting what you could see when you're talking about the
Speaker 2: United States about guns. People's mouths just drop open. They're like,
Speaker 2: what is what is going on there? So that was
Speaker 2: the UK part, and I have to say, go to London.
Speaker 2: It is really adorable right now. This is the city
Speaker 2: was really nice. And then I flew to the Middle
Speaker 2: East and so the second part of the trip I've
Speaker 2: done Physicians for Human Rights Israel Palestine for I think
Speaker 2: fifty teen years now, and it's an incredible coalition and
Speaker 2: I had a number of just like honestly life changing experiences,
Speaker 2: even though I am in that region all the time
Speaker 2: that it's just you can't really tell from here how
Speaker 2: complicated and nuanced and intermixed things are. I started in Beersheva,
Speaker 2: in this kind of Southernish part of Israel, but I
Speaker 2: spoke to a group of Jewish and Bedouin Arab doctors
Speaker 2: who were part of this coalition for Social Justice, and
Speaker 2: I said, what do you guys want me to talk about?
Speaker 2: And they were really interested in how can we learn
Speaker 2: about structural racism and address it? Which is just crazy
Speaker 2: that there's like a war going on the whole world
Speaker 2: is it's such an intense time. But they were really
Speaker 2: concerned about social justice and health equity. So just incredible
Speaker 2: testimonials about you know, really it's not even part of
Speaker 2: the story here, but what does it mean to be
Speaker 2: Bedouin in Israel right now? What kind of clu operations
Speaker 2: are happening, what kind of injustices are happening? And it
Speaker 2: was really really honest, And there are a number of
Speaker 2: places I toured and interviewed people and things like that.
Speaker 2: You know, there are companies that are half Jewish, half
Speaker 2: Bedouin across that area, and so that part was just
Speaker 2: incredibly powerful. That I was in the West Bank interviewing
Speaker 2: people for a while, and then I was in Tel
Speaker 2: Aviv as part of one of the huge anti Nittanya
Speaker 2: Who protests, which was I'll send you the pictures and
Speaker 2: the views. It was just just the bravery of people.
Speaker 2: People were speaking out, people whose families are still hostages.
Speaker 2: And another thing we don't hear here very often is
Speaker 2: that there are a number of Bedouin hostages also being
Speaker 2: held at Arab hostages being held by Hamas, and so
Speaker 2: their families spoke also, and it's just I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's crazy to go from there to like Nittanya Who
Speaker 2: speaking in Washington today, But I think, you know, it's
Speaker 2: just interesting. I mean, part of my frustration always when
Speaker 2: I do that work is there are such strong natural
Speaker 2: alliances between many parts of the American left and the
Speaker 2: broadly speaking Israeli left. I was on a panel on Sunday.
Speaker 2: The panel was about guns and gun violence because Israel's
Speaker 2: having like an NRA deal kind of peop they're handing
Speaker 2: out guns and so my panel was myself, someone who
Speaker 2: was a conservative who was very pro gun, and then
Speaker 2: two guns safety people, one of whom was Palestinian Israeli,
Speaker 2: and really took the state to task for colonialism and
Speaker 2: apartheid and all these things. And so I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's interesting that there are these kind of conversations in depth,
Speaker 2: in nuance, in ways that have been happening for a
Speaker 2: while there. But I don't know. It's just as you know,
Speaker 2: as I've said a million times here, my frustration is
Speaker 2: that the American left and the Israeli left have much
Speaker 2: more and then they realized, but not if the premise
Speaker 2: is we have nothing to say to each other. And
Speaker 2: so I don't know hopefully that we work backward from that.
Speaker 2: But it was really a powerful trip and it left me.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were some terrifying parts. So this is
Speaker 2: the last thing I'll say, which is I was fast
Speaker 2: asleep in my hotel and then a drone strike happened
Speaker 2: five blocks for me in Tel Aviv. The Houti drone
Speaker 2: strike from Yemen obliterated a building. And it was four am,
Speaker 2: and my entire bed shook and I fell out of bed,
Speaker 2: and I called the front desk of the hotel and
Speaker 2: I said, you got to fix this air conditioner, man,
Speaker 2: This thing is like so loud. I didn't know what
Speaker 2: it was when it turned out it was a massive
Speaker 2: building flattening wow thing. So I got a little taste
Speaker 2: of everything on this trip. And I'm sorry to ramble on,
Speaker 2: but it was just it was so powerful to see
Speaker 2: what was happening.
Speaker 1: You go to the Middle East fairly frequently, and war
Speaker 1: has been going on and I don't like to call
Speaker 1: it a war for the last you know, nine months.
Speaker 1: How are the sentiments obviously, like in this one strip
Speaker 1: of area there is nothing standing, there are no buildings,
Speaker 1: there is no nothing but devastation, hunger, and then just
Speaker 1: a short way away, like you're in a hotel, Like,
Speaker 1: what is the sentiment the energy that you experience while
Speaker 1: you're there.
Speaker 2: People are traumatized, they're exhausted. I met many people who
Speaker 2: were very directly affected by October seventh. I mean one
Speaker 2: woman I spoke with, she was the cultural out of
Speaker 2: Shaded Japan, and then she had six family members taken
Speaker 2: hostage or killed on October seventh. So people, if the
Speaker 2: hostage issue is very real for people, and the desire
Speaker 2: for a two state solution and ending the occupation, and
Speaker 2: what's happening in Gaza I think what akin to is,
Speaker 2: let's say Trump wins here and Project twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: takes over. You're protesting against the kind of government monolith
Speaker 2: that you feel doesn't represent you, even if that's your identity.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the case. People have been literally
Speaker 2: protesting every week for over a year now, and this
Speaker 2: protest was still massive, and so people are just trying
Speaker 2: to figure out what they can do.
Speaker 1: What they can do inside of a system where the
Speaker 1: government is non responsive to them.
Speaker 2: And that it's the similar thing to what could happen
Speaker 2: here and what's happened in other places is fascists learned
Speaker 2: how to hijack democracy basically, and so popular opinion and
Speaker 2: the will of the people was the idea of democracy
Speaker 2: as I understand it. But when you have people who
Speaker 2: are holding on to coalitions or power and creating true
Speaker 2: minority rule, which is true across a lot of the
Speaker 2: Middle East, like these radical groups take over and it
Speaker 2: happened in Israel. So I mean the hutis, you could argue,
Speaker 2: are not representative of all the people in Yemen. Iron
Speaker 2: is a huge player all these things. So I don't know,
Speaker 2: it feels like something's coming to a head to me.
Speaker 2: But I would just say people are exhausted and demoralized.
Speaker 2: I think if there was a viable piece plan that
Speaker 2: promised security, it would transform everything. And so hopefully that's
Speaker 2: where we're heading. But you know, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: don't want to. There's many, many, many, as I was saying,
Speaker 2: many different opinions in Israel. But I think ultimately people
Speaker 2: are traumatized and exhausted and looking for some kind of hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so grateful that you are back safe.
Speaker 2: There was a moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just I'm glad to see that you're back safe.
Speaker 1: I think that the work that you do Jonathan, obviously
Speaker 1: inside of the States is incredibly impactful and necessary. And
Speaker 1: we're very fortunate on wokay app that you share your
Speaker 1: giant brain with us every week. Oh my got But
Speaker 1: the work that you do abroad we don't get to see, right,
Speaker 1: So I love the fact that you can come back
Speaker 1: here and kind of give us an overview of that work.
Speaker 1: So switching gears. As you had mentioned at the top,
Speaker 1: Netanyahu is on American soil right now, and Biden is
Speaker 1: not going to see him. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: Biden has decided to pretty much not give a fuck
Speaker 1: that he is speaking and is addressing the nation tonight
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock. Kamala Harris, who you know is now
Speaker 1: our Democratic nominee after I mean, I cannot believe that
Speaker 1: it's only been a couple of days since Sunday when
Speaker 1: this seismic shift happened. So first, let me ask you
Speaker 1: about the seismic shift and your reaction to that, and
Speaker 1: then the fact that the Vice President is not going
Speaker 1: to be overseeing this session, she will meet with Netan
Speaker 1: Yahoo in private and your reactions to that. But first,
Speaker 1: this seismic shift in our politics while you were still gone, I.
Speaker 2: Was following it, and I'm not trying to tease you
Speaker 2: except maybe a little bit through your tweets at through
Speaker 2: your instagrams, and I'm going to make like a like
Speaker 2: an interactive art exhibit from your tweets. Yeah and so, yeah,
Speaker 2: and so it was awesome, man, because like two weeks ago,
Speaker 2: I think you were saying, like two weeks ago with
Speaker 2: you were on fire. But I think you know, I
Speaker 2: think for a lot of us, we just didn't believe
Speaker 2: this kind of transformation should happen. I have to say
Speaker 2: that what this means is TVD still. I mean, the
Speaker 2: ship has not hit yet, but it's incredible, this kind
Speaker 2: of energy that I think we were kind of looking
Speaker 2: for in a week. So I just think that that
Speaker 2: shift where change is terrifying. And there was a sad
Speaker 2: story of Biden who had done many good things, some
Speaker 2: not good things, and so that was hard. But I
Speaker 2: just think that I do think that there was a
Speaker 2: narrative of the people who are pushing out Biden are
Speaker 2: the ones who have the least to lose, and I
Speaker 2: have to say I don't think that was the case
Speaker 2: in retrospect. I think it was a really brave decision.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I just think that we had
Speaker 2: we had to change the channel. We were going to
Speaker 2: get our ask kicked, and I feel like now we
Speaker 2: have a fighting chance. You know, a lot of things
Speaker 2: are going to happen, and the gates of wrath have
Speaker 2: not happened. But I yet, but I would say that
Speaker 2: in a way, this is I think for me, I
Speaker 2: just agree that we're in a much stronger position now
Speaker 2: than we were a week ago. And and so for me,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of questions about how she runs
Speaker 2: the campaign, about all the decisions she makes about how
Speaker 2: they respond to the Montel Williams montage that's coming and
Speaker 2: all these other things, and so but I think that
Speaker 2: in a way, you're kind of feeling energy and optimism,
Speaker 2: which I think we weren't feeling a week ago. So
Speaker 2: in general, I think this is great. I think I
Speaker 2: wish it would have happened weeks earlier to even cement
Speaker 2: it more. I'm curious to see what Biden says tonight,
Speaker 2: But in general, I'm inspired by other places. Right there
Speaker 2: were other countries like France and England that were looking
Speaker 2: into the real Abyss and then said, screw it, we're
Speaker 2: gonna do something brave. And I didn't know we had
Speaker 2: it in us, And now I think we did something brave,
Speaker 2: and so you know, let's keep it going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that one. It's hard for me
Speaker 1: to kind of wrap my head around the fact that
Speaker 1: we are just at the time of this recording, three
Speaker 1: days removed from the announcement from the seismic shift, because
Speaker 1: it feels like it happened months ago. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Meaning that like so much has happened
Speaker 1: in the last three days that it has been so
Speaker 1: energizing and I'll say, you know, to the comment about
Speaker 1: you know, my social media before before Sunday, I was happing,
Speaker 1: and everybody that listens to the show knows that, like
Speaker 1: I had pretty much bottomed out. There was zero hope,
Speaker 1: there was zero faith, there was zero anything. And I
Speaker 1: was in a very like depressed state, and you know,
Speaker 1: my friends and my family and folks are just like,
Speaker 1: we'll get through this, and I was just like, I
Speaker 1: don't think that you understand what is like what is
Speaker 1: in front of us, Like we're not going to get
Speaker 1: through this like I was. It was really bad. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize Jonathan, how powerful hope is. And I think
Speaker 1: that because it is something that literally was the engine
Speaker 1: of the Obama campaign, and that feels like it was
Speaker 1: so many decades ago that when you and I would
Speaker 1: have these conversations and we'd keep saying like, people need
Speaker 1: to feel energized, people need to feel x Y and Z,
Speaker 1: I was just like, well, isn't fear energizing enough, right,
Speaker 1: and recognizing that it's not. It really is not that hopelessness,
Speaker 1: that anxiety, that fear was making people feel despondent, disconnected
Speaker 1: and just none of this matters. And to see the
Speaker 1: way that so many I mean, the organizing that I
Speaker 1: am seeing happen, that I am being pulled into in
Speaker 1: just three days is nothing short of extraordinary. And I
Speaker 1: think that people are so in this in a way
Speaker 1: that it took them a long time to get invested
Speaker 1: in Obama. This is a completely different and energy shift,
Speaker 1: seismic shift. And because the stakes are so high that
Speaker 1: you're seeing people organize in a way that they have
Speaker 1: not organized before.
Speaker 2: I mean, I completely agree, and it's just shocking because
Speaker 2: I don't know, four months ago, Kamala Harris was not
Speaker 2: the perfect candidate. Right now, you know, she's no matter
Speaker 2: what side of you're on, you could figure out something
Speaker 2: you didn't agree with. And now, I think for the
Speaker 2: most part, at least right now, people are realizing that
Speaker 2: the fact that she is many things, including as interest,
Speaker 2: kind of lets us pitch a tent that is pretty broad.
Speaker 2: And so somehow the circumstances, you know, everything is timing,
Speaker 2: and the timing among other things could not have been better.
Speaker 2: And I'm really encouraged also that her message so far.
Speaker 2: I just think that people were starting to tune out
Speaker 2: about the We're ending democracy. It was way too abstract,
Speaker 2: and it's true for people who are already going to vote,
Speaker 2: who would have voted for Job of the Hut as
Speaker 2: a Democrat or anybody. So I think the fact that
Speaker 2: she's concretely saying here's what my vision of the future
Speaker 2: looks like and being really material about it, I think
Speaker 2: is a really good move because it's not just demonizing
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. I mean, you're trying to also appeal to
Speaker 2: some people who were thinking they were going to vote
Speaker 2: for Donald Trump. And so I think the more of
Speaker 2: that she can do, which is tied to what you're
Speaker 2: saying about Hope, I think it's important. I'll tell you
Speaker 2: and we can talk about this more. I wish I
Speaker 2: could talk to people about her messaging about guns, you know,
Speaker 2: as one issue. I don't know what role it's going
Speaker 2: to play, maybe not a huge one. But I do
Speaker 2: think that the message of my work repeatedly is that
Speaker 2: if you're trying to appeal to like centrist voters who
Speaker 2: are gun owners, just saying I'm going to regulate guns
Speaker 2: without talking about why people own guns. You know, the
Speaker 2: people who believe in gun control already do so they're
Speaker 2: already voting Democrat. But if you're trying to appeal to
Speaker 2: like Purple state undecided voters. I just I wish I
Speaker 2: could help with the messaging about guns, because that's the
Speaker 2: one area where just coming in and saying we're going
Speaker 2: to do background checks and rifle bands and all these
Speaker 2: kind of things. I want all that stuff, but it
Speaker 2: just it doesn't speak to the reality of kind of
Speaker 2: acknowledging why people own guns, which I feel like is
Speaker 2: such an easy message shift that she could also make.
Speaker 2: So we'll see about that.
Speaker 1: But we'll go call on the campaign. Jo Yi and.
Speaker 2: Ya.
Speaker 1: You know, I know some people. Let me ask you
Speaker 1: this before I let you go to in. You know,
Speaker 1: probably it's possible at the end of this week. It's
Speaker 1: possible at the beginning of next that we will know
Speaker 1: who her vice presidential pick is. Do you have any
Speaker 1: thoughts on the names that have been floating, like who
Speaker 1: you would like to see or who you think it
Speaker 1: would be.
Speaker 2: Well, I've been tweeting that a Harris Whitmer ticket would
Speaker 2: be awesome.
Speaker 1: Oh okay for months.
Speaker 2: I've been treating that and nobody. Everybody told me I
Speaker 2: was insane. It's not gonna happen. But I don't think.
Speaker 1: No, it's not, but I think.
Speaker 2: This conventional wisdom that has to be somebody boring. I
Speaker 2: don't know, she just had a white guy as a
Speaker 2: you know whatever, So I don't really totally buy that,
Speaker 2: you know, and and now's the time to like be bold, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody thought this past week could happen in
Speaker 2: a certain kind of way. So I just think the
Speaker 2: idea that she needs a white guy to balance her out,
Speaker 2: I just have a problem with that, with that narrative,
Speaker 2: And so I hope they make the right choice. I
Speaker 2: hope they choose you know, the Mona Lisa. You feel
Speaker 2: like she's looking at you no matter where in the
Speaker 2: room you're you're standing, somebody who can like kind of
Speaker 2: appeal broadly. I don't know. I have been a fan
Speaker 2: of Shapiro. I think he's terrific on that, but I think, again,
Speaker 2: just to be clear, I want to pick whoever is
Speaker 2: going to help us win the allection. So yeah, but
Speaker 2: what I was going to say is, I can see
Speaker 2: how Shapiro would be a non starter for many younger people.
Speaker 2: So I think it'll probably be Mark Kelly. That would
Speaker 2: be my guest as to who they're gonna choose, because
Speaker 2: he kind of doesn't piss anybody off. But I don't know,
Speaker 2: So I didn't answer who I want.
Speaker 1: I answered, well, you said Whitmer, Well, yeah, but.
Speaker 2: That's not gonna happen. But yeah, I bet it'll be
Speaker 2: I bet it'll be Kelly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only reason I was interrupting in to say
Speaker 1: Shapiro is that, like, I think there are certain people
Speaker 1: that I think need to hold down their states. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so in looking at the larger picture and looking
Speaker 1: at how we believe that this election is going to
Speaker 1: be as contentious as twenty twenty, I think that there
Speaker 1: are people that need to stay in their governor roles
Speaker 1: to hold down their states, right, And so that's the
Speaker 1: only reason and Andrew just text and said, you know,
Speaker 1: Shapiro is not even popular in Pennsylvania, like wildly, wildly
Speaker 1: in terms of like you know, oh, this would be
Speaker 1: a progressive and this would be like a rocking type
Speaker 1: of ticket. A lot of people have talked about Andy Basheer.
Speaker 1: I like Andy Basheer a lot, but I also think
Speaker 1: that you don't really get anything. You're not gonna necessarily
Speaker 1: you're not turning the state of Kentucky, Like Kentucky's not
Speaker 1: going to turn blue. So I like him as a
Speaker 1: person though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean how many times have I said Andy
Speaker 2: Basheer in our conversation. It's like a million, right, because
Speaker 2: I think he's really effective, he's great.
Speaker 1: But again I think that he should hold down this
Speaker 1: state of conducted state of Kentuck.
Speaker 2: Well, me, if people become the nominee, do they have
Speaker 2: to give up their governorship or do they just put
Speaker 2: it on hold? What do they do?
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think that you just I would assume that
Speaker 1: your deputy comes in so that you can campaign. But obviously,
Speaker 1: if they were to be elected, then what's the possibility
Speaker 1: that there's going to be another Democratic governor of Kentucky.
Speaker 1: Probably not going to happen, and he was just reelected.
Speaker 1: So to me, I think that the calculus is looking
Speaker 1: like Mark Kelly, and I think that for a number
Speaker 1: of reasons, I think that that could be a very
Speaker 1: good move to combat the veteran astronaut husband of Gabby Giffords,
Speaker 1: like you know, gun Refort, like all of these things.
Speaker 1: Like I think that he brings a lot to that
Speaker 1: ticket and he's you know, senator. But again, democratic governor
Speaker 1: will appoint a Democrat to fill his seat, so it's
Speaker 1: less of a risk as opposed to everybody else.
Speaker 2: So that's like and again, you know, there's you could
Speaker 2: make an argument, there's no there's no slam done here.
Speaker 2: I Shapiro is a great speaker. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've heard him, Yes, that speak, but he's a really
Speaker 2: good speaker. So again, everybody has their strengths, and everybody
Speaker 2: has their pluses and minuses. Again, I just I want
Speaker 2: to win. I don't care about any other category here
Speaker 2: right now. So tell me who's going to who's going
Speaker 2: to give us the best chance to win?
Speaker 1: Well, we will leave it there today, my friend, glad
Speaker 1: that you were back safely and that you came back
Speaker 1: to a seismic shift here in the United States. You know,
Speaker 1: but everything feels a lot more possible now than it
Speaker 1: did the last time we spoke, so that in and
Speaker 1: of itself feels like a win. So we'll pick it
Speaker 1: up again next week, my friend, I appreciate.
Speaker 2: You, Thank you, Thank you. Talk to Suke.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today, Dear friends on Woke
Speaker 1: af as always, Power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.