WEBVTT - And, This Is Former MAGA Influencer Ashley St. Clair 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.400 I think I'm most disappointed in Elon. I think divorce 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.000 is an option when your spouse wants to kill you. Yeah. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.160 I was offered forty million dollars which included an NDA 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.080 and non discouragement into eternity, which I declined. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:14.920 So, if you've ever wondered about the inner workings of 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:19.320 the Mega movement, what actually happens on the group chats? 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.360 Who's on the group chats? How coordinated is the Mega 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.960 Movement coming out of the White House, in the political 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.400 operation to influencers, to right wing media. While I've got 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.560 the perfect guest for you, Ashley Saint Clair. She spent 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.280 post to a decade in this movement and now she 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.360 is speaking out against the thing that she works so 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.800 hard to advance. This is Gavin. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:55.080 Newsom and this is Ashley Saint Clair. Thanks for having me, guvnor. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.560 So, Ashley, it's so interesting. Just a lot of clips 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.440 out there about you, a lot of energy of you know, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.399 a lot of conversations and uh, and it's in you know, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.240 not I think a lot of you know, feigning praise, 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:13.039 not criticism necessarily, but but you're playing to an audience, right, 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.720 You're sort of emerging out of this MAGA sort of 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:22.240 you know, influence space, this surround sound that a lot 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.800 of us are on the receiving end of, including myself. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.280 So I have some intimate appreciation, uh for what they produce, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.959 but I have little knowledge for how they produce it. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.560 And so I'm fascinated by this opportunity. I'm very grateful 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.679 for you be willing to share just your insights without 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:42.760 you know, and I'm not looking to tear anybody down, 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.280 but just to understand the ecosystem that you came out 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.200 of and why you're coming out of that ecosystem and 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.200 what all of this represents to you. So maybe the 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.360 best way to start is really for you to introduce 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.360 yourself in the context of this journey to our audience. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.640 I have to preface this too by saying apologies, because 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.800 I am almost positive I have probably cyberbullied you in 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.120 my MAGAAE because it's like a prerequisite to being in MAGA, 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.520 because you're a very popular figure for us to cyberbully. 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.480 But I got my start very young as soon as 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.920 I when I started college. Right before I started college, 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.080 there was a Trump rally on my campus, so I 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.359 was immediately going to that and seeing this energy around it. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.280 And then I joined college. I had a bit more 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.160 of a cerebral side because I was homeschooled in high school, 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.079 so I enjoyed the more political aspects of the Young 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:38.720 Americans for Liberty groups that were built on free speech 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.760 and personal liberties, and then very quickly got involved in 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.680 the Turning Point apparatus and tweeting into the ether about 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:51.080 these conservatisms, these magaisms, and it just snowballed from there. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.560 All of a sudden, I'm invited to as a special 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.079 guest to my first Turning Point event. I have Charlie 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.560 Kirk saying, you know, you're doing a good job, and 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:03.119 I'm getting praised from downtow and as like a very broken, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.680 insecure girl who was looking for some sort of belonging 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.720 who didn't have that in high school. That was really 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:15.160 attractive to me in a harmful way. And then I 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.520 just I got caught up. I made a lot of 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.520 very wrong decisions about who I surrounded myself with and 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.120 the places that I got validation from, which ended up 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:30.280 being MAGA and this influencer culture. And very shortly afterwards, 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.000 you're in this environment in which they tell you don't 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.920 need school you don't need college, only listen to you know, truth, 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.840 social and Twitter and all of this, and you're sequestered 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.000 from information. You're told not to trust your professors or 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.520 these points of authority. And I dropped out and just 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.920 made this my entire identity. So then it's when you leave. 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.840 I often say it's not just changing your political beliefs 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.840 and saying, oh, I'm not as fiscally conservative now, or 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.040 I'm more socially liberal. You're blowing up your entire life 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:07.160 because your your social community, your finances, everything is is 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.840 structured in this way. So it's indistinguishable from a cult 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:12.400 in that aspect. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.480 Yeah, I mean, listening to describe it, I mean you 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.960 by definition start thinking in those terms. But let me 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.320 unpack this a little bit. I mean this notion of belonging. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.560 I think it's fascinating in this sense of belonging, this identity. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.280 And so you you describe a Trump rally, I mean, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.000 was it really that moment? Was it just watching that energy, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.400 the crowd, this community that inspired you or were you 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.919 naturally prone? Were you, you know, what was your politics 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.599 sort of leaning in that direction? Were you frustrated with 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.600 the status quo? Uh? And you you know, how did 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.120 how did how did sort of that? How did Trump 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.159 ignite in you? Or what was it that ignited? 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.760 It was more of this contrarian take. I always liked 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.280 being a contrarian. And all of the heads of the 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.680 philosophy department and I went for philosophy at that time, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.680 had signed a petition to ban Trump from campus. And 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.280 in my head, I'm like, oh, that's antithetical to everything 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.760 philosophy is about. But in retrospect, they were right, because 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.719 this rhetoric was going down a very dangerous and violent path. 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.080 But in my head at that time as this, you know, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.640 I hadn't quite turned eighteen yet. I went to this 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.720 rally at seventeen years old, and I turned eighteen right 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.840 before I started, and it was, you know, to me, 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.920 I'm like, wow, there's all this energy and people like 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.640 me and this is fun. And I didn't have any 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.680 of that in high school. I didn't go to prom, 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.200 I didn't do any of that. So it was this 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:39.160 validation very quickly that I had never really experienced before. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.280 And were you I'm just curious, were your parents in 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.640 political were you political necessarily or just you just had 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.760 that little contrary and beat. 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.200 So we moved from South Florida, which was a lot 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.040 more diverse, and all my families from New York, from 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.400 Queens and other areas that are more diverse. But throughout 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.840 my life we also moved to very rural areas such 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:04.560 as Alabama and Montana, and so while I wasn't necessarily 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.560 getting very conservative viewpoints at home, I was surrounded by it. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.839 Like in Montana, the most unique sentence ever. My only 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.920 friend there was a female Mennonite lumberjack. And so it's 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.800 like it's a town of two hundred and fifty people. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.120 And so I wasn't really exposed to varying viewpoints outside 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.400 of the Internet. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.880 Right, And so you're you're you have this moment they're 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.360 trying to silence Trump, You're like, this is wrong. You 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.040 you buy down. And by the way, and there's you know, 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.400 you were quick to say maybe they were right, but 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.960 maybe they weren't right. And that's a deeper conversation we 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.280 can have about this notion of free speech and sort 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:43.760 of the origin story of a little bit of what 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.960 you know sort of has created this movement out of 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.240 anger and frustration of quote unquote being canceled and not 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.640 having necessarily those platforms that others, frankly it oftentimes take 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.360 for granted. But I'm curious. You know, you talk about 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.920 going feeling some identity energy. You're homeschooled. Now all of 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.360 a sudden, there's a community that's trying to pull you in. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.320 Is it just pull you in on the basis of 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.800 just the joy of being the contrary and the joy 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.680 of expressing yourself fully and the sort of diversity of 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.480 opinion was what was the thing that sort of attracted. 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.160 Sort of It's also just having friends, you know, because 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.640 when you're in such an isolated community, like in the 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.200 middle of nowhere, Montana, and then you're here and you're 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.880 being invited as a special guest to Turning Point, and 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.400 you feel like you're all of a sudden, not this 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.560 you know, little small girl. You're important and people care 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.960 what you have to say. That's really validating in a 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:41.840 harmful way. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.440 And so you talk about Turning Point, I mean that 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.960 was a turning point for you. I mean, was that 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.720 organization you know, that was sort of the beginning of 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.560 the organization right when Charlie. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.560 Was It was very early on, and it was very 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:02.000 campus oriented and again simultaneously, part of it coincides with 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.800 the content, right, because you're also posting online and there's 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.640 these stories going up on Fox News of professors who 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.840 say something that's a little too woke, and so you're 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.120 going to school, but you're viewing it through this content 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:16.720 brain of ooh, am I going to get one, ooh, 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.680 I can't trust them, and so it really bastardizes your 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.320 experience in academia because you're viewing it through this, like 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.400 Charlie Kirk turning point content brain that is really harmful. 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.160 And when you were with Charlie, I mean, did what 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.680 you know, it's interesting we started this podcast with Charlie 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.600 and you know, obviously tragic what happened to him. And 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.240 I'm interested in look forward to your thoughts about where 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:47.000 the movement is today. But what aspects of that movement? 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.400 What was it about Charlie in the beginning of that 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.120 movement that you really may not have identified with necessarily 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.480 on the substance, but just the style that there was 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.600 something here that he was doing that no one else 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.560 was necessarily doing. What was you know, success leaves clues 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.160 and he was successful at organizing the campus is I'm 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.880 curious what examples were cues did you see or clues 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.080 early on of this sort of genesis of success. 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.280 He articulated himself well, but also when you're capitalism brained, 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.440 you view any mode of success or ambition as a 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:25.160 moral good. So ambition and success was equated with morality 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.360 in my head. So I'm like, Wow, he's so young 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.880 and successful, and that could be me too. All I 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:31.640 need to do is drop out of school and keep 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.280 fighting the good fight. And so I think that's But 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:40.280 Charlie at times was also encouraging, you know, at times 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.319 when I had tough times in Republican politics, and so 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.560 he had this softer side that was captivating to people 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.400 who were going through a lot. And I don't think 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.560 he was quite aware of the way in which his 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.040 organization was and has been used by people much bigger, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.080 with a lot more money than him, to utilize it 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.200 for their own agenda and mobilize this sort of rhetoric 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:03.480 across America. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.880 So, Ashley, how old were you at the time, I 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.640 mean your young twenties this time. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.120 Or twenty seven? Well now I'm twenty seven now I was. 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.720 This happened right away when I was eighteen going on 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.000 college campuses. I went to my first turning point event 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.000 like nineteen twenty and so it was very early on. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.680 And so was this I mean, did this become a 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.560 profession then for you? I mean you morphed in all 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.360 of a sudden. What was the first opportunity to monetize 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.480 where you realize, wait a second, I'm getting paid for this. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.880 So it was actually I had had like normal jobs 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.360 working in campaigns and cleaning up bad data and volunteering. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.200 But I dated a man who was ten years my senior, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.840 and I met him at the Young Women's Leadership Conference 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.760 and within a month of meeting him, he's like, moved 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.520 to Tampa with me. You can just do maga influencing. 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:56.240 He was this big influencer guy DC Dreno, and he's like, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.280 here's how you do it. Here's the sign you hold 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.319 up outside of the iced attention set. This will go viral. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.760 Here's the shirts you can sell, the flags you can sell. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.439 And that's when I started learning how to monetize activism 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.440 and learn that it's it's an industry. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.040 It's interesting, and you made the point earlier and you're 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.520 reinforcing it now. I mean the connection between the movement 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.679 and the medium, which is the media and the clips 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.239 and the virality in the ability quote unquote influence substantively 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.520 and breakthrough. And so that's interesting. So he sort of 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:36.840 he designed in your mind. Yeah, and so you see 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:42.640 you're out there and you're feeling a sense of community connection, relationships. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.200 But also fear because what that boyfriend of mine had 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.839 drove into my head was there were a few times 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.719 I found myself in controversy for you know, stepping out 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.040 a line, for having a more reasonable take on reproductive 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.000 rights or immigration, and he drove into my head he said, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.640 never cross the base. Never cross the base, and that's 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.679 very much prolific throughout MAGA. You're not supposed to do that. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.000 So so while it was these good feelings, it was 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.200 also very quickly a feeling of fear of stepping out 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.760 of line and staying within the talking points. And you 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.920 know you're going to get canceled now you've dropped out 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.360 of school, you'll lose your income, you're moving to a 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.640 place far, far away from home, and so so the 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.920 fear aspect took took a fact very early on as well. 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.080 It's interesting and I want to unpack that as well. Particularly, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.600 you know, what is the base with the basis, whatever 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.720 Trump says it is because he seems to shape shift 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.760 often on issues, and with it, the base seems to 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.200 move along with him. I guess it's just waiting for 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.600 that cue. But I'm curious, just back to your first paycheck. 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.240 Do you remember where you actually, you know, someone said 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.040 here's a thousand bucks or you know, how did it? 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.600 How was what was the what was the formal relationship 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.640 and role to someone that can write a check? 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.120 The boss believe it was just an Instagram message or 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.640 Twitter DM that was like I'll pay you to retweet 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.720 this or post this, and then I got, you know, 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.000 other ones for wearing the T shirts or the deals 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.240 for hey, make your own T shirts, antisocialist social club, 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.000 all of the I believe I also had one that 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:18.480 set up May California, America. Again, there were a few 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.640 of those, but it was just through dms and here's 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:26.319 a PayPal and I'm like, oh, look at this very quickly, you. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.640 Know, because I've gotten to know some of these folks, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.840 and you know, I sort of an interesting history and 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.800 relationship to a little bit of the Trump passed and 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.040 which I'm unpacked modestly here on the podcast. But I'm curious. 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.120 You know, how much of it for you was real 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.640 versus performative? How much of it was substance versus style? Meaning? 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.080 Were these true believers that you were surrounded by, or 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.680 performers that were just trying to sort of, you know, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.640 own the Libs, own that governor in California and just 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:03.280 don't you know, don't California, Maya, Montana or mon Texas. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.160 I mean, what, you know, what was it about what 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.240 we're against or but what we're for? Give me a 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.640 sense of you know, who were the early influences for you? 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.400 Was it a sense of deep sincerity conviction? 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.200 For me? It started out that way. And I think 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.440 most of these people would tell you that they are 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:23.520 true believers, but they're performed. They really are performers who 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.400 have gotten so deep and their views have oscillated so 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:31.120 much within what's acceptable within the base that they're just 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.880 deeply broken and insecure people who lack any real sense 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.160 of identity. What was fascinating is when you go to 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.080 events or you go to the bar with these people, afterwards, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.800 they can't talk about anything else, like it's they're only 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.280 talking about do you see what Joe Biden did? Did 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.880 you see this like it's they're not their shells of 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.600 human beings who are wearing this Maga costume and it's 0:14:55.640 --> 0:15:00.760 become their entire identity. Nobody's nobody's really talking about things, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.360 and so I do believe that they're all performers. I 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.800 believe Maga has the deepest issues with identity that I've 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.080 ever had the displeasure of interacting with. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.880 And again, identity on the basis of just who I 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:19.160 mean as individuals, yes, who that yeah, sort of, and 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.160 they're in the process of becoming and discovering who they are, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.680 but they put this mask on. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.560 They've never had the opportunity to become because they've been 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.840 plucked and told what to be, and so they don't 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.600 ever have that opportunity of becoming. And now with this 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.720 age of the Internet, it's very hard to have that rebirth, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.960 to have that reinvention because you have this permanent digital 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.480 footprint of you being a racist online. So it's very 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.720 hard to have a rebirth after that. So they're kind 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.080 of stuck in that as well. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:54.119 It's interesting, so is this so with your own experience 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.640 and you know a little bit of with Charlie Kirk 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.480 and turning point USA you're starting to you know, ex 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.800 boyfriend and you know, learning how to put ship post 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.280 as we say, and you know, putting on you know 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:10.400 literally physically, you know, showing up with signs and T shirts, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.080 et cetera. Is it a loose confederation or has it 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.880 evolved or devolved? Is it organized? Is it you know, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.800 is it become radically different than it was three four 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.720 years ago? Trump one point zero versus Trump two point zero. 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.200 Are there sort of central key figures that are organizing 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.560 and sharing down a vision or is it again a 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.360 bottom up but within the dear leader's frame? How would 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.800 you describe the confederation or lack thereof the brand mega. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.880 So a lot of people will say, you know, they 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.880 were duped by Trump and it's really evolved from what 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.240 it was years ago. But what I would say to 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.240 that is it it did evolve into the form that 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.680 people warned us it was going to evolve into. Yes, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.600 it has changed, but it changed into what I would 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.120 say now is like this final form of this or 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.880 tyrianism that we were warned that it was going to 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.240 evolve into. It was a natural evolution of the things 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:11.320 that were being prepped Originally. Yeah, it was more open tent, 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.120 it was a little more Okay, we don't hate trans 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.760 and gay people. Okay, we we love our token block conservatives. 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.480 And then it really once they gained more of a 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.119 foothold of power, you saw that section off. And I 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.520 do believe that was by design. 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.600 In design Where I mean, is is this Trump power? Yeah? 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.920 And the tech for power and that power lies where 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.800 is it Trump himself? Is it Junior? Is it where? 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.040 I mean? Who? You know? We can and we'll jump 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.199 into some names and James more the contemporary names and 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.160 the political operation. But early on, where did you see 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.280 the power reside? 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.840 You know, four five six years ago, four or five 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.719 six years ago, the power was really with Trump. And 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.159 I do believe that Trump as a figure was co 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.000 opted by the Stephen Millers of the world and the 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.480 people who are really financially invested and ideologically invested in 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.240 their own vision for America. And now we're seeing it 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.120 being co opted further by the tech oligarchs and all 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.560 of this. That it's the power is really consolidating among this. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:19.280 I mean, you have Jeff Bezos who won't say a 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.760 bad thing about Trump now, so they're really aligning with 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.479 where they see this power Trump was years ago just 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.679 a figure that they realized we can co opt this 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.560 guy for our own agenda. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.960 And early on who are who are those early figures 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.480 and what were what was What was the agenda when 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.919 you first started. I mean, obviously you talk about I mean, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.400 there's issues of reproductive rights, you talk about some those 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.760 I think there's these are contrarian issues and just you know, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.440 anti obviously the elites and you know, all those the 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:59.280 Biden and Harris and Obama types myself imagine California included. 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.080 But what I mean, what was the uniting construct in 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.320 the beginning of your experience with Maga. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.240 The uniting construct was mostly these magaisms of free speech 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.480 and holding the elites accountable, But there was also, particularly 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.200 within the right wing online sphere, there was a lot 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.560 of gendered issues. It was very anti feminism. It was 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.840 the birthplace in the foundations of the Andrew Tates of 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.840 the world. And what we're seeing now that has really 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.600 evolved very anti feminism, very anti me too, like why 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.280 are you just hating on the white guy type of stuff, 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.600 and they would utilize people like me, And I remember 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.320 there was a very large MAGA figure when I first 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.840 started blowing up online who came to me and said 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.240 you should speak on this issue. I think it was 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.000 a lead of Battle Angel or whatever. They were mad 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.119 that bre Larsen had said something against white men, straight 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.600 white men, and so very early on I was co 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.879 opted to speak on these issues regarding men because it 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.240 was better for it to come from a woman like me, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.560 and so that was very pertinent early on was. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.840 And it's interesting you say co opted, meaning at the 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.360 time you didn't feel co opted though, right, No. 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.639 I thought they were coming to me because I was 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.960 so such a special snowflake, and so it was smart 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.879 and I was like, I've been chosen, and you know, 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.960 I called the pygmisms like I just so wanted to 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.560 be picked and heard, and so in that moment you 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:28.919 don't feel but in retrospect, I'm like, wow, I was 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.720 I was used by these people for something really, really 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.560 harmful that I'm scared we're not going to be able 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:37.080 to undo. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.959 Did you what was it? Do you remember the post 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.000 that really where you felt like you're now deep inside this, 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:49.040 like now you're actually even surprised you how viral a 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.800 statement was or an issue was something that for you 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.000 became more indelible and a consciousness of how powerful this 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.800 movement is and how powerful even your voice would become. 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.399 So for a while, I was like mostly a ship poster. 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.000 I would pretend to be serious at times, but it 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.080 wasn't really until I was with Elon that I would 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:14.120 see some of these effects of my words or effects 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:18.200 of Elon himself, that I'm like, this is actually really consequential. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.240 And it sounds not even stupid to say, oh, you 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.600 didn't realize till then that your actions had so many consequences. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.719 And that's something that I've really had to unpack and 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.960 unpack the harm that I did for nearly a decade 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.639 in this movement, saying things in the communities that I 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:39.480 hurt women, minorities, the trans community. I just didn't even consider. 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.360 I was completely unempathetic to how my words and actions 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.560 impacted other people. And I've had to do a lot 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.560 of work making amends for that and really saying, hey, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.280 here's where I went wrong, here's where I was lacking, 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.360 and trying to understand why I made those decisions. 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.879 So it's interesting in it, and I don't want to 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:05.960 over index our time on Elon, but as someone that 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:11.160 knew Elon, you know, back in the day, and seeing 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.399 him radically change from the person I remember back in 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.680 early two thousands, particularly politically. 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.200 Yeah, I would say he probably didn't change. People just 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:27.760 weren't listening to the stories, particularly of women that he 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.480