Speaker 1: I think I'm most disappointed in Elon. I think divorce
Speaker 1: is an option when your spouse wants to kill you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was offered forty million dollars which included an NDA
Speaker 1: and non discouragement into eternity, which I declined.
Speaker 2: So, if you've ever wondered about the inner workings of
Speaker 2: the Mega movement, what actually happens on the group chats?
Speaker 2: Who's on the group chats? How coordinated is the Mega
Speaker 2: Movement coming out of the White House, in the political
Speaker 2: operation to influencers, to right wing media. While I've got
Speaker 2: the perfect guest for you, Ashley Saint Clair. She spent
Speaker 2: post to a decade in this movement and now she
Speaker 2: is speaking out against the thing that she works so
Speaker 2: hard to advance. This is Gavin.
Speaker 1: Newsom and this is Ashley Saint Clair. Thanks for having me, guvnor.
Speaker 2: So, Ashley, it's so interesting. Just a lot of clips
Speaker 2: out there about you, a lot of energy of you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of conversations and uh, and it's in you know,
Speaker 2: not I think a lot of you know, feigning praise,
Speaker 2: not criticism necessarily, but but you're playing to an audience, right,
Speaker 2: You're sort of emerging out of this MAGA sort of
Speaker 2: you know, influence space, this surround sound that a lot
Speaker 2: of us are on the receiving end of, including myself.
Speaker 2: So I have some intimate appreciation, uh for what they produce,
Speaker 2: but I have little knowledge for how they produce it.
Speaker 2: And so I'm fascinated by this opportunity. I'm very grateful
Speaker 2: for you be willing to share just your insights without
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm not looking to tear anybody down,
Speaker 2: but just to understand the ecosystem that you came out
Speaker 2: of and why you're coming out of that ecosystem and
Speaker 2: what all of this represents to you. So maybe the
Speaker 2: best way to start is really for you to introduce
Speaker 2: yourself in the context of this journey to our audience.
Speaker 1: I have to preface this too by saying apologies, because
Speaker 1: I am almost positive I have probably cyberbullied you in
Speaker 1: my MAGAAE because it's like a prerequisite to being in MAGA,
Speaker 1: because you're a very popular figure for us to cyberbully.
Speaker 1: But I got my start very young as soon as
Speaker 1: I when I started college. Right before I started college,
Speaker 1: there was a Trump rally on my campus, so I
Speaker 1: was immediately going to that and seeing this energy around it.
Speaker 1: And then I joined college. I had a bit more
Speaker 1: of a cerebral side because I was homeschooled in high school,
Speaker 1: so I enjoyed the more political aspects of the Young
Speaker 1: Americans for Liberty groups that were built on free speech
Speaker 1: and personal liberties, and then very quickly got involved in
Speaker 1: the Turning Point apparatus and tweeting into the ether about
Speaker 1: these conservatisms, these magaisms, and it just snowballed from there.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I'm invited to as a special
Speaker 1: guest to my first Turning Point event. I have Charlie
Speaker 1: Kirk saying, you know, you're doing a good job, and
Speaker 1: I'm getting praised from downtow and as like a very broken,
Speaker 1: insecure girl who was looking for some sort of belonging
Speaker 1: who didn't have that in high school. That was really
Speaker 1: attractive to me in a harmful way. And then I
Speaker 1: just I got caught up. I made a lot of
Speaker 1: very wrong decisions about who I surrounded myself with and
Speaker 1: the places that I got validation from, which ended up
Speaker 1: being MAGA and this influencer culture. And very shortly afterwards,
Speaker 1: you're in this environment in which they tell you don't
Speaker 1: need school you don't need college, only listen to you know, truth,
Speaker 1: social and Twitter and all of this, and you're sequestered
Speaker 1: from information. You're told not to trust your professors or
Speaker 1: these points of authority. And I dropped out and just
Speaker 1: made this my entire identity. So then it's when you leave.
Speaker 1: I often say it's not just changing your political beliefs
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, I'm not as fiscally conservative now, or
Speaker 1: I'm more socially liberal. You're blowing up your entire life
Speaker 1: because your your social community, your finances, everything is is
Speaker 1: structured in this way. So it's indistinguishable from a cult
Speaker 1: in that aspect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listening to describe it, I mean you
Speaker 2: by definition start thinking in those terms. But let me
Speaker 2: unpack this a little bit. I mean this notion of belonging.
Speaker 2: I think it's fascinating in this sense of belonging, this identity.
Speaker 2: And so you you describe a Trump rally, I mean,
Speaker 2: was it really that moment? Was it just watching that energy,
Speaker 2: the crowd, this community that inspired you or were you
Speaker 2: naturally prone? Were you, you know, what was your politics
Speaker 2: sort of leaning in that direction? Were you frustrated with
Speaker 2: the status quo? Uh? And you you know, how did
Speaker 2: how did how did sort of that? How did Trump
Speaker 2: ignite in you? Or what was it that ignited?
Speaker 1: It was more of this contrarian take. I always liked
Speaker 1: being a contrarian. And all of the heads of the
Speaker 1: philosophy department and I went for philosophy at that time,
Speaker 1: had signed a petition to ban Trump from campus. And
Speaker 1: in my head, I'm like, oh, that's antithetical to everything
Speaker 1: philosophy is about. But in retrospect, they were right, because
Speaker 1: this rhetoric was going down a very dangerous and violent path.
Speaker 1: But in my head at that time as this, you know,
Speaker 1: I hadn't quite turned eighteen yet. I went to this
Speaker 1: rally at seventeen years old, and I turned eighteen right
Speaker 1: before I started, and it was, you know, to me,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, there's all this energy and people like
Speaker 1: me and this is fun. And I didn't have any
Speaker 1: of that in high school. I didn't go to prom,
Speaker 1: I didn't do any of that. So it was this
Speaker 1: validation very quickly that I had never really experienced before.
Speaker 2: And were you I'm just curious, were your parents in
Speaker 2: political were you political necessarily or just you just had
Speaker 2: that little contrary and beat.
Speaker 1: So we moved from South Florida, which was a lot
Speaker 1: more diverse, and all my families from New York, from
Speaker 1: Queens and other areas that are more diverse. But throughout
Speaker 1: my life we also moved to very rural areas such
Speaker 1: as Alabama and Montana, and so while I wasn't necessarily
Speaker 1: getting very conservative viewpoints at home, I was surrounded by it.
Speaker 1: Like in Montana, the most unique sentence ever. My only
Speaker 1: friend there was a female Mennonite lumberjack. And so it's
Speaker 1: like it's a town of two hundred and fifty people.
Speaker 1: And so I wasn't really exposed to varying viewpoints outside
Speaker 1: of the Internet.
Speaker 2: Right, And so you're you're you have this moment they're
Speaker 2: trying to silence Trump, You're like, this is wrong. You
Speaker 2: you buy down. And by the way, and there's you know,
Speaker 2: you were quick to say maybe they were right, but
Speaker 2: maybe they weren't right. And that's a deeper conversation we
Speaker 2: can have about this notion of free speech and sort
Speaker 2: of the origin story of a little bit of what
Speaker 2: you know sort of has created this movement out of
Speaker 2: anger and frustration of quote unquote being canceled and not
Speaker 2: having necessarily those platforms that others, frankly it oftentimes take
Speaker 2: for granted. But I'm curious. You know, you talk about
Speaker 2: going feeling some identity energy. You're homeschooled. Now all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, there's a community that's trying to pull you in.
Speaker 2: Is it just pull you in on the basis of
Speaker 2: just the joy of being the contrary and the joy
Speaker 2: of expressing yourself fully and the sort of diversity of
Speaker 2: opinion was what was the thing that sort of attracted.
Speaker 1: Sort of It's also just having friends, you know, because
Speaker 1: when you're in such an isolated community, like in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, Montana, and then you're here and you're
Speaker 1: being invited as a special guest to Turning Point, and
Speaker 1: you feel like you're all of a sudden, not this
Speaker 1: you know, little small girl. You're important and people care
Speaker 1: what you have to say. That's really validating in a
Speaker 1: harmful way.
Speaker 2: And so you talk about Turning Point, I mean that
Speaker 2: was a turning point for you. I mean, was that
Speaker 2: organization you know, that was sort of the beginning of
Speaker 2: the organization right when Charlie.
Speaker 1: Was It was very early on, and it was very
Speaker 1: campus oriented and again simultaneously, part of it coincides with
Speaker 1: the content, right, because you're also posting online and there's
Speaker 1: these stories going up on Fox News of professors who
Speaker 1: say something that's a little too woke, and so you're
Speaker 1: going to school, but you're viewing it through this content
Speaker 1: brain of ooh, am I going to get one, ooh,
Speaker 1: I can't trust them, and so it really bastardizes your
Speaker 1: experience in academia because you're viewing it through this, like
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk turning point content brain that is really harmful.
Speaker 2: And when you were with Charlie, I mean, did what
Speaker 2: you know, it's interesting we started this podcast with Charlie
Speaker 2: and you know, obviously tragic what happened to him. And
Speaker 2: I'm interested in look forward to your thoughts about where
Speaker 2: the movement is today. But what aspects of that movement?
Speaker 2: What was it about Charlie in the beginning of that
Speaker 2: movement that you really may not have identified with necessarily
Speaker 2: on the substance, but just the style that there was
Speaker 2: something here that he was doing that no one else
Speaker 2: was necessarily doing. What was you know, success leaves clues
Speaker 2: and he was successful at organizing the campus is I'm
Speaker 2: curious what examples were cues did you see or clues
Speaker 2: early on of this sort of genesis of success.
Speaker 1: He articulated himself well, but also when you're capitalism brained,
Speaker 1: you view any mode of success or ambition as a
Speaker 1: moral good. So ambition and success was equated with morality
Speaker 1: in my head. So I'm like, Wow, he's so young
Speaker 1: and successful, and that could be me too. All I
Speaker 1: need to do is drop out of school and keep
Speaker 1: fighting the good fight. And so I think that's But
Speaker 1: Charlie at times was also encouraging, you know, at times
Speaker 1: when I had tough times in Republican politics, and so
Speaker 1: he had this softer side that was captivating to people
Speaker 1: who were going through a lot. And I don't think
Speaker 1: he was quite aware of the way in which his
Speaker 1: organization was and has been used by people much bigger,
Speaker 1: with a lot more money than him, to utilize it
Speaker 1: for their own agenda and mobilize this sort of rhetoric
Speaker 1: across America.
Speaker 2: So, Ashley, how old were you at the time, I
Speaker 2: mean your young twenties this time.
Speaker 1: Or twenty seven? Well now I'm twenty seven now I was.
Speaker 1: This happened right away when I was eighteen going on
Speaker 1: college campuses. I went to my first turning point event
Speaker 1: like nineteen twenty and so it was very early on.
Speaker 2: And so was this I mean, did this become a
Speaker 2: profession then for you? I mean you morphed in all
Speaker 2: of a sudden. What was the first opportunity to monetize
Speaker 2: where you realize, wait a second, I'm getting paid for this.
Speaker 1: So it was actually I had had like normal jobs
Speaker 1: working in campaigns and cleaning up bad data and volunteering.
Speaker 1: But I dated a man who was ten years my senior,
Speaker 1: and I met him at the Young Women's Leadership Conference
Speaker 1: and within a month of meeting him, he's like, moved
Speaker 1: to Tampa with me. You can just do maga influencing.
Speaker 1: He was this big influencer guy DC Dreno, and he's like,
Speaker 1: here's how you do it. Here's the sign you hold
Speaker 1: up outside of the iced attention set. This will go viral.
Speaker 1: Here's the shirts you can sell, the flags you can sell.
Speaker 1: And that's when I started learning how to monetize activism
Speaker 1: and learn that it's it's an industry.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, and you made the point earlier and you're
Speaker 2: reinforcing it now. I mean the connection between the movement
Speaker 2: and the medium, which is the media and the clips
Speaker 2: and the virality in the ability quote unquote influence substantively
Speaker 2: and breakthrough. And so that's interesting. So he sort of
Speaker 2: he designed in your mind. Yeah, and so you see
Speaker 2: you're out there and you're feeling a sense of community connection, relationships.
Speaker 1: But also fear because what that boyfriend of mine had
Speaker 1: drove into my head was there were a few times
Speaker 1: I found myself in controversy for you know, stepping out
Speaker 1: a line, for having a more reasonable take on reproductive
Speaker 1: rights or immigration, and he drove into my head he said,
Speaker 1: never cross the base. Never cross the base, and that's
Speaker 1: very much prolific throughout MAGA. You're not supposed to do that.
Speaker 1: So so while it was these good feelings, it was
Speaker 1: also very quickly a feeling of fear of stepping out
Speaker 1: of line and staying within the talking points. And you
Speaker 1: know you're going to get canceled now you've dropped out
Speaker 1: of school, you'll lose your income, you're moving to a
Speaker 1: place far, far away from home, and so so the
Speaker 1: fear aspect took took a fact very early on as well.
Speaker 2: It's interesting and I want to unpack that as well. Particularly,
Speaker 2: you know, what is the base with the basis, whatever
Speaker 2: Trump says it is because he seems to shape shift
Speaker 2: often on issues, and with it, the base seems to
Speaker 2: move along with him. I guess it's just waiting for
Speaker 2: that cue. But I'm curious, just back to your first paycheck.
Speaker 2: Do you remember where you actually, you know, someone said
Speaker 2: here's a thousand bucks or you know, how did it?
Speaker 2: How was what was the what was the formal relationship
Speaker 2: and role to someone that can write a check?
Speaker 1: The boss believe it was just an Instagram message or
Speaker 1: Twitter DM that was like I'll pay you to retweet
Speaker 1: this or post this, and then I got, you know,
Speaker 1: other ones for wearing the T shirts or the deals
Speaker 1: for hey, make your own T shirts, antisocialist social club,
Speaker 1: all of the I believe I also had one that
Speaker 1: set up May California, America. Again, there were a few
Speaker 1: of those, but it was just through dms and here's
Speaker 1: a PayPal and I'm like, oh, look at this very quickly, you.
Speaker 2: Know, because I've gotten to know some of these folks,
Speaker 2: and you know, I sort of an interesting history and
Speaker 2: relationship to a little bit of the Trump passed and
Speaker 2: which I'm unpacked modestly here on the podcast. But I'm curious.
Speaker 2: You know, how much of it for you was real
Speaker 2: versus performative? How much of it was substance versus style? Meaning?
Speaker 2: Were these true believers that you were surrounded by, or
Speaker 2: performers that were just trying to sort of, you know,
Speaker 2: own the Libs, own that governor in California and just
Speaker 2: don't you know, don't California, Maya, Montana or mon Texas.
Speaker 2: I mean, what, you know, what was it about what
Speaker 2: we're against or but what we're for? Give me a
Speaker 2: sense of you know, who were the early influences for you?
Speaker 2: Was it a sense of deep sincerity conviction?
Speaker 1: For me? It started out that way. And I think
Speaker 1: most of these people would tell you that they are
Speaker 1: true believers, but they're performed. They really are performers who
Speaker 1: have gotten so deep and their views have oscillated so
Speaker 1: much within what's acceptable within the base that they're just
Speaker 1: deeply broken and insecure people who lack any real sense
Speaker 1: of identity. What was fascinating is when you go to
Speaker 1: events or you go to the bar with these people, afterwards,
Speaker 1: they can't talk about anything else, like it's they're only
Speaker 1: talking about do you see what Joe Biden did? Did
Speaker 1: you see this like it's they're not their shells of
Speaker 1: human beings who are wearing this Maga costume and it's
Speaker 1: become their entire identity. Nobody's nobody's really talking about things,
Speaker 1: and so I do believe that they're all performers. I
Speaker 1: believe Maga has the deepest issues with identity that I've
Speaker 1: ever had the displeasure of interacting with.
Speaker 2: And again, identity on the basis of just who I
Speaker 2: mean as individuals, yes, who that yeah, sort of, and
Speaker 2: they're in the process of becoming and discovering who they are,
Speaker 2: but they put this mask on.
Speaker 1: They've never had the opportunity to become because they've been
Speaker 1: plucked and told what to be, and so they don't
Speaker 1: ever have that opportunity of becoming. And now with this
Speaker 1: age of the Internet, it's very hard to have that rebirth,
Speaker 1: to have that reinvention because you have this permanent digital
Speaker 1: footprint of you being a racist online. So it's very
Speaker 1: hard to have a rebirth after that. So they're kind
Speaker 1: of stuck in that as well.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, so is this so with your own experience
Speaker 2: and you know a little bit of with Charlie Kirk
Speaker 2: and turning point USA you're starting to you know, ex
Speaker 2: boyfriend and you know, learning how to put ship post
Speaker 2: as we say, and you know, putting on you know
Speaker 2: literally physically, you know, showing up with signs and T shirts,
Speaker 2: et cetera. Is it a loose confederation or has it
Speaker 2: evolved or devolved? Is it organized? Is it you know,
Speaker 2: is it become radically different than it was three four
Speaker 2: years ago? Trump one point zero versus Trump two point zero.
Speaker 2: Are there sort of central key figures that are organizing
Speaker 2: and sharing down a vision or is it again a
Speaker 2: bottom up but within the dear leader's frame? How would
Speaker 2: you describe the confederation or lack thereof the brand mega.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people will say, you know, they
Speaker 1: were duped by Trump and it's really evolved from what
Speaker 1: it was years ago. But what I would say to
Speaker 1: that is it it did evolve into the form that
Speaker 1: people warned us it was going to evolve into. Yes,
Speaker 1: it has changed, but it changed into what I would
Speaker 1: say now is like this final form of this or
Speaker 1: tyrianism that we were warned that it was going to
Speaker 1: evolve into. It was a natural evolution of the things
Speaker 1: that were being prepped Originally. Yeah, it was more open tent,
Speaker 1: it was a little more Okay, we don't hate trans
Speaker 1: and gay people. Okay, we we love our token block conservatives.
Speaker 1: And then it really once they gained more of a
Speaker 1: foothold of power, you saw that section off. And I
Speaker 1: do believe that was by design.
Speaker 2: In design Where I mean, is is this Trump power? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And the tech for power and that power lies where
Speaker 2: is it Trump himself? Is it Junior? Is it where?
Speaker 2: I mean? Who? You know? We can and we'll jump
Speaker 2: into some names and James more the contemporary names and
Speaker 2: the political operation. But early on, where did you see
Speaker 2: the power reside?
Speaker 1: You know, four five six years ago, four or five
Speaker 1: six years ago, the power was really with Trump. And
Speaker 1: I do believe that Trump as a figure was co
Speaker 1: opted by the Stephen Millers of the world and the
Speaker 1: people who are really financially invested and ideologically invested in
Speaker 1: their own vision for America. And now we're seeing it
Speaker 1: being co opted further by the tech oligarchs and all
Speaker 1: of this. That it's the power is really consolidating among this.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have Jeff Bezos who won't say a
Speaker 1: bad thing about Trump now, so they're really aligning with
Speaker 1: where they see this power Trump was years ago just
Speaker 1: a figure that they realized we can co opt this
Speaker 1: guy for our own agenda.
Speaker 2: And early on who are who are those early figures
Speaker 2: and what were what was What was the agenda when
Speaker 2: you first started. I mean, obviously you talk about I mean,
Speaker 2: there's issues of reproductive rights, you talk about some those
Speaker 2: I think there's these are contrarian issues and just you know,
Speaker 2: anti obviously the elites and you know, all those the
Speaker 2: Biden and Harris and Obama types myself imagine California included.
Speaker 2: But what I mean, what was the uniting construct in
Speaker 2: the beginning of your experience with Maga.
Speaker 1: The uniting construct was mostly these magaisms of free speech
Speaker 1: and holding the elites accountable, But there was also, particularly
Speaker 1: within the right wing online sphere, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of gendered issues. It was very anti feminism. It was
Speaker 1: the birthplace in the foundations of the Andrew Tates of
Speaker 1: the world. And what we're seeing now that has really
Speaker 1: evolved very anti feminism, very anti me too, like why
Speaker 1: are you just hating on the white guy type of stuff,
Speaker 1: and they would utilize people like me, And I remember
Speaker 1: there was a very large MAGA figure when I first
Speaker 1: started blowing up online who came to me and said
Speaker 1: you should speak on this issue. I think it was
Speaker 1: a lead of Battle Angel or whatever. They were mad
Speaker 1: that bre Larsen had said something against white men, straight
Speaker 1: white men, and so very early on I was co
Speaker 1: opted to speak on these issues regarding men because it
Speaker 1: was better for it to come from a woman like me,
Speaker 1: and so that was very pertinent early on was.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting you say co opted, meaning at the
Speaker 2: time you didn't feel co opted though, right, No.
Speaker 1: I thought they were coming to me because I was
Speaker 1: so such a special snowflake, and so it was smart
Speaker 1: and I was like, I've been chosen, and you know,
Speaker 1: I called the pygmisms like I just so wanted to
Speaker 1: be picked and heard, and so in that moment you
Speaker 1: don't feel but in retrospect, I'm like, wow, I was
Speaker 1: I was used by these people for something really, really
Speaker 1: harmful that I'm scared we're not going to be able
Speaker 1: to undo.
Speaker 2: Did you what was it? Do you remember the post
Speaker 2: that really where you felt like you're now deep inside this,
Speaker 2: like now you're actually even surprised you how viral a
Speaker 2: statement was or an issue was something that for you
Speaker 2: became more indelible and a consciousness of how powerful this
Speaker 2: movement is and how powerful even your voice would become.
Speaker 1: So for a while, I was like mostly a ship poster.
Speaker 1: I would pretend to be serious at times, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't really until I was with Elon that I would
Speaker 1: see some of these effects of my words or effects
Speaker 1: of Elon himself, that I'm like, this is actually really consequential.
Speaker 1: And it sounds not even stupid to say, oh, you
Speaker 1: didn't realize till then that your actions had so many consequences.
Speaker 1: And that's something that I've really had to unpack and
Speaker 1: unpack the harm that I did for nearly a decade
Speaker 1: in this movement, saying things in the communities that I
Speaker 1: hurt women, minorities, the trans community. I just didn't even consider.
Speaker 1: I was completely unempathetic to how my words and actions
Speaker 1: impacted other people. And I've had to do a lot
Speaker 1: of work making amends for that and really saying, hey,
Speaker 1: here's where I went wrong, here's where I was lacking,
Speaker 1: and trying to understand why I made those decisions.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting in it, and I don't want to
Speaker 2: over index our time on Elon, but as someone that
Speaker 2: knew Elon, you know, back in the day, and seeing
Speaker 2: him radically change from the person I remember back in
Speaker 2: early two thousands, particularly politically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say he probably didn't change. People just
Speaker 1: weren't listening to the stories, particularly of women that he
Speaker 1: was involved with, because when you do read the words
Speaker 1: that his first wife, Justine wrote, it was always there.
Speaker 1: We just ignored it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, well I appreciate that. But he came into
Speaker 2: the movement it seems a little later, obviously. I mean,
Speaker 2: he wasn't necessarily part of Team Trump and MAGA as
Speaker 2: it's described, despite some of those political leanings as you suggest,
Speaker 2: and those values what you know, you describe what a DM.
Speaker 2: That's how he reached out to you, just because he
Speaker 2: was impressed with some of the stuff you were posting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was at the Babylon b which he had
Speaker 1: in affinity for at that time, and he ended up
Speaker 1: dming me and then we met at Twitter headquarters what
Speaker 1: have you. But even in his private conversations with me,
Speaker 1: that's another instance of co opting. I really do believe
Speaker 1: that he finds these populist movements, whether in the United
Speaker 1: States or the UK or Germany, and he realizes that
Speaker 1: They're very easy to co opt and manipulate for his
Speaker 1: own agenda of basically digitizing these governments and getting an
Speaker 1: insurmountable amount of data. And you know, that's one conversation
Speaker 1: I did want to have with you and just ask
Speaker 1: you because California was kind of at the forefront of
Speaker 1: this and allowed for a lot of these Silicon Valley
Speaker 1: and these tech companies to fester under California. And I
Speaker 1: guess the question I have for you is, like, Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley didn't just build software, It's built something that are
Speaker 1: the civilizational scale experiment that is unreasonably safe. And so why,
Speaker 1: at least in California was innovation considered like this sufficient
Speaker 1: excuse and capitalism considered this sufficient excuse and justification to
Speaker 1: expose the public to such risk. And the most important
Speaker 1: question I have for you is did California become so
Speaker 1: economically dependent on Silicon Valley that it lost the ability
Speaker 1: to act as an independent watchdog for these organizations? And
Speaker 1: why was so much of this allowed to be built?
Speaker 1: And are there any regrets that you have?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, Look, I think it's a fair question, but
Speaker 2: I think it lacks any context. California is the dominant
Speaker 2: leader in privacy, dominant leader in regulation large leguage relates
Speaker 2: to AI, we led the nation the first safety measures
Speaker 2: for a large language models, frontier models. We created a
Speaker 2: Privacy Council six seven years ago, statewide council that focused
Speaker 2: on data privacy, first first state to advance. In fact,
Speaker 2: Connecticut just backed into a similar framework that California laid
Speaker 2: out as relates to the Delete Act, which California did
Speaker 2: as relates to our own data and having control over it.
Speaker 2: We led the nation as it relates to child protections,
Speaker 2: but we were sued by these same companies. We're in
Speaker 2: litigation and half dozen lawsuits, but we've led the nation
Speaker 2: in every one of these categories.
Speaker 1: Good you guys have and you've done great work in
Speaker 1: terms of passing laws that help victims seek justice after
Speaker 1: the harm occurs. But I guess what gets me is
Speaker 1: there was also a lot of conditions that were able
Speaker 1: to be created before the harm was done. And how
Speaker 1: do we intervene before the harm is done? Instead of
Speaker 1: placing this burden on victims now to prove the harm
Speaker 1: after these products are deployed, instead of telling these companies
Speaker 1: to stop and placing a really hard stop on these
Speaker 1: technology companies before they prove safety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Seeing that in the EU too. You know, I have
Speaker 1: these conversations internationally about the harm and it's like, why
Speaker 1: don't we just turn the spigot off? Like is it
Speaker 1: because they're so powerful? Is it because they have so
Speaker 1: much force behind them? Like? Why can't we turn the
Speaker 1: spigot off until they prove that it's reasonably safe, just
Speaker 1: like any other company, Like if a pharmaceutical company has
Speaker 1: a drug, we make sure it's safe first.
Speaker 2: There's no there's no question that the collective we and
Speaker 2: this well before I was even governor. As it relates
Speaker 2: to social media in its arms, we failed on that.
Speaker 2: I had Tristan harris On and others that have been
Speaker 2: real leaders in this calling this out. We've talked a
Speaker 2: lot about it extensively, not only on this platform but
Speaker 2: substantively in terms of our legislative efforts in the state
Speaker 2: to not make the same mistakes with AI. And so
Speaker 2: what you just described are the lessons that we've learned
Speaker 2: as it relates to adopting safety measures and transparency measures
Speaker 2: as it relates to AI. In what's happening in terms
Speaker 2: of how all this is going to be supercharged as
Speaker 2: it relates to deep fakes, as it relates to privacy,
Speaker 2: as it relates to child protection. You're talking to. Governor
Speaker 2: has more receipts than any other governor in the United
Speaker 2: States of America. We've done more than anyone else. Is
Speaker 2: it good enough? No, That's why this year we're going
Speaker 2: to ban social media for everyone under sixteen. Will be
Speaker 2: the first large scale a jurisdiction to do that again
Speaker 2: in the home state of this and we imagine that's
Speaker 2: going to happen all across the United States because California moves,
Speaker 2: we tend to see movement all across the country. So
Speaker 2: not perfect, but no one, but best in class.
Speaker 1: Biorelatively, California is one of the only states doing it.
Speaker 1: And California is in such a weird position because while
Speaker 1: they're one of the only states doing this legislation, there's
Speaker 1: also been so much festering within California that it's been
Speaker 1: built here, and so what is the answer to that.
Speaker 2: It's interesting just you know, back to Elon, I mean,
Speaker 2: we've been battling battling on these issues around deep fakes,
Speaker 2: around election you know, just the integrity of our elections,
Speaker 2: and you know, you can look at his you know,
Speaker 2: just the sewage of tweets that he's put out condemning our,
Speaker 2: our leadership, and that including by the way, where you
Speaker 2: and I are aligned as it relates to what happened
Speaker 2: to you and the litigation. And I appreciate your in
Speaker 2: litigation against x Ai, but but you may have seen
Speaker 2: what was happening to you and others. California led and
Speaker 2: I directed our ag our attorney general to go after
Speaker 2: groc and they actually stood down. I think it was
Speaker 2: a combination of your lawsuit UH and our investigation UH.
Speaker 2: And I think it was within a few hours after
Speaker 2: we posted that we're doing the investigation, and after a
Speaker 2: few days of what you did that, Elon finally acted
Speaker 2: like you know that. So now look, I think you're right,
Speaker 2: but but I also think mean in terms of just
Speaker 2: the larger meta frame. But but California as a specific
Speaker 2: example has a lot of credibility at least in trying
Speaker 2: to balance those things as it relates to the influence. Uh,
Speaker 2: the influence is usually on the back end. Ashley. It's
Speaker 2: interesting we're passing these laws, I'm signing these laws, but
Speaker 2: they're litigating and what they're using is the courts now
Speaker 2: to slow down the progress. And it's interesting where they
Speaker 2: don't have the throw with the legislature or maybe the governor.
Speaker 2: We'll see what happens to the next governor. Uh, they're
Speaker 2: counting on the slow system of adjudication with a third
Speaker 2: branch and yeah, and time is uh, that's you know,
Speaker 2: that's their ally.
Speaker 1: Yes, especially through I mean they're the way in which
Speaker 1: they've co opted the judicial system to just tie all
Speaker 1: of this up. How do we fix that? I guess
Speaker 1: you're a better person, Well, how do we fix that?
Speaker 2: How do we get win?
Speaker 1: Stop that?
Speaker 2: You've got to be ruthless and winning. You can't be
Speaker 2: winning arguments. You got to win power. You got to
Speaker 2: get power back. You got to take back the United
Speaker 2: States Senate, not just the House of Representatives, so you
Speaker 2: have oversight in these federal appointees. We've got to take
Speaker 2: back state houses so that we have governors that are
Speaker 2: appointing judges at the state level, particularly in states like California,
Speaker 2: that I have outsized role in regulation that reflect the
Speaker 2: broader values that I think you and I share in
Speaker 2: this respect.
Speaker 1: So I love that approach too, especially you know if
Speaker 1: we take it back to the beginning of the conversation too,
Speaker 1: with the philosophy professors signing that petition to ban Trump right,
Speaker 1: and whether or not that's that's too hard. I think
Speaker 1: right now we're at a point where we can't ask
Speaker 1: if it's if it's too much, or if we need
Speaker 1: to be centrist or moderate, because they're not, as you're aware,
Speaker 1: they're fighting very hard and very dirty, to a point
Speaker 1: that I don't know that we're going to be able
Speaker 1: to take that back. And so I hope that nobody
Speaker 1: gets stuck within this point of like oscillating between playcating
Speaker 1: both sides and just sticking to the gutting instinct of
Speaker 1: what is right? Is this wrong? And if it is,
Speaker 1: we need to fight back with every force that we
Speaker 1: have instead of placating people who have who have been
Speaker 1: a part of a lot of harm.
Speaker 2: I tend to agree with you, and we manifested, quite
Speaker 2: literally a frame that I think is appropriate to reference Prop.
Speaker 2: Fifty fighting fire with fire. We did redistricting, you know,
Speaker 2: and I agree with you our way back into powers
Speaker 2: through the fight, not necessarily through the center. But that said,
Speaker 2: you know, I also think and the reason I started
Speaker 2: this podcast with guys like Bannon and Kirk and people
Speaker 2: I deeply disagree with, and you know, having people on
Speaker 2: there that have been attacking me and doing everything to
Speaker 2: take me down, not professionally but personally. But I you know,
Speaker 2: I still believe divorce is not an option. That's the
Speaker 2: framework of this podcast. That we have to live together
Speaker 2: and advance together across our differences. And you know that's
Speaker 2: you know, back to sort of my comment. It's about
Speaker 2: you know, Trump, but you know I'll still talk to
Speaker 2: him open hand, not a closed fist. At the same time,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll do Prop fifty of you know, we've
Speaker 2: had sixty three or four lawsuits against Trump. We're going
Speaker 2: to go hard back in terms of love that of
Speaker 2: you know, pushing back against you know, all this bes.
Speaker 1: Though I would disagree. I think divorce is an option
Speaker 1: when your spouse wants to kill you. I think that's
Speaker 1: what That's absolutely not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, and I just so that's why
Speaker 2: I want to unpack with you a little bit more,
Speaker 2: because I just you know, everyone wants to be loved,
Speaker 2: Everyone needs to be loved. We all want to be
Speaker 2: you know, the old frame protected, connected, respected, and we
Speaker 2: want to be respect No one wants to be talked
Speaker 2: down to a past too. We want to be part
Speaker 2: of something bigger than ourselves. And and so you know this,
Speaker 2: I think all that matters, that sense of belonging, and
Speaker 2: I get that at a Trump rally, people feel connected
Speaker 2: to something bigger than themselves. You talk in terms of
Speaker 2: relationships and friends. You know that relationship you know with
Speaker 2: Elon led to a beautiful child. It's and that's life
Speaker 2: and we all live it. And I don't want to
Speaker 2: go that we breathe the same air. Nonsense, except we do,
Speaker 2: and so well, some.
Speaker 1: People breathe air that is polluted by data centers, you know,
Speaker 1: So we don't breed the same air. Actually, some people's
Speaker 1: air is being polluted by Mega corporation.
Speaker 2: I get it, and we got to call that out.
Speaker 2: You're talking to the fiercest environmentalists in the country right here.
Speaker 2: Despite the fact that I believe in a transition that works,
Speaker 2: we're getting That's another subject, about the fact that I
Speaker 2: drove here today and so yes, I went to the
Speaker 2: gas station. Forgive me. So I'm hardly a purist, and sometimes.
Speaker 1: I probably feel a little more cynical than some about
Speaker 1: MAGA but it's because I saw them when they were alone.
Speaker 1: I saw them when they were drunk. I saw the
Speaker 1: things that they did and they said. And I don't
Speaker 1: think a lot of these people, particularly in power, are
Speaker 1: interested in some unif fight front. I don't. And we
Speaker 1: have to consider if you're letting the barbarians into the.
Speaker 2: Gate and let me into the gate. I had zero followers.
Speaker 2: Actually you can appreciate this as an influencer. I had
Speaker 2: zero when I when Charlie platformed me, when Ben platformed me,
Speaker 2: when all of these guys, you know, Ben and others. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not platforming anyone. They already have huge platforms. I
Speaker 2: just you know, I can't just turning our back doesn't
Speaker 2: mean they turn off. And I think, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to understand what motivates people, trying to understand, you know,
Speaker 2: the why, what's the burning why allows us to be
Speaker 2: able to position ourselves and you know, and and fight
Speaker 2: back in a different way with a deeper sense of understanding.
Speaker 2: You got to know your enemy, as they say, but
Speaker 2: you also have to understand, you know, I come from
Speaker 2: the prison, not everyone's an enemy that underneath all of it.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just I find I'm a little
Speaker 2: bit more hopeful, and I appreciate you're a little more
Speaker 2: I'm optimistic.
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic that we can fight back, but I realize
Speaker 1: that the optimism has to be based on a really
Speaker 1: difficult fight where a lot of people are going to
Speaker 1: have to make material sacrifices. You know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to hear about how much money someone made anymore. I
Speaker 1: want to know about the money they turned down. I
Speaker 1: want to know what they've sacrificed, and not enough people
Speaker 1: talk about that. I want to hear what people regret,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to know what you regret as
Speaker 1: governor things that you could have done differently, or because
Speaker 1: as we're building the system that aggregates humanity, I think
Speaker 1: it's just as important that we speak about the regrets
Speaker 1: so that whatever they're building knows what to avoid. And
Speaker 1: if nobody's nobody's being honest about that, that's going to
Speaker 1: be incredibly difficult to overcome.
Speaker 2: I I agree with you on that, and we can
Speaker 2: we can go back to my one thousand page COVID
Speaker 2: report and we can do that list.
Speaker 1: And he's got all his way on a list.
Speaker 2: I love how much you know you're with no well,
Speaker 2: that's why we put so I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 2: You got to own up. You got to and as
Speaker 2: the hell, I wrote a whole book on on that
Speaker 2: and you and but that's what you're doing right now.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate that you're just being honest and transparent
Speaker 2: and you know, and and you're not dream of regretting.
Speaker 2: I mean the fact that you're willing to confront you know.
Speaker 2: You know, it's well known that you, you know, wrote
Speaker 2: a children's book that you regret writing, and the sort
Speaker 2: of anti trans children book, and and and but also
Speaker 2: the things you posted, and so I want to talk
Speaker 2: to just a little bit more about that because you
Speaker 2: know right now, you know, I'm here, you know, stone
Speaker 2: throw away where I first learned about this person, Laura Lumer.
Speaker 2: She was dressed up in a costume. She jumped over
Speaker 2: the fence here at the Governor's mansion and she, you know,
Speaker 2: she broke, you know, sort of that barrier of privacy.
Speaker 2: And she did it online and you know, got a
Speaker 2: bunch of followers, and she's a I'm no fan of hers.
Speaker 2: I don't know over adeeming quality. I thought she was.
Speaker 2: I was a little embarrassed for I thought she needed
Speaker 2: a little help, but that was the beginning and then
Speaker 2: she blew up. Now she's a damn in as seems
Speaker 2: like real influence with Trump, and I'm trying to sort
Speaker 2: of unpacked. I mean, that's to me madness that she
Speaker 2: somehow has the ear of the president. But you know,
Speaker 2: you have all these folks in this sort of right
Speaker 2: wing influence spare. You got the ones like Laura that
Speaker 2: people seem to know about, Candice Owens that people seem
Speaker 2: to know about. Obviously, Tucker Carlson people know about. But
Speaker 2: you have also these other characters. This Jack I can't
Speaker 2: even remember his name, you know, Pasobic. I mean, these
Speaker 2: are the guys and this Mike guy shure Up, whatever
Speaker 2: the hell his name is. Yeah, these guys, I mean,
Speaker 2: these are the Pizzagate guys. I mean literally, these are
Speaker 2: the people that were talking about sexual predators and they
Speaker 2: were They did nothing when you were being unmasked on
Speaker 2: Grock the.
Speaker 1: Same they did not, especially these people who claim to
Speaker 1: care about women and children. And the only time they
Speaker 1: claim that is when they're targeting the trans community. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and a section of the population that's less than one
Speaker 1: percent of the population. And what I can say, especially
Speaker 1: as the Democrats try to navigate and they say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe we went too far on the trans issue. No,
Speaker 1: you didn't, because these people are targeting less than one
Speaker 1: percent of the population, and that's really cruel and evil.
Speaker 1: And if we ignore that cruelty that they've done to
Speaker 1: this very marginalized group of people, it's going to be
Speaker 1: done to you. But what I can say about these
Speaker 1: influencers is we fixate on the caricatures and not the
Speaker 1: system in the architecture that has allowed them to prosper.
Speaker 1: And that is Twitter, that is X and it is
Speaker 1: being manipulated in a way that I believe is really
Speaker 1: dangerous to the future of our democracy and elections. That
Speaker 1: we don't have transparency into how this data is being
Speaker 1: analyzed for elections, which people are being boosted in this algorithm,
Speaker 1: which people are You know that these characters are able
Speaker 1: to amass millions of followers despite being previously banned everywhere,
Speaker 1: and that is what needs to be fixated on. And
Speaker 1: so often the caricature of these people on the right
Speaker 1: get the headlines as opposed to governing the infrastructure that's
Speaker 1: allowing this, and that is really important.
Speaker 2: I love what you're saying, and I don't I don't
Speaker 2: want to lose this thread, but I do want to
Speaker 2: sort of illuminate that their component parts. These guys are
Speaker 2: knitting these things together. This guy Jack and Mike and
Speaker 2: these others that people don't know about it, and these
Speaker 2: are so these are the influencers that are dialing up
Speaker 2: the rage, dialing up the anger. They were dialing you up, right,
Speaker 2: they were sort of building your platform and they're still
Speaker 2: at it, right. I mean, these guys are you know,
Speaker 2: they're part of you know, these guys you've described, and
Speaker 2: I'd love to you illuminate further. These are folks on
Speaker 2: group chats consistently trying to help weaponize grievance. They've got
Speaker 2: the president's right hand person, potentially James Blair, the political operation.
Speaker 1: No, potentially James Blair is in these group chats. Members
Speaker 1: of the administration are in these group chats. They operate
Speaker 1: through group chats and have for many years, in which
Speaker 1: they coordinate these messaging campaigns on what they're going to
Speaker 1: respond to, how they're going to respond to it or
Speaker 1: not respond to it. It is incredibly coordinated and sophisticated
Speaker 1: in the way in which they coordinate this via group chats,
Speaker 1: via signal, via calls with the administration and members of
Speaker 1: the campaign. So it is and again this primarily festers
Speaker 1: on Twitter.
Speaker 2: And back to that then, so the idea that Elon
Speaker 2: has Twitter, idea that Elon ran one of the largest
Speaker 2: super PACs in US history America Pack, idea that he
Speaker 2: invested hundreds of millions of dollars that we know of directly,
Speaker 2: that he ran their field campaign a big part of it,
Speaker 2: and that data collection, the fact that we do have
Speaker 2: someone as powerful as him was about to be exponentially
Speaker 2: more powerful when this IPO Starlink, which you know, I
Speaker 2: call a Starlink IPO more than a SpaceX IPO. That's
Speaker 2: the one profitable side of it at least, you know,
Speaker 2: And it's amazing that Rocket company you want to ask
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that, butrox part But.
Speaker 1: Even that, why do we acknowledge it? Why is it?
Speaker 1: You know? I used to think the same way. I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's it's beautiful to go to the moon, to Mars
Speaker 1: and expand consciousness and you get involved in this Elon Moscovital.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's like, why don't we
Speaker 1: leave the moon alone? Why do we need the moon,
Speaker 1: you know, Like why do we have to bastardize something
Speaker 1: so beautiful that everyone can look up and see something
Speaker 1: so pure? You know? My older son, he says, Mama,
Speaker 1: if you're ever not with me, just look at the
Speaker 1: moon and I'll be there.
Speaker 2: Philosophy coming.
Speaker 1: It's so pure and something that every human can look
Speaker 1: at and see something so pure. And it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to look at the moon and think of
Speaker 1: American colonialism. I don't.
Speaker 2: Well, he was supposed to be skipping it to Mars,
Speaker 2: but it seems that I don't want to look at Mars.
Speaker 1: You think of that either. I don't want American colonialism
Speaker 1: on Mars. And it's like why if we just accepted that, yes,
Speaker 1: let's let's expand, Like do we deserve to expand we
Speaker 1: haven't even taken care of what we have now? Like
Speaker 1: why do we deserve? Do we have the credit score
Speaker 1: for the moon?
Speaker 2: Do I know? I'm in California? Go west, young man,
Speaker 2: Go west. This notion of the frontier, that's you know,
Speaker 2: that's part of the rugged individualism the history of our country,
Speaker 2: and I think a big part of who we are
Speaker 2: as a species.
Speaker 1: Maybe we can go to Mars speakers and then leave
Speaker 1: Earth alone. So that's all of the life here is untouched.
Speaker 1: You know, there's not other life on the other planets,
Speaker 1: So maybe we just put our diabolical species there are
Speaker 1: and it'll be okay, and then we leave Earth alone.
Speaker 1: But you know it's it's some.
Speaker 2: But the power of these algorithms, the power that Elon
Speaker 2: himself has to dialing uprage, to determining what we see,
Speaker 2: what we hear, how we think, who we vote for.
Speaker 2: That seems disproportionate the power of James Blair to connect
Speaker 2: and coordinate with all these influencers, to have the daily messages.
Speaker 2: You see it weaponized on Fox, the primetime line up there,
Speaker 2: which is Pravda. You see it on the right all
Speaker 2: all cross the right wing spear. I watched a New
Speaker 2: York Post, the California Post, the Daily all this stuff,
Speaker 2: this stuff and just the connective tissue, and you were
Speaker 2: part of all that. I mean, we're not overstating this.
Speaker 1: No, No, I wasn't part of that. I saw it,
Speaker 1: and you're not being hyperbolic, and I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think there's an underdiscussed aspect of this as well. Yes,
Speaker 1: they have the power to influence what you think who
Speaker 1: you think about. But they also have the data on
Speaker 1: what's going to be the most useful and the best
Speaker 1: way to exploit that. If Cambridge Analytica was bad, this
Speaker 1: is Cambridge Analytica on meth amphetamines and steroids at this point.
Speaker 1: And so it's the how they know exactly how you think.
Speaker 1: They're creating this behavioral inference model, that they know exactly
Speaker 1: which part of you to exploit, which vulnerability. It is
Speaker 1: like being in an abusive relationship where they know exactly
Speaker 1: where you're vulnerable and how to exploit that vulnerability to
Speaker 1: make you act in a certain way.
Speaker 2: So what I mean is there any Do you see
Speaker 2: anything on the left that's comparable or you don't want
Speaker 2: to see anything on the left that's comparable, but.
Speaker 1: Do you No, I don't want to see anything comparable.
Speaker 1: And that's what really terrifies me is when I speak
Speaker 1: about these things, I see people on the left and
Speaker 1: the democratic side saying we need this, and no, you don't.
Speaker 1: It's ontologically evil to have such unfettered capitalism and the
Speaker 1: effects of citizens United so prolific that we don't have
Speaker 1: these disclosure laws. No, the left needs to be going
Speaker 1: hard and making sure that you cannot post anything, you
Speaker 1: cannot be paid to post anything, whether it's an opinion,
Speaker 1: an idea, a philosophy that you like. We're so without
Speaker 1: disclosing that, and that's what needs to change, rather than
Speaker 1: building this evil apparatus for yourselves. I think that's if
Speaker 1: I think it's bad on the right, it's also bad
Speaker 1: on the left. But you can stop them from doing
Speaker 1: it with laws and regulations.
Speaker 2: Actually, let me ask you about that, because it's interesting.
Speaker 2: We have a governor's race and literally determine the primary
Speaker 2: today are as we're taping this, and there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of reporting about influencers have gotten hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars. No one was aware of it.
Speaker 2: There was no nothing transparent about it. So that's just
Speaker 2: a space that's the wild West, isn't it? For candidates
Speaker 2: and causes where influencers are paid and we think it's
Speaker 2: their voice, but there's no political even in a political sense,
Speaker 2: there's no rules necessarily for transparency.
Speaker 1: Yes, because the mechanism, as I'm sure you know, is
Speaker 1: the consulting houses. The consulting houses, they are advantaged by
Speaker 1: a degree of privacy that they shouldn't have. I think
Speaker 1: if you were a consulting house who's on these FEC reports,
Speaker 1: you should have to disclose everything in your books as well.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't disappear once it hits a consulting house. That's so easy.
Speaker 1: I can start an LLC tomorrow. You pay me a
Speaker 1: million dollars for your campaign, and I disperse it to
Speaker 1: my secret influencers and nobody will ever know. That should
Speaker 1: not be allowed to occur.
Speaker 2: I think this, I could agree with you more of
Speaker 2: this in an area that we're going to have to significantly,
Speaker 2: I mean aggressively and quickly tighten up. So what you
Speaker 2: mentioned the other day, and you know, I got a
Speaker 2: lot of attention. You posted something about ten thousand late.
Speaker 2: I mean, what, what, what? What the hell did you
Speaker 2: post ten thousand layers? I did the implication the election
Speaker 2: was stolen, all the conspiracy theories, and I knew it.
Speaker 2: I had my friends. I told you, so I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh God, what's going on here?
Speaker 1: I think people people really need to And I want
Speaker 1: to preface this by saying people should vote, and they
Speaker 1: should vote loudly. There is something to say about the
Speaker 1: right saying you know, too big to rig everyone should
Speaker 1: turn out, and I don't want to discourage vote or
Speaker 1: turnout when I talk about this experience. But shortly before
Speaker 1: the election in October, Elon had texted me and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm feeling more optimistic about the election, and
Speaker 1: tomorrow I'm going to release my anomaly in the matrix.
Speaker 1: I have lasers in space. And then he quantifies it.
Speaker 1: He says, I have over ten thousand lasers in space,
Speaker 1: which is nearly identical to the number of satellites he has.
Speaker 1: And I told him, I said, I'd ask more, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to be deposed, and he said wise.
Speaker 1: But something else I had said, I said, you know,
Speaker 1: if this ends up being your lasers in space end
Speaker 1: up being the reason that Trump wins, this would be
Speaker 1: like a sci fi drama. And you know, he replied
Speaker 1: and agreed with that. So those are important aspects. What
Speaker 1: that means, I'm not entirely sure. I also have other
Speaker 1: information that you know, I came across during my time
Speaker 1: with him and speaking to his engineers that is incredibly uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: But this again goes back to the governing architecture. Does
Speaker 1: anybody know is there any regulations or laws in it?
Speaker 1: Right now saying you cannot use your data from your
Speaker 1: satellites for elections or for a proprietary data. Is all
Speaker 1: of this being hid under proprietary data in intellectual property
Speaker 1: that is not okay? And right now we don't have
Speaker 1: the infrastructure. There's not infrastructure or laws against using data
Speaker 1: from your space company, whose ever space company it is,
Speaker 1: for whatever purpose you want. If it's private, We've had
Speaker 1: so much hidden under private capital and that needs to
Speaker 1: be addressed.
Speaker 2: Why did actually, why do you feel the need to
Speaker 2: share that and why now?
Speaker 1: Because I'm speaking about my entire experience as honestly and
Speaker 1: openly as I can, including moments that made me really
Speaker 1: raise an eyebrow and say, this is concerning As someone
Speaker 1: who you know throughout my time in this relationship with Elon,
Speaker 1: he had also sent me data of real time Delta
Speaker 1: vote metrics in October from Pennsylvania and information from his
Speaker 1: pack And as someone who was cleaning bad door knocking
Speaker 1: data from Whatt's canvassing since I was eighteen, I looked
Speaker 1: at that and said, there's no apparatus that I know
Speaker 1: of that can create that data. So your what are
Speaker 1: your inputs? What inputs are you using? And that's the
Speaker 1: question that other people need to ask. And when people
Speaker 1: ask them, and hopefully governing bodies who come to me
Speaker 1: for this information, I can tell them what I know
Speaker 1: and what I think, and the individuals who I spoke
Speaker 1: to as well. But what inputs create that level of
Speaker 1: certainty that nobody else had previously about when the election
Speaker 1: results were in. Those are the questions that need to
Speaker 1: be asked.
Speaker 2: And when you start to I mean, you've expressed literal concern,
Speaker 2: But for sharing this information publicly you even suggested, didn't suggest,
Speaker 2: I think you stated, and maybe you can clarify that
Speaker 2: there was an opportunity effort to say, hey, you don't
Speaker 2: need to share this. Actually it will take care of you.
Speaker 2: I'll take care of you, right, A big, big damn check.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was offered forty million dollars with which included
Speaker 1: an NDA and non discouragement into eternity, which I declined.
Speaker 1: Part of this information is why because I do believe
Speaker 1: him and his companies and everything that's being built to
Speaker 1: be incredibly consequential for the future of our country, the
Speaker 1: future of the country that my children will have to
Speaker 1: live in, the digital landscape that they'll have to live
Speaker 1: in and I think there's a lot worse than being,
Speaker 1: you know, middle class in America, and that's okay. I'm
Speaker 1: comfortable with that to keep my integrity and at least
Speaker 1: when push came to shove that I was able to
Speaker 1: turn that down. And I also think women need to
Speaker 1: speak up. I think a lot would not be allowed
Speaker 1: to happen if women stopped keeping a lot of secrets
Speaker 1: for men.
Speaker 2: And is that because you're uniquely positioned, because you have
Speaker 2: a voice, because you have enough resourcefulness, if not the resources.
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you say to those other women?
Speaker 2: I mean, what about all these folks that are sort
Speaker 2: of trapped in this mindset?
Speaker 1: I think particularly the women of privilege, like I have
Speaker 1: a level of privilege having some sort of platform, and
Speaker 1: even if there's material hardship, I do have access to
Speaker 1: resources and educated individuals and people who are well networked
Speaker 1: that I can utilize. And there are many women within
Speaker 1: those Maro Lago in the magaspheres that have that same
Speaker 1: access who can do something. And I'm very concerned about
Speaker 1: the proliferation of this privatized legal system through NDAs. I
Speaker 1: don't think with most NDAs that there is any meaningful
Speaker 1: consent when people are signing them to pay their bills,
Speaker 1: feed their family or whatever. So I do think that's
Speaker 1: another aspect that needs to be addressed because it's how
Speaker 1: so much evil has been allowed to occur. And if
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be building a system to aggregate humanity
Speaker 1: and the honest version of it, but the honesty about
Speaker 1: the most powerful people cannot be said because of NDAs
Speaker 1: and this proliferation of this industry of silence, then we
Speaker 1: have a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, by the way, I couldn't agree with
Speaker 2: you more So, look, Ashley, as we you know, as
Speaker 2: you move forward, as we move forward, as we move
Speaker 2: into midterm elections, not making everything electoral, as we move
Speaker 2: continue to move forward with this letter. Rip attitude of
Speaker 2: the of the Trump administration as it relates to AI
Speaker 2: regulation or lack thereof, sort of the David sassification of
Speaker 2: regulatory policy, and you know, highlighted by the fact that
Speaker 2: Elon and a few others Zuckerberg made calls to Trump
Speaker 2: to stop them from even a modest executive order to
Speaker 2: begin to do something. By the way, all they're trying
Speaker 2: to do is preempt California and our leadership on this.
Speaker 2: They've tried to neutralize California. We saw Governor Hokeel and
Speaker 2: now Pritzker back into aspects of what California did to
Speaker 2: lead on some of the safety issues on AI's still
Speaker 2: not enough. I get it, and we have more work
Speaker 2: to do, but the contrast with Trump is pretty illuminating.
Speaker 2: How worried are you about fair and free elections? How
Speaker 2: worried about you you know your son's father is going
Speaker 2: to be likely the first trillionaire in a matter of week,
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks. How concerned are you about capture
Speaker 2: and these algorithms and just a handful of people deciding
Speaker 2: our fate and future in terms of what we read,
Speaker 2: see here and believe.
Speaker 1: I think people should be incredibly concerned about the elections
Speaker 1: just because of the new landscape we're creating. I often
Speaker 1: describe the Internet as we built this new planet. We're
Speaker 1: demanding that people inhabit it and live on it, and
Speaker 1: we have no idea if there's enough oxygen for people here,
Speaker 1: and so we really need to be critical of this
Speaker 1: digital landscape and terrain that we've built and how that
Speaker 1: impacts our elections, from data to manipulation to perception. This
Speaker 1: is very important do I think that maybe there's lasers
Speaker 1: beaming down from space to change the vote on the
Speaker 1: dominion miss machines? Probably not. But do I believe that
Speaker 1: very powerful technology from very powerful individuals is being exploited
Speaker 1: to create outcomes that they want. Yes, That's happened throughout
Speaker 1: all of human history, and to say that that's not
Speaker 1: happening would be incredibly ignorant to these levers of capitalism.
Speaker 1: And one thing I want people to know is that
Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley bros. Would be very proficient in plantation accounting.
Speaker 1: And these are systems that we've seen before, just at
Speaker 1: a much larger scale.
Speaker 2: So do you and forgive me, I'm just sort of
Speaker 2: belaboring this and diving deeper. How embedded from your perspective
Speaker 2: are the operations on the inside MAGA and those operations
Speaker 2: with some of these elite tech titans in the context
Speaker 2: of being even more deliberative in terms of of hardwiring.
Speaker 1: They are intimately intertwined. This is why big tech was
Speaker 1: at the forefront of all of these issues within MAGA,
Speaker 1: especially in twenty twenty, and then Mark Zuckerberg changes course
Speaker 1: and just look at who was front and center at
Speaker 1: the inauguration you had showing up.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's benefit just showing up, But that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean you're I mean, is it your perspective that by
Speaker 2: showing up, you're I mean that they're taking there. They're
Speaker 2: not just dipping their toe of support, They're they're swimming.
Speaker 1: Yes, they changed the algorithms. Some of these people who
Speaker 1: were previously banned or not allowed to monetize on these platforms,
Speaker 1: the floodgates have been opened and they are allowed to
Speaker 1: do this. And you know, there is an important distinction
Speaker 1: to make because I was very much on the free
Speaker 1: speech absolutism. And that's different when you're the audience, you're
Speaker 1: speaking to his local or you're making local change or
Speaker 1: national change. But now you're demanding to be on this
Speaker 1: global platform and your words have global consequences, and to
Speaker 1: pretend like the rules of the Inn and these influence
Speaker 1: operations and speech can be comparable to that within your
Speaker 1: local town square is asinine.
Speaker 2: You're going to law school, Ashley, Yes, and so what's
Speaker 2: the what's the I mean is there there's got to
Speaker 2: be a book? Come on, you're telling me you're not
Speaker 2: working on a book.
Speaker 1: It's impossible, You're i do write a lot. I write
Speaker 1: enough that if I wanted to make a book, I
Speaker 1: could publish it tomorrow.
Speaker 2: So you're writing a book.
Speaker 1: I do write. I write, and I do a lot
Speaker 1: of like aid memoir. But it's not the right time
Speaker 1: for me to sell anything to anybody right now. It's
Speaker 1: just not I have a lot of work that I
Speaker 1: need to do in financial amends that I need to
Speaker 1: make to the communities that I contributed harm to, and
Speaker 1: there's there's gonna be a lot of backlash for a while.
Speaker 1: I think there's also this this effect where I'm the
Speaker 1: most accessible MAGA figure to many people now, so they
Speaker 1: like to take it out on me. And that's okay,
Speaker 1: and I understand, but there is when you leave, you
Speaker 1: realize the vast amounts of harm that you contributed to
Speaker 1: and the very real harm that I was ignorant to
Speaker 1: because of my own privilege, Like I just didn't have
Speaker 1: these experiences. And there's so much happening. They talk about
Speaker 1: the transfer of wealth, it's not really a transfer wealth.
Speaker 1: It's a transfer of losses. Even if we take the
Speaker 1: space X I p O right, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are going to lose in their four A
Speaker 1: one case, and this is their pensions. In their four
Speaker 1: to one case, the losses are being transferred to them
Speaker 1: because the big banks don't want to take the losses.
Speaker 1: It's this transfer of losses onto the lesser people that
Speaker 1: I think we really need to consider and start demanding
Speaker 1: that people in positions of privilege take more losses on themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean making me think of Trump and Millennia's
Speaker 2: are Donald and Millennia's meme coins and they come to
Speaker 2: trate all the losses or absorbed by the base of
Speaker 2: the party, And yes, we're betefitan them. What, by the way,
Speaker 2: I did ask you the obvious question, what was the
Speaker 2: trigger that made you say I got to get the
Speaker 2: hell out of here?
Speaker 1: There were many things. I always say it was cumulative,
Speaker 1: like I saw so much harm, but I didn't I
Speaker 1: didn't have the coconuts to leave. I didn't have the
Speaker 1: courage to leave. But then once you're given an offer,
Speaker 1: like a forty million dollar NDA, and you're looking at
Speaker 1: your two kids, who you want nothing but the best for,
Speaker 1: and you have to say, like what, am I gonna
Speaker 1: have integrity right now? Or am I gonna have a
Speaker 1: burken And so I had to make that decision. I'm like,
Speaker 1: am I going to buy a house for my kids?
Speaker 1: Or am I going to struggle and do the right thing?
Speaker 1: And I decided to struggle and do the right thing.
Speaker 1: So that was the moment that I'm like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: once I say no to this, because once you say
Speaker 1: no to a man like Elon, it's as if you
Speaker 1: never said yes. You know, so I knew what the
Speaker 1: effects of telling him no, we're going to be.
Speaker 2: Are you been surprised by people in the movement that
Speaker 2: have remained loyal to you, that are quiet, have your back,
Speaker 2: that are cheering.
Speaker 1: You on no, And there's a lot I've been surprised
Speaker 1: by more of the people who have resonated with what
Speaker 1: I'm saying and and said they really want to speak out.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you a lot of these people can't
Speaker 1: because of NDAs, because of their employment agreements with Fox,
Speaker 1: because of their agreements with various companies, And that needs
Speaker 1: to be addressed. If we want more people to speak out,
Speaker 1: there has to be this has to be addressed, this
Speaker 1: proliferation of NDAs, and we have to protect them.
Speaker 2: Who's been the most vicious to you, Who's who are
Speaker 2: you really disappointed that you're, like, I mean, they are
Speaker 2: really taking it out on you for a quote unquote
Speaker 2: selling out or something or you know, turning your back
Speaker 2: to the movement.
Speaker 1: I think I'm most disappointed in Elon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, on that note, it's a good stuff that
Speaker 2: spots to many questions.
Speaker 1: But but no, actually, you know, I will say, I'm
Speaker 1: most disappointed in myself.
Speaker 2: I must disappointed to regret who you were.
Speaker 1: I most disappointed that I didn't have courage sooner, and
Speaker 1: I would encourage anyone who's still in that to to
Speaker 1: not let a decade of regret pile up.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's a mature thing to say,
Speaker 2: and and uh and it's and it look it's you know,
Speaker 2: I I wish you the best, and I hope you
Speaker 2: don't feel exploited by folks like myself on the other
Speaker 2: side of this that will obviously be chasing you to
Speaker 2: exploit the other side.
Speaker 1: You really believe having an open conversation, because I could
Speaker 1: have come on here and just been you know, thank you, governor.
Speaker 1: But there were things that I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about that just with my personal experience with tech and
Speaker 1: AI that I've come to the understand that okay, if
Speaker 1: you're going to do it, make sure that you're honest
Speaker 1: and you don't hold anything back. So I appreciate you
Speaker 1: for being open with those conversations and concerns as well.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I appreciate highlighting I mean, just a
Speaker 2: new age of transparency and accountability, but also what's so
Speaker 2: opaque and we're not even looking at in terms of
Speaker 2: the rules and regulations and truth and trust and so
Speaker 2: this has been a fun conversation, Ashley. I really appreciate
Speaker 2: you taking the time, and good luck with everything, and
Speaker 2: thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you.