1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:09,920
Speaker 1: It was a profound moment. It's the duality of Oh

2
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: my god, what in the world, Who is this cruel?

3
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,560
Speaker 1: Who can pull this off? Whose friends pull it off?

4
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: How do you fabricate the details like that?

5
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

6
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

7
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,080
Speaker 2: change everything.

8
00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: My real name is Deborah, but typically everyone calls me Dad.

9
00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 2: Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

10
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 2: She recently retired from her role as the senior director

11
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,280
Speaker 2: of her tribe's domestic violence program, and before that, she

12
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 2: spent her entire career as a nurse.

13
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,479
Speaker 1: After being an rin well now it's been forty eight

14
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 1: and a half years.

15
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she

16
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,839
Speaker 2: developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.

17
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,679
Speaker 1: When you mansion bullshit detectors, I can spot them a

18
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 1: football field away or further.

19
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 2: Deb is Cherokee and proud of her Native American heritage.

20
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,919
Speaker 1: My grandmother who lived until she was ninety nine years old.

21
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,319
Speaker 1: She is actually our family's original in Rowly, which means

22
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,120
Speaker 1: she is on the Dows role.

23
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,480
Speaker 2: The DAWs role was a list compiled by the US

24
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960
Speaker 2: government in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds.

25
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 2: It named about one hundred thousand Native Americans who were

26
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 2: allotted land.

27
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 1: Which was pretty unusual to have an unregionally in your

28
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 1: life for most of it.

29
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 2: Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a

30
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:07,280
Speaker 2: source of inspiration.

31
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 1: I think I thought a lot of my propter will

32
00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: and strength and courage from her. She was born before

33
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: statehood and she was still stacking her own wood when

34
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,239
Speaker 1: she was in her early nineties. She was a survivor

35
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: of many many situations in her life.

36
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,520
Speaker 2: Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father

37
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,360
Speaker 2: did too. As a child, his own father was murdered

38
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 2: in front of him.

39
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 1: Those life events are what gives the background and the

40
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 1: experience to what we would call intergenerational trauma or historical trauma.

41
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 2: She saw the impact of that on her family. There

42
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 2: was alcoholism and emotional and when she was young, Deb

43
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:03,960
Speaker 2: struggled to process it.

44
00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 1: When you're a very sensitive nature child, your little heart's

45
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 1: open and you're intuitive, you pick up that energy.

46
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,240
Speaker 2: From a young age. She experienced violence and abuse herself.

47
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 1: The violence I experience, I truly am my heart know

48
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: that it's as a result of those that could not heal.

49
00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 2: Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become

50
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 2: a civil servant.

51
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,960
Speaker 1: He taught me a lot about community service. He would

52
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 1: be in his vehicle driving through the rural areas seeing

53
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 1: what the natives needed, and ultimately he was a councilman

54
00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: for their tribe, served many many years.

55
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 2: Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact,

56
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,120
Speaker 2: on our sixteenth birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.

57
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 1: They had a birthday party for me and he asked

58
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: me to marry him, and I accepted. That was the

59
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 1: day I turned sixteen.

60
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,880
Speaker 2: But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her

61
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 2: father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.

62
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: He was the one in the family who said you

63
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,919
Speaker 1: must have an education, and so at age seventeen, I

64
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 1: did start college and I finished at nineteen with my

65
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 1: first RN degree. That was as a result to my

66
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 1: dad pushing me.

67
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 2: Before she even had a chance to know herself, she

68
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 2: was married and working as a full time nurse.

69
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm running the hospital as a baby nurse.

70
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: I'd probably turn twenty maybe twenty one, by then. It

71
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,479
Speaker 1: was tough, but I spent a good part of my

72
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,960
Speaker 1: energy on trying to achieve perfection.

73
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 2: And her husband shared a very similar upbringing.

74
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 1: He came from a violent background, very similar to mine,

75
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,599
Speaker 1: and so we just went together like peanut, butter and jelly.

76
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 2: They had two sons together, but a few years into marriage,

77
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 2: her husband's behavior became a problem.

78
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 1: He struggled with drugs and drinking, and he had violent tendencies.

79
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,120
Speaker 1: It was really hard.

80
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,840
Speaker 2: She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the

81
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,240
Speaker 2: cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment

82
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 2: for her and her two sons.

83
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: And so for many years I remained single and just

84
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 1: spent time with myself and the boys. And so for

85
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,800
Speaker 1: the next few years after we divorced, I sought to understand.

86
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 1: I bought books, I joined book club, anything on self understanding.

87
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,919
Speaker 2: She started going to therapy and joined support groups for

88
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 2: families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life

89
00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 2: for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers,

90
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 2: she looked around and realized.

91
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: I did want to partner in live. You know, someone

92
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,680
Speaker 1: to enjoy life, that I meant something too, that I'm

93
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:18,160
Speaker 1: mad or.

94
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 2: Too She was forty one and felt ready to explore

95
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,919
Speaker 2: a new partnership, so she made an online dating profile.

96
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 2: This was nineteen ninety seven, back when online dating was

97
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 2: a novel concept.

98
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah this aint bumble, this a yeah, this is none

99
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:34,480
Speaker 1: of that stuff.

100
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,719
Speaker 2: One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.

101
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 1: His profile was just romantic. It was something like I'm

102
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: looking for my gwinevere.

103
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,479
Speaker 2: Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like

104
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 2: a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a

105
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 2: couple states away in Kentucky, but their conversation flowed easily

106
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: and Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They

107
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 2: both loved golf, and Jeff wanted to hear more about

108
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,320
Speaker 2: Deb's Cherokee culture.

109
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 1: You know, the music, a spiritual journey. He loved the

110
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 1: Native American spiritual practices. And when I talked to him,

111
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: I was just smitten with him.

112
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,160
Speaker 2: She looked forward to his phone calls and emails.

113
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: I saved all of that. I printed everything. I had

114
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 1: a huge three inch purple binder with all of our exchanges.

115
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 2: As they got closer, she got to know more about

116
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 2: his backstory.

117
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 1: He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada.

118
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 2: He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States,

119
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 2: and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.

120
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,640
Speaker 1: He didn't know he's real dad. His stepdad was very

121
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 1: violent and he would share stories like, you know, his

122
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 1: stepdad murdered the family poodle in front of his sister

123
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 1: and his mom and him, and I mean, it was

124
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: horrible stories.

125
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 2: Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She

126
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 2: understood what it was like, so they bonded over their

127
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 2: difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd

128
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 2: fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as

129
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 2: a young man, and along the way he picked up

130
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 2: the accent.

131
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 1: So when he would talk to me on the phone,

132
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,680
Speaker 1: he would have that you know dialect. He would say hello,

133
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 1: Darlin and a dory. Yeah, I can't do it. But

134
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: it was definitely New Orleans.

135
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: Jeff's ex wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans,

136
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 2: but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.

137
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: He was a project manager for a big construction company

138
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,560
Speaker 1: that you know, worked on Toyota plants that worked on

139
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 1: the University of Kentucky that had done all this great work.

140
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,080
Speaker 2: Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million

141
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 2: lives in one.

142
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: He just fascinated me. He was a pilot and played

143
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 1: football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State and was phenomenal.

144
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 2: DEP could really see herself with this guy.

145
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 1: We're gonna embark upon this journey together. We love music,

146
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,160
Speaker 1: we love golf, We're both seekers. I just was so

147
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 1: excited about meeting this man.

148
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 2: After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet

149
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,800
Speaker 2: each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he

150
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 2: arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with

151
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: a gift.

152
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 1: God had a traditional here. A medicine man gone to

153
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 1: him and asked him to be a feather. There was

154
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: a song by Robbie Robertson and the name of it

155
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,839
Speaker 1: was Golden Feather, My Love of Golden Feather, and if

156
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 1: you would look it up, it's so that I never

157
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 1: lose my way home. And I thought, what a beautiful

158
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: expression of love for this new man in my life

159
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,200
Speaker 1: to give him a feather because he loves that Native

160
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 1: American song so much. So I met him at the

161
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 1: plane with that and I said, here's so you can

162
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,120
Speaker 1: always find your way home.

163
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 2: And Jeff had come with the surprise of his own.

164
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 1: Since he got off the plane and he was walking

165
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 1: toward me. It seemed like his voice was shaking, and

166
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,720
Speaker 1: he said, you will marry me, won't you. You're gonna

167
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 1: marry me right, You are marrying me right.

168
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 2: That was Jeff's marriage proposal.

169
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, of course, of course, yes.

170
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 2: The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to

171
00:10:58,600 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 2: get to know her world.

172
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 1: You know. I drove around, showed ing the rural area,

173
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: my history, some of the culture where I were. We

174
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: went out to my golf course. I introduced him to

175
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends, met the family. It was

176
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 1: just a really good weekend. I just loved him, just

177
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,000
Speaker 1: loved him.

178
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 2: They started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.

179
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 1: And I'm a planner and an organizer in every aspect

180
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 1: in my life. So shoot, the next thing, you know,

181
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 1: I'm getting busy. I'm helping him find jobs. He's getting

182
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 1: his resumeating. Of course, we're still using facts is then,

183
00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 1: and he would send things and I would write cover

184
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: letters for him to help him get relocated.

185
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 2: A few months later, Jeff moved in. They spent the

186
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,200
Speaker 2: next year, planning a small family wedding in Theosarks.

187
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 1: We married on April twenty third, two thousand.

188
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,559
Speaker 2: It was the anniversary of the day they met in person.

189
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 2: Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son,

190
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: Little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was

191
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,600
Speaker 2: a true merging of their lives.

192
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 1: I really thought it was meant to be.

193
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 2: They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf

194
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,240
Speaker 2: trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing

195
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 2: for her entire life. Every year she and her friends

196
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,679
Speaker 2: traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join.

197
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 2: He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but

198
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,439
Speaker 2: he hadn't played in years.

199
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 1: So he lost these golf clubs. Well, heck, you know,

200
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,640
Speaker 1: I gotta go buying golf clubs, you know, because he's

201
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: got to have golf clubs off a month play. So

202
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 1: then he needed lessons because he just hadn't got to

203
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,079
Speaker 1: play in a while. He said, needed to brush up.

204
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 2: But on their first golf trip with her friends.

205
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 1: Once we got all scores in and everything, the winner

206
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 1: was him, and I was like, well, god, oh, great job.

207
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 2: But Deb's friends were stand offish with Jeff about his win,

208
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 2: and one of her friends was quick to point out.

209
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,800
Speaker 1: A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind.

210
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 1: It didn't make sense.

211
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 2: Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't

212
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 2: know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that

213
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 2: they weren't invited on any more golf trips.

214
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 1: I felt like everybody was mistreating him.

215
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 2: A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to

216
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 2: find the right job in Oklahoma. One day when Deb

217
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,160
Speaker 2: was helping him with an application.

218
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: Well, I sound an old resume, and on this particular

219
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 1: resume it says Vietnam veteran. I was like, my god.

220
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 2: He'd never told her he was a veteran. But Deb

221
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 2: had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting

222
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 2: her Advanced Nursing degree, she worked on a program at

223
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,719
Speaker 2: the VA that specific studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD.

224
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, you never told me you were a veteran.

225
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,959
Speaker 1: You never told me you were in the Vietnam War.

226
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: That is a significant event in life. Was flabbergasted. It

227
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: had never come up, and he said, well, I don't

228
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 1: like to talk about it. Deb I use it on

229
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,120
Speaker 1: my resumes, because you know that ought to tell you

230
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,600
Speaker 1: something I was like, But she should have told me.

231
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: I should never found out here.

232
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,400
Speaker 2: Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even

233
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with

234
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 2: veterans and PTSD.

235
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 1: And so over the course of time, he began to

236
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 1: tell me what happened. It was an elaborate story, intricate details.

237
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 2: As an eighteen year old, he'd been in the Special

238
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 2: Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers

239
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,640
Speaker 2: using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers

240
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 2: allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a

241
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 2: prisoner of war and for months he.

242
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 1: Was tortured and they bust at his feet with the

243
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 1: butt of a gun so that he couldn't walk. But

244
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 1: he got out. He escaped and he made it back

245
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 1: to the US Forces by following the path of a stream,

246
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 1: and it was so difficult because his feet were busted up.

247
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 2: He was taken to a veteran's hospital.

248
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 1: He had to have metal put in his feet because

249
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 1: they were broken and if we flew anywhere it would

250
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 1: trigger the metal alarms as you go in.

251
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 2: He recovered physically and was discharged, but psychologically he was scarred.

252
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: The trauma was so bad. He said, it was just

253
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,520
Speaker 1: so awful that sometimes he would just get in the

254
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 1: closet and he would just hide.

255
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 2: Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his

256
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 2: support system was then. He was in a new place

257
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 2: and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb

258
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 2: was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They

259
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 2: invited him back to Canada.

260
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: His siblings had said that his mother's eightieth birthday party

261
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 1: was coming up and they wanted him to come. And

262
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: he talked to him about it, and I said, well,

263
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: we've got to I've never met any of your family.

264
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: And absolutely.

265
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 2: A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet

266
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 2: his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were

267
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 2: elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought you'd

268
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 2: get the chance to meet his siblings.

269
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 1: I finally got to meet his family. I was just

270
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 1: so excited to be there and to meet them. And

271
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, at one of the brothers' houses, we might

272
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: play games and just chat and get to know each other.

273
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 2: Deb fit right in.

274
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 1: We didn't have any serious, meaningful conversations about life or anything.

275
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,000
Speaker 1: We were just doing a friendly, cordial meet the family thing.

276
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,199
Speaker 1: He was up be. Everyone was up be. It was

277
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: a good trip.

278
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 2: It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

279
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 2: Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there

280
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,199
Speaker 2: was in on a secret, everyone except for her Her husband.

281
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 2: Jeff wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone

282
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 2: and his family knew Jeff by a different name.

283
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,080
Speaker 1: Come to find out. He met his siblings at the

284
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 1: door and told him I'm going by Jeff Walton. Now

285
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,159
Speaker 1: I'll tell you later.

286
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 2: Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with

287
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 2: his estranged family, and to her surprise, the trip was

288
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,440
Speaker 2: a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer.

289
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 2: But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff

290
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: collapsed on the golf course.

291
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 1: And a friend of ours founding setting up against a

292
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:36,280
Speaker 1: tree and wanted him to let him take him into

293
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: the hospital, and he said, no, just take me to

294
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 1: my car, and so he did that. He got in

295
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: his car and he drove home.

296
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 2: Deb met him at their house and forced him to

297
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,719
Speaker 2: go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack.

298
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 2: It would require ongoing care but Jeff still hadn't nailed

299
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 2: down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering

300
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: his medical expenses. Jeb had worked at the VA years

301
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 2: ago and insisted it was their best resource.

302
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,160
Speaker 1: And he absolutely said, I will not go. I don't

303
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 1: trust the government. I'm not going. And I said, well,

304
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: that's bullshit. We're going broke. We've got to get your

305
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 1: health care.

306
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: That's when Jeff explained the VA what didn't take him.

307
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 1: He said, they don't even have a list of me

308
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,360
Speaker 1: because I was dishonorably discharged because I reported the officers.

309
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 1: They won't even have me on the well, anything to

310
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 1: do with the VA. And I said, that's bullshit. You

311
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 1: were a soldier, you were captured. And he said, I

312
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,879
Speaker 1: won't go. He got up and he never talked about

313
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: it again. In that moment, I was like, that is weird.

314
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 2: Explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone

315
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: to look into Jeff's background.

316
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if I need to get a private investigator

317
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: or something. And I logged on to the internet and

318
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: then I was like, God, I don't have any money

319
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: to get a private detective.

320
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: She didn't have the money or the time to hire

321
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 2: a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke.

322
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 2: Then his memory began to falter. All the while he

323
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 2: was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained

324
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 2: the family, and Deb was at a loss.

325
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 1: I had begun to say, I do not know what

326
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: is wrong with my life. How am I going to

327
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 1: get this guy health care? He's got to have healthcare.

328
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: Deb was his primary caretaker on top of her full

329
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 2: time nursing job. It was overwhelming.

330
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: I begin to drink, and then I drink heavily, and

331
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: then it was uncontrollably.

332
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: Alcohol became an escape from her marriage and its problems.

333
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: When I started drinking, I didn't have to be confused

334
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 1: anymore because my brain was numb.

335
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: Deb had spent so many years taking care of other

336
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 2: people that she neglected herself.

337
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 1: As the person that was going to alan on from

338
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: the mid eighties, taking family, taking coworkers, taking friends to

339
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: aa NA rehab. I was taken everybody to get help,

340
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 1: but myself had, I guess, reached just a hard stop

341
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: where I couldn't deal with it.

342
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: Deb had just turned fifty and had been with Jeff

343
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder

344
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 2: year after year. At first he failed to bring in

345
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused

346
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: resources for affordable health care. Deb turned to booze for

347
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 2: the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking,

348
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 2: she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball

349
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 2: on the tee. She checked herself into a thirty day rehab.

350
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: Best move I ever made. I'm not going to tell

351
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: you it was pretty. It was ugly, but there's always

352
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: been a driving force within me to rise above.

353
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: Being alone. In rehab gave her a lot of clarity,

354
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 2: and with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When

355
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a

356
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: new set of eyes.

357
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 1: I began to really observe he was strange. Something was

358
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: not right, not right.

359
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was

360
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: on her new sobriety, but she did come up with

361
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 2: a plan to get some answers out of Jeff. She

362
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 2: gave him an assignment.

363
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: And I began to say to him, Jeff, every day

364
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 1: while I'm at work, I want you to work on

365
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: your life story because I don't understand it. You told

366
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: me you were born in Alaska and you moved to Canada,

367
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: but I don't know where you even went to school.

368
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know when you moved to Canada. If

369
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: something happens, I'm going to be honest with you. I

370
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: can't even write an obituary.

371
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: She thought it would be a good exercise for both

372
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: of them, and she hoped it could help her understand

373
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: why he was the way he was.

374
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: And so every day I would come home and I

375
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: would we'll share your story with me. Oh, I couldn't

376
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: work on it today.

377
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: After his stroke, Jeff's memory was worse than ever.

378
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: He began to claim that he just didn't have much

379
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: of a memory, but the neurologist at the time of

380
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 1: his stroke had already advised me that the stroke was

381
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: not going to impact his memory. Then he wanted me

382
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: to get in checked for possible early dementia.

383
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: He needed more care than she could provide a home,

384
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: so she applied for him to be in a funded

385
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: outpatient care facility and he was accepted.

386
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful program that where you stay in your home,

387
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: but they basically have a center that's opened during the

388
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 1: day and there's activities and transportation. There's clinic on side,

389
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: everything that you could need, and if you need something outside,

390
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: they'll take you.

391
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: He started going to the center every day.

392
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: That was until the program called me and they said,

393
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: have you talked to Jeff? Because nobody confining he's gone.

394
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 2: Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was.

395
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost,

396
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: so they called the police.

397
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: Come to find out. He had left the group and

398
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: the care team to go to the bank.

399
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening.

400
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 2: The whole said situation confirmed that he really needed this facility.

401
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly

402
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call.

403
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: Only this one would change her life forever.

404
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: It was a number I didn't recognizing. I typically didn't

405
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: pick those up in the office.

406
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling.

407
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 2: When she picked up. There was a police officer on

408
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 2: the other line, and.

409
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: I was like, what is this about.

410
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 2: The officer was Canadian and he was investigating a cold

411
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: case from thirty years ago.

412
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: That's when he began to say that they were looking

413
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: for ron Stan, and they had believed that they're tracking

414
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: down through social media.

415
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: But Deb didn't know a ron Stan. The officer continued,

416
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man

417
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: named ron Stan for over thirty years. He disappeared during.

418
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: A There was a fire in his barn at night,

419
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: and initially he was presumed to have been in that fire,

420
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: and he had left a wife, infant, and another child.

421
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: Deb's blood ran cold. She knew what the officer was

422
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: about to say before he said it. The man she

423
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: was married to, who she knew as Jeff Walton.

424
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: Was actually the complete fraud. He was ron Stan, who

425
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: was dismissing person.

426
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about ron Stan. He was originally declared dead,

427
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: but in reality he'd been on the run ever since

428
00:26:43,440 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: that barnfire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got

429
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian

430
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: police officer. They were looking for ron Stan, a Canadian

431
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an

432
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: arson fire in nineteen seventy seven, and they believed they'd

433
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: found him in the United States. He was hiding out

434
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation using the

435
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to.

436
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: Deb, initially I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.

437
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: So she asked the officer for proof, for details.

438
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: The more I push for dates, times, names, locations, the

439
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: more I realized, oh ugh.

440
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: She didn't see much on the phone. She just listened,

441
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: writing down everything the police told.

442
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: Her, every detail, dates, times, information. I still have that notepad.

443
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff or Ron directly.

444
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Deb explained that he was in a care facility during

445
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their

446
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: home address, thanked the officer and hung up the phone

447
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: in disbelief.

448
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: I was sitting there when there was a nurse that

449
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: looked at me from an office door and she said,

450
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: are you okay. I remember saying, I don't know. I've

451
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: just had the most bizarre phone call. So I went

452
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: to talk to my director of nursing and she said,

453
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: get out of here. What in the world.

454
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: She debated whether this phone call was real, if the

455
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: person on the phone was even a police officer. A

456
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: coworker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility, he.

457
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: Probably is in witness protection and you just blew it,

458
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: so you're probably not safe, nor is he. And they said,

459
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: we'll go with you to the Cherokee Nation Marshals and

460
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: we will get to the bottom of this.

461
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if

462
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could

463
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concern seriously

464
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 2: and started making calls.

465
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: I gave her the sale number, the badge number, and

466
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: everything from the officer that called. And she did call,

467
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: and she confirmed every last detail.

468
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of

469
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: eleven years was a missing person, a man named Ronald

470
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: Stan who'd faked his death in an arson fire and

471
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: had been on the run for thirty years.

472
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: I was just heartsick, gut sick, heartsick, my whole body responded,

473
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: and all I could think of was, who are you?

474
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: How could you do this?

475
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario

476
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: andnineteen seventy seven, he abandoned his wife and two young sons.

477
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: In order to escape, He had lit his barn on fire,

478
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless,

479
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: fearing that ron was trapped inside.

480
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: That poor wife and those two sons that he walked

481
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: away from in this barn far in the middle of

482
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: the night. What horror, what pain, what trauma that they

483
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: must have endured, thinking that they were watching him burn

484
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: up in front of their eyes.

485
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: Why he'd faked his death. Deb wouldn't find out until

486
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't

487
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: go home, not to the house she shared with him.

488
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 2: He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So

489
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.

490
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: Go to an attorney, go to the bank, and get protection.

491
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: So that's what I did.

492
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the

493
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay

494
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: at her place while she figured out her next move.

495
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: I just was in a state of robot just trying

496
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: to put one foot in front of the other and

497
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: then formulate a plan on how to tell the family.

498
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: She met with her sons to break the news, and

499
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the

500
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: one he'd had in America after he went on the run.

501
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.

502
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: I loved that boy. He was my son too, you know,

503
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: he was a third son, So my heart hurt for him,

504
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: just like it did for my boys. To tell him.

505
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: Everyone in the family called him Little Jeff. He was

506
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: named after his father, or rather his father's alias.

507
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: And gives respec The box was, you know, silent initially

508
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: as you could imagine, and then just struggling. We both

509
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: needed some time to just deal.

510
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: The one person she didn't want to speak with was Jeff.

511
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: I really did not have any communication with him whatsoever.

512
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: I just had nothing to say.

513
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: When the authorities finally got ahold of Jeff, they questioned

514
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: him and asked to see his proof of identity.

515
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: He admitted to everything.

516
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to

517
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: police officers asking what took them so long? Because the

518
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations

519
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: had expired in Canada, and authorities in the US couldn't

520
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: charge him either.

521
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: There was no charges to be made here. You know,

522
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: he's a scam, but there's no charges that I could file.

523
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: The only legal action deb could take was filing for divorce.

524
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: The domestic Violence Service of the tribe helped me and

525
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: just took the papers and when they served in the papers,

526
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: he just signed it. He didn't even question it.

527
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: The news got wind of the story and it was

528
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: a media frenzy.

529
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Media showed up, some Canada and some Oklahoma from the UK.

530
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: I just didn't have any peace. I could rarely go home.

531
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: My phone ranking constantly. I was just completely overwhelmed.

532
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: Debsnye's drafted a statement to send to the press on

533
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: her behalf, and deb kept tabs on the news. That's

534
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: how she learned Jeff's real life story, the one he

535
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star

536
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered

537
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: a possible motivation for why he faked his death.

538
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Evidently, he was messing with young college girls and he

539
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: was getting ready to get in trouble.

540
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: At the time of the arson, Ron was working at

541
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with

542
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: a local girl who was much younger. The day he

543
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed.

544
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: It's not clear how old the girl was, but the

545
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the

546
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled

547
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: it off.

548
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: When he left Canada in the fire in Cana, New Orleans,

549
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: he said, I've got to find a woman with money.

550
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd

551
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: never told deb about. And after he found a woman

552
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.

553
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: He got a social Security from somebody that had died

554
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: in the seventies, a girl, so he took over her

555
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: social security.

556
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: He used his stolen identity to find work and even

557
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: collect Social Security benefits.

558
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: That's how he worked in the decades that he came

559
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: to the United States. He used this social security and

560
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: false name. I don't know how anybody pulls this off.

561
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 1: It's so elaborate.

562
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media

563
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: about how and why he faked his death, and he

564
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: seemed to revel in it.

565
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star.

566
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: He said. He chose the name Jeff because it was

567
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada,

568
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV

569
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 2: show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name.

570
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: As for the documents he used to marry Dub, they

571
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: appeared to be forged.

572
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: I had seen his birth certificate and I still have it.

573
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: But when you look there are things that have been changed.

574
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: Like the arson. Too much time had passed for him

575
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: to be charged in the US with identity fraud. And

576
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: what about his elaborate stories like being a prisoner of

577
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: war in Vietnam.

578
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: It's all made up.

579
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: That's why he was so resistant to using the VA.

580
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even

581
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: an American citizen. The POW story, well, he ripped those

582
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: details straight out of a movie called Platoon starring Charlie Sheen.

583
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: And his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.

584
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: There was never anybody that played football, so Woody Hayes

585
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: by his name.

586
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: Ever, Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told

587
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: her was true. Today she doubts if he'd even swung

588
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: a golf club before she met him. After all his

589
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean

590
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced

591
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: them out. Well, back then the group had discovered that.

592
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: He cheated all day, he never counts the strokes, and

593
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: when he was out of bounds, he never counted it.

594
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from

595
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play

596
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: with the group again. Even his memory issues were alie.

597
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: When he talked to the press after the fact, he

598
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was

599
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: really going on that day when he went missing from

600
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: the facility and was found at the bank. Deb suspects

601
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: he was planning an escape. She also wonders if he

602
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: targeted her because she lives in a rural part of

603
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: the Cherokee Nation.

604
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: It's very possible because look, this is rule, this is

605
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: a dead end road. Maybe he did think, hey, I

606
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: can get out in the woods and rule Oklahoma and

607
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 1: continue the hide.

608
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is

609
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage.

610
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal, but behind the scenes,

611
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: Jeff had asked all of his family members to use

612
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 2: his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said

613
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 2: they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.

614
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: They did it because they'd lost him once and they

615
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: didn't want to lose him again. And I think they

616
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: were just so happy to have him back in their lives.

617
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than

618
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her.

619
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception.

620
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer

621
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: to him, what name to call him by, whether to

622
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: call him Ron or Jeff.

623
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: But I had a really dear friend. She nicknamed him Raf,

624
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: and so for a while when I referred to him,

625
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: it was ref But now I usually just say Jeff.

626
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb

627
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: was emotion destroyed. It all happened in her first year

628
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son,

629
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.

630
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: I just remember it was a profound moment. It's the

631
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: duality of oh, my god, what in the world along

632
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: with you have to live, you have to deal with

633
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: this and go on. And I remember just laying in

634
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: the floor, just face down and just solvely and saying,

635
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: my god, how does another human do this to a human?

636
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: And the guise of love.

637
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like

638
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 2: her world had ended.

639
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: I just had so much pain and confusion. I got

640
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: on my knees, I leaned into a chair, and I

641
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: just kept praying and asking for help, and just if

642
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: you can get me on my feet, I will go forward.

643
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: I will keep my sobriety. I promise a promise. I

644
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: made a commitment to live life, to help others, to

645
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: be the best person I can, to be loving, kind.

646
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: I mean, those were the things I'd always been, but

647
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: I was not going to let this make me harsh

648
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: and hateful.

649
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.

650
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,479
Speaker 1: You know, we often talk of spiritual awakenings. I feel

651
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: like I've had a few in my life. But that

652
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: was profound, profound, And when I stood up, you know,

653
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: I was still crying, but I wasn't suffering as much.

654
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: I didn't feel the pain as deep at the betrayal

655
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: or shock, and I knew that when I stood up,

656
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: that it was something great later than me. It said,

657
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: get up, you got work to do.

658
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: Go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed

659
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: on her feet ever since.

660
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: I made a commitment to do that in that moment,

661
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: and I've never turned back, and I've never tried to

662
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: rewrite the story, and I don't want to live in bitterness.

663
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: I still wanted to be open hearted and help others,

664
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: and that's what set the tone for the years to

665
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: where we are today.

666
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: She's now eleven years sober.

667
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: I maintained sobriety. I was dedicated to my meetings, and

668
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: I was dedicated to the spiritual journey and dealing with

669
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: my loss and grief and shock.

670
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: She took on a leadership role in her tribe as

671
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: director of a program providing resources and support to victims

672
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: of domestic violence.

673
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: I would say, you've still got to stay working on

674
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: your emotional health because it's a tough service. What I

675
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: know for sure is that we can't help others adequately

676
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: or appropriately if we haven't begun our own work to hear.

677
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm more effective in these last years

678
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: because of all the work I've done.

679
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, she got a call from Jeff's son,

680
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: Jeff had passed away.

681
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: It was a sense of relief, but also all the

682
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: emotions that flood into that moment, you.

683
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: Just have to hold them in the last few years,

684
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: her life has taken an unexpected turn.

685
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,479
Speaker 1: I've just recently married on September seventh, and I never

686
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: saw it come in both of us or never's And

687
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: it was the most beautiful wedding outdoors, overlooking the lake.

688
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: It was just beautiful, romantic, just wonderful.

689
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: After all, she did make a commitment to being open hearted.

690
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: Her new husband meets her at her level, and he's

691
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: put in the work too.

692
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: He is also sober, him forty something years. Both of

693
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: us love golf, both of us love music. It's just

694
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: a blessing for us both. We feel so grateful. It's

695
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: too bad we're meeting each other at seventy and sixty seven,

696
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: but here we are.

697
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,

698
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: why did you want to share your story?

699
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: If my story could help others identify lies from their

700
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: partner earlier, that's one part. The real part is we

701
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 1: can hear, and we can have a good lie, and

702
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: we can live well the trauma and the pain and

703
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: the suffering and the sorrow. We have the potential to

704
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: just be an amazing human. On the other side, leave

705
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: your heart open, love others, help others learn boundaries set limits.

706
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal.

707
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: My mom was the first one to be like, does

708
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 3: this seem off at all to you? It was really

709
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: the first time someone said something that made me think,

710
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 3: what do you mean off? Like I had never considered

711
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 3: doubting it.

712
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

713
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

714
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal

715
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: pod at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support.

716
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: One way to show us it is by subscribing to

717
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate

718
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.

719
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal

720
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: is a production of.

721
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership

722
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 4: with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy

723
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 4: Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,

724
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 4: written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

725
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 4: Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart

726
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 4: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and

727
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 4: mixing by Matt Delvecchio.

728
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by

729
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: Oliver Bains.

730
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 4: Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts

731
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 4: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

732
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 4: you get your podcasts