Speaker 1: Worrying.
Speaker 2: Today's episode contains spoilers for episodes four through six of
Speaker 2: and Or season two, so be warned.
Speaker 1: Hello, my name is.
Speaker 2: Jason Concepcion and on Wedsday Night, and welcome back to
Speaker 2: ext revision of the podcast where we dive deep into
Speaker 2: your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture.
Speaker 3: Coming to you.
Speaker 1: From My Heart Podcast.
Speaker 2: We're reading you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday,
Speaker 2: and Thursday.
Speaker 4: Plus news and in today's news plus news. In today's episode,
Speaker 4: you loved it, and we're back. It's the round Table.
Speaker 4: We are convening the Jedi Council to break down the
Speaker 4: rather amazing episodes four to six of and Or season two.
Speaker 4: So we're bringing in the crew. Welcome, Joel and Naboo.
Speaker 4: That was not mental rhyme, but it did today. I
Speaker 4: love to have you back.
Speaker 2: Well, we already did our recap, so let's get your
Speaker 2: initial reactions and Joel on episodes four, five, and six
Speaker 2: of and ORCS and two.
Speaker 1: Joel, let's start with you.
Speaker 5: Wow, what a show, guys. I was scared for these
Speaker 5: episodes because I was worried Bix was gonna be suffering
Speaker 5: the whole time, but they got us out at the end.
Speaker 5: I think the man Mathma and Crenic moment was maybe
Speaker 5: the best verbal spat we've had in Star Wars ever.
Speaker 5: It's so beautiful, like what a great breakdown of uh,
Speaker 5: the Resistance versus the Empire's like entire thought process and
Speaker 5: it's happening all while poor Cleya is like crushing her
Speaker 5: hand open trying to get out. I do think I
Speaker 5: thought these episodes were a little slower, but I'm not
Speaker 5: mad at the pacing. Okay, hear me out. I've heard
Speaker 5: people be like, still, not a lot is happening, and
Speaker 5: I was like, okay, but also, you're learning about an
Speaker 5: entirely new world. You're getting great spy theatrics. And I
Speaker 5: do feel the pressure cooker of Rogue one building, and
Speaker 5: I think you kind of want to be the frog
Speaker 5: in the boiling water on that. You want to feel
Speaker 5: a pressure slowly rise and the overwhelmed slowly happening. I
Speaker 5: think the key to that was Luthan being terrified losing
Speaker 5: his shit. For like Luman was cracking. He was like,
Speaker 5: why did we do that?
Speaker 4: You made me?
Speaker 5: You made me do it?
Speaker 6: Like that?
Speaker 1: That was great that that was a really cool moment.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's such a key like insight to oh.
Speaker 5: Luvin is struggling to keep the rebellion going on his own.
Speaker 5: Everybody is desperate and separated. We don't have like our
Speaker 5: base yet. It's Mathma is still here. When is she going?
Speaker 5: We Mathma famously gives it like a great speech that
Speaker 5: kind of kicks off the rebellion. She's still in the Senate.
Speaker 5: I keep being like, get out, broken out, like if
Speaker 5: you feel that pressure. And for that reason, I think
Speaker 5: it's working and I'm okay with it, but we need
Speaker 5: some action. I'm ready to get into it. Those are
Speaker 5: my thoughts, Aboo, what do you think?
Speaker 3: I also loved the setup episodes. The show continues to
Speaker 3: get better and better for me. I was really really
Speaker 3: into the slow burned spycraft of at Home. I just
Speaker 3: love a cool guy being cool and spy crafty, and
Speaker 3: that was Cassie and Or for three episodes of this show,
Speaker 3: especially when he went to Gorman, when he was talking
Speaker 3: to the folks on Gorman, when Bell and Sinsa came
Speaker 3: in and did their like badass spycraft, like where the
Speaker 3: professional rebels you follow us? Can you follow orders? All
Speaker 3: of that was just so fun to watch. I loved it,
Speaker 3: and at first I was going to come in here
Speaker 3: and say that Gorman was my favorite part of these
Speaker 3: three episodes. But I was going to say that, but
Speaker 3: Joel's giving me a look because that would be wrong.
Speaker 4: I was locked in.
Speaker 3: Every time we cut back to Corrussant as well, So okay, honestly,
Speaker 3: I was having a blast in these episodes. I enjoyed
Speaker 3: the slow burn of it all. I understand folks who
Speaker 3: might want the story to start catapulting forward and come
Speaker 3: towards some sort of conclusion, but I think things are happening.
Speaker 3: Buildings are being built on Gorman, Rebellions are like festering
Speaker 3: on Gorman. Things are still happening, and I think we're
Speaker 3: headed toward I mean, we know we're headed toward Rogue one,
Speaker 3: but I think we're headed toward a fun conclusion to
Speaker 3: this show, and we just we just have to be
Speaker 3: along for the ride.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would also agree. I think you guys bring
Speaker 4: up some great points, but I think that people who
Speaker 4: are looking for something that isn't slow burn at this
Speaker 4: point are misunderstanding the point of this particular Star Wars story,
Speaker 4: because I think when you know all the great movies
Speaker 4: that Jason has brung up his letterbox list. When we're
Speaker 4: looking at those kind of stories, stories about spycraft, stories
Speaker 4: about rebellion, revolution, they are often about the slow moments
Speaker 4: of the personal interactions and how we get that, how
Speaker 4: does this one person's impact change the space and the
Speaker 4: nature of the story. And we are very much in
Speaker 4: that with Rogue One, and I think that was my
Speaker 4: favorite thing about these these episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about Gorman. I think that I agree
Speaker 2: with what everybody's saying. Of course, is a lot of
Speaker 2: this is in the beholder. I I react to the
Speaker 2: story in a lot of the same way that Hemingway,
Speaker 2: in the same way that Hemingway describe bankruptcy, which is
Speaker 2: it happens very slowly than all at once.
Speaker 1: To me, like the real.
Speaker 2: The drama of Rogue One isn't like big battles and
Speaker 2: fights as quote something happening. It's people coming to terms with, Oh,
Speaker 2: there's no easy way out of this. There's no cavalry coming,
Speaker 2: there's no Jedi Nights coming to save us. I have
Speaker 2: to pick up a gun do something, and I'm not
Speaker 2: that person. And so that is tremendously dramatic to me,
Speaker 2: and that, to me encapsulates what's.
Speaker 1: Going on in Gorman.
Speaker 2: I think, Aboo, you're absolutely correct, Like, it's so thrilling
Speaker 2: to see Cassian in full spy mode pretending to be
Speaker 2: this kind of swashed way.
Speaker 4: Also the full like visual change in his head. Yeah,
Speaker 4: because we haven't seen that. We haven't seen him in
Speaker 4: a costume before fashion.
Speaker 5: Guy from season one. Like season one, Cassian could not
Speaker 5: be another person. He was so intent on clinging to
Speaker 5: his idea for very obviously reasons. He'd been ripped from
Speaker 5: his homeland, like he'd been in prison. I forgot. I
Speaker 5: went back and watched him on season one, and I
Speaker 5: forgot that Cassian was in prisoned from like thirteen to sixteen. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and then he lived through a rebellion only to learn
Speaker 5: that they were fighting each other. At the end of it.
Speaker 5: They're like, we weren't fighting. It was just in fighting
Speaker 5: between ourselves. We all died. It was terrible. I think
Speaker 5: like this jump from in the first batch episodes, we
Speaker 5: get Cassie and is like the survivor, Like he's very
Speaker 5: much like, hey, guys should be collecting water. Yes, I
Speaker 5: will learn to fly this plane while it's in the air.
Speaker 5: It's fine. I've got it, like he's his tactical instincts
Speaker 5: are great. We get the mental spy here, like he
Speaker 5: he literally transforms before the conversation in the cafe where
Speaker 5: he was like.
Speaker 2: What are you doing, you moron? Don't come to her early?
Speaker 2: Like did you're lucky that I'm not that I am
Speaker 2: the person that you think I am, or because otherwise
Speaker 2: you like, get it together.
Speaker 1: You amateurs.
Speaker 3: Drawing attention.
Speaker 1: Get that like I.
Speaker 2: Saw them easily and the Empire will touch them easily
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, so.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: I think what was surprising to me was Cassian's uh
Speaker 2: Cassie basically reading the Gorman front to Filth and saying,
Speaker 2: you know what, you guys waited too long. You're not
Speaker 2: fucking ready. You're all gonna get medacre. This is a
Speaker 2: suicide mission, and I'm out. I was surprised, particularly there's
Speaker 2: that wonderful emotion connection that he has with the Bell
Speaker 2: Hop where you can tell like there's a lot of
Speaker 2: stuff going on below the surface, where Cassian is responding
Speaker 2: to this like terrible injustice that is happening. That energy
Speaker 2: that can go nowhere, but it needs to explode somehow,
Speaker 2: and he sees all of this and he just says,
Speaker 2: you know what, it's not professional enough for me. You
Speaker 2: guys aren't ready. And there's a debate between him and Luthen,
Speaker 2: where Luthen is like, one, they want to do it.
Speaker 2: Two doesn't it benefit the rebellion overall to shock the
Speaker 2: galaxy if in fact, the Gormans are wiped out or massacred,
Speaker 2: if something terrible happens to Gorman doesn't wouldn't that shake
Speaker 2: the galaxy and wake them up from their slumber?
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that help be the spark lights this whole thing?
Speaker 2: And then you have the Gore in front themselves, who
Speaker 2: I think would admit, One, we're not ready. Two we
Speaker 2: waited too long. But how can we sit here and
Speaker 2: do nothing at this point? Like isn't it more important
Speaker 2: to fight and maybe lose and have history say they
Speaker 2: were an honorable people who try, who saw something terrible happen.
Speaker 2: They didn't just go quietly. So let's talk about that that.
Speaker 1: How did you.
Speaker 2: React to Cassian turning down the cores and what is
Speaker 2: like what is the way forward? Because my sense was
Speaker 2: that even Cassian at this point doesn't see it clearly enough,
Speaker 2: he doesn't see that there is no easy off ramp
Speaker 2: two away out of this galactic crisis. He thinks, Oh,
Speaker 2: if we just had like the most professional rebels, the
Speaker 2: best tactically sound, strategically smart rebellion, that's how.
Speaker 3: We do this.
Speaker 2: When Luthen is like, no, we're gonna get tremendously bloodied
Speaker 2: and we're going to have to and the Gores meanwhile,
Speaker 2: they're saying, well, it's our life, it's our planet, you know,
Speaker 2: we can do what we want. Yeah, so what what
Speaker 2: is the way forward here? And how did you react
Speaker 2: to this kind of ideological struggle? I think on the
Speaker 2: first watch, you're really like cassieh my god, like, what
Speaker 2: are we doing here? Like you're supposed to be you're
Speaker 2: the rebel, Like you're the guy we're following to bat
Speaker 2: and you really feel for the leader who's like, you know,
Speaker 2: like you're not a revolutionary.
Speaker 5: And I'm not fucking impressed. Okay, I loved it. But
Speaker 5: then on the second watch, I think covertly the best
Speaker 5: moment it's actually when Kathy and Luthern meet at Luthen's
Speaker 5: shop and Kathy and storms in there like that's the
Speaker 5: crux of all of like this batch of three episodes.
Speaker 5: But Luthen has this great line where he's like, is
Speaker 5: this everything? Like you abandoning the entire plan everything.
Speaker 2: Because because I went and talked to Bix and you
Speaker 2: didn't know about it, and now you're mad, like.
Speaker 5: On the phone, it's everything, and you have drawn a
Speaker 5: line in the sand. And that is really the difference
Speaker 5: here is to Luthen, everything is everything. There really is
Speaker 5: no end point to or there's nothing that would stop
Speaker 5: him from trying to achieve this goal of liberation. He'll
Speaker 5: give his He's already said he's gonna give his life.
Speaker 5: We know, we've known that since the end of season one.
Speaker 5: Lutheran's gonna die. He's prepared for it mentally, even though
Speaker 5: it seems as if he's he's terrified of it happening,
Speaker 5: which is fair. You know, it's scary to die. But
Speaker 5: Cassian is an idealist, and Cassian, I think, believes so
Speaker 5: much in his ability to survive, and he survives by
Speaker 5: calculated movements that he doesn't see failure as a possibility
Speaker 5: because he won't entertain ideas that could possibly fail. And
Speaker 5: that's not everything that's really guarded and very safe I was.
Speaker 2: To add to that. Cassian talks a lot in these
Speaker 2: episodes about his luck, and I think, to your point,
Speaker 2: Cassian takes calculated risks, and I think he's just a
Speaker 2: guy who feels like I could walk away from the
Speaker 2: table now up. Well, my luck is very thin at
Speaker 2: this point, and I don't know when it will run out,
Speaker 2: and I have bis to go home to. Whereas to
Speaker 2: your point, Luthen is, like I decided long ago, I'm
Speaker 2: giving it, I'm burning it all to bring down the empire.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's nothing for Luthen to go home to at
Speaker 4: this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I also think Cassian. What's kind of heartbreaking
Speaker 3: about Cassian saying no to the Gorman Revolutionist that we
Speaker 3: saw him inspire a rebel in the first scene of
Speaker 3: the first episode. You know, we saw him talk to
Speaker 3: someone as a rebel leader, as someone who can inspire,
Speaker 3: that can get somebody to step in the circle and
Speaker 3: take that chance on a thing that they feel is right,
Speaker 3: even if they may die in the process. We don't
Speaker 3: know what happened to that woman in the first episode.
Speaker 3: Did she make it out, was their retribution?
Speaker 7: We have no.
Speaker 3: Idea Cassian's in a similar situation. Here. But I think
Speaker 3: we have to remember there has been a year gap.
Speaker 3: He has been on many missions through the course of
Speaker 3: that year. But I think this is a tough spot
Speaker 3: to be in because, as you said, Jason, he has
Speaker 3: Bix on one hand. On the other hand, there doesn't
Speaker 3: seem to be any sort of endgame in sight. There
Speaker 3: doesn't even seem to be any sort of like win
Speaker 3: in sight at the moment, like this is a pretty.
Speaker 1: For the for the Gormans, or for overall.
Speaker 6: For this.
Speaker 3: For all these operations he's been running for Luthan, Like
Speaker 3: where is it all going? Like this is sort of
Speaker 3: the dip of the rebellion, right, They're in this low
Speaker 3: before potentially something like Gorman blows up and the rebellion
Speaker 3: takes off. And so I think for Cassie and this
Speaker 3: is like, emotionally and as a rebel, a very low
Speaker 3: place to be in. And so to be sent to
Speaker 3: Gorman and see these like bright eyed idealists be like
Speaker 3: we're gonna stand up to the Empire, We're gonna go public,
Speaker 3: and we're gonna take him down. Like I think he's
Speaker 3: just really disheartened and jaded at this point. I think
Speaker 3: something has turned him into the rebel at the start
Speaker 3: has been dimmed, and we're seeing that in the set
Speaker 3: of episodes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you bring up a great point there, Boo,
Speaker 4: because I think it's that cynical nature. It's the transition
Speaker 4: that we're seeing from and Or in season one to
Speaker 4: and Or in Rogue one. And at the moment he
Speaker 4: is ironically the cynicism and emotional disconnect of Lutheran is
Speaker 4: rubbing off on him. But he has not gotten to
Speaker 4: that point yet where he's like, oh, well, if the
Speaker 4: whole of Gorman burns because it goes wrong, that will
Speaker 4: just be a great call to the Empire. He's not
Speaker 4: there yet, you know, He's he is still in a
Speaker 4: place where he has someone that he loves at home.
Speaker 4: But I think something really interesting about where we find
Speaker 4: and Or this episode is in that crosshairs of the
Speaker 4: rebellion being something that he cares about and is almost
Speaker 4: like his that he just has to do. And then
Speaker 4: obviously having Bis at home, which is the thing that
Speaker 4: drives him. And there's that great moment where you know,
Speaker 4: and Or so he doesn't want to do this. He's
Speaker 4: turning his nose up at the Gorms because they're not
Speaker 4: ready and they need to do it properly. But then
Speaker 4: there's that great moment where Big says, you know, you
Speaker 4: didn't kill that boy because we're war. You killed him
Speaker 4: because he saw my face.
Speaker 8: So's own personal kind of relationship to Bix and to
Speaker 8: what is driving him can still cause him to behave
Speaker 8: in ways that are abhorrent or ways that are violent
Speaker 8: and unnecessary, but he's not willing to just risk himself
Speaker 8: for the larger cause, and he wants.
Speaker 4: To do anything he can to prepare well. And that
Speaker 4: reminds you. I think that's really interesting totally.
Speaker 5: And it reminds me of the moment on the ship
Speaker 5: between Luthin and and Or where Andrew is like, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm thinking like a soldier, like think like a leader.
Speaker 1: Want to go home.
Speaker 4: They're like, are you now how long have you been?
Speaker 5: I follow the orders? We that's mission accomplished. A leader
Speaker 5: is you know, eighteen steps ahead, and you know, how
Speaker 5: do we get out? And it's just and to a
Speaker 5: boost earlier point like we've seen him be a leader,
Speaker 5: And I think it's really interesting for the show to
Speaker 5: take a step back and be like, yeah, sometimes you backslide,
Speaker 5: like sometimes Auliu's faith. Sometimes it's it's scary moving forward.
Speaker 5: And I think ending the first batch of episodes with
Speaker 5: and Or like really referring to Bix as his home
Speaker 5: and then seeing Bix's ability to hide whatever's going on
Speaker 5: with her from Andor is incredible, like Cassy and has
Speaker 5: no clue really how far down bixes and I like
Speaker 5: for him, it does seem like he's ready to sort
Speaker 5: of get out until we get to that final moment
Speaker 5: where Luthern Luthan's like, hey, like this is really your issue,
Speaker 5: Like Bix is your I was the problem because that's
Speaker 5: that's not quite what it is. But like you, guys,
Speaker 5: if you're going to be a team, if you are
Speaker 5: going to be acting in the world, you need to
Speaker 5: figure out what your partner's doing and get under control.
Speaker 5: Guess it's like it's up to you, and he's like,
Speaker 5: it's absolutely not Abu.
Speaker 4: No, this is like you please. Well I would also
Speaker 4: say as well, I think that there is just a
Speaker 4: messiness here with and Or that is easier for him
Speaker 4: to stay in. His personal messiness and his personal reasons
Speaker 4: for the rebellion are much easier for him to be
Speaker 4: driven by than taking the risk of losing an entire city,
Speaker 4: you know. I also think there's that element to it.
Speaker 4: It's not just about not wanting to do something wrong.
Speaker 4: But I don't know if he's ready to be the
Speaker 4: one to say, hey, go for it, guys.
Speaker 2: I think part of this is I think what you're
Speaker 2: talking about, Rosie is in part it arises from Cassian's
Speaker 2: role in the rebellion. He's not Luthan in the belly
Speaker 2: of the Beast, who never or I should say, who
Speaker 2: rarely goes to the front.
Speaker 1: He's in both worlds.
Speaker 2: So he's meeting these people, he's looking at them in
Speaker 2: the eye, he's shaking hands with them, he's connecting emotionally
Speaker 2: with the Bellhak.
Speaker 1: He's like doing all these things.
Speaker 2: So it's real to him, these people who are gonna
Speaker 2: die that, you know, like that's he's gonna watch them.
Speaker 2: He knows what the cost is going to be because
Speaker 2: he's been on both sides of it.
Speaker 5: He's seen the imperial machine.
Speaker 2: He's seen the kind of hard ware they have, the
Speaker 2: kind of force they can bring to bear on these
Speaker 2: regular people who are fucking linen weavers, who are like,
Speaker 2: I want to do something, yea. Luthan has the benefit
Speaker 2: of distance. He can sit back and say politically, looking
Speaker 2: at the board, this helps us, so we need to
Speaker 2: do it. And I think part of the tension between
Speaker 2: the two is that is that Caasian has to interact
Speaker 2: with these he knows we're gonna die. And that's why,
Speaker 2: you know, what's the Luthan giving Bis and cassion the
Speaker 2: the revenge mission on the Imperial Doctor.
Speaker 1: Is like it's almost like a coach.
Speaker 2: Of a sports team, like criticize and criticize and criticize
Speaker 2: and criticizing a player and then being like, now I'm
Speaker 2: going to give you the ball, go ahead. And it's
Speaker 2: it's Luthan's way of saying, I see what's happening with you, guys.
Speaker 2: I see how much you're hurting and how much you've
Speaker 2: been traumatized by all of this and how hard everything is.
Speaker 2: Here's one for you. This doesn't advance really our political
Speaker 2: goals that much. I guess it does because you're stopping
Speaker 2: this torture technology from going wider into the into the
Speaker 2: Imperial regime.
Speaker 1: But this is really.
Speaker 2: One for them personally. Oh yeah, And that's so I
Speaker 2: found that very interesting that he's like, here's one, here's
Speaker 2: a risk I'm willing to take so that you guys can.
Speaker 1: Feel better about what you're doing. Mm hmm, go kill
Speaker 1: that guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think there's an interesting conversation to be
Speaker 3: had with the way Luthen then also operates with Vell
Speaker 3: and Sinta and keeping them apart for a year, And
Speaker 3: it makes me wonder how intentional that is and seeing
Speaker 3: that like when they are together they're less effective. Is
Speaker 3: he doing some sort of pressure use their love as
Speaker 3: a pressure cooker to make them more effective. I think
Speaker 3: Luthan is playing these two couples in different and similar
Speaker 3: ways in order to achieve Is it like, like you're saying,
Speaker 3: Jason like a coach, he is coaching these like subordinates, uh,
Speaker 3: towards his his own larger goals, but one.
Speaker 1: Only one would only need to look at Will.
Speaker 2: If kind of romance in the field is affecting affecting
Speaker 2: your ability?
Speaker 9: Vision was so upset with Will, But I'm actually I'm
Speaker 9: glad we I'm glad we talked about Will because I
Speaker 9: actually think some of the most affecting stuff this episode
Speaker 9: is the stuff with Will and Saw.
Speaker 5: So after we come up break Oh, yes, take.
Speaker 4: Joel, Let's take a break and then we'll come back and.
Speaker 10: Talk about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're back Joel and Aboo, how did the
Speaker 4: kind of saw origin story and the Will and Saw moments, Like,
Speaker 4: what did that kind of say to you about where
Speaker 4: the rebellion is at and the different sides of the
Speaker 4: rebellion that we kind of explore this episode.
Speaker 3: I think I'm just.
Speaker 5: I'm so over I was overwhelmed out the right word.
Speaker 5: I am so impressed. Seems Mundane invested me just in
Speaker 5: in the world that they've created and the ways they're
Speaker 5: exploring spycraft, right like Cereal's Cereal's a illusion to a
Speaker 5: good spy is so he is a good spy, but
Speaker 5: again blinded by love, completely unable to see that, like
Speaker 5: your image of what's happening is so limited. And then
Speaker 5: to sort of to go to Cinta, who we saw
Speaker 5: was she was a radical, like she didn't have time
Speaker 5: to look at her partner because she was like, I
Speaker 5: can't I literally can't take my eyes off the mission.
Speaker 5: I have to be observing this person. I know you're
Speaker 5: here and I can hear your hurting and I can't
Speaker 5: address that because I'm in the mission. Just totally radical
Speaker 5: and to see her sort of come back and the
Speaker 5: way like this is the first time. I think Vell
Speaker 5: was definitely the leader, but Cinta was always just so
Speaker 5: like agro and determined. Is so interesting to see her
Speaker 5: comeback wounded and watch a fell sort of fill up
Speaker 5: space and be like, no, that's my woman. We're not dealing.
Speaker 5: She's like, don't even worry. I'm gonna talk to the
Speaker 5: boss for you, like we're gonna get this figured out.
Speaker 5: And to see that ending, I just it kind of
Speaker 5: makes you wonder whether all of this is worth it.
Speaker 5: And again, we have the ability of knowing where everything's going,
Speaker 5: and so that gives us a lot of advantage as viewers.
Speaker 5: But I think if you had no idea shout out
Speaker 5: to people in twenty years, you get to watch this
Speaker 5: in whatever order they want to. We don't know where
Speaker 5: this leads. You wonder like, Okay, we lost one of
Speaker 5: our best at a time when she was making a
Speaker 5: turn into becoming something much more than she was before.
Speaker 5: She's not just a soldier, and now she's thinks she
Speaker 5: is doing the leadership, thinking of like long term, what
Speaker 5: are we gonna do? How do we ground ourselves? How
Speaker 5: do I be a full person? And still attack this mission,
Speaker 5: and we see it too with and or fully adopting
Speaker 5: like characters but also being concerned, like everybody is hurt.
Speaker 5: We get so many Achilles heels this episode. Everybody's hurting
Speaker 5: so deeply, and to this point there doesn't seem to
Speaker 5: be a completed plan in sight that you're like, man,
Speaker 5: I could I want to bail at this point when
Speaker 5: we listen. I think that is I would.
Speaker 1: Say that there is a plan at this point, but
Speaker 1: you don't.
Speaker 3: You're not gonna tell Santa.
Speaker 1: You're not gonna tell sent about it. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: tell about it.
Speaker 5: The existence of one without being able to run or
Speaker 5: see it, it might well not exist.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah to the people on the ground. Well,
Speaker 4: I think that's why the Will and Sore stuff is
Speaker 4: really great because Saul connects with Will on a much
Speaker 4: more straightforward level where he's basically just like I was
Speaker 4: raised to die and you have seen now that I
Speaker 4: will kill somebody if they are a traitor. But but
Speaker 4: if you join me, you can actually take an action
Speaker 4: that will instantly make you feel like you are part
Speaker 4: of something important and big. And that is a direct action,
Speaker 4: that's a violence that is being part of a crew
Speaker 4: who are on the kind of front lines in a
Speaker 4: way that Lutheran or even Synta and Vell and especially
Speaker 4: vel as like a you know, a fancy mon moth
Speaker 4: my cousin lady, they can't really understand. But Soul speaks
Speaker 4: to Will on this really real level, gives us this
Speaker 4: origin story in a way that we haven't really heard
Speaker 4: before about his ridium, uh you know, addiction that came
Speaker 4: from him basically meant to die from it, but then
Speaker 4: he found the strength in it. And I think that
Speaker 4: that speaks to how a lot of young people can
Speaker 4: be radicalized in these moments where like they don't feel
Speaker 4: like they know what the plan is, They don't know
Speaker 4: what their future is, they don't know what it holds.
Speaker 4: They don't know what they get to have, like Will
Speaker 4: getting to have does he get to live on big
Speaker 4: wheat and have a beautiful girlfriend or is that a
Speaker 4: danger to the rebellion. He doesn't really know where he
Speaker 4: stands or what part of his of the rebellion is his.
Speaker 4: And I think that's the way that Sauw connects with
Speaker 4: him there, Like I think that that is a really
Speaker 4: interesting kind of more direct in.
Speaker 3: It is well Saw's sales pitch is very simple compared
Speaker 3: to someone like Luthen. Like Luthern or Bell might approach
Speaker 3: you and be like, here's the five D chess game
Speaker 3: we're playing.
Speaker 1: Are you in?
Speaker 3: And Saw hands you a hammer and says hammer, nail,
Speaker 3: hit it exactly, you know, And those are two very
Speaker 3: different sales pitches for effectively the same rebellion.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and if you think about the way, you know,
Speaker 5: we were sort of talking, I was contemplating, like, let's
Speaker 5: compare like Saw and Will's like emergence into the rebellion,
Speaker 5: and jaes to me the salient point of like, yeah,
Speaker 5: everybody's kind of in the same boat, Like they lost
Speaker 5: to a lot of people. They're hurting, they're trying to
Speaker 5: fight back. I think what I found really interesting in
Speaker 5: this moment is like Saw compares his or or the
Speaker 5: release that doing the drugs he's taking to being able
Speaker 5: to be with his sister. If you're not like a clone.
Speaker 5: Wars fans start that's where he first appeared. He had
Speaker 5: a sister named Stela, and so it comes to help
Speaker 5: him like navigate the warfront. He thinks he's going to
Speaker 5: sacrifice himself. His sister actually ends up dying, and it's
Speaker 5: the only time we've heard in all of the Saw
Speaker 5: reappearances about Stela, and it's not even to hear her name,
Speaker 5: but just say she's my sister and she loves me.
Speaker 5: And he can only say this high as hell to
Speaker 5: a kid who's practically a stranger. I think Saw as
Speaker 5: the guy on the front who's like already half mad
Speaker 5: and falling apart, but still so strong in his conviction
Speaker 5: that he makes significant changes for the rebellion is again,
Speaker 5: you just do get to see all sides of it
Speaker 5: in this show, and it just makes everything that comes
Speaker 5: after so much more right.
Speaker 2: What is hard to gain sight of is the fact
Speaker 2: that it's three bby four bb wife five bby. It
Speaker 2: is not clear to the vast majority of people in
Speaker 2: the galaxy that won the empire is bad. And two,
Speaker 2: if the empire is bad, there is not a political
Speaker 2: solution to the empire being bad. Maybe the maybe the empire,
Speaker 2: Maybe the emperor decides, you know what, let's bring some
Speaker 2: aspects of the republic back, or maybe there's a maybe
Speaker 2: there's a way to do this peacefully. Right, And I
Speaker 2: think that part of the madness of Saw is he
Speaker 2: might literally be the first person, the first group of
Speaker 2: people around him to say this is there's no easy
Speaker 2: way out of this. There's no political solution. There's only
Speaker 2: you can only react violently to this injustice, and that's
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. And I think part of
Speaker 2: what's driven him this crazy is the fact that like
Speaker 2: he was out there alone on this, on the edge
Speaker 2: of this for the longest time, and even now at
Speaker 2: three bby three years for the Battle of Yavn and
Speaker 2: the rebellion just kind of beginning to call us. You know,
Speaker 2: most people, even in the rebellion, don't probably are thinking,
Speaker 2: maybe there's a way to force the emperor to the table,
Speaker 2: right and maybe there's if you know, like do.
Speaker 4: You get in their saws not coming with us, Like
Speaker 4: they've made that decision already, and he knows that, he
Speaker 4: always knows he's always going to be on the outs.
Speaker 4: He's always going to be on the outside. But it's
Speaker 4: kind of ironic because then if we skip forward to
Speaker 4: a new hope, you know, the way that Luke and
Speaker 4: Leah and hand deal with the rebellion is through violence,
Speaker 4: and what is essentially, I mean, deal with the empire
Speaker 4: is through violence, And what is essentially, you know, if
Speaker 4: the Proud the time was talking about it would be terrorism.
Speaker 4: And they actually take on a lot of Saws kind
Speaker 4: of ways that he works, but he will never get
Speaker 4: the credit.
Speaker 5: We can even want to revenge of the city when
Speaker 5: Padme is I forget who she's talking to you, but
Speaker 5: she's like, hey, I don't think the Senate that we
Speaker 5: work for exists anymore. This thing we believe in no
Speaker 5: longer exists, and so you kind of again, you're sort
Speaker 5: of left the feeling of like Saw's reaction is a
Speaker 5: rational one, which is just so, but it is.
Speaker 2: Rational, and I think that's what's so. What I one
Speaker 2: of the things I love about this show is seeing
Speaker 2: how all these disparate pieces of the rebellion are working together.
Speaker 2: You have Saw, who is taking action, was taking action
Speaker 2: before anybody else and is a necessary agitator and first
Speaker 2: like frontline actor to do the most dangerous, crazy suicide
Speaker 2: quasi suicidal shit that the rebellion needs at this point.
Speaker 2: Then you have Cassian, who like floats between these kind
Speaker 2: of front line and under the water kind of world.
Speaker 2: You have Luthan who lives in the belly of the
Speaker 2: beast and is like organizing all of this but can't
Speaker 2: tell anybody. And then I think, crucially you have Man Mathma,
Speaker 2: who I think is probably one of these people who
Speaker 2: at this point still thinks there's got to be a
Speaker 2: political solution to this. There's got to be a speech
Speaker 2: that I can make that why, there's got to be
Speaker 2: a vote that There's got to be a way that
Speaker 2: I can corral.
Speaker 5: Vote people here to make yeah, that.
Speaker 2: We can claw back some of this power and is
Speaker 2: and her awakening to like oh fuck, there isn't is fascinating.
Speaker 2: And then there's Luthan's relationship to Man. You know, Luthan
Speaker 2: I think is the only one at this point who
Speaker 2: understands we're going to war. But I need Mon because
Speaker 2: I can't put Sagerera on television and have him make
Speaker 2: a fucking speech to the galaxy right.
Speaker 5: To the ground. I am sending every citizen of the
Speaker 5: galaxy of that of Tito.
Speaker 4: You know, a word in you know, you're saying some
Speaker 4: really real ship. He's like, you know, and not for
Speaker 4: the saying, and everyone's watching in there like but I'm
Speaker 4: saying I can't do this song like please.
Speaker 2: So what do you think about about these various about
Speaker 2: these various tactics that each of these cells are are
Speaker 2: carrying out, the various directions they're taking, and how do
Speaker 2: you react to the way those things work together or
Speaker 2: don't Yeah a.
Speaker 4: Boo, give us your insight, because you pulled some really
Speaker 4: cool stuff out of these episodes about this.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I I do want to say, I
Speaker 3: think the politics conversation is really underscored in these episodes.
Speaker 3: With that montage of man trying to canvas votes to
Speaker 3: go against the po RD and just getting stonewalled constantly.
Speaker 3: One of the small all lines that really struck with me.
Speaker 3: As we've established this is just a sci fi fantasy
Speaker 3: show and has no bearing on real life from larger
Speaker 3: come on, but if I were to hypothetically connect it
Speaker 3: to larger events. She's speaking to that one senator walking
Speaker 3: down the hallway and talking about statistics. You know, the
Speaker 3: prime numbers are going up? Are we creating criminals? Are
Speaker 3: stopping them? And the senator's response is, well, number, schmumbers.
Speaker 3: They can all be manipulated. I believe what I feel,
Speaker 3: and that just that hit me hard because it's that's
Speaker 3: just like that's the Internet. You know, people just believe
Speaker 3: what they feel. On the Internet and numbers and truth
Speaker 3: and the elusiveness of truth as we all know, feels
Speaker 3: like so hard to grasp and like anyone who's been
Speaker 3: at a Thanksgiving dinner and tried to argue with an
Speaker 3: uncle about the facts of a thing and just gotten
Speaker 3: like emotional responses back. Well, I don't feel like that's true.
Speaker 3: I don't feel this, I don't all that. So I
Speaker 3: think the politics conversation is it's quite impactful in these
Speaker 3: episodes as well. And I thought the mond montage it
Speaker 3: was only there for like two minutes, but it really
Speaker 3: resonated with me. And again, hypothetically speaking, could have connected
Speaker 3: to reality if the show was about reality at all, Joel.
Speaker 5: I was gonna say the both and like Cassie and
Speaker 5: breaking down to the Gorman why their plan sucks, and
Speaker 5: then and then and then poor Santa and Velle coming
Speaker 5: in and being like, yeah, so that really does suck.
Speaker 5: They're like they were like teachers, where they're like, okay,
Speaker 5: so this part great, you pick the right location. I'm
Speaker 5: giving you six minutes, max, that's all. If you don't
Speaker 5: get everything, don't fucking worry about it. That's not what
Speaker 5: we're doing. This is like an opening statement like just
Speaker 5: calm down. I think really there's such I think, especially
Speaker 5: in like American filmmaking, there's such a very loud like
Speaker 5: when you rebel per earlier point, it's violence, it's it's
Speaker 5: immediate action. It's like you have to let people know
Speaker 5: they're wrong. And that's completely not what a rebellion is
Speaker 5: built on at all. Your politics, your morals, don't matter
Speaker 5: as much as your tactics and your ability to maneuver
Speaker 5: against your opponent. And I think highlighting that and showing
Speaker 5: how difficult those things, Like when we get to the
Speaker 5: Gorman massacre, which again is part of Legends, and we'll
Speaker 5: get to in a minute, I just think, like it
Speaker 5: may you understand what they're up against, and they set
Speaker 5: that up so well, and again it pays off in
Speaker 5: Rogue One, like the way this show just continues to
Speaker 5: pay off and build into this world we already know.
Speaker 5: It's so brilliant. I really feel for the folks suffering
Speaker 5: because I think I put in the group chat the
Speaker 5: you started too late. It's just so soul crushing. It's
Speaker 5: the most demorl thing because you can't fix, you can't
Speaker 5: go back in time. There's nothing you can do, and
Speaker 5: essentially to say your only way through is to suffer
Speaker 5: deeply because you started too late. It's just it's so impossible,
Speaker 5: it's so hard. I'm very concerned about our next few episodes.
Speaker 2: Let's let's flip to the other side and contrast some
Speaker 2: styles in UH in UH leadership between, you know, between
Speaker 2: Cyril and and Deirdre. I think, for me, I think
Speaker 2: they have very two, very unique styles in service of
Speaker 2: imperial fascism. I think Cyril is clearly an idealist. He
Speaker 2: really believes the empire is fucking great. And when people
Speaker 2: pop up on Gorman saying the Empire sucks, they're from
Speaker 2: somewhere else. They're coming in and they're trying to stir
Speaker 2: things up here, stir up emotions because everybody can see
Speaker 2: that the empire's great. And then you have Deirdre, who is
Speaker 2: just like I want to be hunting bad guys, like
Speaker 2: I don't even really want to be doing this. It's
Speaker 2: not even about career for her, because she's been told
Speaker 2: multiple times by party guys, this is great for your
Speaker 2: fucking career, and she's like, I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 1: That's not what I do. That's not what I do.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: I'm a hunter, and it's interesting to me to watch
Speaker 2: these two people delude themselves to various degrees about what
Speaker 2: the empire is really about. How did you respond to
Speaker 2: those two and they're absolutely perverse relationship?
Speaker 1: Sorry with you.
Speaker 3: Shouts to the one hour that Cyril got with his girlfriends.
Speaker 3: By the way, in.
Speaker 1: The dark, there's a lot of.
Speaker 4: Fanfit going on in the discord about what was going
Speaker 4: on in that. I'm glad we did not see it.
Speaker 1: Those two.
Speaker 4: I don't want to know about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to know what that good for him. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, I do want to say,
Speaker 3: as obviously evil as these two are, shouts to Cyril
Speaker 3: for doing a great job as a spy. I had
Speaker 3: so much fun watching him just be a bit of
Speaker 3: a drama queen. You know, are you searching my office?
Speaker 4: Why?
Speaker 5: Why?
Speaker 3: Why would there be a listening thing like device in
Speaker 3: my office? Just throwing up pretty good, pretty good? Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know that I could keep that up, and
Speaker 3: if I sp agents came into my office all of
Speaker 3: a sudden. Shots to him for doing that. But yes,
Speaker 3: I think Jason, you bring up such an interesting point
Speaker 3: because these two characters are really fun to watch because
Speaker 3: they are so diluted in their own visions. Cyril obviously
Speaker 3: a sent for his hot fascist girlfriend, but like he
Speaker 3: to yours, as you said, to some extent, he doesn't
Speaker 3: see a problem with the Empire, and in fact, like this,
Speaker 3: this stability, uh, these whatever standards he is working on
Speaker 3: at the Bureau are the standards to which the Empire
Speaker 3: should be run, and this is the status quota him
Speaker 3: is correct. So if if he were to be presented
Speaker 3: with an alternative at like just as you said, Jason,
Speaker 3: I think he would he would brush it off as like, oh,
Speaker 3: these are anomalies, this is not the norm. A normal
Speaker 3: person likes the Empire like I do, is a fan
Speaker 3: of the Empire. Ddre to me, I'm.
Speaker 1: A little more.
Speaker 3: I'm more. I'm curious about Dedra. I don't know that
Speaker 3: I've gotten enough backstory to truly understand what her loyalty
Speaker 3: to the Empire is. I understand her motivations to hunt
Speaker 3: down the bad guys and hunt down Cassian in particular,
Speaker 3: but I'm left with a bit of a question mark
Speaker 3: on her larger loyalties too.
Speaker 5: I have theories, Yeah, have theories. Okay, so we know
Speaker 5: Didre grew up in an imperial kinder center, so she's raised.
Speaker 5: I think what we're looking at between Cyril and Dieitre
Speaker 5: are two different types of indoctrination, right. I think Dedra
Speaker 5: understands that this is the structure in which the only
Speaker 5: structure that she understands. Right, she doesn't understand like a
Speaker 5: family structure. We don't see her. She'll have no girlfriends
Speaker 5: or nothing, and she's completely shocked by her like reaction
Speaker 5: to Cyril. This is so foreign to her. I don't
Speaker 5: think Dad's ever had a love interest before. She's been
Speaker 5: about the job and the mission. I think Cyril terrifies her.
Speaker 5: The feelings like the lights off, which is funny because
Speaker 5: she's like in such a commanding position and he's like
Speaker 5: only an hour and it's very like, oh, he's a scent.
Speaker 5: But I really think what you're seeing is Dandre's fear
Speaker 5: of like having to keep the secret from Cyril. I
Speaker 5: think Dadre really wants to tap into her humanity and
Speaker 5: has no idea how to do it. She's on autopilot
Speaker 5: and she doesn't listen to her bosses, be because I
Speaker 5: think the only she like success is the only like
Speaker 5: tangible thing she has. She understands like nobody in this
Speaker 5: corporate imperial system cares for her or about her as
Speaker 5: much as Cyril cares. Is that gonna stick around? Like
Speaker 5: this guy could easily get killed tomorrow. He's a wild card.
Speaker 5: He's not as smart as her. She's like, she can't
Speaker 5: yet fully gonna be there, and all she has is
Speaker 5: herself and this ability to show people this is what
Speaker 5: I'm good at. I think she's so locked into that.
Speaker 5: And he's terrifying to watch somebody who like, imagine she
Speaker 5: would just switch to the side of the rebels where
Speaker 5: she could be a human, Like she mean, the greatest
Speaker 5: asset ever. She's so she really cares at her job,
Speaker 5: and she has such an understanding of how the empire works.
Speaker 5: And then Cyril. Cyril has been begging for a chance
Speaker 5: to showcase what he can do. And he has a
Speaker 5: mother who may not show him any kind of respector love,
Speaker 5: but she loves the empire. She is like, listen, we
Speaker 5: eat good, live good, course, not is everything? You should
Speaker 5: have stayed here? Why would you ever wants every yea?
Speaker 5: And so he's like, Okay, how do I win my
Speaker 5: mother's love and respect? You're the only thing I want
Speaker 5: and like impress my super awesome girlfriend, which how is
Speaker 5: that even happening? A really great spy all like he's
Speaker 5: just the greatest day of his life. Is when they're like, hey,
Speaker 5: you can move on to the next step of your missions.
Speaker 5: And the fact that they see each other but not
Speaker 5: in such a way that they're able to like go
Speaker 5: of these things that are holding both of them back
Speaker 5: so much? Is do they are my favorite people to watch?
Speaker 5: Like I love these characters. You're like, you are dumb,
Speaker 5: but wow, like.
Speaker 4: I do, I do think as well. There's like interesting
Speaker 4: reflections between like these doesn't really need to keep Cyril
Speaker 4: out of the whole plan, you know, like she could
Speaker 4: just rather than being like, hey, you're just going there
Speaker 4: to like keep an eye on them or whatever and
Speaker 4: report back, there is a world where she could tell it.
Speaker 4: But I think this kind of speaks to the way
Speaker 4: that the rebellion as well, is in all these different small,
Speaker 4: compartmentalized spaces, so people can't ruin other people's plans. But
Speaker 4: Deirdre isn't really getting that as a rule from part
Speaker 4: of Gas, She's doing that to herself. She's like, I've
Speaker 4: got to keep this to myself because I need it
Speaker 4: to work, you know. And I think again the nature
Speaker 4: of how whatever side you're on this keeping secrets, this
Speaker 4: not being honest with the people that you choose to
Speaker 4: have in your life, there are like weird ramifications of that.
Speaker 4: And I think, in the case of Deirdre and Cyril,
Speaker 4: what's really funny to watch right now? I was like, actually,
Speaker 4: Cyril is very, very fucking good at this, which none
Speaker 4: of us saw coming. So how about you actually do
Speaker 4: let him in and maybe you two work together and
Speaker 4: this might work well.
Speaker 3: This oh sorry, go ahead up, Well we might be
Speaker 3: on the same track, Rosie. I wonder though, would that
Speaker 3: burst cereals bubble of the Empire, because this isn't just
Speaker 3: we're gonna take out the bad guys or take out
Speaker 3: the rebel or take out the anomalies. This plan is
Speaker 3: we're gonna take out innocence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna We're gonna.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think Deader can tell serial that
Speaker 3: and still have serial people.
Speaker 2: We're gonna mine this planet so that most of its
Speaker 2: cities are destroyed, like this is that's what we're doing.
Speaker 2: I will say, you know, uh, I think that there
Speaker 2: is an interesting like overall existential tension between the Empire
Speaker 2: and the rebellion that comes through in these relationships, and
Speaker 2: that on the side of the Empire there it is
Speaker 2: unquestionably more ordered, this centralized kind of structure, right, Like
Speaker 2: I think you could. I think there's a way to
Speaker 2: look at the Clone Wars and the Late Republic years
Speaker 2: and say objectively, listen, that was not working, Like we
Speaker 2: had devastating wars across the galaxy, Like it was crazy,
Speaker 2: it was not the the Emperor's key role in agitating
Speaker 2: a lot of that aside, Like it kind of wasn't working, right,
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people would.
Speaker 1: Respond to that. At the same time.
Speaker 2: In the Empire now, competency is not rewarded, is not
Speaker 2: It's dangerous, Like, yes, Cyril is good at this, but
Speaker 2: like him becoming too good at this is a threat
Speaker 2: to what Deirdre is trying to do. Deirdre being too
Speaker 2: good at this.
Speaker 1: Is a threat to what Partigas is trying to do.
Speaker 5: Part of Gas.
Speaker 1: Being too good at this is a threat.
Speaker 5: To what Critic is trying to do.
Speaker 2: Klinic meanwhile, is in this fucking power struggle with mav Tarkin.
Speaker 2: Both of them are trying to be best boy alongside
Speaker 2: Darth Vader to fucking the emperor. While you look at
Speaker 2: the rebellion and it's a mess. There's a lot of arguments,
Speaker 2: but I think the key thing there is one democracy.
Speaker 2: You have to just accept it. It's going to be
Speaker 2: mess here because there's gonna be disagreements, but hopefully, and
Speaker 2: what is kind of happening is competency. The cream is
Speaker 2: rising to the top of the rebellion, whereas on the
Speaker 2: imperial side, don't be too good. You know, there's a
Speaker 2: reason the stormtroopers miss all the time. There are people
Speaker 2: who kind of suck that will just follow orders and
Speaker 2: won't think too much about what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: Don't have too much ambition because that's a threat to
Speaker 2: this entire thing that we're trying to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you speak to something really true there
Speaker 4: as well, because in the rebellion they have a certain
Speaker 4: amount of leeway for people that they know on their
Speaker 4: own missions. Like we see this tension growing with and Ors.
Speaker 4: He's always off on his own mission. He's not telling
Speaker 4: bigs Lutheran's trying to pit them against each other. But
Speaker 4: it's and Or, So you kind of let him do
Speaker 4: his thing. The imperial side does not have that. You
Speaker 4: stay in your lane. You do what you do, and
Speaker 4: you better not do it in a way that makes
Speaker 4: other people look bad at the end of it all.
Speaker 4: And this is not to make a moral suggestion that
Speaker 4: it is to do with you know, doing the right thing.
Speaker 4: But I think that the thing that holds a rebellion
Speaker 4: together is there is a general understanding this is bad
Speaker 4: and we want it to get better. Whereas everyone on
Speaker 4: the imperial side has their own version of what they're
Speaker 4: looking for. Deirdre is always bringing up this idea of chaos.
Speaker 4: We bring order, this is chaos. The empire always leads
Speaker 4: on that. Like you said, with Cyril, I think that
Speaker 4: man legitimately thinks that empire is doing a great job,
Speaker 4: you know. But it's funny because then he is in
Speaker 4: these situations where and we all know, Like when we
Speaker 4: were recaving this, like I was honestly like getting you know,
Speaker 4: I was seeing Cyril's kind of empathy to the Gorms,
Speaker 4: and I was like, wait a minute, maybe he really
Speaker 4: does believe this, and he does think he can help
Speaker 4: them kind of find a path that is not their
Speaker 4: just complete eradication. So it is interesting, but I think
Speaker 4: it's to do with the rebels have a shared wish,
Speaker 4: which is how can we make this better? The empire
Speaker 4: is bad. Within the imperial side, it's just all people
Speaker 4: who have their own agendas trying to rise up the
Speaker 4: ranks to essentially gain power, which leads to you know,
Speaker 4: the sith and the rule of the two and who's
Speaker 4: at the top. So I think it's really well done.
Speaker 4: But getting to see it on this granular, day to day,
Speaker 4: almost like slice of life level, is why I think
Speaker 4: and Or is an impeccably made show and it's bringing
Speaker 4: something that is totally different than we've seen before.
Speaker 2: Well that's a great segue. Let's take a quick break
Speaker 2: and then welcome someone who does not think it's a
Speaker 2: great show to a podcast.
Speaker 1: To talk about why that mean. And we're back as always.
Speaker 2: It's a breath of fresh air to welcome notorious Rogue
Speaker 2: one hater super producer Aaron to critique Rogue one and
Speaker 2: Or season two and give us his thoughts on the
Speaker 2: series that we are all in agreement with. But it's
Speaker 2: always great to having a poison point of view, and
Speaker 2: so let's welcome erin to the show.
Speaker 1: Aaron your thoughts.
Speaker 11: I do feel like I'm a breath, a breath of
Speaker 11: fresh air for all of you.
Speaker 6: Is pumping out of those machines.
Speaker 11: My sister, I will say, I think this is a
Speaker 11: very good show. I do not think the show is
Speaker 11: untouchable in the way that I feel like I'm getting
Speaker 11: pushed back, specifically from a boo who's.
Speaker 1: Really I mean, I mean was like.
Speaker 3: And I was like, I'm gonna block you never text
Speaker 3: me again.
Speaker 1: All Right?
Speaker 11: My first question, what why have we made Bix a
Speaker 11: punching bag like bis last last batch is like the
Speaker 11: Imperial Officer attempts to actually assault her. Uh and that
Speaker 11: is not even addressed in this set. Like she's still
Speaker 11: dealing with the PTSD from the torture in season one.
Speaker 11: She's now a drug like we have this hints that
Speaker 11: she's addicted to some drug. We're concerned about it. It's
Speaker 11: just like everything is happening to her.
Speaker 3: I just want to say, Okay, the pylon began.
Speaker 7: I'm gonna say, first of all, I was gonna direct
Speaker 7: this to Joel because she had had the she had
Speaker 7: had the punching bag worry, but I think she changed
Speaker 7: on that.
Speaker 4: But actually, as you laid it out. I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 4: gonna give you the sad, real talk. Nobody's talking about it,
Speaker 4: nobody's dealing with it, because that's what it like when
Speaker 4: you get sexually assaulted. No one deals with it, no
Speaker 4: one talks about it. You deal with it by yourself,
Speaker 4: and then you go to coping mechanisms like being on
Speaker 4: drugs and just being very interior. And even though it
Speaker 4: is depressing, I do think it's very realistic. And now
Speaker 4: let me go to Joel, who was the original punching bag.
Speaker 4: Accusa has changed.
Speaker 5: I was concerned. I was concerned because we've seen Bix
Speaker 5: down for a long time. Like if you were to
Speaker 5: marathon this show, I think it's like the third set
Speaker 5: of episodes in the back half of season one, all
Speaker 5: the way to now where she has just been. It's
Speaker 5: been a struggled city for her, has been tortured and she's
Speaker 5: dealing with a lot. But here's what I think. One
Speaker 5: Tony g Man himself was like, Hey, women go through this.
Speaker 5: It's crazy if we talk about war and we don't
Speaker 5: explore sexual assault. It happens. It's about power, that is
Speaker 5: an abuse of power. It happens Okay. What I loved
Speaker 5: about this is like, oh this is this is just depression.
Speaker 5: I've been there. I know I've been here. But Cooley
Speaker 5: and TV messy house food everywhere, and then too, they
Speaker 5: showcase Bix's strength in the best possible ways. She can
Speaker 5: still read Luthan, a man almost no one can read.
Speaker 5: It's like her and Claiya, who can read Luthen clearly
Speaker 5: even in her And she's hiding this right, like, so
Speaker 5: this is a person who wants to be better or
Speaker 5: to appear better, but just really struggling. Like she she
Speaker 5: cleans the whole house before Hubby gets back. She's like, oh,
Speaker 5: you know, I knew you're gonna come back. I think
Speaker 5: that her arc of recovery is vital, and her getting
Speaker 5: her look back at the end made everything else worth it.
Speaker 5: But she was like, it's only gonna seem like for
Speaker 5: Hevers that this bitch is back and better than ever.
Speaker 5: She just had to kill this guy. I get it.
Speaker 5: I love that for her. I don't think she's a
Speaker 5: punching back. I think we saw a backslide from here.
Speaker 5: We would definitely need to pause and question things. I
Speaker 5: think she's got to go straightforward into please not death,
Speaker 5: but maybe death going forward. But for now, I'm happy
Speaker 5: with where she's at because she's she's back, baby.
Speaker 6: She's good.
Speaker 11: If four horrible things happened to her, that's too much.
Speaker 11: But these three and.
Speaker 2: Next question, next question, the next question, I would just say, like, what, Aaron, Uh,
Speaker 2: why do you feel that surviving is weak?
Speaker 11: I think it's not surviving is weak for her. I
Speaker 11: think it's that the show has piled everything on her
Speaker 11: and nothing on so many other characters.
Speaker 1: Okay, disagree, but let's move on.
Speaker 11: Next Curt discussion and a lot of bally who has
Speaker 11: been made about this being like the most expensive Star
Speaker 11: Wars project? Does this show need this high of a budget?
Speaker 11: Do I really need the cafe scene to be in
Speaker 11: the food court of Grand Central Station twice? I mean,
Speaker 11: the hotel is nice, Do we need the separate lobby
Speaker 11: and the room shots? Like, I'm worried. I'm worried if
Speaker 11: this budget is so high and it doesn't have the
Speaker 11: numbers they need, Disney will be disappointed and this will
Speaker 11: not look well for future Star Wars.
Speaker 2: The corporate the corporate comptroller has logged on, folks, Disney
Speaker 2: accountant has.
Speaker 6: Logged on for.
Speaker 4: Cricket on the shoulder.
Speaker 3: And incredible interview. First studiohead, you got the job?
Speaker 1: Aboo you we gonna say.
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, who the fuck cares? You
Speaker 3: can't put the money, bitch, this's got the money. Spend it, baby,
Speaker 3: spend the money. Who cares? If we're gonna get stories
Speaker 3: like this that look this good and are acted this
Speaker 3: well and written so beautifully, sure, I don't. I don't care.
Speaker 3: This is a multi gazillion dollar corporation. And if they
Speaker 3: can put out beautiful art like this and it costs
Speaker 3: a ton of money, great, I want.
Speaker 5: To add an epe just say, Aaron, I hear you.
Speaker 5: I can't thinking about the art. Okay, they don't find
Speaker 5: art a second time if it flops. But here's what
Speaker 5: I think. I think Disney has a firm understanding of
Speaker 5: how critically successful this was gonna be. Tony Giroy is
Speaker 5: a like media darling, like the media loves him. Plus
Speaker 5: he's stupid talented, and so when you invest in a
Speaker 5: property like this, I think what they're doing is two things. One,
Speaker 5: they're like, we can do adult stuff. And if you're
Speaker 5: an adult who loves Star Wars and has been ready
Speaker 5: to grow up with Star Wars. Trust us. We've got
Speaker 5: some good stuff for you, which is necessary and great.
Speaker 5: The second thing I think they do is I think
Speaker 5: they have set themselves up well for award season. Everybody
Speaker 5: loves an award and makes the board feel happy. We're
Speaker 5: getting recognition that's dope. And finally, Disney loves the park.
Speaker 5: And if we can find new planets that people love to.
Speaker 10: Money baby looks like their response to Universal Epic Universe,
Speaker 10: kind of helios celestial, like Deco nineteen twenties.
Speaker 4: It's it that's being mined. I don't know, but Joel,
Speaker 4: I think you make a good point, Aaron, next question.
Speaker 11: All right, yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I think
Speaker 11: the best setting for a theme park is a slow
Speaker 11: political espionage thriller.
Speaker 6: That's all right.
Speaker 11: The next question, moving on, how are all of you
Speaker 11: feeling about the time jump nature of these batches of episodes?
Speaker 6: I personally am not loving it.
Speaker 11: I it feels like the characters just get dropped into
Speaker 11: some new situation. So basically, we get seventy two hours
Speaker 11: of story and then we wait another eight thousand, six
Speaker 11: hundred and eighty eight hours and the story comes back
Speaker 11: to me.
Speaker 6: It seems a number storytelling.
Speaker 2: But let me, uh, let me, I think you must
Speaker 2: hate Star Wars episode four, the nineteen seventy seven smash Hit,
Speaker 2: which drops us cold into the aftermath of a battle
Speaker 2: that we did not see, that comes on the tale
Speaker 2: of a Clone war that we did not see, that
Speaker 2: we only get the Clone war blah blah blah blah
Speaker 2: blah and.
Speaker 1: The squirrel Like, this is it?
Speaker 2: Listen, everybody's mileers may vary, some people may not like it.
Speaker 2: I think this is Star Wars in miniature. This is
Speaker 2: what it is media res. It opens up in the
Speaker 2: middle of the action or after the action, sometimes as
Speaker 2: characters pick up the pieces. So for me, this is
Speaker 2: kind of an essential Star Wars structure, this kind of
Speaker 2: jumping and dropping into events where you're like, wait, what's happening.
Speaker 2: But of course, like, some people may not like it,
Speaker 2: and that's absolutely fine, But that's my reaction.
Speaker 5: Is this is a miniature.
Speaker 1: This is Star Wars adminiature.
Speaker 5: I for sure heard people share this sentiment and a
Speaker 5: lot of people were saying that they felt confused. They
Speaker 5: were like, well, wait, wait and it killed somebody who
Speaker 5: and and why?
Speaker 11: I think, what's Will doing on the planet. What saw
Speaker 11: in the first place, the Rhino.
Speaker 5: I just think the show that requires photos show and
Speaker 5: watched the show, I really pay attention to the dialogue.
Speaker 5: A lot is happening, but I think it it for
Speaker 5: this structure what it really does, because they were like,
Speaker 5: originally they were gonna do five seasons, and they were
Speaker 5: like Tony said, exactly, just way too long. I'm done,
Speaker 5: I'm tired. Let's just let's do it too uh So
Speaker 5: he set this up to push us straight into rogue one.
Speaker 5: To me, I love seeing the way how much people
Speaker 5: unravel or advance in the course of a year, how
Speaker 5: much has changed it almost and how much has stayed
Speaker 5: the same. You're getting like a really in depth looking
Speaker 5: like politics are slow as hell, Oh my god, like man,
Speaker 5: Mathma is crawling compared to one like and she's just like,
Speaker 5: so could you vote? Know it's in your best No, cool, cool, cool?
Speaker 5: You you down like, help me out here. And I
Speaker 5: think being able to see that contrasting juxtaposition while also
Speaker 5: building again Luthen being shaken from where we were in
Speaker 5: those last few episodes to hear you're like, oh it's
Speaker 5: getting bad, and that gives you a sense of time
Speaker 5: that is so specific. I just I think it's beautiful.
Speaker 5: I love a good structure. I think it's happening. I
Speaker 5: like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if anything, it sounds like you want more
Speaker 3: of this shows.
Speaker 12: Enough six hundred plus more hours of the show.
Speaker 4: I will also quickly say I think right now, in
Speaker 4: this moment, viewers are more primed for this than ever
Speaker 4: because this is essentially the same format as the recall trend.
Speaker 4: Like when you jump into screen five, you're meeting new
Speaker 4: characters who are living with the legacy of something that
Speaker 4: happened fifteen years ago. You don't really know how it
Speaker 4: impacts them. You don't really understand their lives, and as
Speaker 4: you go through you learn it. And I do think
Speaker 4: that the storytelling within this and the conceptual structure of hey,
Speaker 4: we trust the audience, it's a year later, how things changed,
Speaker 4: might be jarring by it. Also think it's interesting and
Speaker 4: I think it harks back to more of Tony Gilroy's
Speaker 4: like non big budget studio work and more in general,
Speaker 4: like in the cinema where you just dropped into twenty
Speaker 4: four hours of somebody's life, or you know, something like Run, Lola, Run,
Speaker 4: where it's like you're constantly reliving the same thing over
Speaker 4: and over again. I think the audience is ready for
Speaker 4: more experimental storytelling, and I do think that and Or
Speaker 4: has been honest about that being what season two is
Speaker 4: and has delivered in my opinion, though, I do think
Speaker 4: it's fair to say, like Joelle, you it was crunching
Speaker 4: five seasons into two. So if it doesn't work for you,
Speaker 4: doesn't work next question.
Speaker 11: Just like you on this one, just like Run, Lola Run.
Speaker 11: I feel like I'm living. I feel like I'm reliving
Speaker 11: this four v one over and over again. So I
Speaker 11: think this show has a lot of storylines going on
Speaker 11: at once. Some of them I love. I love the
Speaker 11: forged art with the listening device. I love Claya so
Speaker 11: much like my favorite character. I think this season so
Speaker 11: far she's literally getting her hands blood. But one of
Speaker 11: the things that really threw me was this arms interception
Speaker 11: where the guy from the town hall, who in episode
Speaker 11: four I felt like was really radical and wanted them
Speaker 11: to be doing more, suddenly shows up and they're like,
Speaker 11: get out of here, get out of here, and he doesn't.
Speaker 11: He won't leave, and that causes the shooting, which causes
Speaker 11: the killing, which causes the chaos and then that same
Speaker 11: guy is like, I'll carry her, I'll bring her to
Speaker 11: your transport.
Speaker 6: What happened there? I like, literally am confused.
Speaker 2: I feel like it was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: I mean, the whole point of the Gorman Front was this.
Speaker 2: You have civilians who have political disagreements within in domestic
Speaker 2: Gorman politics, right that existed, probably a conservative party and
Speaker 2: a more progressive party within what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: On top of that, you have the Empire coming in,
Speaker 2: pressing on those existing fissures, and this group of this
Speaker 2: community trying to come together to figure out how to
Speaker 2: address this. Yes, this guy who spoke was, you know,
Speaker 2: see like let's do something. At the same time, it's
Speaker 2: very clear that he was cut out of this mission.
Speaker 2: He was not involved in this. He was not read
Speaker 2: into this mission, and so when he wanders into it,
Speaker 2: he's like, wait, you guys are fucking doing some attack
Speaker 2: the empire shit without me. So he wants to be involved,
Speaker 2: but of course he shouldn't be because he doesn't know
Speaker 2: what we're doing, and him, you know, carrying the wounded
Speaker 2: at the end is just simply a reaction of the
Speaker 2: fact that we're They're all in this together, despite the
Speaker 2: fact that he wasn't involved in this. I think it
Speaker 2: was simply the fact that a mission was moving forward
Speaker 2: without him, despite the fact that he is one of
Speaker 2: these voices that has been agitating for action against the Empire.
Speaker 2: So I think it was simply that you know, this
Speaker 2: is the Gorman Front. Is just that it's a front
Speaker 2: composed of multiple groups stitched together. It's not one homogeneous
Speaker 2: mass that all believes the same thing and wants to
Speaker 2: do this same thing. So I think this was just
Speaker 2: this was those kind of schisms coming to the forefront
Speaker 2: at the worst possible time.
Speaker 1: That's how I read it.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Ann Wow, Thanks Saran, appreciate you.
Speaker 2: You don't need to play the Imperial March before he comes.
Speaker 1: He comes off of his.
Speaker 2: Shuttle at the guards.
Speaker 5: Smoke coming down the walk.
Speaker 6: Mondu Dun Dun.
Speaker 4: If anyone wants to draw some Aaron Fana, please please hell.
Speaker 2: This has been a fantastic conversation for those of you interested.
Speaker 2: I put together a letterbox list of films that I
Speaker 2: feel like are a great primer and influence.
Speaker 12: Perhaps two chapter Yes, Sly absolutely check out The Army
Speaker 12: of Shadows and The Sorrow and the Pity specifically if
Speaker 12: you want to see, like, uh, some historical based movies
Speaker 12: that I feel like are the start of the Pity
Speaker 12: is a documentary that I feel like directly tie into
Speaker 12: the stuff we see on Gorman.
Speaker 2: You can find that on any tw three r K
Speaker 2: on letterbox or just search my name. Coming up next
Speaker 2: on Extra Vision this Monday, we have thoughts on the
Speaker 2: new Marvel blockbuster, The Thunderbolts Asterisk. Then Tuesday, our reaction
Speaker 2: to the Last of Us episode four, and of course,
Speaker 2: despite Aaron's please, we are.
Speaker 5: Returning to the world.
Speaker 8: What's that right?
Speaker 5: That's it for this episode.
Speaker 1: Listening by.
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsi and Rosie
Speaker 2: Night and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Joe Alminique and Aaron Kletman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 4: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.
Speaker 2: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Speaker 4: Heidi our discord moderator