WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Outlawry

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, sitting in for Dave.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is a very special short stuff Chuck, because

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<v Speaker 1>Dave requested this topic so long ago that I don't

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<v Speaker 1>even remember when he did.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Every once in a while a colleague will drum

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<v Speaker 2>up the nerve to approach us very sheepishly with head bowed,

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<v Speaker 2>to say what do you guys think about this idea?

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<v Speaker 2>And Josh will wave them away and say it shall

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<v Speaker 2>be on the list in seven years time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, hey, or so right, give or take seven more years.

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<v Speaker 2>We shall do outlawry.

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<v Speaker 1>And we are finally. So this one's for you, Dave.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's a good idea too, because most people think

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<v Speaker 1>of outlaws as a specific you know, like.

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<v Speaker 2>Like a cat.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly. A lot of people think of Johnny Cash

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<v Speaker 1>when they think outlaw, don't.

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<v Speaker 2>They, Yeah, outlaw country music. It's a thing.

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<v Speaker 1>But this turns out to have been an actual legal standing, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that could be applied to people. That was not a

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<v Speaker 1>pleasant thing to have applied to you, and it basically

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<v Speaker 1>meant that, but you're on your own. It was applied

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<v Speaker 1>at least in a lot of cases to fugitives, but

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<v Speaker 1>like we think of fugitives today is like people who

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<v Speaker 1>the US Marshal Service goes and gets. Like we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about an Operation Flagship that kind of falls under the

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<v Speaker 1>same rubric, but this was a fugitive and that like

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<v Speaker 1>they were summoned to court, they decided not to come

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<v Speaker 1>to court and after a certain procedure they were declared outlaws,

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<v Speaker 1>and that that meant like the law no longer applies

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<v Speaker 1>to them, all the protections that are afforded to you

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<v Speaker 1>are gone. And it does seem a little harsh, I

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<v Speaker 1>have to say, for just failing to appear in court.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a long time ago though, so who

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<v Speaker 2>knows what was going on back then. Sure, mainly medieval

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<v Speaker 2>England is what we're talking about. But the earliest kind

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<v Speaker 2>of this outlaw status became a law in sixth century

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<v Speaker 2>Frankish law called the Lex Salica. This was under King

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<v Speaker 2>Clovis early five hundreds, So this is a long long

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<v Speaker 2>time ago, and this is basically like yet, if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't respond to a summons, then you're outside of the

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<v Speaker 2>King's protection. This kind of started the legal basis for that.

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<v Speaker 2>But medieval England is where it's sort of most known

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<v Speaker 2>if you were over the age of fourteen and you

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<v Speaker 2>were a man. If you were a woman, you were

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<v Speaker 2>said to be waived, even though it was basically the

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<v Speaker 2>same thing. But if you were over fourteen and you

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<v Speaker 2>were a male, you could be outlawed and basically say

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<v Speaker 2>like like you said, like hey, anything you do or

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<v Speaker 2>anything anyone does to you, rather like we're not even

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<v Speaker 2>going to prosecute him. Somebody could break into your house

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<v Speaker 2>and steal your stuff and you're an outlaw, so sorry

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<v Speaker 2>ts for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so like today, our conception of outlaw or

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<v Speaker 1>modern conceptions like say, applying to Johnny Cash like you said,

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<v Speaker 1>or Jesse James or even Robin Hood, they're not types

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<v Speaker 1>to show up to a legal summon, so they definitely

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<v Speaker 1>do kind of fall into that same category. But we

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<v Speaker 1>kind of have it backwards and that we think of

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<v Speaker 1>those people as like they chose a life of crime

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<v Speaker 1>outside the law right their outlaws, But in reality, with outlawry,

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<v Speaker 1>the law itself has withdrawn itself from you and left

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<v Speaker 1>you outside the law kind of in a really caddy turn.

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<v Speaker 1>The law is like, oh, you don't recognize my jurisdiction

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<v Speaker 1>over you're not going to come to court when we

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<v Speaker 1>ask you to. Well, then fine, I guess you don't

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<v Speaker 1>need my protections anymore either. Hence you're an outlaw exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And you mentioned a process, there was a problems. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't immediate, It was a pretty slow process even. But

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<v Speaker 2>what would happen is the sheriff of wherever you were

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<v Speaker 2>would locate these fugitives. They would do some investigating see

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<v Speaker 2>if they owned any property that they could get to

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<v Speaker 2>basically say like, hey, we've got your you know, your

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<v Speaker 2>stash of chickens. Come to court, maybe you'll get those

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<v Speaker 2>chickens back. If that never happens and they can't get

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<v Speaker 2>them to come to court or whatever, then the sheriff

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<v Speaker 2>has to sit through this five different times in court,

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<v Speaker 2>calling you know, the fugitive to come forward, and after

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<v Speaker 2>the fifth non appearance, then they hit the gavel or

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<v Speaker 2>drop the glove or whatever the heck they did back

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<v Speaker 2>then and said, you, sir, are an outlaw.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it was a big deal to be declared outlaws.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see, I say, we take our little break to

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<v Speaker 1>come back and talk about outlawry a little more. How

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<v Speaker 1>about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's do it. Shot shot.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So when you were declared an outlaw, essentially, the

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<v Speaker 1>way I saw it written was that it's uh, it

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<v Speaker 1>amounted to a conviction as well as an extinction of

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<v Speaker 1>civil rights. So there were different kinds of outlawry. Just

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<v Speaker 1>failing to appear in court seemed like outlaw light spelled

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<v Speaker 1>l I t E. But there was also major outlawry,

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<v Speaker 1>in which case you were really in trouble, uh, like

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<v Speaker 1>big felonies, treason, rebellion, like big deal stuff could have

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<v Speaker 1>you labeled a major outlaw. And again like if they

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<v Speaker 1>did find your cash of chickens, those were theirs. Now

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<v Speaker 1>they could take them any like real property, you had

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<v Speaker 1>anything that was yours, they could seize and keep. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's pretty standard stuff even still today. Like if you

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<v Speaker 1>get caught with suspected drug money, the sheriff just keeps

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<v Speaker 1>your money and says, prove it's not drug money. That's

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<v Speaker 1>not like completely out of the norm. The thing that

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<v Speaker 1>really makes outlawry very surprising to us today is anybody

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<v Speaker 1>could come and take your property, anybody could come and

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<v Speaker 1>beat you up and kill you. And because the law

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<v Speaker 1>no longer applied to you, there was no law that

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<v Speaker 1>was broken when they murdered you. They weren't breaking a law.

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<v Speaker 1>You had no protection any longer. And that's the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that makes it really kind of shocking as far as

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<v Speaker 1>like a legal formality is concerned to us today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and even if if someone you know, your neighbor

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<v Speaker 2>didn't come and rob your house or try and kill

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<v Speaker 2>you or something, if you had outlaw status, you were

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<v Speaker 2>definitely not a part of the community anymore. You were

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<v Speaker 2>totally ostracized and shunned. Sometimes it was just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the way that everyone shunned somebody, which is very quietly

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<v Speaker 2>and passive aggressively. Sometimes it was very much official though.

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<v Speaker 2>If they had an outlaw they captured, they could say like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to really ostracize you. We're going to send

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<v Speaker 2>you to Australia have fun over there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or America. Yeah, and you would end up being

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<v Speaker 1>an indentured servant. And one of the other things I

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<v Speaker 1>read about that that was kind of interesting, that really

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<v Speaker 1>drove the point home. It's not just like I'm an

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<v Speaker 1>indentured servant over here now I wish I wasn't. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe around your area you might have some sympathetic friends

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<v Speaker 1>that might hide you or bring you food out in

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<v Speaker 1>the woods or something like that. In America or Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>you probably knew no one, so you had no help whatsoever,

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<v Speaker 1>and you truly were ostracized. So that in and of

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<v Speaker 1>itself was a big deal. Another thing that could happen

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<v Speaker 1>to you too, is if the sheriff did catch up

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<v Speaker 1>with you, and like there was a very high chance

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<v Speaker 1>you were just killed on site, because you it was

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<v Speaker 1>a death sentence for you as well, Like they had

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<v Speaker 1>no obligation to bring you in. If they wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>just kill you and get over with it, the sheriff

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<v Speaker 1>could do that too.

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<v Speaker 2>You were so close to saying oz ostracized.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I walked right past that on purpose. Okay, I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't chuck because it's a good one. I'm glad you

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<v Speaker 1>pointed it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh. So this was, you know, usually like real outlaws,

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<v Speaker 2>like real criminals, even if it was something like not

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<v Speaker 2>appearing in court. You said, it was oftentimes a lot worse.

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<v Speaker 2>But it wasn't always that in some countries. I know,

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<v Speaker 2>we talked about it in our I think we had

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<v Speaker 2>a leprosy episode many years ago. Right. Yeah, in India,

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<v Speaker 2>if you had leprosy, you could be banned and ostracized

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<v Speaker 2>and essentially get something akin to an outlaw status by

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<v Speaker 2>being sent to leper colony where you had where you

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have the same rights as everyone else. I think

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<v Speaker 2>they call leprosy Hanson's disease, now, is that right? M Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but no one would know what we meant if we.

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<v Speaker 1>Just said that, so probably not a few people would,

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<v Speaker 1>and those people were very satisfied that you just said that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I knew the leper was not something that

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<v Speaker 2>people say anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>No, Yeah, but yeah, I can't remember who Hanson was.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we talked about them in the episode two.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that was a long time ago, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>a good episode. I haven't heard it in a while.

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<v Speaker 1>There were some ways to have your outlaws thats revoked.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them was just showing up the court. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a specific court you had to go to.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the King's Bench in London, so you had

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<v Speaker 1>to make your way to London and you basically pled

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<v Speaker 1>to have it removed. And I think that that was

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<v Speaker 1>part of the procedure because again, if you showed up

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<v Speaker 1>to the court that had called you in the first place,

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<v Speaker 1>you might be murdered, and that would be that Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so that was I think the initial part of the process,

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<v Speaker 1>and there does seem to be like a a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>generous amount of forgiveness for you know, lesser crimes I

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<v Speaker 1>think like that where you just hadn't shown up, especially

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<v Speaker 1>if you're like, I'm sorry my foot, I twisted my

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<v Speaker 1>ankle jogging and I just couldn't make it to court,

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<v Speaker 1>or you know, my stupid cousin was supposed to take

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<v Speaker 1>me but his cart broke down, that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>The court would probably take pity on you and remove

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<v Speaker 1>your outlaw status because now you were playing ball with them,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the whole point of them conferring you an outlaw,

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<v Speaker 1>is that you hadn't in the first place. What was

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<v Speaker 1>really shocking to me is that this same stuff could

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<v Speaker 1>be applied to somebody in a civil case, like somebody's

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<v Speaker 1>like this guy stole my chickens, I'm gonna sue you

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<v Speaker 1>and you didn't show up. You could also be considered

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<v Speaker 1>an outlaw for that too. That's just nuts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is remarkable to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>And it wasn't until eighteen seventy nine that England revoked

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<v Speaker 1>that part of their outlaw statute that it couldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>used in civil cases anymore. But as far as I know,

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<v Speaker 1>and I looked high and low for definitive proof of this,

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<v Speaker 1>but just from references I saw, it seems like there's

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<v Speaker 1>still outlaw books or outlaw statutes on the books for

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<v Speaker 1>criminal acts.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow. Yeah, let's get rid of.

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<v Speaker 1>Those, sir. Do it? You got anything else?

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<v Speaker 2>I got nothing else?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Dave, this was a great idea. Thanks for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Short Stuff Is that.

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