1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, sitting in for Dave. 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: And this is a very special short stuff Chuck, because 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Dave requested this topic so long ago that I don't 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: even remember when he did. 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Every once in a while a colleague will drum 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: up the nerve to approach us very sheepishly with head bowed, 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: to say what do you guys think about this idea? 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: And Josh will wave them away and say it shall 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: be on the list in seven years time. 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: Yes, hey, or so right, give or take seven more years. 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: We shall do outlawry. 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: And we are finally. So this one's for you, Dave. 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: And it's a good idea too, because most people think 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: of outlaws as a specific you know, like. 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: Like a cat. 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. A lot of people think of Johnny Cash 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: when they think outlaw, don't. 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: They, Yeah, outlaw country music. It's a thing. 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: But this turns out to have been an actual legal standing, Yes, 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: that could be applied to people. That was not a 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: pleasant thing to have applied to you, and it basically 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: meant that, but you're on your own. It was applied 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: at least in a lot of cases to fugitives, but 25 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: like we think of fugitives today is like people who 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: the US Marshal Service goes and gets. Like we talked 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: about an Operation Flagship that kind of falls under the 28 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: same rubric, but this was a fugitive and that like 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: they were summoned to court, they decided not to come 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: to court and after a certain procedure they were declared outlaws, 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: and that that meant like the law no longer applies 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: to them, all the protections that are afforded to you 33 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: are gone. And it does seem a little harsh, I 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: have to say, for just failing to appear in court. 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a long time ago though, so who 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: knows what was going on back then. Sure, mainly medieval 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 2: England is what we're talking about. But the earliest kind 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: of this outlaw status became a law in sixth century 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: Frankish law called the Lex Salica. This was under King 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: Clovis early five hundreds, So this is a long long 41 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: time ago, and this is basically like yet, if you 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: don't respond to a summons, then you're outside of the 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: King's protection. This kind of started the legal basis for that. 44 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: But medieval England is where it's sort of most known 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: if you were over the age of fourteen and you 46 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: were a man. If you were a woman, you were 47 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: said to be waived, even though it was basically the 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: same thing. But if you were over fourteen and you 49 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: were a male, you could be outlawed and basically say 50 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 2: like like you said, like hey, anything you do or 51 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: anything anyone does to you, rather like we're not even 52 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: going to prosecute him. Somebody could break into your house 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: and steal your stuff and you're an outlaw, so sorry 54 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: ts for you. 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so like today, our conception of outlaw or 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: modern conceptions like say, applying to Johnny Cash like you said, 57 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: or Jesse James or even Robin Hood, they're not types 58 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: to show up to a legal summon, so they definitely 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: do kind of fall into that same category. But we 60 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of have it backwards and that we think of 61 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: those people as like they chose a life of crime 62 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: outside the law right their outlaws, But in reality, with outlawry, 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: the law itself has withdrawn itself from you and left 64 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: you outside the law kind of in a really caddy turn. 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: The law is like, oh, you don't recognize my jurisdiction 66 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: over you're not going to come to court when we 67 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: ask you to. Well, then fine, I guess you don't 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: need my protections anymore either. Hence you're an outlaw exactly. 69 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: And you mentioned a process, there was a problems. It 70 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: wasn't immediate, It was a pretty slow process even. But 71 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: what would happen is the sheriff of wherever you were 72 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: would locate these fugitives. They would do some investigating see 73 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: if they owned any property that they could get to 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: basically say like, hey, we've got your you know, your 75 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: stash of chickens. Come to court, maybe you'll get those 76 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: chickens back. If that never happens and they can't get 77 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: them to come to court or whatever, then the sheriff 78 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: has to sit through this five different times in court, 79 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: calling you know, the fugitive to come forward, and after 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: the fifth non appearance, then they hit the gavel or 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: drop the glove or whatever the heck they did back 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: then and said, you, sir, are an outlaw. 83 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was a big deal to be declared outlaws. 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: We'll see, I say, we take our little break to 85 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: come back and talk about outlawry a little more. How 86 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: about that. 87 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: Let's do it. Shot shot. 88 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: Okay. So when you were declared an outlaw, essentially, the 89 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: way I saw it written was that it's uh, it 90 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: amounted to a conviction as well as an extinction of 91 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: civil rights. So there were different kinds of outlawry. Just 92 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: failing to appear in court seemed like outlaw light spelled 93 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: l I t E. But there was also major outlawry, 94 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: in which case you were really in trouble, uh, like 95 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: big felonies, treason, rebellion, like big deal stuff could have 96 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: you labeled a major outlaw. And again like if they 97 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: did find your cash of chickens, those were theirs. Now 98 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: they could take them any like real property, you had 99 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: anything that was yours, they could seize and keep. And 100 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: that's pretty standard stuff even still today. Like if you 101 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: get caught with suspected drug money, the sheriff just keeps 102 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: your money and says, prove it's not drug money. That's 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: not like completely out of the norm. The thing that 104 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: really makes outlawry very surprising to us today is anybody 105 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: could come and take your property, anybody could come and 106 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: beat you up and kill you. And because the law 107 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: no longer applied to you, there was no law that 108 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: was broken when they murdered you. They weren't breaking a law. 109 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: You had no protection any longer. And that's the thing 110 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: that makes it really kind of shocking as far as 111 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: like a legal formality is concerned to us today. 112 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if if someone you know, your neighbor 113 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 2: didn't come and rob your house or try and kill 114 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: you or something, if you had outlaw status, you were 115 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: definitely not a part of the community anymore. You were 116 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: totally ostracized and shunned. Sometimes it was just sort of 117 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: the way that everyone shunned somebody, which is very quietly 118 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: and passive aggressively. Sometimes it was very much official though. 119 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: If they had an outlaw they captured, they could say like, hey, 120 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: we're going to really ostracize you. We're going to send 121 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: you to Australia have fun over there. 122 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, or America. Yeah, and you would end up being 123 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: an indentured servant. And one of the other things I 124 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: read about that that was kind of interesting, that really 125 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: drove the point home. It's not just like I'm an 126 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: indentured servant over here now I wish I wasn't. Like, 127 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: maybe around your area you might have some sympathetic friends 128 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: that might hide you or bring you food out in 129 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: the woods or something like that. In America or Australia, 130 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: you probably knew no one, so you had no help whatsoever, 131 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: and you truly were ostracized. So that in and of 132 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: itself was a big deal. Another thing that could happen 133 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: to you too, is if the sheriff did catch up 134 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: with you, and like there was a very high chance 135 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: you were just killed on site, because you it was 136 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: a death sentence for you as well, Like they had 137 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: no obligation to bring you in. If they wanted to 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: just kill you and get over with it, the sheriff 139 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: could do that too. 140 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: You were so close to saying oz ostracized. 141 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: Oh, I walked right past that on purpose. Okay, I 142 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: didn't chuck because it's a good one. I'm glad you 143 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: pointed it out. 144 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: Uh. So this was, you know, usually like real outlaws, 145 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: like real criminals, even if it was something like not 146 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: appearing in court. You said, it was oftentimes a lot worse. 147 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: But it wasn't always that in some countries. I know, 148 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: we talked about it in our I think we had 149 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: a leprosy episode many years ago. Right. Yeah, in India, 150 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: if you had leprosy, you could be banned and ostracized 151 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: and essentially get something akin to an outlaw status by 152 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: being sent to leper colony where you had where you 153 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: didn't have the same rights as everyone else. I think 154 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: they call leprosy Hanson's disease, now, is that right? M Yeah, 155 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: but no one would know what we meant if we. 156 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: Just said that, so probably not a few people would, 157 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: and those people were very satisfied that you just said that. 158 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I knew the leper was not something that 159 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: people say anymore. 160 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, but yeah, I can't remember who Hanson was. 161 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: I think we talked about them in the episode two. 162 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was a long time ago, but it's 163 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: a good episode. I haven't heard it in a while. 164 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: There were some ways to have your outlaws thats revoked. 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: One of them was just showing up the court. Yeah, 166 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: there was a specific court you had to go to. 167 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: It was the King's Bench in London, so you had 168 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: to make your way to London and you basically pled 169 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: to have it removed. And I think that that was 170 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: part of the procedure because again, if you showed up 171 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: to the court that had called you in the first place, 172 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: you might be murdered, and that would be that Yeah, 173 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: so that was I think the initial part of the process, 174 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: and there does seem to be like a a pretty 175 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: generous amount of forgiveness for you know, lesser crimes I 176 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: think like that where you just hadn't shown up, especially 177 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: if you're like, I'm sorry my foot, I twisted my 178 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: ankle jogging and I just couldn't make it to court, 179 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: or you know, my stupid cousin was supposed to take 180 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: me but his cart broke down, that kind of thing. 181 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: The court would probably take pity on you and remove 182 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: your outlaw status because now you were playing ball with them, 183 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: which is the whole point of them conferring you an outlaw, 184 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: is that you hadn't in the first place. What was 185 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: really shocking to me is that this same stuff could 186 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: be applied to somebody in a civil case, like somebody's 187 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: like this guy stole my chickens, I'm gonna sue you 188 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: and you didn't show up. You could also be considered 189 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: an outlaw for that too. That's just nuts. 190 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is remarkable to hear. 191 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until eighteen seventy nine that England revoked 192 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: that part of their outlaw statute that it couldn't be 193 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: used in civil cases anymore. But as far as I know, 194 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: and I looked high and low for definitive proof of this, 195 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: but just from references I saw, it seems like there's 196 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: still outlaw books or outlaw statutes on the books for 197 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: criminal acts. 198 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, let's get rid of. 199 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: Those, sir. Do it? You got anything else? 200 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: I got nothing else? 201 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: Well, Dave, this was a great idea. Thanks for it. 202 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: Short Stuff Is that. 203 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know? Is a production of iHeartRadio. 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