1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: for a vault episode. This one originally aired on November. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: This was actually an episode about Thanksgiving food, which got 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: way weirder and more interesting than than you would expect. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: This one sounds exciting that I have no memory of it, um, 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: and then we just did it last week we talked 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: about holy gravy. Oh yes, yes, okay, I do remember 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: it now. Yes, the Holy Gravy discussion is pretty fun. Well, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: let's ladle it up and enjoy. Hello, listeners. This is Seth, 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: the audio producer for Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: is just a quick note to let you know that 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: in this episode Robert's microphone sounds a little different compared 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: with our normal episodes, but it's just a one time thing, 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: little glitch in the old technology during these COVID times. 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: But do not worry. We've cleaned it up as best 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: we can and should be still a very pleasant listening 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: experience and we'll be back to normal next week. Thank 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: you very much. Enjoy the show. Welcome to stot to 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio Hey, you 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe mccormickan. Today we're gonna be 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: talking about some American Thanksgiving food. Rob I've noticed that 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: over the past few years, every year you say something like, 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: this year we're going to lean into the holidays. But 26 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: we've been doing it a lot, and I think one 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm wondering about something psychological. Is it that you think 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: if we actually do content about the holidays on the show, 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: the Holidays, will we will get through them faster? Um? 30 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Maybe that's part of it. It does kind of extend 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: from my personal philosophy of like, you know, in the past, 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: I have seen Halloween as sort of the end of 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: the year, and then all this other stuff is just 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,839 Speaker 1: kind of added on and isn't as fun and maybe 35 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: it's more of a chore. And then I realized, well, 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: that's not getting me anywhere. You know. I don't want 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: to be a sad sack um, you know, or a 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: grump us holidays, be a happy sack. Yeah. So so 39 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: the idea, you know, lean into it, find find something 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: to enjoy about the holidays, find that the bits that 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: that work for me and celebrate those, and uh, yeah, 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: I think maybe part of it is like, yeah, if 43 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: you're into it, it's gonna it's gonna move a little faster. 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: It's gonna it's gonna move along. Uh you know. Uh 45 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think that's part of it. And uh 46 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: also occasionally we have advertisers who are saying who come 47 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: to us and say, hey, what are your holiday episodes 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: for this year? Could have one or two in the 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, in the sheath, but you you brought up 50 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: a topic that I actually thought was pretty interesting because 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: I'd never considered this at length before. And it's the 52 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: idea of the poultry wishbone. So so that's where we're 53 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: going to be starting today. I don't did you ever 54 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: actually do the thing as a kid where you take 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: out the turkey's wishbone and break it or was that 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: just something you saw on TV? We would do it 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: at some point or another, and it's not something I 58 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: remember doing every year. It's so not a tradition. I 59 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: continue I have continued on when I'm around cooked turkeys. 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: Uh So I don't have like a strong attachment to it, 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: but I do remember doing it. But I probably did 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: it because I saw it on TV. Yeah, I'd say 63 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: me too. Uh. We we figured at some point we 64 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: tried it at my house and I figured out I 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: don't remember the details, but I figured out intuitively how 66 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: to always get the bone to break in my favor, 67 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: and I definitely did. That's a real life hack there, 68 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: magical life hack, because yeah, it generally the idea is 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: you take this wishbone, this this little you or v 70 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: shate bone in the turn key. Um. You'll also, of 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: course find in a chicken. We'll get into all the 72 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: places you can find it here in a bit. But 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: the idea is what it's. It's you or be shaped. 74 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Two different people grab an end of it, and then 75 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: you bend, you break, and whoever gets the big part, 76 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,559 Speaker 1: whoever gets the the lion's share of the turkey bone, 77 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: gets to live. However, what they get, they get a 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: wish Is that the thing or it's a good luck 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: maybe that's what it's. What it's called a wishbone. I 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it's some kind of luck thunder dome. Yeah, 81 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: you get the good end of the bargain. It's not 82 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: clear exactly what the bargain is. Yeah, it's it's one 83 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: of these things that it seems pretty it is pretty 84 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: harmless because it's almost completely devoid of of any kind 85 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: of magical thinking. I've never encountered anyone who took the 86 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: wishbone seriously, like, yes, now I have a wish that 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: I may call upon, or oh wow, but this day 88 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: is gonna be great. The rest of the day is 89 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: gonna be wonderful because I got the big end of 90 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: the wishbone. But it has what feels like this visual 91 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: magic that has that has been passed down, like something 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: like the turkey itself. You know, it has been so 93 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: cooked and rendered it's almost unrecognizable anymore, but there is 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: a semblance of the original organism here, and I think 95 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of what we see with the wishbone. Yeah. 96 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: Oh maybe even in an evolutionary sense with some wishbones 97 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: and some types of birds or bird like organisms. But 98 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: what I was thinking about the wishbone is maybe the 99 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: tradition would would be more powerful if instead of saying 100 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: the winner gets something good, you say the loser, the 101 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: side of the one who gets the bad side of 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: the break gets something bad, like those email forwards that 103 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: would say, you know, like if you get the wrong 104 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: side of the wishbone, you will see a ghost face 105 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: in the bathroom mirror or something like that. Or how 106 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: about this one. If you get the short end of 107 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: the wishbone, you're the one who has to pick all 108 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: the meat off the turkey carcass for soups and sandwiches 109 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: the next day. If you get the short endo the wishbone, 110 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: you have to eat the turkey breasts that has been 111 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: cooked to a hundred and ninety degrees fahrenheit is as 112 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: dry as a pile of sawdust, and you don't get 113 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: any gravy to moisten it. Uh yeah. The The only 114 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: hope for those pieces is the is the turkey sounds 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: the next day where you can literally apply man AI's 116 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: to it. Oh yeah, yeah, rescues everything, though, I do 117 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about gravy later in the 118 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: episode and the role that gravy serves, because I think 119 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: one of the big functions of gravy, in addition to 120 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: just making the best of a pan that's got some 121 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: good fond on it, is rescuing utterly lifeless base foods. 122 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: All right, So yeah, we're gonna We're gonna start with wishbone. 123 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: We're gonna get into the turkey a little bit, and 124 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: then we'll finish off with the gravy. The gravy will 125 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: be necessary to go on top. Okay, So, but like biologically, 126 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: what is a wishbone? I've actually wondered this before. It 127 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: seems like it's in a weird place on a bird. 128 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: What what does it do? So, yeah, we're talking about 129 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: an actual bone. It is the fercula um or if 130 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: you're talking plural, ferkually, and it is a bone between 131 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: the neck and the breast. It's flexible, it stores energy 132 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: that's been released during the wing stroke. It's form via 133 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: the fusion of two clavicals. It's essential to flight, and 134 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: so we see it in all modern birds. Even the 135 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: flightless penguin has a fercula, though it's structurally a bit 136 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: different to accommodate flipper action rather than flying. So it's 137 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: sort of like um almost kind of like a spring 138 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: or a little structural thing within the breast that that 139 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: provide structural support when the breast muscles are powering back 140 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: and forth to move the wings. Yeah, I think that 141 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: would be a fair way to think about it. And 142 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: uh yeah, so it's it's just an essential part of 143 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: powered flights and modern and powered flight and modern birds, 144 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: or in the case of the Pengland powered swimming um. 145 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: The interesting thing, though, that is that even flightless terrestrial 146 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: ratites we discussed rattites on the show in the past, 147 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about things like ostriches, the emu um. These 148 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: are birds that no longer fly, but they retain vestigial 149 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: aspects of their wings, and you do find the remains 150 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: of a wishbone in there, although in these cases it 151 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: is almost entirely absent. Now that probably raises a question. 152 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: If you're listening to the show for you know, the 153 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: past year or so, you might remember our episodes on 154 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: the Moa. The Moa, of course, is this now extinct 155 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: flightless bird that was just simply amazing. You'll have to 156 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: go back and listen to those episodes for our full 157 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: argument on the wonder of the Moa. But one of 158 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: the many wonderful things about it is that it is 159 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: this giant rattype, this enormous flightless bird that not only 160 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: lost the use of its wings, but completely lost its 161 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: wings like it had no wings. It is a completely 162 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: two limbed land creature, unlike virtually anything else you could 163 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: think of what the snake is to the lizard, this 164 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: bird is to to the flying bird. Yes, So my 165 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: immediate question then, with MOA on the mind was how 166 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: about the MoMA is? Did the moa have, as far 167 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: as we know, have anything like a wishbone, like even 168 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: just the slimmest remnant of a wishbone. And I looked 169 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: around and in some of the sources we used for 170 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: the MOA episode, and I wasn't finding anything about it. 171 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: So I actually looked up a researcher who had worked 172 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: on some MOA stuff before, Dr Charlotte a Brassie of 173 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: Manchester Metropolitan University, and I exchanged a couple of emails 174 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: with them, just asking like, is there how about the moment? 175 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: Did the moa have a wishbone? And this is what 176 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: they told me quote. I don't think moa had fercularly 177 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: to speak of the different species of moa very a 178 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: bit in their shoulder region denornis. The really big ones 179 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: did have a vestigial clavical, which are are what eventually 180 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: fused together to form the fercula, but they are very 181 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: small and not fused packy ornis and megal electrics. Moa 182 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't even have of this digital clavical just totally accent Wow, 183 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: interesting by by bones. Yeah, so, uh, you know, obviously 184 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: there are exceptions to the rule then, but you look 185 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: at modern birds, uh, instant birds, and you're going to 186 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: find a wishbone in there. But that's interesting and it 187 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: makes me wonder since birds are the closest relatives of 188 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: the extinct non avian dinosaurs. Uh, did dinosaurs have a 189 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: have a fercula? Ever? Did that they have a wishbone 190 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: on a on a raptor or t rex or something. 191 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: It's interesting because, as it turns out, the wishbone has 192 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: an interesting place in our in the history of our 193 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: understanding of dinosaurs. So the seeming absence of the fercula 194 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: in dinosaurs was long held as a case against the 195 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: connection between dinosaurs and modern birds. And uh and and 196 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: we see this really even with the archaeopter x discovered 197 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, of which we have some 198 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: pretty impressive fossil evidence of a lot of these these dinosaurs. 199 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: Especially when you're going back to the early nineteen hundreds, 200 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: you're dealing with very incomplete fossil sets. You know, there 201 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: were a lot of gaps we had to fill in 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: and Therefore, when it comes to something like a wishbone 203 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: being there or not, you can say, well, maybe it 204 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: was and we just haven't found it yet. Um. But 205 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: with the with the archaeopter X, you know, some of 206 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: these are very complete looking fossil remains and they seem 207 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: to be lacking a wishbone. So Dlo's law of irreversibility 208 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: at the time held that things lost to evolution would 209 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: not come back, so admitt that the missing fercula and 210 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: dinosaurs could not lead to modern birds. Now we know 211 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: now that Dolo's law is incorrect, and the clavicles of 212 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: non avian dinosaurs serve as one of the key objections 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: to this idea. But as far as dinosaurs go, yeah, 214 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: that the key thing to drive home is dinosaurs did 215 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: have ferculate that they were simply missing from our early 216 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: fossil evidence in many of these creatures. Uh, And it's 217 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: and it's a small feature after all. Again, we have 218 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: to think about the fossil record, the missing pieces that 219 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: are just a part of uncovering the fossil evidence of 220 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: these ancient organisms. And as it turns out, the archaeopter 221 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: X itself um actually did have these kind of cartilage uh, 222 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: fercularly in their in their bodies. What the situation was 223 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: that these were these were young ones um young archaeopter 224 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: x in the fossils, and they didn't have fully ossified 225 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: fercularly yet and therefore, um it was softer, it was 226 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: easier to lose, and it took U V examinations to 227 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: pinpoint it in these well preserved fossil remains. Oh okay, 228 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: So the lack of fercule in some dinosaurs or dinosaur 229 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: bird relatives um could be due not just not actually 230 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: to what was present in the animal as it lived, 231 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: but to biases in what types of body parts are 232 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: preserved and how right. And then of course as time 233 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: went by, we just found more and more fossil evidence 234 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: for for the for many of these dinosaurs. So like 235 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: for now, for now we know that the t rex itself, 236 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: the mighty key Rex, had a fercula um. You know, 237 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: it's not You look at evidence as examples of it, 238 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: and it doesn't look like the wishbone as much. It's 239 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: a much more like a U shape that has been 240 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: almost completely straightened out at least is leased as far 241 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: as the way it's presented in a lot of these uh, 242 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: these fossil displays, but it is still a wishbone. I 243 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: think this is clear evidence that the tiny t rex 244 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: arms were actually wings and the t rex could fly. 245 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: Now now that you have everyone has a little bit 246 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: more respect for the role of the wishbone. Like no, 247 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: when if you're holding a wishbone today or this uh 248 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: holiday season, you know you're you're holding this thing that 249 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: is universal to all living birds, that it connects to 250 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: the age of the dinosaurs. But again, most of us 251 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: interact with this thing simply by plucking out of out 252 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: of the holiday carcass and then snapping in in half 253 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: with a friend so that you can engage in some 254 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: some lighthearted divination. I could point out. Another thing is 255 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: that sometimes chefs, when roasting a chicken will advocate removing 256 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: the wishbone prior to cooking because this makes it easier 257 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: to carve the breast of the bird in the end. 258 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: Like this is the thing I've seen videos for the 259 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: chef Thomas Keller recommends doing this. So you kind of 260 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: like stick your knife in and you rub it around 261 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: on the wishbone and then you pull it out with 262 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: your fingers. It looks kind of gross, but it makes 263 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: the breast makes you able to take the breast off 264 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: in one piece when you're done cooking. So this is 265 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: this is this is a this is a good point 266 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: to make because, yeah, we're about to get into discussions 267 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: of of how the wishbone was used and interpreted by 268 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: by ancient people's. And so if you're processing the carcass 269 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: of a of a chicken or some chicken like bird, uh, 270 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: it's going to be potentially something you take out early 271 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: right in order possibly process the carcass and then if 272 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: you do take it out or what her phase in 273 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: the butchery that you do this, Uh, it is it 274 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: is something that look that has a distinctive shape again 275 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: you or v shape. It is going to have sort 276 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: of a symbolic quality to it, Uh that might be 277 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: lacking in other easily plucked pieces of the skeletal system. Sure. Yeah, 278 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: So I was looking around for some more information on 279 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: all of this, and I ran across a wonderful book 280 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: by by Janet uh limb Key that's L. E. M. 281 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: B k E. And the title of the book is 282 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: Chickens Their Natural and Unnatural History. And in this book 283 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: she writes a great deal just about chickens and their 284 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: history obviously, but she touches on on the wishbone of 285 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: the chicken and things involving the snapping of the wishbone, 286 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: et cetera. And she says that customs surrounding the wishbone 287 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: may be as old as the Etruscans in what is 288 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: now called Tuscany or or Umbria, and then the Romans arrived, 289 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: the custom passed on to them, and of course from 290 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: the Romans we we would see it entering into ultimately 291 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: into European and uh in British culture, and then that 292 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: would have been transplanted to the New World during the 293 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: age of of transatlantic colonization. So um. She points out 294 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: that that first of all, you have to put this, 295 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: you have to couch this this idea of of looking 296 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: at the wishbone at all in the history of bird 297 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: divination in general, and bird divination is interesting because it 298 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: can cover a broad category of divination, like not just 299 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: cutting open a bird to to poke around in it 300 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: and look at its organs or bones as a way 301 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: to understand the future, but also just observing birds in 302 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: the sky and using the flight patterns of birds as 303 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: a way to try and magically understand the patterns of 304 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, if you want a fuller dive on divination, 305 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: by the way, you might want to go back and 306 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: check out our older episode on the each ing which 307 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: uh which which. This has gotten me thinking about one 308 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: possibility we talked about in the episode. And obviously this 309 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: would be impossible to prove, but but an idea that 310 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: we play with there is that divination could actually prove 311 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: useful to people even though you can't get real hidden 312 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: knowledge that's in any way accurate, it could prove useful 313 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: to people just by introducing uh, motivations that spur action 314 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: and what would otherwise be a sort of paralyzing state 315 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: of of you know, just not knowing anything. Yeah, it's 316 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: like I'm I'm to understand that that modern sports games 317 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: well sometimes began with the flipping of a coin. You 318 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: need that random event in order to make it fair 319 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: that one team will have what might be an unfair 320 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: advantage by starting first, right um and so um, and 321 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: it gets going. It's gets you going and instead of 322 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: just being at a complete stand still. That's very good analogy. 323 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: And birds are a perfect thing to look for in 324 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: this case, right, because birds also invite a kind of 325 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 1: sacred understanding because birds can fly, they are able to 326 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: to bridge this gap between the Earth and the sky, 327 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: between the terrestrial world and the realm of clouds and 328 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: stars and gods and what have you. But that doesn't 329 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: mean it's just birds, of course. There's also a long 330 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: ancient tradition of examining the bodies of terrestrial creatures. Babylonian 331 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: texts pointed the examination of sheep in trails in acts 332 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: of divination, and the Romans to famously practice such readings 333 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: of in trails known as horestacy, especially concerning the livers 334 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: of sheep and poultry m HM. In Greece, it was 335 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: known as heptosco scopie or heptomancy to give it a 336 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, more of a Dungeons and Dragon's feel to it. 337 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: If you want to bust out some heptomancy in your 338 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: next game. Is that that's also looking at livers? I 339 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: think yeah. Now, the Etruscans considered chicken sacred and use 340 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: their bodies and acts of divination. They would apparently dry 341 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: the fercula and touching it would bring good luck, like 342 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: the fercula itself was kind of a good luck charm. Hmm. 343 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: I wonder if that has anything to do with the 344 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: idea of a horseshoe being a good luck charm. That 345 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: could could be totally unrelated. But but then again there 346 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: is there does seem to be a similarity between the 347 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: symbols right, similar shape. Now again, the Romans eventually adapted this, 348 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: adding the breakage tradition apparently, and and it appears to 349 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: a varied depending on who is using this tradition, whether 350 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: the big scoring, the big part of the wishbone, or 351 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 1: the small part was the good luck Like, who wins? 352 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: Is it the small or the big. It's kind of 353 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: like drawing straws or something. I don't know. You just 354 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: break it and then you calvin ball it out from there. Yeah. Now, 355 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: the Romans subsequently then brought the tradition to England, where 356 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: the particular bone was often known as the merry thought, 357 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: and then the English brought it to the New World. Now, 358 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: in terms of just thinking about these acts of divination 359 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: involving the bodies of the movements of animals, um, there's 360 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: more to consider here. I read about some of this 361 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: animals and divination by Peter Struck and he points out 362 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: that among the Greeks and the Romans, these were common 363 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: ways of attempting to understand what was happening and would 364 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: happen in the world around you. Uh. He writes that 365 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: there there wasn't anything esoteric about turning to the entrails 366 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: or the bones of an animal like this, It's just 367 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: what you did. Quote. The ancients understood that the universe 368 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: had certain inclinations built into it which were more or 369 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: less closely tied to the inclinations of the gods. So 370 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: maybe you could think about UM trying to do divination 371 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: based on the behavior or the bodies or parts of 372 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: animals as sort of like the modern thing where people 373 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: think that animals no first, when X is going to happen, 374 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, when there's going to be an earthquake or whatever, 375 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: you know, some kind of natural disaster. Yeah, I mean, 376 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: you could also look to the modern UM use of 377 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: biomimicry and bio mimetic the designs the idea that if 378 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: we're going to solve an engineering problem, let's look just 379 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: to see how evolution solved it first, see how the 380 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: bodies of animals or plants solve that particular design problem. Um. 381 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: I mean, these are more nuanced and scientifically accurate versions 382 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: of the same thing, like, I need to understand what's 383 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: happening in the world. Let me look to the physical 384 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: substance of the world for hints about its design. Right, 385 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: And when you have a fuzzier picture of the causes 386 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: and connections between all the different parts of nature, it 387 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: might seem more logical to try to infer x from 388 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: the you know, the bodies of animals or something. I mean, 389 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: you don't know, that's not how it works. Now, they'll struck. 390 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: In his writings here he points out that Ascalis, who 391 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: lived through four fifty six b c e UH, summoned 392 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: up much of this in the words of the titan 393 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: Prometheus in his play from Prometheus Bound, discussing how Prometheus 394 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: instructed humans and the quote difficult and murky art of 395 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: reading these inclinations uh in key places, such as in 396 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: the livers and thigh bones of birds. It does make 397 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: me wonder to what extent we see reverberations of these 398 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: ideas even in the modern scientific undertaking of of the 399 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: autopsy or the necropsy. Uh. You know, not the procedures themselves, 400 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: but the sort of the grandeur afforded them in the media. 401 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: You know, the idea of wise individuals poking around and 402 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: the bodies of not only like murder victims and whatnot, 403 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: but I think to the various sci fi scenes in 404 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: which the breaking down of an alien's body or the 405 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: disassembly of an artificial being such as a you know, 406 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: a droid or or or an android or a replicant 407 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: or something like that reveals the inclinations of the unknown, 408 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: that is interesting. Yes, So, I mean, obviously we would 409 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: say that topsies necropsy is performed in the real world 410 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: by competent professionals have an empirical basis, but the way 411 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: they appear in media, the person doing it often might 412 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: as well be a wizard. Yeah. Yeah, And I think 413 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: they're like the scene an Alien where they reassemble ash 414 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: and and and then manipulate his like they're really just 415 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: sort of goosing around with his various um uh android 416 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: in trails and he's covering in the milky stuff. Yeah yeah, 417 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: and they're able to, you know, to to to juice 418 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 1: him into getting information, to reveal hidden knowledge about the 419 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: predicament that they're facing. In a weird way, that scene 420 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: is almost a perfect parallel of King Saul's summoning up 421 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: the shade of the Prophet Samuel to to get advice 422 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: on how to proceed against an enemy. Yeah, so, I 423 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: don't know, would be interesting to hear what other people 424 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: think about that, because it is a scene you see 425 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: a lot again, if not not only in detective stories, 426 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: but just in any kind of sci fi tale in 427 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: which an alien or robot, utter or any kind of 428 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: artificial being is encountered and granted, from a scientific standpoint, 429 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: it would make sense to perform a necropsy on an 430 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: alien being if you wanted to understand how it works 431 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: on a biological level. Likewise, it makes sense from it 432 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: now on an engineering level that you might say, take 433 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: apart a captive battle droid to try and figure out 434 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: what it's programming was. But I can't. I can't help 435 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: but wonder if there is this kind of residual magical 436 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: interpretation of the scenario as well. Totally Now you're probably wondering, Okay, 437 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about turkeys here, where does the turkey enter 438 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: the picture? So again we're talking about we've been talking 439 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: about the chicken here. The chicken, of course, has has 440 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: Asian origins, but then comes to sort of rule the 441 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: world in its own way, slowly as it is it 442 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: just spreads from one people to the next becomes incredibly popular. Um, 443 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: that is it the sorry? Is it the case that 444 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: the ancestral chicken is probably from originally from like Southeast Asia? 445 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah? I believe so. Yes, the idea 446 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: that it's essential essentially this kind of jungly bird um 447 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: that we long ago realized had had value. Uh. And 448 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: of course this is how the chicken would would make 449 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: it to the America's But there was already a bird 450 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: in the America's and that was the turkey. Um. Specifically, 451 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: we were probably thinking here about Meligris gallopavo, which is 452 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: the domestic turkey. I love it by Ben Franklin's Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, 453 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: I mean it makes a strong case as always for 454 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: the being the bird of America. And in fact, it 455 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: is native to eastern and central North America, and it 456 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: was first domesticated by the Mayans in in In in 457 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: ancient Mexico, so naturally, surviving traditions for chicken wishbones would 458 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: easily translate to the turkeys when Westerners encountered this bird. Uh, 459 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: you know, here's here's something we know how to eat 460 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: a chicken. Well, here's a turkey. It's natural that you 461 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: would apply some of the same ideas to the rendering 462 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: of the boddy um and for for these people though 463 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: the original domesticators of the turkey, the bird was used 464 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: for food and materials, but also had a symbolic power 465 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: as well. So we we recently discussed the papal Voo 466 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: on the podcast before, so I looked at this to 467 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: see if there were specific mentions of the turkey, and 468 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: there there is. There are a couple of passages that 469 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: are pretty fantastic because they talk about someone running a 470 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: foul of of the gods, becoming cursed and and this 471 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: is what the curse looks like. Quote, even their own dogs, turkeys, tools, 472 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: and houses rise against them, taking vengeance for past mistreatment. 473 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: Only their descendants are the monkeys that inhabit the forest today. 474 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: And then their dogs and turkeys told them, you caused 475 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: us pain, you ate us, but now it is you 476 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: whom we shall eat. Now I am the master. Did 477 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: we actually say, I know it, talked about it in 478 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: a recent episode. But the popul Vu is a is 479 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: a text that contains a lot of ancient Mayan mythology, 480 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: specifically a lot of the beliefs and like myths of 481 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: the Kiche Mayan people. Yes. Yeah. Now, as for magical 482 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: uses of the turkey itself, the use of its bones 483 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: and Mayan and Aztepe practices, I didn't find. I didn't 484 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: find anything particularly that does. It doesn't mean it didn't exist, 485 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it isn't written about well. And it 486 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: also doesn't mean that it wasn't practiced and then just 487 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: sort of lost in the of course, you know, cultural 488 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: apocalypse that was the arrival of Westerners in the America's. 489 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: But I did find an excellent article titled the Oscillated 490 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: Turkey in Maya Thought, and this is by Maya specialist 491 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: Anna Louisa as Cuerdo y de la Cueva and Maria 492 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: Elena Vega Phila Lobos, and they discussed some of the 493 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: Maya traditions and beliefs concerning the turkey. Okay, I gotta 494 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: hear this. So first of all, they point out that 495 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: the Maya would have had access to domesticated turkeys imported 496 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: from Mexico as well as the more local wild oscillated turkey. Also, 497 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: turkeys were royal birds and not everyone had access to them. Uh, 498 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: they were seen as stand ins for messengers from the 499 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: gods quote a messenger of divine will, and they were 500 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: used or consumed on very special occasions. They were made 501 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: of sacrifices to ensure the harvest. And then there's this 502 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: additional interesting bit as well. There's this idea of I'm 503 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: not sure if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but why is 504 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: spirits They spell at w A H y I S. 505 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: And these would have been auxiliary spirits that live within 506 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: the body of the possessor, but then are controlled by 507 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: the possessor as well. It would be something you would 508 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: acquire through birth or through special petition throughout life. And 509 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: what would happen is during sleep, the possessor would expel 510 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: the wagists through their mouth to keep watch on them, 511 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: to protect them for enemies. Uh. And these would I 512 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: think be supernatural enemies or enemies, you know, supernatural enemies 513 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: summoned by uh, living enemies that could potentially hurt us 514 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: during quote the nocturnal and dream space. So you could 515 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: breathe the spirit out in the night and it would 516 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: keep watch over you. Well, what's the did the spirit 517 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: take the form of a turkey? What's the turkey? Can 518 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: at least some of the time, Yes, it would take 519 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: the form of a turkey, which which I think is 520 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: telling because the domestic turkey and domestic birds in general, 521 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it's especially in modern times, there is 522 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: a tendency to degrade them and see them as these 523 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: um just stupid um animals that have no no, you know, 524 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: mental existence of their own, that are just they're just 525 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: purely domesticated species, and we don't really acknowledge them as 526 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: as anything wondrous. And the idea here is that there 527 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: was a sense of wonder to the turkey. There was 528 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: a noble aspect of the turkey. The turkey was seen 529 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: as something especially this this wild variety of something that 530 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: that connects us to the spirit world, that connects us 531 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: to the gods, and therefore it would be a fitting 532 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: um animal for this spirit that is a part of 533 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: us to take its form. I think it may be 534 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: that just the word turkey sounds funny in English, so 535 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: it becomes the butt of a joke. Yeah. But but 536 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: for the Maya it was it was somewhat different that 537 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: the authors here also point out that there was at 538 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: least one Maya king that took on the title of 539 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: the turkey like that was his his title or nickname. 540 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: You know, it was an animal that was it was 541 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: perfectly suitable to be taken on as kind of the 542 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: the the the animal likeness of a ruler. Well, I mean, 543 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: turkeys can look quite beautiful. It's but there was this 544 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: one you were talking about that's mentioned in this article, 545 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: the oscillated turkey. I mean, god, there's a picture of 546 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: it um that that the authors here include, and it 547 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: looks so gorgeous. It's even gut these who has sort 548 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: of a blue shading on the skin of its head 549 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: with red lining around its eyes. And then it's even 550 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: got these strange kind of like moles or tumor looking 551 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: things all over its head, these little bulbs that are yellow, 552 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: and the colors altogether are are fabulous. Yeah, I mean 553 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: even you know, even a purely domesticated turkey that you 554 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: encounter nowadays. I mean, it is a fact. It's a 555 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: big creature, you know. I think if you really stop 556 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: and look at it and consider it, you can you 557 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: can you'll be impressed by it. But then also, of course, 558 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: we have wild turkeys, and I feel like encountering wild turkeys, 559 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: if you're fortunate enough to encounter them, it can be 560 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: quite Uh, it can be quite a moving experience. I've 561 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: even encountered them here in the the the the Atlanta area. 562 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: I encountered them at a cemetery once where they're out 563 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: walking among the tombstones, which seems perfect for, you know, 564 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: some sort of spirit being. But I also encountered one 565 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: in my backyard once, which was pretty fabulous because I 566 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: heard other birds. Now, yeah, the house I live in 567 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: now just in the backyard, you know, a very residential 568 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: type area, but the other birds were raising a ruckus 569 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, what's going on back there? Is 570 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: there a dog in my backyard or something? No, it 571 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: was a full blown wild turkey. And and these are 572 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: sizeable animals. Oh yeah, I mean I have definitely encountered 573 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: urban wild turkeys in in Tennessee. Sometimes they'll just wander 574 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: through neighborhoods in the city. Is pretty cool. So I 575 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: would in closing here, I would say, if you find 576 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: yourself this Thanksgiving at the table um considering the wishbone 577 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: of a turkey, that you would you would think first 578 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: of all, to the the magical, the divinational practices that 579 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: this bone is tied to. You know that you were 580 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: at least holding on to the vestigial remnants of of 581 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: ancient divination practices. And then on the other hand, you 582 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: the bird itself that you are consumed ming or present 583 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: or present for the consumption of that this too is 584 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: a creature with roots in the sacred I was trying 585 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: to think of an animal that's commonly eaten in America 586 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: that is treated with more reverence and respect to compare 587 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: it to, But then I couldn't think of anything. Maybe 588 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: it seems like modern American cuisine doesn't just doesn't really 589 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: honor the animal, does it now? I mean, I guess 590 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: you could make a case for the turkey being celebrated 591 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: more than many of the animals we can see. I'm 592 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: certainly more than the chicken. Because of course, what do 593 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: we do we we we include it as part of 594 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: in our iconography for Thanksgiving every year, like it is 595 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: a symbol of Thanksgiving. It is a symbol of a 596 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: of a great feast that one has. We have that, 597 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, ridiculous tradition with US president's pardoning turkeys. Um, 598 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what that's gonna happen 599 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: this year. I don't know how many turkeys are gonna 600 00:33:51,520 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: be pardoned this year. Um but but we'll see, Okay. 601 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: So I want to move on from turkey at this 602 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: point because if if you've had a turkey prepared in 603 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: the traditional American style, which is to um to cook 604 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: until the breast meat is so dry you could like 605 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: play basketball with it, you sit down and and it's 606 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: there on the plate, and what what's gonna say, what's 607 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: going to be the saving grace of this experience? Well, 608 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: obviously it's like you would want some kind of hot, fatty, wet, 609 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: highly flavored stuff to go on the turkey to sort 610 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: of revive it, to bring it back from the grave. 611 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: And it turns out that this is actually another centerpiece 612 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: of the American Thanksgiving tradition, which is the gravy. And 613 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: I so I want to talk about gravy for a bit, 614 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: but I also want to just bring your attention rob 615 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: to some ads I found for old like commercially sold 616 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: industrial gravy products, so like canned gravs and gravy mixes. 617 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: Um uh. One I found is it was in an 618 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: article that I'm going to talk about in a bit, 619 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: but it's for the Dirky Brown gravy mix. This is 620 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: a packet mix that you throw in with water. Uh, 621 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: and it says all sauce and gravy mixes are made 622 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: for convenience, but Dirkys is for dining. And the this 623 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: yeah calligraphy. Everyone should look this up. It's d u 624 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: r k eat um dirkeys is for dining and has it. 625 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of a snazzy looking advertisement, has 626 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: kind of a Madman mad men vibe to it. Yes, yes, 627 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: fancy people in suits. Clearly they're gonna be having some 628 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: Canadian club on the rocks or maybe Shiva's regal with this. 629 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: I love how there's a cup of coffee in the scene, 630 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: which I don't know. I never drink coffee with my 631 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: meals for the most part, But is it the idea? 632 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: It's like, all right, thanksgivings coming at you. You You got 633 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: at let's let's move this food. Let's let's supercharge the 634 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: digestive system. I think it's one of those things where 635 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: they tried to promote new uses for foods to sell 636 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: more of them in the mid century. So here it's 637 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: obviously saying, hey, you already you put cream in your coffee, 638 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: Just do gravy instead. But I found another ad. This 639 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: is for Franco American beef gravy and a can. It 640 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: says easy economical beef gravy burgers, and it's suggesting that 641 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: you have a piece of white bread and on top 642 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: of that it looks like just just a puck of 643 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: ground beef and then you spoon over or ladle over 644 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: about a gallon of this canned Franco American gravy. Uh. 645 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: And the copy on this set is really good too. 646 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: It says made from the juices of selected beef with 647 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: that genuine roasting pan flavor. Delicious served hot with any 648 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: meat and potato, dinner, on sandwiches, in stews, or added 649 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: to make your own gravy stres at chin it it 650 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: hyphenates out the word stretch um. And so several things 651 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: here that I like, the the use of the there's 652 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: like carefully chosen words made from the juices of selected beef. 653 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: And what is what work is the word selected doing? There? 654 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: I did? Did I guess too? Um? Set it apart 655 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: from random beef? Yeah, you know, made from the juices 656 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: of beef that was found somewhere. I had to say. 657 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: The photo on this one that went black and white 658 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: and all it looks oddly appetizing. I feel like my 659 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: family had some version of this when I was a kid, 660 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: where it would be the the beef patty on top 661 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 1: of the slice of bread with gravy on top, with 662 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: the peas on the side. I remember being fond. But 663 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: another one of these Franco American beef gravy ads I found, 664 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: the tagline is just smooth, brown, delicious, and I like 665 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: the idea that this actually does tie into some some 666 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: food science stuff. The word brown there suggests not just 667 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: a color, but a flavor. What flavor is it? It's 668 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: brown flavored, and that that actually does get to the 669 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: original heart of of real gravy. So I was trying 670 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: to think, how would a Martian describe gravy, and like 671 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: she she's making an encyclopedia of earth life, and I 672 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: think it would be something like gravy is a hot 673 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: emulsified sauce made by combining fat, starch and then some 674 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: glutamate flavored liquid, like a savory liquid thickened to the 675 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: rough consistency of heavy cream. I think that that that's 676 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: about it, um. But for the non cooks out there, 677 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: the traditional method of gravy preparation is actually great because 678 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: it is a sort of natural byproduct of roasting a 679 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: big piece of meat, which people often do for Thanksgiving 680 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: um because a gravy is usually based on the fond 681 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: left over on the bottom of the pan after you've 682 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: cooked meat via some dry heat method like roasting or 683 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: pan frying. So is the meat cooks, it releases liquids, 684 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,479 Speaker 1: It releases fats and juices, and usually the juices will 685 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: contain a mixture of proteins and carbohydrates sugars, and as 686 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: these juices are cooked on the bottom of a pan 687 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: under high heat, their water content evaporates and they undergo browning. 688 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: So if there are sugars present, they can caramelize, but 689 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: then the proteins and the carbohydrates can together undergo this 690 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: complex suite of chemical changes collectively known as the Myard reaction, 691 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: and the Myard reaction in particular is the reaction that's 692 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: responsible for the fact that browned food usually tastes good. 693 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: It creates this a lot of complex flavors. It's the 694 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: browning on the outside of bread when you toast bread. 695 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: It's the browning on the outside of meat. Uh, it's 696 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: in coffee, you know. It is that good roasty flavor 697 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: so to make a traditional gravy, after your roaster pan 698 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: fry a piece of meat, you'll have all this extremely 699 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: flavorful gunk stuck to the bottom of the pan, all 700 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: these browned juices. And from here the gravy process goes 701 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: to deglazing. So you have some kind of liquid. Usually 702 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: this is water or wine broth, maybe spirits uh, and 703 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: then you use the liquid as a solvent to scrape 704 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: up and dissolve all the brown gunk. And then you 705 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: usually add some form of fat and starch to thicken 706 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: the miss mixture. So this can be a rue like 707 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: butter or rendered fat from the pan, mixed with flour 708 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: or even corn starch. And then you whisk it all 709 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: together and you cook it until it's thick into the 710 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: consistency you want. And the thickening actually happens two different ways. 711 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: As you cook, the starch grains will swell with liquid 712 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: and burst, releasing carbohydrate molecules. They unravel they meshed together 713 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: with one another, and that thickens the sauce. But the 714 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: other method of reducing is just reducing by evaporation as 715 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: the sauce cooks. And I was interested in what brought 716 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: about the all of these like prepared gravy products, because again, 717 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: gravy is it's like a byproduct of cooking, right, Like 718 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: you've done the cooking and now you've got the basis 719 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: to make a gravy. How do you get from that 720 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: to the gravy comes in a pre prepared and okay 721 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: in or mixture like a powder mixture, how do we 722 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: get to dirkys is for dining. So I was reading 723 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: a little article in The Atlantic about this by Alexis Madrigal, 724 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: and this is about the history of industrial gravy products, 725 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: specifically powder mixes for gravy um. And it is interesting 726 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: to think about the development of instant food products as 727 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: a real sort of science and engineering challenge because I 728 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: know these products are often derided. I mean, we were 729 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: just making fun of them, but it is. It's it's 730 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: an interesting process that led to their development. Because you've 731 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: got something that is a natural product of some other 732 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: cooking process. You know what you want the final product 733 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: to look like, taste like, feel like. Uh, you know 734 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: what real gravy is, and you know what limitations you 735 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: have to work with. Maybe your way of getting there 736 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: has to be in a powdered packet or or cannibal 737 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: or something, and then you've got to use science to 738 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: try to get from here to there within your limitations. 739 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: And Madrigal argues that the history of dry mixes for 740 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: gravy really best understood in the context of dry mixes 741 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: for baking other baking products, which go further back in history. 742 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: So he mentioned that in eighteen eighty two, there's this 743 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: inventor named Philip Thorne who files a patent for a 744 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: just add water baking mix which incorporates flour and baking 745 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: powder as a leavening agent uh and the and also 746 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: dehydrated butter. But this did not immediately become a popular 747 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: product in America. The instant biscuit dope bis Quick entered 748 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: the market in nineteen thirty one, but it really wasn't 749 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: until after World War Two that instant baking mixes like 750 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: Betty Crocker cake Mix became very popular. Now, there's one 751 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: thing I will say about this article, which is that 752 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: it relays a story that I found very interesting but 753 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: started to doubt, and this led me down a rabbit trail. 754 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: But I think this rabbit trail is worthwhile because it 755 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: ties into things that people also sometimes make conservant Thanksgiving. 756 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: So there's this anecdote here that Magical shares about how 757 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,720 Speaker 1: the recipe design for packaged foods isn't just about taste 758 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: and convenience, it's also about the psychology of the cook. Uh. 759 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: If you've ever made cake cake mix from a box, Duncan, 760 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: Hinds or whatever, you probably know that there are usually 761 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: a couple of ingredients that you have to provide yourself. 762 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: So you know, the box will give you all the 763 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 1: dry ingredients, but then you have to combine it with water, 764 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: maybe oil, and a couple of eggs. Now, the story 765 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: goes that originally the Betty Crocker brand simply required water 766 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: and nothing else in their cake mix boxes, and that 767 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: these weren't selling very well, and the reasoning was that 768 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: the process just seemed too artificial, too impersonal, too industrial. 769 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,760 Speaker 1: Uh So, so, in one influential instance, General Mills changed 770 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: the cake mix recipe to require the home cook to 771 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: add their own eggs in addition to the water, and 772 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: so hey, suddenly you're not using, you know, just a 773 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 1: boxed product, you're actually baking. You added the eggs, you're 774 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: health And according to the industry lore, this recipe change 775 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: where suddenly, instead of having dried eggs in the mix already, 776 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: you had to add your own eggs. This recipe change 777 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: made the mix a hit. I even found an article 778 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: on Psychology Today that was retelling the story, framing it 779 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: as about guilt and authenticity. This was supposedly discovered through 780 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: research by the American consumer psychologist Earnest dicter Uh that 781 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: that home cooks of the nineteen fifties felt guilty serving 782 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,479 Speaker 1: these delicious cakes that were just so easy to make, 783 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,280 Speaker 1: and Dictor reasoned that adding the eggs made the process 784 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: slightly less convenient, and thus people felt better about serving 785 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: these cakes to guests. But it certainly makes a certain 786 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: amount of sense. You know, you would you're you're doing 787 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: something other than just following some simple directions and inting 788 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: out a can or a box of powder and adding milk. 789 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: You know that there is some element of actual baking 790 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: or food preparation to it that it makes you feel 791 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: useful and not just a uh, you just just to 792 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: somebody assembling something. Yeah, and I think there absolutely could 793 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: be something to the underlying psychology there. I mean, you know, 794 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,720 Speaker 1: people are full of all kinds of interesting psychological quirks 795 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 1: that drive their consumer decisions, and sometimes a product will 796 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,800 Speaker 1: sell for reasons other than just it's you know, pure 797 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: value in in whatever objective sense you you wanna classify that. 798 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: But the fact that this is such a great historical anecdote, 799 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: the fact that it's so perfectly ted talkie kind of 800 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: made the sleeping dragons of the BS detection go off 801 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,760 Speaker 1: in my mind. So I decided to check, and wouldn't 802 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: you know it, Snopes actually has an article about this 803 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: very story. It's by the founder, one of the founders, 804 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: David Nicholson, and my hunch was correct. They ruled this 805 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: story is false. And the reason they rule it as 806 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 1: false is that while this is based on a historical reality, Yes, 807 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: there were these recipe changes to adding fresh eggs. Yes, 808 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: around the same time there was increasing use of box 809 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: cake mixes. But just saying, uh, the psychological insight from 810 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: ernest dict that said you have to add the egg 811 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: yourself at home, that is what made the box cake 812 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: mix a success. That massively over oversimplifies things. Uh. For example, 813 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: it overstates the novelty of the recipe change. There'd been 814 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: this long running debate in the industry over the trade 815 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,280 Speaker 1: offs of requiring fresh eggs at preparation versus using powdered 816 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: eggs in the mix. It ignores other reasons for the 817 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: success of the fresh egg recipe. One of them is 818 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: that a cake made with a fresh egg is usually 819 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: going to be a lot better, uh quote. Using complete 820 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,320 Speaker 1: mixes which included dried eggs resulted in cakes that stuck 821 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: to the pan, had poor texture, had shorter shelf life, 822 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: and often tasted too strongly of eggs. Another thing is 823 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,479 Speaker 1: that it kind of screws up the timeline of cake 824 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: mix sales, and it ignores the simultaneous success of cake 825 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: mixes that did include powdered egg and it ignores other 826 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: changes in marketing and advertising that took place simultaneous to 827 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: the fresh egg recipe. One example is repositioning cake mixes 828 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 1: as step one in a larger creative process that involves 829 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: icing and decoration and things like that. So if if 830 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: the cook wanted to feel like they were actually doing 831 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: something and not just you know, not just opening a box, 832 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: and that was it, that could come at the decoration 833 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: stage of the cake. And then finally I thought this 834 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: was maybe the most interesting. And the story ignores other 835 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 1: social changes that led to the increasing sales of box 836 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: cake mixes in the fifties, one of which was that 837 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: high school home economics classes were increasingly teaching baking based 838 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 1: on mixes rather than from scratch, just sort of couching 839 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: it in that case, and just the the overall um 840 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: shift towards industrial food products, right. Yeah, And so it 841 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: seems like there's a bunch of different stuff going on here, 842 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: and this story just kind of like, you know, a 843 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 1: cherry pick like a couple of little facts from this 844 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: period and then makes it a self contained, causative story. 845 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what it was about that story 846 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: that set me on alert. I guess it just has 847 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: it has that shape, you know, the shape of a 848 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: story that is a little too tidy, where the solution 849 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: to the problem is very cutely psychologically revealing. It's the 850 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: kind of thing that you know, you love to have 851 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,399 Speaker 1: as an anecdote to lead off your motivational talk. Huh, 852 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,359 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I mean, I can't help but thinking about 853 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,760 Speaker 1: just the basic idea of providing your own egg or not. Um, 854 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: I see this today and some of the box meal 855 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: kids that are out there, Um, because box meal kids 856 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: very like there's some box meal kids that are basically 857 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: just TV dinners, um, and then most of the more 858 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: famous ones involved chopping and preparation. But there's one major brand, 859 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: uh that I won't name because they're not paying us 860 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,280 Speaker 1: to right now that includes eggs. And there's another major 861 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: brand that I won't name because they're not paying us 862 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,399 Speaker 1: right now that ask you to provide your own egg 863 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think about. Of course, just the 864 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: shipping demands of mailing eggs to people, I imagine that 865 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: is a huge part of it. But but maybe there 866 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: is also the sense of preparation, you know, like it 867 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,839 Speaker 1: is it is good to provide your own egg. Uh, 868 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: it's good that I had to procure my own eggs. 869 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: I don't know or or think about where my eggs 870 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: came from by exactly the type of eggs that I want, 871 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: like if I want to you know, cage free. Yeah, 872 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: that's a good point. And I mean, the the underlying 873 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: premise of this story I think does have something to it, 874 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: which is that, you know, like we were saying there, 875 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 1: there are these different sort of psychological pressures that are 876 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: operating us when we're making decisions about what types of 877 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: food products to buy, and those psychological pressures might not 878 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: be only how does it taste, what is the cost 879 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 1: and things like that. It could be things about how 880 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,399 Speaker 1: we feel about methods of preparation or even methods of eating. 881 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 1: Here's one thing, you know, Taco Bell they put they 882 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: give you the sauce packets on the side, and there's 883 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: like the question of like, now, what's the why why 884 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: do they give you the sauce packets on the side 885 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,319 Speaker 1: instead of just putting the sauce on your taco and 886 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: then handing it off to you. I mean, there's something 887 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 1: that they've reasoned about, Like people like to be able 888 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,800 Speaker 1: to put the sauce on themselves that you know, there's 889 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: something pleasurable about that process, or like being able to 890 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: determine exactly how much sauce and where it goes and stuff. Well, 891 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: spice control is a big thing, you know what I mean. 892 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: You can have that taco as bland as you want, 893 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: or you can you can start, you know, superpowering it 894 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,439 Speaker 1: with with multiple spicy packs. So I also wonder about 895 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: like box macaroni and cheese, uh, you know, so they'll 896 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: give you, like the cheese sauce fully made in a 897 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: powdered form, or a you know, like gooey velveta form 898 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 1: or whatever ahead of time. Or I think there's some 899 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 1: fancier brands that ask you to supply something of your own, 900 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,439 Speaker 1: you know, use your own butter, or use your own 901 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:57,240 Speaker 1: milk that may contribute somewhat to the texture the final product. 902 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: But I wonder also if that's like if you're trying 903 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: to up sell a brand, you're trying to sell a 904 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: more expensive boxed macaroni and cheese. Is there is there 905 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: a calculation that people will think, oh, this is a 906 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: more legitimate meal, more legitimate food product if I provide 907 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: some of my own fresh ingredients. Yeah, is this a 908 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,279 Speaker 1: meal in a box? Or is this an ingredient for 909 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,239 Speaker 1: a meal? Um? I guess the difference can can can 910 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,919 Speaker 1: play a major row and whether one purchase it or not. 911 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,360 Speaker 1: But let's get back to the gravy too. Oh yeah, 912 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 1: so where does gravy enter the picture again? Here? Well, 913 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,840 Speaker 1: thinking about these industrially produced gravy mixes. Um, so again, 914 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: you know we've we've said gravy is usually a byproduct 915 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,880 Speaker 1: of cooking meat. What is the gravy factory supposed to do? 916 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: Like you cook a million roasts and then you deglaze 917 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: the fond or the drippings from that, and then you 918 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: find something else to do with the meat. I mean, 919 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 1: it seems like kind of impractical at an industrial scale, 920 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 1: and for this reason, a lot of package gravies, you know, 921 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,759 Speaker 1: they'll have to like use a secondary animal aroduct as 922 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,800 Speaker 1: the flavoring to begin with, or they in fact maybe 923 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: have little or nothing to do with the meat they're 924 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: supposed to taste. Like. In this article, Madrigal quotes a 925 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: food scientist at the University of Minnesota named Gary A. Rhinesius, 926 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: who says the gravy mixes are a little more sophisticated 927 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: because the flavor from the gravy mix maybe a beef gravy, 928 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: but it's never been near a cow, so that you 929 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 1: might get a beef gravy that just has no beef 930 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: content at all. So where does the flavor come from? Well, 931 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,920 Speaker 1: they're they're all kinds of flavorings that can be like 932 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: wheat based flavorings, there can be I mean, a big 933 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: one for gravy mixes in history is MSG, which we've 934 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: done whole episodes about before. Monosodium glutamate originally isolated by 935 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 1: by Japanese food scientists from from seaweed, and this recreates 936 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the savory flavors that we associate with 937 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 1: things like parmesan cheese or tomatoes or soy sauce or meats, 938 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: but has apparently been a huge bugbear in the history 939 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,879 Speaker 1: of powdered gravy mixes, and that is lumps. So if 940 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,080 Speaker 1: if you ever made gravy yourself, you you might have 941 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 1: encountered lumps before. When when you add starch to a 942 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: mixture of water and fat, it can be very easy 943 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: for the starch to form little clumps that don't fully 944 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: dissolve into the sauce. So if you you know, if 945 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 1: you get a clump of raw flour or corn starch 946 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,239 Speaker 1: in your mouth while you're eating gravy, that is very unpleasant. Uh. 947 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: And on the on the On a slightly related note, 948 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,399 Speaker 1: you should never eat raw flour. By the way, when 949 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: when people tell you not to eat raw dough for 950 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 1: some reason, they only emphasize the presence of raw eggs, 951 00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,160 Speaker 1: But you should be at least as concerned about raw 952 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:48,360 Speaker 1: flower because raw flower can easily pick up bacterial contamination 953 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: like E. Coal I and other things. Um and bacteria 954 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: can survive until the flower is cooked. You should think 955 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 1: about raw flour in sort of the same way you 956 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: think about raw hamburger. Uh, you know, don't eat if 957 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 1: it's not cooked. So that to be clear, you're saying, 958 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: don't eat unco cookie dough, right, Well, I mean it 959 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 1: depends like you could make cookie dough from something that 960 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 1: is safe. But yeah, if it's got raw flour in it, 961 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,400 Speaker 1: you should not eat it because it might hurt me. 962 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,000 Speaker 1: I mean, so good there are outbreaks. Well, I mean yeah, 963 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there are things that are 964 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: safety use like there. You know, there are companies that 965 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,839 Speaker 1: sell cookie dough that's just ready to eat cookie dough, 966 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,560 Speaker 1: ice cream and all that. I think that does not 967 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,439 Speaker 1: have raw flour in it, or if it does, it's 968 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: somehow been through a process that renders it safe. I'm 969 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,160 Speaker 1: not saying one should definitely ignore you on this one, 970 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,279 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying it's it's gonna be it's gonna 971 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: be hard to to make this life change when the 972 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: cookie dough or the cake batter or even the pancake 973 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,880 Speaker 1: batter is often the most delightful part of the whole process. 974 00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it can be I don't know 975 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,319 Speaker 1: the taste of raw flower. I think is is kind 976 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,920 Speaker 1: of gross and chalky on its own, But there's obviously 977 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: no I mean, I understand the appeal. I mean I've 978 00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,759 Speaker 1: had cookie dough too, but no, raw flower can have contamination, 979 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: just like raw meat can. There's been major outbreaks of 980 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,360 Speaker 1: ecal live from flower in the US. There's one in sixteen, 981 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: there was another one in twenty nineteen. According to the CDC, 982 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,040 Speaker 1: these sickened at least eighty people. Uh. And a fun fact, 983 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,439 Speaker 1: I was looking up, Oh, how exactly does flower get 984 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,480 Speaker 1: contaminated by e coal? Lie? Does that happen in the 985 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: factory or whatever? It can happen at multiple stages of 986 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: the process, but sometimes it appears to be literally just 987 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,400 Speaker 1: contamination by animal feces in the fields where the wheat 988 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,840 Speaker 1: is grown. So cool, huh ah, man, you can ruin 989 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 1: cookie dough. But back to lumpy gravy. Hey that you 990 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,000 Speaker 1: know it's so so maybe you've got some lumps of 991 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,160 Speaker 1: that same flower in your gravy. Uh. There are ways 992 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: around lumpy gravy. So first of all, it helps to 993 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 1: add starch when the mixture is cool will instead of hot. 994 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: And then dissolve it before as the mixture heats, rather 995 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,920 Speaker 1: than adding starch to liquid that's already hot or boiling. 996 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,560 Speaker 1: Another method is, of course, just good old fashioned whisking. 997 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 1: Just break it up with a whisk. But in reference 998 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,799 Speaker 1: to a patent that he found, Madrigal rights, quote home 999 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: cooks can prevent this simply by stirring the mixture, but 1000 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: that required quote considerable skill, as General Mills Harold Keller 1001 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: put it in a nineteen fifty eight patent application. I'm 1002 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,400 Speaker 1: not sure how much skill it takes to stir something 1003 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,719 Speaker 1: or to whisk it. But I don't know. Um, I 1004 00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,839 Speaker 1: don't know. I've been accused of improper whisking before, so 1005 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: oh yeah, what do you do wrong? Um? I think 1006 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: it was just like scrambled eggs that I did not 1007 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,200 Speaker 1: whisk properly, you know, because you gotta get it, you know. 1008 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,080 Speaker 1: It's it's not just stirring rapidly, like there's a whole 1009 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 1: like a wrisk orientation that needs to be right to 1010 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,719 Speaker 1: do it if you're really whisking something. Yeah, oh, well, 1011 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: here's a tip actually for for the cook's out there. Uh, 1012 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,360 Speaker 1: if you want to emulsify something really good with a whisk, 1013 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,920 Speaker 1: or fork, you're beating it. I used to always think 1014 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: it would be best to stir in a circle, but 1015 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,719 Speaker 1: I have read that it is better to go just 1016 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,040 Speaker 1: back and forth side to side than it is to 1017 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 1: go in a circle, because there's actually more mechanical agitation 1018 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,000 Speaker 1: if you go back and forth in a straight line 1019 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: that I think that was one of the problems I 1020 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: had previously, is that I would kind of I was 1021 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: whisking like I was stirring rapidly, and so I was 1022 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: going in a circle and I wasn't doing that that 1023 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,840 Speaker 1: just fast whipping. It's more like point A to point 1024 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,920 Speaker 1: B in the back to point A. So you're one 1025 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,080 Speaker 1: of these people who who Harold Keller just thinks that 1026 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,880 Speaker 1: you do not have considerable skill. Correct, I can't do it. 1027 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,880 Speaker 1: I think I'm better now, I'm I'm improving, but but yeah, 1028 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: I I don't think I was good at whisking nothing 1029 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: or passable at whisking until very recently. So was there 1030 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: a way around the lump problem? Well, some more food 1031 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,640 Speaker 1: science came in. Manufacturers discovered that, of course the addition 1032 00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: of leavening agents could help a little bit. They could 1033 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,600 Speaker 1: help prevent lumps from forming, and especially if mixture was 1034 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 1: again added at lower temperatures, but lumps would still come 1035 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,880 Speaker 1: together if you had already boiling water and you poured 1036 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,760 Speaker 1: the mixture in. So finally, the solution to the lump 1037 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: problem was to add long chain carbon hydrates, specifically multidextron 1038 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,640 Speaker 1: in a one to one ratio, and that sort of 1039 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: gets us up to the instant packet of gravy we 1040 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:28,640 Speaker 1: know today dirkys is for dinner. Thank thank you, I've 1041 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: got weirder territory to get to. Even then, this this 1042 00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 1: strange packet of of of gravy stuff or gravy like food, 1043 00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: because you know that we love the intersection of religion 1044 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 1: and food. Of course, I was wondering if I could 1045 00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: find any good gravy rituals or gravy superstitions, gravy mythology. 1046 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,960 Speaker 1: I I wasn't expecting to find anything, but I actually 1047 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 1: did sort of, at least in a very old classic 1048 00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 1: book of religious ethnography that is coming from a scholar 1049 00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,920 Speaker 1: named Uno Holmberg. He's He's a Finnish scholar of religions. 1050 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: He's apparently also known as Uno Harva, and he wrote 1051 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century. He wrote a volume of 1052 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: this Big Mythology series that was about the beliefs and 1053 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,000 Speaker 1: rituals of what he called the Finno Ugric people. So 1054 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:25,280 Speaker 1: this is gonna include Finnish people and people of much 1055 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: of the northern Northern Eurasia and northwest Siberia by region 1056 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 1: at least, I mean they might identify as different than 1057 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:40,560 Speaker 1: Russian ethnically. And this volume mentions recorded observations of several 1058 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 1: interesting rituals involving gravy. So the first is in rituals 1059 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,560 Speaker 1: honoring the memory of the dead among some of the 1060 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,120 Speaker 1: language groups of Northern Eurasia. Again this would be like 1061 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:55,000 Speaker 1: Western Siberia, and among some of these cultures, after a 1062 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: person dies, it is customary to honor them by bringing 1063 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,960 Speaker 1: food to their grave or placing food out somewhere in 1064 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,880 Speaker 1: the dead person's memory. Quote. Fish and meat are cooked 1065 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,960 Speaker 1: and together with other eatables, placed in vessels, either on 1066 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,480 Speaker 1: the ground by the house against the door on the 1067 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,040 Speaker 1: side of the hinges, or taken to the cemetery, where 1068 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: they are put on the ground above the head of 1069 01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 1: the deceased, or below the window of the grave house 1070 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:26,439 Speaker 1: if there is one on the ground t gravy Gin 1071 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and finally some cold water are poured, whence the term 1072 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:35,240 Speaker 1: water pouring is derived. Uh so gravy and gin for 1073 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,080 Speaker 1: the dead. I was also surprised by the specification of gin, 1074 01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,440 Speaker 1: because I don't usually think of that as uh the 1075 01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,800 Speaker 1: commonest spirit to find in like western Siberia. But yeah, 1076 01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder if it's specifically gin we're talking 1077 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,800 Speaker 1: about here, or they're just referring to some regional alcohol 1078 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,600 Speaker 1: that might be comparable on some level to jin. Yeah, 1079 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,320 Speaker 1: that could be sort of some sort of clear herbal. 1080 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Another one that I thought was interesting was there there 1081 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,520 Speaker 1: is a memorial gravy practice that Holmberg mentions as taking 1082 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 1: place among the fins of the Vulgar region. And he 1083 01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,920 Speaker 1: says that so there are these memorial feasts for the 1084 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,480 Speaker 1: dead in which quote at the door near the fireplace, 1085 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,919 Speaker 1: a trough is placed on which, as on the head 1086 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,840 Speaker 1: of a bed, little wax tapers And I think that 1087 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,640 Speaker 1: would refer to little objects that you would use as 1088 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:30,240 Speaker 1: if to like light a candle with little wax tapers 1089 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,760 Speaker 1: are fixed into the trough. Pieces of meat are thrown, 1090 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,720 Speaker 1: and some gravy poured when the names of the dead 1091 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 1: are mentioned with an appeal to them to eat and drink, 1092 01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 1: and to receive the lately deceased with a contented mind 1093 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: into their company. And so I like this because it 1094 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,680 Speaker 1: it almost seems to mirror the presence of gravy at Thanksgiving. 1095 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: It's like you're using meat and gravy as a kind 1096 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,000 Speaker 1: of bribe or offering to the long dead so that 1097 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: they don't give a cold shoulder to the recently dead, 1098 01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:01,760 Speaker 1: and they bring them into the family of the dead. 1099 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: But there's also a description of practices related to the 1100 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 1: killing of a bear by some of the Sami people's 1101 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,920 Speaker 1: and I thought this was really interesting, So I'm just 1102 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: gonna read this paragraph here. When the flesh is being cooked, 1103 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,000 Speaker 1: the hunters sit on each side of the fire according 1104 01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,240 Speaker 1: to their rank in position. First it's the one who 1105 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,400 Speaker 1: tracked the bear, then the interpreter of the magic drum, 1106 01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,360 Speaker 1: the bear killers, etcetera, all according to the importance of 1107 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,959 Speaker 1: the duty which they have had to do during the kill. 1108 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,240 Speaker 1: The vessel in which the flesh is cooked must be 1109 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,320 Speaker 1: of brass, or at the very least ornamented with brass rings. 1110 01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,000 Speaker 1: It must be carefully watched during the cooking, as the 1111 01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 1: running over of the tiniest trifle of gravy into the 1112 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: fire is regarded as a very bad omen should the 1113 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,640 Speaker 1: gravy commenced to boil too violently. It is not regulated 1114 01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,800 Speaker 1: by adding water or thinning out the fire, but one 1115 01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 1: of the men must go to the tent to see 1116 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,600 Speaker 1: whether any of the women has caused the trouble by 1117 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: unsuitable behavior. Should nothing blame worthy be found there, the 1118 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: chief person of the gathering tries to stop the gravy 1119 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,520 Speaker 1: from boiling over by the customary singing, singing to the 1120 01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,000 Speaker 1: gravy to prevent it from boiling out of the pan 1121 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,760 Speaker 1: into the fire, which would be a horrible symbol of 1122 01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,880 Speaker 1: bad luck to come. But only if you can't blame 1123 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,400 Speaker 1: it on the women. On the women in the tent, yes, um, 1124 01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,320 Speaker 1: and so as always the You know, this is an 1125 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,720 Speaker 1: older work of of recorded observations of religious rituals. I 1126 01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: don't know how this would hold up to more modern 1127 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,040 Speaker 1: scrutiny of what the same tribes would practice, but these 1128 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: are interesting reports. Oh absolutely, yeah. I have to admit 1129 01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,680 Speaker 1: I never even considered the possibility of of sacred gravy 1130 01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:52,120 Speaker 1: or sacred traditions involving gravy, I mean the gravy It 1131 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:56,040 Speaker 1: is a it's it's a liquid essence of the body 1132 01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: of an animal. And so if you have sacred thoughts 1133 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,880 Speaker 1: about the flesh of an animal, it clearly, uh, there 1134 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,320 Speaker 1: are sacred practices revolved around the hunting of a bear 1135 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,600 Speaker 1: among the Sami People's Yeah, I guess, I guess that 1136 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,000 Speaker 1: it comes down to the rendering, you know, like once 1137 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,600 Speaker 1: something is rendered or processed into another food product, this 1138 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:17,440 Speaker 1: is problem. Maybe this is more the modern sensibility where 1139 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,280 Speaker 1: we often want to distance the end result of the 1140 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,880 Speaker 1: food from the animal, so we don't think of you know, 1141 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,600 Speaker 1: we don't don't want to think of the pork as 1142 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,720 Speaker 1: the pig, and we certainly don't want to think about 1143 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 1: the uh, the anna sausages as presumably a pig. I'm 1144 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,480 Speaker 1: not even sure what animal on the other end of 1145 01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:39,000 Speaker 1: that that the foul process. But but but at any rate, Yeah, 1146 01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,640 Speaker 1: it's like the modern sensibilities to think, well, the thing 1147 01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,320 Speaker 1: you make out of the animal no longer has any 1148 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,280 Speaker 1: connections to it, you know, we're not supposed to have 1149 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:50,840 Speaker 1: that connection in place, whereas that's completely ridiculous, like why 1150 01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't the gravy of the bear still have bareness to it? 1151 01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,560 Speaker 1: That is a really good point. I think about this 1152 01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,120 Speaker 1: in the psychology of food a lot actually the d 1153 01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,520 Speaker 1: naturing of the food, the removal, the ways that you 1154 01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,880 Speaker 1: change food and process it so that it no longer 1155 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: resembles or even reminds you of the animal or the 1156 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,640 Speaker 1: plant that it once came from, the making of everything 1157 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:17,080 Speaker 1: into like patties or into chicken nuggets, you know, things 1158 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,280 Speaker 1: that that you you couldn't even mistake for a muscle 1159 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,680 Speaker 1: or for a part of an animal's body, and that's 1160 01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,760 Speaker 1: clearly antithetical to some of these sacred practices where you 1161 01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:31,040 Speaker 1: are not only not processing the food so that it's unrecognizable, 1162 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,160 Speaker 1: you are constantly making reference to and thinking about the 1163 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 1: animal it came from as you eat it. Yeah. I 1164 01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: also think it's interesting that you see a lot of 1165 01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:43,160 Speaker 1: this denaturing specifically in foods for children. And I don't 1166 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,840 Speaker 1: know if that's just a quirk of modern American culture 1167 01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,200 Speaker 1: or if that's a more common thing around the world 1168 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,720 Speaker 1: and throughout history that you have to for kids, you 1169 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,880 Speaker 1: have to make foods less resemble the organisms they originally 1170 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:57,840 Speaker 1: came from. I don't know what do you think about 1171 01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the I mean, I can main they only speak to 1172 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: my my own experience with a child. But and even 1173 01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:08,640 Speaker 1: this example, there's some contradictions because on one hand, Um, 1174 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,800 Speaker 1: as soon as he knew the distinction that you know, 1175 01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,360 Speaker 1: the chicken is this, uh, this bird, you know, etcetera, 1176 01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,840 Speaker 1: he decided he didn't want to eat those animals anymore. Uh, 1177 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:23,200 Speaker 1: and has has remained firm on that point, on on 1178 01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,440 Speaker 1: on this. At the same time, as far as marine 1179 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:29,240 Speaker 1: animals go, Uh, it's the complete opposite, Like like he 1180 01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,880 Speaker 1: gets excited about crabs if he has helped to catch 1181 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,720 Speaker 1: crabs before, and he makes him want to eat them 1182 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,640 Speaker 1: even more, you know, And he seems totally into the 1183 01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,520 Speaker 1: like the experience of of eating oysters, um, you know, 1184 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,800 Speaker 1: the opening of the shell and pulling it, pulling it apart. 1185 01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,360 Speaker 1: Now all the like, the consumption of an oyster is 1186 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,440 Speaker 1: very tied to an understanding of its um of it, 1187 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,480 Speaker 1: of its biological origins. And uh yeah, so I don't know, 1188 01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,200 Speaker 1: I kind of see both things in him. You know. Well, 1189 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:02,800 Speaker 1: that's funny because modern secular oyster culture reminds me very 1190 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,160 Speaker 1: much of these sacred rituals where like with the bear here, 1191 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,640 Speaker 1: where you're very much wanting to think about the animal 1192 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,320 Speaker 1: itself and even uh not wanting to spill any of 1193 01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,080 Speaker 1: the liquor out of the shell. You know, you want 1194 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,600 Speaker 1: to get it all in your mouth. Yeah, I mean yea, 1195 01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,680 Speaker 1: oysters are very ritualized really at every level. Like I'm 1196 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,400 Speaker 1: I'm kind of a I'm still kind of old fashioned 1197 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,480 Speaker 1: with my appreciation of oysters. I like I like my 1198 01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,640 Speaker 1: my catch up the horse radish sauce. I like my 1199 01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,520 Speaker 1: saltine crackers and uh and you know a little bit 1200 01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:34,840 Speaker 1: of lemon um and and but that in and of 1201 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,040 Speaker 1: itself is very you know, it's it's almost like communion. 1202 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,760 Speaker 1: You know, you have these different elements that come together. 1203 01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:43,080 Speaker 1: But then of course you have fancier versions of the 1204 01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,680 Speaker 1: same ritual that involve like like you know, little little 1205 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,160 Speaker 1: glass tubes of liquid that are poured on top. Uh 1206 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and and it gets it gets even fancy, or even 1207 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,720 Speaker 1: feel it feels even more sacred in some way. This 1208 01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:59,120 Speaker 1: is the body of Poseidon. Eat this in remembrance of me. Yeah. Now, 1209 01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:00,680 Speaker 1: I know we've been talked thing about a lot of 1210 01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:03,720 Speaker 1: meat products here because they are very central to you know, 1211 01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:07,840 Speaker 1: a traditional Thanksgiving dinner in American culture. But I want 1212 01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 1: to add a brief culinary note which is that if 1213 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,920 Speaker 1: you are a vegetarian, you need not miss out on 1214 01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,080 Speaker 1: gravy for the rest of your life because gravy made 1215 01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,479 Speaker 1: from mushroom broth, I think, is not only as good 1216 01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,479 Speaker 1: as gravy made from meat, it's often better. I think 1217 01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,559 Speaker 1: probably the best gravy I ever made was mushroom based, 1218 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,799 Speaker 1: and you can make these yourself just by like simmering 1219 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,679 Speaker 1: dried mushrooms with aromatic vegetables to make a mushroom broth. 1220 01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,080 Speaker 1: Then you reduce that, then you mix it with a 1221 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,639 Speaker 1: with a ru or whatever seasonings you want in order 1222 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,519 Speaker 1: to thicken it. Even if you're a meat eater, a 1223 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,880 Speaker 1: good mushroom gravy is absolutely worth trying. It's delicious. Yeah. 1224 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,360 Speaker 1: There was some sort of meal my family would make 1225 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:49,280 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and it was I can't 1226 01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,120 Speaker 1: remember the details, but I feel like the idea was 1227 01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:55,920 Speaker 1: it was a less um fancy cut of meat well 1228 01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,720 Speaker 1: and and adding a mushroom sauce to it was an 1229 01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,960 Speaker 1: essential part of enjoying it. Like it it. It alone 1230 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,720 Speaker 1: elevated this cut of meat to something that was was 1231 01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,240 Speaker 1: suitable for consumption. I think this brings us back to 1232 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:12,160 Speaker 1: one of the core things about how gravy is used 1233 01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:15,519 Speaker 1: because and this actually ranges across different types of customs. 1234 01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,880 Speaker 1: It's true for the dry, overcooked underseason turkey that a 1235 01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:21,479 Speaker 1: lot of people would eat, you know, you save it 1236 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 1: by pouring gravy all over it. But it's also true, 1237 01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,000 Speaker 1: I say biscuits and gravy, you know, I think that's 1238 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,680 Speaker 1: a recipe that where the gravy was brought in to 1239 01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:33,760 Speaker 1: save just these like gross lumps of You just got 1240 01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,000 Speaker 1: to get this food into your body to power you 1241 01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:39,640 Speaker 1: through the day. But it's this nasty baked product that 1242 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,599 Speaker 1: is not very good on its own. Well, you pour 1243 01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,360 Speaker 1: some gravy over it. Now it's a hot meal. Yeah. 1244 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,120 Speaker 1: This reminds me of our Invention episode on Catchup, which 1245 01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:51,439 Speaker 1: I anybody who's digging this episode definitely go look up 1246 01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,000 Speaker 1: that episode of Catchup. It's either in the Stuff to 1247 01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:56,320 Speaker 1: boil your mind feed from earlier this year when we 1248 01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:58,920 Speaker 1: kind of dumped a lot of Invention episodes into the feed, 1249 01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:00,759 Speaker 1: or you might have to go over to the Invention 1250 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,680 Speaker 1: show feed itself. But but it's a similar history, like 1251 01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,479 Speaker 1: the the the origin of ketchup is the origin of 1252 01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:10,320 Speaker 1: these various sauces that were created oftentimes it's like a 1253 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,760 Speaker 1: secondary product from the from preserving the preservation of you know, 1254 01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,639 Speaker 1: fish or whatnot, and then using these as a way 1255 01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:24,320 Speaker 1: to make potentially vile tasting foods more palatable. Yeah. Well 1256 01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,320 Speaker 1: this this also reminds me one of the early recommendations 1257 01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:31,920 Speaker 1: for uses of ketchup an American cuisine was to add 1258 01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:36,479 Speaker 1: flavor to graves no joke. Wow, so you'd like mix 1259 01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:41,400 Speaker 1: it in? Yeah? Okay, One last bonus fact. I just 1260 01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,920 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about real quick before we end. Cranberry sauce. 1261 01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:46,880 Speaker 1: Do you have cranberry sauce thoughts? Do you like the 1262 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,720 Speaker 1: can stuff? I've seen people say like they don't want 1263 01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:53,919 Speaker 1: it unless it has the the can ribs still visible 1264 01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,600 Speaker 1: on it, like you know, bones poking out under the 1265 01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,879 Speaker 1: flesh of a beast. I don't have a particular preference. 1266 01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,800 Speaker 1: I'm I'm better, but I remember growing up, we would 1267 01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,080 Speaker 1: the rest of the family would have like a more 1268 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:11,760 Speaker 1: elegant cranberry sauce that clearly has an organic origin. But 1269 01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,000 Speaker 1: my dad, I believe it was my dad that insisted 1270 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,920 Speaker 1: on or maybe it's my grandfather, can't remember. I think 1271 01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,360 Speaker 1: it was my dad insisted on the canned version. Where 1272 01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,599 Speaker 1: if it's like clearly it's in the shape of a can, 1273 01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:24,840 Speaker 1: it still has the lines on it, the ridges, and 1274 01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:26,760 Speaker 1: it's just been sliced in half. It's just like a 1275 01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,599 Speaker 1: chopped up segment of a pink snake and you can 1276 01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,920 Speaker 1: see it's bones. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. As 1277 01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:35,519 Speaker 1: far as traditions go, I kind of love them both. 1278 01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,240 Speaker 1: Like I even though I don't think I ever ate 1279 01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,519 Speaker 1: the canned cranberry slice stuff like that, just thinking about 1280 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,439 Speaker 1: it makes me happy, So I guess I'm all for it. Well, 1281 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,639 Speaker 1: so I was wondering quickly, why is it that cranberry 1282 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:49,559 Speaker 1: sauce gets so thick like that, you know, you get 1283 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,080 Speaker 1: the jelly version of the can now in the canned 1284 01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,599 Speaker 1: to product. It's possible that some brands will add further 1285 01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,120 Speaker 1: things to make it hold its shape even better, but 1286 01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,960 Speaker 1: that that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, because 1287 01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,320 Speaker 1: there are natural parts of cranberries that will make it 1288 01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,760 Speaker 1: gel quite nicely if you just prepare it the right way. Um. 1289 01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:11,840 Speaker 1: And this is a nice reminder that, like we've been 1290 01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:14,720 Speaker 1: talking about with with animal products, many of the culinary 1291 01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:19,200 Speaker 1: properties of food are also just straightforwardly the biological properties 1292 01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,000 Speaker 1: of plants and animals. It's a strange thing to remember. 1293 01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:25,040 Speaker 1: In the case of cranberry sauce. Part of the answer 1294 01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,080 Speaker 1: of what makes cranberry sauce gel so thickly and hold 1295 01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:32,080 Speaker 1: its shape is a molecule called pecton. Pecton is a 1296 01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:36,160 Speaker 1: natural polysaccharide that's found in plants, and it works as 1297 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:41,240 Speaker 1: a type of biological cement that holds plants sell walls together, 1298 01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,559 Speaker 1: and fruits that are high in pectin will release their 1299 01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:48,120 Speaker 1: pectin content as their cells are destroyed through cooking. And 1300 01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:52,559 Speaker 1: this is one reason that longer cooked cranberry sauces tend 1301 01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,559 Speaker 1: to gel together more than a short cooked sauce. Well, 1302 01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,200 Speaker 1: the longer you cook it, you extract more and more 1303 01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: of this biological glue that gets all mixed into the 1304 01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,720 Speaker 1: sauce you're making and helps it sort of hold its 1305 01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:07,679 Speaker 1: shape once it sets. Interesting, all right, I know what 1306 01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,759 Speaker 1: what everyone out there is is asking. At this point, 1307 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,240 Speaker 1: you're saying, what about stuffing? I gotta know about stuffing. Well, 1308 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,759 Speaker 1: we're out of time, so we're not gonna do stuffing 1309 01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,720 Speaker 1: this year. Maybe we'll do stuffing next year. We need 1310 01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,519 Speaker 1: to have portion control on this show. Thanksgiving meal itself 1311 01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:25,479 Speaker 1: is not about portion control, but the show has to 1312 01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,200 Speaker 1: be so as far as stuffing goes, maybe we'll cover 1313 01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:30,000 Speaker 1: it next year, or maybe you can just go listen 1314 01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,400 Speaker 1: to our episode about pie crete and that'll be close 1315 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:37,280 Speaker 1: enough to stuffing for your taste. It's a low carb 1316 01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:42,600 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving what everyone wants. All right, Well, this is this 1317 01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,479 Speaker 1: was pretty fun. I got to learn. I got to 1318 01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:46,840 Speaker 1: learn a few things about turkeys and witch bones that 1319 01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,639 Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with. I got to learn about sacred gravy. 1320 01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:54,320 Speaker 1: This is. This has been great. Alright, We're gonna let 1321 01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:57,519 Speaker 1: it go. Then we hope everybody, if you're celebrating Thanksgiving 1322 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,439 Speaker 1: or some version of Thanksgiving, we hope that that goes well. Uh. 1323 01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:02,320 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 1324 01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,200 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can 1325 01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,920 Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcasts and wherever that 1326 01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,479 Speaker 1: happens to be. If you have the ability to rate, review, 1327 01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:11,640 Speaker 1: and subscribe to the show, we asked that you do that. 1328 01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,400 Speaker 1: It's a great way to help out the show. Another 1329 01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:16,040 Speaker 1: thing you can do, and this is it's kind of 1330 01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:18,679 Speaker 1: mostly for fun, is that if you go to stuff 1331 01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:20,320 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com that will take you 1332 01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:22,400 Speaker 1: to the I Heart page for our show, and there's 1333 01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:25,000 Speaker 1: something you can click on there for our store that'll 1334 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:26,760 Speaker 1: take you to our T shirts store. We have a 1335 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,439 Speaker 1: number of different designs. You can get them on a 1336 01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,559 Speaker 1: sticker or a shirt or what have you face mask 1337 01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,400 Speaker 1: I think even now, and there's several different designs there. 1338 01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:36,720 Speaker 1: Some of them are logo and some of them are 1339 01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,720 Speaker 1: some other fun things. We have a new shirt in there. 1340 01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,920 Speaker 1: It's a Pandora shirt that a listener of designed for us, 1341 01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:45,840 Speaker 1: and it's really fun. It's got a Pandora Moti and 1342 01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,040 Speaker 1: she's opening in the box and it's releasing these various 1343 01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,559 Speaker 1: uh mythological concepts and ideas. It's pretty cool, so go 1344 01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,320 Speaker 1: check check that out. I think there are all sorts 1345 01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,360 Speaker 1: of sales going on right now, because of course this 1346 01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:01,040 Speaker 1: time of year, it's just internally black slide huge things. 1347 01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,240 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1348 01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1349 01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,679 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 1350 01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,920 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 1351 01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,519 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1352 01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:23,760 Speaker 1: dot com. 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