1 00:00:01,340 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,530 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 3 00:00:14,770 --> 00:00:17,990 Speaker 1: And I'm Holly Frey. This week we talked about Sarah 4 00:00:18,010 --> 00:00:23,050 Speaker 1: Weiss and her journeys to Mars. Indeed. A big question 5 00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:27,940 Speaker 1: in my mind as I worked on this is how 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,589 Speaker 1: she knew... about the stuff that she was including in 7 00:00:33,630 --> 00:00:36,740 Speaker 1: the book that was related to life on Earth. Because... Oh. 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,780 Speaker 1: I'll just say I do not believe she was receiving 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:48,510 Speaker 1: psychic communications from a band of famous dead people on Mars. Tracy, what? What? 10 00:00:49,340 --> 00:00:51,769 Speaker 1: You doubt her word? I don't think that was what 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,010 Speaker 1: was going on. I don't have an explanation for what 12 00:00:54,050 --> 00:00:56,890 Speaker 1: was going on. I believe that she believed that. And 13 00:00:56,970 --> 00:00:59,730 Speaker 1: so then my question is just like, she seemed to 14 00:00:59,810 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: have had at least a working knowledge of a number 15 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: of 19th century scholars, naturalists, writers, and also Giordano Bruno, right? 16 00:01:13,290 --> 00:01:15,910 Speaker 1: And the Giordano Bruno part might make the most sense 17 00:01:15,970 --> 00:01:18,570 Speaker 1: given that she had like a very religious upbringing. That 18 00:01:18,590 --> 00:01:23,009 Speaker 1: might have been something that she came into contact with 19 00:01:23,069 --> 00:01:25,850 Speaker 1: when she was only allowed to read religious works, even 20 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:29,709 Speaker 1: though he was a heretic. But she wasn't characterized as 21 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: someone who was really like well or widely read. So 22 00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:40,220 Speaker 1: I just have curiosity about what is your, you seem 23 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,940 Speaker 1: to have an idea. Where does that characterization come from? 24 00:01:43,459 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: It comes vaguely from her husband, mostly. So it could 25 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,650 Speaker 1: just be how he was positioning her. How does she 26 00:01:50,690 --> 00:01:54,810 Speaker 1: know these things? She wasn't allowed to read these things. Right. Adolf, 27 00:01:54,970 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: I have questions. The number of letters that passed between 28 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:10,940 Speaker 1: him and the psychical investigator, Hyslop, whatever his first name was, 29 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:14,179 Speaker 1: It was a number of letters that if I had 30 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:19,580 Speaker 1: been in Adolf's place, I would have been annoyed. Because 31 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,700 Speaker 1: reading through the whole exchange, it's like, oh, I have 32 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: one more thing. Oh, you have one more thing. I 33 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:28,340 Speaker 1: have one more thing. And I'm just like, you are 34 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: writing this man questions about his dead wife. And then 35 00:02:34,430 --> 00:02:37,150 Speaker 1: asking more minutiae every time he answers you. And I 36 00:02:37,169 --> 00:02:39,410 Speaker 1: was like, I would have found that a little bit irritating. 37 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:44,710 Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't. I mean, he seemed willing, though, to 38 00:02:44,770 --> 00:02:47,850 Speaker 1: talk about her. Yeah. Is it like, do you get 39 00:02:47,889 --> 00:02:50,989 Speaker 1: the same level of irritated if somebody sends you five 40 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:54,090 Speaker 1: texts when you haven't answered the first one? No, but 41 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: I would get irritated if every time I answered someone's question, 42 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: they didn't seem to find the answer satisfactory and wanted 43 00:03:02,740 --> 00:03:07,030 Speaker 1: to ask more questions. Fair, fair. Maybe Hyslop was a 44 00:03:07,070 --> 00:03:09,730 Speaker 1: little ADHD and he was like, oh, I forgot to do. 45 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:14,290 Speaker 1: Now I've gone. I mean, I don't know. Supposition on 46 00:03:14,330 --> 00:03:17,030 Speaker 1: my part, obviously. It also is one of those things 47 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:18,889 Speaker 1: that if they were in a room together, it might 48 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:23,990 Speaker 1: have been just a completely normal, non-annoying conversation. But the 49 00:03:24,030 --> 00:03:26,290 Speaker 1: fact that it was playing out in letters back and 50 00:03:26,350 --> 00:03:28,900 Speaker 1: forth made me go, okay, I would be a little 51 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:31,460 Speaker 1: irritated if this was me. But is that just because 52 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: letters are more of an arduous thing now than they 53 00:03:33,660 --> 00:03:36,810 Speaker 1: would have been considered then? I don't know. Well, because 54 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:40,090 Speaker 1: I think I would have a similar response if someone 55 00:03:40,130 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: were emailing me and I answered with what I thought 56 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: would be the final answer. And then I would get 57 00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:52,270 Speaker 1: a reply that made it seem like that answer was unsatisfactory. 58 00:03:53,150 --> 00:03:55,450 Speaker 1: The last thing that I had noted as like just 59 00:03:55,510 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: a thing to mention is When we did our episode 60 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: on Edward Bulwer-Lytton, we didn't really talk much about his 61 00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: fiction in detail because that episode was more about his 62 00:04:06,460 --> 00:04:10,150 Speaker 1: terrible relationship with his wife and her attempts to get 63 00:04:10,310 --> 00:04:15,230 Speaker 1: out of that marriage. So, this is kind of speculation 64 00:04:15,310 --> 00:04:17,570 Speaker 1: on my part because when I was reading through who 65 00:04:17,650 --> 00:04:20,550 Speaker 1: all was in the spirit band, I was like, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, 66 00:04:20,589 --> 00:04:24,380 Speaker 1: that seems odd when we're also talking about Charles Darwin and, 67 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:28,700 Speaker 1: you know, other naturalists and whatever. And it's the most 68 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: logical reason for him to be part of the spirit 69 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,339 Speaker 1: band does seem to be this, you know, his works 70 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,750 Speaker 1: of fiction that seems thematically related to the spiritualist movement. 71 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:42,150 Speaker 1: So one of these was a horror story called The 72 00:04:42,210 --> 00:04:46,050 Speaker 1: Haunted and the Haunters, or The House and the Brain. Right. 73 00:04:46,810 --> 00:04:51,460 Speaker 1: There was also one called A Strange Story that had 74 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: an element of mesmerism in the plot and may have 75 00:04:55,580 --> 00:05:00,300 Speaker 1: been an influence on the novel Dracula. And then there 76 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:05,290 Speaker 1: was Vril, The Power of the Coming Race, which was 77 00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:10,900 Speaker 1: about a subterranean race discovered by an American explorer... that 78 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:14,310 Speaker 1: based on the brief summary I read, may have had 79 00:05:14,529 --> 00:05:19,289 Speaker 1: an influence on theosophy, which means this was almost another 80 00:05:19,350 --> 00:05:23,529 Speaker 1: guest appearance by frequent podcast poltergeist. That's not the word 81 00:05:23,550 --> 00:05:26,590 Speaker 1: that I'm looking for. The specter that sometimes haunts the podcast. 82 00:05:27,029 --> 00:05:30,730 Speaker 1: Helena Blavatsky. It wouldn't be the Halloween season without a 83 00:05:30,750 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: Madame Blavatsky arrival. Yeah. I am under the impression that 84 00:05:36,020 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: Vril is also, like, it uses racist tropes in its 85 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,700 Speaker 1: descriptions of this race. But I have not read any 86 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:47,290 Speaker 1: of these books. But I thought it would be nice 87 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:49,810 Speaker 1: to say at least a little about what they were 88 00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:52,210 Speaker 1: about if people were like, why would that guy be 89 00:05:52,250 --> 00:05:55,330 Speaker 1: in the spirit band? Mostly what we talked about was 90 00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:57,770 Speaker 1: him being a politician who was awful to his wife. 91 00:05:59,170 --> 00:06:05,810 Speaker 1: But also dabbled in sci-fi. Yes. Sort of proto-sci-fi occult 92 00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:10,670 Speaker 1: horror writing. Love. Love. Yeah. I am pretty sure that 93 00:06:10,750 --> 00:06:14,550 Speaker 1: Sarah Weiss is somebody that I stumbled across a mention 94 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:19,690 Speaker 1: of when I was looking for books written by people 95 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,060 Speaker 1: that might be unusual or interesting to talk about on 96 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,380 Speaker 1: the show and then said, this seems like a Halloween episode. 97 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,100 Speaker 1: I will save it for October. Love. Love. And here 98 00:06:32,140 --> 00:06:36,190 Speaker 1: we are. Yeah. Time for October. This episode did the 99 00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:38,670 Speaker 1: thing that previous episodes have done where it puts a 100 00:06:38,710 --> 00:06:41,510 Speaker 1: song in my head and won't let it stop, which 101 00:06:41,570 --> 00:06:43,650 Speaker 1: is fine because I love this song. Oh, yeah? Which 102 00:06:43,670 --> 00:06:47,150 Speaker 1: is Elvis Costello's Beyond Belief. Okay. Because there's a line 103 00:06:47,190 --> 00:06:50,070 Speaker 1: in it. Just like the canals of Mars or the 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,620 Speaker 1: Great Barrier Reef, I come to you beyond belief. It's 105 00:06:52,660 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: one of my favorite, favorite songs of all time, and 106 00:06:54,580 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: I love it. So listen, I'll take any Elvis Costello 107 00:06:57,460 --> 00:07:00,659 Speaker 1: song at any point in time. Yeah. I also had another, huh, 108 00:07:01,290 --> 00:07:06,290 Speaker 1: that sounds familiar. I have not read Sarah Weiss's book. Right. 109 00:07:07,089 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: At all. But when we got to the part where 110 00:07:12,180 --> 00:07:19,900 Speaker 1: we're talking about von Humboldt, her spirit guide, I don't 111 00:07:19,940 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: know what to call him in any kind of real parlance, 112 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,050 Speaker 1: you know, discussing like the ways that humans have to 113 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,180 Speaker 1: be better and take care of one another, I was like, 114 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:36,740 Speaker 1: I would bet you $ 3 billion that Kurt Vonnegut read this. Oh. 115 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: Because it sounds so much like some of his writing. Yeah. 116 00:07:41,660 --> 00:07:44,140 Speaker 1: So much like some of his writing. And I'm curious. 117 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,060 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's documented anywhere. So I would not 118 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:49,980 Speaker 1: be at all surprised if that was an influence. Yeah. 119 00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:52,780 Speaker 1: I did not get the impression. I did not try 120 00:07:52,820 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: to go find, like, hard sales numbers or anything. But 121 00:07:57,060 --> 00:08:00,750 Speaker 1: I didn't get the impression that this book was enormously 122 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:05,750 Speaker 1: widely read. It is 600 pages long, and I did 123 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:08,850 Speaker 1: not read the whole 600 pages. But what I did 124 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:13,950 Speaker 1: read of it was kind of ponderous in places. And 125 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,660 Speaker 1: so I think that given the attitudes of the time, 126 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: the things that people were excited about, the overlap with 127 00:08:20,380 --> 00:08:24,180 Speaker 1: both Mars and the spiritualist movement, it might have been... 128 00:08:25,050 --> 00:08:31,970 Speaker 1: a bigger success had it not been 600 pages long. Yeah. 129 00:08:32,030 --> 00:08:34,730 Speaker 1: Which there are plenty of long books that have become 130 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: huge hits, but long and also dreary to read in 131 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:43,500 Speaker 1: places is just not an amazing combo for a bestseller 132 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still thinking 133 00:08:48,380 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: about Kurt Vonnegut because I'm like, oh, this is also 134 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: a little bit of Like Shades of Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse-Five. Oh, yeah. 135 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: Going to Tralfalmador. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Tralfalmador. I always do that 136 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: one wrong. And I'm like, hmm. I have always said 137 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: it in my head the way you just said it. 138 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,179 Speaker 1: I said it two different ways. Which one did you mean? 139 00:09:10,340 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: The first one. Gotcha. The first way. Yeah, it came 140 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:16,020 Speaker 1: up in a discussion once I was talking with a 141 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:17,980 Speaker 1: friend of the show, Brian Young. You know, he did 142 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:21,540 Speaker 1: the Vonnegut episode with me that we had live. Was 143 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:24,189 Speaker 1: that last year? And then I remember us talking about 144 00:09:24,210 --> 00:09:25,950 Speaker 1: it and me saying, I've been saying it wrong all 145 00:09:25,970 --> 00:09:27,950 Speaker 1: this time. It's really this. And now I don't remember 146 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:31,910 Speaker 1: which is which because my brain has decided to stop 147 00:09:31,950 --> 00:09:36,710 Speaker 1: recording information apparently at times. It's fine. It's fine. There 148 00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: are innumerable things that I learned to say by reading 149 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: them and later learned that I was not saying them correctly. 150 00:09:46,660 --> 00:09:49,980 Speaker 1: Sometimes because they were sounded out and they are not 151 00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:52,900 Speaker 1: pronounced the way they are spelled, but sometimes because I 152 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,510 Speaker 1: just misread the letters in them and came up with 153 00:09:55,570 --> 00:09:59,930 Speaker 1: a different pronunciation, including letters that aren't actually there. Yeah. 154 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,500 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we've all done that. I don't 155 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,699 Speaker 1: remember where I read it, somewhere on the internet at 156 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:07,780 Speaker 1: one point, it was probably on Twitter back in the day, 157 00:10:08,179 --> 00:10:10,450 Speaker 1: that someone had pointed out, like, you know, when you 158 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,790 Speaker 1: encounter someone who is clearly very smart and educated and 159 00:10:13,809 --> 00:10:16,030 Speaker 1: they mispronounce a word that you think is obvious and 160 00:10:16,450 --> 00:10:18,270 Speaker 1: what that means is that they learned it by reading 161 00:10:18,309 --> 00:10:19,630 Speaker 1: and there's no shame in that. And I was like, 162 00:10:19,650 --> 00:10:21,770 Speaker 1: that's a great way to look at it. I've also 163 00:10:21,809 --> 00:10:24,790 Speaker 1: had things that I learned from teachers who taught me 164 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: the incorrect way to say things. Oh, yeah. I think 165 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,059 Speaker 1: we had a discussion about the French word for snow once, 166 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:36,300 Speaker 1: and I was like, that's not how you say that word. 167 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,420 Speaker 1: We all have those, for sure. Yeah. We have definitely 168 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: gotten emails about how we have pronounced Newfoundland when we 169 00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: pronounced it the way it is in... U.S. dictionaries and 170 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:51,630 Speaker 1: how when I was taught the provinces of Canada in school. 171 00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:57,189 Speaker 1: It's not how we said it. Nope. Nope. Anyway, Sarah Weiss, 172 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:01,070 Speaker 1: interesting person. I wish we knew more about her life 173 00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:05,350 Speaker 1: beyond this book and how much of the, oh, she 174 00:11:05,390 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: never read, was just PR spin by her husband. And 175 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:26,479 Speaker 1: we talked about screaming skulls this week. We did that, yeah. Yeah. 176 00:11:27,059 --> 00:11:29,860 Speaker 1: I love these because they're sort of kooky and delightful. Yeah. 177 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,580 Speaker 1: Like I said, I didn't mean to laugh at the dead, 178 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,660 Speaker 1: but the whole, like, he doesn't like to be handled 179 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,059 Speaker 1: a lot. And he's fine if you're nice to him. 180 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: And then if you do too much, he lets you know. 181 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:40,939 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I have a cat like that. Yeah. 182 00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:44,670 Speaker 1: If you never make eye contact with him, he might 183 00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:48,550 Speaker 1: come get on your lap. Maybe. Maybe. That'd be great. 184 00:11:48,929 --> 00:11:54,090 Speaker 1: Here's an interesting thing. I believe that Theophilus Brougham was 185 00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:59,130 Speaker 1: maybe continuing a kooky family tradition in making bizarre requests 186 00:11:59,510 --> 00:12:03,210 Speaker 1: of how his remains were to be handled. Mm-hmm. Because 187 00:12:03,290 --> 00:12:08,850 Speaker 1: there's another Brougham in English history. As you'll recall, perhaps, 188 00:12:08,910 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: from that episode, we mentioned that Theophilus is... one of 189 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,810 Speaker 1: the Warwick bromes. And there was another brome named Nicholas 190 00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:24,140 Speaker 1: Brome in Warwick in... the early 1500s who died. I'm 191 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,870 Speaker 1: guessing they were related, but I didn't find a direct, like, 192 00:12:28,290 --> 00:12:31,710 Speaker 1: family tree that put them together. Right. But I also, like, 193 00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:34,190 Speaker 1: got a little fed up and didn't go down that 194 00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:37,069 Speaker 1: rabbit hole a super long time. But Nicholas had his 195 00:12:37,230 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: own kooky request. He might actually be a future episode, 196 00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: but he came up because in looking for newspaper accounts 197 00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: about this, people were like, there was at least one 198 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: or two that came up where they were like, this 199 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:50,420 Speaker 1: is like this other guy, but they don't necessarily, like, 200 00:12:51,090 --> 00:12:54,270 Speaker 1: go so far as to say they're 100% related. But 201 00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:56,790 Speaker 1: this one had done some things in his life. He 202 00:12:56,830 --> 00:13:01,490 Speaker 1: apparently murdered a couple people. And as penance in his will, 203 00:13:02,690 --> 00:13:05,730 Speaker 1: he wrote, I request that my body be buried within 204 00:13:05,770 --> 00:13:09,429 Speaker 1: the parish church of Battlesley Clinton, where people may tread 205 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: upon me when they come into the church. So he 206 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,590 Speaker 1: basically was trying to, like, prostrate himself and have people 207 00:13:16,630 --> 00:13:19,410 Speaker 1: walk over him for eternity as a way to atone 208 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:22,530 Speaker 1: for his sins. And I'm like, is this a family thing? 209 00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:24,210 Speaker 1: Do you guys just talk about the weird ways she 210 00:13:24,250 --> 00:13:28,930 Speaker 1: might be buried? But I also love it. Yeah. I 211 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: also love it. It's just a little kooky. Yeah. Yeah. 212 00:13:32,780 --> 00:13:38,460 Speaker 1: I didn't mention The Screaming Skull, the classic mid-20th century movie. 213 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,750 Speaker 1: Because it's so not the same thing as the... But 214 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:47,809 Speaker 1: in case anybody was like, hey, Holly, you like old 215 00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,089 Speaker 1: weird horror movies? Why didn't you mention it? Just because 216 00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:52,630 Speaker 1: it didn't. It would have been a weird detour and 217 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: we could have done it, but I didn't feel like it. 218 00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: That's all. That's the whole story. Okay. I kind of 219 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: want to, I mean, come up with a way that 220 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,700 Speaker 1: I can, you know, make people think I'm haunting them 221 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,140 Speaker 1: after I'm gone. But I also want to be cremated. 222 00:14:07,230 --> 00:14:11,180 Speaker 1: So this could be a problem. Yeah. Maybe I can imbue, 223 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:15,010 Speaker 1: at least in writing, some meaning to one of the 224 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:18,830 Speaker 1: many kooky toys I have. Uh-huh. And be like, if 225 00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:22,750 Speaker 1: you don't treat this doll with respect, if you don't 226 00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: treat this Greedo action figure with respect, I'm gonna haunt you. 227 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: You'll come back and haunt everyone. I'm gonna haunt you. Yeah. 228 00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: And it won't be the fun kind of haunting. I'm 229 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,780 Speaker 1: not gonna make you cocktails. I'm not gonna hang out 230 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,750 Speaker 1: and giggle. Yeah. I don't know what I'd do, but. Mm-hmm. 231 00:14:39,270 --> 00:14:43,250 Speaker 1: Silly things. Silly things. I like that we're into Halloween time. 232 00:14:43,310 --> 00:14:45,930 Speaker 1: I can tell you that. Yeah. I was going through 233 00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:48,970 Speaker 1: all the episodes that we were recording today and thinking 234 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:52,390 Speaker 1: these are pretty fun for the most part. Yeah. We 235 00:14:52,430 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: have some good Halloweeners this year. Yeah. We have one 236 00:14:55,980 --> 00:15:03,540 Speaker 1: coming up that I'm really excited about that involves candy discussion. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 237 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,140 Speaker 1: We got some murder on deck. Yeah. We've got some fun, 238 00:15:07,420 --> 00:15:10,980 Speaker 1: kooky things. Yeah. Who knows? And then I came across 239 00:15:11,020 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: another thing. One of my friends was like, hey, you 240 00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: should do this. And I was like, ugh, it might 241 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:17,220 Speaker 1: have to be next year because I think I have 242 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,070 Speaker 1: plotted out all of October's doings that I was going 243 00:15:20,090 --> 00:15:24,750 Speaker 1: to do. So we'll see. We'll see. It's another exhumation, 244 00:15:25,310 --> 00:15:27,430 Speaker 1: but more of a grave robbing. And it was one 245 00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:30,110 Speaker 1: that I came across when we were making Criminalia because 246 00:15:30,130 --> 00:15:33,730 Speaker 1: we did a grave robbing season. And we didn't do 247 00:15:33,770 --> 00:15:37,380 Speaker 1: an episode out of it for whatever reason. And I'm like, oh, yeah, 248 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:39,650 Speaker 1: that would actually be pretty fun to talk about because it's, 249 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:43,630 Speaker 1: you know, got some old Hollywood goodness and some wacky 250 00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:47,690 Speaker 1: grave robin. My favorite. Yeah. I did not like some 251 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:52,690 Speaker 1: of the ways that the second skull was talked about 252 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: at the time in this episode. Oh, yeah. Because, like, 253 00:15:59,030 --> 00:16:02,990 Speaker 1: somebody looking at the skull and going, oh... here are 254 00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:08,020 Speaker 1: some negative traits associated with the skull. I'm a medical student. Like, 255 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: that just feels super racist to me. That 100% sounds like, 256 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: here are... traits about the skull that i think are 257 00:16:17,380 --> 00:16:20,930 Speaker 1: bad and therefore it must have been and that like 258 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:23,090 Speaker 1: there's no evidence of any of that i have i 259 00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:26,790 Speaker 1: haven't read the paper that eventually concluded that it was 260 00:16:26,830 --> 00:16:30,350 Speaker 1: the skull of a woman or like what what criteria 261 00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:33,500 Speaker 1: were used to make that determination well and that's an 262 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: interesting thing to bring up because there are people today 263 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:41,750 Speaker 1: who are like that was the same thing Like they 264 00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: didn't do DNA testing that anybody knows of. They didn't 265 00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: do any like scientific. They literally did the same thing 266 00:16:47,880 --> 00:17:01,710 Speaker 1: of like an examination. Yeah. There are incredible things that 267 00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:06,129 Speaker 1: you can figure out about skulls nowadays. Oh, yeah. Including 268 00:17:06,190 --> 00:17:10,950 Speaker 1: like studying the isotopes. in there to figure out where 269 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: a person actually grew up. But like, I don't know 270 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:20,020 Speaker 1: what kind of assessment was made, but like it adds 271 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:24,929 Speaker 1: a weird layer to a story that had come along 272 00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:28,660 Speaker 1: with this murder discussion and we don't know whether it's 273 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: the victim or the perpetrator and then also a medical 274 00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: student was like, oh, this is what I think this 275 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:40,310 Speaker 1: person's skull was. Well, there's like a lot of a 276 00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:42,530 Speaker 1: lot of one there's a lot of made up stuff 277 00:17:42,570 --> 00:17:44,570 Speaker 1: like people are just making up lore about the skull 278 00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:46,949 Speaker 1: and two you know when it comes to that medical 279 00:17:46,990 --> 00:17:49,820 Speaker 1: student they knew about the skull and they were going 280 00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: hoping to look at it so I feel like it's 281 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:55,700 Speaker 1: just a bunch of confirmation bias on his part oh 282 00:17:55,940 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: sure sure like at no point was he really entertaining 283 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: the idea that the skull was anything else yeah he's 284 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,859 Speaker 1: like yes yes yes yes of course But also, we 285 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: don't know if that narrative's even real. We don't know 286 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,830 Speaker 1: who Miss Garnett was. Yeah. Or who this mystery medical 287 00:18:12,890 --> 00:18:18,090 Speaker 1: student was. So there's so much haziness around that particular one. Right. 288 00:18:18,609 --> 00:18:21,710 Speaker 1: You know, it's all a mess. It's all a mess. 289 00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: That's what it is. Don't get me wrong. I love it. 290 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: I love a mess. But also, I love, like, it's 291 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,260 Speaker 1: just a great piece of evidence of the way people 292 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,070 Speaker 1: just want to believe stuff, right? Like, even Judge Udall goes, 293 00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:37,390 Speaker 1: and he goes through all the family records on Nevis, 294 00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:39,750 Speaker 1: and he's reading up. But even he is like, and 295 00:18:39,770 --> 00:18:42,550 Speaker 1: I'm going to make a big jump of logic to, like, 296 00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:45,709 Speaker 1: make these two pieces of information I have match up 297 00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:49,219 Speaker 1: in a way that seems to align with the previously 298 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:55,230 Speaker 1: established lore that isn't... in any way verifiable either. It's 299 00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:57,630 Speaker 1: just one problem after another. And because when you look 300 00:18:57,690 --> 00:19:00,290 Speaker 1: at it and they're like, there is the idea that, 301 00:19:00,609 --> 00:19:05,830 Speaker 1: you know, Azariah Penny somehow had... I mean, if you 302 00:19:05,869 --> 00:19:08,109 Speaker 1: go by the original story that often gets told that 303 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:11,850 Speaker 1: he had somehow brought a person back with him from 304 00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:15,970 Speaker 1: the Caribbean, but then that isn't supported by the documentation 305 00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:20,260 Speaker 1: on Nevis... But people still repeat that version of the story. 306 00:19:20,380 --> 00:19:23,310 Speaker 1: Like the timeline is just messy as heck. There's just, 307 00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:26,310 Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing is a big gobbledygook of like, 308 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:29,970 Speaker 1: we wanted to make up a scary and wacky story. 309 00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:38,210 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah. Like, oh, bless your hearts. But yes, 310 00:19:38,330 --> 00:19:40,390 Speaker 1: it is inherently racist to presume that you can look 311 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:42,850 Speaker 1: at a skull and know what race the person was. Yeah. 312 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:46,980 Speaker 1: Unless you're dealing with some sort of skull that evidences 313 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:51,140 Speaker 1: manipulation that's done in specific cultures. Oh, sure. Yeah. Other 314 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: than that, there's not really a way. I just wanted 315 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: to make sure we caveated that in case somebody went, no, 316 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:59,610 Speaker 1: there are some ways. No. I'm reminded of the whole 317 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:07,330 Speaker 1: pseudoscience of phrenology and... Man, phrenology just... Yeah. Yeah. Phrenology 318 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:10,790 Speaker 1: pops up in places. And in fact, not in an 319 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:14,540 Speaker 1: episode that we're doing soon, but I might mention it 320 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. There was a phrenology jump scare in 321 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: the research. Oh, no. Yeah. But it was so minor. 322 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: It had no impact on the story we're telling. And 323 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,870 Speaker 1: I was just like, whatever. We may mention this later. Yeah. 324 00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:30,010 Speaker 1: We've talked in a couple of past episodes about the 325 00:20:30,050 --> 00:20:33,649 Speaker 1: people that developed whole collections of skulls to try to 326 00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:40,550 Speaker 1: make arguments about racial worth basically and yeah so anyway 327 00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:46,169 Speaker 1: made me feel yucky big fibby arguments anyway listen if 328 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:48,260 Speaker 1: this is your weekend coming up I hope you don't 329 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,060 Speaker 1: get haunted by a skull screaming or otherwise or maybe 330 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,380 Speaker 1: I hope you do it's Halloween season if you're into 331 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: it go for it I hope that your whatever ghosts 332 00:20:57,619 --> 00:21:00,060 Speaker 1: may visit you are are peaceful and cool or they 333 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: just want to hang out and have a have a 334 00:21:01,790 --> 00:21:05,500 Speaker 1: giggle I don't know whatever works is great If you 335 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,300 Speaker 1: have time off this weekend, I also hope that you 336 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: are taking care of yourself. You're doing something restful and restorative, 337 00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:14,490 Speaker 1: whatever that is. You don't have to be ambitious. You 338 00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:16,270 Speaker 1: just sit on your couch and watch cartoons. That sounds 339 00:21:16,330 --> 00:21:19,310 Speaker 1: great to me. If you have obligations, if you got to, 340 00:21:19,369 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, run errands, get groceries, mow the lawn, ferry 341 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,620 Speaker 1: people around to their various activities, etc. I still hope 342 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,669 Speaker 1: that you steal a little time. To just be chill 343 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:33,090 Speaker 1: and quiet with yourself or do whatever it is that 344 00:21:33,130 --> 00:21:35,530 Speaker 1: delights you. Maybe getting on a roller coaster. I don't know. 345 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:38,109 Speaker 1: I'm not the boss of you. That's the beauty of it. 346 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,169 Speaker 1: But I hope it's a great weekend. I hope everyone 347 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:45,290 Speaker 1: takes care of each other and that we all remember 348 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: to be kind. We will be right back here on 349 00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: Monday with a brand new episode. We will also be 350 00:21:52,460 --> 00:22:00,250 Speaker 1: back here tomorrow with a classic. Stuff You Missed in 351 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 352 00:22:04,060 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 353 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,669 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.