1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: Citizen Here in the US, the idea of social media 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: and democracy, well, I'm not sure they even belong in 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: the same sentence. Platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and read it. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: They tend to just be echo chambers with an abundant 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: supply of the most niche groups, so you can be 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: surrounded by your own choir. But there is a country 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: where this isn't necessarily the case. Today. We're going to Taiwan. 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: I repeat thai Wan. The Taiwanese government has essentially put 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: its entire democratic system online and it works now. Of course, 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: they have some exceptional policies in place, like they've got 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: universal broadband as a human right, virtual town halls and 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: a phone line get this where citizens can talk to 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: real people in the government about their problems. And if 20 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: that still isn't enough for a Taiwanese citizen to have 21 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: their voice heard, they can schedule on one on one 22 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: meeting with the person at the center of all this. 23 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: Every Tuesday from ten am to ten pm, the Digital 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Minister of Taiwan, Audrey Tongue, holds open office hours. Her 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: only request, you got to allow the conversation to be 26 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: recorded and uploaded online in the name of radical transparency. 27 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: And look, I'm not a citizen of Taiwan, but she 28 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: pen sold me in for some office hours of our own. 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: I say this without exaggeration. Audrey's accomplishments started at birth 30 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: due to a heart defect. As a toddler, she had 31 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: to train her body to keep her heart rate down 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: by practicing Daoist meditation techniques as a toddler. And when 33 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: it came to her education after discovering the Internet, that 34 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: did drop out once when I was eight, once when 35 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: I was ten, once when I was twelve. So anyway, yeah, 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: I I've had three kindergarten, six primary schools, and one 37 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: year of middle high serial drop out, if you will. 38 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: When I was in middle school, student was for a scene. 39 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: I talked to the head of the school saying, look, 40 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: I discovered this thing called the wild Web, and I 41 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: found out that the cutting edge knowledge is being created 42 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: on the web, and my textbooks were willfully out of date. 43 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: The head of the school, after she listened to me 44 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes describing this new thing called 45 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: the wild web, she said, okay, tomorrow, and you don't 46 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: have to go to my school anymore. Instead of eight 47 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: hours after school, you can't spend sixteen hours a day 48 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: during these She started her first company at age fifteen, 49 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: and that eventually led to her joining a community of 50 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: civic hackers technologists to innovate without permission, but in this 51 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: case not for financial gain or to prove they can 52 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: break into a system, but instead for the public good. 53 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: In after a series of protests in Taiwan, she was 54 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: appointed Taiwan's first Digital Minister, going from outsider to insider 55 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: hacker to cabinet minister. She's a believer in an advocate 56 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: for open data, open governance, and civil society government collaboration 57 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: without further ado. Audrey Tom Hello, Audrey, greetings, good luck 58 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: at time, good local time. Nice to meet you. Thank 59 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: you for joining us. You are the first cabinet minister 60 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: I will have ever had on any show of mine. 61 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: This is very exciting for me. Here's too many more 62 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: so it sounds like you grew up online? Is that 63 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: a fair way of describing choosing your education to happen 64 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: this way? Especially? That's right, I would say I I 65 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: migrated to the Internet when I was fourteen ish, so 66 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm not a digital native, but a young immigrants, if 67 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: you will, young digital immigrant, digital migrant. So so what 68 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: has that meant for you? To have such early, intense 69 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: and regular access to this new world formerly new world? 70 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: And it's time? I was motivated by a open research 71 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: questions why do people who have never met each other 72 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 1: trust each other so quickly online? It's a phenomena called 73 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: swift trust. Of course, in the more antisocial coiners of 74 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: social media, it also means swift distrust. People come to 75 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: hate each other very intensely. Yes, we do. How does 76 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: that come about? I was very much motivated by that question, 77 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: so I found it a startup A year after I 78 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: dropped out and become a kind of serial entrepreneur and 79 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: explored through various ways. My first startup was the Taiwanese 80 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: equivalent of eBay, and later on moved to found many 81 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: other companies and all explored how to get people trust 82 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: each other reasonably online instead of on the spaces where 83 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: it's more antisocial that that's been my research topic for 84 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: the past twenty five years. I guess what are your 85 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: conclusions right now about the answer to that question, Well, 86 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: it needs to be fast, fair, and fun simultaneously. If 87 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: a space is fast in getting people's ideas into collective intelligence, 88 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: if the common good the shared value is derived quickly 89 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: in a fair fashion. And finally, if for each minute 90 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: of participation people feel there's an intrinsic fun in it, 91 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: then the phosphere fun ensures approse social interaction online fast, fair, 92 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: and fun. They all start with F, so there's like 93 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: a poetry to it. Like it the fun part. For example, 94 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: we apply to our counter disinformation strategy and time when 95 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: they call it humor over a rumor, Oh oh, I 96 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: like that one. UM. Early in your career, you were 97 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: part of the formation of something known as GOV zero. 98 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: What was GOV zero and why was it needed? So 99 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: GO zero was and still is. UM this idea of 100 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: forking the government. Now fork in free software means taking something, 101 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: not hitting it off, but taking it to a different direction, 102 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: with the hope, of course, that one day it's merged 103 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: back in. So for all the government websites in taide 104 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: one something that g o V that ke w oh yeah, 105 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: that gov websites. Yeah right. The zero folks just built 106 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: parallel shadow government websites. So for each digital service that 107 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: the people doesn't quite like, into the protesting they demonstrate 108 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: by changing oh to a zero in the browser bar, 109 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: and you get into the shadow government, which is more fast, 110 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: fair and fun. Okay, I want to play that back 111 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: and make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Everyone listening 112 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: to this, we understand the concept of a government website 113 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: at that geo V. As you mentioned, they're not always 114 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: the greatest websites that many of us have experienced, So 115 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: go zero with you all. Initially we're doing was building 116 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: that zero websites, you know, that were mirror versions of 117 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: these government websites, offering the same information and services, but better, faster, fairer, 118 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: and more fun. That's exactly right. So for example, last February, 119 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: we were rationing out medical great masks. We all remember 120 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: the mask rationing. Yes, that's right, And and there's there's 121 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: a government website that tallies the availability of masks in 122 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: each and every pharmacy. Now, the equivalent of zero website 123 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: is an interactive map where you can see very quickly 124 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: which pharmacy near your residents still have some instack. And 125 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: as you queue in line, there's also chatbots voice assistance 126 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: that would ensure this fair distribution of masks. And it 127 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: is of course more fun. And this entire effort, this 128 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: this civic hacking effort with all volunteer that's right, Uh, 129 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: the volunteers. The number in like tens of thousands. And 130 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: once people think of something that the government isn't doing 131 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: very well, instead of protesting, we just do a demonstration 132 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: as a demo, like showing everyone that hey, this could 133 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: be done this much better. That's okay. That's a novel, 134 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: a creative and hyper useful form of activism where you 135 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: just you show them up and you do it better. 136 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: I want to know how you got into politics. A 137 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: big moment for you was the Sunflower Revolution. Right, several 138 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: hundred Taiwanese students are still occupying the island's parliament. They're 139 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: protesting against a wide ranging trade deal signed between the 140 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: Taiwanese government and China. A much seventies. One single congressman declare, 141 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: without anything, liberation. We've seen thirty seconds now don't let 142 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: the name Sunflower Revolution fool you. The path to a 143 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: digital democracy wasn't easy. As is often the case, big 144 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: change takes an upright in March, a group of students 145 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: climbed over the fence and occupied Taiwan's equivalent of the U. S. 146 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: Capitol building. Now, before your mind goes there is not 147 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: what you think. They didn't have guns. They had ethernet 148 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: cads and a plan to talk and be hurt students 149 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:30,239 Speaker 1: far from you know, violently protesting. They occupied the Parliament's 150 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: t Terrian seat and started to delibrates the C S 151 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: S T A to trade agreement line by line with 152 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: anyone who cared to show up. Yeah, they were literally 153 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: reading through parliamentary decisions line by line in hopes of 154 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: finding consensus. But law enforcement they didn't see it that way. 155 00:10:52,760 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: M M. Their solution radical transparency. Audrey live stream the 156 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: occupation to the streets of Taipei for the public to witness, 157 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: so that people can see before their own eyes on 158 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: a large projection screen outside the street. Was actually happening 159 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: was a deliberation led by citizens within the parliament. So 160 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: there's no room for rumor to grab. Had we not 161 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: wired up the streets around the parliament. There will be 162 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: cols because people will believe in for example, the rumors 163 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: about the students. We've seen the parliament was being attacked. 164 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of people who want to rush the 165 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: police because they falsely believed that the students were in addenda. 166 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: But because we weard it up sufficiently quickly, people can 167 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: check that it's actually not what's happening. This moment was 168 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: basically analog of zero. Instead of a shadow website, they 169 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: created a whole shadow parliament, showing the politicians in their 170 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: own house how it's done. And they did this day 171 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: in and day out, working to come up with their 172 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: own rough consensus on each issue, including the trade agreement. Then, 173 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: after three weeks of occupation, Parliament agreed to provide oversight 174 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: for trade deals with China and the occupation ended. But 175 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: the movement didn't stop there. In fact, many leaders in 176 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: government got on board. Two years later, the election outsted 177 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: the ruling party and made history by electing the first 178 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: female president sigh England. The government realized they had to 179 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: listen to the people, and who did they turn to? 180 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: Audrey Tom. This led to her role as Taiwan's first 181 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: Digital Minister at just thirty five years old, opening the 182 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: doors of Parliament to the hackers, the civic hackers, the 183 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: civic hackers. That's a very important acknowledges. Yes, not all hackers, 184 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: civic hackers. After the break of poetry reading by Minister Tongue, Yes, poetry. 185 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: You're not just a minister in department. You're the digital minister. 186 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: What does that job mean? And was there a digital 187 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: minister before you? No, I'm the first digital minister. I 188 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: wrote my own job description. Can you share your I 189 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: think I've read some of this job description, but can 190 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: you share your job description with me? Sure it's pinned 191 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: on my Twitter actually, so I'll just read it. When 192 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: we see the Internet of things, let's make it an 193 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: internet of bees. We see virtual reality, let's make it 194 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make 195 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let's make 196 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: it about human experience. And whenever we hear that the 197 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: singularity is, let us always remember the plurality is here. 198 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: That's poetry, it is, I mean, politician, you're just call 199 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: yourself a poetician. You know you are full of innovations 200 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: and surprises. Minister One of the things that I've heard 201 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: about and the most excited to spend our time on 202 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: today is V Taiwan. Can you define what V Taiwan 203 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: is and how it's used in your society. V Taiwan 204 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: was actually the work of Meat as civic hacker UM 205 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: and I became Digital Minister around two years after which 206 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: so during those two years, for example, we worked on 207 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: a way to get people's voices where people can write 208 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: their own nuanced ideas about emerging issues like at the 209 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: time Uber. When Uber first came to Taiwan, they work 210 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: with drivers with no professional license called sharing economy, and 211 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: this of course incited many texts chriver to start the protest, 212 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: and instead of people just shouting at each other like 213 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: a showdown, we built a space called polish through Echaiwan 214 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: project where people can say I care about insurance and 215 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: up voted and downloaded each other, but with no reply button, 216 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: and then the rough consensus, just like in the Sunflower movement, 217 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: end up getting ratified. So Uber is now a legal 218 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: taxi company in Taiwan. You're describing an online community platform 219 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: where people are sharing their opinions, their thoughts, their feedback 220 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: or public services sometimes or private services like Uber, but 221 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: you're using terms like rough consensus. And I experience a 222 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: platform that lets me share my opinions about all kinds 223 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: of things. It's called Twitter, it's called Facebook, but the 224 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: word consensus never comes to mind. So can you talk 225 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: to me about how the Taiwan, in doing this surveying 226 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: of the public and collecting all kinds of input, doesn't 227 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: descend into a Twitter or Facebook like disaster zone. Well, 228 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, there's no reply button, right, no reply 229 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: button that'll do it? Okay, Yeah, that that's that's really 230 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: d D trick um Impolis, which you can check out, 231 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: is a free software tool instead of the reply button. Uh, 232 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: there's a vote down vote, and there's this visualization. Don't worry. 233 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: I know this is a podcast and you can't see 234 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: the visualization's Audrey talking about. So I'm gonna help you. 235 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: V Taiwan uses something called quadratic voting to build rough consensus. 236 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: Think of two axes, and X that runs horizontally and 237 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: a Y that runs vertically. Yeah, I'm taking you back 238 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: to middle school. The X axis is your yea or nay, 239 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,239 Speaker 1: and the y is how strongly you feel about your yea, 240 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: your name. So Let's say your town is voting on 241 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: a citywide compost collection measure. On one end of your 242 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:34,959 Speaker 1: X axis would be a yes. Compost on the other end, Nope, 243 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: I ain't composting. But it doesn't stop there because the 244 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: Y axis gauges how strong do you feel about those votes. 245 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: Maybe you plan to vote no because you don't know 246 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: that much about composting, but you heard it might stink 247 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: up the city. You'd probably fall somewhere in the middle 248 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: of the Y axis. The same could be said for 249 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: someone who's voting yes. They don't know much, but they 250 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: hear it's quote unquote good for the environment, they too 251 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: would fall some where in the middle of the Y axes. 252 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: Once again, it doesn't stop there because users can continue 253 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: to submit statements on composting, and the more you participate 254 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: by up or down voting those statements, the more refined 255 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: your placement gets within this grid. So composting will take 256 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: the equivalent of one million cars off the road that 257 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: might lead to an up vote, or the budget will 258 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: come out of the parks department that could lead to 259 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: a down vote. The point is, as users start to 260 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: form opinions on composting, wherever you fall on these scales, 261 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: you get placed within one of the four quadrants, and 262 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: as the votes tally up, you start to see clusters 263 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: of like minded people, clusters that would be invisible to 264 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: you in a purely binary guest no world. And that's 265 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: where the rough consensus begins to form. This moment brought 266 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: to you by Edge of Tune day, You're welcome. So 267 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: it became a challenge, a game to find the things 268 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: that could convince people at the other aisle, and people 269 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: managed to agree on so after three weeks or so 270 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: of unlike deliberation, we would end up always with this 271 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: picture where people agree to disagree on a few ideological 272 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: things like whether Ubert qualified as sharing economy or just 273 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: give economy, But for most of the ideas, most people 274 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: agree actually with most of their neighbors. It's just a 275 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: more antisocial corner of social media or mainstream media does 276 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: not report those consensus around registration, insurance, not undercutting exist meters, 277 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: and so on. I've heard many social scientists say that 278 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: we actually agree a lot more than we know, and 279 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: it sounds like you've got a system which visualizes that. 280 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: It shows us how close we are to our neighbors, 281 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: even if they're not our physical neighbors. Is it fair 282 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: to say you've kind of gamified consensus building. Yes, it's fair. 283 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: And I would also say that people compete to get 284 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: other people to agree to them, not by posting compromises, 285 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: but posting innovations like new ideas that would unify people 286 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: previously of different aisles. But if people keep shouting at 287 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: each other on the ideological points and there's no remaining 288 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: bandwidth to innovate like that, If the government is faced 289 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: with one hundred decisions and kind of a random easy 290 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: number legislative policy regulatory for how many of them are 291 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: you using v Taiwan two be open to citizen input. 292 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: So the answer is all the petitions, all the regulations, 293 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: all the budget items are up for public commentary and debate. 294 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: After I moved into the cabinet as the Digital Minister, Vita, 295 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: I want kind of get merged back into the governments 296 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: and we call it Join Join the g O v 297 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: the t W. We also have a petition side like 298 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: we the People, where people can post new ideas. Instead 299 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: of waiting for the government to propose, people can propose 300 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: their own ideas, like changing the time zone of Taiwan 301 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: or banning plastic straws for bubble sees takeouts, which are 302 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: a real petitions. Uh. And then um, they get the 303 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: ministry of point by point answer if they get five 304 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: joining signature and and how you can since my um, surprise, 305 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: my incredulity even a little bit, How seriously do people 306 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: who work in government take all this beautiful visualized consensus 307 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: of the people who don't work in government. Is it 308 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: just like, oh, that's cute, the public wants something anyway, 309 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what I want to do? Or is 310 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: there accountability to follow through on these public consensus conclusions? Well, 311 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: if the petition did not get five thousand signatures, then 312 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: often it gets ignored. That's of course true, because it 313 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: means it more or less serves only a handful of people, 314 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: and these people have not yet articulated the common purpose. 315 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: So the majority of petitions did not meet five thousands thresholds. 316 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: But after it meets the five thousand threshold, there is 317 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: regulatory level commitment from each minister that they will send 318 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: a team what we call participation officers or pos, and 319 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: around a hundred of these people in each ministry. They 320 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: are legally bound to answer it in the point by 321 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: point fashion. And if this spuns across different ministries or 322 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: could only be solved in the inter agency way, then 323 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: I personally have most collaborative meetings twice amount to get 324 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: those ideas from the civil society that benefits more than 325 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: one ministry, because a single ministry cannot promise to answer 326 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: them all. What type of regulation or rule or government action? 327 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: More broadly are you most proud of or excited about? 328 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: That is the product of a v Taiwan process. One 329 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: of the earlier successes is, of course the ratification of 330 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: UBER and later on extending that to a more general 331 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: platform economic principle. And there's also many environment related issues 332 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: like banning plastic strolls from take how the public say 333 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: that's actually something that's ratified And the petitioner was I 334 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: think not even eighteen, just turned seventeen when she petitioned that. 335 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: How do you make sure that a system like this 336 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: is it gamed or abused? Someone just gets a bunch 337 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: of bots or a bunch of their friends too jack 338 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: up the activity on a particular petition point to make 339 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: sure it gets taken seriously, quote unquote, First of all, 340 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: one has to register using the SMS number if someone 341 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: try to get five thousand SIM cards, they will get 342 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: noticed by the NIM only launching folks very quickly. So 343 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: I'm not worried about that. And I imagine you know 344 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: those people. Yeah, I do have those people, that's right. 345 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: So each person, of course participate using the SMS number, 346 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: but they can to student names as so the petitioner, 347 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: the young one that's this plastic straw banding. We only 348 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: knew her as I love elephants and elephants love me 349 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: for a very long time until she decided to show up. 350 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: This is killing me. This is amazing. Um. What do 351 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: you think v Taiwan has done for the relationship of 352 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: the Taiwanese people to each other and to their government. Yeah, 353 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: I believe that this idea of social innovation. Previously, people think, 354 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: oh they can join this community in their neighborhoods and 355 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: to maybe redesign the park together or things like that. 356 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: But I guess joint platform show that people who care 357 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: about the same thing can also get this neighborhood's relationship 358 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: very quickly online and act in a way that they 359 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: would on the physical town hall. We have this digital 360 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: public infrastructure that functions the same as the town hall 361 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: so that they're not forced to deliberate about important civic 362 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: topics in the digital equivalent of nightclubs like Facebook. You 363 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: just call Facebook and nightclub. This is just amazing. It's amazing. Um, 364 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how many future forward looking innovations you 365 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: could put into one person into one position, but you were, 366 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: you were going for some kind of metal, some kind 367 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: of gold medal for maximum innovation in civics and people 368 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: powered government. Uh. We we got blockchain up in here 369 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: now with the theory, and we got quadratic voting, We've 370 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: got participatory budgeting, civic hacking. This is like the mecca 371 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: of of innovation and government services. But I also I'm 372 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: trying to understand how within Taiwan do you have a 373 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: sense for what share of the public is engaged in 374 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: this new digitally enabled form of self governing. I believe 375 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: most of the people are aware that they can actually 376 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: set agenda for the ministry level decisions around pandemic prevention, 377 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: especially just by picking up the phone. So a lot 378 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: majority of people, I would say tens of millions of people, 379 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: because our ENTI bearer is really low. If you pick 380 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: up your phone and call it this toll free number 381 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: one night you too, and speak your mind about how 382 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: you would like our counter epidemic effort to get better, 383 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: and a sympathetic listener from the call center records that 384 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: and write it up, and the next day on the 385 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: two PM press conference, your idea may be implemented very 386 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: quickly on this live stream because we've lowered the participation threshold, 387 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: and the phone lines just flooded with like foul language 388 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: and hates because I'm just trying to imagine it's deployed 389 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: in the US, and I don't hear thoughtful rants, you 390 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: know people. I just see people screaming falsehoods into their 391 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: phone all day. Yeah, and that's because of the frustration 392 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: of not getting properly listened to. Right, it's venting, uh, 393 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: this previous frustration. But because there's more than two million 394 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: cars last year alone, we take them very seriously. Right 395 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: at last April, there was a young boy that calls saying, hey, 396 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: you're rationing out mass But all I got was pink 397 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: ones and all the boys in my class got navy blue. 398 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: Once I don't want to wear pink to school, I 399 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: refused to go to school. Do something about it. And 400 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: then the very next day on two p M press conference, 401 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: all the medical officers, including Ministruction were Pink and Mstr Chin. 402 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: That helps. Mr even said Pink Panther was my childhood hero. 403 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: So so the boy became the most employing his class 404 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: for oh, he has the color that the heroes were, 405 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: and the heroes hero it is there and and our 406 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: the idea that I could call and leave a voicemail 407 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: and know that I was heard because a pretty high 408 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: ranking government official. In fact, many the next day in 409 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: this case are referencing my message. Do you have have 410 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: some very widely deployed natural language processing running too? Makes 411 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: sense of all this audio not just the texting and 412 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: the typing I get it's already kind of a machine readable, 413 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: but just a bunch of audio files as well. How 414 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: are you processing that? And very large call center and 415 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: it's not voicemail. Actually I think more than nine of 416 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: them get into a sympathetic listener. So um, it's like 417 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: a human being a human being professional and listening and 418 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: answering in real time, okay, And we work on the 419 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: assistant to support them like frequently ask questions and so on. 420 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: By the end of the day, is that people who 421 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: want to contribute to the society. Many volunteers actually working 422 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: in these call sentens. Okay, okay, this is Um. I 423 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: I don't know whether I'm very proud of what you're 424 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: doing in Taiwan or just exceedingly disappointed at what we're 425 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: not doing in the state. The fact that I'm responding 426 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: with such shock and awe and your delivery is just 427 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: the calmest thing, like like it's natural, of course. Yeah, 428 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: we're just staff, sympathetic people on phone lines for our 429 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: citizens to talk like. I can't even finish saying that 430 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: without laughing. Again. Congratulations, minister, Um. Can you tell me 431 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: about presidential Hackathan? Sure? And I'm aware that we're in 432 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: the future. Um, thank you for acknowledging that I'm not 433 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: entirely on another planet, just in a different time zone. 434 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: That's right, we're time zone travelers. So yeah. The presidential 435 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: Every year, the president gave trophies to five teams, each 436 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: one working on the sort of good zero like civic 437 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: innovation for three months and through quadratic voting, Uh, they 438 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: proved that their ideas has marriage in a smaller region. 439 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: Helemeta Sin for example, using a app to motivate people 440 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: instead of buying new plastic bottles using existing bortos to 441 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: get free refills from the local community to reduce common footprint. 442 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: East Monscale experiments, once they received the trophy from the President, 443 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: certainly become presidential promises, so I, like any executive agenda, 444 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: must be implemented within the presidential term. For example, readd 445 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: our entire universal healthcare system which is pretty to begin with, 446 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: to allow cure code helen medicine, which is very useful 447 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: not just during the pandemic, but also for the remote islands, 448 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: indigenous places and so one and all thanks to a 449 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: small scale experiment by a very remote island which suffer 450 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: a helicopter crash and decided to innovate. If you've been 451 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: running the hakathon for four years and there are five winners, 452 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: that's twenty winning ideas. That's right. How many of those 453 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: twenty have actually been implemented by the president or other 454 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: parts of the government. UM I believe nineteen are implemented 455 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: right now. And the other one because it requires collaboration 456 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: with the anti money laundering people. It's a mission learning 457 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: algorithm to preemptively, like Minority Report, identify money laundering activities 458 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: that still in the works. Are there people who are 459 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: opposed to what you're doing with within Taiwanese society? Are 460 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: there folks like this, we don't want this, We don't 461 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: want the computers use this way, This is too much 462 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: for government? Like is there resistance to whatso far sounds 463 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: like a very happy, very positive, very effective experience. In 464 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: a sense, we are the resistance so um to to 465 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: answer a question directly, there are people who initially feel 466 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: threatened by the vito it's use of deliberative democracy, and 467 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: they are the professional representatives in the parliament or city council. 468 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: They rightfully feel excluded from this crowd law agenda setting thing, 469 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: and kind of fear that it will create populism to 470 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: take their well deliberated norms away and just pass whatever 471 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: the majority of people seems happy with and destroy democracy 472 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: and things like that. So it was a real fear 473 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: in twenty four seine. But then after twenty sixteen, which 474 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: I became the Digital Ministry, introduced those platforms, they start 475 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: to see that we're not taking over the legislative power. 476 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: What we're doing is essentially doing additional research and development 477 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: before something that's ratified. What we've done is to get 478 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: people's real feelings which cannot all get passed through the 479 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: parliament to get people with the real feelings and needs 480 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: and requirements and want to also join as co creators 481 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: to propose solution by at the end of the day, 482 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: the allocation of budget resources, the presidential mandates and so on, 483 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: these remain intact and democratically accountable. So in design thinking terms, 484 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 1: we take care of the defined and the discovery part 485 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: the first diamond, but the development and the delivery are 486 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: still in the representative democracy. We have a similar process 487 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: here in the US. It doesn't involve as much technology. 488 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: It's a group of people called lobbyists and they figure 489 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: out what the legislators are supposed to do. It doesn't 490 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: always match the will of the people on the ground, 491 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: but it's probably just some bugs in the code and 492 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: we're working it out. I'm sure we'll be as representative 493 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: as Taiwan sometime in the near future. It's the great 494 00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: American experiment. Now I know it doesn't sound like it, 495 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: but I can confirm that we do indeed live on 496 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: the same planet when we come back. We talked about 497 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: Audrey's future outlook on the time when the government and 498 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: how this can hopefully be applied to the United States. 499 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, where do you see Taiwan's government in twenty years, Um, 500 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: it will be higher, I guess, stronger, faster together, higher 501 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 1: by about sixty centimeters. Um. It's a joke because towns 502 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: caught between the Eurasian plate and the Philippines sea plate 503 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: on the signs, and we got a lot of earthquakes 504 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: when they bumped together. But through yeah, I wasn't. I 505 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: was like, I got a rising sea levels jokes. It's 506 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: rising plate tectonics joke. So it's rising faster than sea 507 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 1: levels at this moment anyway. So yeah, but but those 508 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: earthquakes um is metaphoric. Right. We're caught between very different 509 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: ideologies UM. For example, the privacy and personal data protection. 510 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: We've got people who strongly believe in a more civiliance 511 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: capitalism ideas of using data and it's called the US style. 512 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: But there's also a sizable chunk who remember and believes 513 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: in the authority Hearian days in Taiwan, who believe in 514 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: a more state controlled, state sponsored way of data use 515 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: and so on. So we have to endure those ideological 516 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: earthquakes and always innovate. For example, merriage equality, I think 517 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: we're still the only Asian jurisdiction that implemented merriage quality. 518 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: We use the joint platform, among other methods, to get 519 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: people's collaborative preferences into a new invention where when two 520 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: same sex people wed, they only wed as individuals, but 521 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: their families don't wet. There's no kinship relation. And this 522 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: innovation UH is felt as good enough for everyone. So 523 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: after twenty yes, after many such innovations at the top 524 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: of Taiwan the Yushan Mountain, which grows by three sentimentaries 525 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: every year, I guess we'll just keep growing and pointing 526 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: sat work. Where do you see UH the U S 527 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: government In twenty years, I guess the great American experiment 528 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: of reinventing democracy digitally will will catch up. I mean, 529 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: there really is no reason why people have to viciously 530 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: attack each other online. It's not a function of the 531 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: people or the water, is the function of the space. UH. 532 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: In design terms, this is UH an anti social design 533 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: or pro social design. So once people get into this 534 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: um habit of posting online, I guess people will be 535 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: able to make the difference between the digital equivalent of 536 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: town halls, the public infrastructure that I've just mentioned, which 537 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: in TWI sixteen, for the first time in Taiwan's history, 538 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: is classified as infrastructure budget. And I understand that the 539 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: US to doing something very similar at this very moment, 540 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: and people would not feel natural anymore to have pacivic 541 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,760 Speaker 1: discussion in the digital nightclubs with you know, people shouting 542 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: to get heard and smoke field rooms with toxic drinks 543 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: and private bouncers. Toxic drinks and private bouncers. Again, the 544 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: best description of Facebook I've ever heard. This idea of 545 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: rough consensus. To me, it feels I like it because 546 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: it's ambitious with humility, right, you know, I think a 547 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: lot of folks think we want everybody to agree with 548 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: each other. Will never get that, so why bother and 549 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: the good enough nature of the consensus. We're in desperate 550 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: need of even rough consensus here in the US we 551 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: have a very big political divide. Are there things you 552 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: think that our political system can learn from what you've 553 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: learned in the Timeanese political systems? There was a police 554 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: conversation of virtual town hall in Bowling Green, Kentucky a 555 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: couple of years ago Bowling Green, Kentucky. Yes, and regardless 556 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: of which party they identify, with everyone thinks that we 557 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: should put the arts into science, technology, engineering, and maths 558 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: instead of stand let's make esteem. That's something people agree on. 559 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: There should be more broadband vendor choices for a better service, 560 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: and so on. So look, I do believe that those 561 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: ideologies help shape some of the debates. But there are 562 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: like the arts teachers or the broadband connections. There are 563 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: things that are just you know, infrastructure. There are things 564 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: that in a cultural or scientific or educational sense, that's 565 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: broadly a rough consensus. It's just that you have to 566 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 1: ask about that specifically, and then you get those little 567 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: hanging fruits. And when the mayors are the township leaders 568 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: or governors adopt those idea, it also improved their chance 569 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: of getting reelected. Mm hmm. Well, how do you think 570 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: about the the role of technology versus the role of 571 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: humans in implementing positive, useful, pro social technology to help 572 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: us govern ourselves better. I believe technologies aren't here to 573 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: connect people with other people, so which is why I 574 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: call a assistive intelligence. They play the role of my 575 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: eye class for example, which enabled me to see you better, 576 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: but my eyeglass never pops out A uncle ustible advertised 577 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: mephor ten seconds, right, that would not be aligned to 578 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: my values. I'm sure someone is designing you know, sponsored 579 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 1: glasses very soon, right, and I can fix it myself 580 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: or take it to some repaired person uh nearby. And 581 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 1: that means that it's accountable to also the person using it. 582 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: It's not locking uh in my choice of vendors, and 583 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 1: so I don't have to pay someone a million dollar 584 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: license features to fix my eye glass. So with these 585 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: important UM guarantees of assistiveness, which includes of course accountability 586 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: and alignment, it means that technologies stay customizable, which is 587 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: why it's not perfect, it's just good enough. And how 588 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: to make good enough better lines in the edges right, 589 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: and the people closest to the pain for the people 590 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: using those technologies, there must be the ultimate arbit of 591 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: how to modify those technologies. So without that, it's not 592 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: assistive intelligence anymore, it would be authoritarian intelligence. And I 593 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: think both paths are possible into some degree. Both paths 594 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: will be pursued depending on which part of the world 595 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about, even in the same time zone, yes, yes, 596 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: even in the same time zone. UM. We call this 597 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: show how to Citizen. We we interpret it as a verb, 598 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: as a way of being in society, as a way 599 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: of being part of a collective and contributing to that. 600 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: You are, obviously, to me, someone whose citizens hard right 601 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: and then the best possible way if you could pass 602 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:43,479 Speaker 1: on some advice, how would you define citizen as a verb? 603 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: What does it mean to do? How does it mean 604 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,959 Speaker 1: to be? Um? I'm reminded of my favorite quote from 605 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: the singer songwriter Lenna Cohen from Canada, who said in 606 00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 1: the poem and a quote ring the bells that still 607 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: can ring, forget your perfect offering. There is a crack, 608 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: a crack in everything, and that's how the light gets in. 609 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: So to citizen is to be that light Poetician Audrey 610 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: Tongue with the Leonard Cohen. Okay, okay, minister, thank you, 611 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: minister Audrey Tongue for your time, pleasure. Is there something 612 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: else I should have asked you? No, I think this 613 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,760 Speaker 1: is pretty complete, so I will add to maybe liftloin 614 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: prosper Yes, I want to let you win on a 615 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 1: little context for that interview because of Taiwan being so 616 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: far a that interview ended for me here in l 617 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: A at ten pm. And when I tell you that 618 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: I was vibrating at ten pm after that conversation. Literally 619 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,399 Speaker 1: I had to go take a walk afterwards. I don't 620 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: understand how one person can be so inspiring and also 621 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: so humble. I think what really moves me is the 622 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: idea of being able to see, to really to visualize 623 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: how I connect with someone in an affirmative way, whether 624 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: it's a friend or a complete stranger. The dopamine from 625 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: that would so far outweigh a retweet in my echo 626 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: chamber that is social media. This concept of rough consensus. 627 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 1: It's really beautiful because nothing's perfect right, nothing's one size 628 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: fits all, but there are overlaps, and in those overlaps 629 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: that's where we innovate, where we learn, and most of all, 630 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: where we get excited to come together and use our 631 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: collective power. Next week, I talked to gen Z climate 632 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: activists Jamie Markolan about where tech fits into solving climate change. Hint, 633 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: it's not what I expected from a gen Z ear. 634 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: I think that there's a danger in putting too much 635 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: faith in innovating our way out of this, Like I 636 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: feel like there also has to be some respect for 637 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:44,760 Speaker 1: the natural technologies. And now that I've returned to Earth 638 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: from Planet Audrey, it's time for some action. First, I 639 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: want you to think about your personal power. When have 640 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: you felt justified pushing against an authority in your life? 641 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: How did you do it and did you achieve your goal? 642 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: If not, why do you think no? And if so, 643 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 1: were there other unintended consequences? Next, I want you to 644 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: get informed about this idea of open government. It's all 645 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: well and good to say that government is we the people, 646 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: but what could that actually look like. One example is 647 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,720 Speaker 1: Audrey's work, so we learn more about it at Digital 648 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: Minister dot t w and if you want to go deeper, 649 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: read the book Open Democracy by Helene Landmore. It's about 650 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 1: centering ordinary citizens in the democratic process. I actually saw 651 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: Helene speak recently and she reminded me of some things 652 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: that our season two guests Astra Taylor was saying about 653 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: how ancient Greeks conscripted random people into civil service. Let's 654 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: regain some imagination about our power. Find Helene's book in 655 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: our online bookstore at bookshop dot org, slash shop slash 656 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: how do citizen in search social media for the hashtag 657 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: open government to find more related thinkers and doers helping 658 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: us govern ourselves Finally, practice sharing your voice on an 659 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: issue you care about in a public forum, not just 660 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: social media though. For example, did you know you can 661 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: comment on upcoming federal regulations at regulations dot GOVN I'm 662 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: just logging in there, like dropping what's up all over 663 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: these notice for proposed rulemaking. It's exciting, but the real 664 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: action is local. So join a participatory budgeting initiative by 665 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: searching online for participatory budgeting near me, or put your 666 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: town or state's name there. Or try attending a virtual 667 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: or live city or neighborhood council meeting and offering feedback 668 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: during the public comments section. Use your voice to influence 669 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: a public issue. Flex that power. We've got links to 670 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: all of this and more at how to citizen dot 671 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: com and follow us on Instagram at how to Citizen. 672 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: Tag us in your own posts about your participation. Thanks. 673 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: How the Citizen with barrettun Day is a production of 674 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio Podcasts and dust Light Productions. Our executive 675 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,760 Speaker 1: producers are Me, barrettun Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusuf. 676 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tamika Adams, our producer is Ali Kilts, 677 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,720 Speaker 1: and our assistant producer Sam Paulson, Stephanie Cohne is our editor, 678 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Lai as 679 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional original 680 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: music for season three from Andrew Clawson. This episode was 681 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: produced and sound designed by Ali Kilts. Special thanks to 682 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: Joel Smith from My Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at 683 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: dust Light Productions.