1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: episode is going to be a longer one part of 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: take their days from great to awesome, their expertise, and 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: any advice they might have for the rest of us. 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: So today I am delighted to welcome Juliette Shore to 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: the show. She's a professor at Boston College, the author 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: of several books, including The Overworked American and a new 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: one called Four. 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: Days a Week. So, Julie, welcome to the show. 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 3: Thank you, great to be here. 13 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Yees, So why don't you tell our listeners a little 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: bit about yourself and your work. 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: So I'm an economist originally, and I worked on issues 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: of work time. I was in the Harvard Economics department 17 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 3: when I sort of got intrigued by a sort of 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 3: theoretical error in a philosopher's book. I mean, it just 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 3: kind of a strange way to get into it, but 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 3: it got me looking at American work time, and I 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: was surprised to find that contrary to what everyone believed 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: would happen, and was happening. Americans were actually starting to 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: work more and more. So that book came out in 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties and it cataloged a couple of decades 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: of rising work time, high levels of stress, burnout, et cetera. 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: And since then I've done much more research on work 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: and work patterns, and in twenty twenty one, I was 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: invited to be the lead researcher for a path breaking 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: series of trials that ended up taking place all around 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 3: the world with companies who were giving their employees a 31 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: four day, thirty two hour work week, so not a 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: compressed with full pay, but with an attempt to try 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: and maintain their productivity. So a lot of the kinds 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 3: of things that go under the rubric of personal productivity 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 3: of course, that you work on and so forth. These 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 3: companies were trying to implement some of those ideas in 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: the workplace and the results have been phenomenal, like very 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 3: very successful, huge increases in people's well being and great 39 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 3: successes for the company. 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk. 41 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: About that successes for the company, because you know, I 42 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: have many people here who are probably individual contributors listening 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: to this. Also people who are managing companies, running companies, 44 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: who are wondering like, Okay, I can see why, you know, 45 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: your average worker might enjoy having a four day week. 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: What's in it for the organizations? 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: Like? Why were the organizations willing to try this out? 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think there's sort of two categories, and I 49 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: talk about these in the book. The founder of the 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 3: organization that ran the trials was an entrepreneur or in 51 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: New Zealand, a man named Andrew Barnes, and he tried 52 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: it at his own finance company. He called it the 53 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 3: one hundred eighty hundred, so one hundred percent of the 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 3: pay for eighty percent of the time. But he asked 55 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: his employees to all sign a contract saying they would 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: get one hundred percent of their work done in those 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: four days. He believed there was a lot of slack 58 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: in his organization, and many of the companies are in 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 3: that model. So what's in it for them is they're 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: able to maintain their productivity or maybe even increase it. 61 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 3: And we can get into a bit more about how 62 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: that happens. I think a key point of this is 63 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 3: although individuals do make changes in how they do things, 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 3: there's also a full organizational effort. I mean, often by 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: teams sometimes by the whole group together, and you know, 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: depending on size of organizations, to figure out what they're 67 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: doing that isn't efficient, you know, where they're wasting time, 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: where they putting a lot of time into low value activities, 69 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: et cetera. And so the organization maintains its productivity, but 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: it gets big well being impacts for its employees. And 71 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: that has multiple impacts. One is that often they report 72 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: better quality of work because people are rested, they're not 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 3: burning out, they are looking forward to coming to work 74 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 3: on Monday morning. Many of them take Fridays off, they 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: don't get the Sunday scaries, et cetera. So there's that 76 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: piece of it, but that also leads to the other 77 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: interesting phenomenon that I call the one hundred eighty eighties. 78 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: One hundred percent of the pay eighty percent of the work. 79 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 3: We're not asking you to do anything more. We're not 80 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: asking you to get more efficient. Why you're already crazy efficient. 81 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 3: You are a nurse in a hospital with no wasted time. 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: You're the chef ft a restaurant who's just working a 83 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: really long day and you've already optimized out anything time wasting. 84 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 3: But you're burned out and so you just need a 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: day off to recharge. And so for those companies or organizations, 86 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 3: they're stopping the bleeding of the burnout, the resignations, et cetera. So, 87 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: for example, with some of the nurses in our studies, 88 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 3: they rescinded resignation letters when they heard they were going 89 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 3: to get a four day week. And for these people 90 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: it's just life changing because they're kind of on the edge. 91 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: So it's a paradox I argue because it's the low 92 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 3: intensity organizations that could actually you know, they got a 93 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 3: lot of slack there and they're really high intensity that 94 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 3: at the beginning are sort of the early adopters here 95 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 3: where it's very easy to see how they might benefit. 96 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, especially on that latter one, because what I 97 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: think a lot of people don't understand is the toll 98 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: that turnover takes on productivity. That you know, if you 99 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: have your five member team running at full tilt, that's great, 100 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 2: but when one of them leaves, you are suddenly not 101 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: running at full tilt until you can you know, hire replacement, 102 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: train that person. You know, for the first however much 103 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: time they are not you know, operating at where that 104 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: person was who left and you're also encouraging management costs 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: in training the person. 106 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: And so from an organizational perspective, if you. 107 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: Can cut that at all, you boost productivity even if 108 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: the average person is working fewer hours. 109 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: Is that's what I'm hearing you say? 110 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Laura, I mean that is such an important point. 111 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 3: So I have a sort of deep dive into a 112 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: company where that was so interesting what happened. And the 113 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: book is both a lot of you know, kind of 114 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 3: statistical findings, but also those deep dives into individual companies 115 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: that represent different ways, strategies, experiences. So this one is 116 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: a global marketing company and advertising and marketing. They were 117 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: the person who ran the trial, the manager saying like 118 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: thirty to forty percent turnover in that industry. And so 119 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 3: what she figured out she did a lot of calculations 120 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: with their accounting people to figure out how much it costs. 121 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: But when she went the company, which is a lot, 122 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: and she said on her team, she had a fifty 123 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: seven person team, they're constantly onboarding, hiring, training, et cetera. 124 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: And when she put in the four day week, she 125 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: went to zero resignations, zero turnover. Okay, And that we 126 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: hear that from quite a few of our companies. And 127 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: then what was so fascinating about it was she began 128 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: to figure out, I can monetize this in my contracts. 129 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: So she put in, we get a bonus if no 130 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: one leaves the team, and the clients just couldn't believe 131 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: it because like table, yeah, and sure enough, and so 132 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's really I mean there's very cold, hard 133 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: cash here sitting on the table, lying on the lying 134 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 3: on the table, if you will, if you can stop 135 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 3: that those resignations in those high turnover places, and that's 136 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 3: why we're hearing from like social service agencies, restaurants, healthcare. 137 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: I mean, these are many of the places which have 138 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: had these big turnover problems in recent years. And you know, 139 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 3: of course advertising and marketing, there's a lot of a 140 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: lot of those kinds of companies in our sample. 141 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break 142 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: and then I will be back with more from Juliette Shore. Well, 143 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Juliette Shore, who's the author 144 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: of the new book Four Days a Week, looking at 145 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: the results of a broad experiment with a number of 146 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: organizations that experimented with a four day work week. So 147 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,359 Speaker 2: Julie we were talking about very you know, intensely structured organizations. 148 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: We're reducing turnover had a positive benefit. Now we mentioned 149 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: that there's also some you know, organizations that have a 150 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: fair amount. 151 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: Of slack in how people are working. 152 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: And I'm sure you and I have both seen the 153 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: time diaries of people at some organizations. Who are you know, 154 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: in meetings all day or who are you know, switching 155 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: applications frequently? You know as they're constantly interrupted? You know, 156 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: what's going on in those organizations and how are they 157 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: sort of thinking about becoming more productive instead of just 158 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: assuming that there's kind of an infinite number. 159 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: Of hours that you can you can put out a task. 160 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's probably the more common kind of organization 161 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 3: among the hundreds that we have been studying. So for them, 162 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: I would say ground zero has been meetings, and that's 163 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,359 Speaker 3: a kind of well known problem in these kinds of organizations. 164 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: So when a company joins one of these trials, there's 165 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: a they're sort of groups of companies doing it together 166 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 3: and they do two months of onboarding and what we 167 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: call work reorganization where we figure out with them, they 168 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 3: go through these trainings and so on for they get 169 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 3: peer mentors people who have done it before figure out 170 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: where they're wasting time. So meetings is a key place, 171 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: and a lot of them make their meetings more productive. 172 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: They reduce their numbers of meetings, and there's a you know, 173 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: there's like a huge amount of literature now on meetings 174 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: and sort of how they're affecting productivity in many organizations. 175 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: The flip side of that is the focus time. Because 176 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: of that distraction problem, so many of these organizations also 177 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: set times in the day when people will have focused 178 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: time and they shouldn't be bothered and so forth, and 179 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 3: there will be no meetings, et cetera. Other people can 180 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: do that sort of individually, but then there are other 181 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 3: sorts of things that they do to figure out how 182 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: to make it work. So in some of the manufacturing companies, 183 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 3: they do like a process engineering exercise where they go 184 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 3: through every stage of their process and figure out where 185 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 3: they wasting time. Where could they slot one thing one 186 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 3: task into a dead time with another task. If they 187 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: you know the brewery that I talk about in the book, 188 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: they have many different tasks going on it once. But 189 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: the same thing can be done in way call organizations 190 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 3: where you sort of follow the chain of decision making 191 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 3: or you follow you know, a form going through all 192 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: the steps, and so they do those sorts of things. 193 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 3: One interesting one at Kickstarter, which was the lead company 194 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 3: in our first US trial, was that they realized the 195 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: leadership team was not giving clear enough instructions to the programmers, 196 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: you know, when they wanted them to do something, and 197 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 3: they would get stuck or go down the wrong fork 198 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: for a while. So leadership team figured out how it 199 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: could make its intentions clearer to itself to begin with, 200 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 3: and then give better instructions to the programming teams and 201 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 3: then kind of just let them run with things. One 202 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 3: other thing really important in certain kinds of businesses. We 203 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 3: had a broadband provider that got a massive new contract 204 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: at the same time that they went to the four 205 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: day week, and we did in addition to all the 206 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 3: surveying we did before and after interviews with this group, 207 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 3: and when we came back to them, we were like, well, 208 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: how did you make it work? You had this huge 209 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: influx of business and mostly it was like dealing with 210 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 3: customer service problems, connecting and so forth. And what they 211 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 3: explained was, well, they finally got serious about documentation. They said, 212 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: first of all, no, the four day week is what 213 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: made it viable. Otherwise everybody would have burned out. But 214 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 3: they got serious about documentation something. And this is a 215 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 3: more general point, like if you don't put the time 216 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 3: in upfront to save you time later, you're going to 217 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 3: get overloaded. And so you know, their people had previously 218 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: been reinventing the wheel with customer service, but now they documented. 219 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: And that's a more general point to which I think 220 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: many of us, you know, don't do it, which is 221 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: you get some new piece of software, equipment, whatever, you 222 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 3: don't spend the time at the beginning learning how to 223 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: make it more efficient for you because you just want 224 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 3: to get going. And I call it the forcing mechanism 225 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: of the four day week because it forces you to 226 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 3: get more efficient earlier on. 227 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 228 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: Well, just in general, I think a lot of people 229 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: and probably organizations too, just don't treat time as valuable. 230 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: And it's one thing. 231 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: If you're paying somebody by the hour, because then obviously 232 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: you know how many hours they are working and there's 233 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: a you know, natural accountability on that. But for people 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 2: who aren't, there just isn't that accountability. It is why 235 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: you see one of these things. But with that I 236 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: think you mentioned in the book that it was harder 237 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: for managers though to adopt this sort of. 238 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: Schedule, especially the scene, especially seniors. Yes, so what we 239 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: heard a bit more from them is more some of 240 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: them took that day off and that was it. So 241 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to make it seem like none of 242 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: them were successful with this, but what some of them 243 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: would do is use it a little bit as a 244 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: catch up day because nobody else was working. So this 245 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 3: is another key thing. 246 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: So you don't have any meetings. 247 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: You don't have any meetings, and you don't have people 248 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 3: giving you work. And that's also an important principle when 249 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: companies think about how are you going to do this? 250 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 3: Is everybody going to be off on the same day, 251 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: because that's one way of making sure that people don't 252 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: just get overloaded when they come back because their coworkers 253 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: were putting more on their plate. They use it as 254 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: a catch up day, or they you know, they work 255 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: a little bit on that day. They can't take it 256 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 3: totally off. But part of what that means is they 257 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: don't have to do as much work on weekends and nights, 258 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 3: so they are getting a break. It's just a little 259 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 3: bit different number one, I did. She talked to me 260 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: about how she would work from home that day and 261 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: she'd feel free to put in laundry, pick up her daughter, 262 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 3: this than that, which on a regular work from home 263 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: day she wouldn't feel she could do that. And so 264 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: it was just it was a huge blessing to them 265 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: as well, even if they didn't manage to reduce by 266 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: the full eight hours that many of their. 267 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: Co workers do. 268 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I wonder and I think you talk a 269 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: little bit about this, that there's some drifting toward this, 270 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: especially as you know, if you think about summer Fridays 271 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: or more, people are sort of working from home on Fridays, 272 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: not that they're not working. 273 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to put that out there. I'm 274 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: a big fan of working from home. 275 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: People working from home generally are working, but they're probably 276 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: is a tendency to leave a little bit earlier on 277 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: a Friday, if it's a work from home day for instance. 278 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: And we are seeing, yeah, this is great. I call 279 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 3: it the evolution of Fridays. We are seeing this showing 280 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: up in hard numbers, interesting numbers, like in finance numbers, 281 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 3: where like stock traders and other kinds of people, there's 282 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 3: less activity going on, or studies of business people responding 283 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: to surveys. And this is actually one of the interviews 284 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: of a guy a marketing the head of a marketing 285 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 3: company talk to me about how by taking Fridays off, 286 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 3: there really wasn't as much going off on Fridays anyway, 287 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 3: So Friday is no longer a sort of twenty percent 288 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: productivity day in lots of places. And then I you know, 289 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 3: I've got a lot of anecdotal stuff in there about 290 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 3: how things really have evolved to be different on Fridays, 291 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 3: and it's just it is evolving into less of a workday, 292 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: especially Friday afternoons. 293 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's I mean, there's obviously some caveats here. 294 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: I mean people are like, well, okay, four day's great, 295 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: how about three? How about two? You know, I mean 296 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: there's there's. 297 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 2: Some limits on this obviously, of how much productivity we 298 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: can wreak out of the ring out of the system. 299 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 2: And then also with that, one of the caveats being 300 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: that I imagine one of the things that makes this 301 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: extra weekday off useful is that places are open that 302 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: you could then go. I mean, one of the things 303 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: people are doing is they're doing their grocery shopping, or 304 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 2: they're going to the doctor, or they're you know, doing 305 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: those life maintenance things, which we couldn't then have every 306 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: place only open a certain limited number of days or 307 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 2: we'd lose that benefit. 308 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely. I mean there are many organizations in our 309 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: trials that are twenty four to seven organizations and they're 310 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 3: still twenty four sevens or that are five days. That 311 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: marketing person I was just talking about his company went 312 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 3: to half teams on Monday and Friday because they wanted 313 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 3: a full forty hour availability for their clients for example. 314 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: You know, another message of the book is that there 315 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: isn't a one formula for this, that each of these 316 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: companies sort of figures out what's going to work for 317 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 3: them based on their their business, their what their employees want, 318 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: you know a lot of different factors. But yeah, absolutely 319 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 3: you need to Uh, if you're an access business, good 320 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 3: chance you're going to keep that access. 321 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that people are counting on that. 322 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: We're going to take one more quick ad break and 323 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: then I will be back with more from Juliette Shore. 324 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: Well. 325 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Juliette Shore who is the 326 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: author of the new book Four Days a week. 327 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: So, Julia, we always like to. 328 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: Hear about how people manage their own personal productivity. I mean, 329 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: you're obviously, you know, leading research and writing books and 330 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 2: being a public intellectual about things like that, and I 331 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: I assume have duties at your university as well. 332 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: Do you have any routines that make you more productive? 333 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 3: It's funny you ask this, because I do. Just we 334 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: were just talking about the Friday evolving thing. I mean, 335 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 3: I often get asked when I wrote The Overworked American, 336 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 3: I was always asked how many hours a week do 337 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: you work? And at that point I was like the 338 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 3: poster child for needing a makeover by you, which was 339 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 3: I was in the office long, long hours, and many 340 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: of them were not productive. 341 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: It was okay. 342 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: The office was also my socializing place. I didn't have kids, 343 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 3: I wasn't married in those early days. So with this one, 344 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 3: of course, I get asked how many days a week 345 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: I work? And I always used to say, well, I 346 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 3: just work when I want and I don't work when 347 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: I don't feel like it, et cetera, et cetera. But 348 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: I noticed about two weeks ago someone asked me that 349 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: and I was like, you know, what Friday is evolving 350 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: away from a workday for me, so productivity. Yeah, So 351 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: I do think taking that Friday has really helped me. 352 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: I'm feeling pretty relaxed, despite you know, juggling a lot 353 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: of balls. When I am writing a book or articles, 354 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 3: I start first thing in the morning, after exercise, so 355 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: I have started a morning exercise routine. I do my 356 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 3: exercising first thing in the morning. I actually run exercise classes. 357 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 3: I'm not the teacher. I just put on the tape 358 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: and do the zoom room. But it means I have 359 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: that accountability to the other people who come. And then 360 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 3: I then I, you know, go trudge up to my 361 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 3: third floor and start writing. I do find that first 362 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: period of the day, the morning, is most productive. I 363 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 3: write until I just peter out. You know. If I'm 364 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 3: writing a book, for example, and that works really well 365 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 3: for me, I just do that. What are some of 366 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 3: my other tips? So I think those are the two 367 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 3: most important things, Like I have a dedicated place and 368 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: time for my most And you say that you made 369 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 3: that point about trying to do the hardest thing first. 370 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: I always do that. 371 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: Now with writing a book, I always start with my 372 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 3: hardest chapter and dedicated time, place, exercise routine. And then 373 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: I think also that point I started with just making 374 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 3: sure I have enough rest time and relaxation, and that 375 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: I'm not feeling like I work all the time and 376 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 3: I don't have time to do other things that I want. 377 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 3: I just I just you know, I'm lucky because I 378 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: control my own time basically, so I take as much 379 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: time non work time as I feel I want. And 380 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 3: that also makes the working so much easier because I'm 381 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: not feeling like, oh, I have to work all the time. 382 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 3: Occasionally during the semester when I'm teaching, I sometimes feel like, oh, 383 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: why am I working so much? But that's you know, 384 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 3: that's the part of my job I can't really control. 385 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: Well, that comes with the territory, So dealing with people's 386 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 2: messages and questions all the time, I am sure in 387 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: that role. Well, I always ask guests something and man, 388 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: we can talk about the things maybe that you do 389 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 2: in your non working hours. What is something you have 390 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: done recently to take a day from great to awesome? 391 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 3: The delayed Mother's Day celebration, so my favorite thing to 392 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 3: do is to take a bike ride. On a Sunday, 393 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: took a bike ride with my son, which was really wonderful, 394 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: and then went out with son and husband sadly daughters 395 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 3: on the other coast to our favorite vegetarian restaurant and 396 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 3: had an awesome meal and then watched a playoff basketball 397 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 3: game for my wonderful team that sadly lost, the Boston Celtic. 398 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: We can guess where you are, and yes, sadly, well, 399 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 2: I'm not a I'm not a Boston fan myself, but 400 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: I understand, I understand the feeling and the Sixers here 401 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: have been a long string of disappointments lately, so yeah, 402 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: it's sure, you know, oh well. 403 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: Some yere some here and what are you looking forward 404 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: to now? 405 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 3: So two big things. One is we are extending our 406 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 3: research into looking at the relationship between the four day 407 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 3: week and AI. So our hypothesis is that four day 408 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: week companies are better at adopting and using AI. There's 409 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 3: some survey evidence that suggests that might be true, and 410 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 3: we're we're going to be able to get some sort 411 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: of harder evidence about that. We now have companies all 412 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: around the world, hundreds of companies, tens of in the 413 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 3: you know, more than ten thousand employees that we can 414 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: go back to and find out what they're doing now, 415 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 3: so that's pretty exciting. And I also do a lot 416 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 3: of research on climate change and the impacts of working 417 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 3: hours on climate change and how countries or places I've 418 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: done research across the US too, that have reduced their 419 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: working hours actually also reduced their carbon emissions. So I've 420 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 3: got some new papers coming up on that too. 421 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: I guess that would make sense. 422 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if you're not driving to and 423 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 2: from work on Friday, that's at least one less time. 424 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: And then probably the you know, electronic activity that's that's 425 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: going on with that, that too fascinating. Yeah, well, the 426 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: AI thing, I mean, you know, people, there was always 427 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: the probably the idea that technology would be able to 428 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: reduce hours without reducing you know, lifestyle and product because 429 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: of the productivity statistics would still be high. I mean, 430 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: just real quick. I mean, this is it told separate topic. 431 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: But you think that that might finally be the case 432 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: with AI. 433 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 3: Well, we don't know what's going to happen. I mean, 434 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: I have a chapter in the book on AI. The 435 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 3: first Industrial Revolution had tremendous productivity enhancing machinery and technology, 436 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 3: and it led to big increases in hours of work 437 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: and with AI. I just think we could go down 438 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 3: two paths. I mean, one is we could go down 439 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: a similar path in which what companies do is they 440 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 3: just lay off lots of workers and they buy that 441 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 3: AI and they use it more intensively, and the people 442 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: they have work more intensively, and that's it took a 443 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 3: long time to reverse that upward trend of hours from 444 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: the first Industrial revolution. That could happen with AI. The alternative, 445 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: and the one I argue obviously for in the book, 446 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 3: is we could actually use technology to reduce hours of 447 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 3: work and not not just lay people off, but actually 448 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 3: share out the work more equitably and reduce hours per job, 449 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: keep more and more, you know, people in work with 450 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: incomes and meaningful lives from that work. But we're gonna 451 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 3: have to that's gonna have to be a social choice 452 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: and not just something that where the companies just see 453 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 3: the incentive. We know, Microsoft just laid off a lot 454 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: of workers. 455 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: Absolutely, so we'll see that's. 456 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 3: Going to be a really bad social outcome. 457 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: We will see how it plays out. Yeah, so we 458 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: do not know. 459 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: Well, Julia, thank you so much for joining us. Thank 460 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about 461 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 2: this or any other episode, you can always reach me 462 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 463 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 464 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: the most of our time. 465 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Before or Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, 466 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura 467 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. 468 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, 469 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.